Make no mistake, that ball is going nowhere but out of bounds for a turnover.Matt Bonner drives in for the two-handed slam! Those are words that have never been uttered before and it’s for good reason. It’s just not supposed to happen, but leave it to the Raptors to make the impossible possible. Giving up 129 against Dallas was terrible enough but we had the back-to-back excuse to use but what about tonight? We got ours handed to us by a Spurs team missing Tony Parker and Tim Duncan for one reason: they wanted it more. Full credit to the Spurs who didn’t use their two All-Stars being out as an excuse and came out fighting against a Raptors team which was all too content to play only one end of the floor. Losing despite shooting 59% says all you need to know about a defense, a defense which got exposed for what it is at its core – fundamentally cracked and to top it off, lazy.
You had to like the way the Raptors started this game. Jefferson was checking Bargnani who didn’t hesitate in taking the smaller player into the post-area for short jumpers and drives. No complaints there, but what goes around usually comes around. Jefferson conceding Bargnani size meant Bargnani conceding quickness and more importantly, coming even further out to defend a small forward. This was a background story for most of the game – Jefferson coming straight at slower defenders like Bargnani, Wright (awful tonight) and Belinelli for slashing scores. Good ‘ol RJ, he’s switched two teams since his NJ days but things haven’t changed. Bargnani had 14/4/4 but Jefferson had 24/8/7, and it says something about a guy collecting 8 rebounds when the other team shot close to 60%. Don’t fear, we’ll get to Bargnani’s four measly rebounds and his defense on the great Hall of Famer Matthew Bonner in a bit.
Bosh had 9 first quarter points against Theo Ratliff who really shouldn’t be in the league. Credit to Bosh for starting strong just like he has all this year, no messing about, straight to the rim on most possessions which meant a good share of camping out at the line, he made 15-17FT. The defensive warning signs came early, and it was George Hill planting the seed in the Spurs’ brains that this team can be had if you only drive it at them. As well as Jose Calderon’s 9 first half points looked, there’s nothing to celebrate when his check, Hill, goes for 11. Any arbitrary screen set to clear out Jose Calderon is emblematic of our pick ‘n roll issues, which have not improved from last year.
If a screen is set behind the three-point line, either Jose Calderon should come under and get back in position on the other side OR we should hedge to buy Jose some time to recover. None of those two things happen, what happens is that the other PG will just use the screen to go past both our defenders while Jose is still on the wrong side of the screen and his man. WTF? Of course we gave up 131 points! Not to single out Jose here because it was a problem with Jack and even Wright.
The second quarter saw the introduction of Matt Bonner and DeJuan Blair. Bonner immediately hit a three after being left open and then followed it up by an Oscar Robertson-like drive for a floater. Now I know you want to make a shooter drive but is the only other option that he glides to the rim like an eagle in flight for two? Is there no middle ground? Can’t Bargnani or Wright just crowd him at the three-point line, force him to either pass or dribble into a turnover by moving their feet? Apparently not. Help defense shouldn’t even be an issue here, you shouldn’t need to provide help against players like Matt Bonner, Keith Bogans and the fossil that is Michael Finley. They are role players that rely on others creating for them, when they started creating for others it’s a problem!
So 32-31 at the end of the first after Jack hits a three at the end. Blair came in and brought with him some intensity on the boards and frustrated Bosh and Bargnani with his physicality, the guy is huge, his biceps are the size of Bosh’s thigh. Combine this with RJ, Manu and Hill driving to the rim and our tendency to help on everything and you get yourself a weak rebounding core that is over-matched in one-on-one play and out of position because they’re being told to help. Fact is that you can’t collapse/help so often, the human body isn’t designed to go inside-out, rotate, close-out on every defensive possession, you have to make an initial stand and avoid all that mayhem that’s bound to follow if you get beat.
Ginobili and Jefferson started to heat up in that second quarter because the Raptors were too busy trying to deal with Blair and McDyess who were both crashing the offensive glass. Once the Spurs got the ball back, they kicked it out to their wings who waited for a close-out that was easy to negotiate, drove to the rim and either finished themselves or teased us with a couple more swings. The Spurs had 19 first half second-chance points and were beating us 11-2 on the offensive glass. That, folks, nullifies our 63% shooting. The bench scoring was 30-14 in favor of the Spurs thanks to the legend that is Bonner and Ginobili. Hedo Turkoglu was scoring but he was also being scored on by Jefferson and Ginobili with ease. Our defensive stalwart, Wright, was being shaken by eye-fakes and jab-steps 23 feet out. I mean, what can you say to that? That’s just…..unacceptable?
We had good offensive performances from Belinelli, Bargnani and Bosh in the third quarter but we gave everything right back on ensuing possessions. Chris Bosh went to the bench at the 5:09 mark of the third quarter and our bench did a great job of keeping the offense going with him out; Jack, Belinelli, Johnson were very effective in that stretch and helped the Raptors nurse a 2 point lead into the fourth. It was apparent that the first team to either go cold or play any defense would win this game.
When Bosh returned for the fourth quarter I expected us to put this game away but our defense failed us, an 11-2 San Antonio run which followed a Belinelli three turned the momentum against us. Worst part about that run, every shot they took was open. Let me comment about that early fourth quarter in bullet form:
- Jarrett Jack should not be getting beat by George Hill so easily, high-screen or no high-screen.
- There is no reason for Wright to be helping off of Ginobili.
- There is no reason Andrea Bargnani (who is not involved with the ball in any way) should be leaving Matt Bonner to wander aimlessly.
- If you’re Chris Bosh and your man is setting an elbow screen for Ginobili to get open, you can’t just do nothing and allow Weems to get caught without stepping out.
- Belinelli should be hanging on to RJ instead of letting him get to an open baseline spot for a fake and a J.
- It should not be an ordeal for us to get Bosh the ball in the low-block against Matt Bonner or McDyess.
- The inexperienced Sonny Weems is probably not the guy you want guarding Ginobili during crunch time. Play the cards you’ve been dealt and rely on your defensive stopper, Wright.
For the season we’re allowing opponents to shoot 45% from threes. It’s clear that we’re helping/forced to help to such a degree that our opponents are getting very clean uncontested looks. I’m starting to wonder whether Triano’s help-scheme is suitable for the players’ physical ability, which he insists isn’t the case:
There’s nothing wrong with our coverage, we just need to close out better
The Roll Call has the player ratings but let me touch on a couple special cases:
Hedo Turkoglu: He made me look like a god-damned fool in the Daily Dime chat after I said that he’s actually a pretty good defender and knows how to use his size. I’ve never seen a 20 point, 8-12FG performance get washed out so easily by bad defense. Anybody caught how he fell for the fake-left move by RJ? When has RJ ever gone left? I know he’s got that sleepy-eyed look about him but it sure doesn’t look like he’s spending any energy on moving his feet or rushing for a close-out.
DeMar DeRozan: I know he struggled early on defense but what’s with not getting any minutes past the 7:22 mark of the third? Were Wright and Weems that much better? Do substitutions like these follow a pattern or make any sort of matchup sense? I’m trying hard and not seeing a thing.
Andrea Bargnani: 4 rebounds in 31 minutes when the team is -12? Piss-off. Players get 4 rebounds by not doing anything, if you play for that long the chances of four balls rolling your way are pretty high. I counted one real rebound by him and that came in the fourth quarter. Maybe he was out of position because he was guarding perimeter oriented players tonight but that is no excuse. We have high expectations of him on both ends of the floor and he failed defensively. I’m also surprised Triano didn’t see how easily he was getting beat by Jefferson and didn’t switch earlier.
Antone Wright: Terrible defensive performance and what’s with trying to go one-on-one? This is the first team he’s been on where he feels he has the freedom to get creative with the ball. Triano should nip this disease in the bud and inform him that his role is to hit the glass and play defense. Nothing more.
This game was all about our wings (Calderon, Jack, Turkoglu, Wright, DeRozan, and to a lesser extent, Belinelli) getting beat far too easily on the perimeter and our big men losing rebounding position to concede second chance points. Ginobili scored the easiest 36 points he’ll ever get, hitting wide open jumpers with his defender about 8-12 feet away mangled between a screen set by his own teammate. Ask a coach, every single one of them will tell you that defense is about communication and we can’t even communicate first order things like “fight through”, “hedge” or “rotate”. Oh Triano, what the hell did you spend training camp on?
Terrible way to lose.
94 Raps
Is it too early to call for Iavaroni’s head? He was the mastermind of our defence, brought in for his defensive prowess, and this is what we got? Sheeeeeeeeeiiiit.
I dont care how good a defensive scheme is, if the players don’t hustle and give it their all every night they’ll get beat. The D was bad, but if the rebounding battle was equal we woulda won this one! Can’t blame Iavaroni.
I don’t buy this player not hustling …. excuse. We have 9 new players, are u telling me that all these guys are not willing to play D ??? We had almost 20 -30 different players the last 2-3 years and we always sucked in D !!! There is something more here and I don’t know what !!!
We do play Euro ball… thats the problem. European players are known for their shooting touch rather than their gritty D.
What a ridiculous comment…are Bosh, DD, Wright, Jack, Johnson and Weems European…their defense was just as bad as anyone else.
Also the Spanish team came very close to beating Team USA in the Olympic finals against LBJ, Kobe, Wade, Howard, Prince, Bosh,etc…I guess those American players aren’t known for their gritty play.
Come on. First of all, too many european type players in the starting line up. That means too much shooting and not enough grit. Basketball is international game, but this is an north american league, different from international play, open court, open looks. We need someone that is will to grind it out for rebound, dive to the court for a loose ball, sprint back to block, or disrupt a fast break.
I think Iavaroni is on the line more than Triano in terms of defence, because that is why he was brought in.
I also feel like it isn’t just about personnel. There is something fundamentally wrong with the defence. Phoenix is playing better defence than us, and their personnel is more suspect than ours should be. I am seeing things happening involving Wright that I should not (you mentioned the poor pick and roll defence). Our bigs should not be out-rebounded by JEFFERSON. We have the height advantage, but our bigs were constantly out of position for the board because they were helping.
Turk was brought in to be somewhat of a game-changer. Use his IQ, playmaking and savvy play to get points we had no business getting, and to play solid D at the 3-spot. So far he has had a couple of decent games, but i really think he needs to be playing for us like Ginobili is playing for the Spurs.
We keep finding new ways to have the most disappointing loss of the season. Can this last for a whole season? Do I feel worse about this loss that I should?
The system doesn’t seem to mesh with the skills and athletic abilities of the players. The players defensive skills don’t seem to compliment each other as well. I think we need to see what happens when Reggie Evans is available before abandoning ship.
I have a hard time blaming coaching for this. Tons of people predicted the Raptors would be awful on defense this year… Why? The personnel.
Against a team with Duncan, yes. A team where Jefferson is getting the boards? No. Our big men are constantly out of position. They are moving around way too much away from the basket for no discernbable reason.
Arse … there is something strange happening to the Raptors … and if you take a step back and look dispassionately at what’s happening you too may come to this conclusion:
Bosh has already told BC that he wants to leave Toronto ASAP, and would like to be traded to a potential playoff team. Bosh has done everything to enhance his trade value for BC … gained muscle over the summer … plays the boards like a monster … is scoring huge … is showing himself to be a max money player without doubt ….. but he doesn’t want to stay in Toronto.
Just look at the scoring distribution … it’s all Bosh from everywhere and everything …!!!!
Any playoff-bound team would welcome Bosh’s presence even for one season … regardless of the 2010 player bazaar. Now the question is which team is willing to take on Bosh and give up several decent players in exchange???
I don’t think this is a too far-fetched behind-the-scenes scenario … do you???
That doesn’t tell you anything about Bosh’s personal motivations or whether or not he wants out of Toronto. The way he is playing is preparing him for either option – staying or leaving – and if BC can work something out with another contender that nets us talent in return, then all the better. Do you have anything else to support your conspiracy theory other than him playing hard? The way I see it, he wants to be a max-money franchise player and is leading this team win or lose. He will get picked up at any price next year one way or another so he doesn’t have to be playing like a man possessed if its just getting out of Toronto he wants. How many championship teams right now can afford to trade reasonable pieces for Bosh without affecting their own team chemistry anyway? Bosh is not the type of player you trade for draft picks only. If he gets traded, BC had better be getting some talent in return.
What amazes me is that FAQ really beleives in the crap he is spewing. Can the Raps win their 4th game already so we can get rid of him.
He will not go any where :)
thats what people said about Khandor
Wright needs to learn how to pass and take open shots. That is it. Why does he feel the need to look off of Bargnani and every other player on our squad, and drive into multiple defenders?
At least hes attacking… but i agree, Bargs was wide open and he didn’t pass. The problem with our D is that we fall for pump fakes way too often. Sometimes we just gotta let them shoot jumpers with hands in their faces.
That picture pretty much sums up Wright’s night on the offensive end.
Here’s the thing: It seems like the players have been brainwashed into not coming out to the 3pt. line unless a player dribble-drives to the basket, which leads to the player splitting the defenders who attempt to trap (usually Bosh and Calderon), and to open driving lanes and subsequent kick-outs for 3s. Case in point, tonight’s game, even the slightest dribble penetration drew attention from ALL 5 players, and they seemed obligated to converge towards the painted area, which initiated ball movement due to the created open looks from 3pt land for whoever was standing behind the arc. I mean, does anyone remember the 3-pointer that Ginobili hit right in front of Jay Triano, the one that lead to Triano calling a timeout almost as soon as the ball went in? Okay, Why in the world is Sonny Weems giving Ginobili so much space to manuever in that sequence? I’ll tell you why, it’s because this so-called defensive scheme calls for everyone to break towards the paint, essentially leave your man so you can help “Protect The House,” as Triano aptly put.
That’s our defence essentially, right now. I agree with Arse that it’s not suited for our personnel. But hey, maybe Reggie Evans helps…at least he’ll help cut down second chance pts. for the other team, and create some for us.
It’s quite simple really, Triano’s calling card since coming into the league is that his teams get lit up from 3pt land.
So far the Raptors are the worst in the league conceding .442 from 3pt territory, with opponents taking about 20 attempts on average against us.
You adjust the 3pt shot @ 150% value of a normal field goal, and realized that at those percentages the effectiveness of hurting us from the arc becomes 0.663! Almost a no brainer. That is not a players fault, to get numbers that high, you need to fault tactics.
Triano makes a great assistant, and a teacher of fundamentals of basketball, but when it comes to strategy he is out of his league.
The worst thing is, we actually have some nice talent this year, a good coach could really do something with these pieces… sadly the strategy shown by Triano thus far into his tenure is on par of the average gym teacher.
I guess the average gym teacher would have been able to make the Raps the most potent offensive team in the NBA after 7 games with 9 new players…I don’t think anybody in the entire league saw that coming.
Keep making excuses… 9 new players, wa wa wa…. its getting old.
I don’t want to hear this crap every year. Whats the point. Next year it will be that we are missing Bosh… Jose and Turk are old.
Did the spurs make excuses when they kicked our ass sans Duncan and Parker? Did Orlando make excuses when they did the same without Vince, Pietrus and Rashard?
Dude I’m not making any excuses. I think they are playing well after only 7 games, with the exception of the defense. Look at all the other teams that are struggling some because of new players, icluding the Spurs, Cavs, Pistons and Wizards. If you think for a second that the Raps were going to be firing on all cylinders right out of the gate, you’re either an etrnal optimist or an idiot. Does their defense need a lot of work…absolutely, but the point I was making above that went so far over your head was that the statement about an average gym teacher being able to produce the same results as Triano…the Raps are 3-4 with the most potent offense in the league. It is not all gloom and doom in Raptorville unless of course you’re a drama queen expecting their record to be 7-0.
I cannot understand why anybody would fault the coaches for the Raptors defence. No matter what scheme a team runs, basic tenants will always remain simple and effective — protect the paint, close out on shooters, keep your man in front of you, box out, rebound…
These are things we teach children, playing basketball on 6 foot rims.
These are the things the Raptors are failing at.
I don’t blame the coaches for schemes. I might… MIGHT blame them for not being able to milk enough energy and hustle out of this squad.
The problem is that the Triano’s strategy is to concede the long range shot, he feels that this shot is a low percentage shot, and hence a sound defensive tactic.
The problem is that an NBA player can hit that shot 70% of the time if he is relaxed and shooting around in the gym. Watch these guys during practice, and you will be amazed how easy they make a 3pter look. If you leave it open for them most of the game it is far from a sound strategy. Those numbers are based on teams actually defending that shot!
Replay a game, and watch how often our players get caught 3 steps behind on a 3pt shooter. It’s almost ridiculous. Teams are shooting unheard of percentages from 3pt land against us. This has been Tirano’s calling card. The stats back it up.
My point is that Triano’s strategy is not to “concede” open threes. To think he wants people to have open shots is silly.
Triano wants players to encourage outside shots, yes, but contesting them as well. Not just letting people get clean looks. The reason being allowing dribble penetration is (in his belief) a worse option because that usually leads to an UN-contested outside shot. Or worse even, layups and dunks.
If the players are giving up uncontested jumpers AND allowing guys to blow past them regardless, I don’t see how that’s the coach’s fault. Steven Hawkings wouldn’t be able to explain the principles of newtonian physics if the class he was teaching was retarded.
This was true with the cast last year, with Marion and without and it is true with the current cast. WE ARE THE WORST when it comes to giving up 3pt shots. Personally, I think our cast is better than that, but what do I know. .442 from the arc to our opponents is a crazy percentage, you should not expect to go far with those results.
There has been no improvement on D since Jay took over. His strategies are simplistic and more geared towards international ball than the reality of the NBA. Our D adjusted for pace has gotten much much worse under Jay than it ever was under Sam.
…but what do I know, Bryan wanted a rookie coach and that is what he got. Do you guys still think its luck that other teams are lighting us up from 3pt land? You think if we ignore it the numbers will eventually even out?
wanted a rookie coach and he has one.
Iavoroni is the defensive coach and has implemented his own defensive strategies. To blame all of this on Triano is short-sighted. I have no idea how they’re going to improve on D, but if they don’t it’s going to be a long season.
finally A worthy rip on wright!! i freaked out and wrote after dallas and i just went nutz on roll call before reading this…WTF!! the worst part about it is that after he looks off bargs(who was hot and didnt see the ball enough) and goes one on one and bricks it!! Triano keeps him in the fricken game WTF!!! he’ll take out demar and marco, but when wright gets rooked by matt bonner for a dunk!! he gets extended mins?? triano is in over his head not to reckognize this…WOW
Wonder none of the intrepid beat reporters on the trip dont pose a question like that to JT during the post game interview? Vague generalities are all you get from them mostly. Afraid of not getting a good seat on the charter perhaps?
The Offensive rebounds in the 1st and 2nd quarters signaled to the Spurs that they were always in the game, even when they were down as much as 10 or 11. Nuff said… show some goddamn effort out there
As talented as they are, the signing of Calderon and Bargnani will leave us soft and running behind drives and boxed out of rebounds.
“Oh Triano, what the hell did you spend training camp on?” – Arsenalist.
A lot of little things scared me tonight. But the big thing that scared me was to feel a strange, nagging, uncomfortable sensation as the game wore on, which climbed over me like a stinking, poisonous fog, that forced me to admit to myself that I can no longer say that I believe that Jay Triano’s ‘plan’ or ‘defensive system’ or ‘schemes’ … is of a style or maybe even of a caliber that is suited to or belongs in the NBA. Saying that here even made me feel a bit queasy.
Where (the goddam hell) is that ‘house’ that was spoken about so much during training camp that was supposedly designed to keep the opposing players from penetrating the paint … or at least, put up SOME resistance, other than just the very odd time that I saw tonight? When they famously taped that ‘house’ on the floor during training camp, did they include great big free-swinging double-doors that seemed to be wherever the Spurs wanted them to be? I’m thinking yes, they must have.
There were a few good things, some of them non-play related … like seeing Reggie Evans walking without a limp (that I could see), even if he did still have that big ‘shoe-thing’ he lumbers around in these days … and it was good to see Bargnani get up relatively unscathed in the first quarter after falling and hitting the floor like a Douglas Fir after being cut down from its roots (that was scary, but actually kind of cool, once he got up, of course), but for the basketball that was played by the Raptors, it wasn’t nearly as fun a game as I had predicted or expected. (And I don’t care that it was tight for much of it. Tonight was not a night that I wanted ‘tight’, unless it was ‘tight’ Raptor defense or a ‘tight’ … never mind.) And by the fourth quarter, I found myself wondering … painfully wondering (and I hope this doesn’t give you the nightmares I know it’s gonna give me) … what would (let’s just say, for example) Ettore Messina have done tonight with this very team, to get them ready to play against Gregg Popovich and the San Antonio Spurs? Would this team with this talent have done things on the floor any differently? And more importantly, might they have been more successful by doing those different things? We’ll never know of course. But better yet, what if Gregg Popovich was coaching on our side instead of theirs? Would there have been a substantially different result? Again, we’ll never know … but I’m feeling a bit rotten about what my guesses are to those questions. For some reason, I began to ask myself these things, tonight … and I kind of wish I hadn’t. I sure hope I feel better about all this in the morning, though. If you feel at all the same, I hope you do, too.
this sounds like a cop-out statement, but I will really have a true personal review on Triano when this year is over, all 82 games through.
Sometimes, I don’t like the crap I’ve written the night before when I should’ve been sleeping. I don’t even agree with it all that much. I was just pissed at not seeing what I had hoped to see. It’s still early.
… in other words, I was honking.
dude, I was actually saying that MY statement about Triano and 82 game review was a cop-out, just to clarify, sorry if you thought that it was about yours…
no, I knew what you meant. I was ‘replying’ to you cuz it was on the thread, but I got what you said. I wasn’t retracting, really … I just read what I wrote in the light of day with fresher eyes and I didn’t care much for what I had written or how it read back to me, so I kind of said so. What bothered me watching last night, probably stemmed from a comment I had read here earlier, about Triano likely being out-coached by Popovich … and during the later parts of the game, those words rang out to me, loud and clear. But Popovich is practically in a league of his own, isn’t he? Today, I’m just hoping that Jay Triano learned something. And maybe the team, as well.
I find it incredibly difficult to disagree with anything said in this game review. So I won’t.
That said, is anything unexpected really happening here? This is a new team, with mostly inexperienced players adjusting to a new system. It will be a while before they start clicking. We all knew that.
When you actually see it happening, it’s frustrating, but the system is sound. The problem is the players have not adjusted to it, yet.
Still, there is nothing more infuriating watching players sag off great shooters like the Raptors were tonight. I mean, that’s something that drives me nuts playing pickup ball, so I can’t imagine a pro doing it. The big problem was that the Raptors were sagging off the shooters (Bonner, Ginobili) and not sagging off the drivers (Jefferson, Hill).
Ginobli’s post game comment:
“Toronto is an excellent offensive team. Defensively, they’re not so good…yet. For 3 quarters we couldn’t stop them…”
When the Spurs- minus Parker and Duncan – score 130 points…its a big FUC@!&! problem.
Look, I think this is more or less exactly what we should have expected, or better. We’ve got the best offense in the league right now, by a wide margin. We’re turning the ball over less than any other team in the league. Our defense is atrocious, sure, but did you really expect anything better? We all knew Jose’s gonna get blown by several times a game. We knew Bargs can’t defend quick players on the perimeter. And we knew Turk is a below-average defender. When you hear people say “he’s a good system guy,” that means that for him to look good, he’s got to be in a system with people who are actually good defenders.
I feel like a lot of people believe that good defense is 70% “hustle” or “effort”. People seem to think the same thing about rebounding. That’s just not the case. If it were, good rebounders’ totals would go down in the playoffs, and bad rebounders’ totals would go up, and that is not what the data show. We just have bad defenders(and rebounders). Get over it. Right now, our offense is better than it’s going to be by the end of the year, and our defense is worse. We aren’t going to see any massive improvements, though. This is the team we’ve got. I say sit back and enjoy the beauty of our offense (because it has been quite beautiful). Just watch the game with a good stiff drink in your hand, and take a swig every time something awful happens on defense. It dulls the pain.
BOSH 32-10 WTF and lost:
- Bosh talking about rebounds (halftime he has ONE!)
-4th quarter 9.13 TOR 103 SA 100
Bargnani replaced by Bosh
1 ft missed
1 J shot missed
2 SA consecutive OffReb
1 J shot missed
1 ft missed
1 J shot missed
+ 2 DifReb
4th quarter 3.37 TOR 110 SA 120
Are you kidding me ?
So are you saying that Bosh is a choker? B…b…but he can’t be, he’s our Superstar MVP and we should pay him 20 mill a year.
No doubt there are many people, even on this board, who would think a 135-130 win is terrific.
PFs can sometimes win you games, but they are really meant to fundamentally keep you in ball games with their rebounding and inside scoring. Bosh did his job, we need clutch shooting talent on our 2 Guard position BADLY.
Our next 3 years into the future must be focused on developing and scouting for new PG, SF, and a defensive C(a US center please) if we will keep Bosh or Bargnani. With Jim Kelly still scouting, I have no hope.
“a defensive C from the US” You mean like a Roy Hibbert??
I saw that too… but I don’t think that pins the loss on Bosh. He has been amazing. I love his newfound decisiveness with the ball. Bargs’ and Turk’s presence on the court has left him with single coverage every game and he has taken massive advantage.
I like Bargnani with the 2nd unit. He and Amir have nice chemistry. I hate Bosh and Amir together. That combo may have lost the game.
I don’t like the pump-fake, one-dribble and pull-up thing that Bargnani has been doing. It seems way lower percentage than taking the 3 and I’d prefer to see him either take it to the rack or get set before firing. Even moreseo when the opposing bigs are McDyess and Bonner. When he’s set, Bargnani is a sick shooter. I couldn’t believe that SA let him shoot set, mid-range jumpers. He avoids contact – the D needs to make him finish in traffic.
The Raps were on a roll both offensively AND (yes, amazingly) defensively when Triano opted to put Bosh back in the game. That was a terrible decision. Finally, FINALLY, he had a group that was working together as a team and he fucked it all up by putting Bosh back in the game. I don’t care if you have to sit your star player, you do whatever it takes to win the game.
It sometimes looks like Calderon is setting picks on himself when he guesses wrong on the perimeter. Damn.
I know I’m going to get some heat for this but…..
Every time Bosh scores 30 + we seem to find a way to blow the w.
Yes Bosh has been a monster,but if we cant beat a top tier west coast team with two studs out?
So, next year Bosh is making max $$$$$ will it make a diference …will we be beating a team like a powerful west coast team missing two guns?
Thats the 20+ million dollar question…
Even if we manage to resign Bosh where do we see this team ,with no possible remaining funds available for any other possible upgrades.
I know its very early and a lot of us have foreseen this road trip for what it was.a learning experience.
Having said that,what have we learned so far.
Arse,lets see a report card,I know its early but lets start by grading the dont fuck with our house defense !!!
So, Raps fans, which of these two statements do you agree with more?
(1) When the offense goes stagnant and everyone else is standing around, Bosh takes it upon himself to grind out points by getting to the free throw line.
(2) When Bosh takes it upon himself to grind out points by getting to the free throw line, the offense goes stagnant and everyone else is standing around.
Myself, I’m not sure, but it’s something that always seems to coincide with these opponents’ comebacks…
Offense is not the problem…perhaps its the energy spent on offense thats hurting the defense ?
That correlation is suspect at best. And, it is (1). I can’t believe we can blame Bosh for getting the ball in the low post and getting high percentage shots.
If we were the Utah Jazz I can guarantee that Sloan would be more than happy with Bosh getting to the line and grinding out. But, at the same time, the other players do not take it upon themselves to stand around for no good reason either.
- – - – -
As a fan of everything that Bosh has done this season, I am kind of hoping he goes to another city. He deserves better than what some fans think of his game. Bosh on Utah instead of Boozer? Wow. Bosh and Millsap on the floor together, with D-Will? Amazing.
Bosh and Wade in MiamI? Awesome.
He deserves better for sure. He is giving some pretty mediocre stuff a shot at something but it would appear they are not interested.
As a fan of everything Bosh has done …How do we offer him max dollars without effecting other oportunities to better the team ? What kind of comment was that go to Miami !!!!!my point was,we are not winning even though we are having these types of performances from Bosh…take your rose colored glasses off.
‘How do we offer him max dollars without effecting other oportunities to better the team?’
BC gave Bargs and Turk’s big money with no hesitation. Calderon is locked up with a sweet deal as well as Jack for lesser dollars but still a ysignificant investment.
Yet our worried about locking up Bosh for ‘max’ money as it wil lprevent you from improving the other areas of the team? lol
You pay your best player. The supporting cast is who you move around and try and find other opportunities to better the team.
Correct.
I have always been against paying someone the max, unless you are willing to go into the luxury tax area, even though they might deserve it.
The resaon is one of economics
No team in the NBA wins with only one superstar or all star caliber player. In fact it usually takes three all star caliber players to win but there are exceptions to the three rule. That is why Lebron will never win in Cleveland unless they can find at least one another all star to play alongside him.
1. The Spurs won with Manu, Duncan and Parker
2. The Lakers with Kobe and Pau
3. The Heat with Wade and Shaq
4. The Celtics with Garnett, Allen and Pierce.
Note that in all cases all of these guys can play above average on both the offense and defense.
Wasn’t Mo Williams on the All Star team last year…oh yeah,he was.
Barely (he got in because of an injury) and his playoff performance proved to everyone that he shouldn’t even have been there.
Barely…what kind of stupid argument is that. He got in because Jameer Nelson was injured yes, but that doesn’t mean he was barley an All Star. And the comment above stated “all star caliber.” which Mo Wiliams was…and a bad playoff doesn’t negate this…moron.
Hows that working for ya
Bang on! sleepz. For Bryan to pay mediocre players huge money, then he needs to pay Bosh max money for him to stay. However, if I were Bosh, I will leave the Raps(even if the Raps offered me max money as they are not going to get a championship for a long time and will always have mediocre players playing for them).
I believe even Bosh should go. He does not deserve to play for this team of mediocre players. This team will not win a championship in gazillion years. Bosh should not be like AI or Kidd who are still trying to get their first ring in the NBA at an old age. Can’t blame LeBron too if he leaves the Cavs, he is not going to get a ring there. I would like to see Bosh on a Kobe, Lebron or Wade team. He should not waste his talent with the Raps, trying to be loyal to the organization(as it appears that Bryan can’t put a solid supporting cast around Bosh).
Bosh doesn’t get the ball on every possession, and who cares if the offence doesn’t move as much when he has the ball, more often then not he’s getting high percentage shots or going to the line.
The officiating was terrible. This was like the preseason. All you had to do was breath on Manu and he would go into one of his I was fouled acts. The guy should be playing in Hollywood. Not that he isn’t one of the best players in the league, but ever time someone comes close to him when he is taking a shot he fall down or waves his arms in the air while letting out a scream after the shot drawing a foul.
Other than that I thought the officating was pretty balanced but way to many whistles.
I have seen a lot more contact in WNBA games without fouls being called.
Rule #1 about officiating. Swallow the whistle and let the guys play unless and until they start drawing blood!!!
At the end of the 3Q when there was about 10 seconds left and SA had 3 on the clock, i had this feeling Ginobli would sucker Weems into a bad fould on a toufgh three.
That was classic Manu and so was the one where he went up for shot in an awkward position was not fouled and his shot wasn’t blocked but flayed his arms in the arm, let out a primal scream and dropped the ball to the court before falling onto the court.
He should have been an actor
The raps saw an under-staffed team and thought they can just outscore them. when they realized they have to take them seriously it was too late. now the spurs have fire and the crowd behind them; to counter, we resort to 18 and out jumpshots. you have to set the tone early on the road or bad stuff happens. home teams always have the potential to go on a fourth quarter push no matter who is on the court. this game reminds me of when we were understaffed and roko went crazy at home in the fourth quarter vs. the spurs. the raps have to get focused. they are a talented squad, now apply the technical with the psychological and you would assume 45+ wins.
I wish I could pin this one on Calderon. I really do. Then there would be a way to fix this defence. But no. Wright was getting beat, Belinelli, Jack, Turk, everyone.
It is hard to “protect the house” against San Antonio because they space the floor so well between McDyess and Bonner’s shooting ability, and Jefferson and Ginobili being among the best in the game at driving inside. Their team picked apart every attempt we made. We close out on midrange shots, and they got the boards. We concede the shot, and they got it in. We have not found a way to contest and board.
I think the Raps should have showed zone a couple of times last night. Find a way to keep our bigs from roaming out the perimeter.
Look at what happens when Calderon brings the ball up, and we run our pick and roll. If Calderon tries driving, 9 times out of ten he can’t get all the way to the net. Is it because he is slow? I don’t think so – in fact he looks damn quick on at least 40% of those picks. No, opposing teams constantly push him into other defenders, show him bodies and he has to pass through traffic, leading to usually enough time to recover. Now, we happen to be a tremendously offensively talented team, and we score anyway. But, if we could just do 75% of what I saw happening with other teams, we should be okay.
Maybe we need Bargnani to become a stay at home defender? He does well against slow bigs, maybe because he gets to stay around the rim? The problem with that is then he becomes the primary rebounder, as Bosh becomes the one to roam around sealing off the midrange.
From Dime Magazine:
“Without Tony Parker or Tim Duncan in the lineup, Gregg Popovich had that, “Do I HAVE to coach this game?” look on his face as Spurs/Raptors got underway. And apparently Pop was experimenting by fielding the first-ever NBA starting five that was all-around worse than the second unit: Can you tell us you’d definitely take starters George Hill, Keith Bogans, Mike Finley, Richard Jefferson and Theo Ratliff over Manu Ginobili, Roger Mason, Matt Bonner, DeJuan Blair and Antonio McDyess? …”
http://dimemag.com/2009/11/stevie-franchise/
lol
I love Pops. He looks like a homeless man, but he really commands respect from his players. Ginobili comes off the bench; his subs play more minutes than the starters. No matter the personnel, everyone plays an efficient system. Just phenomenal.
But look, we are down on Triano because the team is struggling on defence. Well, San Antonio is going through a very bad spell themselves defensively and on the glass. I am pretty sure every Raps fan would give Pops the benefit of the doubt and give him time. Let’s do the same with Triano, even though it is hard to do. I am far more eager to throw Iavaroni out, then Triano.
Pop is a great coach no doubt about it.
Triano’s problem is other than Johnson and maybe CB4 right now he has no one who really knows how to and is capbable of playing defense.
I would still try and move Bargnani and Calderon for two guys who can and are willing to play defense even it means giving up some offense.
Phoenix east my ass!, good job building Oakland east, Brian.
It’s becoming painfully obvious that the root of the problem lies with Calderon and Bargnani.
can we trade them for Devon Harris and Brook Lopez + filler??
BC would get laughed off the phone if he brought that to NJ.
I will really like the Brook Lopez or even Andris Biedrins center on the Raps. It is clear and obvious that Bargs is not a traditional center. Move him and Calderon and get decent “defense first” mentality kind of PG and center. We only need 2 scorers on an NBA team, the others are for defense and putting points on the board, when the play of the 2 scorers has become predictable(like Oakley said).
So now we have a “defense first” PG and C playing with DD, Bosh and Turkouglu. So I am assuming Bosh and Turk are our scorers…and this team is going to make us contenders…whetever!
Is it too late to try and bring Bowen out of retirement? As much as I HATE the guy, he could be so useful to us, even though he is old and all. On our team, he is probably a starter.
How about Rodman?
Just kidding
I think Bill Russell of today would be more effective on D than those “players” I watched yesterday
Bargnani is not the problem (for all of those who lump him in with Calderon). Yes, he still misses some defensive assignments and he’s not a natural rebounder. But he actually complements Bosh quite well and has played decent to good defense against slower, stronger bigs. He definitely can’t handle Jefferson (but name me a power forward/centre who can). He fights for position down low (and scored at will on jefferson early) but too often gets ignored by Jack/Wright. He then starts to drfit to the perimeter where he’ll at least see the ball. Given that he’s a better shooter than most of the team, I can’t really blame him.
The real problem last night (as already mentioned) was horrible perimeter defense by our smalls and poor rebounding (because the bigs were constantly out of position because they had to cut off penetration). Hedo can’t jump, Bosh had at least 2 rebounds torn out of his hands and was out-jumped 3 times by Bonner on one sequence where the ball eventually went out of bounds off of him.
Add in Wright’s feeble attempts to go one on three far too often and you have a winnable game that slips away.
Wsg is right on. Would the raps have performed as badly if we had one of the elite coaches in the leauge? Probably not. But let’s face it, this game was an aboration. The raptors defence is suspect but gad damn! That was ridiculous. Triano is not the best coach in the leauge, or so it appears, having said that, how do you implement a working defensive strategy when your starting point guard is nicknamed the Spanish seive, and your centre has no lateral quickness… At least on defence?
Its hard to say, but perhaps the best thing the raptors can do defensively is trade Jose once his game improves a bit, doing so would go a long way in relieving the defensive pressure on the rest of the group. I admit such a move might be bad for the offense, but are we going to win many games giving up 130 points to the eldest team in the leauge sans their 2 all stars? I get chills thinking about how Tony Parker would have feasted on Jose
You’re right Jose sucks and so does Bargnani, Turk, DD and the second unit. Bosh is playing all right beacause he wants to make max money…so I say we blow up the entire fucking team and start re-building so all the fucking whiners out there will really have something to cry about!!!
…that’s what they did.
Turk, Bargnani, and Derozan don’t suck. The second unit doesn’t suck.
Calderon does. But we knew that years ago, didn’t we? He’s never played defense, his shot is streaky at best, and his inability to do basic PG duties (ie: pick n roll, pass to bosh, etc.) speaks for itself.
Calderon is not a bad player at all. Calderon is a top 8 point guard every year. For the past few seasons, Calderon’s shooting percentages have been tremendously high, much higher than almost any other point guard in the NBA. His assist percentages (the number of offensive possessions that end with an assist for the player while he’s on the floor) have been in the 40’s, with the top point guards, for the past few years. Calderon’s Offensive Rating (points produced per 100 possessions while the player is on the floor) has been near the top of the entire NBA for the past 2 years, and has been higher than his Defensive Rating, which indicates that the Raptors while Calderon is on the floor are scoring more than they are allowing.
In my view, Calderon is superior to two all-stars from last year, Jameer Nelson and Mo Williams. Both are bad defensive players. I’d also point out that with the rules being what they are, it is impossible to stop any point guard, and that’s how the league wants it.
Don’t forget that Calderon is out of shape and rusty right now.
In YOUR view> “Calderon is superior to two all-stars from last year, Jameer Nelson and Mo Williams.”
What are you smoking pal?!?
” his shot is streaky at best”…how ridiculous. Over the last 2 years he has averaged over 40% from 3PT, 50% FG and 90+% FT…yeah pretty fucking streaky, especially for a point guard.
The problem with the Raptors is low BBall IQ, and guys who aren’t ashamed or embarrased when they lose.
If they don’t start taking pride in what they do, and take offense to the fact that they LOSE more than they should, they’ll never put in the effort to WIN.
Scott.
Currently, before tonight’s ball games began, the Raptors were the top offensive team in basketball, producing 118.1 points per 100 possessions. Unfortunately, they were also the worst defensive team, giving up 120.3 points per 100 possessions.
Last night, Triano was asked after the game whether the defensive scheme was flawed. The question had barely been asked when Triano snapped “Oh, there’s nothing wrong with the scheme”. That struck me as an almost desperate protest. The way the Raps are currently playing, 3 or 4 guys get bunched together and the ball gets kicked out for an open shot. The rotations and switches are too complicated and these guys aren’t in good enough shape to make them happen.
I wonder if playing a simple zone or man defense with no switching or rotating or double-teaming wouldn’t result in better defense at this point. Stay with your man, or challenge any shot in your area, box out, allow the bad guys one shot. Simple.
also, for the future, a Calderon for Hinrich trade works straight up. Hinrich is a much better defender and a much worse offensive player than Calderon, so the deal might work for both teams.
Raptors can’t seem to cross over the hurdle and beat teams on the ropes in buildings were they haven’t seen much success in the past.
Raptors stink in Memphis (2 & 6 – who knows why?), Dallas and San Antonio (because they are great teams over the past decade and beat up on teams like the Raps)
Maybe it’s just in their heads that they aren’t supposed to win there? So they don’t bother trying on defense having already lost before they step on the court?
Not enough early season confidence?
Now Chicago is a team they should know can be beat!
Lets face it guys, Calderon is making almost 9-10 mill a year over the next few years. This is the same amount that top PG in this league are getting paied. considering his reputation now :) He is untradeable.
No wonder no ones wants to play in Toronto.
Holy crap guys.
The reality is we do have 9 new players. Our main free agent was injured for parts of training camp. One of our key acquisitions is sitting on the bench (the guy that can rebound). Out of all the players we picked up only 2 can really play D. We have a “new” head coach, we have a tenured assistant and the former head coach of Memphis.
What did you guys really expect?
That we’d be 7-0 to start the season? That we would click and gel in a matter of a whole month?
Let’s be realistic and take more of an optimistic approach to the season. It really isn’t going that BAD. Bad would be an 0-7 start and Bosh or Bargnani had a season ending injury.
This team has 3-4 defenders and none of them are lock down guys and considering we picked up one guy that can really play “D” why are we surprised to see the same crap as last year?
To all the Bosh and Calderon haters, if Bosh wasn’t on the team to start the season we would be 0-7. Calderon is starting to play better he is never going to be amazing on defense but as far as an effective ball handler, sharp shooter and passer theres only a few ahead of him. Don’t forget there really aren’t a lot of amazing defensive point guards in the league either.
Trust me I hate excuses and I hate hearing the same old crap but I’m not going to bash this team and give up on them.
YET.
i would like one Canadian pro team, hockey, baseball, basketball or any that i missed. to think outside the box, and spend the money or required resources to put a quality product i can be proud of. The American teams do it. regardless of the state of the ” loonie ” the leafs still rake in a fortune due to devoted fans including myself. But……there,s something to be said about killer instincts, which the Americans have.