Let’s make an obvious statement: The Toronto Raptors just aren’t in the same league as the Denver Nuggets. Even the homerest of all homers will concede this nugget of wisdom (pardon the pun). While it took some time for that sobering reality to manifest itself, the prodigious talents of one Carmelo Anthony and his talented supporting cast pounded and pounded the Raptors inside until they were collectively gasping for that precious Denver air. Let’s hope that it was more the atmosphere than it was the play. Even the Lakers took a beating in these unfriendly confines on Friday night, so maybe there is something to it.
To put it in blunt terms, we had a great first half but deep down you knew that the shots (contested or not) that were going in early weren’t going to fall in the second due to many reasons – fatigue, conditioning, the law of averages, Denver picking up pace etc. It’s still disappointing to see this team hit the wall as early as the third quarter and run out of gas to such an extent that they’re clutching shorts and holding sides during transitions. Sooner or later this defense needs to find a consistent gear and stay in it for 80% of the game, you simply can’t give up three 30+ point quarters and expect to be in a game. Denver’s good, really good, but giving up 130 points, 68 PINP and 62% shooting has a lot to do with our own defensive failings too.
The Nuggets look very polished, first and foremost you have to give them credit for their play. They run their offense through Carmelo Anthony, and why not? He was already a force to be reckoned with before this year, and now you can see the maturity in his game. He posted up frequently last night, and if he didn’t score, he made the right pass for easy buckets. Just too strong and mobile for anyone on this Raptor team. Antoine Wright couldn’t handle him from the start as he singlehandedly kept the Nuggets within reach as the Raptors got off to their roaring start. Then help came as this was identified, and this opened up many, many opportunities to dump off to a cutting Nene or Martin. The Nuggets’ interior passing was superb, they carved open and punished any form of help the Raptors tried to provide on Anthony.
The Raptors got off to a great start, and then provided you with this fleeting confidence that maybe, just maybe, they could pull this out. Maybe Antoine Wright at the SF is the best defensive answer to our woes. The Raptors defense looked very good early on and that’s because they had the energy needed to play defense. They played with energy and verve, active hands leading to turnovers, deflections, short-clock situations, you know, the things that constitute good defense. Jose Calderon looked good on both sides of the ball, sticking jumpers with little space over Billups who was no doubt taken back by Jose’s aggressiveness. DeMar DeRozan got a chance to put his emerging offensive game on display and he made the most of it. The first quarter was easily his best offensive quarter of this season, he had 8 points in 8 minutes. Chris Bosh was not very involved during this stretch or for the rest of the game and that’s mostly thanks to Nene pushing him out of his new found comfort zone and into the mid-post area. He was forced to work outside-in and couldn’t get on the offensive glass like he has all season, a frustrating evening for Bosh who was out-muscled by the Denver big man. After the first we had a one point lead and that was good, actually, not getting blown out in Denver should be considered good.
I’m not pointing fingers at Jay Triano for pulling 4 of the 5 starters off the floor late in the first quarter, but that’s how the Nuggets got back into the game and erased an early 9 point deficit. I’m sure he had a couple of things on his mind. One being the altitude (insert joke) and the second about this being the first game of a back-to-back. That’s fair, but his behaviour wasn’t consistent throughout the remainder of the game. There were a few instances where players looked completely gassed, especially that pivotal third quarter where it was almost comical how easily Denver was scoring and how consistently we were turning the ball over. Why pull out your starters when they’re getting destroyed? You only do that when they’re playing good. Maybe it’s just me, and Jay is usually good at this, but player management was weak for me tonight.
DeMar DeRozan, after starting out on fire, brimming with confidence, got pulled as well in that first quarter. Just to make sure he was completely cooled down, Triano put him back in with about 6 minutes to go in the second, he ended up playing 22 minutes, 5 of which were just garbage time. He should have played more. His shot is starting to come around and he was playing with growing confidence. Why not leave him out there a little longer? Isn’t he a big part of our future? Hedo is not getting any younger, Bosh and Calderon are entering their primes. DeRozan must develop sooner than later. Instead of having Jarret Jack doubling up with Calderon, give some of these minutes to DeRozan, he’ll make ya proud.
Looking to the skies for help.
Speaking of Jarret Jack, he did have a good second quarter which was played at a frenetic pace for the most part. Jack seemed to thrive in that situation. He made the right plays on the breaks, and showed good aggressiveness. The thing with Jack is that he might be putting too much pressure on himself. It’s mostly mental with him, and I do think brighter days are ahead. He did have a tough time dealing with an aggressive Ty Lawson later in the game. He’s not the quickest guy and he will have trouble with speedier types. People were hoping for a lockdown defender to compensate for Jose’s deficiencies but Jarret’s not that guy, sorry to break your heart. We have to look elsewhere for that defensive stopper.
Marco Belinelli needs more of a role on this team and I think he is already on his way to becoming our most valuable bench player, moreso than Jack at this point. He can light it up in a hurry, and he looked like the only player with any kind of life in that horrible third quarter. He made a couple of strong drives to the bucket to keep the defense honest. He plays with a lot of energy, he plays smart, and he is showing that he is versatile. Spots up well, even follows his own shot looking for the rebound, something our bigs don’t do enough of. He has definitely earned more minutes but at whose expense? Sonny Weems looked good as well, I really don’t know why any NBA team would give up on this guy after one year. He is very athletic, has an adequate shot, and even showed an impressive turnaround jumper that would be hard to deal with if he ever got consistent with it. There are bad offensive players and then there is Antoine Wright. Is it just me or does he go into slow-motion whenever he has the ball? Why do players like this not know their role only when they join the Raptors? (See Moon, Jamario and Humphries, Kris)
Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani both had quiet games offensively. Bosh had loads of trouble doing anything against Nene, and he didn’t seem to get a couple of calls that usually go his way. The thing with Bosh is that he relies so heavily on getting whistles, that when he doesn’t get a couple of them, it affects his offensive game. He becomes a little reluctant to take it back inside. Obviously this hasn’t happened much this year. Yes, Bosh has gotten bigger, but he’s still nowhere close to Nene’s hulking frame and probably never will be. This was a game where Bosh should have tried more of a perimeter game, as much as some people dislike that notion. As for Bargnani, Nene’s physical presence was too much for him and after picking up early fouls he was a complete non-factor. Nice dunk, though.
All in all, there are positive things to take from this loss, like the play of our guards and our overall performance in the first half of this game. That’s about it. The rest there is nothing you can do about. A possible MVP candidate that we have no one to guard against, a strong defensive frontcourt that cleans up, and a guy like JR Smith who can light it up from well behind the 3-point, while falling on the floor, while signing autographs. Oh yeah, and a former NBA Finals MVP running the team. The prospect of facing this group will leave more than a few teams gasping, even if it isn’t in the rarefied Denver air.
141 Raps
First!
Please – can we leave that “First!” bullshit for Perez Hilton followers? Who gives a shit?
Horrible refereeing for the game(No wonder, Kobe that depends on trips to the free throw line was a non-factor in the 102-79 loss to the Nuggets). How can you explain Bosh having 2 free throws for the whole game when he averages almost 12 trips to the line this year? Maybe Commissioner Stern wants to gift the NBA title this year to the Denver Nuggets and Chauncey Billups(like they gifted Wade in the 2006 NBA finals), but do the referees have to make it so obvious? Congrats, Rap fans, at least the Raps did not fall to the Nuggets until the 3rd Q unlike the Nuggets-Lakers games which was a complete domination by the Nuggets. I expected Triano to actually condemn the refereeing and even get fined(like Doc Rivers, Jerry Sloan or is Triano scared?). I also expected the players to start playing rough once they see the refereeing is not on their side(to be sincere, Melo needs to be flattened(at least a top scorer in the NBA needs to be sent a message once in a while or are we still the Mr. nice guys of the NBA?), did u see Melo laughing with Billups and making jest of Chris Bosh?)
Tough loss, but we were expecting it. When the raps surprised in the first 2, people forgot their own expectations. Displeased with the refs. Awful.
I was also pleasantly surprised with the first half, which gave me hope that we can finally beat Denver. They are better team than us right now, but they are still beatable. Payback time comes, it’s only matter of time.
In any case we have a good team with depth. Weems – Belinelli – Evans – will be key players in play off time. I have faith on them. Denver is not our problem, will be a Kobe problem.
“Bosh had loads of trouble doing anything against Nene, and he didn’t seem to get a couple of calls that usually go his way. The thing with Bosh is that he relies so heavily on getting whistles, that when he doesn’t get a couple of them, it affects his offensive game. He becomes a little reluctant to take it back inside. Obviously this hasn’t happened much this year. Yes, Bosh has gotten bigger, but he’s still nowhere close to Nene’s hulking frame and probably never will be. This was a game where Bosh should have tried more of a perimeter game, as much as some people dislike that notion.”
At last some constructive criticism of Bosh. I thought Bosh’s strength was his speed and quickness to beat bigger players in the post. From your comments we should assume that Bosh against good teams, most of which have big players in the post, he will not do well against them. Our we going to pay him the max money for taking jump shots against teams that have bigger players in the post.
First off, 3/4 of the league aren’t going to have defenses like Denver. Bosh will thrive against them, and the only times we’ll play the elite defenses is in the playoffs.
And I’m sure that we make the playoffs, at which point we have to hope that Bosh finds his game. He has a new frame and has to get used to it.
That said, Bosh could’ve been a lot better tonight. Let’s hope it’s a learning experience
Do we pay max money for a player that can play well against only 3/4 of the league.
I thought max money was for players that excelled in all conditions and circumstances.
Is Jermaine O’Neal worth his paycheque?
AltRaps, I’m not sure I understand your point. Is it that Bosh deserves a max contract because there are all kinds of players in the league who are not as good as or just as good as Bosh making a max contract. That can’t possibly be the basis for the Raptors deciding whether it makes sense to give him a max contract.
I’m answering his/her point about “players that excelled in all conditions and circumstances.” Jermaine makes significantly more than many in the NBA. I’m just wondering how he fits in the box that is being referred to by the above commenter.
I’m not sure any of us will know what Colangelo will use as a measuring stick as to if Bosh deserves the max. That said, is Bosh as good as Jermaine was when he signed his big dollar contract?
Bosh is a max player. Period.
You pay max money for guys who let your club compete at the next level. You guys look at one bad game from Bosh (one out of 11!) and start calling him out on being a pansy not-worth-max player.
Bosh wasn’t being fed well in the post in the first half. The wings were getting most of the touches on offense for most of the game. And when you have shot-chucking Wright instead of point-forward Hedo as your starting SF, Bosh won’t be getting the same opportunities. Simple as that.
You mean Bosh was being pushed out by the physical Nene. Bosh cannot back his man into the post. He usually has to front him (turnovers, costly during playoffs — I hope people remember the Orlando and Nets series) or a fade away jumper. He is not going to get lenient refs in the playoffs. Can he succeed in the playoffs. Past experience…well…
It’s amazing that you are referring to the inside presence Bosh is supposed to bring to the table without putting it into a team perspective. He was the only person inside (again). If Bargs had contributed it might have softened up the D some. Second, when teams plan to stop your best player the rest of the team has to step up – which is what happened in the 1st half. Other than Belli where did everyone else disappear to? Of course, he’s a max player.
Let me guess, Bosh contributed to interior defense. His +/- was terrible. Both Barg and Bosh were terrible. At least I am honest about stating the facts. Many on the board overlook this. Zach randolph also gets 20/10 (randolph abused our franchise player when they last played). Would you want him to play for your team. NO.
Bosh is suppose to be in the post but can’t handle physical play especially against a bigger and stronger player. His jumper is good. But do you want your PF to shoot a jumper in a 4th quarter/playoffs at a crucial stage. NO. Where does Bosh fit. Oakley said it best. How can you pay 20 million for a jump shooter (paraphrasing, not exact quote, he also mentioned about Bargnani and hitting three-pointers for a 7-ft player.
turnover4thbosh, is there a picture of Bosh in your bedroom that you throw darts at? Just curious.
I think that what we need to do in those circumstances is tell Bosh to pull a Rip Hamilton: there is no way those bigs can chase him around screens when the ball is out of Bosh’s hands. That way Bosh gets position, and they will need to collapse/double-team him once he gets the ball in his sweet-spot (or let him go off).
To give the ball to Bosh 20 feet out against a team with terrific inside defence and ask him to “go to work” is just ridiculous.
First of all, the difficulty isn’t that Nene is big, its that he big and FAST. Like, Bosh fast. So you could see how that’s kind of rare in this league.
Big players are usually slow as well. These players we have seen him excel against over and over. And with his new strength, the smaller faster guys they used to put on him can be taken advantage of as well.
It’s only the extremely rare combo of size and speed that gives Bosh trouble.
And if Bosh is hitting those jumpers, then hells yeah we pay him max money for it. “Are we going to pay Kobe max money to take jump shots?” Come on.
Our we going to pay him the max money for taking jump shots against teams that have bigger players in the post.
Instead of Our it should be Are.
‘Are’ you going to analyze every player on the team by salary and what they bring to the team as individuals and skill set? If you do that OBJECTIVELY you should come to the conclusion that he is worth more and more valuable than any other player on the squad.
I am 100% certain that any ‘franchise’ player example you have will indicate a player that does take jump shots. Every player in the league takes jump shots. It’s about mixing it up and Bosh’s ft atp’s trumps any argument you can make about him solely taking jump shots.
No. Only the one that could eat about 20 to 25 percent of the team’s payroll.
Can he perform against physical teams that seem to push him at will and during playoffs when the physical play and intensity goes up a notch. Remember fouls are called less during the playoffs.
Bosh sits three through seven in stats across the league which alone would justify his qualifications as a max contract player. That he has taken the steps to improve on his already Allstar-quality game merely solidifies that point. No, he’s not an All-NBA performer but definitely max.
not an ALL-NBA player? is dirk that much better then bosh?
bosh is definetly an ALL-NBA player, but in order to become one your team has to be good.
If the raptors get 50 wins, and bosh keeps these stats up, i can almost guarantee he will be ALL-NBA.
How much ‘payroll’ does he currently eat now?
We have players on this team that are ‘gorging’ on payroll in relation to what they achieve on the court.
Did you want to rid yourself of the best player on the team and bring in guys that make half that (like Barg’s and Hedo) but are incapable or loathe to do the heavy lifting?
You base his play on what you saw 2 and 3 years ago in the playoffs with a different team and different players. Should we expect or analyze other players on this team based on what they did 3 years ago? Should I assume Barg’s is going to be be invisible when we get back to the playoffs again based on what we saw the last time we were in the playoffs? I don’t think he will be as is far more offensively potent now than he was then.
It’s clearly obvious you dislike Bosh and thats your opinion but where were your comments for the first 10 games of the season. Were you hibernating?
Not to mention, there’s an interesting twist if one is to look at the “clutch” figures from 82games.com. Over the past several years (if you ignore the first two years of Bosh’s career, when he was just getting started in the league), Bosh has had very solid figures in the clutch moments of each game. No, he wasn’t better than Kobe, LBJ and Wade, but he scored more in the clutch than other bigs like Duncan and Garnett, and even some of the smalls and wings people often associate with being “the man” at the end of games (Pierce, Tony Parker, etc.). The only big man to be more clutch than Bosh is none other than Dirk. Aside from that, if you consider that every team we played against knew Bosh would get the ball, and he still managed to put up the numbers he did as a big man, it really says something about him.
Listen, I understand that you shouldn’t leave calls in the hands of the refs. But in some instance when Bosh drew contact driving baseline (then drew more contact on the shot), it lead to easy fast break points. That said, Bosh has to step up and be relentless. “Again” is what defines players (see NBA commercial).
The Raptors are such a fun team to watch this year. Here we are against Phoenix and Denver, and for most of the time we outscored and outplayed them both in their home courts! I believe that Hedo is coming along for the clutch situations as well. But it just KILLS me when we become a team looking to outscore only. When we could care not so much about getting a stop, and more about that JR Smith-like 3-point jumper from 5 feet beyond the arc.
Said simply, the Raptors are a team of potential. We’ve all seen glimpses. There was one play in the Denver game where there was this great ball movement, guys turning down good shots for better ones. Eventually, Antoine Wright hit a dead-on three, and you know that’s good when someone who can’t shoot hits a basket. I think Jay could have managed the team a lot better tonight, I’m dissapointed.
So let’s wait and see, folks. Should be fun against Utah.
If by fun you mean getting trounced by the Jazz, then yes, it “should be fun” tonight.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not a hater. I am a realist. They were gassed yesterday because of the altitude, and they will be gassed today because of playing an exhausting game just last night. So they are tired, playing a solid, physical western team, at home (in the most hostile arena in the game).
A victory tonight would be a small miracle.
If last night was also because of altitude, then with Salt Lake City being roughly a 1000 ft lower from sea level than Denver, then altitude mixed with a back-to-back could result in a disaster. Keep in mind Utah is well rested too. Haven’t played since Saturday.
We might want to consider closing Raptors Republic for a couple days in order to let people cool down. ;)
Lol.
Most of the game it felt like Denver took little notice of our slim lead. They turned it on for about 5 min of hard intensity and that was enough for JT to pull the white flag with 7 min to go.
The smile on Melo’s face said it all. We weren’t even taken seriously, they did not even view us as a threat. First huge Denver push, we gave gave up, it was over.
Even though we lost, amazingly we killed Denver on the Boards, + 16 and allowing only 3 offensive boards, while having 15 to the raptors
could it because they didn’t need anyone to give them offensive boards as they were dunking everything?
If you look at the first two quarters when the Raptors played well (especially the first quarter), you’ll see that even when they weren’t dunking everything, the Raptors still managed a lead in offensive rebounds.
It’s a shame the glass is half full for most of these Rap fans. Most people had written them off before the game even started. They contended for 3 quarters, then succumbed to fatigue on a long road swing, coupled with suspect refereeing while missing one of their top players and playing a Nugget team that recently blew away the Lakers at home. Bosh had an offnight and still put up 13pts and 14rbs on 6-13fg. Bellinelli continued to show that he can add some scoring punch off the bench; Weems is showing that he belongs in the rotation; Jose,despite what everybody says every game he plays, that he is going to get lit up by a super fast pg(insert any pg) played well on offense and defense and Derozan had his best game of the season. This team still has a lot of potential and it is pathetic that we have to listen to all the whiners after each loss.
Bosh seems to have a off night against tough post players most of the time. Keven Garnett….
It would be good if you had a tough time with your keyboard.
Totally agree. Their record so far is better than many predicted, and with all the changes, I think it’s still to early to tell what the identity of this team is, but there’s huge potential there.
I don’t get it. When I first discovered this site, I thought it was the best of all blog-sites (by far), but it kind of bugged me how Bargnani would get insulted and degraded when, in my opinion, it just wasn’t warranted. Now, when he does (in my opinion) deserve to be trashed – at least a BIT – he’s treated with kid gloves! Offensively, Bargnani stunk last night! The head-spinning dunk and defensive effort aside, he allowed himself to be a non-factor, offensively. There was a whole lot that he could’ve done to take the focus off of Bosh, who was at least trying, but instead of taking initiative with the ball (like he did with the one lousy dunk), he was far too content to let the ball swing around to somebody – ANYBODY else to let that player do what HE should’ve been doing FAR more of. I don’t get it.
And is anyone else getting tired of seeing the refs tilt things just enough against the Raptors that whoever they’re playing against is given every possible opportunity to get back in and even win the game … when they otherwise may not (have)? There are too many examples of this to list … and it’s getting very discouraging. There’s something still very crooked going on in the NBA. And it stinks, bad.
Having just read D Smith’s blog, he mentions how this part of the Raptors schedule is so f***ing ridiculous (not his words – obviously – or anything near as strong, of course) with Denver sitting around waiting at home since last Friday for the Raptors last night … and how Utah has ALSO been sitting around since Saturday, waiting to take on the Raptors on their second of a back-to-back on-the-road.
Not to be a conspiracy theorist (even though I am, sometimes and I-don’t-care-what-anybody-says-about-it – cuz, ‘just because you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you’), but I, for one, am fed-right-the-f**k-up with the disrespect that U.S. based organizations (like the NBA) show to those of us north of the border. Our money (when converted) is just as good as theirs is. But you sure wouldn’t know it.
The problem is that the NBA biggest corp sponsors (tv networks) don’t give a rate ass about Canada because their investment in the NBA is on behalf of the advertiser who generally don’t sell their product to us in Canada. Toronto’s population is large but contributes very little to the biggest revenue source the NBA has…I hate it as much as anybody but until the Raps start winning consistantly and build a large fanbase in Canada and Internationally we will continue to get the cold shoulder treatment from the NBA, refs and players.
Thats why Stern sent the NBA Golden Child in to get things right…hopefully we are on our way.
From Roll Call: Bargnani – rough night. His shots seemed to be either short or long. One of the rare nights this season that I audibly groaned when he hoisted a shot. Had a fantastic drive for a dunk in the second quarter and 2 nice blocks, but his greatness this night ended there. Needs to pass the ball more in certain situations.
At least one of us saw it your way. To steal one of the comments made during the broadcast, it was like he was in quicksand.
I also screamed when nene just snatched the ball out Bosh’s hand. How many times have we seen that before the past few years against tough physical players in the post.
By the way bargnanin had 3 blocked shots.
Thank God he did not take a three point shot like he did when we were tied at 83-83 against Phoenix. I nearly pulled my hair out screaming.
Most of the commentators were questioning his decision making. franchise player…..
The 3rd was meek. Hence I said “2 nice blocks”.
How do you rate the block if it is meek. Please let me know.
I agree bargnani played terrible last night. But bosh wants to be paid the max salary not bargnani. He will be paid twice as much as bargnani if we offer him the max. To be considered the franchise player one has perform at a very consistent high level against all teams and especially against physical post players.
You’re infatuation with Bosh is beyond ridiculous. You guys just wait and pounce for his first bad game of the season then piss & moan like whiny little girls. I find it quite amusing. I won’t even waste my time debating with someone who’s focus can’t seem to get beyond Bosh’s status and how much money he deserves. Who freakin’ cares. Take a look at the bigger picture so far this season and to the only player on this team that been consistently fantastic night in, night out. Guess who that is? Yup, Bosh.
It seems to be ok to criticize any Raptor player except Bosh. But if you say anything about him on this board, people seem to get mad.
Bosh is a good player, not great player. He can’t handle physical play in the post and what last night demonstrated is that he can easily be pushed by a bigger and stronger player. Can he succeed during the playoffs (Orlando & Nets – non-factor) when the physical play and intensity goes up a notch. Fouls are called less. There is the debate.
But in Bosh’s own defense, what really do we as fans have to complain about regarding his effort so far this season? It was one mediocre game and I think your being overly critical. If he continues to have more and more off games then the criticism is warranted, but right now its pure hate. Sorry man.
Mr. Turnover4thbosh didn’t wait for a bad game to bitch at Bosh; in fact, he’s been bitching the entire time.
You and Lil Romeo are making this blog hard to stomach, which is a shame. As a fan, all I ask from the players is that they give an honest effort. Bosh never backed down from the challenge last night. What more can you ask of him? He bulked up this summer so he could be better at all the things you are whining about. He can’t go back and replay the Nets series. But he obviously got the message that he needs to improve. Which he is doing. Now please fu@k off.
Any player can be pushed by a bigger or stronger player, at any given time, not just CB. That is what size, weight and strength is all about, whether it be NBA, NHL, NFL, etc.
Please, can we not let Colangelo worry about how much he will pay Bosh if he stays, as he is already making close to $16 mil in his final year, which is the starting point on a Max deal.
Do you expect him to take less? Would you in your job be willing to make less for each of the next 5 years?
Finally someone with sense. What most people fail to realize is that giving Bosh a max deal next season is simply giving him a 5% raise over this season. If you expect your star player to stay after giving him a pay decrease, you’re sadly deluded.
since we’re fascinated w/ salaries & whether guys have ‘earned’ their dough…do you honestly feel bargs has ‘earned’ that sweet little extension? sorry dude, but i’d rather pay bosh $20M+ per knowing what he’s gonna bring, than be saddled w/ bargnani’s soon-to-be $10M+/yr – 5-yr deal, and having to just plain ‘ole accept that he’s always gonna be below average on the boards, defensively, and that his offensive game is hit or miss. see, when one’s arsenal is built around the jumper, when that jumper ain’t falling, and he doesn’t have the mantality to focus his efforts elsewhere (D, rebounding, hustle, making those around him better, etc.), then he becomes a liability. at the very worst, if bosh’s shot isn’t falling, you know he’s still gonna bring it on the glass, he’s still going to give max effort defensively (you can question his effectiveness, but you really can’t question his effort), and he’s going to try to get to the line.
you can sit back & pick apart bosh’s game all you like. when you show no ability to objectively critique other players (esp. your hero), it just shows that you have an agenda. critique equitably, or not at all.
This is correct. And because he is always giving his all, he is still improving, learning. Most posters previously thought he had peaked. Most now recognize he has taken another step forward in this young season. I want to say something good about Bargs and fit or something but… maybe later. After all his ceiling is higher than Bosh right? Well, not but…
The discussion on these boards is about us giving Bosh the max, not whether he deserves, or is gonna get it somewhere. Please stay on topic.
You seem to know what everyone around the Raptors organization including Andrea does not know ,namely what will be his ceiling in all the different areas of his game next year or the year after .He may become a reserve all star and his contract will be a steal at that price and if Bosh stays with the Raptors and they never progress beyond a second round , Bosh will continue to be derided by most fans because of his max salary which he does not deserve (Andrea ,Hedo , DD and Calderon contracts are good for a few years).
no one ‘knows’ bargs’ ceiling…it could be all-NBA, it could be euro MVP. but isn’t that the issue? wouldn’t you rather ‘gamble’ on a guy like bosh continuing to produce at the same level? i mean, what’s his worst-case scenario – that he doesn’t improve at all, and ‘only’ continues to produce 20/10? would you rather gamble on bargnani developing into something that he really hasn’t shown an ability to become? not like there’s much choice, they already are.
Well yeah, but isn’t that what it means to go for it with a max player? At least, that’s my wish, that they want to win the big one. Hey, maybe they go farther than second. It’s all good. But yeah, of course he will be criticized if they don’t win it all?
Yertu,
not to get into a pay for performance thing, but how do we account for (IMO) Bosh “coming up short” in “clutch situations” and Andrea being “ice veins”? In think there are too many variables, to just leave it at numbers and say “Oh, I’d rather have Bosh”. Not that I am making the case for one or the other.
You can bring it, but if it’s not there when it counts..?
I wish they took money from them when they cause losses or “game changing plays”
The officiating was brutal,JT needed to launch a chair !!!!
One comment that you said was that we were playing against a “possible mvp candidate”,I thought we had one of those….
Anyway dont want to be a negative suzie.
We knew our chances were little at best to win,throw in Hedo and Reggie not playing just hurt our chances even more.
We hung with one of the best teams in the league,but we ran out of gas….the player rotations were terrible.
Our bigs were dragging their asses,did we not have any bigs on the bench that we could of thrown at them,who cares if pops or anybody else for that matter gets shown up,its not like the bigs we had on the floor were making a difference.
I love the youth movenent with weems,dd,amir…who actually move on offense,and marco needs more playing time.
I found our starters were all standing around for way too long.
Please enough of the Jose/JJ experiment,I would much rather have weems,or Marco out there with the 1 guard.
“Please enough of the Jose/JJ experiment,I would much rather have weems,or Marco out there with the 1 guard.”
… or Wright, or Turk, or DD, or Bosh, or Bargs, or POB, or Pops, or Banks, or…
JT should not be tied to player’s “allocated” minutes, if anyone is producing well keep him there as long as as possible especially in the first three quarters. A hot player actually becomes even more creative as he stays longer on the floor, and we don’t really have to worry about physical burn-out, the mind will just compensate for it. Hope playing times for Calderon and Hedo be significantly increased as Raptors really need a calming court general. (Bosh has to enroll some human behavior courses this summer – he does’nt have yet the required people skill for the team to rally behind him, he was the first to be really affected mentally last night that resulted in his subpar performance!). Go Raps Go!
Matchups have lost at least 3 of our games. The combination of Caldron and Jack gives the
opposing team 136pts. per 100 possessions. I can’t see any reason why these two are played
together.
How about Derozan 6/9, 17 pts. in 22 minutes. Thats almost matching Anthony’s production.
Everyone is talking about Jennings. Derozan came out for showtime. And our coach didn’t ever
realize it or didn’t care.
Derozan should’ve played 35 minutes. This was his time. And our coach had no clue.
Could’ve we won this game. Maybe. Maybe not.
But it would have showed himself and the world, he can dominate in the NBA. And with that
kind of confidence and scoring Toronto becomes a top tier team.
The coach missed a golden opportunity against a top tier team.
totally agree. Ive been saying for months that DD needs 30 mins a night.
This was his best game, he needs to have a few more of those before you can start comparing him to Jennings. I’m Not saying he won’t get there, I’m just saying he’s not there yet. No way could he carry a team like Jennings has so far.
“Thats almost matching Anthony’s production”
Except that he got 8 of those 17 points in the first 5 minutes or so (which was great), then 4 points in a bad 2nd and 3rd quarter, before pumping his stats up in garbage time. You see, context actually matters. Melo got his points dominating the Raptors throughout the game. The only thing DeRozan dominated after his first five minutes was the pair of Johan Petro and Joey Graham.
Yeah, DeRozan scored 17 points but most of them in the garbage time. Put him in an intense game, I don’t think he can score. He’ll be scared and shit in his shorts.
The biggest problem with Nene, or guys like him, is that the Raps don’t have one.
Bargs has shooting guard instincts and too often falls into a pattern of instinctively floating out to the perimeter on both ends.
Last night he stayed inside more.
Somehow the Raptors have to figure out a way to break down his bad habits and rebuild them, so he plays inside all the time. He has a comfort zone on the perimeter and if he feels the need to be in the post, he gets ponderous and looks confused. In time, he may grow out of this. If he does, the Raptors will improve a lot. Many of their defensive/rebounding issues in the post are his fault.
Regarding Antoine Wright, this year is actually no different from any other year for him on offense. His terrible play on that end is why he’s been a pine-rider or had such limited minutes in his career to date. About the only thing he’s doing differently this year is he’s shooting 2-point field goals even worse than normal. But in past years he shot them so poorly that he should never have been taking them.
Our post player is Bosh. Bargnani stays on the perimeter to to spread the defense and open up the inside for Bosh. Bosh had many one on one with Nene ..well we know what happened.
Unless of course you are admitting that Bosh is not a post player but a jump shooting PF.
Bosh is not a defensive post player. The raps need such a player, but Bargs has the potential if he could be made to stay down there and stop ranging around the perimeter so much.
It would also be nice to post him on offense. He is considerably larger than Bosh.
Our post player is Bosh. Bargnani stays on the perimeter to to spread the defense and open up the inside for Bosh. Bosh had many one on one with Nene ..well we know what happened.
Unless of course you are admitting that Bosh is not a post player but a jump shooting PF
Last time I checked Bargnani was the center on this team. Yet he should stay on the perimeter right? This prevents him from being anywhere near the boards when rebounding time comes but thats what the jump shooting PF is for no?
You’re entertaining. Consistently annoying in your own unique way.
I really dont see how you got denver is just out of our league from that game?The game was tied at half, and that was with melo and jr smith havin a big half.The team obvisouly was too tired in the second half, and i truely believe thats because they were playing in the mile high city,because from what i’ve heard it really does make a big difference, and we didn’t have hedo.Now i know Denver is the better team of course,but outta our league is a bold statement.
All the haters come out in droves after a loss.
i agree everyone has to stop hating soo much and being so damn critical as toronto fans thats how we begin to lose our star players and why we wont be able to attract other marquee players(turkoglu is not a superstar im sorry guys).we already know where out team fits in terms of rankings so why is everyone trying to critique us like were suppose to be winning the championship this year…..just have patience and understand that were not done in terms on building and wont be for a while so lets juss start supporting our teams through thick and thin instead of hopping on the bandwagon for some games and throwing them under the bus on others(i hate those guys btw)
the refs fucked up last night! it costs us the game. but i can’t believe bosh was the first one on the team to break down mentally. he should be tougher than that. he could have tried to be more aggressive, commit a hard foul, and make a statement that could have the energized the team. his technical foul was stupid.
please, JT, dont play jack and jose together!!! the combo of jack and marco looked great. jack played decently but stop being so fancy! you aint steve nash.
should have brought pops early in the game rather than pob and rasho. he could have energized the team like always, and dunked a big one over birdman.
i cant believe the raptors are still too nice, allowing denver to blow by them and let them throw it down. after the jr smith kiss and bow, i expected guys like wright to commit a really hard foul on him. this should have been redemption night for him after his sissy foul against melo last playoffs.
“he could have energized the team like always, and dunked a big one over birdman”
You mean “missed a dunk” over the Birdman.
I was real disappointed in Triano last night.
1) he should have intentionally got a T. late in the 2nd when the refs blew 3 calls in a row (and completely killed the Raps momentum by the way). Let them know they screwed up big.
2) leaving the starting five in for almost the entire 3rd quarter. With 5 minutes left you could tell they were completely fatigued. I’m not sure why either Bosh or Bargs wasn’t subbed out earlier (their usual rotation). Weems and Belli were having great nights…. why leave Wright out there with how tired he looked.
Maybe the lack of oxygen was effecting Triano’s decision making ability.
All of those ranting about Barg’s salary. Let’s take a look at some of the other ten million dollar boys that I think Bargs out plays.
Samuel Dalambert 11, 360, 000
Bobby Simmons 10, 560, 000
Andrew Bogut 10, 000, 000
Larry Hughes 13, 655, 268
quentin Richardson 9, 352, 000
Mike Miller 9, 750, 000
Eric Dampier 10, 112, 000
Emeka Okafor 10, 538, 000
Biedrins 9, 500, 000
Kenny Thomas 9, 000, 000
And some of these players are going to be making more in successive years. I would take Bargnani over any of these guys. Salaries are relative. There are good players on other teams that are playing for less but we don’t have the pull of a Lakers or some of the other contenders yet. That’s the real world.
I like what Barg’s brings to the Rap’s but you would take him over Bogut?
I think with Bogut we’re a force to be reckoned with as rebounding and interior defensive presence is better with a real center manning the post.
Agree – I have always been a big fan of Bargnani’s however not sure I would rate him ahead of Bogut (who was also an overall #1 pick – picked ahead of Chris Paul – as hindsite is 20/20 wonder if Milwaukee fans moan that they picked the wrong guy the way many Rap fans do about Bargnani).
Well, they have supreme overlord Jennings to run the team now. Also, I would take Bargs over Bogut because at least Bargs can play over 45 games a year
And I’m really sorry,you can’t rate Bargs close to Biedrins for now(and will probably never be close to Biedrins until he gets at least 8 rpg, Biedrins is averaging close to 11 rpg over the last 2 seasons) and Bogut is a real center(I will pull that trade for Bargs if he is available) and Bargs is also no where close to Bogut. Gman, stop riding on Bargs’ dick(he is only a shooter and below average center in the L).
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The Suns game we should’ve won.
The Denver game … not so much.
And while I don’t think the Nuggets are OUT OF OUR LEAGUE, this game presented a number of obstacles:
1)Bosh had a off night … shit happens.
2)Bargs had an off night … his averages are 19 PPG + .487 FG %
3)We missed Hedo, and to a smaller extent Wright.
4)No Evans … and no grabbing Melo’s … uhh ..
5)Amir got 5 fouls in no time (normal avg is 3.3 per game @ 15.8 minutes).
6)Jay gassed our Bigs in the 3rd … a mistake that can be corrected.
7)… and lastly ….. 5280 feet above the Sea (and 4635 feet above my head)
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oops … Wright did play.
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Denver managed to pick apart our D not simply because the Raps got fatigued, but because they could make the extra pass in the paint. We would rotate and cover, but by the time we got there, the ball was moving to the next player 4 feet away for a strong dunk, or an open shot (more often a dunk). Nene: nom nom nom nom.
Against the Nuggets teams need to find a new aggressiveness. They will get the benefit of the calls because of their aggressiveness and size, especially in their own building. But in response the fouls need to be harder, and there need to be more hand checks. Denver is going to get the calls anyway, but you need to make them count. Also, if you have active hands on D only in stretches, including hand checking, you will get called every time you use it. But if you play that way the whole game, you might get a couple of calls, but you get away with more. Look at KG. Denver = Boston West.
On offence the ball needs to be pounded on the inside. I credit Bosh for trying in the second half, and if he got a couple of calls we could have kept it even a little closer (though we still would not have won the game). But Nene will get the benefit of the calls when he digs his forearm into Bosh to push him out of the paint because he is that kind of gritty player all the time.
With our glut of guards there is no reason for Jack to play the 2. Maybe he is secretly grumbling about playing purely as a backup? Another problem now with taking him off that spot is it will mess with his head even more now.
Raps have a deep team. Our bench has been a great bonus for us this year. That is what I like most about this team this year.
great post. too true.
Kobe stunk it up against Denver. He sucks too and should refund the Lakers for giving him a ridiculous max contract.
Do you know why no one stays in Toronto? Because people have silly expectations of winning championships without building a solid foundation, and we rag on our only all star for not going 30/15 every night. Yes Bosh didn’t have the greatest game. People seem to forget that he is probably the only reason we’re in the playoff picture at all.
Do you know how many different teams have have won the championship in the last 25 years? only 7. And of those teams, probably only the 03-04 Pistons did’t have an all-world, arguably-the-best-who-ever-played-their-position player.
The alternative to not having Bosh is being the Clippers. Yes I want the Raptors to win, but it’s not like we can replace Bosh with someone whose any better (or even equal). We should be building around our best players, not bitching because they can’t solve world hunger on their own. Don’t discount fan culture as a contributing factor to why this city hasn’t seen a championship in so long.
Ol’ Dirty, speak the truth brother. TO fans are the worst, and this city doesn’t understand what it means to “support” a team. All this two bit cow town, wannabe metropolis, knows how to do is boo our teams, run our best players out of town, and then cry about not getting any respects cause no one wants to play here.
Some teams fail because they have cancerous players (AI, Zbo, etc). I think there are ALOT of occasions when the Raps look to the crowd for support at home, and they get booed. Toronto fans are the real cancer.
There are plenty, or many times that when the team goes through a rut and lose leads, we (unlike some other teams) we just start getting grouchy and boo instead of cheering them on to help break their dry spell. After Babcock and stupid version of Grunwald screwed our future foundation, Bryan Colangelo is still trying to fix this heap of trash though he might be leaving some of his. As the Doctor phdsteve said: “our team’s true future success lies in the high draft picks we select”
I always wonder if people like turnover4thbosh or FAQ are actually fans, or whether they revel in pissing other people off or ragging on people to make themselves feel better.
Raps Fans would be the only fans who would rather have pizza then a win
The foundation part is what really troubles me a lot and feels it’s too true. Bosh is one hell of a solid piece, but Babcock really screwed two years of solid draft picks with Araujo and Charlie V. All that is passed now, but still I don’t feel that we really have a fortified foundation of players (4 to 5). I still think this season will get us to 40 wins at least and 43 at most, we just have to not piss draft picks away anymore.
Just curious, but how do you lump Charlie V with Araujo? I can say the Araujo pick was a mistake because we could have had either Biedrins or Igoudala, two players we were supposedly looking at for the #8 pick. (As a side note, I guess we could have also done worse since we were looking at Luke Jackson as well.)
But just who did we pick Villanueva over, realistically? The next 11 picks are as follows:
8. Channing Frye.
9. Ike Diogu
10. Andrew Bynum
11. Fran Vazquez
12. Yaroslav Korolev
13. Sean May
14. Rashad McCants
15. Antoine Wright
16. Joey Graham
17. Danny Granger
18. Gerald Green
Can’t say we would have picked Granger at #7 when we didn’t even pick him at #16. If anything, there seemed to be more interest in Gerald Green than anyone else. I don’t remember us looking at Bynum at all, and no, don’t even pretend like anyone knew to pick David Lee in the first 29 selections. In any case, Charlie became T.J. Ford and that was good for a while, so it hardly “screwed” us.
/100% agree.
How I see our depth chart, which is perhaps the deepest, (at least one of the deepest) benches in the league:
Calderon / Jack / (Belinelli?) / Banks
De Rozan / Wright / Belinelli
Turkoglu / Wright / Belinelli / Weems
Bosh / Johnson / Evans / Mensah-Bonsu
Bargnani / Evans / Nesterovic / O’Bryant
I think JT is already considering Beli as the first guard of the bench as long as he keep producing as he is doing now.
1st – Turnover – you are insane. Bosh is a total beast this year, and this team would be total shit without him. Get your head out of your ass, and pay some fucking attention. “He sucks against tough defenders who are big and fast, he’s not a max player”. Bruce Bowen threw Kobe off for years, and Paul Pierce forced Kobe into a ton of bad jumpers in the 08 Finals. Does that mean Kobe isn’t a max player because great defenders can throw him off his game? You’re a fucking dumbass who should be banned from ever posting again if you believe that. The only player that could never be stopped was MJ. There is and will only ever be one Jordan. $20 mil for Bosh is a bargin when you realize that Sammy Dalembert gets $12 million for fucking around the court pretending like he is going to block a shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2nd – Yertu – just cause you want to have Bosh’s back doesn’t mean you have to go after Bargs with the knives out! Loving Bosh doesn’t mean you have to hate Bargnani. Bargs didn’t have a great game last night, but your a fucking idiot as well if you aren’t happy with your starting center putting up 20+ pts, 6-7 boards, and 1.5 blocks a game. What else do you need Bargs to do before you can show him some love?
I think the boys gave an honest effort last night, but ran out of gas in the 2nd half. No Turk meant Carmelo didn’t have to spend any effort on D, probably not a good idea when he is probably THE BEST PURE SCORER in the NBA.
The team is 5-6, with the only real debacle being the Spurs game (which I thought was one where the Refs REALLY bent them over since every offensive rebound that the Spurs got was off a loose ball foul that was ignored). I think we should have some perspective and continue to give this group time to grow. We have seen them do some really good things this year.
As an aside, I haven’t posted in a while because of my growing disdain for “Raptors Nation”. Most Raps fans are nutjobs who are whiney bitches, and love singing the “woe is us” song, or we will be playing in the Finals by next season. We either love this team to the point where we think they might contend for the EC title, or we “love” them so much that we want them to NOT make the playoffs so they can keep drafting in the Top 3, and eventually “find” a LeBron. Neither is rationale, but I guess this is why Toronto is the WORST SPORTS CITY IN THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!!!!!!
Young Money for Prime Minister. Well said sir.
+1
Yertu would like to see Andrea play better than Bosh but earn half his salary . to hell with pay equity.
nah, i’d have simply preferred for bargs to have had one single solid season before being rewarded with such an extension. trust me, i may come across as a hater, but i’ve been a supporter of his since day uno. i don’t know how many arguments i’ve had with guys who think BC fucked up the draft & should have taken player x or player y. i’ll be first in line when (if?) bargs ‘puts it all together.’ until then…i reserve the right to continue to POINT OUT THE FUCKING OBVIOUS. which is…as long as your 35 mpg centre averages less than 7 boards/game, and doesn’t bring much else to counter that ‘production,’ the raps as a team will be going nowhere but the lottery (or a 1st round exit, if lucky). 20 pts sounds nice, and it sure is ’special’ having a 7-footer who can score in such ‘unique’ ways, though it doesn’t necessarily help the team win.
if the choice was simply: a 14/9 season from bargs, 50 wins & a top 5 seed…or 20/6 & missing the playoffs…what would you choose? because, in some respects, it is as simple as that. this team can score.
and cesco – do you really think bargnani is capable of putting together a single season that equates (let alone is better than) any of bosh’s past 5?
All I see is that Andrea is still progressing . His efficiency and other stats show that (compare to last year stats). Independently of what level he reaches , Bosh will still be criticized (assuming max level contract) if he does not carry the team to at least a conference final . From the way the team has been playing (tough 11 games to start the season) , the ingredients are there to reach that target (not this year obviously).
actually, the stats show that bargs is producing at pretty much the same level he was starting in Jan09.
Well, considering Bosh didn’t reach his 20/10 self until his 3rd year of play, is it that big a deal if Bargnani only started his current caliber of play in the 2nd half of his third year?
And unfortunately, the choice is not as simple as you stated. Not that anyone can ever prove it, but I’m willing to bet that the 3 extra rebounds would just come at the expense of someone else. Taking fewer shots won’t make him a better rebounder.
Some people want the 6.5 million dollar man (this year) going 20 & 10. To those impatient fans, I say: Andrea is progressing – can we not enjoy that?
As for Bosh, I don’t know if he’s a 20 million a year man — I have a problem with anyone not named Wade/LeBron/Howard making that kind of money. That said, I think Bosh is more than pulling his weight. Now he just needs to convince the others to step up their play too.
People forget, or maybe they get too enthusiastic about this 2009/10 Raptor team, but I’d rather see BC plan this team around the future, and not commit to some wild dream of the Finals – irrational as that is.
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I think the better question as far as Bosh’s impending paycheck goes, is “Will ANYONE pay him $20mil next year?”
The answer to that question, I have no doubt, is “YES.” Since he can and will get paid next year, and since this team is better with him than without him (because no one will trade a better player… period!), we should do all we can to keep him.
Even pay him max money, if that is what it takes. I just wish he would be willing to accept $1-2 million less a year to help this team build a true contender. But at the end of the day, our question to Bosh should not be “Will you accept $18mil?”, it should be “We WILL give you $20mil if you want, but we believe that we could build a better team around you if you took $18mil. Will you accept that?”
Realistically, there are worst places to be than having Bosh stay for max money, especially with owners that are willing to spend money to contend. If this roster stayed together for 3+ more years, I can see us playing in the EC finals in two years.
Not trying to cramp your style but FYI, the question is “will anyone pay him $16.5 mil next year?” Considering you were willing to offer him $18 mil, why the hold up over $16.5 mil?
Also, the $1-2 mil less a year will NOT help this team become a true contender. Know why? Because $1-2 mil less will still leave us over the salary cap. Assuming we keep the entire current team (minus Pops so we have a spot free), we’ll still only get that one extra MLE player, and if that one player could make us championship contenders, well, I’m sure BC would sign him regardless of the luxury tax level. The fact of the matter is, there’s no player who would be willing to sign for $5-6 mil with the Raptors who will get us over the top. That kind of progress has to come from within — from DeRozan, from Bargnani, from Belinelli, from Johnson, etc.
It’s also worth it to note that you criticize Bosh because you can watch him play in every game. Each time he turns over the ball, misses a shot or screws up on D, it brings him down a notch (however small) in your mind.
You compare Bosh with another max player and in your mind Bosh isn’t worth it… because you only see the positive highlights of every other max player on SportCenter that night.
Bosh’s numbers are simply amazing and he’s totally worth a max contract.
Is Bosh going to lead and deliver a Championship? Maybe, maybe not.
The question that should be asked over and over again, Can Bosh handle physical play in the post against stronger players. Can he be effective late in the 4th and playoffs when few fouls are called and physical play goes up a notch. Or are we satisfied with a jump shooting PF and award him a max contract.
The best way to figure if Bosh has progressed is to check his fourth quarter stats in rebounding, points, misses, attempts and the most important for Bosh, turnovers. Analyze those numbers and see for yourself that they may not be that great. I am sure the first three quarter stats are going to be fantastic.
So what are you proposing, Turnover? Let Bosh walk, or do a sign-and-trade?
And then what? Who do you think we can get (via free-agency or via the sign-and-trade), and do you they those players are better than Bosh? Please be as specific as possible.
At the end of the day, it is fine to ask, “are we satisfied with a jump shooting PF and award him a max contract,” but if the alternative is a couple of mediocre players, I don’t see how our team will be better without Bosh.
Think about it, and then try to give us a detailed, feasible option if Bosh insists on max money (and we are unwilling to give it to him).
What’s sad is, I know for a fact you haven’t checked those fourth quarter stats yourself, and yet you put the onus on other people to check. It must be easy spouting biased diatribes without real evidence.
Last year was Bosh’s worst in 3 years when looking at the last five minutes of every 4th quarter and overtime with neither team ahead by more than 5 (”clutch situations”). And yet, he was 3rd in the league of all big men (only Dirk and Zack Randolph were ahead, and Randolph’s was a smaller sample size) with 34.2 points per 48 minutes. Please note that his scoring in non-clutch situations is ~28 points per 48 minutes, so your statement “I am sure that the first three quarter stats are going to be fantastic” is already erroneous.
In the two seasons before last, Bosh scored 36.7 and 38.9 points per 48 minutes in clutch situations. If you look at the 2007-2008 and 2006-2007 seasons for Garnett (one with Boston and one when he was the franchise player for the Timberwolves), you’ll see that Garnett scored at only a rate of 21.1 and 25.2 points per 48 minutes, respectively, and with much lower shooting %s (38-41% vs Bosh’s 45-47%).
If you look at Bosh’s rebounding numbers last season, he was rebounding at a rate of ~12 rebounds per 48 minutes during non-clutch situations, versus 14.8 during clutch situations. The only two places where you are even close to accurate is with misses and turnovers. Yes, Bosh has a slightly higher miss rate during clutch situations, but that’s to be expected since it’s when defenses tighten up. It (as well as the higher turnover rate) is also understandable when you consider that the opponent knows the ball is going to go through Bosh.
If you look at other top players in clutch time, Bosh had a lower turnover rate last year than LBJ, Wade, Paul, Pierce, Randolph, Rip Hamilton, Devin Harris, Granger, Ginobili, Deron Williams, Igoudala, Caron Butler, Yao, T.J. Ford, Boozer, Duncan, and the list goes on. Maybe San Antonio and Utah should throw Boozer and Duncan to the wolves too, because they sure commited more turnovers than Bosh while scoring less during crunch time.
I feel sheepish having to do all the research for you, but now you can finally go away.
*applause*
Summed up my thoughts exactly. From Ottawa and I can’t believe how you all hate on your teams. I thought Sens fans were the ones supposed to rag on the Leafs
i have to agree slightly with young that toronto is a fucked up sports town; mostly media-wise. fan590 is simply horrible. zero talent, suburban hucksters, and hockey-drunk ‘patriots’ the lot of them. roger lajoie deserves special mention for being such an incomparable ignorant crank. but i’m venting.
the point here is that the raps finally have a talent that they managed to nuture from draft day to present day; he has matured and created his own culture within which to thrive. bosh is finally at a place where you can tell he belongs. talk of him ‘disappointing’ or being an asset we should trade is ridiculous. if anything we should, as a media-base and fan community, be lauding and applauding him. Making sure he understands that WE understand how this glorious game works.
Our problem is that we need an equally mature and well-versed coaching staff to settle the team into a rhythm. triano is not the guy.
As well, bargnani is a talented guy, but you simply can’t have your center give you the timid rebounding that he provides. it’s just going to keep killing us.
to my mind, this is the most interesting raptors team in about 5 seasons. but i think we’ve got too many players, a coach who can’t decide who to sit on the bench, and a center who truly needs to be traded for a starting rebounding asset. reggie evans is a bench player. he’s not gonna start. i’m sick of leo rautins and matt devlin talking about bench depth. it matters squat that we have guys with special talents on our bench if they aren’t going to be significant, steady rotation guys.
by the way, does amir johnson remind anyone else of a young antonio davis?
To defend bosh, you have to criticize Barg for his rebounding. I agree Barg is not good rebounder.
The question that should be asked over and over again, Can Bosh handle physical play in the post against stronger players. Can he be effective late in the 4th and playoffs when few fouls are called and physical play goes up a notch. Or are we satisfied with a jump shooting PF and award him a max contract
And again, I will ask, what are you proposing? Let Bosh walk, or do a sign-and-trade?
And then what? Who do you think we can get (via free-agency or via the sign-and-trade), and do you they those players are better than Bosh? Please be as specific as possible.
At the end of the day, it is fine to ask, “are we satisfied with a jump shooting PF and award him a max contract,” but if the alternative is a couple of mediocre players, I don’t see how our team will be better without Bosh.
Think about it, and then try to give us a detailed, feasible option if Bosh insists on max money (and we are unwilling to give it to him).
Interesting, to get a point across you have to use profanity.
Bowen was a good defender but did not prevent kobe from doing what he does best, perform in the clutch. Kobe is an incredible player that is very physical and stays in great shape. I am not going to comment about a max player like Pierce and max player like Kobe on their battles in the playoff. I have only reviewed tapes on the raptors-nets and raptors-magic series. It ain’t pretty seeing Jason Collins neutralizing our franchise player.
I am not sure if you are aware, the sixers can’t trade Dalembert. Bad signing, Nobody wants him. Thats why I am bringing up the same question over and over again. Can Bosh handle physical play in the post against stronger players. Can he be effective late in the 4th and playoffs when few fouls are called and physical play goes up a notch. Or are we satisfied with a jump shooting PF and award him a max contract.
If Raptors fans think things are horrible now with Bosh, I’d hate to read everyone’s reactions if he does leave next summer. Ouch. I might have to stop reading blogs and forums all together. :(
If bosh leaves, let us all sign a petition for Raptors to leave Toronto.
If Bosh leaves, Raptors will be fine. They can do a sign and trade and bring back some good talent in return. If the raptors turn out to be 500 team, or Bosh does not accomplish the following things, do you still want to give him a max contract.
1. Not panic in the 4th quarter, holding onto the ball too long, handling more physical guys during the stretch. What are his current stats during the 4th quarter compared to other players and previous years.
2. To sustain this through the whole year. Last year well you know what happened.
3. Not get injured. Has missed a lot of games the past few years and was not 100% for many of the games he did play.
4. Choked and played terrible in the last two playoff series. Totally outplayed by his franchise and star players from the other team. Playoffs are more physical and less fouls are called. Can Bosh thrive in such a scenario.
5. Able to play at this level if Bargnani or Hedo goes down tdue to injury. Defenses have not been double teaming him this year because Barg is shooting extremely well and Hedo can take it the the hoop.
6. Play defense. Has not improved at all. Just waits under the basket for the rebound.
Please be more specific. Who are they going to do a sign-and-trade with to “bring back some good talent in return,” as you claim? Here is the link to ESPN’s trade machine to help you factor in contracts and formal rules into your argument:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
Next year a lot of players will be changing teams either through free agency or trade. There will be many opportunities. For Bosh to get the 20 million plus contract with an six years (instead 5) with another team is to do a sign and trade with the Raptors.
Toronto is in a very good position.
But keeping in account other team’s cap limitations, I’d be curious to see what you propose? Knowing how you underestimate Bosh overall as a player, I’d like to see what you come up with for a trade scenario? LC009’s given you the “for fun” tool to use. Go crazy because I’m dying to know. ;)
A huge problem that you will find if you go into the trade machine, is matching up salaries. The reality is that we would NOT get a player of Bosh’s talent (or better) back from a trade. So the next best option is to get a young, talented player who could become that good or better (with other players being included in the trade as needed to fill roster needs and make the math work).
Once you are looking at a young stud, your only choice is to find one on the last year of his contract as well, because it will be impossible to match-up salaries otherwise. For instance, say we want Brooke Lopez; he only makes $2.3mil this year (and probably not much more next year). To match-up financially (with Bosh getting $20mil), we would need someone on a huge contract, but who is not good enough (e.g., Jermaine O’Neal, or Shaq).
But we don’t want to have a bad contract. So the only real option is a guy like Al Horford, who is due for a huge payday as well. Say we want Horford, and he gets $12mil. Now we include a scrub or two (to free roster spots), and they include a decent player with a medium contract, and a scrub (maybe), and we are all set.
Horford plays center, Bargnani plays PF, and we are not too bad off.
Another option is to target two solid players (one or both being young and with potential for improvement), and try to include Marcus Banks in the deal (to make it worth our while). But that is $24mil that we have to get back, so expect at least one player that is a bit overpaid coming back.
All that aside (and it is a DIFFICULT task, once you get down to the details), I still think that we are better off keeping Bosh and building this team around the nucleus of Bosh, Bargnani, and Calderon. We will have to work on improving at the 2 and the 3 spots (as Turk ages), but we can build chemistry and consistency in the meantime (and develop some young talent of our own, such as DeDe).
Sorry, to burst your bubble, LC009, it is Bargs we are supposed to trade right now not Bosh(any similar talent, you pair with a below average center in the L will still yield average results, ask Bosh about his experience with this “center”). Bargs for Brooke Lopez or Andris Biedrins(would favor Brooke’s trade, Lopez is a beast on the boards(perfect complement for Bosh) and he is as young or even younger than Bargs) trade will make this team much much better.
That’s not even remotely MY bubble you are bursting, Smushmush. If you follow the thread of this particular discussion, you will see that Turnover is arguing that we should trade Bosh, and I am arguing that we should not.
That being said, I also don’t think we should trade Bargnani right now. For one, his value is not too high (compared to how much he will be making once that extension kicks in). And secondly, Bosh has taken his game into another level in his 25th year. Given that Bargnani has been improving each year, and that he is almost 2 years younger than Bosh, I think he still has a lot of improving to do as well.
More importantly, I would not trade Bargnani right now because I truly believe that he is a better fit with Bosh. Right now, everyone is please with how Bosh has been attacking the basket and getting to the free-throw line instead of settling for jump-shots. He is working inside, and Bargnani affords him that space by working from the outside. Now, what happens if we match Bosh with a guy who works down low? Take a guess. He will most likely revert to shooting jumpers.
In other words, because of who Bargnani is (and what he does best), he brings out the best in Bosh (i.e., working inside), and gives him space to operate by being an outside threat. Brooke Lopez would essentially push Bosh to the mid-range areas of the court.
http://www.nba.com/raptors/schedule/
Anyone notice how shitty the Raps’ schedule is this year? Not just the beginning. Look at last two months of the season. In March, we start in Houston, then come back for only 2 games, before we go on another West-Coast road swing. April is the worst as the Raps will be on a plane for every other game. No back-to-backs at home, when everyone is a fatigued after a long season, either preparing for the playoffs, or working on the old golf-swing.
I thought having so many road games this early on would help our late season schedule, but apparently it hasn’t.
I don;t mean to complain, but it is something I noticed.
Wow, how many optimistic and positive articles has it been in a row on RR? Just kidding, I like the optimism, and great recap of the game.
But one point about Pops. I love the guy, he brings energy, he’s athletic, and he hustles. But we already have Reggie, Amir, and Rasho as bigmen, wouldn’t it have been smarter to sign some defensive point guard instead? I can’t think of any at the moment and I’m too lazy to check, but there must be some PG out there that could possibly help (Iverson?!..Just kidding, just kidding). Especially if Jose is injured, then who would back-up Jack? I know that its almost impossible for you to get a contributing player at the minimum and for your final roster spot, but I still trying to find a PG would have been a better option.
I think Jack plays atrocious when you put him with Jose, bar none. Not saying those two don’t like each other, but they are defensively weak and offensively out of character if they are both on the floor. ONLY in 1 minute situations or drastic injuries that you HAVE to put them on the floor together,
As I predicted, the Raps fought in this game, but the Rape in Denver was inevitable, at least we did not make it seem consensual (*Ahem* Kobe) like the last 3 or 4 seasons. Billups turns this once-thugger team into a team of professionals, Melo and JR better thank him for saving their careers.
Loved the Scent of A Woman reference when talking about DeRozan LOL
I am in hawaii so was unable to watch the game.
two numbers jumped out of the box to me. first, the huge rebounding edge. it really surprised me given the score, especially oreb. 19-3! I know denver did not miss many shots and there are not a lot of oreb’s off of dunks but 19-3!
also, bargs had a great +/- of -4 for 30 min in an 18 pt loss. dd was +1 in 22 min, but with a 21 yr old I am ok with limiting minutes even when he is hot.
anyone good at calculating game scores? I wonder what bargs’ GS would be? 6 reb and 3 blks in 30 min. it would be interesting to see if this would provide a reasonable GS despite a poor scoring night.
I liked the idea of resting people down the stretch here with an eye towards tonight.
Regarding max salary: Bosh has every right to demand one, whether he’s worth it or fans don’t like it! And this for BC to handle and I am sure he’ll make the right decision in the future because he is very good at this (and he also acknowledges his mistakes). And unless one is an MLSE stockholder, barking about player’s salary here won’t mean a thing (as one is assuming BC is dumb).
But of course everyone is allowed to depressurize here in RR. Go Raps Go.
Well put. One of the most important tasks as a GM in any sport is how you spend the owner’s money. And, does that spending equal results – i.e. revenue through television; playoff runs; merchandise sales; championships. For that reason, handing out maximum contracts is something you need to do very rarely and carefully.
Does signing Bosh to a maximum contract equal results as defined above? That is the $120 million question. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Howard … much easier decision based on their results to date and likely future results. Bosh wouldn’t do it if I were GM. He’s a great player, just not a max player in my view.
It still be on for 6-6. Enjoy the development of a very good team.
once again, watching triano fumble rotations etc is just so disappointing. i have to turn the volume off on the broadcasts because matt devlin is just too terrible for words, so i don’t know if the announcers are actually addressing Triano’s erratic and flushed decision making but something’s got to give here.
if toronto winds up being a .500 club — which is possible — most of the general canadian sports media (read: puck-heads) will assume this was a successful season and that’ll mean Triano gets back in for another round. This would be just the most horrible turn of events.
sure, it’s not an easy survey to compile a list of available, top flight coaches but one thing i am convinced of: jay triano is not one of them. If he were to be let go, can any of you point to one team not named the hornets that would even remotely have JT on its radar? nope.
Raps losses haven’t been so severe to cause concern. As much as a loss on the books is still a loss; tough games with marginal losses early on against strong teams are easier to recover from in the long-run course of the season than a false sense of security against weaker teams which will break us down later on. Triano is known for his strong mental as well as game strategies. I think we need to just ♫”let the gentleman do his thing”♫ Second string players need game time now to be strong later in the season for the really BIG deciding games. As long as the team has the heart to commit their best game to the floor, without unrelated distractions Bosh, we’ll be fine.
“Even the homerest of all homers will concede this”
“deep down you knew that the shots (contested or not) that were going in early weren’t going to fall in the second”
Pardon me for having my own thoughts, but I don’t concede any such thing. This is a new team with new coaches and new systems. It’s conceivable, and to my mind probable that the defense is going to start clicking and someone is going to pay.
Yet another negative article by yet another RR writer with no vision or imagination. It reminds me of school where the cool kids were always arrogant whiny bitches, that’s how they got the attention they craved.
Anyone Still Ragging on DeRozan?
I think he is coming along just fine.
We have a long way to go until the all-star game.
A lot more downs and up to come. It comes with being a rookie. However, overall looking good.
DeRozan would fit in nicely in Utah’s offense. His cutting ability + movement off the ball would be utilized properly.