Other than dealing with the Chris Bosh saga, figuring out how to strengthen the team for the second half of the season should be a top priority for Bryan Colangelo as the trade deadline nears. This roster has shown they have the potential to either be a complete failure or a moderate success, and Colangelo must make moves to ensure that it’s the latter or better. As the schedule has softened, we have once again shown the ability to beat the lesser clubs of the association. However, as we found out the last two seasons, that distinction doesn’t come close to determining playoff success, something that should be an immediate goal.
Prioritizing what weaknesses to address will be the key challenge. Two years ago Colangelo incorrectly prioritized three-point shooting ahead of rebounding and ended up with Jason Kapono. Last year he finally got around to getting a rebounding big but failed to consider the impact of dribble penetration and left perimeter defense unaddressed, we all know what happened next. At last year’s trade deadline we attempted a pseudo-rebuild and ended up pulling a trade which saw us lose two draft picks, acquire a bad contract, give up a massive expiring deal holding great value this year, and then let a piece that actually fit walk away in the summer. So figuring out just how to tweak the current roster without costing flexibility and resources is going to be key. The key word here is tweak, because realistically speaking, that’s all Colangelo will do. He’s not going to trade Bargnani, Turkoglu or Bosh in an effort to make the team better this year.
From a basketball standpoint, there are a few things to consider. The problem of dribble penetration still exists, albeit it is less severe. The tweak we could make is the acquisition of a shot-blocker; we’re 17th in the league in blocks with 5.2 and Andrea Bargnani is our leading shot-blocker with 1.22bpg. Chris Bosh and Amir Johnson follow up with 1.09bpg and 0.79bpg, respectively. The issue is that none of these three players are great help defenders or weak-side shot-blockers. Amir Johnson is decent, but nothing that could anchor your defense or bail out guards who allow get beat. The idea here is that instead of collapsing the paint each and every time, we allow a good defender to contest the shot and make shorter interior rotations rather than longer perimeter ones. A defensive big man with length (Camby, Dalembert, Birdman) could be a tweak that would result in better overall defense. It’s hard to see Reggie Evans making a big impact at this point and his services could be offered in a trade but takers would be few and far between. We could also simply increase Johnson’s minutes and see if he fits the bill, but something tells me personal fouls will get in the way.
Everybody loves Gerald Wallace because he plays hard on defense, doesn’t settle for perimeter springers and has that look about him which you only see when you go to prison and drop the soap. Since there aren’t many Wallace-types available, adding a “defensive specialist” is perceived to be the next best option. However, strictly adding a defender is risky business as we’re seeing with Antoine Wright. A player of that nature produces next to nothing on offense and brings varying levels of play on the defensive side. Expecting someone like Wright to consistently contribute in proportion to his minutes is impossible, he’s just not that good. The Raptors would be better suited going for a good intelligent defender who has an offensive niche, someone who possesses enough offensive tools that he needs to be accounted for by the defense, not just left alone and doubled off of. Players like Raja Bell, James Posey, Ronnie Brewer and to a higher degree, Caron Butler come to mind. The premise of this move is acknowledging that Sonny Weems and DeMar DeRozan are decent players, but not ready to carry the defensive load at the wing by themselves. They need help and competition, both will serve them well in the long run. You can keep Marco Belinelli, he’s harmless, if he’s on he’s great, if he’s not, he’ll play 6 minutes. No sweat.
Focusing on offense, we have the option to commit to being a quick-fire team, much like what Orlando, Phoenix and New York are doing with different levels of success. They’re making 10.3, 9.5 and 9.1 threes a game, leading the league; the Raptors are lagging behind at 6.5 makes. The Raptors are shooting 36.6% which is not far off from Phoenix and Orlando at 42% and 36.9%, so the formula for better success might simply just be, as Triano put it, “to shoot more threes”. As a side note, if the Knicks just had better three-point shooters (33.3%), they actually could be decent. To remedy this “problem”, we could acquire Matt Carroll, who peaked Colangelo’s fancy over the summer. Going this route is unlikely, since our league-worst defense is simply too much for Colangelo to look past and should be at the top of his todo list.
With Jarrett Jack’s great play of late there’s been a lot of talk around trading Jose Calderon. This doesn’t make entire sense because it would mean Marcus Banks would become the primary backup, a position he is not capable of playing as found out by Phoenix and Miami. Now, some trades out there have the Raptors receiving a backup PG like Jordan Farmar in return for Jose, this also doesn’t jive because if Jose is one thing, it’s a tremendous backup PG. A trade involving Calderon would have to yield more than just another PG and a throw-in; as much as I like D.J Augustin, I’d even turn down a one-on-one swap (if salaries matched which they don’t) and simply opt for Jose coming off the bench (as bad as that would look on Colangelo) until he’s shown that he can’t do so. Also amiss is the realization that trading an injured player doesn’t net maximum returns, the Raptors would be much better off having Calderon return, start, have good showings and then make a deal rather than pull the trigger right now. Given the length of Calderon’s deal, a team will have to be absolutely sold on his abilities before trading for him and I just don’t see that happening (Lakers being an exception because of Gasol and the lack of dependence on the PG in the triangle). I say trading Jose Calderon on his own is very difficult.
If, for whatever reason, a Bosh trade must be executed, three things need to come back: 1) an expiring contract, 2) a quality starter, 3) first-round pick(s). #1 is needed in order for us to start re-tooling as soon as possible, #2 is compulsory, trading an All-Star should yield tangible returns and #3 is obvious. Draft picks are the crux of what makes a franchise successful, they’re the foundation of a franchise and rarely has one acquired its headline player via trade or free-agency (Shaq, Kareem). Serious trade scenarios should include Bosh returning to Dallas in a three-team deal. Nowitzki is 31 and will soon need to be replaced as the top gun in Dallas; Josh Howard and Jason Terry are great role players and Mark Cuban’s smart enough to know they’re not capable of being centerpieces, he might think Bosh is.
Win or lose, the trade deadline will be interesting.
167 Raps
Good review; I also believe that the glaring hole in this roster is a shot-blocking defensive presence, and think that Camby would look great as the first big off the bench. Unless of course, a wing like Butler realistically becomes available.
So, let’s assume that Bosh is not being traded, and that there aren’t any good enough packages out there for Jose.
Who does that leave to move out to “tweak” this roster?
Banks, Wright, Rasho, POB, Pops, and Evans, plus I suppose, future picks.
Without spending any time on the trade machine to work out salaries, I can’t think of any trades to be made where another team wants many (any?) of those players.
Maybe the loyal readers have some ideas?
Exposing my Amir bias again… but he is 11th (tied) in the entire league (all forwards) in shots blocked per 36 min (he’s well ahead of Bargs and Bosh). http://bit.ly/565lIO
Don’t worry , none of the young guns are going to be traded any time soon . They will be receiving enough playing minutes to prove they belong to the rotation for a team aiming at 5/6th place by playoff time.
I don’t think BC is interested in trading anyone in the regular rotation right now (excluding Bosh in this discussion).
It’s a moot point if he’s unable to play those 36 minutes. As I said, you have to look at it in the context of fouls as well. His Blk/PF rate is 0.234. That is horrendous for a designated shot blocker, which you’re proposing we try him out as (I think).
Lol, awesome stat Arse.
As of this post, Amir (per 36) is 13th at 1.6 blocks. At his given blk/pf rate of 0.234, the league would need to give everyone ~7 fouls per game (6.84 to be exact) and he’d still be out (on average) the second he hit the 36 minute mark.
Something tells me the leagues not changing any foul rules… at least not so Amir can finally reach his “potential” 1.6 blks per 36.
I tried this on the nba trade machine
To Washington:
Rasho Nestorovic, Antoine Wright and Jose Calderon
To Toronto:
Caron Butler, Javaris Crittendon
I can dream can’t I?
“We could also simply increase Johnson’s minutes and see if he fits the bill, but something tells me personal fouls will get in the way.”
True enough, but why not try it and find out?
Amir Johnson (one reason why I’m such a big fan) has the second highest *adjusted* +/- (i.e. adjusted for player strengths – teammates and opponents) – 2nd to one Christopher Wesson Bosh. I.e. Amir is the second most valuable player in helping this team WIN games. Of course I will acknowledge his game is limited, but what he does well – he does extremely well – and his strengths are team weaknesses and vice versa. Thus a perfect compliment.
The current Rapters team is very young with most of our core players being young: Calderon 28, Bosh 25, Bargnani 24, Amir 22, Weeems 23, Derozen 20, Jack 26, Pops 26. Turk is the only core player that is 30 years old.
I disagree with making any moves at this point. I think they should ride out the season and continue to gel and develop as a TEAM and see where they end up. They aren’t winning a championship this year anyways so why sacrifice the future for a few more wins this year. See what happened in Atlanta when they kept their young core together for all 3-4 years and they gradually got better and better each year.
I think this is a Toronto problem in general with both the Leafs and Raptors. Fans are never satisfied and bush for changes to win now and they never develop a team the proper way. HAVE PATIENCE I say and enjoy the YOUNG GUNS now and hope they stay together and grow into a great team over the next 2-3 years that will content for a long stretch.
“Win or lose, the trade deadline will be interesting.”
Somebody’s just trying to drum up traffic on his site, Bernard. There’s going to be no Raps trade, unless someone else suggests something to Colangelo that he can’t resist.
Quite frankly, what we need is Reggie and José healthy. That gives us the ‘defensive presence big’ everyone is complaining we need, and another first-unit worthy pg. (Cue the haterz…)
Personally, I don’t care whether Calderon or Jack starts or finishes or they play together. I will say, though, that the ball in Hedo’s hands with our BEST three-point shooter (yes, that’s Calderon!) getting the pass instead of a ‘passable only when in the corner pocket three-point shooter’ in Jack will be a great addition to our offence, and will drive up the number of threes taken, now that we’re starting the O through Hedo more often.
So, my solution to our needs? Healthy guys.
Calderon is not our best 3-point shooter from the corner – Jack, Antoine Wright and Hedo are all better (http://www.nba.com/hotspots/).
You need a good corner shooter and Andrea on the floor when the ball is in Hedo’s hands so that there’s space for Hedo to operate. We don’t have a good corner shooter – we have Jack. I’d rather see Jack & Weems round out the finishing 5 than Jose and Wright. We all know that Jack and Jose doesn’t work.
Let’s never ever put the word “finish” and Wright in the same sentence ever again unless it includes the word “can’t”. Why not just pair up Calderon with my nephew in high school – no wait he shoots the ball better!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=tor&seasonYear=2010&season=2&sort=3p%&order=true&avg=none&split=0
Jose is our best 3-point shooter, period. Jack in the corner is great, but not from anywhere else. Wright is less terrible than usual — not the same thing.
The difference b/w stats and the real game is that it matters in the real game where the guy stands while shooting the ball. Andrea never shoots 3s from the corner. Jose is not good at shooting 3s from the corner. One reason that Hedo and Jack fit is that they can both shoot from the corner. They need to be able to space the floor if they want an efficient offence and to make shots at the end of games.
Watch the games – you’ll enjoy them.
hahahahha… y’all trying to call BS with BS.
Your point — if you have one — is that JJ works better with Hedo b/c he can’t shoot threes from anywhere else but the corner. So, having a better three point shooter (JC) who’s comfortable shooting threes from anywhere, which will make Hedo have to make a pass to somewhere other than the corner is… bad… is your point? Or your point is that you’ve decided to hate Jose, so you’ll hate his offence as well as his D? Or you don’t have a point, so you’ll just throw out an ad hominem insult to cover up the fact you’re an idiot?
Triano has realized that Hedo needs the ball in his hands. He has JJ able to shoot threes from the corner, at a 33%+ rate. Or he has Calderon able to shoot threes from everywhere, at an almost 40% rate. You’re right — let’s strap Hedo to JJ rather than seeing if we can figure out some sets where Calderon gets an open three from a Hedo pass. ‘Cause it would suck if we made more threes.
Jose is shooting 27% from the left corner, 33% from the right corner this year. Jack is shooting 40% and 47%.
My point was that it’s bad to have a closing lineup that can’t shoot the corner 3 b/c that spot is left open when someone helps on Hedo’s drive.
I like Jose. I’d like for him to learn to hit the corner 3 consistently b/c this version of the raps requires that of him to be effective.
How much hominem should we add before you grow up?
Enjoy the games (and watch them, not the box scores alone).
-Brain
keep in mind the hotspot charts for Jose would be skewed since his offense is heavily controlled by the types of plays they have him as a shooting option. For example, Triano isnt going to call a baseline pick and roll with Jose and Bargs/Bosh so he’s not going to get alot of clear looks from the baseline hence why the sample size below the free throw line is dramatically smaller than above (layups excluded). Jose hasnt been placed in the corner on Turk PnR’s because, well…. If Jose is on the floor with Turk he’s doing the PnR’s and not Turk since he has been the primary ballhandler in those situations(should change some after he comes back from injury).
good points, though reggie is, to put it kindly, a shitty-ass defender. excellent rebounder, shitty defender, and abysmally shitty offensive player. he’s bizarro-bargs (’cept both are shyte defenders. did i mention he’s a shitty defender?).
so, yeah, can’t wait for his return either…
Ditto on that…except that it seems that pleasing Bosh might drive the action. Personally just a tweak (emphasizing defense) should be considered and let the chips fall where they may. This team is just 30 games into it’s maturity and with a rookie coach as well.
ummmm ATL still made tweaks to get better, aka Mike Bibby?
but i think you’re still agreeing with Arse, because he never said trade any one of our core players.
however, at this rate, i wouldn’t mind trading turk, unless he steps up his play to the level it was at in the past 2 seasons.
they’ve had bibby for a few seasons now, but have taken a ‘leap’ of sorts this year. i think it has more to do with josh smith playing to his strengths more than anything.
Crawford is nice off the bench too
Amen.
That is amen to the original post.
Keep a good young team together and let’s see what we can make of them.
Amen Bernard….amen.
How did you forget Beli , the eveready rabbit.
A defensive presence down low would be, in my opinion, the most realistic best case scenario to improving this team. How that would actually happen (without Bosh or Bargs being moved), I’m not sure… although there are alway teams that decide its time for a fire sale come closer to trade deadline time.
But I don’t really see any moves actually being made by BC.
I think the most reasonable scenario happening to ‘tweak’ this team is Jose come off the bench… and I think this could be a very positive result for this team (not because Jose is a ‘worse player’ thank Jack. But rather Jack has worked well in the starting line-up, and, more importantly, Jose could offer some much needed consitency and control to the 2nd unit).
what happned to Reggie Evans ?
broke his foot in bargs’ ass during pre-season?
What 23530 youtube viewers have seen so far :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxcdZw272Hc
PUNJABI!!!!
Some tweaks to the roster would be welcome.
The Raps still have a big hole a backup SF that they are trying to hide with guys better suited to SG.
A shot blocker would be nice but it does seem that might take a bigger deal.
How long does Colangelo let Bosh string him along? Waiting until the summer puts Colangelo in a very weak bargaining position. If Bosh wants a S&T, the Raps could end up with little more than a trade exception when push comes to shove!
Its looking more and more like there will be desperate teams out there willing to do deals. (But MLSE would have to consider lux tax to get max value)
In all fairness to Bosh I don’t think he is “strining him (BC) along”. Its in Bosh’s best interest to wait a see what this offseason (and the rest of this season) may bring.
That said it would be better for the team, organization and fans if Bosh made a decision… but thats not necessairly Bosh’s responsibility or fault. More than anything we should blame the media (and Stephen Smith) for putting so much attention on this.
At the very least he didn’t pull a Carter… got to give him some respect for that.
And regardless of what comes this trade deadline or offseason… I think BC has handled the situation the best way possible. He’s really in a “little chance to win” situation.
It is in Bosh’s best interests to wait. It puts Bosh in a strong position and Colangelo in a weak position. But if Bosh does intend to resign, this move is putting unnecessary stress on the team and making Colangelo look weak to MLSE.
If Colangelo has “offered” a max 6 year deal/extension (who knows for sure?) and Bosh doesn’t want to consider it – then Bosh is weighing something other than money or he believes rightly (or wrongly) that he can force a S&T for little to no value back to the Raps. And then Bosh is stringing Colangelo along.
If Colangelo hasn’t made the max offer – that’s on him (and he’s nuts).
Or can’t make the offer (MLSE won’t do it) – why wasn’t a trade made in the off season? Both seem unlikely.
I agree, Colangelo is not in a good spot here no matter what he does. And anything he does has risks. But doing nothing is very risky too!
In the end, the only control he has is to put a trade in motion and offer Bosh the extension or the door. Tough spot, BC isn’t likely to get full value in a trade and Bosh may turn an extension down. But at least Colangelo would be in control of his own fate.
Carter was an ass! He could have done the trade request quietly and played like an all-star while a deal was being made. I don’t think Bosh’s character would let him just stop playing.
Speaking of Carter, I’da suspended him, stopped playing him, and let him spend 4 years on the shelf.
“the only control he has is to put a trade in motion and offer Bosh the extension or the door.”
YES. You do this to eliminate the possibility that your best player simply leaves. Fuck.
Sucks doesn’t it.
Of course, BC can always just wait to see what happens and hope he doesn’t get shafted. That’s a plan. (a plan that can get one shafted.)
The plan may already be in motion: to get the team playing well and with such a chemistry that Bosh is excited by year’s end and wants to continue what he started. If I was BC I’d be talking to CB4 about players who helped MAKE a championship team even though things weren’t easy early on, like Michael Jordan, as one example.
This bit of information needs to be evaluated with the CBA in mind. Bosh isnt “stringing” anyone along – although he has chosen to put the franchise in a tight spot, he did it because of the likely CBA changes coming in 2011 and BC cant extend him for more than 3 years, so the 6 years re-sign is a much much much more lucrative option for Bosh. We hear this everyday in the media – I figured we’d all be experts on the subject by now lol
Raptors needs a low post scorer. The way they play now is outside-in ball, they need a low post threat to open up the shooters that we have. I think guys like Milsap, Maxiell, and maybe even Brand can be had.
They also need a scoring SG who can play D, not gonna happen. I thought about including low-post presence in this list but realistically speaking, Bosh and Bargnani have got a stranglehold on the minutes at the big positions. With Johnson as your hustle guy, there aren’t enough minutes to go around.
I say we SHOULDN’T MAKE ANY BIG SPLASHES as the trade deadline approaches. Just bits of tweaking will be fine. I am saying that because realistically speaking, what are our goals for this season? We are not trying to win a championship or go to the conference finals. We simply want to buy time and try to make bosh stay. I really have a good feeling about this team (other than the Hedo signing) going forward, and the primary reason being is DD. I really believe in this guy, and I think he has been a long time missing piece on this roster. So why try to make a big splash? WE all know that teams that are looking to acquire great players during the trade deadline, are selling their future for the presence, and I really think we should not do that, because at the end of the day we will still be a better than average team…
So I say lets just play out this season, and if and only if Bosh stays, make a BIGGGGGGGGG splash during the off-season.
No whining when the Raps get bounced out in 4 straight this April.
Two months after you introduce 9 new guys, if you’re trying to make big changes, you might as well give up. Now is the time to consolidate.
Raptors are 5th in league offensive efficiency behind Phoenix, Atlanta, Denver and San Antonio. Neither Phoenix, Atlanta or Denver have a low post scorer more accomplished than Bosh.
NBA has changed, J.J. Andande wrote an decent piece about this today:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Decade-100101
Actually, Bosh is more of a mid-post scorer. Plus, Phoenix has Amar’e who, on the offensive end, has a very similar game to Bosh. If anything, Amar’e is more explosive.
Regardless, I agree with you in that there are not a lot of bonafide low-post scorers. And I certainly wouldn’t put the likes of “Milsap, Maxiell, and maybe even Brand” into that category as Mike is suggesting.
Unfortunately, with the changes the league has made (hand checking, three point line, offensive three, etc.), it’s a guard dominated game.
Right on about Stoudemire and Bosh. Of their shot attempts, both(!) players attempt 51% jump shots and 49% of their attemps are inside (close / dunk / tip). Stoudemire dunks 17% of his attempts and Bosh 9%, which validates Stoudemires explosiveness.
Personally, I really like the rule changes. Basketball is awesome without teams like 1990’s Knicks and Heat.
Is it his explosiveness or Nashes abilities?
I’m sure Amar’e gets a couple more dunks because of Nash.
But if you think Bosh could EVER do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNeDoJFWsjU
or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqhOcV5h0sE
you are dreaming. :P
Pryzbilla jumps high enough in both clips to block a reasonable dunk attempt… unfortunately Amar’e is nothing if not unreasonable on these dunks. Plus, Joel has a career average of 1.6 blocks per game in just 21 minutes.
It’s a little old,but you did say ever…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC71hq1AvPY
Bosh is way better than Amar’e. Come on, Amar’e is as good as Nash wants him to be. He won’t be remotely close to the player he is now without Nash in a few years. I’ll be on it. He has some flashy dunks, but not the skillset of Bosh.
Raptor Cowboy thanks for the dunks. Jjtos dreaming.
“Personally, I really like the rule changes. Basketball is awesome without teams like 1990’s Knicks and Heat.”
totally agree – this was a dreadful period for the NBA – the neutral zone trap or dead ball era for basketball – not entertaining at all.
funny Paul Jones was lamanting on Hoops how you can’t play defense like those good old days – there was little good about them.
There were some entertaining haircuts. And the fight where Jeff Van Gundy grabs onto Alonzo Mournings leg…
@02:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGD_ym_hb1M
Raptors can use Dalembert, he’s Canadian too!
Dalembert isn’t as good as he’s thought to be, and definitely hasn’t lived up to his overpaid contract. Plus he acts like a primadonna, at least with the Canadian Men’s national team. I hate him. Just my 2 cents.
true, but the unintentional comedy that would be borne from listening to rautins’ commentary during raps games would be legendary. it would almost make it worthwhile listening to the douche.
You know what, you are absolutely correct. I would love to have Dalembert here just to see the tension between Leo and him – can you imagine how awkward and hilarious those halftime and post-game interviews would be! lol
We both know that Leo would just tuck his balls between his legs and be all smiles and handshakes if that happened lol
Dalembert spent a lot of his own money and jumped through major hoops to get his Canadian passport/citizenship in time to play for Canada. He did not have to do this!
Something happened between him and Leo and its unfair to lay this all on SD. Rautins has the ability to be a very negative person (just watch Raptors TV).
Sure Dalembert could have been the veteran & statesman and made things work with the coach BUT it is supposed to be up to the coach to work with a dozen different personalities and make it come together.
The National team lost a very good player.
Methinks Triano will be running that show real quick here – definately in the next couple years.
“(Gerald Wallace) has that look about him which you only see when you go to prison and drop the soap.”
Hilarious line. It’s funny because it’s so true.
An interesting stat about Gerald is that in his 10th year in the NBA he became a great rebounder . His previous season best was 7.8 rebounds in 2008-2009 . This season he is at 12.1 rebounds . What could be the reason for such a jump ??? . If it is as simple as more dedication to grab rebounds then a lot of bigs (he is 6′7″) could be grabbing 14-15 rebounds but no one does.
Wilt Chamberlain averaged 22.9 career rebounds but he must have been 10 feet tall.
Correction: G.Wallace is in his 9th season not 10th.
Let’s not forget that he (I believe) has been able to move to his more natural SF position. He also jumps through the roof. I think the combination of his athleticism and his no longer having to battle with PFs for rebounds helps a great deal.
It also helps that the Bobcats are a horrible offensive team: there are a LOT of OReb available…
don’t do that…you can’t compare #’s from previous eras as though they could be achieved today. george mikan avg’d around 25 & 14 during his prime (pre-wilt & pre-russell), and he wouldn’t make the roster of a current nba team.
So what is your idea on how many rebounds Wilt will get if he plays to-day (disregarding the fact that a lot more ladies will be available now to tire him out) . I believe some experts may have said that him and Russel will still dominate to-day .
My guess is he would probably get the same # as Shaq got in his prime – the game is completely different than when Russell & Wilt played – the average player today is way better compared to the average player when they played – most of the guys they dominated and put up these gaudy stats against couldn’t even make an NBA roster of today – just watch a tape of a game from the 1960’s.
Imagine how good NBA teams would be today if the league was the same size as when Wilt and Bill played! Half the players wouldn’t even be in the league!
Wilt and BR only ever played against the best of their era. Today’s centers are often going up against kids with HUGE deficiencies in their skill sets.
The worst players in the NBA could be superstars just a few decades ago – dont underestimate the exponential increase in talent/training/athletics that occurs every generation.
It could also be a function of not playing alongside traditional rebounding bigs very much. Wallace spends a lot of time as a PF.
Great Review. This Roster has some holes which you pointed out but I dont know what we have to give back ???!!!!
To me we have nothing to offer .
“…and then let a piece that actually fit walk away in the summer.”
??? Graham? couldn’t be.
Parker? was run out of town by this blog as too old and defensively challenged, so don’t know who else fits this description.
Methinks if BC is going to make a move it will be to the end of the bench (POB or Pops, not Rasho)for more depth but not someone likely to see much time on the floor. The Raptors will be fine when Evans returns and it will be interesting to see how Jay rotates him and Amir along with Bosh and Bargs; it’s all good.
Marion.
That was a sign & trade with Wright and Devean George coming to the Raptors.
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/four-team-trade-shawn-marion-to-dallas/
People keep forgetting this team’s long-term salary situation. This team will HAVE to trade Jose, unless they dump Amir, Rasho, and wright and replace them with minimum players. We’d be essentially worse than this year in that situation. The deal the raps should be looking for is trading Jose for an expiring and then resigning Amir.
people keep saying Jose is way OVERPAID… Guys look at other teams salary situations and ours is not that bad comparing. Lets say jose will be earning 9 million on average for the next 3 years. Jose’s value to any team is at least the mid-level exception which is around 6 million. Worst cases considered, we are overpaying Jose for 3 mil/year.. this is not much considering other team’s bad contracts, such as Reshard Lewis, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, TRACY MCGRAdy, AK47 etc… where teams are overpaying these guys more than 10 mil/year. So please stop talking about his bad contract. The only bad contract that is my real concern is Hedo which we stuck with for another 4 years. Trust Hedo will be the Rasho of our team in 3 years which is really concerning!
He’s only got to give three good years after this one. Then he’s an expiring contract and thus trade material.
What about a guy like Ime Udoka in that wing defender category? he can defend 1-3’s, he’s a good 3 point shooter, and he’s a super team first guy who also brings a ton of toughness. on top of that he’s super cheap. anyone like that?
Udoka’s one of those guys that we fans always are looking at like “How is it that NBA types arent chasing this guy?” But I will always assume that those guys have deficiencies that those same NBA types are well aware of… and they’re right 95% of the time when it comes down to it.
tweaks will be nice but this will be a tough month regardless. The Raptors just have to jump on opportunities like when they will face the Celtics who won’t have 2 of their best players in the lineup.
Lets start the year on a good note.
Realistically this team is fighting for a playoff chance but there is no way in hell they will be able to move on to the next round with the four juggernaut teams securing home court advantage.
How? I think Atlanta is pretty beatable, so is Orlando. If we just get it together, fighting for a fourth seed or 5th is not that out of reach. We are only 5.5 games of 4th seed today, considering the fact that we made the gap from 9 GB to 5.5 GB in a week and a half, beating Atlanta for the 4th seed is not that impossible. We have a pretty good team, but so far the coaching has just been awful…
I caught the Hawks-Knicks game tonight and Nate Robinson torched them (and Bibby and whomever) for the win in OT. The Knicks played great interior defense and had them taking Js which stopped falling in crunch time. A 14 pt. lead with about 10 mins. to go and they lost in OT in their bldg. However this was a career game for Robinson. But to your point…if the Knicks can defend them then surely…..
Hawks looked tired all night – like a bunch of guys who’d been out partying. They didn’t run. Played half-court ball. Coach should be ripping them a new one!
Raps don’t have anyone who’s going to drop 40 points and bail out the team.
the hawks are a tough matchup for us at every position…
Yeah the Hawks have definately come down to earth lately – I would disagree that Orlando is “Beatable” since they have a new and improved hybrid Raptor-killer roster whose players basically represent our last 3 playoff failures – Please let Miami or Atlanta beat us instead – just for some variety lol. But seriously, I would rather meet cleveland or maybe even the celtics in the first round.
On the Calderon/Jack Starting:
People can be easy persuaded by our current win streak to think Jack should be taking the starting point guard position. Weak competition aside, Jack has proven worthy of a starting role, but Calderon still deserves the opportunity to prove whether or not he can outplay Jack in Jay Triano’s tweaked System.
I don’t believe it is Jacks defence that has made the difference in these wins.
I compared the numbers that Jarrett Jack has averaged in his past 5 games, wins against sub .500 teams, VS. The opposition’s starting point guard. Afterwards, I looked at Jose Calderon’s numbers from his last 5 winning games against sub .500 teams and then compared the two. Here are my results:
Jarrett has averaged 6.8 Assists and 11.8 Points. The opposing point guards (Raymond Felton, Rodney Stuckey, Chris Paul, and Devin Harris) averaged 4.6 assists and 12.6 points.
Jose averaged 6.8 Assists and 16 Points. His opposition (Derrick Rose, Baron Davis, TJ Ford and Gilbert Arenas) averaged 4.8 assists and 18 points.
The net difference of Points and Assists is that Jack and Jose both averaged 2 assists more than their check. Jack made 0.8 less points, and Jose made 2 less than the opposing point guard. That is a 1 point difference in points scored/given up and no difference in assists between Jack and Calderon. Jack has also averaged 1.6 minutes more than Calderon.
What is apparent is that Jack is more comfortable playing off the ball, due to his experience at the 2-guard. This makes JJ and Hedo a stronger tandem then Jose and Hedo were earlier this season. Ever since Jose has been out Jay has given Hedo the opportunity to handle the ball much more. This has made Hedo more productive and is what has made the difference in our wins. There is no reason that Jose can’t develop a great off-ball game, being the better shooter and capable attacker with his legs back. Some will say Jose has to have the ball to be effective. Did they forget that Jose had a horrid jump shot, 3 pointer, and free throw percentage? He improved, just like he can improve his play style when Hedo is on the court. What about his defence? In the 5-game sample above Jose gave up just 2 points more than what he was able to produce.
The results show that the point guard play maybe more similar then what some people might try to make it seem. Personally I would like the most capable player playing the point in order to maximize our wins, regardless of who it is. It is also not absurd to use one over the other depending on the match up. If one is playing bad, run the other one a little longer. If there are any point guard issues when Jose returns it really comes down to Jay; He needs to be able to use them to their potential. We should see if Jose can integrate into an offence with Hedo handling the ball and a pressure defence that is more aggressive before we make a decision on who should start between Jack and Calderon.
Excellent analysis. If only everyone was as thoughtful as you.
To expand your weaker competition point:
Calderon, first 22 games
11 (50%) games against top competition: 1-10 record
11 (50%) games against non-top competition: 8-3 record
Jack, last 11 games
2 (18%) games against top competition: 0-2 record
9 (82%) games against non-top competition: 7-2 record
For the purpose of the above, “top competition” includes all teams with a better record than .560.
Interesting comparison of Jack and Calderon.
We should also remember that we want the Raptors to have a strong bench in order to win consistently over the season. Having a strong bench should lead to controversy over who starts – as it is right now.
This is a good thing. It shows team depth … which I see no reason to trade away.
What is important is personalities and egos. Are all team members willing to play either off the bench or starting? I think Jose has got the mental strength and team orientation to do either. I hope Jack does as well.
Yes, a shotblocker behind Bosh and Bargnani would be nice… but it’s not the team’s biggest hole. It’s the guards, specifically the 2 spot.
Demar, Weems, and Belli are all inconsistent. The first 2 have no range on their j’s and the other has been in a slump for most of the season. They may have potential, but none of them are good defenders yet.
I disagree. Bellinelli has been surprisingly strong on D all year, and his adjusted plus minus numbers have been good enough to merit a Wayne Winston column on him.
One of the more annoying comments I’ve read is that Belinelli is a poor defender. He gambles a little too much, but he’s a very good defender at the 2. He is physical and stays in front of his man well.
Wayne Winston also posted ’significant interaction’ ratings for pairs of players on each team. Per 48 minutes Raptors play +5.4 points better with Bargnani & Bellinelli on the floor together. But Bellinelli and Johnson together play -5.3 points worse than expected over 48 mins. Bellinelli is polarizing!
Reason #728 why +/- stats are generally useless.
Another is that Bargnani is taken out on defense in close games. In close games, Bargnani’s +/- rating increases because he is only on the floor on offense, when his team can score. When the team is on defense, and can get scored on, he’s on the bench.
Tim , I can guarantee you that if Andrea +/- was at -92 like Calderon instead of +22 , and Bosh +/- was on the plus side , the fans on this site will go berserk with trade ideas.
That o/d substitution has only been a recent event – not all season. And it usually doesn’t stop anything either!
’significant interaction’ data shows which players have chemistry, and which players do not.
How is this information useless?
Also, why are you sarcastic when discussing basketball? Or maybe you actually have 727 reasons why adjusted plus minus stats are generally useless?
sonny is a goof defender when he puts his mind to it thats why he is on the floor so much.
I think this team need some small moves to cover the holes in the roster. But Bosh Bargnani, Jack, Calderon, DeRozan, Evans and Turkoglu should stay together. Obviously, everyone want to see Banks and his horrible contract in other team, and no one would care if Wright or POB are move.
But right now our most tradable players are Weems and Amir. I would like to see the rotation when evans returns and what Amir could do with Reggie healthy, I think both of them will have the same role and in that department, Evans is better and more experience. I can’t be sure if Amir will re sign next year, not with young teams with cap room having so much troubles in the inside game (Oklahoma City or the Kings for example).
Weems is someone you should be looking to move, his stock is higher than never and it’ll probably increse if the team continues winning games, but for the future, he’s a DD clone, four years older and with a lower basketball IQ. A lot of times he took bad shots early in the possesion when bosh or bargnani were open. And He takes too much jumpers for what we might need. The three SG are good right now but the can’t live together for two or three seasons and judging by how much BC wanted Belienlli, I don’t see him going anywhere this or next season.
Maybe using Banks contract and Amir or Weems in a trade for some back up SF is the option (If Evans fits good on the team when he’s healthy)
Or dealing Weems for a young Third PG who you could develope under Calderon and Jack (like Dallas is doing with Beaubois or what SAS tried to do with Mahimni as their C or what Denver did with Lawson)
Weems is a good rebounder and passer. Keep him and let him work through his “rookie” season. He will improve and his stock will rise.
I would love to see Sonny get a ligit shot, provided he continues to hustle and bring the intangebles.
By what measurement is Evans better than Johnson?
Evans is mainly better than Johnson in 2 regards:
1) rebounding (even though Johnson is a pretty good rebounder, Evans happens to be better), and
2) love.
Raptors nation loves him and has literally deemed him the savior, despite him being nothing more than a role player with big deficiencies. With the amount of love given him (when is Reggie back? when is Reggie back?), you’d think he was Ben Wallace from yesteryears.
This feels like Antoine Wright all over.
love doesn’t count. Amir is a better offensive player not by much but better, also Amir is a better perimeter defender due to better lateral movement.
I don’t think Weems has any trade value. Maybe he could fetch a second round pick.
Amir Johnson has some trade value as an expiring contract + a stop gap bench player. So small trade value, especially relative to his talent. The past two trades he was involved in this summer where good indicators of what the Raptors could get for him.
I think Toronto is better off keeping both players rather than trading them. More value as players than as trade assets which defeats the purpose of a trade.
Note: Amir Johnson is a useful asset in a larger trade proposal though. His expiring contract + is a decent role player makes him a good throw-in to even out many trade ideas.
————————————————————-
I’d consider the Raptor most trade-able players to be Andrea Bargnani and to a lesser degree Jose Calderon. DeMar DeRozan would also have good trade value but it’s very soon to be giving up on him … there would need to be a comparable prospect coming back in that type of trade or a good-to-very good starter who fills a major need for the Raptors.
“Raptors would be better suited going for a good intelligent defender who has an offensive niche, someone who possesses enough offensive tools that he needs to be accounted for by the defense, not just left alone and doubled off of.”
That would be Anthony Parker, I believe.
There won’t and shouldn’t be any trades this year. This is not a team to win this year, or even next. It’s a team that is built to grow and learn together in hopes they do OK this year, learn a bit, do better next year, learn a bit more and do great the year after. In 3 years it could be the Raps, Magic and Hawks as the beasts of the east, hopefully.
Interesting article, but a little rewriting of history, though. Saying what Colangelo prioritized is a little misleading. Colangelo signed really the only player he had a shot at, Jason Kapono. Now, I didn’t like it then, and I don’t like it now, but it doesn’t mean he prioritized three point shooting. It means the guy he was able to sign was Kapono. The question you have to ask is what choices did he have. I don’t know, but I’m guessing not a lot. Up to then, Kapono was the Raptors biggest ever free agent signing. That says a lot.
Next you say that Colangelo “failed to consider the impact of dribble penetration and left perimeter defense unaddressed”. I have to question how close you are to Colangelo’s thought process, because it could be that Colangelo did what he could, and was unable to address the other needs he knew the team had. Again, you’re making HUGE assumptions, here.
Lastly, you claim that Colangelo “attempted a pseudo-rebuild and ended up pulling a trade which saw us lose two draft picks, acquire a bad contract, give up a massive expiring deal holding great value this year, and then let a piece that actually fit walk away in the summer.”
Wow, you should be a spin doctor. Now, I am on record disagreeing with the trade, but let’s look at a few facts, here. Colangelo traded a massive contract expiring next summer for a massive contract expiring this past summer. And, at this point, there doesn’t seem to be a huge market for expiring contracts like O’Neal because a) his contract is so big, and b) most teams that want to be under the cap actually are under the cap this coming summer.
And Colangelo let Marion walk away like Tiger Woods wife let him drive away that fateful night. Colangelo TRIED to re-sign Marion, but Marion refused. Saying he let Marion walk is a lie that is predicated on advancing your argument.
Oh, and one of those two draft picks the Raptors gave away in the trade was a second round pick, which are thrown around so much in the NBA that I actually gave my wife one for Christmas this year (unfortunately she exchanged it for basket of bath salts).
As for what the Raptors need, the biggest need is to trade Bargnani, but that’s not happening, unfortunately. Trading Calderon for a backup and expiring contract is knee jerk and short sighted. The Raptors are a better team with him in the lineup, and the whole thing about him fitting in with the Lakers because they are point guard reliant makes no sense. This is a player who is consistently leading the league in assist/turnover ratio, and, at least close, to the top ten in assists per game. It seems to me that he’s actually pretty good at running a team.
He’s done alright at the Olympics, too, and world championships. I hear Spain won some stuff with him at point.
Amazing, isn’t it?
Oh, and I meant that the Lakers AREN”T point guard reliant. Otherwise my comment makes no sense.
I remember the Kapono signing. Back then (and every year really since the end of the Antonio Davis era), it was clear we needed rebounding. What most people don’t get is you can’t just add a good rebounding 4 or 5 on the bench and expect to be a better rebounding team. Your bigs are your main rebounders, so if one of them is deficient, you need your starting guards and wings to compensate. I’m sure B.C. tried to address the issue. The most we could have signed someone for was the MLE, so forget about Gerald Wallace and the other top free agents of 2007. I’m not sure who else would have wanted to come to Toronto for MLE money.
http://www.sportscity.com/Top-25-NBA-Free-Agents-2007
I like Bargnani because I’m not afraid to deviate from the norm (big man must rebound, etc), but I’ve always thought that for it to work, we’d need a superior rebounding 3. I don’t think Marion was the best fit, but the rebounding was there. If he was more of a scorer… well, then I guess we’d have the perfect 3.
One interesting tidbit was when many people were in an uproar that we had too much free-point shooting as it was. Actually, looking at the stats from 2006-2007, Toronto was 11th in 3pt shots taken, 80% of the teams that took more 3pt shots made the playoffs and were .500 or better, while only 42% of the bottom 19 teams made the playoffs. If anything, more 3 pt shooting wouldn’t hurt (look at Orlando and Phoenix this season), IF they weren’t the only type of shots we took. Toronto’s problem was the tendency to settle for the quick, easy shot, while the good teams kill you with the 3 when you’re tangled up elsewhere.
The only way I’d trade Calderon for a backup and an expiring contract is if we’ve decided to rebuild. That means trading Bosh, somehow trading away Turkoglu’s bad contract, etc. If Bosh stays and we trade Calderon (for that type of deal), what do we get? “Cap space”? No, we’re still over the cap, just not by as much. Thank you for saving MLSE money, however, and I’m sure Calderon is better than anyone we can get for the MLE. If both Bosh and Calderon are traded, yay, we have cap room but not enough for any of the big free agents. If you consider the number of teams that have huge cap room next summer, compared to the number of LBJ, Wade and Bosh (3, by the way), the likes of Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire will probably get max contracts, and several others will be overpaid by teams with money left unused, economy notwithstanding. We don’t want to be there when it happens.
There is not one single point in your comment I disagree with.
And looking at those free agents, it’s clear that the Raptors were not going to get that vaunted rebounder that they apparently missed out on. Although, on second thought, I’m sure Gerald Wallace would have gladly given up $3 million a year had Colangelo asked him to.
Haha, I almost missed the sarcasm there. :-p
Honestly, the best I could come up with on that list was Posey.
Tim, my friend (if I may be so presumptuous), you are the voice of reason around here and I always enjoy your posts.
Thanks. I am a little disappointed my `giving my wife a second round pick for Christmas’ comment didn’t get a little more play. I was proud of that one.
That line of yours made me giggle like a little girl, but I didn’t want to comment on it for fear of revealing my inner nature.
I agree with Arsenalist’s views + recollections of Colangelo’s previous moves
(1) Colangelo prioritized three point shooting following the playoff series loss to NJ. He wanted to open up the floor for Chris Bosh after his poor showing in the series. Kapono was the best three point shooter in the league so he was the top target. Colangelo signed him hours into the free agency period.
(2) Colangelo incorrectly viewed interior defense as the Raptors biggest defensive efficiency instead of perimeter defense after their loss to Dwight Howard’s Orlando Magic. That led to the Jermaine O’Neal trade. His poor evaluation of the Raptors defensive problems then led to his inactivity during the rest of the summer which meant the Raptors perimeter defensive problems went completely unaddressed.
(3) Colangelo showed a lack of patience + lack of trust in his initial backup plan and forced a half-thought out trade involving Marion-Jermaine.
They all seem to be more “answers/compliance to public demand”, rather then something else. And there’s more to that list.
It really is hard to believe someone who’s been around basketball for that long, with access to basketball minds and resources we can only dream of, keeps making moves that “don’t make sense”. It’s what fuels, for some, the “hungry ticket salesman” image of BC.
on the contrary most of BC’s choice have made complete sense. Some have been bigger risks than others. Some have been more out of necessity than others. But I can’t think of a single move BC has made that didn’t make sense at the time.
Ofcourse the haters such as yourself will always criticize BC’s moves (regardless of the success). You can only see failures.
What makes sense to one person, may not to another. Just ask all my ex-girlfriends ;-) The only BC move that I never thought made any sense at all was the Kapono deal.
LOLOLOL. But sweety, are you sure that’s supposed to go there?
=P
Dave, I fully agree with #3, partially agree with #2, and it’s obvious I fully disagree with #1. Signing Kapono first thing as soon as free agency began was a smart way of assuaging Raptors fans that 1) we have little money to spend, and 2) none of the top free agents are willing to sign with us.
Honestly, I’m still waiting for someone — anyone — to argue which free agent we should have gone after and with how much money.
reading through this forum is amazing. there’s so much analysis going on here. i bet you the raptors would be VERY surprised if they knew how much their fans analyzed all this stuff.
good stuff. keep it up raptors nation!
That’s because Arsenalist, Altraps and Raps Fan are Bryan Colangelo, Mauricio Gherdini & Jay Triano. In respective order of course. ;)
Try this for a fun exercise. Go back and read every post and column with their revealed identities. Whoa!
“To expand your weaker competition point:
Calderon, first 22 games
11 (50%) games against top competition: 1-10 record
11 (50%) games against non-top competition: 8-3 record
Jack, last 11 games
2 (18%) games against top competition: 0-2 record
9 (82%) games against non-top competition: 7-2 record
For the purpose of the above, “top competition” includes all teams with a better record than .560.”
Hmm… don’t your numbers actually prove the exact opposite of what you what you intend?
Jack has had to play with essentially no backup. If he’s not playing well, the only option is Banks. Calderon had the luxury of having a starting calibre PG coming in behind him.
Given your numbers, Jack’s been able to accomplish by himself (essentially), what he AND Calderon were producing previously. So with or without Calderon, Jack is achieving the same results. Might this suggest Calderon’s redundancy on this team?
Or it might suggest that basketball is a team game and the Raptors have talent beyond the point guard position.
The whole point was the MARGINAL difference is Calderon. We’re not comparing two different teams here. It’s the same team with and without one player…
That “the Raptors have talent beyond the point guard position” is fine to say, but they had access to that same talent when Calderon was around and the end results (based on the numbers by J) aren’t all that different.
But until fairly December, Jack wasn’t playing very well, and Turkoglu was not playing up to the level he is now. Both players needed time to fit in and acclimatize themselves. If you remember, back in November, people were talking about Jack being a useless signing- keep in mind, I was not one of them.
Interestingly, I was also not one of them. It seems we have a very bi-polar fan base. First, it’s “omg, Jack is a horrible signing, even $4 mil is overpaid for him,” and now it’s “omg, Calderon is a horrible starter, trade him trade him trade him now!” What I want to know is, are these the same fans? Or did Jack’s recent play shut up the first group?
Ever since Jose has been out Jay has given Hedo the opportunity to handle the ball much more. This has made Hedo more productive and is what has made the difference in our wins. It’s been Hedo and Jack not, Jack and no one..
Even though they had access to the same players doesn’t mean Jay was using them effectively. Coaches can make a difference, believe it or not.
I said that it meant Jose was redundant. And I stand by that. Even if Jose were to come back, what would he do?
Jose is one of my favourite players, believe me. But he is a pure half-court point who needs to dominate the ball. One of the great things about this team post-Jose is that there is a lot more ball movement and higher-risk passes are being made and it’s paying off.
Not to mention the match up issues that arise with Turk handling the ball.
The problem with this team is it now has TOO many creators. Bosh in the mid-post, Turk, Calderon and Jack. The game is only 48 minutes long! And of that list, the least versatile and unfortunately the least effective with the ball is Jose.
I’ll say it again, I love Jose, but I think he fits better on a team that’s just gonna run old school half court sets. He can’t run with a point-forward like Turk.
At best, he becomes an $8 million (9?) spot up shooter.
I probably agree that his $8-10 mil salary over the next couple years makes him overpaid, but honestly, we need to get over salary amounts! It’s a bad habit. We did it with Nesterovic, then O’Neal even though we got rid of Nesterovic’s $8 mil and Ford’s undesirable contract, then Banks when we got rid of O’Neal, and now Calderon. In a perfect world, LBJ is paid $50 mil, Wade is paid $40 mil, Bosh is paid $20 mil, and most everyone else is paid either $10-12 mil or $1-2 mil, but it’s not a perfect world. There are always considerations like Jack needing extra money so the Pacers won’t match, Alvin Williams + JYD + Antonio Davis needing big money so Vince Carter will stay, etc. Teams that don’t pony up the money end up without a team, or like the Clippers (and even the Clips pony up on bad contracts).
The reason I bring this up is because getting a low salary PG like Farmar does not make the Raptors better simply because he’s saving us money. With or without Morrison’s expiring contract, we are still over the cap unless Bosh walks, so why care so much about saving MLSE money?
Anyway, I don’t believe this team has too many creators. Turkoglu was needed so Bosh wouldn’t have to create so much. It’s kind of backwards that the moment we upgrade our backup PG spot with someone who can create for himself and the team (as in not Ukic and not Solomon), we suddenly need to get rid of one of someone. Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve seen the Raptors offense screech to a halt more than several times in the past 11 games.
Calderon is something that neither of Jack or Turkoglu are. A good shooter. I don’t care if Turkoglu makes big shots (and so far he hasn’t even), but he’s never been confused with a good shooter. Jack isn’t horrible, but he’s not Calderon. In fact, Calderon is probably the best shooter left on the team (no, I don’t consider Bargnani a good shooter). Ironically, if you check the numbers, Calderon has been scoring more than Jack inside and at a much better rate (.741 eFG% vs .629 eFG%). Jack is only slightly better at drawing fouls as well (.101 vs .073).
There’s really no way of pleasing this fanbase. Last year we complained about not having a good backup. Before this season started, we complained about not having a 3rd string PG in case one of Calderon/Jack got injured. Now, we have too much depth. When someone goes down with an injury, watch the complaints about our depth. My head hurts. Why can’t we just wait for Calderon to come back and see how he does with Turkoglu creating more now?
I agree, wholeheartedly. Remember when Jose was out last year and then came back against Chicago (in Chicago, on a Friday night) and shot the lights out and led the team to a very nice victory? Well, it won’t surprise me in the least if he comes back in a very similar way, adjusting to what the team is (and needs) now. Which would make all the discussion here about trading him and whatnot, kind of moot … not that I don’t enjoy reading what everyone has to say about the subject. But, we forget how good he CAN be. And how good (I’d wager) he’ll be again … for the Raptors.
Jose had a poor jumpshot, 3 point range and free throw percentage. Now he is recognized at one of the leagues stronger shooting threats. It is ignorant to suggest that he is “redundant” because he could easily come back and fit right into the system with his work ethic and willingness to improve. Unless you are his personal trainer/agent, in that case you’re 100% right about him.
I agree with you that Jose plays/more suited for a half court game (which is what the playoffs become the deeper one goes into a game and series).
Why then, when BC wanted an up-tempo game day1, he signed Jose to the contract he did. Was this a mistake of evaluation (remember he let TJ go) or did he think Jose would change his game around?
My own thinking is that it was an evaluation issue.
“Hmm… don’t your numbers actually prove the exact opposite of what you what you intend?”
Glad you asked, but no, it doesn’t.
If you recall, both Calderon and Jack had horrible starts to the year. While Calderon’s lasted about ~4 games, Jack’s lasted another ~8 games after that. Those 12 games by Jack, he wasn’t a “starting caliber PG”, heck he wasn’t even a good back-up if you remember how everyone was calling him a terrible signing. I’d be willing to say that Banks in his current capacity has been better than Jack in the beginning of the season, because at least he didn’t jack up as many misses (no pun intended) that hurt the team.
Jack’s 11 games have had the benefit of himself not sucking, as well as not being at the start of the season when the team was still gelling together (if you buy that theory, as FAQ sells it, of course). If he gets credit for his 7-2, 0-2 with only Banks as backup, then Calderon should get credit for his 4-1, 1-6 (first 12 game spread against weak comp, strong comp) with only Jack as backup.
I’m not saying Jack hasn’t been good — he has — and Banks has also stepped up in Calderon’s absence, because if Jack played the way he did early on, we definitely would not have had our winning streak, bad teams notwithstanding. If he can keep it up for the rest of the season, then great, it’s always good to have depth at the point (see last year).
However, most of you are giving him *too* much credit. It’s only been 11 games so far with him starting, not an entire season, and you’re ready to appoint him starting point guard playing 35+? (Not you, but others on this board.) Last season, if anyone followed the Pacers and not just the box score (he had a very nice end to the season), you would have heard that they’d rather have Jack play fewer minutes. If I had to choose, I’d choose his season of work over 11 mostly weak games (several nail-biters, including against Minnesota, with easy wins over the almost starter-less Pistons and the almost win-less Nets).
I think Jack is a great backup, but a borderline starting 1. Yes, his style of play is more endearing to Toronto and her obsession with hard-working blue collar players. But why do we have to always play this game of keep a player, trade another? I couldn’t care less who starts, as long as the team wins, but it’s like you guys want him traded just so Jack can keep his starting spot. Field the best team you can; let the coach sort out the rest.
***BTW, I need to amend where I said top competition includes all .560+ teams. I took the lazy way of saying “Boston, LA, Atlanta, Cleveland, San Antonio, Orlando, Denver, Dallas, Phoenix, Portland and Utah”, but forgot Houston was also doing well. I consider Houston in the same group as Oklahoma City, teams the jury is still out on, especially since their scoring differential is barely positive.
Toronto raptors traded chris bosh and banks to san antonio for tim duncan… What do u guys think of that developing trade?
That it’s not one.
Enough with the Bosh for Duncan trade
That would be the stupidest trade of all time…
How about this for a trade…
To WSH: Jose Calderon, Demar DeRozen, Rasho Nesterovic
To TOR: Caron Butler, Earl Boykins & 2nd RD pick
I mean you have to give up talent to recieve it right? And watching Demar play, there’s no question he has potential but it might be an asset worth losing in this scenario. Plus having a guy like boykins as a change of pace veteran back-up might be what the doctor ordered? Just an opinion.
Terrible. Do Arenas for Calderon, Banks and Wright instead.
arenas will liven up the dressing room.
Yeah, and then we can be called the Toronto Arenas’s. And ACC can stand for Arenas’s Cool Crib. And I want him on our team like I want a boils to appear on the lower half of my body. He’s like Iverson but less physically dependable. He’s an egomaniac with a world of talent. He would destroy the chemistry that this team is trying to build, and he’d look damn good doing it.
I prefer the first trade scenario…especially if you can elevate that pick to a first round pick. I guess that depends on how hot on Demar they are.
Gilbert < Canadian Gun Laws
It’s a perfect fit.
They won’t do the Butler deal. Calderon and Butler are closer in talent than that. Rasho’s not someone to give up at this point b/c he plays a unique role on the team when he plays, is a good locker room guy by all accounts and doesn’t have a bad contract. Wright or Banks would be better to unload. There’s no way BC is giving up on DeRozan at this early stage.
Arenas brings more to the table than Iverson at this stage. I think he is misunderstood… He’d make reading the newspaper more fun…
I can’t believe you’re even suggesting Arenas for the Raps. He can liven up the dressing room by shooting a couple of guys. What a primo loser!!
I have a new nickname for Arenas…
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/2010/01/so-what-have-i-missed/
I just read the game post and comments – after the Celtics game most RR denizens would be fine with a minor shooting. Or even a major shooting.
The Raptors primary need for a big man is someone like an Anderson Varejao. Someone who can defend the screen and roll at a high level, who can make good defensive rotations particularly around the basket, and someone who is a good all-round man-to-man defender and is capable of defending both the power forward + center positions.
If that player is a shot blocker, great, if he isn’t … it doesn’t matter. It’s the sound team defense + versatile physical man-to-man defense that are top priorities.
Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani are playing around 35 and 34 minutes respectively. That leaves only 27 minutes at the power forward + center spots.
So, for one player to have a large impact on the defensive end for the Raptors he would need to get all of those minutes. That means Amir Johnson + Reggie Evans + Rasho Nesterovic all have minimal value to the Raptors. It also needs the Raptors would need to spend somewhere between $6-10 million to get a player good enough to play 27 minutes a night + have the desired impact defensively.
It will also be difficult for an interior defender to have that type of impact with Bargnani and Bosh starting alongside one another + playing so many minutes. Those two will be the ones who set the tone for the team defensively. So long as they’re getting those type of minutes, and playing as starters alongside one another, it will make it increasingly difficult for the Raptors third big man to come in and give the Raptors the type of interior defense + mindset that they need.
———————————————————-
That, or the Raps need to focus on acquiring a top perimeter defender who is capable of making a massive change to the team’s defensive identity. Those players are rare. Three or four, maybe half a dozen, of them in the league. They’re also highly valued and difficult to acquire.
Another extremely difficult option.
———————————————————-
Or the Raptors could break up the Bosh + Bargnani duo and replace one of them with a top interior defender. That would give them their best chance at changing the team’s defensive talent (easiest to do, most likely to work at a high level).
Damn, forgot one … Or, since the Raptors are unlikely to take any of those three options in the near-future (this season) they should then focus on trying to acquire role players who are good defenders. Guys like Arron Afflalo or Ime Udoka. No big names, just low priced solid rotation players who can fill roles for the Raptors.
It’s a band aid solution but the best option open to the Raptors if they’re unwilling to break up the Bosh + Bargnani duo and/or are unwilling to part with their best talent.
Ah — the minutes point + 4/5 defensive big point — the Raptors need a big man who can switch effectively between the power forward + center positions in order to create lineup flexibility.
With Bosh playing 35 minutes a night and Bargnani playing another 34 minutes, that leaves only 27 minutes, so for one player to have that large of an impact defensively he’ll need to be playing almost all of those minutes. That means he needs to be effective defensively alongside Bargnani and alongside Bosh. Bargnani lacks the athleticism + defensive ability to cover many power forwards and is much more effective against the Eric Dampier’s + Samuel Dalembert’s of the world so he Bargnani needs to matchup against opposing centers, meaning the new defensive big needs to be able to play against power forwards. Chris Bosh is at his best defensively when he can switch between the four and five positions particular when he’s facing a physical opponent. So in order to create lineup flexibility there you need a big who can defend big burly centers as well as some power forwards.
The Raptors could get away with an out-and-out power forward with Bosh + Bargnani playing all 48 of the minutes at the center position but a player who is comfortable at both PF + C would be a better option. The Raptors cannot get away with a true center, say someone like Brendan Haywood, because their three big man rotation (Bosh/Bargs/Haywood) would lack flexibility to matchup against quick athletic bigs, transition teams, perimeter orientated bigs. This will create a need for a fourth big in the rotation, an athletic power forward (like Amir Johnson), which will decrease the center’s minutes and make it more difficult for this new defensive big man to make a large impact defensively for the Raptors due to less minutes (Bosh + Bargs = 70 minutes + 5-10 minutes for the fourth big = 17-22 minutes for the center).
So preferably someone who defend at a high level at both PF + C positions or a true power forward. A prototypical center is a poor option due to lineup flexibility + minute concerns.
That’s why I think it’s important the Raptors get that type of defensive big man (4/5).
Word up Dave,
Your posts are good stuff. You should post here more, like the good ole days.
Any suggestion that Jose is going to be an $8-million-per-year back-up is absolutely absurd. And even if he does end up being a back-up when healthy, he will still play 25-30 minutes a game.
I have to ask, why do people believe Marcus Banks can’t be a back-up? Or better yet, why do so many Raps fans think we need two starting point guards to share minutes? That made sense when TJ Ford (under-sized and often injured) was our starting PG. We needed reassurance in the very liklihood he went down for several games or even the season. But Jarrett Jack has proven to be one of the most durable players in the league. Unlike TJ or Jose, Jack is more than cabable of playing 35 minutes a night or more and remaining healthy. We do not need, I repeat, do not need a back-up PG who plays 25 minutes a game. A back-up who can play a solid 10-15 minutes per game with decent defense is more than enough, and Banks can provide that.
Jose is not a bad player (defense aside), but he is a bad fit for this team. It is no coincidence that Hedo is playing better with Jose out of the lineup, as now Hedo is now longer relegated to being a mere spot-up shooter. And with Jose gone, we are not being beaten on every screen by opposing teams, and so Bargnani ( a very weak help defender but solid one-on-one defender, is not being exposed defensively as often.
Jose is a good player, despite what many Raps fans have said, especially lately, but he is a bad fit for this team and he must be traded. Not should be traded, but MUST.
very well said.
Ofcourse Jack will never get injured. Ofcourse its impossible that Jack’s success over the past few week won’t last. Ofcourse Hedo won’t go down with a long term injury and Jack won’t have to exclusively handle the ball. Ofcourse its impossible that Banks won’t be a legitimate back up PG. Ofcourse the schedule and teams played aren’t responsible for the Raps success over the past few weeks making the D and record look better….
OK so now that the sarcasm is done… let me say this. Jose MUST NOT BE TRADE. Not shouldn’t be traded. MUST NOT BE TRADED.
Come off the bench… maybe. Some control and consitency would be great with the 2nd unit. But don’t think for an instance that 2 or 3 weeks of successful basketball (regardless of the talent lvl, schedule, injuries etc.) is guaranteed to last the rest of the season. This team is much better served having more talent and more depth than less.
Getting rid of Jose because Jack has done such a good job while he is out is simply ridiculous.
Lets all sit back for a second. See what happens when Jose comes back, how the team plays, how he does with the starters and/or 2nd unit, and view the results before the gun is jumped.
Very well said.
I agree with “This team is much better served having more talent and more depth than less.” But why would you assume you would lose both in a trade?
I am still waiting for BryCo to bust out the Jose and Evans for Hinrich and Tyrus deal… not every deal needs to be win-lose. Hinrich may be a slight step down offensively, but we don’t need any more of that to be successful. A little more defensive stability would definitely do us a lot of good. There’s only one ball and I’d much rather it be in Turk’s hands.
Hinrich for Calderon would be great on it’s own, but They have some “rose” guy who is running the show there – maybe if their was a 3rd team, but we all know how complicated that gets…
“Hinrich for Calderon would be great on it’s own”
the exact reason why people shouldn’t be coming up with trade ideas for Jose.
I apologize for simply considering that we trade our above average starting PG for an average starting PG who happens to be just as good of a scorer, quicker, less of a playmaker, top 10 defensive players at his position (2nd team all-NBA defense alumni) and has 1 year less on his contract that happens to be front loaded and declining every year? Considering their the same age I would say they would be considered comparable talent in this league. I didnt say he was better, just a MUCH better fit for this particular team.
If the Laker’s GM and had the choice of trading the same package for either of them who would they take? I think it would be a toss-up that would be ultimately decided by fit.
average maybe, not above. If he was there would be no talk about Jack running the team or him being traded.
Jose’s still the same guy – the team has just changed and he cant be as ball-dominant with Turk around….
Terrible time to trade Calderon. Let him go through a good stretch and show teams that he’s worth a good piece.
And bringing Camby back to Toronto would be cool to see although I don’t think Toronto has the pieces to get it done.
Agreed.
Camby would be cool but he’s REALLY old and we’d have to get him for nothing