The Raptors’ franchise (and max contract) player
By: Tom Liston
Free agency 2010 talk drives me crazy. I believe Chris Bosh hasn’t made up his mind. How can he? He doesn’t know how this team will finish. Nor does he know what teams will have cap room and what their plans are. However, more frustrating are the comments I’ve read recently about him not being worth a maximum contract. Frankly, I was shocked, but it was worth “refreshing” my own thoughts on the topic so I did a bit more research and concluded that:
Chris Bosh is absolutely a max-contract/franchise player.
There are approximately 30 players in and around that “max” contract type number (http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm). Some of these players have been quite overpaid in hindsight (e.g. Jermaine O’Neal) and others are due for large raises. And not every team will be able to afford to pay a maximum contact. So, let’s say that there are a solid 20 players that can be considered franchise/max players. In that context, let’s see where Mr. Bosh is currently for the 2009-10 season:
Sources: NBA.com and Basketball-reference.com / For win shares calculation / PER rankings
Mr. Bosh is top 10 in every major “overall” efficiency ranking. While PER, NBA Efficiency, Win Shares and Adjusted +/- all have drawbacks (there simply isn’t a “holy grail” of overall efficiency), the data is telling.
Besides the obvious positives from the scoring and overall rebounding numbers Bosh puts up, there are a two metrics that jump out to me: free throws attempted and offensive rebounds. These are two metrics which have an understated impact on winning games. Bosh being number 1 in free throw attempts is huge. It largely means he’s getting a key opposing big in foul trouble (and scoring points at the same time). This usually leads to easier attempts by his teammates as it often “opens” up the lane due to the lack of presence of the opponent’s key big. Offensive rebounds is another statistic that may not be fully appreciated. Not only did you “save” a possession, but you likely were able to put up a highly efficient shot. Ranking 5th (per game) in the league is impressive.
So you ask, who shows up on the top of Win Shares, PER, and Adjusted +/- rankings?
Well, maybe you didn’t, but it’s: LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard and Steve Nash… oh and some guy named Christopher Wesson Bosh. And only four of them (yes, Mr. Bosh included) were on top of all three categories) It’s difficult to say if Mr. Bosh continues on this pace (see Blake Murphy’s great post for the data from last year), but there is little doubt in my mind he’s one of the premier players in the game today and certainly a maximum contract or “franchise” player.
“But he hasn’t taken his team to the promised land” one may argue. I’ll counter that view by saying you need another star (or “near-star”) and key role players to do this. Shaq had Kobe, Kobe had Shaq, Bird had McHale/Parrish/DJ, Magic had Kareem, Jordan had Pippen, Duncan had Ginobilli/Parker, etc. Bosh has yet to receive this quality support.
“But his defense isn’t up to par”. Two things: i) his Adjusted +/- partly accounts for this and his number is great ii) you tend to have play help D much more often when your 4 teammates are generally very poor defenders. This can exaggerate (negatively) your own performance.
Statistics sometimes “lie”. But watching many of the games this year, you see Bosh dig deep to pull games out. He is not a “create-my-own-shot-with-5-seconds” left type of player. No centre or power forward is. But he helps his team win games – throughout the game – and does it extremely well.
Chris Bosh is a special player. A franchise player. A maximum contract player. And a player that I want in a Raptors uniform for a long time.
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222 Raps
Agree with everything. Great stuff.
Bosh is a good player but not a warrior. Doesn’t have the brass balls and killer instinct needed to be a winner. Giving him max will be a poison to this team unless we can secure killer instinct type players (Turk is on the right track but does not make a big enough imprint). Point is Bosh is the PIPPEN not the JORDAN (metaphorically speaking of course). Raps will never contend with Bosh as our pilot.
Too often he takes bad shots that kill our momentum.
Too often he gets pushed around.
Too often he is silent when the team needs leading and direction.
Ask yourself this: how many times has Bosh willed our team to a win? Only time I can remember is two games ago in Washington……
Just because he is the most skilled player on a lousy team does not justify a max money deal.
WTF! What else do you want??? Top 10 ranking in almost every category and you still want more. If Bosh is Pippen who do you suggest BC gets as Jordan?
Pip also had great stats, esp in the two years Jordan wasn’t there. Doesn’t mean he had what it took to lead his team to the finals, even with the same supporting cast.
And Pippen was way more a winner than Bosh is.
Top 10 in every category maybe (so far, this year), but where is he in fourth quarters all of his career? How is it that with this marquee player, we are a perpetual sub-mediocre team… a joke of a team? How is it that even with 20 point leads, I never feel it’s locked (and we usually do lose it), but with 20 point deficits, I feel there is no hope to climb back (and we usually don’t)? Every Raptor fan feels it because it’s been happening for most of 15 years.
Team leader is primarily responsible for our defeatist culture. BOSH IS NOT WORTH THE MAX!!!!!
Wow, so much nonsense, so little time.
Consider first that Pippen was freaking AWESOME. He’s one of the top 50 all-time players, and he proved he wasn’t being carried by Jordan by putting up All-Star stats even when Jordan wasn’t around. Also keep in mind that the Bulls with Jordan – and without Pippen – didn’t win jack.
So even if Bosh is ‘just Pippen’, it still means he is a Max Player.
Second, Liston is correct in pointing out that the supporting cast is to blame for the Raptors not having a better record. Exhibit ‘A’ is Kevin Garnett in Minnesota. When an All-Time-Great like Garnett can’t carry a team on his own, why would we expect Bosh to? Or perhaps you don’t think Garnett is a max-contract player?
Bosh is definitely a max-contract player, and what the Raps need to succeed is to find a complimentary all-star (preferably a wing) to take us to the next level.
“Every Raptor fan feels it because it’s been happening for most of 15 years.”
And hence why your argument is flawed. Bosh has only been on the team for six years, and most of the time has had below average talent around him. And your comment about Bosh disappearing in the fourth is patently false, and there are tons of stats that refute that.
You need to watch other teams play (not against the Raptors). So do most other Raptor fans, and then they will realize that these other players are not nearly as perfect as they make them out to be.
Just cross your fingers for Bosh to stay, or the Raptors you see today, would be one of the worst teams in the NBA for a long time. Turk for $10 M for another 4 years? Calderon for $10 M for another 3 years? Jack for $5 M for another 3 years, and Bargs for $10 M for another 6…. We have a good veteran core right now, if Bosh goes… we can’t just rebuild… we will be like the New york knicks… Our problem is not Bosh bro…
I honestly think, the Bosh, Bargs combo needs to be blown up. As much as I am a Bargs fan, he needs to get traded, because Bosh and Bargs have no chemistry. We need a hustler C, not a 3 point shooting C. They are just too many people on the starting line-up who are not playing D…
True true. Bosh would be at his best with a real banger C. I think Bargs would be great coming off the bench, but at $10 mil a year, I don’t see that happening. Plus he doesn’t seem to have his head in the game if he doesn’t start. And Bosh doesn’t play well in the 4th? You expect a PF to create when the D just throws everyone at him because they know nobody else will step up? I do agree he needs someone else to win, but I wouldn’t go as far as calling him Pippen.
So the point was to see if Bosh is a top 20 player? I hope you didn’t need a flash light and a map! Their is a big difference between a “franchise player”, a “max player” and a “star”. Bosh is clearly a top 20 player and maybe even top 10. Since there are 30 teams you can easily see he is a franchise player. That same thinking makes him a max player. However, any smart organization looks closer and realizes that not every franchise or max player can make you a contender. Take Joe Johnson or Danny Granger for example. They both are worth max money by your definition but are they going to be the center peice of a championship team? I doubt it. LeBron, Wade, Howard, CP3, Kobe, Dirk and maybe KG are players who can make you a champion. If Bosh can’t keep a team with 3 other players making roughly 10 million a year is he the guy that can make you win in the playoffs?
To say that he is a top 15 player so he is good enough to be the best player on his team and therefore a franchise player is great if you want to be the 14th best team in the league for the next 6 years. I want to see this team truly excel before we give him the max. If they don’t what are we buying? a trip to the 1st round every year. Great! Without Andre Igoudala the 76ers would be a joke. With them they aren’t much better. IS he worth $15,000,000? If he’s your best player I would say NO.
“If Bosh can’t keep a team with 3 other players making roughly 10 million a year is he the guy that can make you win in the playoffs?”
Could it be that these players may not be worth $10M each (at least to date)? Or perhaps not the right combination of players surrounding Bosh?
PREACH ON, BROTHER!!!
I believe regardless of how Bosh plays, he will get his max contract. He is still young (only 1 year older than Lebron) and can still get better.
This is a really good point, which lends itself to the notion that Bosh’s great play this season was only for the big contract. We all know this is crap, he will get max money regardless of what he does this season.
Colangelo, do whatever you need to do to sign this guy! He is valuable, with our defence the last 2 games, we will win a lot more games, a top 6 defense, and I think are as good as the Lakers.
Good article!
Really? Top six? We held the Wiz to 105 and the Bulls (terrible offence) to 78 in a game the Bulls didn’t even show up for. The defence is better but top 6? They might be top 20…maybe…lets see how they do against the Hawks on the 11th.
With a top 6 defense in the future, obviously not now!
Completely agree!!!
here here Liston. We have seen Chris get better each year. I can understand dissatisfaction and wanting more, but I cringe when I see the full hate on. Chris does not deserve the hate. Sometimes you just don’t know what you have until you lose it.
And lets not forget IF Bosh is gone, the offense will most likely go through Bargnani. He is playing nowhere near the level that is expected of him. Losing Bosh a 20/10 guy who leads the league in points in the paint and offense reb and trading his production for Bargnani, a one dimensional player right now, will be a huge blow to the Raptors organization and fans for a long time to come.
I doubt you’d see the O run through Bargs.
What would likely happen is the O would run through Turk and the O would be spread around through everyone on the floor.
hence much more shot opportunities for Wright, Jack, Nesterovic, Derozan etc…
Is that a good thing?
exactly….
I not sure who hates Bosh. Best player the Raps have had since Vince.
He just has some flaws to his game and it looks like MLSE is about to pay him $22 million per season for 6 years!
I thought the max a free agent can get from his own team is 30% of the salary cap? They’re projecting the cap should go down to the low 50 millions, so he won’t start at 22 million (maybe by the end of the contract he will). I could be wrong though.
I think he’s averaging it out. His first year will be around $16.5 mil, a 5% raise over this year’s $15.8 mil. Oh, and BTW, I’m pretty sure there was an error with the earlier RR post on how much Bosh can earn next year.
The starting salary of a max contract is a certain % of the BRI (not the salary cap), but when that figure is lower than the player’s most recent salary, he’s entitled to a 5% increase as the starting point.
The only way for Bosh to receive more than a 5% increase is if he signs an extension before he becomes a free agent. Extensions have another limitation however:
“The salary in the first year of the extension is limited to 110.5% of the salary in the last year of the existing contract. However, it also can’t exceed the maximum salary the player can receive if he were to sign a new contract that year as a free agent [...]”
Thus, he should still only be allowed the 5% increase as that is the maximum he would receive as a free agent. Thus, his starting salary is $16.5 mil no matter what and not the larger $17.x mil number quoted on this site.
Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it.
I too think Bosh is great but not great enough to take that much salary cap from this team unless all that want him signed are fione with a 40 to 45 win team every year that gets knocked out in the first or possibly second round. The team would be better served trading Bosh and using the money for two or three very good players and spreading the offence around. I believe they would actually produce more wins and deeper playoff runs with a group of very good players versus a team built around one star who cannot deliver paydirt when it’s time. Also if big men cannot dominate a game at the end and take a team on their shoulders to do so then why pay any big man max. Do everything you can to get or develop wings that can and spend the bulk of your money there.
I 100% agree with your comment. To many dreamers think that Bosh will be the next great one, he is only playing this good because it means a truck load of money will be coming his way. He WILL be gone next year…trade him and get some good players in return. I believe that Bosh will eventually be the next Vernon Wells in Toronto… overpaid because of one good year!
Sorry but I think a championship should be the target of this team and that requires two or three star players and a competent set of supporting players (and a bit of luck). Going the other route of using a collection of B list players is much harder to do because there’s really only one example in the history of the NBA: the Pistons.
Bosh is a max player because he is going to get max money. He is one star on this team and we’ll need one or two more. Trading him away means that we’ll be down to none and have to start all over again.
So, I try to keep Bosh unless he indicates that he’s going away. Bosh is still a young player so there’s still time to collect the other pieces.
Ever notice how you don’t hear this phrase: “Dwayne wade considering coming to Toronto to play with Chris Bosh”? It’s always the other way around…and it’s that way because players, coaches, media, fans, everybody knows that CB is a second banana (deserving of second banana dollars) and TO is a second tier city.
Stats lie…they don’t show the deceit in Chris’ eye as he’s collapsed on inside and instead of dishing to an open (and hot) Bargnani, goes into into “F it, I’m going to get my stats” mode.
While Chris puts up Max Player stats, his team is suffering…he’s the AI of big men.
Lebron, Michael, Magic, Larry etc…the greats, the true max dollar guys make their teamates better. Chris doesn’t.
Mo Williams is not an allstar – but Lebron made him one
Pippen was not an allstar – but Michael made him one
Sorry Tom – Great article…Super well written…I just think the stats are deceiving…we’ve all played with that guy at the Y who is the best guy in the gym and played better as a team when he left for the day.
That’s a great point. I believe (rightly or wrongly) that Bosh is not that guy. Those guys are generally the ball hogs – forcing up shots when teammates are clearly open. They *usually* aren’t the guys banging for offensive boards and getting hammered on many drives. The latter are the warriors – and they’re consistent. And guys I want to go to war with. Those are the guys I love to feed the ball. Because they’re going to A) get me an assist or B) get fouled, get 1.6 pts and sit down their big early C) get their own board and get their two or foul etc.
The guys I don’t like are the “superheroes”. Shoot only 39% all night, turnover prone as they’re trying to force the issue, and – largely because their lack of efficiency are down by two with 4.5 seconds left. And yes, they “win” the game with a buzzer beater to instill their superhero status – when they could have had the team buried 5 minutes earlier if they did their job properly.
Agent Zero. 39.8% FG shooter. 3.5 turnovers a game. 1 for 5 in the fourth in a very tight game last night. 12 turnovers in ONE game a bit back. But no one will remember. Three games from now, he’ll hit one big shot, it will be replayed 50 times on EPSN and 500,000 on YouTube and hero status will be confirmed.
Arenas is (generally) “that guy” in this category (max contract types).
Agree completely with Liston here – the “Iverson” types are usually low-efficiency volume scorers…this is why the first peripheral basketball statistics were shocking, because they revealed the inefficiencies of “good” players…Bosh, however, scores well on just about every metric.
Exactly what I was thinking a few games back, I don’t know why Arenas is so big, he shoots 39% from the field.
Very well said!
I’ll look it up by one of the major sites had Bargs as having the highest shot attempts per assist ratio in the league. Both could pass a bit more, but Bosh has 50% higher APG ratio as Bargs. Maybe Bargs doesn’t pass it enough to the “hot hand”.
Getting offensive rebounds does not make your team suffer. Drawing fouls and sitting their big on the bench early does not make your team suffer.
These stat-padding activities win basketball games. I like winning.
You mentioned Dwyane Wade – a player I really like. But who’s filling the stats more? A 43% FG shooter (24% from 3pt!!) with 3.2 turnovers per game – or Chris Bosh?
Wade is 6th in the league in PPG. 96th in the league in FG%
He is still an all-star. But if you want to argue who’s “going to get (their) stats”…
Ouch…
And don’t you prove the point that stats lie right there by comparing the two? Who would you rather build a team around right now?
What are his defensive statistics compared to Bosh? How does a 6’4 guard average more blocks than a 6’11 forward? Steals? Assists? Points?
All the stats used to prove Bosh is a “Max Money” player are offensive based. Where does he fit in defensively? What about the intangibles… ealry discussion today already stated he ISN’T the leader of this team and won’t be a leader.
There is a big difference between Bosh IS a max money player and Bosh is WORTH max money.
Bosh is getting his cash do not doubt…. now you have to consider is he worth that?
Adjusted +/- certainly accounts for defense (see basketballvalue.com).
It does a reasonable job of removing the mainand obvious issues with “basic” +/-.
Bosh is 9th in the entire league over the last couple years. When he’s on the floor he help produce many more points than the opponent’s during that time – adjusted for the quality of the players he’s playing with and the quality of the other team.
So far this year, Washington are a MUCH better team defensively with Areas OFF the court. http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=WAS Or have a look at the Roland Rating: http://www.82games.com/0910/09WAS2.HTM // Even Calderon blew by Arenas several times in the most recent 2 games.
Meanwhile Toronto is a much better defensive team with Bosh on the court – this year only Amir Johnson is better.
His team is 14.2 points better defensively per 100 possessions when he’s OFF the floor.
You can also remove blocks from the analysis. But how about turnovers? Arenas had 12 in one game alone. Avg 3.5 a game. The opponent’s score often off these.
Arenas does beat Bosh in assists though.
Hope that adds a bit of colour.
but why are we suddenly comparing to Arenas? I thought the discussion was with Wade?
Not that it really matters actually… I just wanted to show that Stats can be deceptive depending on how they are used, and what they are compared to. They also don’t show intangibles that can’t be recorded.
Saying that Bosh should get Max money because of X and Y statistically does not show the entire picture.
Sorry! Was completely lost in the thread.
And I 100% agree with “I just wanted to show that Stats can be deceptive depending on how they are used, and what they are compared to.”
I *tried* to use a wide range to mitigate that issue. But you are correct that it definitely does not show the entire picture – intangibles have to be added (or subtracted) and certainly they’ll be many valid arguments on each side.
Error above – “His team is 14.2 points better defensively per 100 possessions when he’s OFF the floor.” applies to ARENAS, not Bosh.
.
["Maybe Bargs doesn’t pass it enough to the “hot hand”."]
In the Chicago game, Belinelli passed it to Bosh at the post – 2 points.
In the same game, Bargs passed in to Amir at the post – he lost the handle – 0 points.
.
So bargs is actually a volume passer that is simply SOOOO unlucky that he’s LAST in the league in assists per shot attempt? sure….
So getting points in the paint and getting to the free throw line is a bad thing now? Those are higher percentage shots that kicking it out for a jumper.
Stats do lie, but what about Garnett who is getting paid MAX for the last 8 years? He is considered the MVP of the Celtics, heart and soul of the defense, the reason why the Celtics failed in the playoffs last year. BUT when he was with the timberwolves, he only got out of the first round ONCE, and that was with Sprewell, Cassel, and Szerbiak when he was an all-star.
Its not just Bosh has to make their teams better, the team has to be better overall and does not hinge on one players performance.
Garnett and Bosh’s career is very similar and Garnett has 5 extra years of experience than Bosh right now. Bosh will continue to improve as a player.
No matter how good Micheal, Magic, and Larry are, they needed help to win the Championship whether is Pippen or Mchale and Parish. Plus Lebron has yet to win a Championship.
Lebron did not make Mo Williams an all-star, David Stern did. He was neither voted in by the fans or selected by the coaches.
“Lebron did not make Mo Williams an all-star, David Stern did. He was neither voted in by the fans or selected by the coaches.”
LMFAO
take that Jameer Nelson!
Finally somebody get it. Chris is the best player the raptors have! Its not up to Bosh to make his teamates better, they are pro players is it Bosh’s fault that nobody else can’t get their game off. Here you have probably the best front court player this franchise will ever have and all anyone can do is critize what he doesnt do. Give me one other power forward in this leauge you would rather have. Switch Garnett and Bosh or Nowitski and Bosh and tell me what Bosh’s stat line and team win total’s would be.
I can give you more but since you only ask for one Pau Gasol.
He is head and shoulders better than Bosh in almost every area.
way better under the basket, way smarter and better court vision, best passing big man in basketball ( almost 4 assists per game), makes his team way better, and his teammates way better. Way better than Bosh defensively and more blocks per game, and better from the line as well.
Higher shooting percentage, and 90% free throw shooter versus Bosh 75%.
Lower turn overs than Bosh,
All around Bosh is no where near as good as Gasol.
Just for fun Duncan and Nowitski are far superior as well.
This is where we need to be careful about using statistical analysis.
You claim Gasol is a “90% free throw shooter versus Bosh 75%.” You may be basing this on the 8 games Gasol has played this year and his 40 FT attempts (compared to Bosh’s 223 this year).
**Pau Gasol is a career 74.0% FT shooter vs Bosh at 79.3% FT
You also use an incredibly small sample size for turnovers:
**Pau Gasol’s career Turnovers per game is 2.4 per game vs Bosh at 2.2 (better)
You are correct re: passing.
But “He is head and shoulders better than Bosh in almost every area”. You need to back this up with proper data. Not 8 games worth when both players have played > 450 games in their careers.
Pau Gasol is a very good player. And he’ll be paid $17.8 million next year.
Worth mentioning that Bosh is also a MUCH quicker and more agile player who could beat Pau up and down the court by about a half length….
Isnt it interesting how Pau Gasol went from Al Jefferson-like status in Memphis to being as good or better than any PF in the game? hmmmmm….. remember how many playoff games the lakers won lately DESPITE his brutal performances?
I apologize if some of the stats I used are not the same as what you’re looking at…I guess it’s why stats alone are not good enough, and my marketing experience also shows that stats and data can be manipulated to tell and support a story. All that said for what it’s worth I think Bosh is a great player but no where near as valuable as Gasol. Do you think the Lakers would trade Gasol for Bosh straight up? Not a chance.
It’s like Crosby versus Ovechkin. Ovechkin is a great player, flashy, great stats, exciting and fun to watch a real showman and star. Crosby is the ultimate team player. He’s a terrific hockey player with great stats but not the greatest stats, fun to watch, a real star but mostly because he’s so good he makes everyone on his team way way better. He has great vision and is the ultimate team leader and by the way leads his team to victory. Guess which one Bosh is. Guess which one someone like Nash is.
By the way I’m not saying Gasol is a Nash or a Crosby but he is as compared to Bosh.
Would the Lakers trade Gasol for Bosh straight up? Probably not, but don’t mistake that for anyone believing that Gasol is better than Bosh. The Lakers shouldn’t make that trade because a) they already have a lot of chemistry with Gasol, his skill-set fits in more with the triangle offense, they have the best record in the league already, so why screw with any of that for a player who, while possibly better, is going to have to adjust to Jackson’s system, which can be difficult to learn and fit in, and may not fit in as well with the Lakers as Gasol did.
And it’s absolutely amazing how Gasol suddenly became such a great player as soon as he was traded to the Lakers. There must be something in the water in Los Angeles.
So, what you’re saying is that Bosh is not on the same level as Jordan (possibly the best ever), LeBron (reigning MVP and probably will end up being one of the top ten players ever), Dwayne Wade (Finals MVP and probably one of the top 3 players in the league). It’s difficult to understand your point. Are you saying that only 4 or 5 players should get max contracts? You think that’s ever going to happen?
People always point to the fact that Bosh is really a second banana, and should be paid like one. If he can’t carry a team, then don’t give him the max, or else he’ll cripple the franchise.
Sort of like how Paul Pierce’s max contract crippled that franchise as he was getting paid nearly $20 million while the team was in the lottery?
Or like Pau Gasol’s max contract has crippled the Lakers?
Or Rashard Lewis despite ?
Bosh is not LeBron. No one is denying that, but no one seems to have noticed that there is actually only one LeBron James. And there are really only 3 guys in the league who fit the description some Raptor fans give to a franchise player. I mean, if Chris Paul is so good, how come the Hornets were only 4-7 when he was in the lineup? He must not be a franchise player. Hell, Steve Nash couldn’t even get to the playoffs with Shaq on his team. OVERRATED!
There are a few reasons you don’t hear that Wade wants to play in Toronto with Bosh. One is that Wade is a better player. Two is that the Raptors aren’t signing Wade, even if they wanted to, so the argument is moot, The third is that every American media reporter assumes that Bosh is leaving Canada to go to the US, because, well, why would you ever want to stay in Canada?
free health care.
well-informed fan base.
Have you read these comments?!?!? lol
Yup. Could not say it better. I wonder how Detroit felt when they had neither Kobe, nor LBJ, nor Wade, nor MJ. Must… rebuild… every… year… until… we… duplicate… a… hall… of… famer!
Sorry, but if you look at AI’s WP numbers, it shows that he’s detrimental to the team (WP shows AI, despite his great numbers, is at best a slightly above average player). For Bosh to be the AI of big men, he’d also need a similar statistic, which he does not have.
And uh, I don’t know where you’re from, but I hope it’s not Toronto. If you are from Toronto, I feel bad for you and your inferiority complex. Toronto has always been a world-class city and doesn’t need to prove it to anyone.
Doesn’t the AI of big men scream Z-bo? I cant think of any other candidates…
Pippen is 1 of the greatest defensive wings of all time and is absolutely an all-star as well as a top 50 player. Please don’t compare him to a scrub like Mo Williams.
Ya, I missed that in my response. You kind of lose credibility when you say that Pippen isn’t an All-Star without Jordan. Also, I didn’t realize that Jordan played with Pippen in 93 and 94 when he made the All-Star team. I thought Jordan was playing baseball in the minor leagues. Shows how much I know about basketball.
What a load of crap, Pippen is a All Star even without Jordan & Mo wasn’t half bad before Cleveland but didn’t get the exposure with the Bucks.
Jordan couldn’t do it without Pippen, Wade couldn’t do it without Shaq, Kobe could’t do it without Pau or Shaq, Lebron and Carmello HAVEN’T even done it yet etc etc etc.
Bosh is a max player, Hopefully Derozen can keep up the development and be that side kick he needs. Unless Bargs decides to take off his skirt.
There are plenty of bad ASG selections made every year and sure, Mo was one of them, but you’re being beyond silly in claiming that Pippen was some kind of tag-along role player.
Scottie Pippen was legitimately one of the top 50 to play the game. Bulls were a 50+ win team without MJ (while he was off showing us that he couldn’t play baseball). Without Pippen, MJ wouldn’t have won six rings. For all his greatness, that was a heck of a team on the court with him.
Anyway, Bosh is really, really good. I don’t follow the Raptors, but I got to see him playing in the Olympics and he was pretty freaking great out there. The 2-year +/- stat seems particularly useful if you’re wondering what life would be like without him. Good article. Peace.
Careful Tom, you’re going to get the ‘stat padder, he’s soft, he’ll eat up 20% of the payroll, Barg’s is a better man defender(?)’ bloggers all riled up! lol
Great insight and hopefully will kill some of the negative jibberish posted about CB.
Then again……
Shows good evidence. I still can’t believe people don’t believe this.
Here we go!
Matt Nelson
Stats lie…they don’t show the deceit in Chris’ eye as he’s collapsed on inside and instead of dishing to an open (and hot) Bargnani, goes into into “F it, I’m going to get my stats” mode.
While Chris puts up Max Player stats, his team is suffering…he’s the AI of big men.
Lebron, Michael, Magic, Larry etc…the greats, the true max dollar guys make their teamates better. Chris doesn’t.
Mo Williams is not an allstar – but Lebron made him one
Pippen was not an allstar – but Michael made him one
You are a better man than most to notice deceit in a players eyes! lol
And to shun Barg’s is truly an offence! Was this on Friday when Barg’s was going 5-19?
The worst thing you could have ever said however, is Scottie Pippen was not an all-star. One of the top 50 players of all time is a pretty exclusive list don’t you think?
You should probably move away slowly from your keyboard, cause it’s making you look foolish.
I’m glad you pointed that out. Pippen not an all-star????? Didn’t the guy lead the Bulls to a 55-win season without MJ, and won an all-star game MVP? Not an all-star? Come on…
dudes also on the 50 greatest players of all time list
Seeing what Pippen and Jordan accomplished really makes me think what T-Mac and Carter could have done in this league. Not that either of these players were at that particular level, but man it would have been sweet to see nonetheless.
Imagine an era including Carter, T-Mac, Camby/Oakley and an up and coming CB4. Could have had something real special. Instead T-Mac hasn’t been able to win a playoff series with Houston.
Well the problem is you dont keep getting Top 7 lottery picks for winning… haha
Bosh probably hasn’t made up his mind!
But that’s not going to be much comfort if he goes to Colangelo and says I want you to S&T me to Miami this summer and Miami (or anywhere else with cap room) says we’ll S&T a $17m trade exception or Haslem back, take or leave it.
Huge risk is that Colangelo can’t control things after the trade deadline.
All he’ll be able to do is say no and Bosh would have to take less guaranteed money to move – not much comfort to Raptors fans.
So why should the Raptors want to wait to find out if Bosh feels like staying?
If Bosh wants to be “fair”, he’ll sign an extension now for max money and then ask for a trade if he doesn’t want to stay. That way the Raps will be able to shop him in the off season for value. But then Bosh wouldn’t be in control.
Well in the worse case scenario that Bosh does leave, we should sign Breadon Haywood from the Wizards to say a 9 million for the next 4 -5 years so we can have a legit center who can play defense. Bargnani will be at his natural position at the 4 and we can re-up amir johnson and still have some cap to sign a decent FA, depending on our needs.
Well said.
Not to drudge it up again, but Otis Smith made the Hedo trade (and it was a trade) a reality. He didn’t have to. If he hadn’t, you’d have to be concerned of what this team would look like right now. Point is, it is possible to make something out of what appears to be a dark day. GMs, Players, Agents, they all know that screwing someone over could cost them down the road. If it takes Colangelo saying no to a S&T, so be it, but I still can’t see the scenario being as doomsday as some might say.
9 million for Brandon Haywood?! Wow…can you be my agent?!
GM overpay for for centers all the time. Haywood makes 6 mil this year. He plays defense, rebs, and can score if he set him up. Its 2010 where a lot of teams have cap space and everyone needs a center so they will shell out a lot of cash. 9 mil IMO is a low offer already.
Good thing it’s “IMO”.
Sorry, is this the same Brendan Haywood who has struggled with consistency and effort throughout his entire career? This is a guy you want playing on a front line with Bargnani and Turkoglu.
Obviously you have to judge him by what he can do right now. Because he struggled to play with consistency and effort before shows that he has improved as a player because he is rebounding and playing defense. How else can you judge a guy’s performance? Its his defense and rebounding that will help this team. Barngnani and Turk and take all the shots that they want.
I do not believe he can sign for max money now – only an extension and I think it limits his years (I’d have to confirm).
good thing defense aren’t in stats
I think one major (valid) point often argued against Bosh-as-a-max-player is the fact that, despite gaudy numbers, Bosh is still a tweener in the NBA.
Look at that WS list of 21 players and check the ones who:
a) cannot create their own shot on offense
b) are not a dominant defensive presence
I think that list looks like this:
Bosh, Nene, Horford, Boozer, Garnett, Gasol, Camby
Notice a pattern?
It’s not that Bosh isn’t an incredible player. It’s simply that — as a matter of his position and style of play — shouldn’t a team be hesitant to build around an individual whom (if history is any indication) will struggle to lead a team to an NBA championship?
Outside of the Pistons, what champion has failed to have either an elite shot maker either, at either the wing or post positions? Often, championship teams have both.
The ability to throw the ball into a big or just clear out for a guard may not seem like sound basketball, but often this is what determines scoring in the NBA playoffs.
Players such as Bosh may be incredible contributors, but will never be able to provide the sort of down-the-stretch plays that traditionally have won championships.
In my mind, this is why a team should (and will) think twice before giving Bosh a max contract UNLESS they can afford an elite ball-handler or post player to team with him.
Unlike a centre of guard, Bosh, by virtue of his make-up, not his talent, is incapable of carrying a team single handedly.
Just like Kevin Garnett
I logged in under Simon and re-worded my first attempt :)
Well put Simon…
Picture the a world where Bosh is making 22 million/year? $55 million locked up in Bosh, Bargs, Turk, Jose and Banks.
Two games ago, everyone is looking for change…two wins against bad teams doesn’t change that reality.
This team needs assets to get off the treadmill mediocrity (no playoffs, no high picks). To move those assets, they need liquidity…bosh is the only asset we have that will yield a nice return.
Lock bosh in at 22 million a year and 3 years from now, we’re all still on here whining about how we need to blow things up but no one will take Bosh’s inflated deal.
Trading Bosh is our ticket out of mediocrity and a way to erase some BC’s mistakes.
Trading Bosh, far and away the team’s best player, will destroy this team for the next few years.
Bargnani is a great asset and could surely yield a good player in return, especially one which could fit this team a hell of lot better than he does.
Colangelo would rather die than trade il mago
And such is the real problem with this franchise.
Trading Bosh is our ticket to more success but it needs to happen now not at the end of the season.
How would we replace Bosh’s production?
Bargnani will need to step up scoring and rebounding, Turk needs to improve his scoring, Calderon needs to drive more, and more plays should be called for DeRozan. Scouting reports says that DeRozan has a great mid-range game, but we have yet to see that in action. With the available cap space, we should sign a big man or sign-and-trade bosh for something.
I am a Truck says: “Bargnani will need to step up scoring and rebounding.”
Hasn’t that been Bargnani’s problem all season? It’s all well and good to say that if Bosh leaves, the Raptors can easily make up for it if several Raptors step up, but it begs the question, why haven’t they done it? Why hasn’t Bargnani become the player so many expect of him. And please don’t say he’ll step up when Bosh leaves. Having Bosh inside make it SOOO much easier for him to score, not harder.
If Bosh leaves, it will hurt the Raptors and there is absolutely no silver lining. They cannot make up the scoring or rebounding, not with the barely more than the MLE the Raptors will have available if Bosh leaves. It will not make the team better without Bosh on it, unless he’s replaced by a better player, of which there are only a handful, and none of which the Raptors are getting.
You people who are talking about how the team will improve once Bosh leaves are either deluding yourself, or know very little about the NBA.
I think Tim W. knows very little about the NBA since players leaving their teams will be an inevitability, whether by trade, FA, or retirement. Regardless if you want those players to leave or not, because once they are gone, their production will be made up by other players or a combination of players.
I Am A Truck,
Apparently you need a little refresher course. Teams do, eventually, make up the production, but it usually takes time, and in the mean time, the team suffers. Hell, look at the Bulls this year. They lost Ben Gordon (who’s not even an All-Star), and have not been able to make up his production. When Yao and McGrady went down, Houston didn’t replace their production, they became a gritty, defensive oriented team. You think that’s going to happen with the Raptors? And they’re still not on the same pace as last season.
You want the Raptors to lose a few more years while they find players to replace Bosh? Good strategy.
Face reality Tim W. You don’t always get want you want, so stop whining. If Bosh leaves via S&T, we can get maybe draft picks, although its not always 1st round, like the Rashard Lewis S&T where Seattle got only a 2nd pick. If Bosh leaves via FA, we still get a lot of cap space to sign player(s).
I want educated Raptor fans who don’t say ridiculous things. You’re right, I probably won’t get what I want.
Depends who we trade him for. We get a very good defencive big and other teams will score less meaning Bargs, turk and the gang might be able to carry the load. It really depends on the trade situation though.
No matter who the Raptors get in return for Bosh, you can’t ever be a good defensive team when two-thirds of your front line is below average defensively, and you’ll never be a good rebounding team when two-thirds of your front line are below average rebounders.
Who’s your franchise player Andrea. How about laying off the hate on Bosh. Andrea will never be the man because he needs somone else to make him better, give it up. Facts and statistics don’t lie opinion’s do.
“statistics don’t lie”
really? Take any stats courses lately?
Lol, yes first lesson for prof: Stats are used to lie.
Actually I have. lol
Stats are used to spin a story all the time. Hopefully you felt the post was balanced and avoided selected statistics (hence why I spent so much time incorporating several different effieciency metrics). I provided all the sources and am happy to send you the spreadsheets (tomliston@hotmail.com).
not knocking your stats Liston…. just the comment above
See my comment about trading your best player. Not sure how trading, far and away, your best player is the ticket to more success. That makes absolutely no sense.
It does if your best player cannot carry a team but carries the majority of the payroll. % really good players playing together is still better than one star and four guys. Look at all the real teams in the league and they have balance. We will be no worse for sure.
Besides Detroit in 04, who has won the championship with no ‘star’ player taking up the majority of the payroll in the last 30 years?
None.
Like Chris Paul, who apparently can’t carry a team?
Or Kobe Bryant, who, despite having Caron Butler and Lamar Odom on the team, still couldn’t only manage to carry his team to 34 wins in 2005.
Or Dwayne Wade, whose team won a league low 15 games in 2007 (and only 44 the previous season). Yes, he only played 51 games, but he still managed to score 27 ppg so you’d think he would have been healthy enough to be able to carry his team to more than 15 wins in 51.
Or Steve Nash, who, despite having Shaquille O’Neal on the team (as well as Amare Stoudamire for the majority of the season, couldn’t even carry his team to the playoffs last year.
Or Paul Pierce, who could only push his team to 33 and 24 wins in 06 and 07.
It’s amazing how those guys are getting paid what they are if they can’t carry a team. Those franchises must be in big trouble.
And most of the `real’ teams in the league (and in the history of the league), have one or two dominant players and the rest role players. Rarely do teams without a star ever make an impact, and never has a team without an All-Star ever done anything of note.
It’s a known fact that the NBA is a star driven league on and off the court, and anyone who says any different is either lying, or watches way too much college basketball.
Picture a world with a team where the best players on the team are Bargnani, Turkoglu and Calderon. Personally, I’d rather not.
And two games ago, people were looking for change, but one of them wasn’t getting rid of your best player. That’s an awfully strange way of building a team. Well, we’re not where we should be, so let’s get rid of the best player on the team, and keep everyone else. Can you imagine if you ran a business where you fired your best salesman because the business wasn’t doing well? That wouldn’t be very smart, would it?
Not sure how trading Bosh would make the team better. And not sure how trading Bosh would erase the drafting of Bargnani. Wouldn’t be simpler to trade Bargnani?
What if Bosh was traded, say in January, to NYK for Lee, Darko and Gallinari … and the Knicks attempt to use Bosh as bait for LeBron to join?
I would take that trade in a second but I don’t think the knicks will trade Gallinari. If there’s a chance it needs to happen now before Gallinari starts logging heavy minutes and ups his production.
FAQ: “What if Bosh was traded, say in January, to NYK for Lee, Darko and Gallinari”
Pizzaman: “I would take that trade in a second”
And every sane Raptor fan breathes a sigh of relief that neither of you run the franchise. You’d trade Bosh for two below average defenders (and a guy who is probably going back to Europe next year), apparently thinking that what the team needs is not more defense, but less. While you’re at it, why not grab Zach Randolph, trade back for Jason Kapono and call it a day?
Geeze, what on earth would Lee and Gallinari bring to the Raptors that Bosh would not, other than being two people instead of one? I can hear Cleveland now. Instead of paying all that money for LeBron, why not get two or three players who are not as good as him? That would make the team better, wouldn’t it?
Tim – I’ve said this before…BC has given away two draft picks for Turk. (one for JO, one for Matrix and Matrix became Turk).
To use your business example…you’d be out of business pretty quick of you’re always borrowing money to cover current expenses…and that’s what colangalo has done with his dice rolling.
The “move bosh” camps has no illusions about next year (or the next 3 frankly), but we appreciate that to properly rebuild, you need assets and to move those assets, you need liquidity…we have a bunch of immovable contracts on this club…
The “move bosh” camp looks at the Hawks, Blazers and OKC and thinks ” those teams put an end to years of mediocrity by going against the grain and totally blowing the team up for picks and prospects.
The Trade Bosh Camps Point of view can be summed up this way:
A. This team is not a trade or two away from something special.
B. Unfortunately, Colangelo has a roster filled with undesirable contracts
C. If it were a trade or two away, is there a serious situation that could turn Jose, Bargs and Turk into a title winning lineup around bosh with 25 mill locked up in Bosh? It’s a dream.
D. Therefore the only option is to blow the whole thing up.
E. To blow it up you need assets that other teams actually want
F. The only asset that is desirable is Bosh.
G. We don’t have anymore picks to offer (see above)
It’s unfortunate, but it’s reality. Signing Bosh is ignoring reality and condemning this team to mediocrity for indefinitely.
Matt,
Colangelo traded away a low first round pick and one that may even be lower in order to become financially flexible. Then, he was able to sign and trade for Turkoglu and grab Belinelli and Amir. I’d do that. And it’s not as if Colangelo has mortgaged the future of the Raptors. There are 8 players on the team 25 years or younger, so your analogy about borrowing from the future doesn’t work. The future of the team is ON the team.
And if you want to `blow up the team’ shouldn’t the first guys to go be Bargnani and Turkoglu (and maybe Calderon?). You can let the best player go, but the team will still have not one member of the core of the team be above average defensively.
And Atlanta got where they are by overpaying (and giving away too much for) Joe Johnson, bungling several draft picks (drafting Josh Childress instead of Luol Deng or Andre Igoudala, taking Marvin Williams instead of Chris Paul, passing on Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay for Sheldon Williams), giving away others, having ownership that fought and didn’t want to do anything, and then stumbling onto Mike Bibby, who suddenly gave the team some veteran leadership and their first playoff appearance in 8 years.
You want to follow their example?
The Blazers did dump all their bad attitudes and was able to secure a #2 pick, as well as the best player in that same draft, then get the number one pick the very next year. Ya, I’m sure a lot of teams would like to do that.
Oklahoma City did dump all their contracts, become the worst team in the league, and were able to luck out and have it be a year where the second pick happened to be Kevin Durant, instead of, say, this year, which was a one person draft, and the second and third player picked were Thabeet and Harden. Or the season before when the consensus 2nd best player was Michael Beasley.
I think you get my point. Many of the teams that people see as making such great decisions got to where they are by completely lucking out. What if the Raptors had won the draft the year Dwight Howard came out?
I have no idea whether the Raptors are one or two trades away from being special because I have no idea what trades might be available and neither does anyone else. If the Raptors could turn Bargnani into someone like Noah, then YES, I do think this team could be something special, especially with the continued maturation of DeRozan. Do I think that it’s going to happen this year? Absolutely not, but I think a team with Bosh, Turkoglu, DeRozan and Calderon has a lot of talent and might very well be one player away from being a contender.
Would anyone have said the 24 win Boston team (with no cap room and several bad contracts) would be a couple of trades away from winning the Championship? Or the 42 win Lakers team that couldn’t get out of the first round be one trade away from going to the Finals?
Quite frankly, the Raptors have more tradable talent on this current team than either of those teams.
I’ve watched enough years of NBA to know when a situation is bad enough to blow up a team. I was calling for the Raptors to trade Vince a year and a half before they actually did. One thing I do know about this Raptor team is they simply have too much talent on it to blow it up. Is this roster one that will lead them deep into the playoffs? God, no, but they certainly have enough talent on this team to be a trade or two away from it.
I suggest everyone get in a cage and fight…last man standing decides the future of the club.
Seriously Tim, there are a handful of teams at best that need a PG with Calderon’s skills and contract. Have a look at Scott’s Post a couple weeks ago…its impossible to find a deal for him. Can you imaging how the calderon conversation would go down?
Bryan: “Hey, abc GM, it’s Bryan…you interested in calderon?
abc GM: “you mean the guy with an opp PER that is less than no defender at all? No I’m good.”
There were only two teams willing to pay Turk what we paid him over the summer and that’s coming off a GREAT finals appearance. I don’t think his value has increased since than with the year he’s having.
Bosh is the only option.
Sincerely,
Bryan Colangelo
Scott,
I never suggested trading Calderon, or Turkoglu for that matter. I certainly wouldn’t trade away the best player on the team. Bargnani is the guy I’d look at trading. Let’s look at it this way, if the Raptors keep Bosh, then they really only need one defensive big man to make this club viable defensively. A team can be a good defensive team with Bosh, Turkoglu, DeRozan Calderon and someone like Noah, Okafor or Varejao. Only one front court player will be below average defensively, and they’ll have an excellent rebounding front court, even with Turkoglu being below average.
If the team keeps Bargnani, then even if they get someone like Noah, Okafor or Varejao, two front court player will still be below average defensively and they’ll still have problems rebounding the ball.
So if the team trades Bosh, they’ll also have to trade Turkoglu and possibly Calderon in order to make up for Bargnani’s shortcomings. Since you just said those two can’t be traded, if you want a good team, you keep Bosh and trade Bargnani. Otherwise you’ll be stuck with a bad defensive and bad rebounding team no matter who you get back. Well, unless they get Dwight Howard for Bosh. And I don’t see that happening.
I’ve been saying this for a long time and the tribal honking fans on this forum wouldn’t hear of it … so thanks for showing up and gracing us with your logical and realistic assessment of the Raptor’s future.
I have no idea why you included Banks in that “world” when he expires after next season. Don’t try to pretend you meant imagine next year, because Bosh doesn’t make 22 mil next year. You’re the kind of “sky is falling” propagandist. Naughty naughty.
My “view of the world” used next year’s salaries…Banks (and his contract) is a footnote in that world. Bosh will be averaging 22 million over 6 years.
garnett is a terrible defender – you are so right.
Uh, you realize you just said that Kevin-Freaking-Garnett isn’t a dominant defensive presence… You really don’t think KG is a dominant defender?
Wow.
Anyway, in this day and age, no player, regardless of position, can carry a team single-handedly. You might remember a recent Lakers team where one guy had to score 81 points to win a game only to get beat up in the playoffs by the “No Amare” Suns.
Bosh is a great player but the team needs to get better to win. Leave it at that. He’s not your problem…
I was joking, commenting on Simon’s post re. tweeners. Not obvious?
Isn’t everybody getting a little tired of going through this insecurity of will, or won’t our star player want to stay in Toronto?
We went throught it with Damon,Tracy,Antonio,Vince, and now Chris.I’ve had it up to here kissing basketball players asses hoping they’ll want to stay here.It dominates the conversation far too much and makes a Toronto supporter feel 2nd class.
Toronto fans have no reason to EVER kiss @ss and beg for guys to play here and neither should their GMs.
If Chris doesn’t want to commit, that’s his right and no hard feelings here.
But that means you trade him for VALUE that’s under contract before he can leave here for nothing.
There is no reason to ever invest yourself in any player who does not reciprocate.
And YES Bosh will be missed if he is traded or leaves, but there is always the next player.
yup. well put.
that’s just it… all this talk about being sent back to the cave ages if he leaves is idiotic.
I’ve seen the Chris Bosh Development show for six long years, and for one, I’m ready for something different. If it don’t work…fix it.
FLUX .. I hear ya buddy, but all the newbies here have a mancrush on Bosh … and their miserable lives will crash if Bosh leaves or is traded … LOL
Exactly! Bosh has had six years and plenty of different looking complimentary players. He cannot make it happen and we’re going to get stiffed at the end of the year..either we lose him for nothing, or give him the bank and get stuck at 500 for the rest of his contract.
You’re calling the junk that Bosh has had around him for most of his time in Toronto complimentary? He’s only had one season where he had half decent talent around him an entire season, and they won 47 games. And even then, he was the only All-Star on the roster. Before that, he had Mike James and Jalen Rose. Last year, when he did have Shawn Marion to play with, and everyone was healthy, the team played well. I’ve already brought up examples of elite players who couldn’t carry mediocre to bad teams (Wade, Kobe, Garnett, Pierce, Nash).
You keep harping on the fact that Bosh can’t carry the team when I’ve already shown you than nobody else can, either. You’re expecting more out of Bosh than of Kobe Bryant! How is that a reasonable argument?
welcome to toronto.
This article should be reposted come playoff time (or better yet after the first round) which by then there will be a clear definition and consensus on what a Raptor max/franchise player is (surely this is more than just numbers, percentages, or ranks).
I have the impression though that he may stay with the franchise if it hurdles its first-round playoff assignment and I would not be surprised either if he accepts a reasonable raise bundled with ACC ticket subsidies (dream on fans) and increased funding for his foundations. I think CB is deep and, like other NBAers, just longs to wear ring/s. He’ll probably lead a new batch of players who loves the game more than Franklin – but of course you can’t blame his agent who has very strong motive to pursue max money for him!
Go Raps Go!
In terms of what the market will pay, of course Bosh is a maximum player. Anyone who disputes that is just trying to be contrary or is an idiot. Unfortunately, Bosh is not the type of player you necessarily want getting the max. Most people would be more comfortable paying a player the max if they can handle the ball. I hope that either Hedo or DeRozan can be the side-kick that Bosh needs and deserves. Garnett could not do it on his own, he needed Pierce. So, when Bosh gets his money, the deciding factor will likely be the play of either Hedo or DeRozan or some other player acquired in a trade.
he needed Pierce AND Allen AND Rondo AND a handful of vets willing to play for the minimum….and…wait for it…
THE NBA to give them an insane amount of calls in the 7 game series vs Atlanta and Cleveland.
Enough with the Garnett talk. I mean seriously. Talk about a guy who is overrated and overpaid- Garnett is it.
Okay, so Bosh is a max money player … but will the MLSE & BC want to have a max money player on the Raptors as the team rebuilds and develops over the next 2-4 seasons?
I have suggested that the MLSE will not want to invest $130+ Million in one player over the next 6 years .. and instead BC will try to get several good young athletic players and develop the team around these players, and not just one all-star player in whom the t.h. fans can direct their “love”.
Another factor is that Triano is not a proven playoff coach, and his role is to develop players regardless of the W-L record this season … and BC accepts that too.
If you look objectively at the current Raptor roster, you will see a gaggle of Euro players … and I doubt Bosh will sacrifice his career staying in Toronto and looking at this doubly foreign team (Euros + Canada). Also, Bosh has enough money for 100+ lifetimes, and his quality of preferred life becomes a factor in his future decisions where he wants to play and live.
If Bosh can get a near-max contract from Miami, Chicago, NYK, whoever, I would wish him well, because I doubt the MLSE will offer Bosh anything near a max contract .. regardless of the deluded wishes of t.h. fans who can’t live without an all-star hero player like Bosh to fantasize about.
MLSE will offer Bosh a max contract…. its been stated implicitly by BC many times.
No … I believe the MLSE may say Bosh is a max contract player, and they are saying so because they want max trade value for Bosh. If you have made the decision to trade Bosh, why not max out his value so you can max out your return?!
“I believe” believe all you want…. I’ll listen to what the GM is saying while you decifer conspiracies.
You claim BC was “implicit” … so he was not “explicit” … leaving room for doubt. If that satisfies you then perhaps it is you who should more explicit in your assertions.
and your comment is based on nothing but your own assumptions… thats why I would rather rely on what BC has said than what you are assuming
Get it in writing from BC .. because nobody will remember what he may have said a long time ago … LOL
FAQ – does it only count if written in blood or is any written statement from BC worth more than your opinion. Pls inform.
Thought you were pretty explicit when you said you’d leave this forum if the Raptors don’t go 3-30. Why aren’t you gone yet?
I’ve been saying for a long time that you are a repetitive, narcissistic windbag but you are such a tribal honking fan of yourself you just wouldn’t listen, lol. Don’t worry kid, we’ll get there…
Good distinction, and one I think fans aren’t considering. Yes, Bosh is a max contract player based on his stats and who is being paid max contracts in the NBA. But, as a franchise, is he a player worth investing $130 million in for 6 years, basically eliminating any salary flexibility, based on the team’s results with Bosh to date? Or based on the anticipated results – i.e. are we really a player or two away from being a championship contender with Bosh? And, I’m not talking Lebron or Wade as that player, because that’s never going to happen. That’s my unscientific way of looking at max contracts. You have to be really careful about giving them out. Not just because he’s your best player, or a good guy, you do it because that is the guy who is going to take you to (or close to) the big prize. I just don’t think it’s Bosh.
Just look at the Raptor’s salary structure now … with long term contracts given to Hedo, Jose, Bargs, even Banks … is there room for max money Bosh without going into luxury tax … and will such an investment make the Raptors a playoff team??
I think not, but if the MLSE does offer Bosh a max money contract, Bosh can still reject it and return to the USA if he so decides.
Another possibility I suppose is to give Bosh a max money contract which he can accept … and then after one or two seasons, trade him to a US team where he will retain his max money contract.
You left out the sign&trade option available to the Raptors. This is the only way Bosh gets to satisy his lust (according to your prognostications) for a Stateside team and not leaving about 30 mill. on the table. This would be an interesting exercise since BC would have a say on which team to trade him to (depending on the value coming back). Poker anyone?
“with long term contracts given to Hedo, Jose, Bargs, even Banks”
Wow, are you really that big a moron? How in the world of nearly expiring contracts is Banks a long term contract? Ready to eat your own words and leave this site? Hmmm…
Misspoke myself .. meant “Jack” … and only a moron like you would have assumed I meant “Banks” … LOL
doesnt make him a moron. Banks still does have 1 more year on his contract and even if the banks contract existed long term its only 5 mil and it was a side dish to the main course:
the point about jose and hedo and andrea is well put.
He will be offered max money.Those who are now questioning the worth in keeping Bosh are doing so strictly to protect their ego, kinda like breaking up with your girlfriend before she breaks up with you.
Perhaps it’s you who is protecting your t.h. ego by asserting Bosh will be offered max money … all without any rational justification … but that’s what fantasizing video game player do … a lot …!!!!
Sorry, don’t own any video games, but clearly you get riled easily and take shots at those who don’t share your opinion.Bosh will get max money, jusified or not, here or somewhere else.I’m frankly just tired of seeing Raptor fans spend so much time fixating on our players wanting to play in Toronto or not.It happens every time we have a star player up for renewal.
Dream on ……
Public poll (you can see who voted for what):
http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316
Listened to Bosh interviewed post-game … it seems he’s lost his thick Texas homeboy drawl … and he even seems to be pronouncing his words almost like a … Canadian!!!!!
Typical Raptor truthers in the comments. I like Bosh, but someone said he’s leading the league in points in the paint. Simply not true. Look up facts before posting. Bosh isn’t even in the top five (see below).
Name PIP PG
1. Andrew Bynum (Lakers) – 14.0
2. Andrew Bogut (Bucks) – 12.7
3. Monta Ellis (Warriors) – 12.6
4. Kobe Bryant (Lakers) – 12.4
5. Pau Gasol (Lakers) – 12.3
Where does he rank? I assume that does not include FT made after getting fouled in the paint. If (and it would likely be damn near impossible to get) you ran an “effective” PIP # (incorporating FT) than Bosh would be top 5.
Assuming that Bosh current contract expires only after the playoffs have ended next year , isn’t it likely that BC will wait to see how the Raptors are doing in the playoffs ?. I think that the minimum Bosh will have to accomplish in order to get his max money with the Raptors is to guide them to a conference semi-final . It is not impossible noting that NY went down to Atlanta last week and beat them (playoffs are a different matter though).
Banks contract expires in 2011 which will free up some money to go forward after 2011.
i was a raptor fan before bosh. I’ll be a raptor fan after bosh. if management deem Chris worthy of a max contract that’s fine with me. my only concern are Chris’s knees and the history of other failed max money big men that don’t have a bearing on wins and a lot of times when the team isn’t doing well Chris wilts and his body language clearly states, “woe is me”. dudes who wilt and are supposed to be franchise players make my stomach turn.
mind you,these last 2 games Ive seen a different bosh.on one play in particular he snagged an o board his teeth were gritted and showing his fangs he went up with aggression and anger and laid it in. that’s max money. if he can continue with that style of play and carry this team. by all means,lock him up. does Chris want it? does Chris want to be the #1 or be traded and be a pau to kobe #2. if he want franchise player status it’s on him. im sick of people making lame excuses and blaming management, blaming teammates, blaming ethnicity, blaming assistant coaches, blaming everything including the weather and whatever else bogus bull crap they can muster up to defend Chris…it’s on Chris because with great power comes great responsibility.
Bosh may be attempting to display his basketball skills to the entire league so somebody will offer him a max money contract … because he knows that BC will offer him something less than a Raptor $130+ Million max contract … given that Hedo, Jose, Bargs, Jack and even DeRozan have reasonable long term contracts and the team needs several more good players.
Perhaps BC has decided to not build the Raptors around Bosh .. but would like to trade him for several good athletes which would round out the Raptors as a decent blue-collar team who can reach the lower rungs of the playoffs for the next few seasons … because sure as hell the Raps will not be one of the top 4 teams in the Eastern Conference for several more seasons … believe it.
Unless something changes.
And things always change.
Sometimes even for the better.
Hey, brothersteve … you still scumming about in the Twilight Zone ..??!!!
News flash fellas you don’t trade your best player for potential, you build around him.
Do you think Bosh believes that BC is building “around him” with Hedo, Bargs, Jose, DeMar, Jack, Belinelli … all basketball-wise but not athletic ???!!!!
I’m sorry, but did you just say DeMar is not athletic? Plus, where is Amir on your list?
Jack and Beli aren’t bad either; not great, but not bad.
News flash..that really worked on the Jays, Leafs, etc…
Does anyone have any stat breakdown and rankings for Bosh’s 4th qtr and last 5 min. performances.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM
82games.com does.
Liston has this all correct…in the words of Yo Gotti and Lil’ Wayne – “women lie, men lie, numbers don’t lie.”
… Ball don’ lie…
When did we fans get caught up in contracts? We should pay whatever it takes to keep our stars here and demand the owners to anti up to build a winning team. Period.
Nice to live in a warm fuzzy dream world that ignores the facts, sorry.
Both sides win.
I think if Chris Bosh wants to remain a Raptor he will be resigned. I think if he plays continues near this level there is no question he will get max dollar.
Whether Bosh wishes to stay or not is up to the performance of this team. If we underachieve I don’t think BC will gamble on him walking, so a trade is possible. If no deal is made, he’ll finish out the season and work a S&T with BC.
BrotherSteve (someone you should all listen to) mentioned that the “fair” thing for Bosh to do would be sign now and agree to sign and trade later if things don’t work. Respectfully disagree – Why would Bosh give up hand? This ain’t sport, it’s business.
Should the Raptors continue to show life on the defnsive side, and no, shutting down the Wizards and the Bulls is not enough to make me swallow the kool-aid, and make some noise, well Bosh will stay. He loves the city. Lets lose this inferiority comples. Toronto is a great city – almost as great as Montreal.
this is a great thread right now.
lots of good discussion going on.
this is one of the truly great mysteries of Toronto.
Im not sure there is another city anywhere in the world, where the star player has such a split fan base reaction- even when he is putting up huge numbers.
Im not a big Bosh fan personally, but I find it hard to knock him this year. Having said that, I think both schools here (the bosh is and bosh is not a max guy arguers) make some good points.
thanks for the entertainment this evening!
If we lose Bosh and Bargs doesn’t improve a lot between now and the end of the season, I could definately see this franchise building around DeRozen. He’s on of BC’s picks so BC will be keen on the idea of him being a super star, he’s already showing some flashes of brilliance against other teams starters in limited minutes and the guy is just plain entertaining. So while it would be pretty grim to lose Bosh, I see a lot of hope for this franchise if he does leave.
On another note is it just me or has BC slowly gotten rid of everyone that was part of this organization before he got here. Bosh is really the last person around that is a holdover from the pre BC Raptor era (Colderon too I guess), so it would not surprise me if BC trades him. It’s not like BC has really attempted to put together a team that compliments Bosh’s style of play (before this year he didn’t do a tremendous amount of deep post work) so maybe this is some sort of plan he’s had since the get go. Just a thought.
And in 5 years we will be sucking, DD will be an all-star and want out. We have to KEEP talent to build!
How is Bosh both 1st and 4th in offensive rebounds?
Comments saying we should ditch Bosh because “he’s no Kobe/Wade/Lebron” is like me telling you that I have a model-worthy hot ass girlfriend with DD’s, a tight ass and a great personality whose up for ANYTHING in bed – and almost any guy would KILL to have…..BUT…. I should dump her ass right now and wait for Megan Fox/Beyonce/Jenna Jameson to come calling? ……ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR GODDAMNED MIND????? ITS NOT A RHETORICAL QUESTION!!! ARE….YOU….INSANE???
you forgot to mention how well she’ll play with your other twelve buddies, and whether she’ll be so good for the next six years that everyone else will be best friends and do anything they can to help you including helping all your buddies be better sexual partners etc..
Settling is perfectly understandable in life, but unless the Raptors are the first professional sports team aiming to live a long contented life through making babies instead of winning basketball games, there is nothing insane about a team continually aspiring for the highest possible talent.
There is certainly something wrong with continually gutting a team until you get a top 3 player. It certainly hasn’t worked for the Clippers.
No way the Celtics would have been able to bring in Ray and KG if they’d traded Paul Pierce because they weren’t winning with him. Having Bosh is only going to HELP the Raptors bring in more quality, unless you’re planning on being a lottery team until you draft a Lebron (who has won exactly as many rings as Bosh, I might add).
I just want to highlight this very good post.
The one thing that scares me as a fan is seeing the Raptors sneak into the playoffs and get hammered in the 1st round. That’s a worst case scenario since Miami gets our upcoming draft pick and Bosh may well leave in the off-season in search of a better supporting cast, or just a change of scenery. If that happened, and right now I think it’s fairly likely, the Raptors are left with no picks (unless a S & T gets one) and a bunch of money tied up in a team without a star, whether a “franchise player” or something slightly less.
That’s why you consider trading Bosh. This team may be mired in mediocrity despite his talents, not because. (New Orleans really looks like it will have the same problem with Chris Paul.) But you probably still have to blow a team like that up and start fresh, through the draft.
And yes, if I’m right, it’s on Colangelo, although he might be as qualified as anyone (outside of San Antonio’s management) to clean up his own mess.
But I hear what Tim W. says about blowing teams up. Sure, Portland and OKC look good now but one hasn’t made it out of the 1st round yet and the other has yet to make the playoffs. Maybe the Raps are a Calderon or Bargnani (or both) trade away from true contention. I’m still enamoured of Calderon for Baron Davis but am less convinced the Clips would do that deal (or that Baron would want to come here, which is kind of key for a guy like him)
I know alot of people are on Calderon (getting blamed for our teams defense and all) but Baron Davis? Have you seen what he has been doing for the past 2 years? I don’t doubt that the Clip jump on that in a sec. Davis is complete balls.
This year Baron’s stats are better. Over the course of his career his PER is comparable to Jose’s, if not better. And he’s generally regarded as a better (maybe even much better) defender than Calderone. He’s a different kind of player. Drives more. Can’t shoot as well. He’s also notorious for tanking when un-motivated. But he might be a better fit for the kind of team Triano and Colangelo seem to be trying to build.
But if Jose grows a kick-ass beard, I’m fine with him.
IF KG WAS PUTTING UP THOSE NUMBERS PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE IS KG THE BEST BIG MAN OF THE YEAR . . . I PERSONALLY THINK BOSH IS THE BEST BIG MAN THIS YEAR IN PFS AND CS . . .
Very good article, Liston. Greatly enjoyed the comments and debate it elicited, as well. I’ll admit to occasionally wondering if Bosh is REALLY as good as I’ve generally thought he is, for years now … and then, he’ll go out and do what he did the last couple games and I’ll end up wondering what the hell I was thinking!
The thing about him that I appreciate most is that he’s one of those rare players who CONTINUALLY does whatever he can TO GET BETTER. So, as great as he is right now, there’s really no telling how much better he might actually get to be … or how ‘ready’ he’ll be in the future, when it’s time to step up and do whatever it’ll take to win the big prize. I only hope when that happens, he’s still with the Raptors.
Just want to add one point to the discussion. Let’s assume:
1) Bosh is padding his stats to get a max money deal
2) Bosh does not want to return to Toronto
3) Teams fall for the stat padding strategy and value him based on his numbers
This would still help Toronto when it comes time to negotiate a S&T deal. If other teams value Bosh more highly for his padded stats, all the better. Then they will be more eager to acquire him and more likely to offer the Raptors something they want.
If a sign and trade is the only option, I’d take a trade exception and draft picks before I took back players.
Dave .. you got that right … but the real question is would BC trade Bosh this season or will he wait until the season is over … because teams like the NYK will be actively bidding for max money players like Lebron .. and what better bait to use than having Bosh signed up to attract other max money players ???
The example I use is trading Bosh to the NYK for Lee, Darko and Gallinari … and doing it this season so that the NYK can use Bosh as bait for Lebron.
The better question is, why would a team give up so much in a trade when they might end up losing Bosh at the end of the season? Obviously you only trade Bosh mid-season if you get a great deal, and no one is going to offer a great deal for Bosh when they can sign him a few months later.
“The example I use is trading Bosh to the NYK for Lee, Darko and Gallinari … and doing it this season so that the NYK can use Bosh as bait for Lebron.”
Why do people keep bringing up this stupid trade? Would you really add more below average defenders to this Raptor squad? Besides, New York can’t trade Lee because he signed a one year contract, so let’s just drop Lee completely (and then forget about him forever).
technically, i believe it is possible to trade lee, just very difficult (bordering on impossible). he’s a byc guy, so his outgoing trade value is 1/2 of his actual salary. i believe he’d have veto power in any trade, as trading him means he’d being giving up his bird rights.
don’t take this to mean that i disagree. it’s completely idiotic & unrealistic. darko is out of the L after this year, gallinari is an intriguing prospect on just about any other team in the L (if a starting frontline of turk, bargs & gallinari doesn’t make you shit your pants, you haven’t been paying attention), and lee is highly overrated as a defender (good on the glass, decent offensive game thoguh). oh, not to mention that bargs, gallinari & lee all play pretty much the same position (ditto for darko, but i assume he wouldn’t be around long).
btw…there’s only one ‘people’ who keep bringing it up…
You can’t trade player’s with one year contracts. Not sure why, but you can’t. It’s the same with Rasho, who the Raptors can’t trade because he’s on a one year contract.
And maybe it just seems like it’s more than one person because he keeps bringing it up.
uh, i’m pretty sure the only restriction is that 90-days had to pass from the time of the signing (or Dec.15th, whichever is later).
as i mentioned above, lee would have to consent to a trade; if he were to consent, he’d lose his bird rights & become a non-bird FA at the end of the year.
Yup, you’re right. I didn’t see your mention of Lee having to consent to the trade, which is also correct. Of course, Lee would never consent to the trade, since he’d lose his Bird rights, so the trade is still a no go.
I totally agree with JP, Bosh is not a Jordan, he’s a pippen! He chokes against big time opponents and if he does have a big game its in a loss, when he starts having monster numbers against the celtics or suns and we win, then I’ll start labeling him “Franchise Player”. Only one big shot in his career and that was against the 76ers in a season opening game! If he’s the franchise then why is turkoglu getting all the shots with the game on the line???
“… if he does have a big game its in a loss…”
I’m not sure what years you are using for this statement – the last two, I have summarized here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IwZQZ7LFSM7J01ZHY08a8w?feat=directlink
Bosh generally has *better* numbers in wins. (positive “delta” shows better performance in wins)
Against BOS, PHO this year – and I added ORL, DAL and SAS as top teams (you could argue against SAS I suppose), Bosh is avg 12.4 rebounds (slightly above avg), shoots 49.6% from the field (slightly above avg) and 26.4 pts per game (2.2 pts above average).
I made the point above. The game is 48 minutes. Turn the ball over 6 times during the game, shot 38% from the field, but if you make one shot at the end (that you shouldn’t have needed to take if you shot better and didn’t turn the ball over all those times) then you a franchise player?!
Could a franchise player be a guy that is effective the whole game, but maybe doesn’t take 20 last second shots a year (and perhaps makes 35%, but our memories “forget” all the misses as the highlights show the makes over and over?)
http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
really? and here i thought bosh was right behind jordan as an all-time great. thanks for clearing that up, nostradamus. any other bold statements or predictions?
so, who is ‘a jordan?’ and who is their ‘pippen?’ obviously, there are scales of ‘jordan/pippen-ness’ – let’s rank ‘em.
kobe/pau? or kobe/bynum? lebron and…and? hmm, does LBJ have a ‘pippen?’ can’t think of one. duncan & manu in their heyday? pierce & KG? wade and…beasley? who’s the 2nd fiddle on the heat? JO? dirk & kidd?
i’m looking around the league, and there are many stellar players, stars even, and very few superstars that don’t need anything more than solid, complementary players to have a competitive roster. obviously, bosh isn’t on that level, but does that have more to do with who he is as a player, or what he is as a player?
“I totally agree with JP, Bosh is not a Jordan, he’s a pippen!”
So you’re saying that Bosh is a top 50 player. I certainly wouldn’t go that far.
And do we really need to go over, yet again, why Bosh doesn’t get the last shot and Turkoglu does? Hasn’t this point been pointed out to death? Apparently not.
Let’s just say it’s the same reason Tim Duncan never has, or Shaq, or Dwight Howard, or Kevin Garnett. Notice the trend here?
“So you’re saying that Bosh is a top 50 player. I certainly wouldn’t go that far.”
He is playing in that class this year, and if he continues to do so until age 30, then he is a top 50 player.
I’m not the world’s biggest Pippen fan, and I certainly think Bosh is a better player now than Pippen ever was.
I think Bosh, Garnett, and Dirk are about equal in terms of their overall contributions, obviously Bosh and Dirk are more offensive-oriented players, but overall they probably help their teams about the same amount. I’m talking about Garnett in his prime, which definitely isn’t now, of course.
You think that Bosh is better than Pippen right now? Uh, did you ever watch Pippen in his prime? I think Bosh is a great player, but you’ve got to be kidding that you think he’s better than Pippen. I think you may be underrating him because he played most of his time with Jordan. The season Jordan didn’t play, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, shooting nearly 50%, 5.6 apg, 8.7 rpg, 2.9 spg, had the fourth highest player efficiency rating in the league (behind David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Shaq, and ahead of Karl Malone), was 1st team All-NBA AND All-Defense, was third in MVP voting (behind Hakeem and Robinson) and led his team to 55 wins. I’m sorry, however much I like Bosh, if he was as good as Pippen was, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.
Good read, very good points. However,
“I believe Chris Bosh hasn’t made up his mind. How can he? He doesn’t know how this team will finish. Nor does he know what teams will have cap room and what their plans are”
That’s wishful thinking more than anything my man. Bosh has his mind made up, and his future is down south somewhere. His agent (also Wade’s agent) im sure is taking sneak peaks into where the big skinny could land. Forget that we’re raptors fans for a seconds…put yourself in CB’s shoes and try and picture your world. You just spent 7 years on a team that’s done nothing (compared to contenders down south) but talk to keep you happy and show you seriousness in winning. You’re also entering your prime, about to sign one of the biggest contracts in NBA history, and control your destiny. I believe Miami Beach, Hollywood or home sweet home is a lot more attractive than Toronto.
I also believe that Bosh has had his mind set since last year…
BC needs to trade him for the most profitable return while we still can…before we suffer another huge blow as Toronto sports fans.
ugh. i guess only raptor ‘fans’ truly see what’s really going on…that the raps’ poor start was firmly at the feet of bosh, since he’s no leader, and whithers under pressure. best plan is definitely to get rid of him, and build around the stellar hedo/bargs/jose triumvirate.
i also luuuv hearing about how TO will ‘never’ attract top-flight FA’s, and yet the recommended plan is to let him go, and…do what, exactly? build around this core? really? that’s the plan? use the $$ they have available by him leaving to…what? sign top-tier FA’s, the one’s who would ‘never’ come to a foreign, cold-weather country to play on a team half-comprised of euros? i mean, that’s what is being sold here, right?
look…i’m not some bleeding heart, i know it’s a business. if the raps can work a trade for bosh that helps them (if he decides he’d prefer to sign elsewhere), then so be it. i just find it incredulous that ‘fans’ of this team would actively promote moving him for what would inevitibly turn out to be a bag of peanuts. there’s a tiny, microscopic part of me that hopes the naysayers get their wish, because only then will they fully realize what that reality would be like.
finally – good fucking gawd, i’m tired of the ‘bosh isn’t clutch,’ ‘bosh ain’t no leader,’ ‘bosh is a second-banana,’ ‘he’s not worth max money,’ blah blah blah. you know what? maybe that’s true. but the ultimate truth is this: he’s gonna get max money. and it’s gonna be from a team with either a shot to contend now, or a team that will have a shot to contend once they get him. if he’s the final piece towards contending for team X, then why the fuck can’t that team X be the raps? can someone name me another team that traded away their franchise guy & then went on to have better success without him? it seems to me that the vitriole that’s come out of late against bosh is really misdirected angst at the collection of players that have been put around him.
Hopefully we won’t have to experience that possible dose of reality but there is a piece of me that wants to see him play for a winning team and get his due, with fans that truly appreciate his efforts and let these ’2 for 1′ fans see what happens when you get two lesser pieces for 1 greater piece and have to depend on your over-rated ‘core’ to fight the rest of the bottom feeders to see who’s the tallest midget.
“can someone name me another team that traded away their franchise guy & then went on to have better success without him?”
Philadelphia reached the Finals after they traded away Charles Barkley. Sure, it took 6 years in the lottery, another 3 years after that, and getting the number one pick and a Hall of Fame coach, but still.
Of course, years later, Philadelphia traded Iverson away and improved, but Denver improved when Iverson was traded away from them a year and a half later, so I think that probably says more about Iverson than anything else.
$80 mil / 5 years is already a MAX contract. So then the question becomes how much Bosh actually wants. He does not have to get the $130 mil / 6 years contract which is the absolute MAX he can get.
Appreciate the analysis, and it’s fair to point out that Bosh hasn’t been surrounded with enough quality players, but I’m personally not convinced. Bosh is an excellent player and seems like a genuinely good dude. Doesn’t mean I want the Raps to commit such a huge chunk of their cap to him for the next 6 years. I don’t think the +/- stats are really indicative of his defensive weakness. He’s stronger now but he still gets pushed around in the post and his help D is often extremely passive. He gets burned on the perimeter if he’s switched out on 3s or even quick 4s (that’s an area where Bargs is better), doesn’t block lots of shots and he doesn’t have great hands in terms of stripping the ball away. If we traded Bargs for a C who could be a presence in the lane, I’d worry less about that.
He’s not a good passer and still tends to hold the ball for too long. I don’t exactly trust his knees to hold up for the next 6 years. And I don’t like how he’s allowed himself to disappear in games agains the likes of KG and Rasheed over the years. I know those guys are great defenders but his body language has not been good in those games. I think it’s harder to make your teammates better when you’re playing PF but I can’t say that he’s shown much leadership.
Again, he’s an excellent player and I’d love for him to stay a Raptor. I might think differently about the max offer if BC was willing to move some combo of Calderon, Bargs and Turk. But to have so much cash tied up in these 4 guys doesn’t make any sense to me.
you’ve raised some good points; some are obviously opinions, and someone else viewing the same data as you might see things differently.
your last point was what struck me though. essentially, the premise that because the raps already have a number of long-term contracts for high-$$ for questionable overall productivity guys, there’s a hesitancy to keep bosh around for what would likely be a max deal.
let’s examine the logic in that for a quick sec. you have a few bad contracts. the best way to get around that would be to let a guy go who would actually be worth the contract he’ll be getting somewhere else (you can argue the merits of whether bosh is ‘worth’ a max deal, but you cannot argue that he does not produce at a level befitting a max-contract guy, moreso than bargs/hedo & jose do not produce to the level of their respective contracts).
one last unrealted thing, then i’m done: the argument that the raps could sign two $10M/yr guys who would give the raps what bosh does (combined) for what bosh would be earning on a max deal is illogical. there is only room on the floor for 5 guys. if you need to have two guys on the floor to equal bosh’s output, and the money is the same, then the logical choice would be to have all that production & all that $$ in one guy, doesn’t it? am i missing something here? i mean, if i have $30K to spend on a vehicle, what good does it do me to go out & buy two hyundai accents, when i could buy a honda accord for the same money? i can only drive one at a time.
you’ve raised some good points; some are obviously opinions, and someone else viewing the same data as you might see things differently.
your last point was what struck me though. essentially, the premise that because the raps already have a number of long-term contracts for high-$$ for questionable overall productivity guys, there’s a hesitancy to keep bosh around for what would likely be a max deal.
let’s examine the logic in that for a quick sec. you have a few bad contracts. the best way to get around that would be to let a guy go who would actually be worth the contract he’ll be getting somewhere else (you can argue the merits of whether bosh is ‘worth’ a max deal, but you cannot argue that he does not produce at a level befitting a max-contract guy, moreso than bargs/hedo & jose do not produce to the level of their respective contracts).
one last unrelated thing, then i’m done: the argument that the raps could sign two $10M/yr guys who would give the raps what bosh does (combined) for what bosh would be earning on a max deal is illogical. there is only room on the floor for 5 guys. if you need to have two guys on the floor to equal bosh’s output, and the money is the same, then the logical choice would be to have all that production & all that $$ in one guy, doesn’t it? am i missing something here? i mean, if i have $30K to spend on a vehicle, what good does it do me to go out & buy two hyundai accents, when i could buy a honda accord for the same money? i can only drive one at a time.
Well this thread is already too long but WTF. On the Pippen thing: Yeah, he didn’t win a title without Jordan but to anyone who watched more than a game in the 90′s it was glaringly obvious that he could play. He might have been the greatest 2nd banana of all time. And if the Bulls had missed out on Jordan (because Portland realized God has decreed they can’t draft big men) and then drafted Pippen, I’m fairly confident there was a way, maybe even more than one way, to build a championship team around him. You guys do realize the Bulls were perhaps the only team other than the Billups-lead Pistons (another complete anomaly) to win it all without a dominant big man. They drafted the greatest player to ever play the game (and a complete a**hole to boot) rendering Pippen a 2nd banana. That formula to win multiple titles is unlikely to be reproduced, although maybe Lebron can be the focus of it if Cleveland (or someone else) gets the right 2nd banana and role players. Bosh can be the focal point of a team that goes deep into the playoffs. It just might not be the Raptors as constructed.
And if Shaq and Kobe had come up just a bit short against Portland in that game 7 for the ages, Pippen might have won one without Jordan.
Well, whatever happens, I don’t know about everyone else, but I have sincerely enjoyed watching Bosh turn into the player, the off-court classy guy that he is today.
Ya, there have been frustrations, missed shots, ‘lack of clutchness.’ etc…But he has taken in stride all of the responsibilities this franchise has placed on his shoulders.
Raps fans have had the opportunity to witness the real growth in maturity of one of the premier players in the league. He has consistently worked harder to improve his game, done everything coaches asked of him, dealt with the media as well as any other player in the league, and in his own way raised the profile of T.O. in the wake of losing VC (in exchange for practically nothing).
I can respect him as the face of our franchise for no other reason than because he is simply a very classy pro-athlete. I mean, what would be happening if CB4 right now behaved like LeBron did pre-season? Given the fragile constitution of this team (9 new players, newly promoted coach), we would be sitting at 3 wins, tops. But no, Bosh has deflected all questions and put the team on his back several times, and the team has been able to rally around his effort and his play.
Whatever happens at the end of this year, watching the development of CB4 has been something.
I hope we can see the same happen now with Mr. Heir Canada, (hopefully with CB4 still around :) )
Well said and I agree. Had a chance to see him on TV last night – The Hour – and … he is very cool, very classy and all around, a good guy. Didn’t sound to me like he was ‘planning’ on leaving and if I had to guess, I’d say that if the team shows the progress I think it will (I hope it will) he’s more likely to stay than not. I sure hope so. To me, the growth he’s shown (that you mention) only suggests that he’s not even yet as good as he’ll end up being. His story isn’t done, by a long shot.
If we are talking historical comparisons, I’d say Bosh is more of a Dominique Wilkins than a Pippen or a Jordan. He can be a team’s scoring leader, but I don’t see him ever being a shutdown defender the way those two Bulls players were. That was the thing that really made them dominant forces. ‘Nique led his team fairly deep into the playoffs(conference finals), made them a perennial offensive force and was a good citizen(at least from what I remember). Would Raptor fans be satisfied with that from Bosh?
The real question is, do Bosh really want to sign a max contract?
Maybe money don’t matter much to him.
I mean, how much money could someone want? He already made enough to last a couple life time. All professional athletes are overpaid, they do not deserve to make the amount of money they are making. I really hope they give part of their salary to charities…especially that Vernon Wells.
I’m pretty sure he already stated he wants a max contract
based on what they are paid the quality of life or standard of living isn’t going to be any different whether they get a max contract or not.
I think they go for the most money because
- their agents advise them to do so
- they are competitive and
- self validation
I have heard some rationale arguements for not giving bosh a max contract – you end up constraining the team’s ability to improve the roster – that is a very valid concern however if you don’t sign him the odds are the team will be worse next season – and being worse is no guarantee that this will result of you be better in the long run. given that players are drafted younger and younger these days it is more and more of a crap shoot. for every lebron there are two or three kwame browns.
‘In a skit he wrote, Bosh portrays a comically demanding children’s basketball coach and, in one of the disc’s highlights, he travels around Toronto, confronting his Internet haters (played by actors). He smacks a footlong sub sandwich out of one fan’s hand, steals a critic’s bicycle and takes to a street basketball court to dunk emphatically over a child who made disparaging comments about him on the web.’
If only he could duplicate these efforts in the real world.
It would be funny to see him stick that ‘second banana’ where it belongs. lol
Here’s a thought: why don’t we not change the roster for a couple years? Sign Bosh if we can and keep this group. Its a young team that is improving week in and week out. If Bosh decides to go somewhere else at the end of the year, sign and trade him to a team that has young talent and get them. This is a talented team as it stands but it is young. Our starting shooting guard is a Rookie, Bargs is 24, Bosh is 25 (26 at the end of the season) and calderon is 28. Only Turk is over 30 among the starters. I think if this team makes the playoffs this year while still developping DeRozen it shows that the same group could be a title contender in a year or two. If we lose Bosh this process will be slowed but I think we’ll still be in contntion within two or three seasons so long as we get someone who can fill in most of his rebounding. Also if Bosh leavs and we don’t S&T, do we get to use the money we would have spent on him on someone else in the Free agent Class? This is a very good year and while losing Bosh with nothing to show for it would hurt us, it might not kill us if we got to use the money for someone else.
“I think if this team makes the playoffs this year while still developping DeRozen it shows that the same group could be a title contender in a year or two.”
I’m usually over-optimistic, but sorry, there’s no way I see this exact group of players becoming title-contenders in a year or two. I sure as hell hope so, but there’s no way I see it happening. You need defence to become one of the elite teams, and the Raptors don’t have that (at least haven’t shown it constantly and effectively). I can’t see these same players who suck at defence somehow becoming a lockdown defensive team given nothing more then time. Again, I hope I’m wrong, but the cieling for this team imho is 2nd tier; win a round or mayybe two and that’s it. But even then I think a looottt has to go right for that to happen.
You forgot to adjust for his horrible girly hair. I think that alone takes him right out of the conversation. I’d say offer him $12mil and bump it to $14 if he shaves his head. If he puts it in cornrows… $7mil.
I honestly believe Bosh is worth the max money.
Sure, he isn’t at the level of other max money players like Kobe and Lebron. But the max amount any player can be paid is capped at $15million-ish. Maybe if the max cap was raised or player salaries forcibly scaled relative to how everyone else in the league is performing, then Bosh would not be a max money player. But as it is now, Bosh definitely deserves a max contract.
Funny clip about Chris Bosh’s fired up play this year
Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CarbonJones