Colangelo’s labeled the Raptors as “buyers” this trade deadline but what exactly he’s buying is anybody’s guess. It could be a tweak for salary cap reasons or it could be a mini-overhaul of a position, the rumour mill has us interested in Josh Howard, a player that was mentioned last year around this time. You have to believe that where there’s smoke there’s fire which means Colangelo is at least open to the possibility of a shake-up as long as it makes sense. The 2/3 positions have given us minimal point production this year (21st, 22nd in the league) as Turkoglu has failed to get himself going and DeRozan and Belinelli struggle with consistency. Is this reason enough to address the wing spot?
We’ve come this far without any significant production from our main off-season signing and banking on him to find his game and carry his weight could be too much to risk for Colangelo, especially if it threatens another first-round exit. The options at SF remain extremely thin with Antoine Wright second in the depth chart. Making a move for a high-caliber player such as Caron Butler or Josh Howard (although he has regressed) would involve parting with a strength, likely Jose Calderon. A move like that would be lateral at best because you’re giving up someone who has proven to work well within the offense for another X-Factor that’ll require time to gel. Do we really want to go that route again?
Unless a team is willing to take on Turkoglu in return, there’s no reason to add another expensive scorer at the position by giving up a great locker-room guy like Jose Calderon. There is one exception: Andre Iguodala. I consider him to be in a different tier than Howard or Butler who is a good scorer but a suspect defender. Iguodala is locked into a $13.5M deal till 2012-13 with a player option the following year. Giving up on Jose Calderon here is a no-brainer as we would’ve acquired the perfect complement to Bosh. Iguodala would take over starting SG duties with DeRozan backing him up and Belinelli sharing ball-handling duties. In fact, this trade works with or without Johnson and we could throw in a pick to sweeten the pot. With Evans coming back from injury, there is a contingency plan to fill the void left by Johnson and we get a ball-handler in Ivey.
Targeting Iguodala, 26, is more viable than going after Howard or Butler who are both 29. If we’re thinking of finally partnering Bosh up with an All-Star caliber player, having similar career-windows is a big bonus. However, making a play for Iguodala will be tough as the Suns have reportedly offered Stoudemire in exchange for him and Dalembert. There’s also Houston which is offering Tracy McGrady’s expiring contract for the same package. As a Raptor fan you have to wonder how great it would be right now to have Jermaine O’Neal and his $23M expiring contract around. Oh, to think about it.
Josh Howard is the type of player that’ll take this team nowhere. He’s a good scorer but he’s far from the impact player that we would need and I’d be reluctant to break up our PG-combo just for him. There’s also little reason for Dallas to be interested in Jose Calderon since they already have Jason Kidd locked in till the 2011-12 season. Kidd’s playing 36mpg which doesn’t leave much ball-handling for Jose to do. The Mavericks boast Jason Terry as their SG which makes me doubt they’ll play Calderon over him; with Jose Barea doing a good job of backing up Kidd, the Mavericks (5th best in the league in protecting the ball) have no incentive of altering their PG setup. Make no mistake, the Mavericks want Bosh and nothing else, that’s not going to happen. Howard does have a team-option for next year so trading for him could mean cap relief to sign a free-agent as early as this summer.
Caron Butler has had an off year. His scoring average has dipped by 4 points, his assists have been halved at 2.2 and his FG% and 3P% have taken a dive. This could be a case where Washington wants to clean the house up a little and would be willing to sell players at lower values. Butler’s play certainly hasn’t helped the sale and whoever acquires him will know that this year is an anomaly and not the norm. Butler’s on the hook for $10M till 2010-11 and is in desperate need for a change of scenery. How he might fit in with the Raptors is anybody’s guess, but I just don’t see it happening at the SG as that’s a position he just hasn’t played in Washington. As I already said, Hedo would need to go.
Kevin Martin’s name was being bounced around last month and that’s because Tyreke Evans and him can’t seem to play together and the Kings are 2-13 in games the two have started. Sacramento is doing a proper rebuild and is looking for financial relief (on the hook for $12M per till 2012/13) more than talent, and that’s something we can’t provide, nor would we want to because Kevin Martin is an overpaid one-dimensional player that will always start for a losing team.
Other than the big names, there are options like Mike Miller and Troy Murphy, both playing with teams well out of the playoff race. There’s an element of redundancy with acquiring Troy Murphy as we’ve already got Andrea Bargnani, but the rebounding and three-point shooting he would provide as part of the second unit is attractive. Miller’s a legitimate 40% shooter but we’ve already got an equally good but less consistent model in Belinelli. To bolster the second unit we could also look at Marcin Gortat in Orlando who isn’t happy with his playing time, not sure if we would offer more than 13 minutes but he would provide some good screens and consistent rebounding. The contract is a mess, though, approximately $7M till 2013-14. Here are a couple of creative ways of getting Biedrins without giving up part of our core.
Leaving talent and salary alone for a bit, the issue with this team continues to be lack of leadership, discipline and consistent effort. I don’t know how much of that Reggie Evans will solve, but a shrewd pickup would be someone who could keep this team in check. A verbal veteran that’s a bit of a psychopath, can’t really think of anyone. The need for defense is there but it would have to be an almost perfect move for one player to make a noticeable difference in that area (mind you that we are top 12 in defense for the last 25 games). Defensively, we are what we are. Other than effort there is no tweak that we can make which will fix our defensive woes, we have to overcome that problem by playing solid team defense instead of solely relying on man-coverage, something we’ve done a good job of late.
We’re 0-3 against the C**tics, 1-3 against the Magic and 0-2 against the Hawks. The team as it is would have trouble in a matchup against any of those teams and Colangelo will take that into account. If the goal is to rack up regular season wins, the current team can do that to the satisfaction of the fan base, if the goal is to excel in the playoffs, we will obviously fall short. That’s the reason I feel that a move is coming.



219 Raps
I really don’t see the love for Beirdrins.
Beware the fools gold that is a player puttin up #s on a losing team, especially when that team doesn’t have any other true players to push him for time. Poor D, less O than AB on a bad day, hrrible ft shooting, weak, and inflated rebounding #s due to lack of anyone else on the floor being over 6’8″ and the simple fact that the Dubs chuck up alot of shots.
Plus,he’s been playing like crap since he returned from his latest injury.
hes not playing bad at all… hes just not getting minutes… its not his fault nelson is a moron.
Btw there is no one there to get him the ball, curry and ellis are shoot first
If Biedrins was what you claim, which he isn’t, there would be several numbers that would show it. One is Defensive Rating. Last year, Golden State had DRTG of 113.3. Biedrins personally was at 107. Biedrins’ Offensive rating was 116, while GS as a team was at 109.5. What this means is with Biedrins on the floor, the Warriors did far better than they did with him on the bench. This is not true of the Raps and Bargnani. Note that Biedrins’ ORTG is higher than his DRTG (116:107). He has accomplished this every year he’s been in the league (career 119:105). Bargnani is the exact opposite. The Raps are losing with Bargs on the floor (career 103:109), the Warriors are winning with Biedrins out there.
As for the rebounding, if Biedrins was grabbing more rebounds than most other players merely because of the pace the Warriors are playing, we would expect him to post mediocre rebounding percentages. Quite the contrary, Biedrins has some of the best numbers in the NBA. His rebounding percentages career are 12.2/24.7/18.3 (off/def/tot). That takes into account his early years. Playing 30 minutes per game last year he posted 13.0/27.4/20.2, good for top 5 in the league.
I would describe Bargnani as “fool’s gold” because of his penchant for making 2 or 3 big plays in a game, while simultaneously allowing offensive rebounds, a wide open lane, and post offense to the bad guys. He seduces Raps fans into thinking he’s really helping when he isn’t.
Iguodala’s ORTG:DRTG for his career is 110:106. I would support trading Bargs for Biedrins, and a separate deal for Iggy.
You have no idea.
Yes, stop tying to trick us with facts and evidence! This is a discussion, goddamnit!
Beauty Post.
The difference between winning and losing is having a player who you describe as,
“I would describe Bargnani as “fool’s gold” because of his penchant for making 2 or 3 big plays in a game, ”
That’s not “fool’s gold”, its foolish to think a team wins without someone who does that.
There are no perfect players – its Colangelo job to get players who compliment each other and create a winning team.
The Raps don’t just need a bunch of average players who do most things reasonably well – they need some guys who can make the “big play”.
I agree. What does bringing in a center or power forward do for us? all that means is Bargs plays less. Any trade that takes our young players off the floor is a bad idea unless you can get an all star impact player i.e. Iggy.
Lets learn from the Leaf’s and not mortgage our future to be slightly better now!
This is how every team looks at Raps.
If Bargnani’s rebounding numbers are inflated, we’re in big trouble.
Bargnani for Biedrins? I not only wouldn’t support this deal I would form a lynch mob of angry fans to descend on the Raptors executive office to burn the place to the ground. Why don’t we trade Bosh for Kris Humpries now that he is puttin up numbers in NJ(extreme sarcasm). Basketball is a team game and some of the convoluted per/min stats and player effeciency stats aren’t worth the time it takes to generate them. That is not evidence of a players true ability and value.
Couldn’t agree more on Howard. He’s a high volume scorer and a liability on D (http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=1) which is exactly what we DON’T need. 27% from 3? No thanks.
Iggy is the only trade I would do – but I’m sure (as you point out) Philly will have more attractive offers.
I thought that if Philadelfia is going to rebuilt they would need at least a star player to rebuild around . Isn’t Iggy the logical choice to do that ?. Most trade scenarios suggested by fans do not see the other team needs .
Hedo should not be traded period , that would be a huge step backward.
for…the team receiving him, or the raps? honestly, i’m not sure at this point…
I hate the thought of the Raptors in the playoffs and the team being lead by Jose or Jack in very tight defensive games . I might have to turn off the TV not to look at the disaster.
sure. ’cause hedo has shown how clutch he is.
He has in the playoffs…where it matters.
granted…though let’s not overstate his impact. it’s not like he’s on some 10-yr run of postseason brilliance.
one great playoff run and he’s the turkish MJ. Give me a break
if people looked/remembered his career in Sac.. Rick Adelman could tell you how many lifetimes he lost with Hedo’s “clutch” FT shooting in the playoffs…speaking of 10yr run of brilliance, yertu.
Agreed.
with yertu…but he is our only hope to get out of the first round, hopefully against Orlando…nobody is going to catch Cleveland and I don’t think we have a chance against Boston and Atalnta as the team stands now.
In order to rebuild, philly needs to dump long-term committments. But they seem to know that both Dalembert and Brand’s contracts are far too ugly for any team to take on, so the only trade-able asset they have is Iggy. Sucks for them, but potentially good for us.
Philly may get better offers from other teams (like Phoenix), but in the case of Stoudamire, does Philly want to risk him walking at the end of the season? This offer only makes sense for Philly if Stoudamire is used simply for cap relief at season’s end, not if they plan to include him in their future.
I really feel sorry for the Phili fans. I mean they got no one to give them any hope for the future. They will be the New York Knicks for the next four years, which is pretty sad. Elton brand is being paid max money for another 4 years… Dalenbert 10 mill for another 2… and they almost got no talent on that team except IGGY.
Now trust me on this, if toronto wants to get Iggy, they have to be ready to give up DD, another young gun (maybe Johnson), 1 or 2 first round picks, and maybe Calderon. Guys think about it, IT IS THEIR “franchise” player they are giving up, and he is at his prime… I honestly think Arse you are pretty delusional if you think Toronto can get Iggy for Calderon, Johnson, “maybe” a first round pick. Just think about it, if you were a phili fan would u make this trade? I know i wouldn’t.
Don’t worry about Hedo being traded. He is right there next to Eddy Curry as the most untradable player in the NBA!
And he won’t be tradeable for 4 years…
He is going to be hard to move, and that’s really depressing. Iggy would be perfect fit for us, however other teams will be able to make better offers. Second on the list would be Butler, and I don’t see much point in bringing Biedrins or Josh Howard.
Lots of good discussion points….and frankly, exciting potential.
This team is beginning to gel and once again find themselves at the same Rubicon as two years ago: remain at the entertaining status quo (and first round playoff loser) or roll the dice for a deep push into the playoffs.
Turk would be everyone’s choice to go. I just can’t see anyone taking that contract without dumping in some major “core” sweetener…..and maybe a few shots of tequila. Like you, I agree Howard isn’t the answer; however, if anyone is willing to take Turk we need to listen.
When I look at this team, I see us completely paralyzed by the cap, aside from the annual BC tweak. I think we’ll have to make do with what we have – a good but deeply flawed team. This might be becoming BC’s calling card.
Fun to think about upgrades though.
“Turk would be everyone’s choice to go”
That’s a big speak for yourself!
Raps need Turk – Turk is the one guy who gives the Raps any slim chance they have at playoff success this season!
Look past the stats.
No SF is being discussed in trades worth what Hedo brings to Toronto.
(No, the Raps are not getting LeBron)
if the raps are relying on turk for playoff success…yikes.
like the stuffy french maitre ‘d said in ferris beuller’s (sp?) day off…’i weep for the future.’
Look how well Turk’s team did in the playoffs last year. Lots of their fans credit Turk for having a big part in that success and would love to have him back. Probably some of his ex teammates would agree. Hedo plays like Hedo. Why expect something else?
We knew before this season started that the second half would be much better than the first half and the Raptors ARE getting better which is why their winning % is right up with the elite teams over the last twenty games. This team has shown us flashes of very nice ball and they have a mix of youth, experience and a front court that can play with anyone. I’m curious just how good this team can become.
big difference between being curious how good they could become, and how confident you are that they could become quite good…
Hedo’s past stats shows that his shooting regresses
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/turkohe01.html
His TOV% goes up (not good).
He’s hit a few very clutch shots – but its more a byproduct of him taking so many.
Unfortunately, his FG% in clutch time is only 0.357
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT6.HTM
If you make a few, its replayed on SportCentre and Youtube for days/monthsall the time. But if you miss, they show it once. So some players are perceived to be more clutch then they truly are.
A large part of Raptor wins in January was Hedo’s contributions on the floor. And with the NBA’a arcane stats, it doesn’t show up. A player doesn’t have to have hit the shot or made the assist to be the one who made the play happen.
Here’s his numbers from last year’s playoffs:
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08ORL9.HTM#clutch
we need a sg not a sf.
FYI: Hedo is a BYC player.
He’s virtually impossible to trade.
Um, are you sure? Hedo has a trade kicker, but I’m pretty sure he’s not a BYC player.
Signed as a FA, not a “Bird” or rookie extension contract which creates BYC as per ESPN.
as MUCH as I was opposing the Hedo signing when he was being signed for 10 mil/year, and i was like worse signing of the summer and people are like “he will be our 2nd best player on the team, and you don’t know shit, STFU”,guys need to realize Turk brings more to the team that just scoring. I mean did anyone see us playing against Indiana, and the Nets. I mean we had zero chemistry. Turk is pretty underrated in the fact that he has been the glue for any team he has played for. Once his shots just start falling if ever, this team will be one of the best teams in the east. I know there is no way he is worth 10 mil/year through his mid 30s, but cmon guys he is not that bad. It is not like he is a negative factor when he is on the floor. Was it a bad siging? for sure, but was it one of those Elton brand signing? hell no. This guy has high basketball IQ that any team would thrive for, but they just wouldn’t pay 10 mil/year for it…
+1.
That Brand signing…ouch.
The idea to trade the heart of the team is ridiculous. Ask Detroit. It’s not always about the numbers: it’s about chemistry and the right mix of people.
I’m sure Colangelo has something in mind. I hope any trade will be done to better the team and not just to make a trade. We do need a consistent shooting threat from the wing position, a la Eddie House or Anthony Morrow. Iguodala has no place in our team as the pecking order is already established: Bosh, Bargnani and Hedo, with the PG’s setting them up and doing some scoring if need be. I doubt he’d accept to be a 4th option in our team.
Iggy is essentially, a better DeRozan (better shooter, better rebounder, better defender, way more experience, hunger to play for a winning team, etc.). I think he’s the perfect fit. There’s no denying how weak our wing play has been this year.
Turk may be the 3rd scoring option by default, but I’m sure he’d LOVE to have a guy like Iggy to run with. Turk wants to ball in his hands to make plays for his teammates, not to take more shots. He really prefers to pass than shoot.
Good chemistry on the team is actually questionable.
I mean, if you keep saying to the media that you need ball in your hands most of the time to be effective – that’s no good. I am sure our point guards don’t like to hear that stuff. Ball handling is their job, right?
Also, his bullshitting about face mask and making problem out of it is concerning. Our Jordan-boy has been chemistry killer and major disappointment so far.
Whether he is going to prove to be an essential piece come playoff time – we don’t that, don’t we? We can only guess, and you don’t want to be guessing if you want to be successful.
Chemistry happens on the court, and you just have to watch to realize that Turkoglu creates good chemistry out there. He keeps the ball moving and creates lots of easy shot opportunities for his teammates.
The `ball’ comment was not necessarily directed at anyone, and I think people are reading way too much into it.
As for the facemask thing, why on earth would that do anything to their on the court chemistry? He’s saying he doesn’t like wearing the facemask. Hell, I’d find it awful to wear, a big plastic thing covering your face when you’re out there sweating. I don’t blame him one bit, and I highly doubt there’s one teammate of him that cares in the least about whether or not he doesn’t want to wear it.
You’re just reaching WAY too much here.
I am really not sure that he is the guy that creates good chemistry out there. He has been acting like a spoiled high school kid blaming everybody and everything around him for his bad marks since day one.
And yes, if I was Colangelo or that spineless Triano I would either MAKE him wear that mask or SIT HIS ASS on the bench. After all, 50+ million has been invested in him, and even if you want to trade him – you’ve got to make sure he stays healthy.
Good article…agree that Josh Howard is not the answer, if the raptors trade for anyone I want Iguodala thats it. I don;t think they can make this trade unforuntately because they don;t have the parts…unless they can get a three team trade giong.
But I just don;t see it coming, I don;t want howard, and even though I like caron not sure raps should trade for him. I figure unless something comes out of left field the raps won;t make a trade, becuase if you trade calderon you have to upgrade significantly at another position and try to get a servicable back up point guard.
If Colangelo pulls something like this off for Iguodala…give him an extension that day. maybe even a parade.
Colangelo is going to get the extension.
But if he gets Iggy, then Burke and him deserve a parade for those trades.
ah, the typical response to a ‘big name’ trade…a parade.
It’s been a LONG time since Toronto fans had anything to get truly excited about!
Let’s Go Blue Jays is getting a little muffled by time.
boredom @ work
+
internet access
+
ESPN Trade Machine
=
3 wasted hours, 18 trade scenarios, 1 massive headache.
the best part of working trades on that site is actually talking yourself into them. like this 3-teamer (jose & wright to LA, butler, crittenton & foye to TO, farmar, amir, morrison & josh powell to wash). i actually spent 15 minutes debating with myself whether any of the 3 teams involved would do it, and somehow came up a rational argument why it makes sense for each team.
then i did this one:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ykq3tz8
trust me, there’s nothing i can’t talk myself into…the key in this deal is sammy D – nothing would be better than listening to leo rottens do games with sammy as a raptor.
NBA rules state that if the Hollinger wins for a team are worse than -5 in a trade, the team is not allowed to make said trade.
I have no idea why Philly would give up Iggy, Dalmebert and Williams, arguably their top three players for Jose Calderon, Turk’s terrible contract and a free agent to be who is likely to be overpaid this summer.
dude, i know. the trade machine is wishful thinking personified.
but, from what i hear, philly – if iggy is being moved – are being adamant about including either brand or sammy (basically, using iggy – good – to rid themselves of sammy – bad). to move that much $$$, there needs to be serious coin flowing the other way…while i’m sure they’d like to get $25M in expiring contracts for iggy & sammy, that ain’t gonna happen…they are going to have to take on at least something of a long-term, ‘bad-ish’ contract. i figured that other teams/GM’s haven’t figured jose or turk out yet (is billy king still running that team?).
Trade is too big but.
If Philly is thinking of giving up Iggy for cap space – the Raps have a shot with Jose & DeMar.
but they’d only be gaining a few mil. still think any deal involving iggy is gonna also involve either brand or sammy.
a thought about sammy…how many seconds after his deal was announced was it universally panned as a horrible contract? was it 5? 30?
You’r willing to give up 20Pts, 5rbs, 5ast, per game (Jose/DeMar) for
Iggy from Philly? How is that going to Improve Raps? Who is going to play PG, Banks?
is this one of them there sarcastic posts?
in the event you’re serious:
sure, it’s always better to need two guys to give you relatively the same production as one (i know, i know, iggy isn’t a 20/5/5 guy…just a paltry 17/6/7. brutal).
as the big hole at PG they’d be left with…jack is still the starter, playing ~36 mpg. banks has not proven to be a total liability, and can at least defend. belli, though extremely streaky, has shown playmaking ability. and wasn’t turk brough here with the express purpose of being a play-making, ball-handling ‘point-forward?’ it’s not perfect – always nice to have continuous steady play at the PG spot – but to get, you have to give.
now…put the shoe on the other foot. BC takes that offer to philly, and get’s laughed at. so i don’t think you’ll have to spend too much time worrying about it.
If Eddie House can play backup PG for a championship calibre team, I’m sure the combination of Banks/Marco would suffice for the 12-15 mpg that Jack needs a breather.
..and in the instance that jack gets injured?
in the instance any starter on any team gets hurt?
how is calderon’s contract gaining cap space? That doesnt make sense at all.
Strongly against trading Jose.
The fascination with Iguodala perplexes me. To get him we will give up DeRozan and his rookie contract and what else?
Stand pat.
Telling BC to Stand Pat is like telling Amy Winehouse to stay off smack. It’s like telling Keon Clark to not smoke pot. It’s like telling my drunk buddy at St. Louis Bar & Grill to stop embarrassing me by hitting on the waitresses. I keep picturing Triano, English and Iavaroni having an intervention: “BC, you have a problem”. And then physically restraining him as he makes a mad dash for the telephones.
BC ain’t gonna stand pat. The man has a problem.
And its a good problem!
+1 for the Keon Clark reference. Man, I miss Keon, he has to be one of the best energy guys in Raptors history. I hope amir stays, because the Raptors seem to have success when they have a player that can shift momentum like Amir does and Keon used to.
Keon Clark lost his mind. Which was too bad – he could play.
Keon didn’t loose his mind… he just felt his time was better spent golfing and getting high.
As long as he has planned his finances accordingly, not exactly a bad way to spend the rest of your life.
Didn’t Keon get busted recently for robbery or something. I would recommend not using his financial advisor for your own retirement.
I suppose if your financial advisor is also your dealer it could lead to problems……
+1000… every good GM knows that the key to an elite team is constantly making trades and using the roster for a game of never ending musical chairs. Really, the answer (after the “chemistry issues”) is another trade MID F SEASON.
Best of all he has managed to conditions the entire community to think the answer to everything is firing the coach or making a trade.
Bryan Pavlov, really.
look, i’m in the same boat re. iggy – i think he’s overrated, and overpaid…but also talented, and in a shitty situation.
of course, i also don’t get the fascination with DD. what does he project as? borderline all-star? all-nba? mvp-calibre? i don’t see it. i think he’ll be solid, but streaky, never quite putting it all together. yeah, i know, he’s 20. and next year, he’ll be 21, and we’ll be saying ‘he’s just 21.’ and so on.
as for jose – the desire to want to hang onto him is mind-boggling. it’s not that he isn’t a good player, but that’s it…a good player. he ain’t winning back his starting job, and that’s probably (read: definitely) for the best. but it gets harder & harder to trade an aging, ‘unathletic’ defensively-challenged back-up PG making $8+M/yr. while it’s nice to have a competent PG duo, this team is built around the frontcourt – the PG position is one of facilitation on this team. as raptor fans, we remember all too well the horror of watching swill & roko try to run the point, but we forget that there are literally dozens of good back-up PG’s out there. shit, we saw a few of ‘em run circles & harrass BOTH our PGs all game in indy, but no one’s annointing earl watson, aj price or luther head as top nba PG’s. the raps’ PG tandem is good, but it’s not as though jose has been SO good that he’s irreplaceable. in fact, you could argue that replacing him with a ‘worse’ PG who’s more capable defensively would help them quite a bit.
Say again? You’re arguing that Banks taking Calderon’s minutes would make the Raptors a better team? The desire to throw JC under the bus is mind-boggling.
Not really under the bus.
I don’t think that many people want to trade Jose unless the Raps win the trade.
He didn’t say that . If it was possible to get a point guard who is better than Jose defensively but who can be a valid back-up guard (better than Banks) then it is a trade that BC should look at.
The fascination with DD is we have him, cheap for the next few years. I like the way Triano has handled his minutes and expect him towork hard in the offseason and to come in ready next year.
Raptors are not gonna win the championship this year. High probability not next year as well. We might just have a good youg talent here, why ship him out for what can amount to 50 cents on the dollar.
There is no way BC will trade DeRozan after all the build up>
Keep Derozan…If he trades him it will be the biggest mistake in Raptor history.
My crystal ball is broken!
He might be better in 3 years than a solid veteran shooting guard.
He could even be better than Iggy.
But no one will know until it happens. He’s not better now.
I don’t believe anyone will be upset if DeMar is still here after deadline day either!
It is next to impossible to predict DeMar’s future play. However, (from what I hear) DeMar is putting in the necessary work to ensure his success as an NBA player. One thing you can’t teach is desire and this is why DeMar should remain a Raptor. Kobe has given credit to DeMar for his desire to get better (Something that Kobe has been critical towards other young talent around the league) and DeMar is also a student of the game (very receptive to veteran and coach’s advice). This desire to work on his game, combined with his lack of ego (i.e. receptive to input) is something that many young players in NBA lack. As a result, If I were BC I would not entertain any trade scenarios involving DeMar. His natural ability combined with his work ethic is a recipe for future success.
agree
The main purpose of making a trade now, is to improve the team now. I’m sure most of us would agree that this current Raptor squad is hardly a “lock” to advance past the 1st round. So in order to show Bosh that we’re a team on the rise, we have to improve this year…even if it means giving up on DeRozan.
The alternative is having a Boshless team next year, and no guarantee that DeRozan will become that “good” player.
With Iguodala, what you see is what you get. No guesswork.
That’s why those types of trades happen.
I guarantee that DeMar won’t be a better player. Iggy is a borderline all-star every year and is 26. DeRozan will have to improve in all facets of his game to even consider being comparable to Iggy.
My projection of Demar is a poor man’s Rip Hamilton or a rich man’s Courtney Lee.
No Demar is much more athletic than rip hamilton and courtney lee
Courtney Lee has a lightning fast first step, is a good defender, and used to be able to shoot the three.
He ain’t chopped liver.
Regarding Demar…he really really needs to work on his SG skills. Shooting, ball handling, and passing. Much better to be a large SG than an undersized SF.
I hope he realizes how much work he will need to put in this summer to achieve those goals…elite ball handling, range out to the three point line, etc.
We just watched Lee. He looked like a very good young player.
No one cuts, runs, creates havoc better than Rip. Too bad about his age and contract.
DeMar still looks like a rookie most of the time – because he is.
‘A verbal veteran that’s a bit of a psychopath, can’t really think of anyone.’
That shipped sailed already. His name was Stephen jackson. Not sure if we had any discussions or the ‘chips’ to get it done but I would have moved Calderon or Turks immediately if there was any interest by GS.
Question: If Philly wanted DeRozan as part of a deal for Iguodala, would you include him? All of this is rampant speculation of course but Tim W had an interesting trade scenario the other day with Iggy involved that seemed benefical to both teams (if Philly is indeed looking to move him, which really makes no sense).
Trading DeMar gets Iggy? Done in a happy second!
Iggy could make the Raps contenders right now!
DeRozan was a great draft pick and that’s what Philly should be demanding in a trade. Cap space = lottery.
Captain Jack would have been perfect….a tough SOB who can score, defend, and would instill toughness into our team. ah well.
You really think Triano could control that psycho? Yeah, right…
Larry Brown is perfect for him.
SJ probably needs a tough old coach – or just someone sane? (Nellie must be hard to work for) But his talent would’ve looked good here.
What we need is a player than can defend well the opposing 2-3 on the 3 point line, that is tough and expert, that doens’t demand the ball in his hand every moment.
players like artest, ariza.
Butler is perfect to me. not really a 2, but a better derozan.
I don’t really want any more scoring. I want our defense to improve. Shipping out Calderon for Butler helps us upgrade the defense at the 2/3 spot (and PG…)
BTW, Butler CAN guard SGs, which is all that really matters. Our starting lineup can then shift to Butler/Hedo, with Wright off the bench. That at the very least makes our SG/SF rotation match up better with Atlanta/Orlando/Boston.
Butler is having a horrible year offensively…but has tightened up his defense to make up for it. Also, we aren’t bringing him in to be “the man” and take lots of shots. Just to defend, share the ball, and create/score sometimes. 13-15 efficient points a game with elite defense are enough for me.
Remember, he got his chops in this league as a good defender before being a decent scorer too.
Most importantly, his contract runs out in 2011. We can then have Demar assume the starting job.
I honestly don’t even mind sending a protected future first+Calderon for Caron. Our 2012 is likely to be fairly worthless if Bosh resigns.
Your analysis makes a lot of sense. Let’s beef up the defence at the 2/3 spot adn it will improve our chances at winning more games and it will makes a tougher opponent in the playoofs.
What about trading Rasho and POB for Outlaw in Portland? Aren’t they desperate for more bigs without a huge commitment on salary?
Outlaw is a 3/4 tweener, right? What role do you envision him playing for us?
Outlaw has a strong reputation as a solid 3 defender.
i wouldn’t get caught up in the ‘where would he play’ dilemna. he’s a baller. he’ll fit.
Raps fans can only hope for that one! Outlaw would be a nice pick up.
is there even one reason why portland does that? i mean, they are getting NOTHING for outlaw, who’s actually an above-average all-around player getting lost in the shuffle with all the wings vying for minutes.
remember, dealing with pritchard is difficult, he’s under the never-ending delusion that he’s got 6 allstars & 4 future HoFers on his roster. he still thinks he made the right decision when he picked oden over durant.
I’m not sure Portland would accept rasho & POBS but they’re in need of bigs sinec Oden and Priz got hurt. it would be a short term fix. they have plenty of talents in the 2/3 position, so it’d be nice to pry away one of their guys to shore up our d.
sure. but the only big they’d probably be interested in (that the raps would actually consider trading away) is likely amir (friendly contract, doesn’t need touches, hustle/energy & rebounding). but amir alone isn’t going to bring anything back (esp. from a douche like pritch).
but hey, jose & amir (or evans?) for bayless, webster (or outlaw) & the vanilla gorilla ‘works.’
Portland actually needs legit low post centers – not just any big man – they have aldridge and a bunch of tweeners playing on the blocks and If that’s my team I’m scared shitless come playoff time…
He’s a bit too big for that. Iggy is a better fit than Butler because Butler would put Turk on the bench. That’s not where the Raps want him. I want him on another team, but that’s beside the point.
trading turkoglu is a tough proposition. once you trade him and get that guy back for him, your going to be like, now we need a guy who can keep the ball moving take and make a big shot who has playoff experience creates mismatches and can dish a little, maybe turk’s not an allstar but when he plays with an allstar or two, he’s awesome, he’s produced, his teams have won, etc. and if his lack of caring at this point in the season isn’t totally obvious, let me tell you, hedo turkoglu does not care at this point in the season, he is working the offense, getting used to guys, shooting the open one relaxedly, and generally not exerting himself ONE HUNDRED AND TEN PERCENT!!!! every frickin’ night. because he’s a lazy no good? maybe. because he knows that with the team gelling, secure in their conference standings, and almost certainly playoff bound that he doesn’t need to lose his mind being the awesomeest right now because there is a lot of season left and he’s better rested? maybe. or because the four big games against new jersey each year just don’t really feel like big games to a guy who’s played elimination games against teams like the lakers…must wait on hedo…he’s here for the playoffs, he’s here for the big shots…let’s wait until we get there then evaluate.
ps: there have been no big shots for the raptors this year…with the exception of carter’s game 7 rim out against philly i don’t know if there’s ever been one…
pss. how about calderon banks amir reggie and rasho for nash and stoudemire. suns take a pick from us and blow it up. waive rasho, who re-signs 30 days later (watch out for this option) after PMB fills in on the front line. same starters w/ nash amare weems belly rasho on the 2nd unit…why not?…but come on steve, its me, its bryan…
The Rasho trade, waive, and recover is a nice strategy. We see other teams do it. Why not the Raps!
trading turk is a tough proposition because he’s old, slow, doesn’t defend, and is on the hook for 4 more years after this one at $10M+ per. oh, and apparently he coasts through the regular season ’cause the raps are just so gawd-damn good they’ve good their ‘conference positioning’ all but sewn-up.
in case you haven’t been paying attention, this is the toronto fucking raptors. since when do regular season games not matter? that’s a privelege for teams that have, y’know, actually accomplished SOMETHING…and even then, most of those teams still play hard, ’cause they understand the importance of not only being at your peak as a team, but of playoff positioning.
Despite the Turk’s shitty play, we are still #5 in the East, which is pretty much where everyone expected us to be.
I agree with you, the regular season is very important for the Raptors, but we don’t need Hedo right now. We will, however, need him in the playoffs.
B.C. Should stand pat, this team is finally starting to gel, don’t mess with the chemistry!
While it makes for interesting discussion throwing out all of these hypothetical trade ideas the reality of the salary cap makes trades extremely difficult, if not impossible- I would be surprised if anything happens though we can hope the somehow we get gifted an impact player for virtually nothing like Detroit did it 2004 when they obtained Rasheed Wallace or LA did a couple of years ago when they acquired Pau Gasol.
Yertu – Derozan projects to…….Iggy. That’s why trading Jose and Demar for him is foolish. However, I would love for Iggy to be a Raptor, but Philly is looking to save money AND I don’t think the Raptors should give up anyone in their top 6 (Bosh, Bargnani, Jack, Jose, Johnson, Derozan) to get a trade done.
I think Colangelo needs to focus on taking advaantage of the poor teams.
Washington is the best example. No fans, no cash, on the hook for way too much tax.
Here is something that I think BC should try to see if Washington will take:
Rasho, Amir, Toine, POB.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzchtaz
All of the guys are on 1 yr deals, and will give the Wiz major cap relief. Butler would have to adjust to playing the 2, but I think with a guy like Hedo at the 3, this could really work.
Starters:
Bosh, Bargnani, Butler, Hedo, Jack
Bench:
Jose, Demar, Reggie, Sonny
I hate giving up Amir in this trade, and its putting a lot of trust that Evans will be just as good, but its the only trade that will give Washington $9 million of expiring deals.
Good Buyers at the trade deadline never give up any substance. Its all about taking advantage of the weak’s desire for lotto position and cap savings.
if derozan ‘projects’ to iggy (i.e. it’s an unknown whether he will or not), then why not go after the KNOWN quantity (iggy) and let some other team gamble on DD becoming as good (or better)? realistically, how much better do you project DD to be over iggy, and how long will it take for him to get to that level?
it’s kind of like this year’s draft; there’s really only one guy being touted as a sure-thing (wall). most pundits agree that no matter who wins the lottery, they should take him, even if they already have an established star PG (i.e. if NOH won the draft, they should draft wall & trade paul). which i don’t get…paul is a once-in-a-lifetime PG. wall PROJECTS to be a once-in-a-lifetime PG…but there are no guarantees. what sense does it make to trade a guy who has already established themselves to be the player you’re hoping the guy you obtain/keep will become? now, the example is extreme, since most of the teams fighting for the #1 pick need a PG (i’m sure NJ wouldn’t think twice about moving harris & drafting wall).
No one is going to take Johnson’s expiring contract unless they want a salary dump, which is what the Pistons did when they moved him to the Bucks.
The only exception would be a playoff team that might take him as a backup big guy who would be out of their rotation but brought in only for insurance against an injury to one their regular rotation big guys.
I seriously doubt that Johnson is tradeable before the deadline unless it is for a salary dump come July 1st.
Since the Wiz have a full roster, they’d have to cut/waive/buyout 3 guys. Makes this interesting.
Raptors could pick up who they wanted back in a month – but Raps would be in tuff trading away 3 bigs + a wing and getting back a wing while they waited a month.
I would be very wary about giving up on Calderon. For me it would absolutely take a player the caliber of Iguodala to do this. Having Calderon running the second unit is a major strength for the Raptors. How many times have we seen the second unit come in and kick-start the team after the starting five come out of the gate slow. Getting serious bench production is a big reason why this team has improved so much in the last month or so. Now, if we could package Turkoglu for a really athletic 3 or 2 than I would be in favour of that.
how many times has jose been CLEARLY outplayed by PGs we all assume to be vastly inferior to him? my point is that it’s not overly difficult to acquire a decent back-up PG for less $; they may not be as proficient offensively, but more than likely, they’ll make up for that by not being a total sieve on D.
“how many times has jose been CLEARLY outplayed by PGs we all assume to be vastly inferior to him
Easy answer. Almost never. But great of you to throw out wild, baseless accusations to prove your reasoning.
i guess we’ll just ignore the other night in indy then. why, that IS easier. you’re right, i’m sure that’s the only time.
umm you do realize Jack started that game right.. and was the player covering Watson. Jose spent his limited time (20 minutes do to injury) covering price who scored 8 pts (who went 3 for 4) and had 2 assists vs 5 pts (2 for 6) and 8 assists.
Besides the fact it was 1 game and he wasnt ‘CLEARLY’ outplayed… its so easy to SAY things, its another to back them up.
true enough. but tell me…did he look like an $8M/yr PG in that game? shouldn’t we expect a bit more than to play the likes of AJ price to a stalemate? or is that the new bar? as long as he’s not worse than AJ price, he’s worth every penny!!
Kobe Bryants last game…..2 for 12, 5 pts, 2 rebs, 6 assists
Time for the Lakers to ship him out. He set a new bar for ineptitude. How much is he getting payed again.
Yeah see how ridiculous that sounds.
Calderon, Turkoglu, DeRozan and Banks for Kobe
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ygv92zs
How well did Jack play in Indy when he was owned by Watson ?
How well did Calderon play when he started vs Indy in TO, before his injury,7ast,21pts in a 123 point win.
Nobody shuts down anyone one on one all the time, especially guards.
you should lay off the doug smith crack pipe…
ouch
everytime I see your name Yertu, I think of this scene from family guy (phresh part)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3wKtVwOqkk
So I guess you don’t want us mentioning the times when Calderon outplayed, or at least played really well, against opposing PG’s who most feel are superior, like Chris Paul and Derrick Rose. No, that wouldn’t advance your argument, would it?
No, we don’t; because the total is under 10. Easily. Meaning it’s irrelevant.. he gets abused like a Mexican tour donkey.
No, it’s actually not.
Calderon is a very good player, the second-best on the Raps, if you use ORTG:DRTG (123:115). True, he’s a bad defender, but he creates a tremendous amount of offense for the Raps, in many ways he’s like Bosh in that regard. If they trade Caldy, they damn well better get a useful player in return.
How exactly are these two quantities calculated?
For that you would need to consult Dean Oliver’s book “Basketball on Paper”. But the number refers to points scored/points allowed per 100 possessions. It obviously depends on your teammates. But I’ve found that it is an invaluable indicator of just how a player is influencing his team, since the number is available for the individual player and the team at large simultaneously. You can see who’s really hurting a team and who’s really helping it. It also creates a +/- stat. Right now the Raps are -1 as a team (rounding up). There are only 3 players in the regular rotation doing better than that. Amir johnson, Jose Calderon, Chris Bosh. Jarrett Jack is even with the team. Every body else is hurting the Raps a little (Bargs and Turk) or a lot (most everybody else).
Nevermind, the same basketball-reference.com source..
Anyway, there is a huge discrepancy between the offensive rating provided by basketball-reference.com and basketballvalue.com. I’d be more inclined to trust the latter site, since the calculation is transparent.
Anyway, according to this resource (http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2009-2010&id=331), Jose’s ORTG/DRTG is 114/115.83.
When he is off the court, the team is rated 109.53/109.95. So according to this calculation, he substantially increases the offense, but hurts the defense even more.
Compare this to Jack, who has ORTG/DRTG ratings of 111.89/112.55. When he is off the floor, the team is rated 110.88/112.41. So he improves the offense by ~2 points and slightly hurts the defense.
Anyway, by this rating, Calderon looks pretty expendable..
See the rest of the player ratings here:
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
Btw, playing around with this some more…it is quite amazing how good a defender Banks is. His “I’m a defensive game changer” quote was not a joke.
This blog post here by Dan Rosenbaum also seems to have picked this up early:
http://danrosenbaum.blogspot.com/2005/08/defense-on-perimeter-what-do-adjusted.html
Surely we can make him not a drain on offense by only running him with Belli or Turk? His only job is to bring up the ball and handoff to Turk/Belli. If we do that, he can then be turned into a more than adequate PG.
Hmmm.
I’m not sure I trust these basketballvalue numbers. It’s offensive/defensive rating either way, I mean that’s Dean Oliver’s number. So both sites should have the same numbers. And yet, basketball-reference for the Raps at large has 111.6:112.4 and basketballvalue has 111.49:112.49.
Also, it occurs to me that the Raps can’t be that much better defensively without Calderon. They suck either way. On value, Jack is several points better than Caldy, on Reference they’re the same. On value, Cranks has a much better rating than Caldy or Jack. On Reference, it’s only a difference of a couple of points. Obviously Cranks is the best defender of the 3, but once you get past any of them, you’ve got points automatically because there’s no post defender, no one to guard the rim, and no help defender (triple whammy) behind them.
I agree 100% that Cranks might be a useful player with no ball handling duties. The reason he’s been slammed so much in the past few years is likely that he’s been asked to do something he can’t (namely, create offense for others). If that’s the case, then I’d argue for trading a major piece for a lane-plugger.
I’m more inclined to trust basketballvalue.com since I can at least see where they are getting the numbers from (i.e, the points scored and possessions used are then divided to get a rating). Basketballreference.com doesn’t provide this information..
Calderon would be a great player on another team with athletic defenders and shot blockers. E.g., the Lakers. But given his inability to stay in front of his man, our poor team defense and lack of shot blocking (aside from Amir), then we can’t really play him with the starters.
The Raps should go after Tayshun Prince. His numbers are down this year and his team sucks which makes him a good candiate to buy low. He would fill what we are looking for; A veteran presence with playoff games under his belt and the ability to play multiple positions. I see him fitting in perfectly with the raps. Plus, I don’t we think we would need to give up any of our core. A deal of Amir, Wright and Banks for Prince works. Detroit gets some cap relief this we get player that can play Wright’s and Amir’s position.
YES! (Albert, M., 1991)
prince from a couple years ago – without hesitation. prince today…yikes. hasn’t he missed a chunk of time with an effed up back?
He has missed a chunk of time, but I think that has more to do with the Pistons poor play and no need to rush him back. He’s playing right now and averging 30+ mins (Pistons showcasing?). Even if his back issues come back we’ll have his contract to dangle next year when it expires.
Ya, I mean, it’s just a back injury that has caused Prince to miss a huge chunk of games after going 6 seasons without missing one. And really, back injuries are never anything to worry about, are they?
I think our need is to find a really good wing player who can play both the SG and the SF (like Iggy, Howard, and Caron) since we need to cover our asses if a)Hedo doesnt work out longterm and/or b)Derozan turns out to be a chump…
Prince, Outlaw, etc are nice but they find their effectiveness when playing one of the 2 forward positions – which happen to be occupied by Bosh/Hedo/Bargs/Amir…
Not sure if I trust him, but Hollinger’s trade analysis predicts that the Raps would do worse with Butler on the team.
Even when I keep Amir and Toine, and substitute in Banks, Hollinger STILL predicts that Butler will hurt the Raps win total!!!!!!!
that’s just based on PER.
I like the idea of shopping Calderon. However, it’s unrealistic to think that he would fetch someone like Iguodala or Butler. GM’s watch Sports Center and read box scores. They know Calderon is an $8 million a year back up to Jarrett Jack.
A realistic idea is to trade him for cap space. Like the LA trade that other writers have floated. Bringing back someone like Morrison (expiring) and Farmar (not sure if expiring, but solid back up).
Rationale – let’s be realistic. The ceiling for this team is one playoff round win, which would be a very successful season. This is not a championship team. Iggy or Butler don’t turn this into a championship team.
But, if we have some cap space for next summer and season, it gives BC some options. Sign a player or two; trade for a longer contract; maybe take advantage of a team wanting to rid a star with an unfavorable contract.
Options people, options.
That is a ridiculous statement.
IGGY makes the Raptors a CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER. Easily. Iggy, Bosh, Bargs are as good of a Big 3 as any in the East.
Think about it:
vs Cleve: Iggy can slow LeBron down, and Bosh/Bargs have consistently abused Cleveland’s front court
vs Bos: KG looks like a shell of himself (did you see Haslem blow by him, HASLEM!) Bosh will put the hurt on him next time, and Iggy is better than either Paulie Pierce or Ray “no longer Jesus Shuttlesworth” Allen
vs Magic: Hahahaha, well VC has a beer gut and is such a cancer that Orlando is a better team with JJ Reddick in the lineip! So yeah, Iggy would handle that fool with ease. Bosh and Andrea have shown they can hold their own against D12 and Rashard
Agreed. If not a “championship contender”, at the very least, the Raps would be a eastern conference contender. And I would take it in a heartbeat!
And you honestly think Philly would trade Iggy for Calderon?
For the right pieces (prospects and capspace) YES
You `throw in’ DeRozan and someone else, they might.
They are trying to reduce longterm payroll, not add..
No way they want Calderon.
They’d have to consider DeRozan and Calderon. DeRozan’s contract is not a liability, and he’ll probably be as good as Iggy is in a few years.
And no matter how much Raptor fans want to turn on him, Jose is probably one of the best point guard options on the market right now.
Calderon, DeMar and Wright for Igoudala does decrease Philadelphia’s longterm payroll. Calderon’s contract is one year shorter than Igoudala’s, and Antoine’s obviously will give them some relief this summer. It’s not an expiring contact, but I’m not convinced that’s what all they want. If they did, I think he’d already be in Cleveland or Houston. I think Philly wants young talent back, and DeRozan might be enough to entice them. Who knows.
AI for DD/Amir/Antoine/Banks works on trade machine. Young talent in DD, almost $6 million in expiring contracts this year…Banks’ $4.5 million contract expires next year.
Don’t know if Philly would do that, but I’d do it in a second if I were the Raptors. I’d even throw in a first round pick to get it done. To be able to get Igoudala and keep Calderon? I don’t see any downside to this trade for the Raptors.
I think we’re 2 years away from contending.
But we’re 1 player away from winning a first round series.
I’d prefer to keep DD, Weems and Amir and Belli and let them develop into the quality rotation players they are becoming.
Quality rotation players don’t necessarily move a team into contention. They had better develop into more than that!
Or a trade to get the quality rotation player they are currently missing from the starting line up now if possible would be nice!
+1
I think we need to find out what this team can do. It’s only been together for 3+ months. Patience!
2010-2011 is going to be very interesting with the cap going down, high marquee free-agents, and teams with money issues. I’d prefer the Raptors to stand pat with personnel as much as possible this year and then re-evaluate in the off-season. I suspect that there could be some minimum salary players who will be very good bargains.
Agree v. much. The new cba is going to throw a wrench into the cap and how players are going to be valued going forward (even the good ones). Each tier of player groupings are going to fall at least a notch or two on the salary scale (eg. exception type money is never going to go to the likes of a Kapono or Jefferies etc.). It is why there is much desperation amongst teams with the bloated long term contracts. Deals that will be available just before midnight of Feb 18 are going to be boggling (if one needs to be made).
Patience is a luxury we don’t have if our goal is to ensure Bosh resigns. If a move is available that would put is in the top 4 teams in the East, it HAS to be done in the next two weeks. Can’t wait until next to see how our bench players pan out, only to lose in the 1st roung (again), and Bosh to look elsewhere.
What most people don’t realize is that good teams usually only go 8-9 players deep (at the most) once playoff time starts. If our current rotation consists of Wright, Calderon, Weems, Belli, Amir, and eventually Evans…that’s waaaaay too many pieces to develop any rhythm in the playoffs. The excess pieces must be used to strengthen our starting unit’s wing play.
As far as identifying who these excess players are, well that’s up to Triano and Colangelo to decide.
“If a move is available that would put is in the top 4 teams in the East, it HAS to be done in the next two weeks.”
There is no realistic move that would vault us over any of the Big 4, other than time. Atlanta spent the last 5-9 years gelling, Orlando and Cleveland several years themselves, and Boston is a team of HoFers. Unless the current players can perform at their absolute best the rest of the way, a big move is the only other option, and that kind of big move is what gave us this current project. To suggest another big move might set it right is just silly.
“What most people don’t realize is that good teams usually only go 8-9 players deep (at the most) once playoff time starts.”
Yes, but what you’re confusing is that we aren’t actually more than 8 deep. The reason for our “depth” is the fact that we haven’t had anyone truly stick out from the crowd. Assuming everyone’s healthy, Jack, Calderon, Turkoglu, Bosh, Bargnani, and Johnson are our top six. Have fun trying to pick two from our four sub-par wings (DeRozan, Weems, Belinelli, Wright). Another big man (Evans) would probably have to be included as the 9th due to Johnson’s fouls.
Considering their respective issues, DeRozan probably has the most value out of the three. We like Weems, yes, but nobody is going to trade much for him given the small sample size, and his contract size can be both a bonus and a detriment as well. Wright won’t be much more than an expiring contract, and Belinelli is filler. I know if anyone can get something done, it’s B.C., but I wish him luck trying to upgrade any of the 4 spots other than the obvious one (DeRozan) with our bit parts.
+1.
Also, our top 6 isn’t particularly deep.. Bosh is at worst a top 2 PF, Turk a top 15 SF, but then the rest drops off dramatically. Jack and Calderon are average starters/very good backup level PGs. Amir is a very good backup big.
I’d actually say that Wright is our second-best wing, assuming he can continue to be a positive offensively.
But yeah, we don’t have a lot of good tradeable assets right now. I don’t know of any GM stupid enough to give back a good asset for Calderon. And trading DeMar for a Caron-level player seems like a bad idea.
I think our best option is to identify a “bad contract” player who we think will be rejuvenated here. By bad contract, I mean a Nocioni sort of guy. Basically, a SG/SF version of Nocioni.
but the big question is: will bosh stay? if he leaves then that leaves a big hole to fill and lots of doubts to whether we can be contenders without him.
but…if we make the 1st round with the current roster and at least compete, and bosh stays, then MLSE and BC would have every reason to go into luxury tax next year, with the missing piece(s) needed to take us over the hump. not to mention vc, shaq and boston will be 1 year older, and so will our younger, more inexperienced guys.
that’s why i say stay with this lineup, find a way to get consistent effort from them every night, build up team chemistry even more, bust our asses in the playoffs, then hope and pray that bosh stays.
Trading Calderon for Butler is not a lateral move at best. Jose is only going to play 20 minutes a game for the rest of the season if he stays here and if he’s traded for Butler who will play 34-38, how is that a lateral move? Butler will obviously make a bigger impact. Terrible argument. Not to mention the overrating of Jose continues. He lost his starting spot to Jarrett Jack, come on he’s not that good. If you can get Butler for him, take it and run. WOW! Some people
That’s a great point!
We saw how ineffective having two PG play 24 min each in the playoffs is (see Raps vs Nets, 2007) compared to having one play 36 min alongside a starting-caliber wing player for 36 min.
Having Jack and Jose is great to protect against injuries during the regular season. But I think we’re seeing that BC learned the lesson that, in the playoff, it’s better to have two great starters than two rotating PG’s.
My recollection is that TJ and Jose were our top two players in that series.
They were, but they also weren’t on the court together for more than 2-3 min per game.
Jose is not going to play 20 mpg the rest of the season. He’s been averaging close to 25 a game since his return, has spearheaded the majority of the comebacks the Raptors have had when they’ve fallen behind in the first and is the main reason why the Raptor bench generally outperforms their counterparts. Calderon is coming off the bench because he helps the bench produce, which Jack didn’t really do, as well. Plus, having Jack paired with Turkoglu works better because it allows Turkoglu to handle the ball more, with Jack being more of a combo guard than a true PG.
And if Butler is trade, how on earth will he average 34-38 mpg (where are you getting these numbers???)? With Turkoglu getting around 35, DeRozan getting 20 and at least Belinelli, Wright or Weems combining for at least 15, that leaves nowhere close to 34-38 minutes for Butler. Besides, Butler is a 3, so I’m not exactly sure where people think he’s going to be able to get a lot of minutes.
And you do realize that this is not the same Butler from a couple of years ago? He’s overweight and has frustrated the Wizards coaching staff, and hasn’t played more than 67 games since 05-06.
I think you might be overrating Butler and underrating Calderon.
+1, Butler is not the answer for this squad
Calderon – I think the Raps need to keep him, because he makes the 2nd unit tick and the way the 2nd unit outplays opponents’ 2nd units is a huge advantage for the Raps
Turkoglu – I would love to find a 3 or 4 team deal that sends Turk back to Orlando and nets the Raps a more athletic wing, such as Iggy, Howard or Butler.
I would like to see Colangelo make a couple smaller deals if he can’t work a bigger trade involving Turk. Here are a couple ideas:
1) trade Evans/Banks/O’Bryant to Philly for Dalembert – Philly saves nearly $2M this year (will be prorated for remainder of the season) and saves $2.5M next season. Evans/Banks will also give Philly 2 approx $5 expiring contracts to use as bargaining chips in future trades this summer or next season, while ridding them of Dalembert’s contract without having to give up Iggy. Toronto gets a solid backup C who can rebound and play great D. Even if Toronto includes a 2nd round draft pick, I think it would be a good deal.
2) trade Nesterovic/Wright for a young player or expiring contract or draft pick(s)
Starters – Bargnani/Bosh/Turk/DeRozan/Jack
2nd Unit – Dalembert/Johnson/Bellinelli/Weems/Calderon
Bench – will need to sign 2/3 players to get to 13 min
I don’t think you understand that we are weak at the guard position defensively… trading wright would be stupid unless he’s involved in a trade for a better wing defender… we don’t need a dalembert..
Sammy d’s contract ends after next year too. I dont think they would make that trade just to save $4 million considering Sam is a rotation player and the three you mentioned arent. You would probably need to sweeten the pot significantly
Iguodala would look great on this team coming off of screens, cutting to the net and being an off-the-ball nuisance for other teams. Hedo would be able, hopefully, to quickly build chemistry with a player like him.
Rather than address the wing-play, I would hopefully try to find a Perkins-type defender down-low. I know it would cut into Amir’s playing time, but I doubt Reggie Evans fits that role. In that sense, Gortat is a good fit, but his contract is just too ridiculous. We need someone we can put in for post defence, solid rebounding and someone who can throw around their weight. Amir is a great big off the bench because of his athleticism and hustle – now I think we need a big bruiser who boxes out and lays a hurt down with his size. From I can tell, Reggie rebounds, but other than ball-grabbing, he doesn’t play defence too well.
All in all though, team-building takes time. Unless its Iguodala or that kind of post-presence, I am not interested. Let’s see what these guys come out with after three days rest – I am willing to pass off the past couple of games to fatigue if they play strong on Sunday.
(Aside: if Powe ever gets back into the Cavs rotation, I think they’ll have enough defence to lock down even the Lakers…)
I would make any of these deals… Which probably means the opposing GM’s wouldn’t. Just sayin’
Iggy is an interesting player, but would his opinion of his worth or ability let him be behind Turk, Bargnani, and Bosh in line. I don’t think so from what I’ve read of his ego.
Why would he be behind Bargnani and Turkoglu, since he’s actually better than them?
Crazy trade idea that I honestly think would address the needs of all 4 teams and works on the ESPN Trade Machine
to TORONTO – Iguodala & Dalembert
to ORLANDO – Turkoglu & Evans
to CLEVELAND – Lewis
to PHILADELPHIA – Ilgauskas & Nesterovic & Banks & Hickson & Moon & 1st-Round Pick (from TOR) & 1st-Round Pick (from CLE)
TORONTO – gets stud starting SG (move DeRozan to starting SF), gets good backup C, gets rid of 3 redundant players (Evans/Banks/Nesterovic), for Turk and 1st-Round pick
ORLANDO – gets Turk back, gets rid of one of Lewis/Carter, gets a decent backup PF which makes Bass expendable (he wants a trade)
CLEVELAND – gets a PF who can shoot from outside, will get Ilgauskas back when he is cut by Philly, for Hickson & 1st-Round pick
PHILLY – when they cut Ilgauskas/Nesterovic, they will free up over $15M cap space next season (and prorated amount for this season), gets decent PF prospect in Hickson, gets 2 1st-Round picks and will have 2 expiring contracts to trade this offseason (Moon & Banks), for Iggy & Dalembert
Turk cannot be traded back to Orlando this year.. we have to wait till next year to trade him to Orlando.
The two guys I’d like the Raps to target is Rip Hamilton to upgrade our shooting guard position (doable because of Ben Gordon) and Marcus Camby. I’d love to get his shotblocking which would be key for the post-season.
ewww…rip hamilton? decent enough player, but waaay overpaid. everyone thinks it was the billups-for-AI trade that started detroit’s demise, but it was really handing rip that gawd-awful contract that started that ship sinking.
The Pistons actually want to trade Rip Hamilton but aren’t finding takers for his contract. This according to ESPN Insider.
So we can get him cheap.
I like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrHWEq6hor4
This gave me goosebumps. This is what I wish the Raptors can become some day.
Best move Raptors could make to make them a title contender in my opinion is:
Trade Jose + Hedo for an expiring contract = T Mac
Here me out:
Not going to win a title this year.
I realize this does not make us better this unless Tmac can play which I doubt.
Resign Bosh and still have enough cap space to sign a big name 2/3 in the offseason Joe Johnson maybe.
I know people will say Bosh will walk but he is not stupid if Collangello sits him down and says I did this to be a contender from 2010 and on I am going after Wade/lebron/Johnson to add to Bosh/Andrea/Jack/Derozan/hopefully Amir….He is just a likely to stay as if we have a first round exit and no cap space nex year, most likely we would not even resing Amir.
I know it will never happen as Houston would not make that deal but Cap space over Jose and Hedo’s contracts is no brainer to me…
Call me crazy but Half a T-mac might be better then those 2 softies this year aswell.
Any way we can rid ourselves of 2 bad contracts for cap space to add to our hopefully a YOUNG core next year would be MASSIVE…
PG’s grow on trees think about all the PGs that came into the league last year….
Cap space and options in 2010…..
Jack
DD
T/Mac this year Joe Johnson next
Bosh
Andrea
Take one step backward this season to make a huge leap forward next season…
Again BC will never do this but maybe he should…
So basically, you want Colangelo to ask Bosh to wait….even longer. In the hopes that, for some bizarre reason, they can lure someone like Joe Johnson, who would turn down more money, to sign with them.
The Raptors have had cap room twice in the last four summers, and they had to overpay Turkoglu to come. And you also know that half the league will be below the cap this summer.
Colangelo would never do it and Raptor fans should thank their lucky starts he wouldn’t.
Why do people keep coming up with all these ridiculous Hedo trade scenarios? He’s NOT going to be traded for dozens of reasons so just let it go people. BC is not going to trade the one and only free agent to ever want to come to Toronto half-way through the first season of his contract just because he hasn’t lived up to some peoples expectations. If he did that no one would ever choose to come here again. BC is all about building relationships and a solid reputation as a players guy.
Mr Rye…
like I said BC will not trade Hedo…
However if Hedo was moved in a three way deal to make us better chance to WIN A TITLE…..
I don’t want to be a 5-8 seed for years to come….
Hedo is not going to get better….He is going to get worse…
We need to add to a young core….
Free agents will always come if you pay…There contract is guranteed…
Hedo had 2 fuken choices Portland or Toronto….
So if Portland trades Andrea Miller do you really think no one is going to go there again…. Silly…
Now if he trade every free agent he ever signed different story….
Players sign to get money if they were that worried about not getting traded they would take less money and get a no trade clause…
I am just saying we are not just a tweak away from contender.
I want to see a good young team for years to come….
Paying Hedo and Jose will not help and as the years goes by it will get worse not better….
Turkoglu will not improve, but there’s a very good chance the rest of the team will. They have the fourth youngest rotation in the league.
As Turkoglu declines, you can replace his production.
And Portland is a more attractive place for free agents. Players WANT to play there. Toronto has had very little luck on the free agent market. Ariza turned down more money with the Raptors to play in Houston.
And if Turkoglu had two choices, how many team do you think are going to want him with that contract?
I just realized something … we have been pre-occupied with the issue of Bosh staying or going. I just thought about this and i think the focus should be Jose. If jose is traded i think this is or indicator of Bosh being gone. Jose and Bosh are the only hold overs and cited as our ‘franchise players” (see Karl Malone, John Stockton and no i am not comparing the two this is just an example of two player franchises”).
it make sense that Colangelo would start with Jose first and the reason the Igoudala trade scenarios are in fruition. Toronto and Colangelo have always been inticed with this typ of player since (and during the vince days) …
Igoudala would be a perfect constellation prize … Derozan still would be here and would grow as a complement. (to be honest i beleive is a small forward more than a guard and is more josh howard than Igoudala or gerald wallace if we need to compare) … LOL so i will wait fro everyone to rip the nubbie
Hedo is so overrated and overpaid…Bosh does not have to wait…
We are not going anywhere this year.
Atleast if this trade was done we would have a chance to make some real noise next year…
We are at best a 5-8 seed for years to come with Hedo and Jose making 20 milish between them.
Everyone is getting way to excited about us pumping teams and making a run against a soft schedule…
We are a good team but not a great one.
I am trying to think of ways to make us one…
So with half the Boston team ready for the geriatric ward don’t you think the Raptors have a 50/50 chance to win their division next year which will guarantee them at least 4th place in the playoffs ? .
Right now the Nets are leading Boston in Boston 54/49 , see.
No I don’t…
I think the Celtics will win the division again this year…
They have not been close to healthy all year and they are still easily tops….2 or 3 years down the road maybe but not next year.
If we still have Jose and Hedo….
Unless Derozan becomes a star….Which is possible…
Just trade Hedo before he gets worse…
I understand why he was signed to show Bosh were serious about winning however just like when we got Oneal its time to slightly alter the path to where we need to get too.
NJ beating Boston in the 3rd quarter means shit by the way…
The Celtics are still Legit and as much at it pains me to say were are not legit title contenders The Raptors are not…
next year how do we add to this team if we still ahve Hedo and Turk here someone please answer me…
Reality is we have half our team locked. Jack Bargs and Turk are this team, if we sign Bosh we’re in decent shape. If we sign a free agent Wing, much better shape.
Hedo is a quality vet, with more playoff experience than the Starting lineup combined. We signed him to prove to Bosh we mean business. And we aren’t signing Bosh on the condition we take home a title next season.
So if it takes 2 for Jack and Bargs to mature into they’re abilities, 2 years for us to sign or grow a wing player and 2 years of Turk slowly deteriorating we would be no different than the Lakers 3 seasons ago. Our team would be at its pinnacle and the previous 3-5 years would have come to fruition.
Absolutely no reason for for Philly to jump at this but,
Riding ourselves of the most expensive BackUp PG/Ticket Usher and bringing in the caliber player of an Iggy is Wright around the corner.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ykx2dk6
yeah, they’d never do that.
I’d be wiling to give up DeRozan, though As much as we like DeRozan, having Iguodala makes either him or Weems expendable.
The major points have been made somewhere above, this deadline our goal is showing Bosh commitment to competition.
We are not a trade away from top tier contention but a move that’s available that furthers our ambition to compete in the coming year(s) and is tabled now out of necessity on the trading partners end is good reason to make a move.
And given our talent, pieces, and current success Calderon, Wright and Johnson fit that puzzle. My preference would be to keep Amir, but he’s due a contract and if we couldn’t ask him to sign for relatively cheap he’s not a long term Raptor in any event.
This is a challenge for all the the people that wouldn’t trade Calderon and parts for Iguodala:
Name all the other shooting guards and small forwards you would take over Iggy that are not named Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, Bryant, or Wade.
Now subtract the ones that will probably never be available.
It’s a short list. If you think Rudy Gay or OJ Mayo might magically become available, you’re dreaming. Joe Johnson and Brandon Roy are close to elite.
Trading Calderon and parts for a player of Iguodala’s caliber is a great deal.
Any trade involving the Raps aquiring Iggy would have to involve a third team because we don’t have a large expiring cotract(s) to offer them.
Maybe we do something drastic, like take on Dalembert as well. His contract is as ugly as sin but he would be great off the bench.
Much ado about nothing.
or we can get caron butler who is a great defender
With access to a time machine, yes.
So, why so much hate on Hedo, he’s a good player and the last game he played he scored 26 points against the Knicks. I think he is starting to turn a corner, I wouldn’t say goodbye to Hedo just yet.
No trades. Play the season out then:
This summer sign three guys
1. CB4
2. Johnson
3. Joe Johnson – He would worth going into the luxury tax range.
Signing those three and adding them to the rest of the roster could mean NBA finals in 2011.
“Signing those three and adding them to the rest of the roster could mean NBA finals in 2011.”
…and mean that Colangelo had somehow been able to circumvent the CBA. Amazing!
All these trade proposals are lovely..
but all that we really need is a vetern player or two..
Sort of like what bucks did with stackhouse.
And if you guys really wanna see a trade, I suggest NOT loosing amir Johnson..even tho Evans is coming back from injury and is an awesome rebounder and good shit-talker who gives fits to opposing bigs. He is NOT able to block shots! Remember; we need to keep Amir Johnson by any means because he can get up there and block a shot or two since CB4 n Andrea aren’t really blockers.
I think it would be great if you could get Kirk Hinrich from the bulls. He’s a good shooter and could play either wing position plus he’s better defender than any of our guards(aside from Mr. Wright). I dont see the bulls wanting anything we have to offer besides CB tho and thats not gonna happen. Igoudala would probably be a good fit but his jump shots scares me and we get enough scares from guys like Marco and Hedo and we already have his type of athleticism with DD and Sonny, so I wouldn’t give up a whole lot for him. Im wishing that we didn’t trade that 1st round pick in the JO trade because Roy Hibbert give us a very good defensive post presence off the bench. At the end of the day I don’t think Colangelo will make a move because he’s gonna give Hedo some more time and he wants to see what Reggie Evans is going to give us and by the time he figures all this out, the trade deadline will have passed.
I would really like to see Mike Miller if we could get him without giving up much. He’s a fantastic rebounder and creator at his position.
In all honesty, if you were to switch Hedo with Miller, the team would be just as succesful, likely more because Miller is more efficient and would help our rebounding woes. That and we would be paying millions less for him.
Caron just helped kill the Magic tonight..
Try this:
TOR gets Iggy
PHI gets Vujacic, DeRozan, one of Farmar/Brown, 2nd round pick(s) and cash
LAL gets Calderon
Everybody gets what they want.
Why does everything think the Lakers would want Calderon? The triangle offense isn’t really good for PG’s like Calderon because it takes the ball out of his hands. In L.A., Calderon would mostly be playing off the ball, with Kobe running the offense. That pretty much takes away his biggest strength.
Besides, the Lakers would have to also throw in Morrison for the salaries to match.
This works:
Toronto gets: Igoudala
Philly gets: DeRozan, Vujacic, Morrison
Lakers get: Calderon
The Raptors could even throw in Wright or Nesterovic. Who knows whether the other teams would go for that.
Possible Lakers rationale: Could be Calderon is an exceptional shooter? 40/50/90. And a good team player. And a national teammate of Pau Gasol. And Fisher is as old as the hills.
That’s an innovative trade – seems to work for eveyone.
A guy like Iggy makes a lot of sense as a) he can defend his position well; and b) doesn’t need plays run for him on offence as he gets stuff on boards and transition/fast break, so he wouldn’t upset the mix of our two main scorers CB4 and Bargs. Seems a good team guy too as Iverson back can’t thrill him but not hearing about him sulking or anything. Now what do we have to give up to get him? that’s where Colangelo earns his money.
You say that regarding the Josh Howard rumours,”where there’s smoke,there’s fire”.In Josh Howard’s case,there’s always alot of smoke,followed by a case of the munchies.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzspy9n
Why not his we get rid of turk for someone more aggersive on we still keep our core for a while with bargs calderon , jack nd dero
Uhh, why would Philly do this?
Turkoglu is untradeable and will be for years. No one wants that contract. The best option for the Raps at this point is to beg him to play harder.