The “if Roko makes you look silly, you probably are” edition.
Banks – at least I now know why his shoulders are so muscular: they have years of having to prop up a flailing career based on broken promise. Sir, Roko Ukic slapped you with his purse tonight.
Bargnani – 
Belinelli – Great game tonight. Hit all his shots, was a stopper on defense, fought through all the screens, found his teammates for the open shot, and was the figurehead for this team, showing the bench can easily outplay the starters. Just kidding. I just got giddy because he looks like an elf in the picture above.
Bosh – sure, got a double double, brought some hustle, but he showed little energy in doing so. Did a nice job of pulling DeMar aside when DeRozan was blocked hard by Delfino, but he needed to do that to the entire team tonight and didn’t. Leadership calls for it and tonight is another feather in the cap for those that argue that Bosh isn’t a leader.
Calderon – stayed back in Toronto. Evidently Reggie wanted a buddy to go shopping with.
DeRozan – a little bit of a step back tonight. Delfino really got into his head with the aforementioned block and one killer crossover. Carlos made DeRozan look like a rookie the majority of the night. That said, DeRozan didn’t take either end of the floor sitting down and he kept pushing. Nice job on the boards, but needs to try and get inside again. The free throw line is your friend, sir.
Evans – anybody else think he lounges at home wearing a smoking jacket?
Jack – Brandon Jennings was in a slump, so Jarrett decided to give him an early Christmas gift. Ridnour too. Roko as well. Hell, I could swear I saw him give the Bucks mascot a happy ending. Seriously, Jack did what he could to keep the Raps in this, but 33 minutes against an active backcourt with your team giving up 14 turnovers (for 23 points) is just a recipe for frustration.
Johnson – admit it….you were excited when you heard Bargs was out, thinking someone like Amir could step in and prove that he should be “freed”. Well, sure, he can be freed, as long as he agrees to wear an electric shock collar. He provided his usual game, but when you are down two starters, Amir is the type of guy you turn to for a spark. Instead, it was like trying to light a fire with a magnifying glass using wet paper and the moon.
Mensah-Bonsu – well, at least he saw the floor tonight. The good news? POB outscored his British ass.
Nesterovic – started the game in place of Bargnani. Going up against Bogut probably wasn’t fair and it showed. No rebounds, 3 fouls and he only hit one shot. He got T’d up as well for arguing with the official. Yes, Rasho. A technical. It was like watching a bear get angry at a fish.
O’Bryant – came in, scored, pulled down a board. Let the trade talks begin.
Turkoglu- tell me, if you have a guy making over $50mil in your starting lineup that is healthy, would you expect him to step up when two of his fellow starters are out? I know I would. Smile all you want after you hit a shot, Hedo, just do me a favour and smile more often. I’d say his game tonight is below average as a Raptor, but I would be lying. Tonight was indicative of what he has brought to this team since signing here: disappointment.
Weems – solid game with some extended minutes. Nice hustle, actually saw flashes of half decent defense too. I still like his game, but his talent level reminds me of a Joey Graham-type.
Wright – better shot selection tonight turned into a nice boost to the bench scoring, especially when coupled with Weems. Unfortunately nights like tonight where Wright knows his role seem to be few and far between.
Driving The Bus: Chris Bosh
Under The Bus: Hedo Turkoglu
Game Theme:
123 Raps
Turkoglu was completely outplayed by his fellow countryman – Ilyasova. It was seriously embarrassing at times seeing the guy get burned over and over. Can’t wait to see how we bounce back after this shocker.
Agreed. Turkoglu NEEDS to step it up. This isn’t right. It’s like the guy is content now that he has his contract secured. We need the 08-09 Turkoglu to start playing for us, and I really don’t think that’s too much to ask for.
The description has it right! Its not that Hedo isn’t playing well its that he isn’t as good as his contract would make you think. I find it humorous that a team with Calderon, Hedo and Bargnani making roughlt 10 million a player questions whether Bosh is worth the max. He atleast plays like his salary dictates. These guys play like 4-5 million dollar players and thats why we suck. It’s also why Bosh will want out. These guys will kill our cap situation for the next hald decade. Colangelo has really screwed the fans. Hedo might have the most toxic contract in the league!
I was impressed that with 2 starters out he only took 8 shots. HE DIDN’T EVEN TRY TO PICK UP THE SLACK! What a waste of 50 Million!
I give up, Raptors = Bunch of lazy MoFo’s. Turk needs a 4 by 2 to the back of the head to wake him up.
2 great songs in a row..
Looks like true character of this team will be known on Friday night against Hawks.
I expected loss tonight, but not by this much. Hedo signing is looking worse every day.
I hope someone will ask Triano who were the 3 players he thought should have been removed from the starting line-up had he acted on his threat to switch 0-3 players.
The biggest issue I have with Colangelo is his weak hand in choosing the head coaches: renewing Mitchell and giving Triano head coach responsibilities. I believe the rosters have been overall average or above average however the coaching has been really bad. When I look at the Bucks or the Kings or the Rockets they really overachieve due to excellent coaching. Colangelo already saved Triano’s ass once with the team meeting. We’ll see what the rest of the month brings to the Raps: I expect to be at .500 by the end of the December. If not, January is pretty tough and by the All-Star break we may be out of play-off picture.
Ya .. right … the loss was Triano’s fault … he didn’t even score a point and he was on the floor for 48 minutes … wotta bad.
Looks like Raps can win without Jose but not without Bargs …. eh AlpRats..??!!!
And we gotta keep Bosh on this team cause without him things would really be grim … BC’s gotta re-sign Bosh … he’s just gotta ………
bosh laughing it up on the bench at the end of the game was a nice touch and a sign of a great leader. he got his stats and mailed it in on d….blame bargs.
Well, if you want to get into uncertainties, go right ahead. If you want a reply to your pie-in-the-sky comment, I’d say we’ve lost more than we’ve won with Andrea IN the lineup. That is a fact. Unfortunately, we’ll never know if we would have won tonight with Bargs, but as stated elsewhere, the interior game of Milwaukee was held pretty quiet, they only outrebounded us by 4, their guard play is what beat us, and if recent games by Andrea are any indication of what he may have brought offensively, I’m not sure his presence would translate into a 22 point difference. Maybe, but you are the one providing the argument, so you should be the one providing the material to back it up.
Well, I just used deductive reasoning .. or is that inductive reasoning .. I always get the two mixed up .. but if Bargs returns before Jose and Raps win again, that will answer your questions … and vice versa … but if both return at the same time and …. oh never mind ….
haha…good stuff.
So, curious, using that reasoning, what would be said if the Raptors had won tonight or, better still, if they win against the Hawks without Jose and Andrea?
The answer is quite simple.
Bogut only played 27 minutes in the game and like barg, Ilyasova is usually stationed at the 3-point line to spread the defense. Milwaukee played small for more than half the game. The problem with your comment is that even with a small lineup, the raptors were out-rebounded by 4 makes it even more funny.
LOL….LOL….LOL….LOL
A bunch of losers were actually excited that bargs was out thinking amir and rasho next to bosh would improve our d.I think on most nights Bargnani takes the hit for our bigs lack of rotations…tonight Bosh’s rotation D has been exposed. I guess we really took Andrea’s D for granted. A team with only one legit big burned us.
RASHO=0 BOARDS AMIR=6 BOARDS=FAIL.
feels weird with no bargs to be scapegoat and whipping boy for tonight’s horrendous loss…crackhead alt shows his true worth just postin a screen cap provin he just hates bargs face.
maybe if bargs was black and his name was andre bargwani from nigeria alt would be sucking his pee pee and all you clowns would be rockin his jersey claimin hes the next great big c.
You are so classy.
Tough for someone of your ilk to actually come out and state your case without lowering it down to a childish level. Here’s an idea, try sticking to being argumentative without the childish, and racial, insults.
The bigs of Milwaukee accounted for 33 points. Taking a look at the shot chart (http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=291209015) and looking at PIP (36), 81 points were scored from outside the house that Bosh, Rasho, Amir were protecting. Was there exposure on poor defensive rotations on some of those 36? Absolutely. However, I’m not sure you want Rasho or Bosh helping outside the paint and exposing an open lane to the guards.
…emo much?
Great retort. Again, no answer.
trugoy…if you were to write your observations without all the excess adjectives, slander, and dissing, your comments would actually show that you have something worthwhile to contribute in a forum. i hope your next one reflects it…
altraps, i appreciate the class with which you handled it. keep up the great stuff. cheers.
The bucks played with a small lineup for at least half of the game. Bogut only played 27 minutes and Ilyasova played mostly on the 3-pt line. The problem I have is why couldn’t Bosh and the other bigs take advantage of the small lineup of the Bucks. In the first half Bosh scored 18 points and 7 rebounds. In the second half he had 8 points and 3 rebounds.
Why did Hedo not post up when Bogut when to bench?
How was Bosh’s rotation d exposed???
Are you comparing rotations between these two players, cause in reality the difference is laughable.
If Barg’s was black and from Nigeria would you be complaining about his rotations being exposed?
Most likely.
maybe this game goes to show that the difference in Bargs D and Bosh’s D isn’t as “laughable” as everyone thinks.
Do I think Bosh is a better defender than Bargs…in general, yes. But there are so many times where Bosh is not even watching the play, or doesn’t challenge a shot/drive, or doesn’t take a charge, or doesn’t give a hard foul. I always have to sit here and read how bad player X or player Y is at D… but maybe, just maybe, it applies to more than just the choosen few that have become the scapegoats for this teams D.
I will say that nobody wants Bosh to get into foul trouble, sometimes giving up a bucket so he doesn’t pick up an early 2nd, 3rd or 4th foul makes sense…. but when he is not in that position, or the game is getting out of hand, or is on the line, trying preventing that bucket can be more important.
Now this was just one game… but how about we start watching these games with a more open mind as to where the defense goes wrong instead of simply assuming it must be one or two guys causing the problems. Realizing that playing good D takes an ENTIRE team and not a few guys. That just because a player gets beat here or gets an easy bucket there doesn’t mean that one or two guys are instantly at fault. Any time anyone on the opposing team gets a bucket EVERYONE is at fault.
Missed the game tonight. Got to say though, this sort of result sort of helps put Barg’s importance to the team in focus. Maybe we wouldn’t have won with him, but looking at Rosho’s and Amir’s lines he definately couln’t of hurt us. The spacng he brings is critical for this team as it stands as it opens up driving oppurtunities. Hope he’s back in the line up soon. I also think this should help put away the start Nesterovich movement.
On another note, how does turk not step up tonight? People say he doesn’t get touches, well tonight he should have gotten a tonne. Instead his stat line says he did notta. I’m not sure if that’s because the rest of the team was on fire or something, but like Altraps said he should have stepped up tonight. Perspective: Bargs takes 13.3 shots/game and hedo takes 10.6 shots/game. Tonight, with Bargs out and his normal touches going to others, Hedo took 8.
I the overexpanded NBA, teams tend to be pretty fragile – you take two highly skilled players out of virtually any team’s lineup and they are going to suffer. If players were perfectly interchangable you wouldn’t be paying them the huge salaries they get.
let’s hope AB and JC are back and healthy very soon.
“but 33 minutes against an active backcourt with your team giving up 14 turnovers is just a recipe for frustration.”
Just curious, but how is 14 turnovers such a big deal when it’s 1) lower than the league average, and 2) just 1 turnover worse than the team average?
Seems even more like you’re grasping for straws when it was actually 13 turnovers.
Well, if you allowing the opposing team to score 23 off of them, that is frustration. Jack alluded to it in his postgame as well.
With respect to the number, if you check the box below, you’ll see they have 13 listed in the player column, but 14 stated directly below it, so not grasping at straws, just using a stat provided.
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291209015
Okay, so they had a team turnover, but what I’m getting at is this: the problem was that they allowed them to score 23 points off those turnovers, and not that they had 14 turnovers. If that’s what you meant, maybe you should have simply said it. =P
Sure, good point, done.
Not sure how that rebuffs your “Seems even more like you’re grasping for straws when it was actually 13 turnovers.” comment since, as you see, you were wrong.
I’ll take the smiley face as an apology. =P
While you are up getting a straw, can you grab me one as well?
(i kid, i kid)
Well we saw what it was like without Bargnani on the floor tonight and it wasn’t pretty. When he is playing, he spreads the floor and makes it easier for the other 4 players on the court. Hopefully Andrea will be back on Friday.
Oh, we better pray, I think we need Bargs and Jose back to stand a chance. Banks sucks. Jose I think should still start, Jack is a great backup, but I just see Jose as a better starter than Jack. Don’t be hating, not talking stats, just from what I’ve seen.
But yeah, without Bargnani I thought we would play better, but boy, was I wrong, I think most of us were wrong on that one!
Tough to tell from one game, but I think the Bargs haters will be silenced when they realize that neither Rasho nor Amir nor some mutant hybrid of the two could offer what Bargs does. Lets wait and see if Atlanta fully mutilates us in Bargs’ absence on Friday (..mind you, they strung us up like that skinned corpse from the beginning of the movie Predator last time WITH Bargs in the lineup…)
I fail to grasp the point you are making. So, Atlanta anhilates the Raps with or without Bargnani. What does that really mean or prove re Bargs. I havent seen any groundswell of opinion advocating there were backups on the team who would make more of a difference. My own hope has been for Bargs to balance out his game some more…become more of an inside presence…not spend as much time on the perimeter waiting to launch the long shot and when he doesnt get the ball to just remain fixated. He has more talent than many and has shown it before (latter of last season and the first couple of weeks this).
I’m not making a point for you to grasp regarding ATL. What you can take from my comment is that Atlanta beat us with Bargs and will beat us without him as well. You can also throw me some love for the pure awesomeness of my Predator reference.
My initial comment is directed to those people who were calling for Amir or Rasho to start over Bargs. I would suggest you read the RR forums or previous posts for reference and some background on ur comment:
“I havent seen any groundswell of opinion advocating there were backups on the team who would make more of a difference.”
Turkoglu is a worthless old Turkish turd-ball!!!!!!!
Can you picture our team without his unbelievably undeserving 55 million dollar contract
I mean what prompted BC to sign-up his stale ass for 5 F#&KN years?!?!? was he expecting these crappy raptors to make a run to the conference finals that required his old ass to be on-board???
as much as i hated Marion… at least that guy could be relied upon for solid rebounding totals night in and night out……. our ‘Turkish MJ’ on the other hand has been one of the most inconsistent and disappointing starters in the NBA this season!!!!
And WTF is UP with this teams invisible defense FFS??!??!?
That’s a moot point since Marion did not want to come back to the Raptors.
Is that true?
Incorrect. Marion would’ve gone to the highest bidder/longest deal. Nowhere did he say that the Raptors weren’t an option. I’m still trying to figure out whether BC’s offer to him was actually a serious one or just made to raise his market value.
In hindsight, given how Turkoglu’s being used, Marion would’ve been a better choice but it’s still early, if Triano ever decides to earn 1/10th of his paycheque he’ll figure some proper usage for Hedo.
Do you really think its in the best interest of the Raptors to let it be known that Marion turned them down? How does that make Bryan’s gamble look?
You’ve got to face it. Just because you know and I know that Toronto is great, doesn’t mean every friggin’ free agent wants to play here.
If you simply read between the lines, it’s obvious Marion was not putting much stock in Toronto’s offer.
And BTW, it’s kind of amusing that you can say “incorrect” so matter of factly, yet add that you’re still trying to figure out what exactly happened. How does one go with the other?
I’ve always believed that the Raptors need a superior rebounder at the 3 to make up for Bargnani’s lack of rebounding fortitude, but that doesn’t change the fact that we would have signed Marion if possible, and only barring that did we settle for the “next best” FA — next best, as in the best one that would want to sign with us.
There was no f#cking way Marion was going to sign with Toronto. If BC could have signed him, he would have. Just like he tried to sign Ariza. The only reason we signed Turk was because he was the last big name FA out there and he was about to sign with Portland.
T.Craptors
That name is solid reason for the Raps to become Huskies.
And the blue & while unis look better.
hedo $53 million…hasn’t even been playing like a $7 million dollar man. otis smith may have been on to something when he said that portland should be happy they never picked him up. 20+ games and we’ve seen no consistency and an ability to step up. give me something to believe in hedo.
$7 million dollar/year man
So far Mr. Clutch hit only one winning shot for us. That’s against Washington. He made that winning shot after about 20 games he played for us. Continuing at this rate, he will win 3 more games for Raptors. Is that worth 5yr/53 million contract?
Hedo’s contract is beyond ridiculous.
Clutch or No Clutch?
http://www.basketballfreeforall.com/archives/2007
I love him and Bosh laughing it up on the bench, too. Hey, I know to you it’s just a job and you get paid no matter how many games you lose or shots you miss, but you could pay the fans a courtesy, act like a professional and make it look like you are not laughing in my f face by saving the yuk yuk shyte for the locker room.
I think Bosh was laughing/astonished that Roko was hitting three’s cause you could see him say ‘he never used to do that’.
That being said I love how Toronto fans always get upset about this but every team and mnay players in the NBA do this and no one gives a damn about it…….except us.
A win’s a win and a loss is a loss no matter how happy or upset you look.
i can’t believe it i actually missed Bargani aka(Banana) tonight, we definitely could have used Bargs against the slow Bogut and Rasho should never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever get any fucking minutes, i would rather take O’bryant over him any day. by the way bucks made some tough shots tooo.
Triano seems to love making teams beat us from the outside, which is fine if their shots aren’t falling. Tonight they were.
So the other nights when Barg played, and the opposing team scored a lot of runs it was because he played bad defense. No one is going to say that barg is a great defender but your argument is very weak by stating that tonights loss was because there shots were falling. The reason is that the raptors played terrible defense.
I don’t usually post but I felt I had to post this comment. This year I have noticed that the entire fault of the defense is Bargnani’s fault. If he plays on the second unit the defense will improve. Tonight we did not have either Barg and Calderon yet the opposing team scored 117 points (52.9%). I am a confused raptor fan. What happened? Wasn’t our great franchise player pivoting our great defense without the two terrible players. What was the result? This blog and fans have been abusing these two players without ever criticizing anyone else. After the loss against Atlanta, three raptor players talked about defense and indirectly blamed certain euro players on the team? Where were Bosh, Jack and Wright tonight on defense? What they said was only trash talk.
What happened to Chris Bosh in the second half? He had 18 points and 7 rebounds in the first half. He finished with 26 points and 10 rebounds. It seemed that once he reached his magical number of 20/10 he went on cruise control.
Hedo played terrible but you cannot blame the loss on him. The reason we lost is because our defense stinks. This entire team including our franchise player cannot play sound defense.
I, for one, have never said the entire defensive blame should rest with Bargnani. Jose is a terrible defender on most nights, Jack started the year on a horrible start on both ends of the floor, Hedo has seemed disinterested in the majority of the games, I’ve called Bosh out on a few occasions (and you neglect to mention I did so tonight as well), DeMar was being lit up early against some of the best players in the league….I’ve mentioned all these things in the past, so you are incorrect that I say all of it is because of Andrea. (as an aside, you may have also missed that I said Jack was unable to stop his checks tonight as well).
So, yes, you are correct that this entire team sucks at defense. Stats bear it out, watching a game bears it out, listening to the players and the coaching staff bears it out. What is incorrect is saying that we haven’t pointed out people other than Andrea.
Please tell me you’re kidding about POB over Rasho. If Bogut saw POB come into the game at any point tonight he would have crushed him instantly. Didn’t you notice that Pops (a guy with a non-guaranteed deal) is called on before POB? And the only reason Patty dressed tonight was because Bargs was out.
The only highlight of this game on ESPN here in the US was the mop getting stuck.
You know why we were trying to make them beat us from the outside, altraps?
Because Bargs wasn’t in there to guard Bogut. CB4 and rasho had to guard him instead, and it wasn’t pretty. Early in the game they tried to attack the post, found out we were spending all of our time trying to limit Bogut, and proceeded to bomb away while we went under the screen every fu*king time. Bargs helps because when he is in there, with his mobility, we have the ability to switch if we want and still have Bosh down low to help out. Without him, we have to play straight up and bring the help, which hasn’t worked all year.
If Bargs is in there, we don’t do that. We let Bargs guard his position with only light help, and Jennings doesn’t get 3 or 4 wide open shots at the end of the first quarter to get the ball rolling (and neither does Ridnour or Roko–who really were the ones to kill us since we picked them to be our poison of the night).
Now, the other technical thing was the jennings was coming into this game taking a Jordanesque 19 shots a game or something ridiculous and not hitting them (I think someone said he was shooting like 35% in his last several games). Roko doesn’t usually hit his threes either. But when you’re daring them to shoot that badly, you’re asking for it.
Maybe it’s just time for you to give it up. Bargs helps out a shitload more than he doesn’t–whether he’s shooting poorly due to some nagging injury or not.
To be honest, I don’t think Hedo is 100% either. I remember the media saying after the last game against the Bulls, I think, that Hedo was clutching his side after the game and asked if he was okay. Triano gave some “Well, we need wins, and we need them to play, and I’m not going to ask them if they’re hurt” BS before admitting he didn’t know about their conditions.
The Raptors are playing through some tough injuries now. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, as good players like Hedo don’t just go to sh*t in one off-season. It happened to jack and wright and Calderon early, and they are starting to come around.
Show some patience, Raps Fans.
Bargnani is a decent man to man defender but his rotations are terrible. Having said that, your point is bang-on. With him in the line-up it does give the Raps what little impact it possibly can have in a given game. Allowing energy guys like Amir come in and do what he does.
Raps need everyone contributing for a chance to win. We are not, and were never a one-man team. The team’s brief history should clearly illustrate that.
Unfortunately all the Raptor fans on this site are whiny f#cking bitches…thinking they know everything there is to know about bball…patience isn’t a word in their vocabulary. All they try to do is blame a different player/coach/manager each and every game…even though some players are playing through injuries…and then there are the Bosh haters…padding his stats…these people are too f#cking stupid period. I guess Wade, Lebron, Amare, Dirk and all the other FA’s are all padding their stats too…whatever the f#ck that means.
Amen.
Unfortunately Weems looks like Joey and Wright has the decision making ability of Joey. We may have gotten a 2:1 without knowing it.
Amazing how I was thinking the same thing last night when Weems got in, and Wright has to be stupider than anyone on this team, and I think Joey actually made better decisions than Wright if that’s possible.
I might also add that bargs would have colected more fouls on Bogut, and got him out of the game quicker than he did. That would have allowed us to focus more on getting the ball out of Jennigs hands, and would have made life for Milawaukee much more unpalatable.
Bargnani isn’t exactly lacking in the accumulating fouls department, lets be fair. He is much improved this season in that department, but historically it has been an issue.
As I said to FAQ above, the “what if” game has never been of interest to me. You could be 100% correct, but if Roko was Roko and hit 1 of his shots tonight (like he normally does) the game would have been closer. If Hedo hit some of his shots or facilitated the offense, it would have been closer. To me, those are just 2 situations that were real and in the game tonight, not a what-if scenario. Same thing with people thinking Reggie Evans will ride in on a white horse and save us from our defensive sins. It’s a nice feel-good discussion, but it means nothing if it isn’t lived up to.
We were a team without two of its starters tonight and it showed.
I agree that you may not score a lot of points without both Barg and calderon. What about the defense? Shouldn’t the defense be better without these two starters. From your previous comments and many others on this board about Barg and calderon, the game should have been close. We had our franchise defensive player in Bosh, our fearless PG Jack, dependable SF Wright and our athlete Amir on the court.
Without Barg and Calderon, shouldn’t we be a better defensive team?
What happened? Oh ya. The other team made shots.
ummm, yeah, they did. More than half of them.
Can’t speak for others, but I never said the defense would be better without Jose and Bargnani, using our current roster as replacements. Jack might be a smidge better than Jose in some respects, but who do we have backing up Andrea? Rasho? Amir? Both are good situational defenders, but not starting-five defenders. Do I think we could have a better big man that is better than Andrea on the defensive end? Absolutely, but he doesn’t exist on this roster, unless you are looking at the guy with awful wardrobe and, again, I say that is marginal and is an outright loss if you factor in the offensive game.
All goes back to what I said pre-season. This team is deep in numbers only, not talent.
Didn’t we have a solid defensive minded cente last year in Jermaine O’Neal. This year he is playing solid defense for the Miami Heat and scores ok points. Why did he not work in Toronto? Was it because of Andrea Bargnani?
You must be new if you are bringing up Jermaine O’Neal to me.
I’m curious, you have yet to mention coaching or just the general dynamic/fabric of this team. Why is that? Do those things get a passing grade in your view? The team has had a record that has been worse every season since they won the division. Is it because of Andrea Bargnani?
Maybe it is bargnani.
If my memory serves me correctly, bargnani played more on the second unit for the first three years. I think he only played as a starter this year. Do you think that a player on the second unit in his first three years could have such an effect on the team to make it what it is — a rudderless boat with no direction. The team does not have an identity. It has no leader.
About the coaching I would rate it average. Triano is not great but he is not bad either.
I think the problem on this team is that there is no leader. Chris Bosh is the franchise player and the best player on the team. But great leaders are those who make others around them better and push them to achieve at a level far above what they could do on an individual basis. Great leaders have excellent communication skills and know when to be stern and when to be gentle with their teammates. They also demonstrate that they are ready to be the first one to sacrifice for the sake of the team.
In most sports like ice hockey, soccer, etc , the top scorer or best player is not necessarily the captain or leader of the team. The leader is respected by everyone and will admit when he is wrong and listen to advice offered by his/her teammates. Toronto raptors are currently devoid of any leadership.
Rudderless boat with no direction.
Our offense and defense suffered tonight because we were missing Bargnani… Our offense was stagnant and Bosh was reduced to taking mostly jump shots. Bargnani spreads the floor giving bosh more room in the paint. With Rasho and Amir the paint was congested giving Bosh little chance of driving the lane.
On Defense… Bargnani was missed because he is a good post defender and would have done a better job then any of our post defenders (Bosh included). Moreover, if asked to, Bargnani somehow has the ability to keep the other teams PG in front of him (most of the time). This might have also worked in keeping Jennings under control. As, Bargnani’s length would have allowed him to contest more outside jumpers.
I understand that much of this post could be deduced to mostly assumptions and that this is only one game. However, I strongly believe that the call to trade Bargnani (or demote him to second unit minutes)for a hard-nose “traditional” Center is insane.
Altraps, you’re a douche! Swallow your pride and admit that Bargnani does alot to help this team win games
I never suggested that Bargnani be traded or moved to the bench. Copy and paste here where I said that, please.
With respect to winning games, we aren’t even a .500 ball club, so not sure how he (or anybody else) is helping us “win games” since we are losing more than winning. Explain that, please.
The Raptors really missed Jose and Andrea tonight.
So much for all those (bizarre) calls for Rasho to start! lol
Amen!
Although unfortunately it would likely take a week or more without Bargnani and Jose for most of these guys to admit it.
@brothersteve Personally, I’d like to see Jose backing up Jack when he comes back and Bargnani playing starter minutes off the bench.
Obviously, Rasho had one of his worst games of his Raptors career, but he’s the most experienced Raptors player and could possibly help the team get off to a better defensive start to the 1st & 3rd Q’s.
I think Bargs loves being the focal point on offense and if he comes in with the 2nd unit, with Jose and Amir, he would be that. I really liked what Charles Oakley said re: having too many scorers on the floor. At times that’s why the Raptors struggle – too many options. I think juggling the line-up and mixing in the less offensive minded players, might help both Bargs and Hedo get their respective games on track.
Just a thought.
The only reason to start Jack over Calderon is if the Raps are going to run all of their offensive sets through Turkoglu – which wouldn’t be a bad idea! But even then Calderon is the far superior shooter for Turkoglu to kick the ball out to over Jack.
Mostly I just hate seeing Jack and Calderon on the floor together when the other team is playing a true SG. They are brutal defensively on the floor together.
Bargs & Bosh should start together and finish together (this does set up Bosh inside) but in between they should be featured separately in the offense – Let Bargs get involved in the offense.
I think it also must be said that Jack is the engine that makes the second unit go. banks is a capable ball handler and on okay defender but doesn’t facilitate jack sh*t (although he did have a nice pass to Bosh on the secondary break today). Without a strong point guard to get the team into its offence, and with Hedo shying away from the ball due to his (injury? lack of role in the offence?) there is simply no pick and roll magic with our effort bench guys (like Amir and Rasho or pops).
No Jack=Jacksh*t from the bench.
Looks like the only starters who earned their pay today were Jack’n Bosh … and the only bench players who stepped up were Antoine and Sonny for a combined 22/2 tally. deMar looked kinda good again but with only 8/6 in 25 minutes of play.
The way Triano was subbing in the bodies, it certainly appeared he considered this a throwaway loss game … and tried to continue his development strategy for the players … because I can see more trades happening next year if BC has anything to do with it … believe it.
I assume you mean trades in January?
Where are all the Bosh, Jack, Amir and Wright fans? I thought only European players are soft.
Since Barg and Calderon did not play, Hedo will be tonight’s scapegoat.
The problem is the defense. They all stink at it.
So, curious, give me some things that Hedo did well tonight.
I listed what Bosh, Jack and Amir didn’t do well above, so now it’s your turn to say what Hedo did to give this team a chance to win.
Hedo did Jack..
*Get it?*
lol
I mentioned earlier that Hedo like rest of the team played terrible. The discussion for tonight’s game should be not about one specific player but should be about the defense. We scored enough points to win. We could not stop the other team even when our two worst defenders (this has been repeated over and over again by this blog and fans on this board) were not playing. The bucks had won only one game in their last nine. We were never in the game from the beginning.
When has Hedo played passable defense this year? As a starter? If he was at least putting pressure on the opposing team with his offense we might give him a pass (somewhat on the defensive end.)
Same type of argument you always make…wow.
The discussion will come with the recap tomorrow morning. Roll Call is about individuals and their efforts. Team defense is not an individual. Someone who plays “terrible” is. So, if indeed Hedo “played terrible”, then he deserves to be under the bus.
You are right. The roll call is targeted towards player performance.
Sorry about that.
Hedo – under the bus? He has been under double-decker for more than a month now (given the role he is supposed to play on this team).
Hedo Career PER = 15.0
Average PER = 15.0
Hedo is an average player, period. He isn’t an all-star type player. So people on this forum are expecting somebody who has been average in his career to be above average to justify his payday. That simply is not going to happen, on average, because he is simply doesn’t have the talent to do it.
He is overvalued, period. The onus isn’t on him to justify the contract, because he can’t. The onus(read:blame) falls on Colangelo for signing this guy.
I think that Colangelo signed this guy because Ariza and Marion said no to him. If Arsenalist is right and Marion may have signed with us if we brought the right amount of money, then Colangelo is moronic for not signing him.
If Marion and Ariza did in fact say no, then in his mind Colangelo had to sign Hedo to try an maximize wins so that Bosh would stay.
The option of not signing Hedo may have saved us some money, but probably would have guarenteed 30-35 wins instead of the 39-42 range that I think the team will finish in.
Unless Colangelo is very poor at valuing talent, I don’t think he really believed that this was a 50 win team, but he wanted to catch lighting in a bottle and hope somehow people played above their heads for a full season to convince Bosh.
A truer analysis of this team would have likely predicted 39 or so wins (vegas line, dave berri, other basketball-savvy people). So basically Colangelo went all out to try and get Bosh to come back by signing a buch of people – but these same people wouldn’t be enough to bring the wins necessary – so Colangelo just screwed himself and the fans.
BC may be average at evaluating talent, but what he’s def. poor at is putting together various talent to form a team.
He sees numbers and assets, markets, ticket sales, costs. He doesn’t see basketball…he simply cannot translate talent into winning.
Flux,
I hear ya, but how then is the success in Phoenix explained? Luck, Dad’s influence? Alignment of the stars? Voodoo?
I really think Delfino was in DeRozans head early in the game. He burned him for a couple of dunks early and Carlos has always played with a chip on his shoulder. That block he laid on Demar seriously pissed him off, which is good to see because it means he cares.
Speaking of Bosh’s leadership skills (or lack thereof), I thought it was great for him to talk to Demar after that play. Even if it didn’t help his play for the rest of the game it’s good to see that he at least tried to give him some advice, or had his back. Secondly, when Bosh was laughing on the bench at the end of the game I can only assume he was saying something about the three that Roko just hit. His comment was probably something along the lines of, “Who the hell is the horse-faced bastard bombing three’s on us? Wait!…Roko?? (turns to someone) That guy played for us last year and couldn’t hit a three if the hoop was as big as Sheed’s bald-spot!”
Agreed with all points.
What I find funny is that Bosh is praising his own leadership skills in the postgame. I certainly didn’t see him talking to his guys (other than DeRozan) and encouraging them to fight. It also didn’t show in his own game.
That was a subpar game from him. Almost like he saw what was happening and didn’t want to dig down and try to carry them.
That’s because Bosh is a great player, but far from a leader. All that is ok if you actually know your limitations and admit them to yourself and others. Problem is the franchise has made Bosh’s ego what it is today with some help from himself.
To be fair, he was all by himself today, and the team did try to make a run at Milawukee late, so I think he feels they at least didn’t roll over before taking it in the as$. He told them not to give up and they didn’t.
So, I guess…that could be construed as leadership.
I don’t know. I think this being a back to back and having Jennings go all Jordan on us in the first quarter basically put this one in the bag early. Milwaukee is a very solid defensive team, and they weren’t going to give up a huge lead if it was gifted to them.
Skiles was a guard in the league, and he knows how to get his guards and forwards shots against particular defences. I really don’t think we had a good gameplan today on d. The adjustment on Jennings needed to come MUCH quicker from Triano.
Bucks played against Boston last night and had one win in their last nine games.
The back to back is not an excuse for tonight’s match especially when two of the worst defenders (mentioned over and over again by the Toronto media, blogs and many fans) on the raptors were not playing. I am not saying that we should have we won. All I am saying is that our defense should have kept the game close.
Didn’t Jack, Bosh and Wright indirectly blame certain (Calderon, Bargnanin) raptor players for committing the same defensive errors over and over again. They said players need to be made accountable for their errors?
What happened tonight? Who is going to account for their poor defensive play tonight?
Fact is you’re right!!
We were playing one of the worst teams which should be a must win and an easy win with our talent. Which means that if anyone were right about changes to the starting lineup we would have won tonight. We lost because the defense tonight was even worse without two of our starters. We did not lose on the offensive end of the floor.
They should be made accountable indeed. However there is a difference between 1 game and a quarter of a season so you should keep the sample size in context.
What happened tonight is Jack got torched by Jennings.
What has been happening all year is shabby perimeter d from Calderon and non-exitsant rotations from Barg’s.
The defence should have kept the game closer last night but it didn’t
So last night was Jack’s fault? I think the entire team including our great franchise player played terrible defense.
How can the team without its two worst defenders as you so eloquently have pointed out give up 117 points. So the trash talk by the three (Bosh, jack and Wright) amigos should not be taken seriously. One game or ten, they did not live up to their words.
I am not suggesting we should have won but the game should have been close.
So last night no one missed any rotations and there were no blow-bys? If that was the case how did they score 117 points?
Last night the TEAM lost as is always the case when the TEAM loses. No one man accounts for a loss.
If you are looking to analyze the game I would definitely say that the guards of the Bucks (Jennings, Delfino, Ukic, Ridnour) thoroughly outplayed our guards so Jack’s defence would definitely be one of the problems last night.
YOU eloquently put (Bargs’ and Jose) them as our two worst defenders. I just re-stated what everyone that is unbiased and most basketball observers should be able to see. Frankly I think Hedo is just as bad as either of them defensively, and once again Sherlock I made reference to a one game sample as opposed to a quarter seasons worth of games. If you don’t see the significance in that, I can’t educate you to the errors of using 1 game to justify your weak point.
The talk of not being accountable should be talked up but by your standards them speaking up as a team (and who knows how many other players felt this way) is an issue. Apparently Bosh never said anything in this meeting but you’re arguments this whole thread have been one tired and one dimensional focusing upon this. No one said Jack didn’t play well defensively last night. It was obvious but whats your point? When people say that about Barg’s defence do you go into a depression now or wait until the next game to see if he corrects it and plays better?
I agree with you the game should have been closer and probably would have if we had those two guys……for their normal offensive production. No one else outside of our ‘great franchise player’ as you so eloquently put it did anything offensively.
There’s a guy on the Turkey National Basketball Team named Ermal Kurtoğlu. If we switch Turkoglu’s name around a bit, maybe we can substitute Kurtoglu to play for the Raptors
roko. ukic.
it’s really that difficult to understand that Bargs is a good center?
that brings something that few players in the league can provide?
that his mere presence demand attentions from the defense, and free spaces for his teammates?
a player that can score in efficient ways but doesn’t demand to be the focus of the attack?
90% of nba teams would kill to have bargs on their roster. and on a fair contract!
but here I costantly read “bench bargs” “amir is better” “soft” “rebounds”…
it must be good for a player to know that you always got the perfect scapegoat every game.
bench bargs. amir is better. soft. rebounds.
Amir isn’t better. He just plays with more heart. He has no where near the innate ability for the game.
“Plays with more heart”- can you break that one down for me? Didn’t notice that “heart” helping us last night, did you?
So Bargs hitting game deciding big shots, getting big blocks in crunch time, making key defensive plays does not require “heart”. Gimme a break. U guys swilling ur Bargs haterade keep it going, see how well we do without him in the lineup.
When you all hate Bosh out of town we will see what the great andrea will do, he is nothing more than a great white hype!
waaaa!
Yeah, it will be the fans fault. Not BC and his wonderful moves or how this team sucks, as Bosh said.
Get nunya -ed.
Brakeman this string was not about Bosh in case you cannot read. Why is it that every time guys like you see anything positive written about Bargnani your immediate reaction is to not only tell everyone how much you think Bargnani stinks but also to make sure everyone knows of your man love for Bosh!!
Just because someone says something positive about Bargnani doesn’t mean you have to show who’s better. They play on the same team.
Fornfuture roll calls we should include the coaching staff this way we can throw them under the bus as well.
Here here…absolutely…another third quarter where Triano wouldn’t pull the trigger on the momentum deflecting time out.
“I could swear I saw him give the Bucks mascot a happy ending.”
LOL.. funny post today, some really good stuff in there.
I pretty much agree with your roll call bang on. Good call.
Bosh had another good stats game but other than the short talk with DeRozan was invisible as a leader and the Bucks are the kind of team a max player dominates and beats even without two starters.
Hedo has in my opinion been the worst starter on average and looks average. He doesn’t even look interested and yet no one would dare say he should have been one of the benched starters.
Jack played ok and played like Jack. Agressive, ok on defense, careless passes ( turn overs). Average.
DeRozan played pretty decent for a rook playing against a veteran like Delfino with something to prove.
Let’s stop the replace Barg’s bs on this site because you’re right this team has some role players to back him up but no one close to replacing him.
Wright is the dumbest piece of crap we’ve had in awhile. I still cannot believe he of all people has the balls to call out other players.He is right there with Hedo as the worst dissappointment so far this year.
Is there an analogy between the Raps team and the RR one?
Arse might be the progressing franchise player…what about the other dudes? There’s definitely at least one that can’t rebound in here…and he kinda hates Bargs, who rebounds a lot more than he does.Funny, uh?
thank you for not making me Sunny Weems in your analogy.
Triano is pissing me off. How many times has Wright been able to do anything good off the dribble, and yet how many times does he enter the game and try to do just that? Triano needs to get his head out of his ass and instill some discipline on this team. Scouting reports would help too. Earth to Triano — Roko’s not known to be a great jumpshooter so it’s not a great idea for your guards to crowd him and let him get into the lane. Play the damn percentages.
The Turkoglu signing is like the Kapono signing on a mix of steroids and peyote. A team that needs defence and rebounding signs a slow happy-go-lucky 30 year old who shoots 41% (FG) and 35% (3pt) the previous year to a 5 year 50 million dollar contract. And just think BC was willing to do that without knowing he’d have extra cash to sign some bench guys. Genius!
i agree that he hasn’t played well and he better play better if the raps are going to amount to anything however hindsight is always 20/20 and its’ still a long season.
The signing was praised at the time it was made. Hedo was coming off two excellent seasons and a strong performance on a team that went to the NBA finals.
Say he wasn’t signed? Marion wouldn’t necessarily have resigned – would we have joey graham back playing the three?
Here’s a question. Does Wright have a good enough offensive game to take the shots he does? Is him trying to find his ‘O’ now, going to pay dividends in the New Year?
There are moments when he seems to be able to dial in and then there is most of the rest of the time.
I’m a little late to the game here, and I hope I’m not repeating anyone else, but I’m wondering if you’ve considered adding Triano to the Roll Call?
I know you’ve probably had that question before altraps and sorry if I’m asking you to repeat yourself, but it seems like his decision making is up for debate in the Roll Call..no?
Regardless, keep up the good work and I applaud your class for handling the less than worthy comments.
Also, I was pleased to see improvement from Bosh wrt his leadership. Just the fact that he’s making ANY effort is an improvement that gives me hope.
Tough to say. Where do you stop? Colangelo is accountable for the players, Jay is accountable for their playing time.
Did substitution patterns cause our loss last night? Calling of timeouts? Play calling? These are the gist of the main variables in coaching a game and you would probably get different answers from different people on all 3 of those points in last nights game.
If you are a believer in the “he can only use what he is given”, does he get a pass for last night due to the injuries? Shouldn’t Colangelo be given bad marks for assembling a team lacking in depth?
I think every odd game you can look at the moves of the coach and say they impacted the game, but not frequently.
Last night there wasn’t a lot of options for JT to go to.
BUT, JT has made some real strange moves/ lack of moves over the season. And I believe he has cost the Raps at least a couple of games.
To be fair, a lot of people aren’t applying hindsight to the Turk signing. I hated it at the time, and so did a lot of other people. Even if he plays as well as last season, I don’t want that contract for 5 years and I don’t like the fit with this team. I felt better when BC was able to keep the MLE and get a few pieces he wouldn’t have otherwise gotten, but I never thought that was a good signing. Not saying I could have done better, but I’m not a GM.
terrible game i know were missing bargnani and calderon but come on, i almost threw up in my mouth seeing ukic score 17 pts thats beyond pathetic
Your photo of Bargs is by far the funniest thing you have ever said.
We lose because we don’t have 5 starters.
the hole at 2 is huge. funny things is we have 3 players that can start at 1 (Beli,calderon,JJ in my book) but no one that can log 35 solid minute at 2.
a good coach may hide this problem with good execution and discipline. Triano now is not a good coach. Is he learning at least?