I was watching Kill Bill Vol. 2 tonight after I got home from the Raptors home game and trying to make sense of what I saw on Wednesday night. It was not something I was prepared to see.
But before I get into that, I want to talk about the most tragic character that I see in the Kill Bill movies. In the movie, Michael Madsen (from Reservoir Dogs and of course, the Free Willy movies) plays Bill’s brother, Budd. Budd used to be a part of the deadliest team of assassins in the world. It was comprised of Bill, his brother and four deadly ladies that were all inexplicably named after deadly snakes. Now, I guess it’s not all that inexplicable because I get why you’d name them after deadly snakes. I mean, personally, I’d name my team of deadly assassins after the Teletubbies or characters from The Jeffersons.
(I can picture sending Weezy to Shanghai in order to kill the family members of a crime boss.)
Anyway, Budd is no longer a part of a team of worldly assassins in the second volume of Kill Bill. He’s a shell of the shell of his former self. Instead of being a rich, unique killer he’s nothing more now than a white trash guy living in a trailer in the middle of nowhere. He works at a strip club that nobody goes to. Not only does he work at an empty strip club but his boss hates him and makes his life a living hell. He calls him names and degrades him in front of everybody. He has to resort to begging to keep his crappy job and clean out clogs in the toilet.
This is definitely not where anyone would guess Budd would end up -in a pitiful existence full of failure, disappointment and general suckitude. When they cut to the older shots of Budd in the movies, he’s dressed in a nice black suit with his hair well kempt and his body lean like a killing machine should be. He’s often brandishing a rare samurai sword that very few people could ever possess. When we see the current version of him, he’s overweight, not sharp looking at all and just trying to transition from the good point in his life to his death without having to go through a whole hell of a lot.
While I was watching the scenes with Budd play out on the screen, I couldn’t help but think of Hedo Turkoglu. Raptors fans don’t really know the Hedo I’m familiar with. When the Kings drafted Hedo Turkoglu, it was a complete shock to the fanbase. This was long before European players were being touted as the highest draft prospects in their class. They were an unknown and unheard of commodity. When the 2000 NBA Draft was taking place, Kings fans were hoping for a guy like Desmond Mason to fall to the 16th pick so the team could have an athletic swing man, capable of growing in the Kings up-tempo style of play.
When David Stern announced and mispronounced Hidayet Turkoglu, Kings fans couldn’t have been more confused. They had never heard of this guy. He looked nothing like Desmond Mason. His name sounded more like “hideous superglue” rather than anything the fans had ever heard, so there were no expectations of what he could do or where he might fit in.
As a rookie, he didn’t do much in the regular season. He average five points per game and primarily played during garbage time. When the playoffs came around, he got the same treatment in the first round against the Suns. Even though the Kings won their first playoff series in a very long time, this enigmatic rookie had very little to do with the success.
Then came the series against the Lakers in the second round and even though the Kings were swept, Hedo showed incredible promise. He was one of the few players that seemed to show no fear on the court. He didn’t care that Shaq and Kobe were out there. The presence of Rick Fox or the veteran leadership of Robert Horry didn’t intimidate him. He went out on the court and averaged 13 points per game. He finished the sweep against his team with a 22-point effort in which the Lakers squeaked by with a six-point series closeout. It was his coming out party and he wasn’t shy at all.
Over the next two seasons with the Kings, he was a gunslinger in nearly every sense of the word. He wasn’t afraid to shoot the ball. In fact, there was even a joke amongst my friends and me that if he got the ball, he wasn’t going to pass; the shot was going up no matter what. His percentages weren’t great so his playing time was limited because of it but he showed an innate playmaking ability. He was completely capable of affecting a game in a multitude of ways.
When the Kings finally traded him, they received Brad Miller who completed their big man triumvirate to battle Shaquille O’Neal. They were giving up on a future talent for more immediate success. It wasn’t a surprise to see him blossom in Orlando, especially when they turned him into a point forward type of weapon. He always had the ability and the mindset to be dangerous to his opponents.
So when I saw him return Wednesday night, I couldn’t help but see the broken down version of him. He can’t move well enough to really get by anybody. You can run him in the pick-and-roll and his playmaking will be able to create some scoring opportunities for him and his teammates. His jumper isn’t anything you fear anymore. His defense is as atrocious as ever and he just looks like a liability out there.
I recognize that he’s coming back from an injury and that could be a reason he didn’t move well, but this is something you could see developing over the past year. In Orlando, he had three shooters and an athletic god playing around him so it was hard to truly notice his increasing decline. But in Toronto’s system that doesn’t necessarily maximize his remaining abilities, he sticks out like a sore thumb.
Seeing him in person just reaffirms everything you think you’re seeing on television. He has slow feet and he can’t really jump anymore. He seems ready to go into fun-loving veteran mode instead of trying to fight it out one more valiant time mode. It’s hard to believe he has nearly $44 million (U.S.) and four years left on his contract. His signing was a desperate attempt to put some named players around Chris Bosh to show the upcoming free agent that they’re willing to make moves to keep him on a winner.
You hope that Hedo isn’t the strip club-bouncing version of Budd during the rest of his time in Toronto. You don’t want him relegated to being chastised by his bosses for not being worth much anymore. You don’t want him living some crappy existence in which he seems so alone. You hope that he’ll be able to find his Hattori Hanzo sword and still cut through his opposition on occasion.
Any glimmer of the old assassin Kings fans saw come through Arco Arena would be a welcome site over the clog-clearing shell that I saw on Wednesday.
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84 Raps
Maybe BC should take a page out of kill bill and give him money in a black bag(surprise). Nice post!
His contract will set the franchise back, People keep saying we will see the real Turk in the playoffs, personally I don’t see it happening.
The only person who says that is Doug Smith. He’d be defending Rafer Alston if he was still playing for the Raptors…
LOL, so True. Good Old Doug, staying away from citisizing the team at any cost .
I question whether Doug Smith knows what shape a basketball is! His Basketball experience consists of being picked last in gym class 40 years ago.
Well I hope that what the “people” say is true. If he performs in the play-offs then all will be forgotten I’m sure. If he doesn’t well “Hedo you got some splainin’ to do!”.
“His name sounded more like “hideous superglue” rather than anything the fans had ever heard”
LMAO!!! It’s funny ’cause it’s true! Quote: Homer Sipmson
Wow. Enjoyable read for sure!
With the looming lockout potentially resulting in a reduction in future salaries across the board, the Hedo signing is evolving into one of the worst contracts in NBA history. He makes far too much money for far too many years and takes more off the table than the late Corey Haim at an all you can intake drug buffet.
Between Hedo, Jose & Bargnani, they account for approx. $30M in annual salary and approx. $50% of our cap space.
At the beginning of the season, I expected so much more than what Hedo’s produced so far. Today, I expect nothing more for the next 4 years than what he’s currently shown so far.
This summer, I don’t expect Bosh to re-join this cast of overpaid and defensively inept core.
Right now, I’m mentally preparing myself to survive another half-decade of home town Raptors futility. Bring it on. (Bring the pain.)
Bosh sure isn’t going to stick around to play with Hedo for another 4 years. Why would he? All the great teams in the league now are putting 2 or 3 great players together to make a run. On the raptors bosh has to work too hard just to keep this team afloat and maybe sneak into the playoffs to most likely get knocked out rather easily in the first round. With the contracts of people like Hedo we can’t go land another big name to play with Bosh and there is no way we will manage to trade Hedo with the contract he has left. The decision of signing Hedo will be felt for years to come. Also say your goodbye’s to bosh, he’s been the greatest raptor to play for this organization yet. Time to start all over; but hey we should be used to this by now.
I agree .. and in fact I would be very suspicious is Bosh was re-signed as a max money player, because there is no hope of a championship in the Raptor’s future going out 5 years.
The MLSE will have to be convinced that Bosh is worth max money, and will enhance the value of the franchise .. and honestly, I don’t think that can happen. Sure the t.h. fans are in love with Bosh, but they are brainless anyway.
From a business perspective, giving Bosh a max money contract is too risky and the return is dubious … !!!!
“He seems ready to go into fun-loving veteran mode” says it all
great story!
Did anyone with the team actually scout Hedo and check if he’s on the up or downslope before they opened the chequebooks? Or did they just see him on TV???
As a guy who has been a fan of BC since day one and choosed to close his eyes on some of his questionable moves and give him the benefit of doubt that he will be able to fix it all and …. I have to Say:
BC, you F**ed this one UPPPPP. I think you are done in Toronto. You better hope ( F**ing Pray that we make the Play off and Hedo Play his Ass OFF and you sign Bosh).
It almost reminds of when we got Hakeem. They knew he was crap but they still signed him.
I’m actually starting to wonder if Hedo knew he had blown his wad,and signed with the Raptors thinking he could get away with being a mere shadow of his former self here easier than with Portland.Cynical yes, but……..
I believe that’s called “The Maggette”
If the shoe fits
Excellent text. Kudos to you, nobody summed it up better so far.
Particularly this truth:
“His signing was a desperate attempt to put some named players around Chris Bosh to show the upcoming free agent that they’re willing to make moves to keep him on a winner.”
He was a decent player few years ago, but even then was not worth this massive contract. He is 31, and that would not be a such a big problem if he had Nash-like work ethic. Few players do. Even J.O.’s signing looks like an awesome deal compared to this disaster.
But, let’s hope he surprises us all during the playoffs (if we manage to get there at all). Hope is all we have left, folks.
This is the game where Bosh made up his mind to leave Toronto. His body language was clear as a bell.
Unfortunately it looks like Hedo is here to stay. A core that involves Hedo, Bargnani, and Jose MAY get you in the playoffs, but will not do much beyond that.
If Bosh re-signs… BC will have to look at moving Bargnani and/or Calderon to get more athletic multi-dimensional players in return. Unfortunately he will not get fair market value for either of these players, but will have to take what he can get to rid himself of the long-term contracts.
Don’t you think that BC has rebuilt the Raptors to become Boshless in 2010??? By locking in Bargs, BC has protected the team when Bosh is gone … soooo obvious.
All BC wants is to max out Bosh’s trade value … like getting Lee and Gallinari from the NYKs … or some such trade.
If LeBron stays with the Cavs, Bosh will either go to Miami or Chicago or maybe out west. If LeBron is moved to the Knicks to revive the NY market, Bosh may join him. Staying in Toronto would be like living in hell for Bosh even though the money is good … or maybe BC doesn’t really want to lock up 30% of the salary in one dubious player …???!!!!!
Plus that team QUIT last night. There is no ON -OFF switch in sports. They are not getting a playoff spot. Nice offense when it clicks, no defense to speak of. no leaders stepping up and getting after their team mates. Sometimes you can have way too much of 1 thing.
The axiom that defense wins championships and offense sells tickets describe the core of this team to a T.
He looked much more mobile 2 seasons ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oalkCMiPLwk
some of it could be attributed to age but another could be attributed to his weight and overall fitness level that have been a problem this season. Seems like the classic case of an athlete getting a rich contract and doesn’t feel the need to get better but kick back and relax with a pizza box till retirement.
Just look at his face alone in that video, the intensity is something we can only dream about.
Despite the poor video quality it looks like he actually had muscles at one point.
Here’s my 3 year plan:
This summer, trade José, if anyone wants him, for a draft pick next summer, forcing us to promote Marco to substitute PG. ALSO, expect to lose Chris, forcing us to promte Amir (after resigning him for a long term, but a reasonable annual salary) to PF and Reggie to sub C/PF.
Next season, lose allot of games, with Sonny (after resigning him for a long term, but a reasonable annual salary) at SF, & DeMar at SG and Hedo at SF/G sub (until he proves he should be starting with his production on the court).
Summer of ’11, trade up 2 for 1, & draft a scary PG for a change, demoting Jarrett to sub, where he belongs, and moving Marco to sub SF/G, where he belongs, pushing Hedo to the bench. Extend Reggie for 1 year.
’11-’12 season, lose allot of games, again.
Summer of ’12, draft a C/PF to replace Reggie as a sub. Extend Marco for 1 year.
’12-’13 season, lose allot of games, yet again.
Summer of ’13, draft a SF/G sub to replace Marco as a sub. Extend Jarrett for a year.
’13-’14 season, watch them grow together, FINALLY!
PROJECTED LINE-UP …
START ANDREA, AMIR, SONNY, DEMAR, & ’11 PICK.
SUB ’12 PICK, ’13 PICK, & JARRETT.
Summer of ’14, draft a PG to replace Jarret as a sub. Sign DeMar for a reasonable length & annual salary.
Summer of ’15, draft a C/PF to replace Andrea in the rotation.
Summer of ’16, draft a SF/G to replace Sonny in the rotation.
Summer of ’17, draft a C/PF to replace Amir in the rotation.
At this point, DeMar would have at least a couple of years left to lead us somewhere.
Thank god you aren’t the GM.
What if we waste those picks on guys like Radojevic, Graham, Araujo, Bender, Villenueva, and Bradley. We might need a 6-7 year plan instead.
Stocking up on draft picks doesn’t necessarily mean we’ll turn into the next OKC Thunder…just ask the Clippers.
clippers have a brighter future than the raps, now that they’ve jettisoned dunleavy. they’re in line for a good pick this year, and have some solid pieces going forward (kaman, griffen, gordon), with just one ‘bad’ contract (davis); at least he (davis) CAN play, when motivated. next year’s clips are this years griz…making steady improvements, not there yet, but on the right track. next year’s raps – TBD.
Only way now is if they can unload along with Bosh, the only out. And then we can swing for the fences again. Oh, wait… I guess there be no point now. We had a Bosh, so we drafted a Bargs WTF. And I thought he did well to undo JO but now what an encore. Swing for the fences heh. It’s a joke, but I guess the fans love it. Can’t fathom why they would watch this garbage.
Maybe Portland still wants him?
OK,it’s kinda like going back to your booty call after striking out with a choice piece, but WTF
Swap him for Rudy and add Matt Devlin as incentive.
It says here Bargs is not looking forward to having to figure out the doubles. Can you be imagine how lost will he be then?
best case scenario is that it takes him a season to get the pass out of the double-team….. worst case – we have to trade him.
took Bosh 7 years !!!
The first change should be for Bargs to start from INSIDE for at least the 1st quarter and then work his way out. I rarely recall any kind of high -low action with the Raptor bigs.
IF Triano really wants to rewaqrd good play then some combo(3 of 4) of Sonny/ Antoine/MARCO/DeMar/Amir should be playing more. If you are going to lose at least do it with the guys that give a hoot.Some of the season’s best moments have this group on the floor. They are young, athletic and feed off each other.
Somebody remember the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!!!
Ball.
Ball
At least these guys try to guard somebody. Don’t pick on DeMAr. His is only 20 years old. Look at the guys he ‘s been asked to guard. Talk about throwing him under the bus!
So it’s unanimous now … Bosh is gone..???
Bosh isn’t going anywhere. He isn’t a happy camper, but he re-ups with the Raptors in the summer.
Agreed. He’ll re-sign with the hush hush caveat that BC has a year to get his snake oil togther and conjure up something better.
On a seperate note. The Baron’s, OFSAA champs!!!
To all Oakwood alumni: we still doin’ it baaaby!
I don’t know what to say.
Bosh stays if two things happen.First, the Raptors turn it around,2nd,his want to be “da man” (he has stated he wants to be the 1st option wherever he signs)can only be satisfied in Toronto.
NO! NOT Antoine!! PLEASE!!! Most over-rated Raptor on the team right now!!!! Hedo may be a shadow of himself, but Antoine casts far less of a shadow, period!!!!!
Don’t want to say this, but BC is slowly being declined into JFJ, and Turk is Jason Allison and Jason Blake put together.
These posts are hilarious…everyone so concerned about Bosh not re-signing as his teammates aren’t good enuff…worried about looking from the outside-in at the playoffs. Have you ever thought that BOSH being on the team is the problem? What other team has a PF that comes back off an injury, knows he has to take it slow and ease his way back, so proceeds to hold the ball on every possession for 22 seconds then hurl up a brick. 6/20 shooting vs the Sac Kings. Are you really worried about this guy sticking around? get that gaaaaabage outta here!
If keep Bosh was based on basketball talent alone,I’d agree with you to a large degree, but it aint.If Bosh leaves,like Damon,like Tracy,like Vince,like Antonio…….it will just reinforce the feeling around the NBA that we can’t hold our stars, and make it all the more difficult to build a champion
Hey dude, that’s not what it’s about. Bosh leaving could be a blessing, trust me. It’s about $$$ and playing time. Bosh has it made here, an entire team built on him, even when he is 6/20 he is ALWAYS option 1..even when he’s turning it over and fumbling the ball, he is ALWAYS option 1. I think we could make a pretty special team here if we got some TEAM players.
We should hire OAK to kick some ass,you have a point though,the Raps seem to always build around one option,even going back to the early years.
Sir, death will be wished upon you and yours for suggesting Bosh is the problem.
Personally, I’m so ready for him to leave, just so I don’t have to listen to people talk about how the entire country revolves around him and if he’s happy. VC didn’t receive this much attention in TO at the height of his popularity and he actually won a playoff round here.
And the talk about attracting free agents being gone when he leaves, is completely idiotic. We couldn’t get them while he was here – not much would change if he were gone.
Life does not start or end with Chris Bosh. The Raps were here before him and will be here after him. I mean this ain’t Indiana, NJ, the Bobcats – where people refuse to go watch garbage. You could put seniors on this team and the place would be sold out, screaming about pizza.
Well said, other than the first diss which i assumed was aimed at me. Wish death on me again and i’ll tear ur azz up like a wild chupacabra. but ur other statements were bang on.
lol.. way off. Wasn’t dissing you… just saying people will be upset with you, around here, just for implying Bosh could be the p word.
ahh, sorry dude. i know exactly wat u mean too lol!
Yes, the Problem is the ALL Star Forward of the team. The problem is the guy that ALL OF NBA thinks is one of the top 3 Power forward of the league. Our Main problem is a guy who other teams are emptying salary cap for and dream about signing him.
Once he is gone, Raptors will be the great team that they should have been all these times. They will make it to NBA finals and probably will win it all.
I mean lets face, Bosh is too little of Star for Toronto Market !! With him gone, we can go after the big guys, like Lebron, Wade and Carmelo !! I am sure they will come to Toronto.
How can they refuse to join this team ?? Bosh will be gone which means all the problems are gone. Then we have the super center from Italy, a defensive presence in the paint, scoring machine and …
We have Turkey’s Jordan at SF with stamina that is the dream of some of NBA Players … a Coach who puts Phil Jackson to shame with his plays and ….
Man future is Bright without Bosh, Only if he would leave….
ahaha I agree…I don’t know why people in this city think that Bosh is the problem. IT’s BECAUSE OF BOSH THAT TORONTO IS WHERE THEY ARE. It’s not his fault BC hired a moron of a coach to lead his team. It’s not his fault that the management level is in love with the EURO ball idea and tries to find every single European who knows the word basketball and claim them to be the next big thing. EUROPEAN baseketball players can play finesse, but the NBA is a whole different level. Bringing Jose, Turk, Bargs, Marco, Jorge players who had success in the Euro level – this doesn’t mean they will have that here. Here we have the NBA and I will bet u it’s that fat ba*tard–gharardhini that’s feeding these nonsense about picking up players who can jack a shot but can’t defend their man. Bosh is amazing and for the past week we have seen what we are like without him. So for one game he jacked up shots, he is still better than this hellhole of a team. Lose Bosh and we enter 4 years of futility. Manage to keep him, and we get kicked out of the first round every year, until the 4-some of Bargs, Jose, Turkododo and Jay Triano are removed from this team.
We need more Jorges, not less.
Perhaps, incompetent coaching staff might be 80% of the problem? Worst defense in the NBA since the beginning of the season, defeatism, lack of communication. The fact that Triano & his team allowed totally out of shape Hedo to skip summer training camp and pre-season games, speaks volumes about discipline and attitude, too.
Is this the “winning culture” Colangelo vowed to bring to TO?
“profitable” is “winning culture”, no?
We are all winners here… Hedo got 50M, Jose got 12M a year, Bosh gonna get 130Billion..hell, Bargs doesn’t even know what to do with all the money he has… maybe he should pay a guy to rebound for him.
BC is getting an extension, MLSE is getting paid. Everyone is happy.
Oh no?
Wait, who’s that getting bent over in the corner and a sounding like they like every second of it, while their wallet is getting robbed? OH YEAH!! It’s Raptor fans!! I think I can hear them asking for pizza.
“I think I can hear them asking for pizza.”
At least MLSE should try to feed people decent food, instead of that cardboard.
Hey, there is no doubt Bosh helped get us to “where we are”, but in reality, we are stuck in a perpetual cycle of 8th/9th in the East. Basically since the Boston KG/RA trade, our balls continued to get squashed. Since the Smitch days, we always treat Bosh as option #1, and the staff even admit “when we are in a bind we just dump it to Bosh”. The reality is, one man cannot take you to the promised land. The staff/coach/fans/media seem to have made CB think he can be a one-man-show, and look where it gets us every year. We have to change the mentality and culture of this club, and I think with CB gone alot of the ego will be out of the locker room.
It’s amazing when people complain about giving Bosh max dollars – As if, that money will be saved up for a worthy free agent clamouring to come north of the border!??
If Bosh is gone, sure the team will go on but, there is no way the team will even have a chance in hell of being more than mediocre. Our Championship will be just making it to the playoffs.
wow shahinc… very creative … would you like a cookie, now?
Let me try:
No, teams wouldn’t want to tell Bosh everything he wants to hear in order to get him to come back to the US… and then fit him into their plans as they see proper. Nah… what everyone wants is to make Bosh the face of their franchise. I mean, it’s not like anyone in the L has ever questioned if he is a number one guy or MVP caliber player. Obviously, he is rewriting the NBA history books and all GMs are willing to trade their best players to get him – just like they did before the deadline. But BC was too smart you see? No one pulls a fast one on that guy.
Of course if he stays, it’s obvious the Raps will go on run that we haven’t seen since MJ or Bill.. but he will probably get the 6 rings in a row AND win most all time. The NBA logo will be changed to a silhouette like MJ’s, but with dreads. Rep T-Dot till they bury me will be replaced as Canada’s national anthem. Citizens will be required to get their “first ink” as a sign of respect.
We have been pounding the Chris Bosh experiment for 7 years and, I mean let’s face it, he has proven year in and year out he can win playoff rounds by himself, but just needs that wing player so the Raps can win the Fianls. Night and night out all this guy does is carry his team and wins games… just puts them on his back when the game is on the line and says “I got this boyz.”
Plus, hello? Have you seen the amazing FAs we keep signing because he is here and what kind of player his is? Clearly, we have signed the best of the best every year. Only in TO can a player like Weems reach MVP like status… and don’t get me started on the legend of Reggie Evans; when God decided to make a bball player…he had Reggie in mind.
Otherwise, if he doesn’t stay, it’s obvious the NBA and MLSE will go bankrupt and be forced to shutdown. In fact, the entire game of basketball will seize to exits but lucky for all of us – lil shahinc will be here to provide us with his wisdom and comedy skits, so we can all sleep well at night.
Man, if Bosh would only retire here, like Shareef didn’t with the Grizz. *tear*
GTFOH with that BS!!! ALL star power forward! Who gives a f? AI was an All Star this year, so f what? SHAREEF WAS AN ALL STAR! How did that work out for him or his teams?
“wow shahinc… very creative … would you like a cookie, now?”
Don’t worry, your Momma is giving me some cookie later tonight :)
The rest of your post does not even deserve a reply.
I think FLUXLAND should be banned, he’s not a fan, he hates the Raptors, why does he even post here, let’s put him on “ignore”. I just wanna puke when I read his vile stuff. Let me out …!!!!
You secretly want to be him. soooo obvious.
FLUX…I don’t think the problem is losing Bosh, I think the problem is how are you going to replace him? it’s not like Bosh is a once-in-a-lifetime player but who out there is as good as him right now that’s available? David Lee? Maybe but he’s as bad as Bosh defensively and isn’t as dynamic of a scorer as Bosh. Just curious, who would you replace Bosh with?
I don’t play the ESPN trade machine game, santimo. I never have.
It’s an idiotic waste of time, when a million variables are not accounted for. It all depends on who is actually available and that depends on where the the REAL FAs sign. And then a million other things.
My point is simple – if he in fact is not a once in a life time player, why are we so bent on keeping him? What has he done other then take advantage of the situation he was put in and achieved personal success? Nothing at all. Nothing. And that’s been going on for 7 years.. you know what the definition of insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results.
So why i everyone convinced he is the end all and be all to Raptors basketball?
I don’t know who, really…. but I believe we should be targeting players who are defensive minded 1st, don’t have a personal agenda to fulfill and players who are good at a particular skill only and don’t try to be who they are not.
But that is fantasy because BC goes for players that can shoot 1st or who at the very least players are a “jack of all trades”.. who do a lil bit of everything but nothing exceptionally well. We don’t have one single guy on this team that is consistent, because of that reason. And I don’t include Bosh because he whole thing revolves around him.
And what is he? A C? a PF? Both? a SG? all three? You could trade him for anything, really.
some good points.
technically, your ‘definition’ of insanity is actually just einstein’s quote to describe insane/insanity.
but here’s the thing – for the complete history of raptor basketball, they have done the same thing – over & over & over again – with their best players, which is to either trade them away for $.60 on the dollar, or watch them walk for nothing at all. and it has gotten them where, exactly? isn’t trading bosh (or letting him walk) simply continuing a pattern of behaviour that has proven to be repeatedly unsuccessful in past (i.e. insane)? of the very few teams that have been consistent winners (or contenders) over the last 20 years, how many routinely let their best players leave?
i’m not advocating for or against bosh here, but while he certainly has his limitations, i believe a lot of that has to do with the nature of his position, and the lack of anything resembling a marquee teammate in all his years in TO (save for that small period when vince was in TO, but he’d already entered ‘perennially injured / sulk’ mode). who has been his best teammate? bargs? jose? a washed-up turk? JO? marion? look around the league – no single player has done shit on their own, regardless of how uber-awesome they are.
i’m with you in that the franchise won’t crumble to it’s foundation if bosh leaves, but it would be nice to have seen what it (the team) could have accomplished had they actually put at least one above-average player at THE key spots (2 or 3) during bosh’s tenure. maybe it’s simply a situation in that a team can’t be built around a PF – utah could be proof of that; no chips, despite a HOF PF (& a HOF PG). although timmy D & boston-era KG might throw a wrench in that argument. of course, both of those teams also had/have HOFers or all-NBAers or allstars or near allstars at the 2 and/or 3 spots. how does KG do on a team starting demar derozan & hedo ‘i-will-now-gouge-my-eyes-out’ turkoglu as his wings instead of ray-ray & pierce? does TD win 4 rings without parker, finley, robinson & manu?
the problem, IMO, is as you stated above (who the pieces are that BC as put around bosh), though i don’t think letting bosh go addresses it in any way; sure, you could spend the $$ on a couple lesser players, and they’d have the MLE, and maybe the depth would be improved; but those guys will still have to play with the hedos & joses on the team. until 2 of turk, bargs or jose are removed from the roster, this will be a treadmill franchise, with or without bosh; it’s just that without bosh, they truly embrace the ‘timberclips of east’ moniker.
hey yertu,
you are right – I was using that description to make a point.
I understand what you mean about breaking the pattern; I’m just not sure if this is the guy to do it with. He’s not, IMO, who those guys were… so does that mean they are trying to make up (to the fans?) for letting them go by desperately hanging onto him, under any cost, regardless of what it might mean long term? Another “let’s make the fans happy” move – that usually goes well for a short period and then falls apart to the tune of .500 and the constant clawing onto that record for some speck of faux respectability?
If you read one of my comments from about a month ago, I even said keeping him and redefining his role (paying him less) is what I would love to happen. I see them continually forcing a square peg into a round hole and I don’t know why. I also think that’s part of the reason real FA don’t come here (and why chemistry issue happen) – the pecking order is not right. What you referred to as “limitations” and “nature of his position” is them forcing a role onto that position.
The teammates: When does that argument end? What I mean is, over the course of 7 years, he has been surrounded with X amount of players. Let’s put aside for a second the quality of said players. Why is it that not one single one of these guys has been able to click with him, create a Batman and Robin duo, or even just create a team like environment amongst everyone? See the Laker celebration… awwwkward.
Players are just paraded through town. And you know what? Conditioned by the fact he is our Kobe, people berate and spit on (myself included) these players and essentially run them out of town, when they “dont deliver” and he’s getting his catered to 20/10. Even Swirsky bolted. So, when people talk about how FAs will not come here if Bosh takes off, I venture to think it’s the years of abuse the players before him, and during his tenure, had to take and are now jaded by. Why is everyone else always the problem?
Lastly, the knees. Unless he is wearing that mattress around his one knee because he went through a Wolverine like knee replacement and is now indestructible, I don’t like the look of it one bit. I feared the added weight to the upper body would add problems to the lower body while landing, but for the most part he stayed away from Manu like plays until he went for that block and came down. We all know, the big fellas life is the knees, even more so than guards and he is a skinny dude to start with, got them skinny ass legs just like JO. I fear my friend, I fear much.
As per TD and KG/ supporting casts. I am not one to group him in with those guys. Not even close. Starting on the D. And that changes the supporting cast, in the sense people would play with them before Bosh. So he’s left with scrubs to pick form. Not to mention, Manu Tony FinDog… do they have the careers they had if Timmy is not getting doubled and demanding attention? IMO, neither of those guys have the same careers without Tim. Who has left here or come here and became exponentially better from playing with him, even stat wise? You know how Shaq always says he’s gotten guy contracts or making them better stat wise?
You last paragraph – lol, thanks for remembering TimberClips. Yeah, you are right, you cold do that. But really there is no way of knowing how it would all play out, and I guess I think it would be much easier to accept the losses and watch guys busting balls, then continually talking (or falsely thinking) about how we have all the right pieces but are banging our heads everyday, trying to figure out WTF is going on.
‘Why is it that not one single one of these guys has been able to click with him, create a Batman and Robin duo, or even just create a team like environment amongst everyone?’
because they – for the most part – have sucked? it goes back to the ‘nature of the position’ perspective – as a guy who doesn’t handle the ball or make decisions on who gets the ball (necessarily), his impact on teammates is generally limited to how defenders react to him (much like duncan’s teammates would be left open when they doubled him). however, we HAVE seen this type of impact (perhaps not on the same level, but then again, his teammates aren’t anywhere close to the same level either); if bosh wasn’t somewhat responsible for ‘creating’ opportunities for his teammates, then wouldn’t we have seen SOMEONE step up when he was out? did we not see bargs struggle with the pressure (and granted, it was new to him) of being the focal point of the offense? perhaps we take for granted that bosh is used to dealing with doubles, and is still able to ‘get his’ effieciently.
it may be a tired argument, but the simple fact is that you simply can’t do it alone. i see where you’re coming from in that bosh may not be ‘the guy’ to build around, but how do we know that for certain, when the building that has taken place around him consists of, for the most part, also-rans & cast-offs? i think your point about guys not using the raps as a spring-board to better things is telling; you feel it’s because bosh isn’t good enough to improve these players to the point they are sought-after commodities; i simply feel that they aren’t good enough, period. has ANY player left the raps when bosh has been in his prime and acheived greater success elsewhere? i look around the league, and the only guy i see is…JO, and he’s putting up pretty much the same level of production as he did in TO. and that’s playing with one of the ‘makes everyone around him better’ guys in wade. kind of odd that JO hasn’t been any better in MIA than he was in TO…you’d think that playing with a guy like wade – who, according to most logic, makes his teammates ‘better’ moreso than bosh does – would actually be reflected in a guy like JO, who, while a year older, is also another year removed from his knee injury/surgery/recovery.
marion? on a far superior team, his production has slipped as well, despite playing with the game’s best stretch-PF & a HOF PG (who’s actually still playing really well).
parker & moon? again, on a far superior team, playing with a guy who is universally accepted as ‘making his teammates better,’ these two are barely bit players. on TO, they were ‘key pieces.’ now, we see not only diminished productivity, but their actual capabilities are flushed out. and these are guys that bosh was supposed to turn into something? these are the guys bosh is ‘built’ around? c’mon, man….
i do worry about his health. but it’s something to worry about with any player when such a heavy investment is being made. i sure as shit would rather pay bosh $130M until he’s 31 (the age when bigs traditionally begin to decline) over paying turk another $40-something M until he’s 35, or jose another $30-something M until he’s 32. hell, i’d even rather pay bosh that $$ over a guy like wade, simply due to style of play, wear & tear & age (wade is 28 already – anyone think his max deal is gonna look good in 6 years when he’s broken down & 34?).
Fair enough. And no doubt, I have understood that argument and its logic all along.
Although, I remain unconvinced, as the deciding factor to both arguments is “bosh may not be ‘the guy’ to build around, but how do we know that for certain”
Something about the argument of the players around him sucking also seems invalid; in the sense that “guys to build around” are usually winning games by themselves and controlling games during critical junctures. With them, it seems that certain losses due stem from the fact the supporting cast “lets them down” aka “sucks”.
Whereas with him it seems to be more of situation of ensuring he gets 20/10 during the game while hopefully the rest of his teammates are “on” as needed, working around his flow, and God forbid if they are not on it’s “Off with their heads!!” (Alice..lol) It’s as if he approaches the situation from a “Hey I do my job, you do your job” angle and in the end we have a product like on an assembly line.
It doesn’t work that way if you are da (real) man.
That is what separates him from the “leaders”, I think. He doesn’t see his mates as “tools” to build/use around his game and adjusts it accordingly, nightly, allowing his teammates and team to take full advantage of a particular opponent. It seems it’s: OK! Chris gets his 20/10, first. Everything else second and hopefully we win.
I know you attribute that to his position, but even some of the guys you mentioned like TD and KG exhibited those qualities and in my mind not they are not in the same category as him. (He’s a wannabe SG hiding in PF body) They are triple double threats, defensive threats, completely different caliber of beast. So if he is not all that, how is he the guy to build around? Because by design he gets his 20/10? And thats’ why his teammates really suck that bad? I’m not arguing they are All Stars, but does them plus him equal the exact same success as them plus any of them? Arguably, I suppose.
It reminds me of (not player, but situation) the Bobcats when they were pushing Okafor and his double doubles as the cornerstone of the franchise. Ummm, yeah.
==
The Boshless games reference is sort of weak, due to small size sample – as opposed to 7 years, and doesn’t factor in potential personnel changes.
As far as the contract – I think in the end, no one wants to be paying mad loot for a guy to be checking out nurses on his trips to the hospital. But, his situation is unique in the sense he is not a traditional big, he has been playing for a while and is wearing protective equipment. Riding the highway on the spare. Look how scary that one fall was. Wade takes 8 of those and fights in the UFC. This guys is out a week with boo boo ankle. I dunno.
valid points, though i doubt we’ll ever come to an agreement. the biggest dispute i have is that bosh should be playing a different role with the team (or, any team), that he’s not really cut out to be option 1 on offense. but the reality is…if not him, then who? as a ‘leader’ it IS on him to lead by example (you see it as stat-padding, i simply see it as him doing his job) & to try to get the best out of his teammates, but considering that NONE of his former teammates have done diddly-poo after leaving, and NONE of his current teammates seem capable of putting up consistent production (either with him or without him in the lineup), i’m less inclined to put that (the play of his teammates) on his shoulders.
as for the ankle…i know you must have played. i sprained mine in Dec. tried playing for the first time since a couple days ago (after rehabbing it for weeks)…it was too soon. ankles are a finicky bitch, you just never know how long they’ll take to fully recover. i’ve gone over on mine & thought it was bad, only to be back playing in 5 minutes. is that just an excuse? i dunno, cause i’m not him…but it doesn’t take much to lose a half step.
at the end of the day, it comes down to whether they’re better off retaining him for big $ & hoping they can put the proper pieces around him with trades (good eff’n luck) or the MLE & that DD steps up his development over the summer in a big-time hurry…or, that whatever pu pu platter they get for him in a S&T provides the missing elements.
but whatever happens, they’re more than likely stuck with both hedo & jose for the long term, and those two will do more damage than any other factor, simply because their combined salaries are exceptionally exorbitant for the level of production provided. i can live with bargs, because at the very least, he’s a tradeable asset. not so much for hedont & jose.
I hear ya, the dilemma continues. I know I come across as CB4 hater, but I’d be a moron not to understand what he bring to the table.
I just don’t get why not use your best guy and his game to compliment his teammates as opposed to continually demanding (supposedly)less talented players to step up and killing them when they don’t. If that makes sense.
Yeah, you are right. Ankles are funny, and Wade may prove that as a comparison. Point was, he doesn’t seem to handle it as well as others, do we really expect as time goes by, for injuries to heal faster? Jose, anyone? Btw, I had crutches when I f up mine, and I think those were a bigger PIA than the ankle.
Again, as I said before the “better off retaining him for big $ & hoping they can put the proper pieces around him with trades” dance has been going on for 7 years… do we just keep doing that until he retires? So in 3 years we can say we had him for 10 and maybe won a round? How is that ROI?
Not stuck with anyone. We know that.
“and I guess I think it would be much easier to accept the losses and watch guys busting balls, then continually talking (or falsely thinking) about how we have all the right pieces but are banging our heads everyday, trying to figure out WTF is going on.”
I am with you about this one. I like seeing no-name dudes playing hard, no matter what. Wins will come with the effort.
Belief that we have “right pieces” is what Colangelo successfully sells every year to the Raptors fan base.
Colossal failures, starting with our boy Triano, defense specialist Iavaroni are sold as the right pieces. Who is next? Another run’n'gun Phoenix by-product. D’Antoni, perhaps?
Give me a break.
And you know what’s total F up?
When we are playing the Lakers or Cavs, we are sold as “no name guys busting balls” so if they don’t win it’s OK. “We hung with and almost swept the champs, baby! See we got the talent, we are developing damn it!”
and then (and I love this) vs “scrub/weak” teams we are sold as the unstoppable contending machine who when loses: “Who cares man! Relax, we need time to gel, we are developing. Also, F Turk and Bargs..they can die”.
Give me 2 breaks and a Kit Kat bar!
Also, the right pieces will probably include, in some sort of typical 16 team BC trade (which of course just means he is pure genius, due to the amount of teams involved):
Mike Miller
Kevin Love
Al Jefferson
Chris Kaman
Cpt. Kirk
Luke R.
AK47
You gotta think like BC – ala Luke Jackson, Andre, Jake, Pops, Primoz… just total powerhouses, baby.
I agree, it seems like BC has an affinity for offensive players. Wright and Evans are the only guys I can think of who BC has gotten for their defense but they haven’t made a difference on the defensive end. I wouldn’t mind seeing Jose traded for a defensive specialist at any position (PF, SG, PG – it doesn’t matter). I’m thinking someone like Sefolosha or even Wilson Chandler from the Knicks. You’re right though, it does depend on the situation. I just think the Raptors roster is too focused on offense. I actually liked the way Banks was playing before but he unfortunately makes waaaay too much money as a back up. I liked having banks guard the Pg position and Turk running the offense.
I’ve been a Bosh fan for a while now so I’m still hoping that he can lead them past round 1 of the playoffs but if he doesn’t do it this year then you may need to make space for me on the “trade Bosh” bandwagon.
FLUXLAND.
Dont sweat it bud, its just a discussion..
I hope you handle the few year rebuilding process well..dont break your keyboard
Love you(L)
Bye
I got a great laugh out of this! : )
Sincerely thanks, whoever you are…err, TJ, that is. LOL!
HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 9TH seed.
OFF of JT and Iavaronis heads!!!!!!!! please!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cant we get Van Gundy away from ABC to coach this team.. or what about Phil Jackson. I hear he’s done with the Lake Show after this year. If he wants a challenge – this team is it. We might as well pay for a coach who knows what the f**k hes’s doing and have a good track record rather than pay for someone who clearly does not have a freakin clue on what’s going on and is too concern about his substitution pattern rather than trying to win the game.
Also – BC, one more thing – this EuroBall experiment.. it clearly doesnt work…ask anyone who has ever watch a raptor game. you want to keep Bosh – you know who to get rid off.
I liked this blog, was refreshing from the regular inputs which are great appreciated from phd, and arse.