Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Are Kemba Walker and Jerryd Bayless redundant?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Are Kemba Walker and Jerryd Bayless redundant?


    Draftexpress has us picking Kemba Walker 3rd overall. Are him and JB redundant? If so should we pass on him even if his the best available talent?
    @Chr1st1anL

  • #2
    Bayless is nowhere near a good enough player that you pass on the best player available. I am not saying I would take Kemba, I am questioning your logic. BAyless put together a string of games at the end of a crappy season, on a bad team, going against teams resting starters. He did show some promise, but there are still many, many, many questions about his future ability to run a team full time at a high level.
    Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

    Comment


    • #3
      Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      Draftexpress has us picking Kemba Walker 3rd overall. Are him and JB redundant? If so should we pass on him even if his the best available talent?
      This is an interesting question that no one has asked already. My answer would be that every good team needs two good PGs. I'm not sure Bayless is good enough to start. I think Walker has more upside.

      I agree with WJF when he says Bayless showed some promise at the end of the season in a string of games but he was up and down all year for the most part. You can't enter a game with confidence when you don't know if your PG is going to show up or not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Definitely they are. Their games are extremely similar: they get their points and their assists through relentlessly attacking the hoop. Both are very quick, scoring-oriented players. They are both very tough and spend good chunks of time at the off-guard. Both are also extremely competitive, which would make it difficult for them to play back-up to one another. They are both pretty good rebounders for their position.

        Their biggest divergence: size and clutch. Bayless has the first, Walker has the second. I think before anyone can really make up their minds about Walker, they have to know how he measures at the combine (I'm talking height). If he's 6', then all questions about his lack of height should be thrown out. It's plenty tall enough given his skill and toughness. If however he's closer to 5'10", then it starts to be a real concern. I'm not sure he's getting open the way he did at UCONN against bigger NBA guards, and scoring at the rim the way he did at UCONN against much bigger NBA centers and forwards, if he is indeed that short. Too many of his shots were closely-contested fadeaways for my liking. Yes they went in, but that's why we're even talking about him. If he misses those shots or if they're blocked/tipped, forget about it.

        For Bayless, not much new to say really. I liked what I saw when he was allowed to play his game (as opposed to trying to play more as a "pure" PG like he did for the mid-season off the bench. That he did though try to do so is encouraging to me as it shows his willingness to learn and adapt. Lots of players refuse to change). His assist numbers are actually pretty good, especially given the lack of shooters Toronto had last season (a SF who can hit the spot up 3 would have without question upped his assist total, as it would any PG's). Regardless, as a starter - that is, playing 35 minutes a game - he averaged 6.7 assists, which is good for 14th in the league. Give him that extra wing shooter and he's a candidate for top 10 (the tenth spot is occupied by D.Rose, who gets just one more assist per game than Bayless at 7.7/game). It's his defence that is the biggest concern, and he absolutely has to improve there if he wants to be a legit starter (Opp. PER of 19).

        Given the two, my preference is to stick with Bayless. I like Walker for sure, and no matter where he ends up I'll definitely be paying close attention, but I'm not convinced at all he gives you that much - if any - of an upgrade.

        Comment


        • #5
          WJF wrote: View Post
          Bayless is nowhere near a good enough player that you pass on the best player available. I am not saying I would take Kemba, I am questioning your logic. BAyless put together a string of games at the end of a crappy season, on a bad team, going against teams resting starters. He did show some promise, but there are still many, many, many questions about his future ability to run a team full time at a high level.
          Thank you. Making a case for Bayless isn't much different than making one for Jarrett Jack, except that Bayless is younger and holds more "promise".

          Comment


          • #6
            Arsenalist wrote: View Post
            Thank you. Making a case for Bayless isn't much different than making one for Jarrett Jack, except that Bayless is younger and holds more "promise".
            I somewhat disagree. While their stats may show they are similarly effective, Bayless and Jack are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to attitude, toughness, perseverance and leadership. Bayless plays with fire at all times, and turns it on when things go downhill. Jack checks out when things get tough and visibly sulks.

            And I know you said, "except that Bayless is younger and holds more 'promise,'" but I think that part is worth repeating. Bayless is a good 5 years younger than Jack. That is significantly younger. Bayless at 22 is still developing and has years to go before his prime. Jack at 27 has likely already peaked. Seems to me that's a pretty good argument in favour of sticking with Bayless, if indeed they are at this point comparable.
            Last edited by jeff_hostetler; Thu May 12, 2011, 09:36 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              With the 3rd pick? (God, him being projected so high is depressing. All of that tanking for...) Yeah, I'd rather keep Bayless. Shoot, people also say that he's had a small sample size too, but I think that it's bigger than Irving's lol.

              But I'm biased. *points to avatar*

              Comment


              • #8
                WJF wrote: View Post
                Byyless put together a string of games at the end of a crappy season, on a bad team, going against teams resting starters. He did show some promise, but there are still many, many, many questions about his future ability to run a team full time at a high level.
                In the last 10 games the Raptors played, games in which Bayless averaged 19 points, 5 assists and 1 steal while shooting 48% from the field and 42% from 3, 6 of those 10 were against playoff teams fighting for a better seed or teams fighting for a playoff spot (Chicago, Orlando, New York, Philadelphia and Milwaukee twice) non of whom rested their starters when they played. I excluded Miami, who did in fact rest their starters.

                You can make the argument that they played bad teams (Jersey, Milwaukee, Cleveland and the Clippers), but, in reality half of the NBA teams are either bad or mediocre, so playing against those teams is par for the course: everyone plays them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
                  I somewhat disagree. While their stats may show they are similarly effective, Bayless and Jack are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to attitude, toughness, perseverance and leadership. Bayless plays with fire at all times, and turns it on when things go downhill. Jack checks out when things gets tough and visibly sulks.

                  And I know you said, "except that Bayless is younger and holds more 'promise,'" but I think that part is worth repeating. Bayless is a good 5 years younger than Jack. That is significantly younger. Bayless at 22 is still developing and has years to go before his prime. Jack at 27 has likely already peaked. Seems to me that's a pretty good argument in favour of sticking with Bayless, if indeed they are at this point comparable.
                  That is fine, except the argument is not between Jack and Bayless, but between Bayless ans another potential young promising PG or upgrade. There seems to be a few fans that are willing to pencil in Bayless as the starter and are willing to pass on potentially better players. I am comfortable with Demar going forward as our 2 guard and with Ed Davis as our 4, other than that I would bump anyone out of the rotation for an upgrade. I do want Bayless to continue to grow and do well, he may very well be our starter next year, but by no means am I passing on Irving, Walker or Knight if they are the best player available at our pick to try and fill another hole. I am not saying we target a PG in the draft, nor to we reach for one either, but it they are BPA we need to take them.
                  Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    WJF wrote: View Post
                    That is fine, except the argument is not between Jack and Bayless, but between Bayless ans another potential young promising PG or upgrade. There seems to be a few fans that are willing to pencil in Bayless as the starter and are willing to pass on potentially better players. I am comfortable with Demar going forward as our 2 guard and with Ed Davis as our 4, other than that I would bump anyone out of the rotation for an upgrade. I do want Bayless to continue to grow and do well, he may very well be our starter next year, but by no means am I passing on Irving, Walker or Knight if they are the best player available at our pick to try and fill another hole. I am not saying we target a PG in the draft, nor to we reach for one either, but it they are BPA we need to take them.
                    You must have realized that I was talking about Jarret Jack because I was obviously responding to the post directly above mine...in fact I even put the quote that first discussed Jack in my post.

                    The argument in this thread, as you've pointed out, is whether or not Bayless and Walker are redundant. I've made the case that they are.

                    If it came down to Walker being the best player available when it's Toronto's turn to draft, I'd rather the Raps traded down. How's that?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You take the best player available and if that's Walker then so be it. I wouldn't say they are completely redundant either since Walker is a faster player than Bayless and Bayless is a bigger player than Walker so it's not like they are carbon copies of each other. Plus you can never have too many guys attacking the rim. I don't think we'll pick Walker anyway unless we drop a few spots but I think the two of them might be ok to play together at least at first.
                      "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                      -Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Walker also takes care of the ball far better.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Walker is inconsistent in his decision making and has below average passing skills as his turnover for every 2 assists indicates.

                          I remember the super draft of 2003 and the hype surrounding TJ Ford how he would overcome his height disadvantage with his speed, smarts and passing skills. Now we have Walker ready to overcome his weaknesses with his speed and scoring.

                          Bayless was consistently very good as a starter last year. Only 14 games but he had top five offensive numbers. I haven't heard a good reason why his success as a starter can't continue if given the opportunity.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I disagree

                            His A/T is very good.

                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            College assist to turnover ratio for last year in college:

                            John Wall: 1.625
                            Jonny Flynn: 1.97
                            Avery Bradley: 1.37
                            Derrick Rose: 1.88
                            Russell Westbrook: 1.72
                            Tyreke Evans: 1.08
                            Steph Curry: 1.5
                            Deron Williams: 2.46
                            Chris Paul: 2.23
                            Ty Lawson: 3.46

                            Walker (2.06) is ahead of good company and behind good company. No one on that list was as prolific of a scorer as Walker either with the exception of Curry who took 20 more shots in 3 less games and had another 1.5 TO per game.
                            Source: Matt52, Raptors Republic Forum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              These are the weaknesses for Walker that keep coming up everywhere you look. The first two in particular.


                              Small for a starting point guard.
                              Sometimes makes poor decisions.
                              Can lay off his man on defense as he tries to get easy steals.
                              Sometimes plays too fast.
                              Can look for his own shot before his teammates.
                              Often gets his shot blocked when he gets into the lane.

                              It's too risky a chance that he doesn't transition well into the NBA game to use up the Raptors' pick on Walker.
                              If they did pick Walker who do they move Calderone or Bayless?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X