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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Joey - I think I had read that somewhere along the way. Very relevant and good post.

    My thinking on this still comes down to the average person versus average player salary. Even if we use $2.33M and the average salary is around 4 seasons, we're still talking $9.2 M which is about 455 years of work for the average joe.
    I don't think it should come down to comparing what an average person makes compared to what an average player makes. An average person working at Walmart, or TD, or Sunlife or (insert company here) is much more easily replaced than the average professional athlete. The Market in professional sports has shown that ridiculously high salaries (even the lowest average wage in any of the major pro sport is ridiculously high) is sustainable...a salary like that for the average person is not. Plus I'll add the average person created/accepted these high salaries by buying tickets, jersey etc etc. One average professional athlete creates incredibly more wealth for their company than one average joe. It may not be right... but thats capitalism for you. It has no morals or ethics.


    I don't even know why they are bothering discussing median or mean salary here when what is really important is the total cost of salary... sure in the end you'll have to divy out how the inevitable decrease in salary will be distributed... but right now what an average player makes or should make really isn't that important. Its also not the 'average player' who is creating financial difficulties the league is apparently having, its the top end (well above mean or median) salaries that aren't benifitting the team to expectations (or arguably hurting teams both financially and on the court) that have created the problem. I don't think Amir Johnson or Tony Allen have near the impact on teams not meeting the bottom line that Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis do.

    This is just PR by both sides.

    Management: "hey average joe look how much average player#24 makes.. don't you think thats high?"

    Average joe: "sorry didn't you offer and authorize that contract?"

    Management: "yeah but now that my speculation isn't working out I realize my mistake. They are making too much at 5.15 mil, they need to take an 8% pay cut!"

    Average joe: "so 4.74 mil is a more reasonable salary?"

    Player #24: "hey don't listen to him! I don't make nearly that much... I'm actually underpayed compared to what these greedy guys think. I make 2.33 mil"

    Average joe: "man I'd love to get underpayed the way you are for playing a sport.. want to trade jobs? I'll even work for much less!"

    Player #24: "yeah but if I take an 8% pay cut I'll only be making 2.15 mil. Thats poverty man! I have an entourage to service and an over priced car and house to pay for. How can you expect me to do all that and feed my kids and all their moms? Come on nobody ever told me I should plan for the future! Atleast I don't think they did?"

    average joe: "sorry I missed that. I was looking at one of your girlfriends tits. You probably could have saved some cash there."

    both sides: "listen to us average joe this is incredibly important"

    Average joe: "football season underway, baseball playoffs races are heating up, hockey is about to get underway..... whats this basketbull sport you speak of? Last time 2 greedy douchers pulled something like this texas holdem' became famous.... time for live bridge games!"


    This 'debate' is grossly ridiculous.

    Comment


    • The players need to stop this now. This is going to end bad for them, I can see it coming...

      Comment


      • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
        I don't think it should come down to comparing what an average person makes compared to what an average player makes. An average person working at Walmart, or TD, or Sunlife or (insert company here) is much more easily replaced than the average professional athlete. The Market in professional sports has shown that ridiculously high salaries (even the lowest average wage in any of the major pro sport is ridiculously high) is sustainable...a salary like that for the average person is not. Plus I'll add the average person created/accepted these high salaries by buying tickets, jersey etc etc. One average professional athlete creates incredibly more wealth for their company than one average joe. It may not be right... but thats capitalism for you. It has no morals or ethics.


        I don't even know why they are bothering discussing median or mean salary here when what is really important is the total cost of salary... sure in the end you'll have to divy out how the inevitable decrease in salary will be distributed... but right now what an average player makes or should make really isn't that important. Its also not the 'average player' who is creating financial difficulties the league is apparently having, its the top end (well above mean or median) salaries that aren't benifitting the team to expectations (or arguably hurting teams both financially and on the court) that have created the problem. I don't think Amir Johnson or Tony Allen have near the impact on teams not meeting the bottom line that Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis do.

        This is just PR by both sides.

        Management: "hey average joe look how much average player#24 makes.. don't you think thats high?"

        Average joe: "sorry didn't you offer and authorize that contract?"

        Management: "yeah but now that my speculation isn't working out I realize my mistake. They are making too much at 5.15 mil, they need to take an 8% pay cut!"

        Average joe: "so 4.74 mil is a more reasonable salary?"

        Player #24: "hey don't listen to him! I don't make nearly that much... I'm actually underpayed compared to what these greedy guys think. I make 2.33 mil"

        Average joe: "man I'd love to get underpayed the way you are for playing a sport.. want to trade jobs? I'll even work for much less!"

        Player #24: "yeah but if I take an 8% pay cut I'll only be making 2.15 mil. Thats poverty man! I have an entourage to service and an over priced car and house to pay for. How can you expect me to do all that and feed my kids and all their moms? Come on nobody ever told me I should plan for the future! Atleast I don't think they did?"

        average joe: "sorry I missed that. I was looking at one of your girlfriends tits. You probably could have saved some cash there."

        both sides: "listen to us average joe this is incredibly important"

        Average joe: "football season underway, baseball playoffs races are heating up, hockey is about to get underway..... whats this basketbull sport you speak of? Last time 2 greedy douchers pulled something like this texas holdem' became famous.... time for live bridge games!"


        This 'debate' is grossly ridiculous.
        The comparison was between average NBA players and average workers. There are NBA players who make much much more than the average NBA player. There are workers who make much much more than the average worker. Kobe should make much more than Derek Fisher. A doctor with 14 years of post-secondary education should make much much more than a government adminstrative assistant.

        The superstars are going to be paid regarless - and they deserve every penney they get. That is capitalism. The world needs a return to capitalism. The current CBA overpays the average and rewards the lazy once they get their deal. Guaranteed contracts over 5 years regardless of output is not capitalism.

        While NBA players are certainly in the minority of people with the skill set to make it that far, there is a very fine line between an NBA player and those who play in top leagues around the world. An average NBA player is most definitely replaceable.

        This lockout is about the average players in the NBA taking a huge cut of the pie and wanting to continue to do so. There are already max contracts in place for the superstars/all-stars/franchise players. The MLE creates a mechanism to inflate players salaries to the detriment of many franchises. Tony Allen and Amir are worth their contracts. It is the Diop's, Matt Carroll's, Chris Duhon's, Morris Peterson's, James Posey's that kill the franchises. Arenas' contract was worth it when originally signed. His knees crapped out. Rashard Lewis was a bad contract at the tail end (now), not so much initially. For every bad contract at the high end of the scale I would be willing to confidently say (this is my opinion!) that the number of lesser 'bad' contracts is equal to or greater (I don't have the time to go back this up right now - call me out if you disagree!).

        Comment


        • For all the talk of dissention in the owners ranks, I think the players have larger issues - especially Billy Hunter.


          Several high-profile agents, including Jeff Schwartz, Arn Tellem, Mark Bartelstein, Bill Duffy and Dan Fegan, have been on the phones with each other this week. Sources briefed on the conversations say they’re getting closer to pursuing a signed petition, with 30 percent of the NBA’s players needed to bring a formal vote on dissolving the union.

          After that, they would need a majority of the NBA players to vote. To that end, the core agents had been recruiting rival agents to join them in the overthrow, trying to get the majority vote needed to decertify.

          “They’re all militant against the union now,” an agent who works in one of those agencies told Yahoo!.

          One agent says he’s had several conversations in the last 48 hours with the powerbrokers, and feels inclined to eventually join the cause. “There are still players who are on board with [Hunter], but many are not anymore,” the agent told Yahoo! Sports. “This will not be a pretty meeting.”

          Hunter has a plan for Thursday, and it’ll center around what he calls “the division of interest” within ownership. Big-market owners want a deal, small and mid-markets want a prolonged war. Hunter and Players Association president Derek Fisher(notes) believed the owners were bickering among themselves in those three hours away from the players on Tuesday, debating how they should respond to the players’ capitulations at the bargaining table. The union gave the Jerry Busses and Jim Dolans reasons to sit down, and start hammering out a deal. The Dan Gilberts and Robert Sarvers don’t want compromise, they want total annihilation, and they’re willing to miss games, perhaps even the season, to get it.

          So Hunter will tell the players: Eventually, Stern and the owners will crack and negotiate a deal with us. We just have to stay together. Of course, he’s kidding himself. It’s always been, and always will be, far easier to keep 29 NBA owners on board than it will be 400 NBA players. Hunter wants more time to wait on his NLRB filings, more time to watch how the owners go after each other. Yet still, it’s been 2½ years now, and this fight is precisely where the owners always promised it would be, where they always wanted it.

          Hunter waited three hours, and Stern came back with nothing. The union finally walked out of the meeting, and now knows that the paychecks will stop coming in November and December, and that the commissioner’s strategy will have played out perfectly. Hunter could’ve decertified months ago, but refused. He likes the power, likes the paycheck and hates the agents. He never wanted to believe Stern had become so weak, so overrun, that he would let the NBA miss games during this golden age of superstars and television ratings.

          Yet now, Hunter climbs aboard a plane to Vegas on Wednesday morning, and comes to meet his players with no progress, no possibilities. He kept caving, and the owners simply said, Keep handing it all back, and we’ll tell you when to stop.

          Several players told Yahoo! Sports they’ll travel to Vegas for the meeting, and one player texted late Tuesday: “It’s time for results.”

          Hunter had to believe a proposal was coming on Tuesday, had to believe that Stern and the owners wouldn’t keep playing this petulant hard-line game with so much to lose, with such concessions already coming from the players. Only, Stern and the owners did. Long flight out West on Wednesday morning, tough room awaiting him. The commissioner, the owners, they aren’t even the biggest problem for Billy Hunter now. That’s why this could be over for him, why all hell could break loose in Vegas.

          http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...tandoff_091411

          Comment


          • Hunter's main mistake is thinking that the small handful of big market teams carries more sway than the rest of the league. It's a joint venture with every stakeholder having an equal say. The big markets will be lucky to get out of this without the league shaving their profits into a league pot, let alone "rallying the troops" to jump into something similar to the past. The Buss' and Dolan's will be hurt by a prolonged lockout, but most of the rest of the league when you look at the bottom line probably aren't taking that much of a hit if the league's story is somewhat true. Anyway, with half the players ready lay siege on Billy Hunter most of the owners must be having the champagne put on ice right about now.

            Comment


            • Somebody help me out with this:

              Here's a question for you all, and this came to me after reading how the agents are leading this PA rebellion against Billy Hunter... The owners are not allowed to talk to the players. In fact Jordan had to avoid Deron Williams at a charity golf outing even though basketball was probably the last thing on their minds while they were out hitting the links and supporting a cause. To take it further, owners aren't even allowed to mention players' names or talk freely about the negotiations period. I'm sure you all have heard about the $100K fine that Jordan got earlier this week for mentioning the negotiations and using Andrew Bogut in an example scenario to explain his view. That said, are the agents free to talk to the players and the owners right now? If they are, then it bring a lot of things into question.

              Comment


              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                The players need to stop this now. This is going to end bad for them, I can see it coming...
                How is it going to get any worse than the current proposal from the owners? I do agree though that the current negotiating tactics of the union are not going to get the players where they want to be. It's clear the owners are prepared to sit out for a year or more to get a hard cap and that, eventually, they will get it. So, to my mind, the only way the players can avoid their fate is to completely change the game and decertify the union. Throw the league into absolute chaos and uncertainty and maybe a few owners get scared by the ramnifications of losing the court battle and having a free-for-all NBA.

                One other point, anyone who is comparing the salaries of NBA players to teachers and secreatries does not know the first thing about economics and, further, lacks even the most basic common sense. You can safely ignore anyone making that argument out of hand.

                Comment


                • Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Here's a question for you all, and this came to me after reading how the agents are leading this PA rebellion against Billy Hunter... The owners are not allowed to talk to the players. In fact Jordan had to avoid Deron Williams at a charity golf outing even though basketball was probably the last thing on their minds while they were out hitting the links and supporting a cause. To take it further, owners aren't even allowed to mention players' names or talk freely about the negotiations period. I'm sure you all have heard about the $100K fine that Jordan got earlier this week for mentioning the negotiations and using Andrew Bogut in an example scenario to explain his view. That said, are the agents free to talk to the players and the owners right now? If they are, then it bring a lot of things into question.
                  I understand that NBA personnel are prohibited from communicating with agents.

                  http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/69...1-million-fine

                  One other point, if you go back to the MLB labour wars a lot of the actual deal-making was done at informal lunches and dinners where people would get together informally and hash out issues. Taking that off the table further enforces my opinion that the owners don't really want a negotiated deal, they just want the players to cave and will keep them locked out until they get what they want.
                  Last edited by slaw; Wed Sep 14, 2011, 12:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • slaw wrote: View Post
                    How is it going to get any worse than the current proposal from the owners? I do agree though that the current negotiating tactics of the union are not going to get the players where they want to be. It's clear the owners are prepared to sit out for a year or more to get a hard cap and that, eventually, they will get it. So, to my mind, the only way the players can avoid their fate is to completely change the game and decertify the union. Throw the league into absolute chaos and uncertainty and maybe a few owners get scared by the ramnifications of losing the court battle and having a free-for-all NBA.

                    One other point, anyone who is comparing the salaries of NBA players to teachers and secreatries does not know the first thing about economics and, further, lacks even the most basic common sense. You can safely ignore anyone making that argument out of hand.
                    How? The union is crumbling as we speak. They are showing great weakness now, and we're talking almost two months before the season. Just wait until February once players have missed numerous car and house payments and "Mr. J.P.Morgan" comes knocking accompanied by some delightful gentlemen and an foreclosure notice. I know things can get worse for the players because I know history, I know poker and I know negotiation tactics. The players aren't desperate now. If they let this continue until they are desperate they will agree to something inferior to this. Use the last NHL negotiations as a case study. All you need to know about extended labor agreement disputes is in there.

                    Comment


                    • slaw wrote: View Post
                      How is it going to get any worse than the current proposal from the owners? I do agree though that the current negotiating tactics of the union are not going to get the players where they want to be. It's clear the owners are prepared to sit out for a year or more to get a hard cap and that, eventually, they will get it. So, to my mind, the only way the players can avoid their fate is to completely change the game and decertify the union. Throw the league into absolute chaos and uncertainty and maybe a few owners get scared by the ramnifications of losing the court battle and having a free-for-all NBA.

                      One other point, anyone who is comparing the salaries of NBA players to teachers and secreatries does not know the first thing about economics and, further, lacks even the most basic common sense. You can safely ignore anyone making that argument out of hand.
                      The issue the players have to face with a decertification is the $4 billion in guaranteed salaries that could possibly be voided. Another possibility might be the owners could go through their roster player by player, contract by contract, and void the ones they deem undesirable.

                      As for the bolded section, comparing average workers to average NBA players - absolutely. But when using superstar NBA players versus average players and then using the analogy of highly paid professions versus average workers, the point in my opinion is relevant and valid. The majority of average NBA players are like the scavenger fish hanging out around the shark's mouth for scraps (star NBA players are the sharks). I would be more than willing to consider alternatives rather than an indirect insult. Possible enlightenment or a different perspective is always appreciated.

                      EDIT: Actually my post to Joey shows where the comparison of the two came in. I've been rushing a lot lately in posts because with a young family that is now running around everywhere, time is scarce. I apologize for the confusion.

                      The comparison between the two (average workers versus average NBA players) should have compared the average to the top of respective 'class'. For example the doctor makes $400K per year is making 10x that of the average whereas the star NBA player making around $20M is making around 10x that of the average.

                      For me this all comes back to the average NBA player is not worth $3M plus per season. The middle NBA players are the one's fighting for their extra few million per season that I feel they don't deserve - all my opinion.
                      Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Sep 14, 2011, 12:30 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Thanks to previous posters for the in depth analysis of the very complex talks that will determine the future of the league. Correct me if I'm wrong but here is my simplified summary of what is taking place:

                        The players want the status quo of recent agreements with the soft cap, mid level exceptions, Bird rights, etc. and are even prepared to take a slight cut in their share of revenues.

                        The owners are adamant in getting a long term deal with a hard cap in place. The hard cap will put an end to big market roster stacking a la Lakers and Mavs and promote competitive balance and parity which will theoretically help distribute revenues more to small market teams. The owners are willing to pay the stars but are trying to put the squeeze on the players that fill out the rosters, veterans with the mid level exceptions, rookies, etc. Last season's Miami Heat are a glimpse into future of this kind of roster.

                        What is a revelation to me is that the Raptors are in fact a big market team, 5th highest in revenues according to ESPN, and stand to lose in a big way (in profits) with revenue sharing.

                        Comment


                        • Solid take. The small owners want revenue sharing, the big market teams obviously don't want it. The players want it because they know the profits from the big markets divvied up equal amongst all the teams would allow all teams to stay afloat. I agree with the players that revenue sharing would settle a lot of problems. I also can appreciate why the owners of successful clubs won't go for it. In such a scheme the successful owners are penalized for being successful. That ain't happening and so all the owners can collectively agree that taking the money needed by the small time clubs from the players to balance the books seems about right.

                          Comment


                          • stretch wrote: View Post
                            The hard cap will put an end to big market roster stacking a la Lakers and Mavs and promote competitive balance and parity which will theoretically help distribute revenues more to small market teams.
                            This is the owners' argument that makes me laugh the loudest. Will it work just like in the NHL? Look at the great shape all of the small market teams are in after the hard cap was implemented. With success stories like Phoenix, Florida, New Jersey, Atlanta, NYI, Columbus, Dallas, etc. to point to, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think a hard cap system doesn't work. All of the NBA's problems will be fixed and every year, 30 teams will vie for the NBA title. The players are just big poopyheads for not rolling over and agreeing to whatever the owners want.

                            Comment


                            • slaw wrote: View Post
                              This is the owners' argument that makes me laugh the loudest. Will it work just like in the NHL? Look at the great shape all of the small market teams are in after the hard cap was implemented. With success stories like Phoenix, Florida, New Jersey, Atlanta, NYI, Columbus, Dallas, etc. to point to, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think a hard cap system doesn't work. All of the NBA's problems will be fixed and every year, 30 teams will vie for the NBA title. The players are just big poopyheads for not rolling over and agreeing to whatever the owners want.
                              Right, so you think it's cool that one team in the NBA can spend $50 mil and another $100? How is that ever gonna make things fair? I think it's a nice change than having the Red Wings in the finals every year.
                              Eh follow my TWITTER!

                              Comment


                              • slaw wrote: View Post
                                This is the owners' argument that makes me laugh the loudest. Will it work just like in the NHL? Look at the great shape all of the small market teams are in after the hard cap was implemented. With success stories like Phoenix, Florida, New Jersey, Atlanta, NYI, Columbus, Dallas, etc. to point to, I can't imagine how anyone could possibly think a hard cap system doesn't work. All of the NBA's problems will be fixed and every year, 30 teams will vie for the NBA title. The players are just big poopyheads for not rolling over and agreeing to whatever the owners want.
                                Yes, and suddenly the emphasis is on developing in house talent and making smart business decisions as opposed to the small market team having an emphasis on developing in house talent so that the big market teams can then turn around and overpay for said talent... Or force the small markets into spending an irresponsible amount to retain the player because they don't want to let the fans down and hurt their gate numbers. Honestly, the way the NBA is set up right now, ten to fifteen clubs are essentially farm teams to the big six or seven teams.

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