First, let’s see two instances of Andrea Bargnani’s rebounding, in transition and in the half-court:
Next, we’ll ask a question of Turkoglu:
The post-game report and Roll Call have more.
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Rap of the Day
I can easily see myself being the type of person who is drawn to watching over the carnage of a traffic accident, but even worse, while watching the Raps against GSW tonight, I found that I was rooting for the accident. I read somewhere that they have now lost 12 third quarters in a row now, and I was rooting for it. I don't dislike Triano, but I enjoyed the look of panic in his eyes during the third quarter. I like Bosh, but I enjoyed looking forward to his next turnover. I found it comical that Jose gave his best performance of the season on a game where he couldn't possibly make a difference. And the son of the all-time nicest Raptor twisted the dagger, making it all so poetic. I'm going slightly mad, but I'm enjoying it.
60 Raps
The Hedo video: they are actually doing the “protecting the house” zone defense, which at many times done with our players will fail against All-Stars and 3pt shooters. This is just terrible communication, if you are zone covering like that, loud communication would of prevented that, especially in the empty Time Warner building, but Hedo and all the other guys are not communicating at all (you can totally tell). Plus this is just our Euro players losing track of whom the hell they are guarding….
Bargs rebounding, as subpar as it is, is getting better. However, more so to the point, we got Bargs to score, not to be our man on the glass or a lock-down defender. I can take any one of the raps, highlight the weakest aspect of their game and say “why cant they do that better”. Just like we got Reggie Evans to bang bodies and c*ck punch Chris Kaman. We’re not going to judge him on his offensive stats.
The problem with the raps is not bargs cant rebound or defend, its that no one can rebound or defend. At least you get offensive production and a high field goal % from Andrea.
I enjoy your work. Keep it up.
I would raise the question of how much of that is due to Johnson playing with him.
1. Opponents generally shoot at a lower percentage when Johnson is on the court so that will lead to more rebounds
2. Johnson tips a lot of the missed shots to Bargnani so Bargnani gets the rebound. (I have thought for a long time that the guy who taps a rebound directly to a teammate for a rebound shout get what could be called an “rebound assist”
For example it would interesting to see how a teams defensive rebounds are broken out between “direct rebounds” and “rebound assists” and wha a player;s “rebound assist” percent/rate was compared to other players.
someone correct me if i’m wrong, but i thought that a ‘controlled tip’ rebound was credited to the player who did the tipping, not the recipient of the tip.
We have Bargs to score not rebound and defend? No one on the team can rebound or defend?
I like Barg’s and he should continue to improve as he gets older but enough with the excuses. He plays center and he’s here for more than scoring otherwise they shouldn’t have paid him the money they did. I’m not looking to criticize him cause they all have things they can improve upon, but if he has weaknesses he should be trying to improve on his ALL AROUND game.
No one wants to be a one trick pony and no player or coach wants a teammate that can only be trusted to score and not defend or rebound.
Give me a break with all the apologies.
The second Bargnani play tells you all about him. Can’t even box-out if its the only thing he’s asked to do. As Arse said, Johnson was giving help, Turk was defending the ball, all Bargs has to do is not let his cover get the offensive rebound. He’s happy playing offense, just dont ask him to break a sweat on D. Poor, very poor.
Not a Triano fan but how do you blame him for that?
Easy… teach him how to Box out… pound it into his brain. Make him run suicides every time he misses a box out. Nothing at practice but boxing out. Something along those lines.
If I can teach a dog that doesnt understand human language to sit, speak, roll-over, stay, attack or bark. Triano can teach a human being to box out.
how novel…i’m sure they haven’t thought of that approach yet.
after 3+ seasons in the NBA, and a few pro seasons in europe, if one doesn’t understand the concept of boxing out by now, he never will. i don’t buy for a second that he doesn’t know how, or that it’s ‘new’ to him (BULLSHIT! anyone – ANYONE – who has played ball at ANY level has been expoused to the phenomenon of boxing out). i think it’s simple, and have mentioned it before – he sees himself as an offensive player, and that hard-nose D & effort-filled rebounding, while nice in spurts, is something best left to those ‘other guys’…you know, the ones who aren’t as offensively gifted. i don’t blame him for feeling this way, he’s been rewarded for this mindset from day uno.
i’m not sure what amazes me more…the # of defenders bargs has with respect to this aspect of his game, or the fact that he’s soooo inconsistent with his effort on that end. y’see, we KNOW it’s bullshit that he’s never gonna be a good rebounder, because we’ve seen him do it. it’s what makes him maddening to watch…he’ll be focused & bring it one game, and disappear the next. and that’s the straw that broke the camel’s back for me…when it’s not ‘happening’ for him offensively, he takes himself out the game in other areas. i know if my shot’s not falling, i better be busting ass to help my team on D or on the boards or SOMETHING. but i’m not just gonna take up space, waiting for someone to give me the ball so i can fire up yet another 25-footer.
He can understand the concept of boxing-out if is communicated in a manner he either can or is forced to understand. Its just a matter of how to get through to him (now how to achieve that is another question).
The concept of you cant teach old dogs new tricks applies solely to old dogs and people unwilling to learn. Bargs is not an old dog and does not seem to me to be a player unwilling to learn (we can see his progress over the years as evidence to that). Triano just needs to find a method or manner that he understands.
I dont think Bargs will ever be a dominate rebounder or defender…. but there is nothing about his attitude or abilities that convinces me he cant do atleast a solid job with either.
i think you missed my point. THERE IS NOTHING LEFT FOR HIM TO LEARN. at this point, it’s simply effort, of that i’m convinced. he’s shown that he knows HOW to rebound, HOW to box-out, HOW to defend…the fact that he DOESN’T isn’t a matter of him not understanding HOW, but a matter of him NOT WANTING TO PUT IN THE EFFORT TO DO SO…at least consistently
i know, i know, he’s gifted offensively, he wasn’t ‘brought here’ to be a defensive stopper or a beast on the boards. i understand that. but the simple facts are that he CAN do it, he HAS done it, he just CHOOSES not to on a consistent level. that’s the problem, and that’s what needs to be drilled into him…not the ‘how’ to go about doing it, but the understanding that it’s part of his fucking job to put in at least an effort each & every game. the day we can confidently say that he’s turned the corner & brings it on D & on the boards to the best of his ability game-in & game-out will be the day that no one will be able to complain about his lack of touches, ’cause if he puts in that kind of effort defensively, his teammates will reward him with touches.
i know it may seem rudimentary, but it’s still a game. when you play pick-up, and you have a great shooter as a teammate – but that’s ALL he does…no D, no rebounding, no passing – do you look to get him the ball whenever he’s open? fuck no. why? cause he hasn’t EARNED it. touches & offensive opportunities are a reward, they shouldn’t be required in order to cajole effort out of somebody.
and I think you missed my point…. there is ALWAYS SOMETHING LEFT TO LEARN. Everyone can be taught to improve if the teacher has the capability.
If Bargs had, say an AI attitude I would completely agree with you. However he doesnt… he can still be taught, convinced, etc. to box out.
well duh, though i think at this point, it’s not so much ‘learning’ as expanding/improving on already known/learned things. you can’t claim he needs to ‘learn’ how to box-out, since he plainly knows how to do it. he does need to improve at it, i’ll grant that, but the key – the absolute key – is developing the will to put in the work. at a certain point, all that’s learned can be thrown out the window, and it comes down to weather someone wants it enough. you can’t sit there & tell me that bargnani, right now, WANTS IT. and wanting it can’t be taught or learned, it’s something that comes from within.
I agree that a coach can teach a player the techniques of doing proper box outs.
However and this is big however.
1. Rebounding is first and foremost about effort. The deire to just go get it. The attitude that ever missed shot is mine to rebound. You can’t teach the desire to do this. You also in my opinion can’t teach someone the desire to box out. The desire to go the proper position for a shot before his opponent does. In other words, you can’t teach a sense of urgency nor quickness and the desire to naturally act on it.
2. Yes a caoch can teach the techniques on boxing out, but they can’t teach the basketball instinct to be able to know where to go on the court to box out at the time that the ball is released.
That is the second great rule of rebounding. Some guys have that shall we say navigational instinct on where to position themselves for a shot and so therefore get to the spot naturally and more quickly than an opponent who was taught the technique is not responding instinctually so therefore responds more slowly.
ugh. i’m sick of this bargnani back and forth. he’s no better than troy murphy for crying out loud. he’s totally undeserving of starting, i dont care how many points he can put up… he’s not reliable, he coasts down the floor, he shows no passion. how long is the toronto media gonna let this guy off the hook?
i realize colangelo has to feature him because bargs basically his signature on this team but man, it hurts me everytime i see him play.
this team has lots of interesting pieces (wright, evans, johnson, bosh, belinelli) but really, we lack a tested coach, our center position is a joke and our media refuses (or maybe is just incable of doing it) to provide an objective view of this team to fans.
all i want at this point is a national game with the american national broadcast team (matt devlin and rautins/armstrong are just TERRIBLE) to call one game so we can get a clear idea of an astute evaluation of our team.
is that too much ask? yes, apparently it is.
I believe one of the ESPN games tomorrow was changed because of fan interest and action on that interest.
The Bucks – Thunder game tommorrow is the game that they will be showing. This was not the originally planned game. So ESPN will change games if there is enough fan clamor for it. They want the games that people are clmouring for because that game will generate a higher viewship than the one that shows a lower fan interest and is therefore replaceable.
So Raps fans could get on the horn sort of to speak and contact ESPN demanding that a specific Raps game is switched into the ESPN game schdule. If enough fans act on this it could happen
Don’t insult Troy Murphy, He is a good example of a big man who plays outside who still averages over 9 rebounds per game. The sooner people realize that Bargnani is more like a Channing Frye (a good role playing centre who will never be a superstar) rather than like a Dirk Nowitzki the sooner they will stop being disappointed. Bargnani would be a great fit for a lot of teams but not the Raptors, not with the current lineup anyway.
He should be used more like Belinelli is, if his shot is on keep him playing if not sit him down.
I would say don’t trade him just yet, give Amir more of his minutes (he deserves them anyway)and maybe that will light the fire under his arse to want to put in more of an effort.
I hope the Raptors lose every f#cking game left. It’s fun listening to all you whiny f#cking bitches second guess every player, BC ,JT , MI and every coaching decision like you’re all a bunch of f#cking geniouses. If you had f#cking lives, you could watch the game, be disappointed and go on your merry f#cking way…sadly that is not the case. I bet you wish they had the dislike button again…losers!
nice spelling of genius, genious.
and way to not come across whiny or anything…that was good!
chuck, I made a spelling mistake, sue me. If it is whiny, I don’t see the problem, so is everything else.
First video is two great examples of Bargs not boxing out. Plain and simple. If he puts his arms out… ass back… both those rebounds are his.
Video #2 Hedo leaves Wallace to cover Bargs man, as Bargs stepped down to play either a zone defense (or a weak double team) on Jackson. Hedo was not drifting… you just cant see the player on the TV screen.
Next can we get the video of all the dunks and lay-ups Wallace was allowed while Bosh was watching in the key. Then we can talk effort.
ok, so hedo’s excuse is he left his man open on the baseline, as he drifted to the middle of the key, to cover a guy who is so far away from the basket you cant even see him on the tv screen?!?
its not an excuse for Hedo. I never said he made the right choice.
nobody in the media would ever doubt the face of the franchise
I cant figure out what Bargnani was doing on that play. Im just as confused…anyone?
I’m sure there could be a few examples of Bosh not making the plays you’d like him to make but why would he foul out trying to stop the endless parade to the rim?
This is a team game, but I’m 100% certain that if you analyzed every defensive possesion between Bosh, Barg’s and Hedo (the front court) you would see more non-box outs, blown coverages, and poor or no rotations coming from Bargs and Hedo.
It’s not about Bosh vs. Bargs but don’t get upset when players don’t execute the basics and it’s clear as day.
You want to try and show video of Bosh allowing Wallace to dunk, but who did Wallace get by first to begin with?
The team effort on the defensive end is lacking.
Well, that was the crappiest game I’ve seen in a long time… is it just me or does Bargs look and act as if he’s on Magic mushrooms. A heavy dose at times. Wake up man! Stop dreaming!! Somebody needs to kick him in the ass, and hard!
Smitch tried.. didn’t work.
Hedo rotated to cover the perimeter, because the previous defender had rotated to help stop a penetrating drive, Calderon went from being between a big guy & the basket to being behind a big guy & the basket, and Bosh was left to defend a two-on-one. That one was on Calderon, and the guy giving up the penetrating drive from the right.
By the way, I think that the defender was DeRozan & that was Bargnani sliding over to help him.
As for Bargnani, I’m starting to think that he’ll never be a starter on a championship team. Sorry, Bryan, but the evidense is mounting against you …
Not sure if he is fit to be a starter on any decent NBA team.
Bargs made his reputation on lofting 3 point shots, some fancy passing and occasionally driving to the basket … nothing more … so you shouldn’t expect him to be an effective rebounder. Maybe Evans will be the rebounder you pine for … and Bargs the outside 3 point threat.
Hedo’s movement on defence was just an error on his part, and you shouldn’t blow it all out of proportion. Everybody who has played bball at a higher level has made goofs and learned from it. Hedo made the decision to position himself at the foul line for some reason, and he will have to explain to the coaching staff what was going through his mind at that time.
To me, it looked like the whole Raps team ran out of gas and their collective brains went down the crapper … mental fatigue ???
Hedo re-positioned himself to cover the kickout from Jackson after the double team by Bargnani. Diaw was in 15-18 feet of open space if Hedo hadn’t stepped out.
The responsibility for Gerald Wallace was between Jose and Bosh but Jose wasn’t paying attention, easy cut, no communication, Bosh doesn’t notice until it’s too late, easy dunk. Jose was only concerned with his own man instead of team defense. The Raptors should have been playing something resembling a zone defense (Jose playing man-to-man, little difference for Bosh since he was so close to the rim + so was Chandler) on the weakside of the floor to stop an easy shot after one pass.
The breakdown defensively after the double team was Jose’s fault.
Bosh had just as much responsibility in that as Jose. Im not convinced that the PG covering a 6 ft 7 athletic freak, and thereby leaving his man open which everyone is so quick to criticize him for, would have made any difference on that play.
Bosh turned his head to the ball prior to the pass and had his back to Wallace the entire time.
Bargs weak double team started it… Hedo leaving his man continued it… Bosh not paying attention finished it. It was just poor team defense.
I don’t doubt any of that but what is the NEED to play such a scheme. Why do we need to switch on these matchups when they’re not posing any threat. What did Gerald Wallace and Jackson do on that play to even incite a switch between Hedo and Calderon? Nothing, they just stood there and the sea parted for Wallace.
i have no idea why triano wants to come with the 2ble team so much. Let them play man-to-man. Maybe then they will take some pride in their D. No one wants to be singled out as the player who let their man go off for 30 points on him. Besides we are not quick enough with Hedo and Bargs to be running across the court trying to shift to the open man.
Just wanted to say that I think this post and thread is incredibly typical of Toronto sports fans. (What is the value of this analysis? If you watched the game, most would have seen many examples of players (not just Bargs) doing the same thing.) I totally agree that last night was a stinker, they played like crap and got pasted…
*Newsflash* that happens from time to time.
All players have strengths and weaknesses. If your issue is with Barg’s rebounding effort, the obvious counter point to this is the effort and more recent results he has posted. A specific example of rebouding effort is the key offensive rebound against Indiana. There are also more examples of him getting rebounds that he has to work/fight for. For more evidence see back double doubles, and career highs set in rebounds. It is obvious, that he is making a concious effort to rebound better (most of the time, no one’s perfect.)
Also, as mentioned by others above, he was brought in for his scoring, and offensive skill sets. In his time here, he has improved other facets of his game, and continues to do so. (note: his rebouding has improved year over year, and month over month this season)
I also concede that there is still work to be done, and that he will never be an elite rebounder, but killing the guy every time he has a blatent error doesn’t prove anything, except that you are a fickle Toronto sports fan.
While I respect the time put into this site, and this specific analysis, I do not see the value of this kind of post. A good example of what is a valueable video breakdown see the work on clipperblog –> http://clipperblog.com/category/videos/
I have to honestly say, that I read much less of the content, and visit the site less frequently because it has slowly taken on a very negative spin, and I can get that particuarl spin from just about any major american media outlet!
This team is on pace to have the worst defensive efficiency in the NBA, not just this year…in the history of the NBA. Just digest that for a second. I see a lot of value in exposing a small sample of the kind of play and attitude that this team exhibits on a consistent nightly basis. There is no agenda here. This is a really, really bad defensive team and we’re trying to figure out who or what is the reason behind it.
Wouldn’t you want to know? How do you spin “worst ever”? It is what it is.
Point taken. No rebuttal other than to say I am fully on board with harping on the defense like mad if there is no imporbement in the next 5-10 games.
Only 16 games gone, 66 to go, 9 new players, expect improvement in defensive game in the future, or else changes by BC.
read less doug smith. he preaches that mantra all season. ‘it’s only 30 games into the season…geez, give it some time.’ ‘it’s only 60 games into the season….’
Yeah… The time to start winning is now.
A win in October counts the same as a win in April.
.
Bargs needs some educating from a Defensive Specialist – he can score (can’t teach that), but there are times when he looks lost out there. Then again, there are times when a lot of Raptors look lost on Defense. Is someone showing Andrea these videos?
As for Defense, is it a matter of time, and adapting? The preseason was not an ideal training ground, so it appears that the first 15 – 20 games are about finding that Defensive groove. Not that we’ll be powerful on Defense, but since our Offense is at a peak, it only makes sense to find a Defensive scheme that gels with the players. Enough so we can have a moderate ability (there), to go along with our top-notch offense.
That would suffice with me.
I also wanted to respond to something sleepz said this morning in respect to a post of mine:
“I like Andrea but why when anyone tries to compare him to Bosh, and really whats the point of that … ”
Bosh is our #1 option, while AB is #2.
Bosh is better then Bargs – I have yet to hear a sane person argue otherwise.
Bosh will be making 19 – 22 million next year. Bargs, 8 million.
Bosh needs to be way better than Bargs to justify that. Which is probably why everyone expects so much more – and why we’re disappointed when Chris’s numbers were not much better than Andrea’s (against Charlotte).
That’s the point …. sleepz.
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The only thing worse than Bargnani’s rebounding is the production values of your video analysis. Shaky camera, parallax camera angles. Monotone stuttering. “..uh, ah, I think, ah…”.
You wouldn’t post a blog entry that didn’t at least make an effort to have proper spelling, grammar and punctuation. This excruciating video is the equivalent of writing a blog entry in SMS TXT. (i.e. “vid: AB’s f-ert & a ? for turk”.
Get a tripod, square up the camera to the screen, get a laser-pointer, script out the dialogue and practice it a couple of times.
Nobody put a gun to you head and asked you to visit the site. You don’t like it, TOO Fucking Bad!!! Don’t visit here. Rest of us here value the effort that these guys are putting into this site and enjoy it.
Lets make a poll on here and see how many true fans rather have this video analysis with the current quality than NOT having anything at all.
It makes no sense to be critical of Rap’s individuals in a game where no-one played remotely to their individual, or teamwork capabilities.
It was just a STINKER, poor effort and execution by Toronto, and OUTSTANDING defensive effort by a well rested, and improved, with the addition of Jackson, Charlotte.
13 steals of 18 Toronto turnovers,scoring 29 pts off of, and 16 blocks of Toronto shots by Chandler, et all, had more to do with Cats effort than Raps lack of.
I came up what I think are the six most important rules to defending in basketball. Feel free to offer a comment.
1. Always stay between your player that you are guarding and the basket
2. To the extent possible keep the player that you guarding off of their sweet shooting spots.
3. Play defense with your feet and not with your hands.
4. Always close out your shooter without fouling them.
5. Verbally communicate with your teammates on the court when playing defense.
6. Do not allow second chance opportunities after missed shots by your opponent.
If players on a team can successfully execute those five things for 48 minutes a game while on defense the team will be good defensively
Wow. Painful to watch. Actually glad I wasn’t able to catch the game last night.
I will still wait after the 25th game before making some generalizations, but I guess what they are experiencing is just normal; it’s an outcome of a body trying to attain equilibrium state.
Simply, Toronto is not used to regularly playing good (brilliant) basketball that to accomplish one the team has to really exert a lot of effort/physical energy. And after the good game and euphoria, the body has to compensate to achieve the equilibrium state and that will be manifested by physical and mental fatigue. This physical/mental swing is quite wide if one is new to the activity (An example is when a person is learning to ride a bike, remember how wobbly it is at first! Then with experience it becomes effortless to maintain a straight and balanced ride)
What I am implying is that Raptors will experience more of this early in the season, they should learn and deal with it, get used to playing really hard with a play to win mentality and eventually they’ll narrow the equilibrium width (they will be less physically/mentally affected with the newly achieved normal, I hope). Of course, I’m assuming that becoming a playoff team is the objective and not just for a mere Canadian presence in the league that can maintain respectable ACC attendance!
Nice informative video though – keep it up please!
And as for me, it’s still OK to lose 8 of the next 10 games. Go Raps Go.
Arsenalist, I do expect RR to come up with other video later in the season.
Its too easy to make shots like that now.
And please be fair, and give a look to Jose & CB4 defense or kind of.
Of course, thanks for having faith and using common sense, unlike dave9t5 who couldn’t resist passing up the chance of being a dick by stating the obvious.
Most of the transition points came off of 13 steals mostly from Jose/Jack/Belinelli – can’t blame anyone for not getting back in time to defend those ones.
Unless you’re expecting Bargs to anticipate Jose coughing up the ball and running back to defend while Jose is going the other way!
That game was a stinker.
Bury it right beside Jay Triano’s line-up decisions on the night.
I’m just not getting it. While the defensive lapses you point out in the above videos are pretty obvious I am still puzzled as to why you would single out Bargnani and Hedo. I just watched the game again to see if maybe I was blind the first time and just about every Raptor was pretty poor at the defensive end and I would say Bosh and Jose were the worst. On the offensive side the only players that had it going good were Amir and Bargs and of course like usual Bargs never saw the ball again after he finished the half with 15 points and was the only player to shoot a good percentage. He also went to the bench again with the Raps down by only nine and Bosh, Jose et al let the game completely slip away. Bosh of course tried his usual array of forced shots that have no chance but this time against a better squad didn’t get all the bs calls he usually gets so unfortunately they counted as missed shots instead of trips to the line without a missed shot stat. Jose showed the rest of the team how easy it is to turn the ball over and by then the game was over.
I get the ragging on Bargnani to play harder because he should but he’s far from the reason this team stinks. It starts with Bosh and Jose as they lead this team and they need to drive the bus, and unfortunately they are both rotten drivers. Anybody wanting to give Bosh max money is out of their minds.
I think, because of his youth, most people are hoping that Andrea can improve his game for our future.
Maybe that is why they have the expectation that they have. Bosh may be gone, Jose is only going to get old.
Arsenalist,
The video breakdowns are great. Love them. Keep them coming.
Well Arse, it did not take you long to crucify Barg. He plays terrible defense and because of him we lost. Thats what you want us to believe. In psychology we call it a defensive mechanism. Divert the attention from…well you know who.
What happened to our franchise player the last two games. When it becomes physical, our Bosh disappear. You should also look at your tapes again. The biggest push from Charlotte came when Amir and Bosh your two studs were playing and could not defend anyone.
Can’t wait to see the franchise stud muffin go up against Boston. LOL…LOL.
That game was the kind of thing that got Sam Mitchell fired.
It’s a heck of a lot easier to fire a low-paid first-time coach than it is to change the on-court personnel.
Firing Triano and replacing him with another low-paid first-timer, or Iavaroni, who lost a lot of games in Memphis, would be a lot easier than dumping key players like Calderon and Bargs.
If Triano can’t get it done I expect that to happen.
Coaches aren’t fired for single games, at least not by smart GMs. And replacing one first time coach with another rarely makes any difference, unless, like the lottery, you sudden;y stumble upon Phil Jackson or Pat Riley, but even they aren’t miracle workers. They’ll still be stuck with players who are poor defenders and a front line with only one guy who can consistently rebound. I fail to see how changing coaches is going to help the core problems that face the Raptors, none of which have to do with coaching.
And sometimes the way to improve a team is not always the easiest way. Bad teams change coaches all the time, but it’s not until they get the right personnel that they improve. Larry Brown is a great coach, but without good players, Charlotte still can’t make the playoffs.
I still think patience is the best thing and while it was an awful, horrible game, it was still one game. mean, did anyone expect them to have a better record at this point in the season? Certainly not me, and I’ve always been fairly hopeful about the season.
What’s even more annoying is that just before wallace cuts, Hedo decides to move to the free throw line, where he is six feet away from any bobcat.
I don’t see how you can blame Bosh. He’s checking his man and looking at Jackson, waiting to help if he drives or box out his man for the rebound. Unless he has eyes in the back of his head, he has no way to help on that play.