The “well then” edition.
Banks – seriously…activate him and sit Weems. Try something.
Bargnani – ran the lane once, hit some nice shots, but defensively he lived up to my fellow RR brethren’s low expectations. As disappointing as ordering a black coffee, but getting a double double.
Belinelli – hit 2 shots but committed 2 turnovers that hurt. Some wanker on twitter said this trade was the most underrated one of the offseason. See..and they say that Raptors fans can’t be blindly optimistic.
Bosh – One great quarter but a silent 3 quarters. Kind of like going to Mandarin, getting there on time for the fresh chicken balls, but left with only noodles and steamed broccoli the rest of the night. Sure, he got his double double, but he was invisible when we needed him.
Calderon – started the game like the good old days. Seemed like he could have taken a shot from section 312 and at least hit rim. He was even active defensively through most of the game, until the 4th quarter when the Raptors collectively turned into a turtle.
DeRozan – 16 minutes of play, only 2 of which you could actually tell he was out there showing effort. Hmm……2 minutes of value in 16 minutes of action. Kinda reminds me of what Arsenalists woman told me about … er, never mind.
Evans – Beginning to wonder if he isn’t going home every night and hitting himself with a hammer extending his time away from being with this squad.
Jack – RapsFan hates it when he takes a jumper, but he stepped up big tonight. Nice shot of energy, hit some big shots and once again showed he and Jose can co-exist. Nice game that made RapsFan blush.
Johnson – not up to his normal workmanlike standards. Seemed to have trouble with the size of the Wizzers front court. He’s one of the bench guys we need to get a push from to push us over any hump in a game. Jack held up his end, Amir didn’t.
Mensah-Bonsu – they have 20 more days to figure out if they want to keep him or not. I’m thinking the fact he never gets off the bench for minutes that matter is a telling sign.
Nesterovic – I’m probably alone in this, but why not throw him out there for a few minutes against Haywood. Lay the body on him, maybe tire him out a little. Possibly even draw him out of the paint and open it up for others or let him hover near the paint and hit the jumper? Just askin.
O’Bryant – guess my Raptors MIP pick is not going to win me any money in the office pool.
Turkoglu- Mr (can’t hit a) Big Shot comes up empty in a Raptors uniform again. Strange that when I’m writing shorthand now, whenever I jot down the word “disappointment” I just shorten it to “Hedo”. He was touted as the guy to hit the clutch shots for us but tonight he had 2 chances late and delivered nothing.
Weems – stick him on the IR or send him to the DLeague. I actually feel sorry for the guy BUT I also wonder if his off-court and dressing room antics aren’t truly a distraction.
Wright – seriously another o-fer. At least he is becoming consistent. If he isn’t hitting his shots, I’m not sure what else he can (or is) bringing us.
Driving The Bus: Jarrett Jack
Under The Bus: Hedo Turkugly
Game Theme:
126 Raps
I don’t know about Bosh driving the bus today. He got absolutely torched by Jamison and got bounced around by Haywood. Funny part is, I don’t know who else should be driving it. Jack, maybe?
Jack is driving.
Pretty sure it was Bosh there first (prob from last game).
Raptors fans are jumping off bridges and building ledges as we speak. Something has to stop the bleeding.
I have to say Jack “drove the bus” tonight. Without him in the 4th quarter, this would of been a Wizards blowout. :(
And to the ATL we go….. Bosh has to get mad at the team, tell them to play with more passion!
Bosh should be mad at himself and lead by example. that what great players do right?
I didn’t watch the whole game, he did great. But I did catch near the end and he was the one that didn’t look like he wanted the win. maybe he was tired, blah blah. But did great players get tired when the game is on the line?
we need a better play than Bosh, he can’t be our best player. Otherwise we’ll just continue to remain on mediocrity.
Sorry for the Vent, it’s exhausting.
Why didn’t Bargnani see the ball AT ALL down the stretch? Well, actually he did once…and made the shot, of course. But no, let’s have Bosh and Hedo forcing shots against tough defenders instead of letting our best shooter shoot.. makes sense, right?
Thoughts on the pizza cheering? I was there, and I’m not sure whether it’s embarrassing or funny.
Gotta find something to cheer about…
Hedo likes his pizza
Right now, what else do Raptors fans have to cheer about? Cut the fans some slack. They deserve the free slice of pizza. ;)
and of course hedo makes his first shot of the final minutes when pizza, not the game, is on the line
the fans don’t deserve that free slice of pizza at all. they were as invisible in that 4th quarter as the raps’ defense. hedo’s last-second pizza heave elicited one of the loudest reactions of the game. despicable.
they should start giving out the free slice any time we hold an opponent under 100.
“they should start giving out the free slice any time we hold an opponent under 100″
This is one of the greatest posts I’ve read here. Pure genius.
Lakers do this.
That was a Turk & Bosh brick fest!!!
Why can’t Triano coach this team? I had such high hopes for the guy – now I can’t stand anything he does!
Agreed. PLEASE get Bargs some of Bosh’s shots….why is Bosh hoisting up 22 FGA’s when he’s not feeling it. Even most volume shooting guards don’t shoot that much let alone power forwards.
I actually envy the Nets and Knicks right now. At least they weren’t trying to win anything this year.
Knicks just beat the Suns tonight :)
That was an understatement. Knicks massacred the Suns tonight. 126-99
Still have lots of hope for a good Raps season – if they can find a coach!
Blaming Triano is too easy. Sure he’s accountable to a point, but I put most of the onus on the players & Colangelo. BC was trying to build a offensive juggernaut while totally neglecting the other side of the ball. :(
I gotta say, I don’t understand why you’re laying the blame on Triano. No coach is going to improve what is wrong with this team right now. You think Popovich would finally get Bargnani to rotate when he has to on defense, or box out? You think Riley would turn Turkoglu into a stopper? You think Phil Jackson would speed the Raptors roster so they can close out on shooters more quickly?
Blaming Triano is an excuse. As Lawrence Frank, Flip Saunders and Mike D’Antoni have shown so far, the coach can only do so much.
1. didn’t use timeouts on Wizards mini-runs
2. left Belli out there after taking 2 fade away jumpers and 2 nasty turnovers
3. didn’t look to get the ball to the 2 guys actually shooting well at the end of the game(Bargs and Jose)
-3 solid reasons right there why Triano deserves some blame
Oh shit!!! this is the Raps forum, I thought I was on the Clippers site…Sorry.
Baa-dum-bum.
Oh come on. That was uncalled for. The Clippers are a much better team than the Raps.
According to their record – Yes. Clippers are better than us. It is a different story that we think that we actually have a good team, that needs to “gel”, and “had a though schedule”. That’s why our record does not show how good we are. What a joke.
BTW – Clippers are 8-10 right now and are playing without Griffin.
They also played 5 games without Gordon, who is arguably their best player..
What’s wrong with this Raptor offensive lineup on the floor going to the end of the game?
Bosh
Bargs
Hedo
Jose & Jack
If you don’t know what’s wrong, you don’t know bball.
All I know is that “Mr. 4th Quarter” is detrimental to this offense come clutch time. Did we get a warranty on Hedo?
I think we should call running as fast as you can into group of people without attempting to jump or avoid them and blindly flinging the ball into the air a “Hedo”…
bosh was absolutely putrid on defense chucked at a horrendous rate and when it counted turned over the ball or shot bricks. bargs gets the blame on d in roll call? did we watch the same game?
To be fair, both Bargs and Bosh were terrible. Bosh was just bad in general and Bargs was once again getting killed on switches and gave no help Is this part of the scheme? Not the help, obviously he should play better help D, but the switches onto guys he is clearly gonna get killed by? I just don’t know if his D is awful because he’s a bad defender (he is bad, but is he as awful as its looked so far) or if he’s actually where he should be and the scheme just doesn’t work. On another note, I’ve been very impressed by Barg’s rebounding lately and this game was a good example of his improvement. So if he can learn to rebound, maybe he can learn D! And as was stated above why can’t they run some plays for hime in the fourth? He disappeared and while part of that is he probably wasn’t demaning the ball enough, forcing into Bosh and watching him get mauled in the post is not great strategy.
Bargs was decent on switches – what 7 footer are you thinking of will defend a guard better than Bargs. Guards drool at the chance of going one-on-one against a center.
yeah no kidding I thought the same thing when i read the roll call. Seriously we shouldnt be surprised because they always write the same thing about Bargs and lay all the blame on him.
.
I’m in agreement on this. I thought Bargs played a good game. But whatta I know …. apparently all 11 of his rebounds (4 Offensive) fell in his lap.
I think Andrea’s roll call is on the biased side – and it gets kind of tiring. I agree that Bargs needs to be more consistent (for us to win), but tonite was not one of those “off” nights. And as Dan said in his post, Bargnani stopped getting touches – after getting his 18th point with 2:12 left in the 3rd. From that point on, he made ONE MORE shot, and 2 more points.
The rest of the crew during that 14 minute stretch – 9 of 22.
Bosh: 1 of 6 (plus 2 made free throws).
Turk: 1 of 7 (plus 3 of 4 free throws).
One of our problems – besides defense – is that we somehow forget Andrea, WHEN HE’S HAVING A GOOD NIGHT SHOOTING. That’s what frustrates me with this team. Maybe our defense is too complicated for these lads, but putting the ball in AB’s hands can’t be that difficult. Bargnani was 8 of 13 (I don’t count that hail mary shot to end the 1st half) – wtf.
.
Yeah, it was ridiculous… being at the game, I find it’s easier to see what’s happening all over the court, and it looked like Bargs was pretty unassertive… but the blame should fall on everyone else too, since they completely ignored him.
Good teams automatically know to feed the hot hand… guys like Bosh need to realize that on some nights they aren’t the best option. He’s clearly our best player and carries this team on many nights, but Bargs would have been the best option in the 4th and he was looked off countless times. brutal to watch… I don’t boo but it was painful
I actually don’t think Bosh was bad on defense. Jamison was hitting EVERYTHING, even if Bosh had a hand in his face (which he often did). The biggest problem last night were the rotations, and that had little to do with Bosh (and more to do with Bargnani).
If you watched the game on TV you may remember how Leo was (wrongfully) criticizing AB for not ’switching’ when Hedo called for one, and it left Butler an opportunity for a drive and dunk. (hedo played lazy man defense there while BArgs was actually preventing his man from the ball and was in no position to switch… but kind of besides the point)
Who was watching that dunk from the other side of the net and NOT EVEN TRYING to prevent a bucket… yeah that would be our very own Chris Bosh. Didn’t take more than a step forward… didn’t try to block or foul Butler. Is that the same Bosh we are talking about? The one who watched others dunk during the Celtics, Bobcats and Phoenix game?
He may not have been in the best position to block the shot… he may have got dunked on for all I know… but not even attempting to stop a bucket late in the game while your team is down a few points is pathetic.
this…amen brotha.
and this stupid experiment of giving demar minutes needs to end. let him learn in practice and bide his time for a season or 2 before he starts. he should be getting his minutes in garbage time if any.
And play who in front of him? Wright? Belinelli? Guy in first row? You could make a case for Belinelli but that’s robbing Peter to pay Paul. You do need bench scoring in the NBA, I think Belinelli (when working right) can get his points on his own, I’m not sure DeRozan can do that without the help of others.
We could shake up the lines just because things aren’t working now period. That is the problem though: I can’t blame any one player for how poorly the team is doing. It is EVERYONE. So what is Triano supposed to do?
Is it realistic to ask a much older Rasho to start? Would starting Amir solve any problems? I wanted Wright to start a while ago, but since then he has been a complete non-factor.
I saw Golden State show zone against the Nuggets: zone can be picked apart by cutting wings just as easily as our system is picked apart by the extra pass to the open player who has been left alone by a helping defender. I honestly don’t know if there is a solution.
The hope always was whether the players could play better this year – whether Bargnani and Bosh could work together on defence and create some lane intimidation. Whether Calderon could keep his man in front if him (in all fairness, he is doing a better job of it lately, but he has been switching a lot and asked to guard 7 footers, so it is hard to assess), and whether Hedo could play passable D.
Things did not work out.
put away your corny peter to pay paul comment and be subjective. hell,id start weems over derozan hes horrible. but id go with bellinelli. this joke of starting derozan and he ends the game with 10 minutes is insulting. he turns the ball over and after mistakes tries to go one on one for fail. it makes no sense. he’s a rookie nobody expects rookies to start let him come in off the bench or in garbage time. ballhog bosh,bargs and turk aint giving him looks the kids getting frustrated. WHATS THE DAMN BIG DEAL,sit his ass?…oh yeah lets be corny and rob peter to pay paul?wtf?
Dude, after two shit games by Weems or Wright or Belinelli as a starter, you’d be the first one to want DeRozan back in the lineup just for the sake of making a change. Bottom line is that our SG options are not very good and no matter who you start, you’ll run into the same problem – inconsistency.
Exactly – even though all the players have changed, to this point our 2’s and 3’s are just as ineffectual as last season – we are way below average at those positions – Bosh and bargnani are the least of The Raps issues
Well said Arsenalist.
DeRozan is starting to piss me off, gets an alleyoop from Caldy then he just starts taking bad shots and turnovers, I think he had like 2 or 3, yeah he’s a rookie blah blah blah… We got a bench for a reason. I’m tired of this crap in the NBA drafting athletic guy who just can’t shoot worth of sh!t.. You’re paid millions to shoot a fken basket for god’s sake. Screw the alleyoops and start banging out some points. I’m pretty sure for every shot he’s made he’s gotten an air ball to go with it.. Yeah, everyone gets em, but come on, that’s just sad…
Sorry for the rant
last year wright was a starter on a winning team because he had a clear, consistent role. no doubt hes been playing poorly, but i still think he can be an asset if his job is properly defined. wright should start as a defensive specialist.
having derozan come off the bench is just as important. playing on a confused first unit against our opponents best lineup isnt helping his development at all. let derozan get some run against inferior players and boost his confidence in his ability.
Maybe it would help Wright to start – it’s just hard to start someone who’s been playing like crap.
LOL. That is all I’m going to say tonight, there is nothing that hasn’t been said about this team, am just gonna lay back and see what happens next.
The sad thing is, I agree with most of your comments (except FAQ’s of course).
I told myself that 8-12 was acceptable to start the year, so there’s still a chance goddamn it …
I had 7-13 to start.
I just didn’t think they’d get there with a 6 game losing streak!
“As disappointing as ordering a black coffee, but getting a double double.”
So you were expecting Andrea to rebound like defend like a black man but instead he got a double double?
Sorry doc, I thought his comment was funny… a little racy, but clever.
Silly me … I guess that comment was over my head. :|
Its hard to concentrate when your head is filled with visions of 5 barney the dinosours playing the Washington Wizzards. I was waiting for a group hug and hoping they would break out in song. The ds love Barney.
I was waiting for the toothpick man song after our franchise player got abused by Jamieson.
That 4th quarter was such garbage. I hate seeing Bosh with the ball in the 4th because he hasn’t delivered for so long. I wish Triano would at least try having an actual 2 in the game that knows how to move without the ball because Jack and Jose sitting in the corners scratching their asses sucks.
Revised Game Theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg3vdU-Y1wM
Raptors = Flaming Dragon
That was a humorous read….amidst the pall of the game. Wonder if BC’s high collar shirts are getting a little tighter each game. Did someone say we now start to play the weaker teams?
Breaking news: the Knicks stomped on the Suns tonight. Is Donaghey reffing again?
No “weaker teams” for us this season, that’s for sure.
Johnson:
———–
The first half he played his best half as a Raptor
He got 6 rebounds and the Wiz could not score in the paint to save their life when he was out there. He was +11 at one point in the first half. The Wiz finally gave up trying to score on the inside with him on the court and starting chucking up 3s. Unfortunately they hit a few of them.
In the second half Johnson did not appear to bring as much energy as in the first half but he was still a +1 in the second half. Near the end of the game he made a very nice stop on Jamison’s drive to the basket. Unfortunately none of the other Raptors and there were two there, could grab the rebound.
Johnson didn’t do much on offense as it did appear that he was just in the flow of the offense to where he could get the ball down low except on on occassion when he then took a hook shot but missed.
==============
I thought he also played a lot better in this game then he did last seaszon against the Wiz.
Overall I would rate his defense a B+ only because I think he did not bring as much energy in the second half.
I would rate his offense a weak C+ taking into account his 4 offensive rebounds.
One more thought here.
When Triano took Johnson out in the second quarter the Wiz immediately started to go down low on offense and as I recall their next 4 baskets in what seemed like 1 – 2 minutes at the most were all on the inside.
Johnson really needs to start developing his offensive game and Triano needs to start running a couple of plays for him per half.
Had the other Raptors played at even an average level during the fourth quarter, that Amir Johnson offensive rebound off the missed free throw would have been pretty damn big.
Can’t believe they turned the ball over almost 4 consecutive times (bad pass, stepped out of bounds, offensive 3 seconds, etc.); I think it might have been 4 turnovers in 5 offensive possesions. After the first 2, you’d think they’d realize the need to tighten things up a bit.
Right now, it’s pretty predictable who the Raptors go to for each late game possession. It’s always Bosh until he hits the wall, and then Turkoglu for the remainder of the game. I thought the benefit of having a playmaker up front was the various offensive looks. They have four talented players (at least on the offensive side) in Bosh, Bargnani, Turkoglu and Calderon — there’s no need to force the shot as they have every key possession. The key is ball movement, which often gets thrown out for no apparent reason.
Oh and Jack, when the team is on a roll, please don’t throw away all the momentum with a silly cross-court pass.
This is correct, that was the game. But he be driving the bus. 50 wins LOL.
This might be heresy but I have seen enough and just feel I need to comment on it.
I absolutely hate the way that the other four Raptors stand around like they are waiting at the bus stop, when the ball is passed into Bosh in the low post.
This leads to a hard double or triple team on Bosh and almost everytime he puts up a shot and/or is fouled. The problem here is as I see is that Bosh makes a lower percentages of these touches than he would if he did not have a hard double or triple team defending him.
Bosh also takes an unnecssary physical beating because there appears to be no pass option for Bosh out of the double or triple team. At least one or two of these guys should be cutting to the basket when Bosh is posted down low with the ball. Johnson is the one exception and will go down low in case Bosh misses the shot. The problem here with Johnson is that Bosh rarely if ever passes the ball to Johnson on his cuts to the basket when Bosh is double or triple teamed.
Even if Johnson was not succesful scoring more than 50% of the time on this it would start to make the defenses a little more honest and would reduce the hard double and triple teams that Bosh has to deal with. This would increase his effectiveness on the low post.
The Raptors other four guys on the court with Bosh have to keep moving with a purpose when Bosh is posted down low and not just stand around like they are waiting for a bus.
The other players can’t keep moving. They are positioned in that way so that Bosh has room to make his move in the post. The reason why he gets double or triple teamed is he tends to hold onto the ball too long. The defense then collapses on him. He then tries to get a foul(in the fourth they are not called that often) or attempt a hail mary shot.
He is not a clutch player and was irrelevant in the second half of the match. At the post game interview, triano was asked why Bargnani did not get a shot in the fourth quarter. He mentioned that washington had posted a player to defend Barg and that player stopped providing help defense. If that was the case why was Bosh and Hedo not more successful.
I do agree that Bosh holds the ball way too long on many of his post up situations. It just seems to me when watching this I get the sensation that Bosh is essentially playing 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 by design and the other Raptors including Johnson sometimes are taking a breather. There is no reason that they can’t be moving on the other side of the court cutting toward the basket or in the lane cutting toward basket and then out again if Bosh is still holding the ball. If nothing else one or two other Raptors should be moving to get into position to block out their man for the rebound in case Bosh misses his shot.
Most of the time Bosh posts up outside the lane to one side of it or the other and is only on one side of the court and in a very small area at that. There is absolutely no reason that one or two other Raptors players can’t cut through lane toward the basket, go backdoor or do something other than just stand around and wait for the bus.
Who in Toronto wants to stand around in the winter and wait for the bus if they can avoid it?
But will Bosh pass it especially if it is the 4th quarter (remember he wants to be the man)?
anyone else think this team would be better off with marion instead of turk?
Games were more fun to watch with Marion in the line up, that’s for sure. Much faster tempo + you’ve gotta love his shooting mechanics. Fun to watch guy.
“anyone else think this team would be better off with marion instead of turk?”
Umm……yes. However, I think that the reason Colangelo got Turk was because Marion and Ariza turned him down.
I remember driving in the car with my buddy and we were listening to the radio and heard a comment about how Turk’s agent wanted 10 mill/season (This is obviously before Turk signed with the Raps). I remember asking my friend “What idiot would sign Turkoglu for that amount” as I had read that Marion was probably gonna only get 8 and that both the salary cap and luxury tax were going down across the league.
Lo and behold, Colangelo is that idiot. I understand that he wanted to appease Bosh, but commit that type of money to that type of player? Fuck it, just let Bosh walk and use his money in 2010.
Agree except for your last bit. Let’s say we go back in time and let Portland sign Turkoglu. Aside from the restricted free agents (if even), none of the significant FAs really wanted to play for the Raptors, so we either 1) let Marion leave for nothing, or 2) find a sign and trade (e.g. for Jackson or another contract of similar size).
Assuming we exercise Weems’ team option and extend a qualifying offer to Jawai next off-season, we have about $39.2 mil locked up for 9 players (Calderon, Bargnani, Evans, Jack, Banks, Humphries, DeRozan, Jawai, Weems), more if we dealt Marion in a sign and trade (chance of getting an expiring contract is close to nil since everyone with expiring contracts are preparing for 2010) or re-signed Delfino to deal with our dearth of wings. No matter who the new wing player is, that’s got to be one of the worst cores in the league.
So Bosh leaves, and if the cap is set at $50 mil next year, we have $10-11 mil to spend on a moderate free agent if somehow we decide to stick with DeRozan and Weems as our only wings and don’t add any salary (improbable), ~$6 mil if we settle for Delfino, or ~$3 mil if we go for a sign and trade with Marion. So… what money are we using to sign what free agent?
Good points J.
I hadn’t done such exhaustive research.
If Bosh leaves as a free agent, we don’t have any free agent cap space?
Keep in mind that we do have the mid-level and bi-annual if we exceed the salary cap anyways.
It’s no problem. I constantly obsess about our budget so it’s easy for me (though it was a bit harder undoing the Turkoglu trade in my head since so many players moved since then). =D
If we let Bosh walk after this season, we’ll have anywhere from about $3 mil to about $6 mil depending on which salary cap figure from their projections they end up going with. A little more than that if we don’t keep Weems, but we’d also only have 8 players signed so the other 5-7 would have to come from the remaining cap space and whatever exceptions we have.
Regarding exceptions, we won’t have the bi-annual exception (BAE) for next year since we already used the BAE on Rasho this year (you can’t use it two years in a row). As for the mid-level exception (MLE), it’s a bit more complicated.
Say we’re $6 mil under the cap and the MLE is worth $5 mil next year — we’re considered under the cap, won’t have the MLE at our disposal (it can only be used if you’re over the cap), and will only have the $6 mil plus minimum contracts to spend on the remaining ~5-7 players. If we’re $3 mil under the cap and the MLE is worth $5 mil next year, then we’re considered over the cap unless we renounce our MLE. If we renounce, we only have the $3 mil plus minimum contracts available for FAs. If we don’t, we will only have the MLE and minimum contracts available and not the $3 mil we’re supposedly under the cap by.
Hope my explanation makes sense. Either way, barring a major trade (and if it happens, BC deserves major praise because we don’t exactly have leverage trading Bosh this season or during the off-season), the picture looks pretty bleak going into next season with Calderon, Jack, Banks, DeRozan, Belinelli, Turkoglu, Evans, Bargnani, maybe Weems, maybe Amir, a ~$5 mil player (or set of players, if we split it), and a bunch of minimum salary contracts.
I actually didn’t think Johnson was as bad as the roll call claimed he is. I know he had only two points, but he had 7 rebounds – in 21 minutes nonetheless, and the impressive part is four of those were offensive.
I think it is becoming fairly clear that Bryan Colangelo has no idea what a defensive player is all about.
When you look at centers, in the NBA, the first thing you want is good defense, not 3 pt shooting. I think Bryan failed Basketball 101, but his dad bailed him out with a silver spoon.
When we let go of Sam, the number one reason mentioned was that we lacked defense. Bryan conceded that Sam’s roster had its defensive flaws, and promised to address that in the off season.
So far, that fix, makes us the worst defensive team in the league. Surpassing Mitchel’s efforts by a wide margin.
I hate to say it, but our problem is at the top. Bryan and MG do not understand NBA ball.
I hate to repeat this, but at the start of the regular season, Smitch told the media: “This may not be an athletic team, but it’s basketball-wise!”
… and for saying that, Smitch sealed his fate with MLSE and BC .. trying to sell season tickets and then Smitch slags the team … uh uh ..!!!
So .. now … is the current edition of the Raptors either athletic or “basketball-wise”, or neither … and will Bosh want to invest the next 5-6 years of his bball career in Toronto …???!!!
Well we got our X’s and O’s.
The coach is so good at that, that he also added in a new symbol, the clipboard slam over the knee.
So we are losing because of Bargnani. We lost in the playoffs against the Nets and Magic because of Bargnani. We are not a good team because we are building around a player (Chris Bosh) that is not a franchise player. He is a good complimentary piece on a good team. He scores most of his points in the first half and becomes irrelevant when the defensive intensity goes up a notch. I am surprised that no one commented in the Raptors roll that two of of his points were the result of Amir Johnson’s hustle play. You mentioned that Bosh disappeared. A better word is like usual he choked in the 4th quarter and was abused by Jamieson on the defensive end. He took 22 shots for his 22 points. Last game he took 26 shots for his 30 points. If this trend continues, Raptors are going to go downhill.
The criticism on this board and the Toronto media is that barg is not consistent. Every year his stats have improved. His stats this year are ~50% FG, 40% 3PT, 90% FT, 1,2 BLK, 6.4 RB. People have been complaining he was not rebounding well. This year he has shown improvements. Now he is not rotating on defense. When he improves in that part, what will be the next complaint. Remember no one is claiming him to be a franchise player. He is being paid 6.5 million this year. When his contract kicks in next year he will get 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 million respectively. I think for 6.5 million, he is not a bad deal. Of course we are paying someone on the team 15.6 million to choke in the 4th quarter with no defensive capability except rebounding.
I agree with your post that Barg is a terrible defender. But Bosh is not any better. I lay the blame on the raptors management. Bynum, Dwight Howard and many of the other centres in the league had coaches to assist them in getting better. Why did the raptors not hire a coach. A small investment like that could pay huge dividends in the future.
About centres hoisitng 3-pts – you should also question the position of PF. PF stands for Power Forward. Nowitski can shoot from the three point line and go inside. Maybe you should tell the mavericks gm that he made a stupid move and that he should get another player who can play “POWER” forward.
“Bynum, Dwight Howard and many of the other centres in the league had coaches to assist them in getting better. Why did the raptors not hire a coach. A small investment like that could pay huge dividends in the future.”
Just curious but what other centers in the league have had their teams hire a coach just for them and have as a result improved? The Lakers hired Kareem, and the Magic hired Ewing, but Howard was already well on his way to stardom without Ewing.
It’s silly to look to Bynum and compare him to Bargnani. Ignoring that they’re two very different type of players, for Bynum’s first two years he wasn’t expected to step in and produce like a top pick, and I could argue that he only truly broke out this year (his fifth year), while this is Bargnani’s fourth. Comparing him to Howard is even sillier. Howard was a true #1 pick when he was selected. If Bargnani came out that year he might not even be a top 10 pick. About 70% of the top 10 picks in the 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007 and 2008 drafts are starters in the NBA (pretty even across the board too). Bargnani’s year, 2006, only has 4 and that’s if you count Il Mago.
If people stop expecting him to play like a top pick from the other years, they’ll be a lot less disappointed.
I never stated that I consider Bynum or Dwight Howard to be similar to Barg. I only referenced them because of the idea of a coach to help Barg.
Barg did not play the centre position in Italy. He played small forward. During the first two years as a raptors he played as a small forward. Last year he was a backup centre and midway became a starter. You expect someone who has never played the centre position and in one and half years he should become incredible. Both bynum and Dwight Howard played the centre position probably from high school. They still got coaches in the NBA to help them.
Maybe the coach may help Bosh to go from a terrible defender to a average one.
Okay, point taken, but I still don’t think Bargnani would be any different with a dedicated big man coach. Same with Bosh. He’s shown he can be a good defensive player at times, but not if he’s the main scoring threat on the team. I still think Bosh can lead a team deep into the playoffs with the right cast (not our current cast) as a offensively gifted PF with average to below-average defense, but if he’s to be perform on a high level defensively, that’s when he needs to not be the offensive focus.
If we don’t give it a chance we won’t know if it will work.
Not all players who were provided coaches have been successful. Michael Olowokandi and Kwame Brown are few that come to mind.
It is a small investment that may pay dividends for the future.
This entire post is an example of the 20-20 hindsight effect. Because Raps lose in last 4 minutes (and had a good shot) therefore they are all terrible and hopeless. We lost a close game against a team that is about at our level. Annoying, but… c’mon.
Basketball is about the last 4 minutes. Plenty of teams .400 teams take it to the last 4 minutes, only to bitch slapped off the pant leg of the winner.
No it ain’t. If it’s close in the last 4 minutes, it’s 50/50 who wins. Clutch players are pretty much a myth, says me. And also stats.
“Evans – Beginning to wonder if he isn’t going home every night and hitting himself with a hammer extending his time away from being with this squad.”
Hilarious!
He-he, agree. Super funny :)
Haywood and Jamison made our ‘Twin Turd Towers’ their bitch@s tonight!!!
How is that “WE are gonna protect the paint” and “WE are striving be the top 6 defense” plan working out for you JT??
And WTF is up with our coach claiming we don’t have enough time to practice and gel…wast that suppose to be taken care of during a FUCk@N month of games during the preseason?!?!
wake me up when iverson joins the club , what you think i am crazy? look it is crazy to think this bunch can win anything close to 50 games. iverson couldnt possibly make us worse , iverson calderon turk, bosh , bargs .. not to shabby. the defense isnt much improved but the raptors would begin to look less soft. you all saw how amare and nash was laughing it up when they “tested ” the raps to a hard foul on bosh … we are just another insignificant team if we do not do something
Actually, I’m probably one of the many that believe the team could be that much worse with Iverson. Think about it. He’s obviously not going to practice and will want to start. That only works when the game plan is “give the ball to Iverson and let him work his magic.” He’ll get some steals on defense, but I bet the defense will be even more confused than ever. And if he doesn’t get what he wants and the team loses a bunch (which it will), you can call the season because morale will be way down.
There’s a reason why not one of the other 28 teams aside from Memphis wanted his ass. MEMPHIS! It’s not like there’s 59 better starting guards than him. Not until Philly lost their starting PG did any team express interest in picking him up, and that’s only because people will actually go see Iverson playing his 2nd stint there (and it was either that or start Ivey or the rook). I honestly don’t think he’d receive the same reaction in Toronto.
This blame falls on the feet of Colangelo.
Why did he reup that piece of Bargnani? By Wins Produced (Dave Berri) Bargnani was the worst player in the WHOLE F’N LEAGUE a couple of years ago. What oh what did he do to deserve that contract? He had 2-3 good months in his career, why reward him like that.
Calderon was a risky reup too, because as we know, he is a pylon, but he was a supremely efficient pylon on the offensive end in years past. So much so that last year I believe his individual offensive rating was one of the best in the league. Of course, now that that is gone, he is exposed as a piece of shit.
I understand that Colangelo had to woo Bosh to make him want to stay and that Marion and Ariza had turned him down, but signing Hedo F’N Turkoglu to that contract? Why? That guy has never been more than average in his career.
I remember driving with my friend with both of us listening to the radio and hearing that Turk’s agent was trying to get 10 mil/season for him. I turned to my friend and asked “What idiot would give that guy 10/mill” especially since I had read that Marion (who is a better player and a MUCH better fit for this team) was only going to get 8 and that the salary cap and luxury tax was going to go down across the league.
Lo and behold, Colangelo is that idiot.
This Colangelo guy should read wages of wins (which was very Bearish on the Raptors this year).
How could this guy have a good team in Phoenix and be so inept in Toronto? Was daddy covering his ass in Phoenix?
Jesus Colangelo is overrated.
Phoenix is mostly Nash. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day.
Notice, that Phoenix had their share of defensive woes. Nash is a poor defender, but he makes up for it in the final minutes of games with superb decision making. Take him off that roster and they are not that good.
When Nash signed that contract, everyone felt BC overpaid. Even Cuban did not want to fork out that sort of dough.
You see BC does not sell his players on the merits of his clubs, he just throws a large sum of money out. This has always been the case. With Nash it worked. With others it hasn’t. He also signed Triano to three years, when no one was even interested in his services as a head coach.
Good points, all around.
I’m in no way shape or form a basketball expert, but even I – only a somewhat hardcore fan – knew that if Turk got 10, that would be crazy stupid.
Why does Colangelo have to be the one who is stupid?
Maybe it’s just that he assumes that fans in Toronto are not knowledgeable and will just buy the “We got Turk, he’s a high-priced fee agent” bullshit that the media would spread, and that would help sell tickets. Maybe he doesn’t care if this is a winner or loser as long as money is made, ’cause I don’t understand how somebody supposedly that good, can make such a bad decision.
This isn’t a reaction to one game from Hedo, his stats clearly indicate an average player.
Hedo Turkoglu career PER = 15.0
Average PER = 15.0
indeed BC has got to go
On the day he Brought in that worthless sac JO in town, I boldly stated that this trade will haunt us for a very very veeeery loooooooooong time!!!!!
what is up with him with handing out 50+ million contracts to any joe schmuck who plays a couple of months of decent ball…. and the guy likes to hand out our first round draft pics like pocket change to sweeten trades… Newsflash you idiot You flat-out SUCK as a GM without your daddy!!!!!!!!
FK THIS..I am done with this team until one or both of Barney and Hooser are shipped out of here
…you can basically conclude that he does not pay attention to defence. He never has. I don’t know why he expects his teamms to play good defense when he uses up all his duckets on players that don’t.
D to Bryan is only an afterthoght, he leaves a couple of mil to be devided up between the final, roster spots, who are supposed to be there to bring us D. Basically, his D guys are always 9-12 on the bench. That is not exactly how you build a defensive team.
This is the issue,
I believe that in basketball, defense wins championships. If memory serves, there has been some good research to back this up.
This leads me to think 2 things
1) He is just too stupid to understand this or too arrogant in that he thinks he can be a trend-breaker.
2) He knows that offense sells tickets. Fuck defense/the championship – late playoffs and good regular season attendance is alright.
If it’s the latter, than fuck him, I want a winner.
The criticism on this board and the Toronto media is that barg should have not got this contract. Why not? Every year his stats have improved. His stats this year are ~50% FG, 40% 3PT, 90% FT, 1,2 BLK, 6.4 RB.
Remember no one is claiming him to be a franchise player. He is being paid 6.5 million this year. When his contract kicks in next year he will get 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 million respectively. I think for 6.5 million, he is not a bad deal.
The thing that you and everyone should be worried about is that we will be paying someone 20 million to choke in the playoffs (Nets & Magic), irrelevant in the second half of games, cannot play against physical players, poor leadership skills and has not delivered anything during his stay as a raptor. We have tried so many combinations with Bosh. Jermaine O’Neal combo did not work. Bosh is not a max player or franchise player. We cannot build a great raptors team around him.
Remember both Zach Randolph and Elton brand are 20/10 players. Would you want them on your team?
Good points.
However I think Bosh has done pretty well this year.
PER = 27.5
Offensive Rating = 121
Defensive Rating = 114
Offensive win shares = 2.7
Defensive win shares = 0.1
I hear ya though about spending that much on this guy. We have already committed to Bargnani (although I would much rather have Bosh) so why not let Bosh walk and attempt to get a good shooting guard and a better defending big.
I wish we had Ariza or Gerald Wallace or somebody like that.
I was curious based upon your post so I checked out the Win Shares for Calderon, Jack, Wright, Belinelli and DeRozan.
All of them except for DeRozan have negative Defensive Win Shares. DeRozan is a zero.
That means that not one of the Raptors guards has a positive Win Share on defense.
As we all know defense begins at the guard positions and from what I have seen on the court and what the Negative Defensive Win Share numbers of the Raptors guards seems to substantiate, the Raptors guards are just not playing good defense. That I believe is the main reason that the Raptors are losing games.
Ya go fire BC and replace him with who? Another Rob Babcock? Or would you prefer David Khan who drafted two point guards in this years draft? Bargnani was a top 3 pick in the 2006 draft. And Brandon Roy wasn’t considered as a top 5 because he was red flagged for having knee problems. So you can’t say BC made a horrid pick in hindsight. Every one loved Calderon before he signed that big deal and calling for TJ’s head. So again, you are looking at everything from hindsight.
I don’t know who we would replace Colangelo with. Perhaps you could answer this question for me, was there a great demand to get Daryl Morey from a lot of teams, or did Houston simply steal him away from Boston? If they stole him away, it shows that talent can be found, if you look properly for it.
I agree with you that Bargs was a top 3 pick in the draft and you can’t fault Colangelo for selecting him where he did.
Of course you could always make the argument that Colangelo overvalued him and undervalued Roy, but we don’t know if Portland was that good or just lucky in their draft of Roy.
I’m not taking issue where Bargnani was picked, my issue was with the reup after 3 years of sub-par basketball playing.
And with the Hedo thing, it’s not hindsight, It was my opinion before I knew that the raptors would be signing him that he was asking for too much money.
the question is will the mlse renew bc’s contract? or will they again go cheap and make this italian dude gm or hire some crap?
not everyone liked calderon, from the start. i was never a big fan of him from the beginning. he is a very overrated player. he aint a quality starting point guard. his best role is a 3point shooter of the bench and a backup point guard, like a jason terry, eddie house, john paxon type of players. that’s why i was among the few who were disappointed on trading tj.
what i’m pissed of right now so far is the drafting of derozan. as the games pass by, he reminds me more and more of a joey graham/jamario moon. my preference in this year’s draft was a quality point guard and relegate caldereta back to the backup role. flynn, jennings, and lawson were my picks, and i really think we really missed out big on another brandon, although may be not that big compared to new york? lol
had we drafted jennings, who btw who i believe would also fit the system coz of his experience in europe, we would have a 2nd legit non-european star on this team. imagine a more potent lineup of bargs, bosh, turk, wright, jennings with caldy as the 6th man who could play the jaret jack role.
“Why did he reup that piece of Bargnani? By Wins Produced (Dave Berri) Bargnani was the worst player in the WHOLE F’N LEAGUE a couple of years ago. What oh what did he do to deserve that contract? He had 2-3 good months in his career, why reward him like that.”
Just to keep Dave Berri’s stat in perspective, last year Moon, Calderon and Parker were in the top 20 for most underrated, with Moon and Calderon in the top 15 the year before for most underrated as well. It’s a bit amusing considering all the complaints this year about Calderon, and the way Moon and Parker were viewed as the weakest starting 2/3 combination in the league.
Ironically, Gay was 2nd most overrated, ahead of Bargnani, last year, while Aldridge was 17th. Gay and Alridge were 3rd and 6th most overrated the year before.
As for Bargnani, he’s never going to have a good WP stat unless he rebounds better. More blocks, more assists and fewer low percentage shots (3 pointers) would help too. Having the lowest WP stat doesn’t mean he’s the worst player in the league. The WP stat is based on the assumption (I’m not saying it’s wrong, just that it’s a context that is pre-defined) that bigs have to produce a certain way, small forwards a certain way, and guards another certain way, and is normalized to reflect this. Unadjusted, bigs have the highest WPs, and guards have the lowest, with small forwards a bit higher than guards.
If you compare his unadjusted WP, he ranked as an average small forward his first year, and below average his second year. But since even sucky bigs like Patrick O’Bryant have higher rebounds/48 and higher FG%, there’s no way he can compete unless he shoots 50+% from the field, 45+% from 3, and rebounds at an average rate for a big. If he shoots worse than that (45 FG%/38 3PT% for example), he needs to make up for it with assists, steals, blocks, rebounds, trips to the free throw line, etc.
If we consider that he’s really a SF in a 7 foot body playing out of position, he’ll have a decent WP stat. If he wants a good WP stat, all he needs is a Boris Diaw or Chuck Hayes to be listed as the official 4 and Bosh as the official 5, and he’ll go from worst to one of the better ones. Yes, the stat is that fickle.
Oh, and one more thing. Here’s another way the stat is flawed: if you build a team with all big men in the starting lineup (e.g. Turkoglu at PG, Bargnani at SG, Bosh at SF, and two good defensive bigs at PF and C), and have smaller players sub in whenever necessary, Turkoglu, Bargnani and Bosh are going to have great WPs, the two bigs will have decent WPs, and Berri’s win calculator will predict a 50-60+ win season for the Raptors.
This team just can’t rise above mediocrity. How’s a passionate (but not hardcore) fan supposed to stay interested? Depressing.
fuck this team is depressing, bargs and bosh together will never work and bosh as a leader is fucked up, I mean leaders are suppose to lead by example right, what pussy goes down in the ground and not get back up and faces the person, I mean I understand the pierce incident (those other fuckin pussies didnt show up for his help) but when he got pushed down to the ground by amare, and didnt react back, that pissed me off, he is suppose to be the one that make guys like that 7-foot useless barshitty act like man, but somehow I doubt if he is even a man himself.
and I disagree with Derozan keeping his starting spot, the kid is getting raped every single night, at least if we start wright he can establish his defence early on, plus he doesnt have to act like he’s a ball handler or something, I mean this guy is a fucking turnover machine,
i’m starting to think that the raptors and colangelo missed out again on another guy named brandon.
And 5 other teams!
You think the draft is easy?
jennings, roy, iggy, granger…the ‘what if’ games melt my brain. that said, im not ready to jump ship on derozan yet – if we play it right this could be his team in 3 years
Had the Wolves not picked two guards and Flynn was still available at the 10th pick, Milwaukee (and a bunch of other teams) would have missed out on Jennings too!
Every time Amir got run he hustled and got CLUTCH boards. I disagree with his assessment.
I hope most of you are starting to realize the mediocrity that is Turkoglu. Good player .. sure. Capable of a great night and clutch performance every now and again .. most definitely. Worth 50+ million over 5 years .. good lord no.
Hedo, Calderon and Bargnani are such an awful fit next to each other, it really doesn’t matter who is added to this ‘core’ when Bosh is gone. This is it for the next half decade.
Turkoglu has played some outstanding ball against the best SF in the league.
Check out the Magic’s top 10 highlights from last year.
It looks like Turk is still being slowed down by a bad leg right now.
Or, instead of checking out a youtube highlight package, we can look at who he is as a player and how his particular skillset fits in with a team like the Raptors, which many projected to be less than ideal in the summer (and which has proven to be less than ideal at this point in the season).
He is 30 old now and it’s not going to get any better. I cannot even imagine Hedo playing at 34 or 35.
The flaw is not what is surrounding Bosh. The flaw is that you cannot build a great team around Bosh. He is not a franchise or max player. He has never come through in the clutch.
We have tried so many combinations with Bosh. None have worked and none will if he is the center piece. He is a complimentary piece on a good team. He would be a good second banana to a true franchise player such as Wade, Lebron or Kobe.
This team is toast. YOu can see it in the body language. And especially in the lack of intensity..If I was the coach I would immediately institute a no dunk policy–that means if a guy is close enought to prevent a slam- do it…hard…The guys are playing for stats. and not using the fouls allowed.
Time to trade Bosh. He is double double with loser attitude.
Fairweather fan that I am, I am getting bored with the Raps again. Just not worth getting upset or angry with a team that feels no passion or will for the game. Why do I want to follow this team?
That said, probably my last comment for awhile if not the season. The Raps are headed for mediocrity this season again. Glad I don’t waste money to buy tickets which help to pay for these outrageous salaries (JC, Jack, Hedo, Bargs, Banks, Evans) to players that aren’t in game shape mentally, physically, or emotionally. If they had a shred of pride, they would refund their pay back to the fans.
Signing out.
trade Jose for a legit starting SG
sign Iverson to start as a guard
Have Iverson/Hedo and new SG share PG offensive duties
Have Iverson guard PG’s
Atleast he brings heart and drama and would make this team “watchable”
Poll – who on this site is not a better GM than Bryan Colangelo?
Trade Bosh, while we can get some value, and see what we do with what comes back. Whether it’s a really good 2, or another post player, or Maybe include Jose and look for a pg too. I actually, think, and this is going to sound crazy, that when Reggie comes back, we would be a better team if we did not have Bosh. yes, he gets points and rebounds. But as long as we can cover for the loss of rebounds and improve defense, I don’t think our offense would struggle as much as people think. It’s not Bosh’s ability but his mentality. he thinks this team is serving him. He’s more concerned with breaking out of a bad shooting night and putting points up than winning and I suspect once the introvert is no longer the supposed leader, natural leaders like Jack will step up and then team will come together, and learn to lean on each other. Either way, even if I’m totally wrong, its better to lose Bosh and suck, than pay 20 mil to keep him and suck slightly less.
Banks isn’t as bad as he seems. Why not add him for 8-10 mins next game. Anything is better than what we have at the moment. A four game skid is going to be hard to stop against the Hawks, but anything is possible.
Speaking of Hawks, I really like what they did. Bunch of young athletic guys without super-star on the team (Joe Johnson, maybe). They sucked for a long time, but they invested into development of young guys. Whoever is their GM obviously did good job recognizing potential.
What we have is bunch of overpaid under-performers, thanks to our genius GM. How do you get out of this mess?
Rebuild, however that can be done. Atleast two of Jose, Turk, and Bargnani have got to go. Gut the team in the process if you have to, because this defensively challenged trio isn’t taking this team anywhere. It’s a fact of life.
It’s hard to grasp how many chances this organization had to build a real team around Bosh to complement his very unique skillset. What’s worse is the amount of draft picks that were given away to get to the position we find ourselves today.
Really agree with you that Rasho would have been big tonight. Should have had him out there with Bosh or Bargnani (rest one of the two) in the 3rd and start of the 4th quarter. Haywood is the kind of big/immobile body that Rasho can handle on the glass, score a few points on, and provide excellent help defence (driving/board-crashing Jamison) while taking the pressure off of Bosh or Bargnani. Jay needed to make this move and he did not.