Things aren’t exciting enough in pre-season so we’re going to create a scandal – Bowling Gate. Did Triano “hustle” Jack? Were Jack’s ulterior motives at play as he intentionally lost to try and appease Triano? Did Marco Belinelli kick the ball thinking he was playing soccer? Did Evans aggravate his foot injury by dropping a size 18 on it? Did Amir Johnson insist that he bowl in a lane without gutters? All questions to be pondered on another dead day. That and Triano talking about all kinds of stuff.
Call me a tribal honker but I think Sonny Weems is great. Here’s what him and DeRozan revealed:
- He scored a 96 and a 68, DeRozan claims it was a 32 and a 35.
- Weems’ record against DeRozan in Madden is 5-0. Weems is the best dunker on the team.
- Hopla going 140/141 forces a man like Weems to listen.
- North Dakota is the worst city ever (even though it’s really a state).
Here’s a bullet-point summary of what Triano said on Wednesday:
- “We had a very intense practice. Lots of scrimmage, lot of breakdrown of drills. It inspired some of guys which is what we were trying to do.”
- Wright went through everything today just like every else and there was no swelling. He’ll be ready to play on Friday. He’s going to get him a lot of minutes because there’s only one game left.
- They’re trying to keep the weight off of Reggie Evans’ foot so the tendons can heal.
- Wright is our best defender since Belinelli, DeRozan and Weems all have much less experience. Wright is very coachable and plays extremely hard which makes it easy to give him the nod. Just because he’s the best defender doesn’t mean he’ll play the most minutes.
- The rotations in the regular season will vary based on matchups and health. Nothing will be set in stone.
- The players have been educated about the new system and now he’s just drilling it into them practically.
- The players aren’t 100% committed yet to the defensive system because they’re doing things as they’re told, not how they feel. He equates it to “learning how to run, you have to walk first and then jog. We’re probably at the jogging stage.”
- Other than Hedo and Bosh, all other guys are ready to play the minutes they’re going to play in the regular season.
- He is one of the few coaches that dedicates part of their practice to weight lifting, this will pay off later.
- Teamwork and conditioning are the two key things to improve because we’re missing assignments because of fatigue. We have to improve our endurance level in order to play the defensive system we have.
- All the Raptors live in the downtown core.
- He doesn’t want players looking ahead to the schedule, they need to take it one possession at a time. He doesn’t even know the first few games on the schedule because he just doesn’t look ahead.
Here’s something from Wright who obviously hasn’t had this much attention shown to him since…well…umm….ever? He did say this about DeRozan and Weems:
“I think half of the challenge is him being a rookie and not knowing what to expect on this level. I have to make it hard on him in practice, especially when he’s going to be out there when I’m not out there because one of us is going to have to set the tone. I can’t go in with his guy already hot, and he cant go in when my guy’s hot. I have to make it tough on him and push him. I have to push Sonny as well. He has well in pre-season and I expect him to continue to play well. I think we have a lot of talent and depth on the roster. We all just have to be ready to play.”
Bosh vs Bargnani. It’s unbelievable how lopsided that poll is. Sure, some might have misunderstood the question but I think we can make one conclusion from the results so far: Most people think that Bargnani has more tools that could help him become a better player than Bosh. It doesn’t mean that he’s going to be better than Bosh, it’s just that he has the potential to be. Once you look at it in that light the results make a little more sense.
More later.
56 Raps
“It doesn’t mean that he’s going to be better than Bosh, it’s just that he has the potential to be. Once you look at it in that light the results make a little more sense.”
Isn’t that what you meant with the poll question?
Bargnani will never be better then Bosh. He may have a higher cieling based on his abilities, but at this point in his career, no-one was talking about Bosh’s potential, just that he’s a stud.
They are at different points in their career. Bargnani’s potential could make him better than Bosh when he reaches the point in HIS career that Bosh is at NOW. Your “at this point in his career” says it all.
The team is showing good chemistry.
Vets helping guys who will take their minutes if successful is a great sign.
I know it’s stupid to think highly of a player before he has even played a minute as a Raptor, but I gotta say I love Antoine Wright so far. He seems like the kind of guy that’s always looking out for his teammates. I can’t imagine there are many players around that are that conscious about their replacements as they sub in/out of the game. I really hope he is as good as he sounds.
I’ve been pushing for Wright to start since we acquired him. He has experience guarding starting 2’s, and that’s something you need on a starting line up (especially ours). Unfortunately we haven’t seen him play a preseason game, but if he’s in Dallas form I say we start him over DeRozan.
I agree… I think the added experience will be a benifit if we are looking for a winning season (again if he plays as expected)
I just want to make sure Derozan gets his minutes to though, because he has looked good so far.
“Just because he’s the best defender doesn’t mean he’ll play the most minutes.” Oh wait, that be exactly what it better mean, if we want to win, like, now.
“Once you look at it in that light the results make a little more sense.” Very little.
re. the poll – bosh’s ‘ceiling,’ even if he’s already reached it (i.e. he is now as good as he’s ever going to be) far (FAR FAR FAR) exceeds VL’s potential ceiling, assuming we’re talking about all-around game. offensively, i’ll concede that he (VL) likely has a slightly higher ceiling, but i think we sometimes overstate how good he can be offensively because he can score in a greater variety of ways than most 7-footers.
that being said, let’s pretend that VL’s peak season output is 25 ppg (i highly doubt he’ll ever hit that, but whatever). then let’s assume that he improves his rebounding to 7/game, and becomes a better defender. assuming all those come true, that he achieves his full potential, and that the above represents his ceiling – how is that ‘better’ than what bosh has done for most of his career? the difference is, basically, that bosh has already achieved 97% of his ceiling, and we’re hoping that VL’s still around 75%. those voting for VL are banking on not only him achieving his assumed potential, but that that potential exceeds what bosh has already accomplished.
doubtful.
If Andrea has another big team mate with whom the chemistry is better than with CB4 he has a chance to exceeds CB4 top ceiling.
You see, you just proved why your own point of view is flawed, with the following statements:
“those voting for VL are banking on not only him achieving his assumed potential”
No, we are not, because he doesn’t need to ever actually achieve his full potential to HAVE that potential right now. We are talking about the potential itself, not about achieving it.
“doubtful.”
Exactly! Doubtful is not IMPOSSIBLE. So by your own words, it is possible, but not likely. But the question was not “How likely is Bargnani to achieve his full potential.” The question was about whose potential is higher (even if Bargs achieving his potential is doubtful).
ok, the way i see it is, between VL & bosh, who has the capabability to become the better player, no? well, we already now that bosh is one of the top players in the league, so even though he’s already fulfilled most of his potential & his ceiling has pretty much been reached, i still feel that what he has already accomplished exceeds what VL ever will.
‘No, we are not, because he doesn’t need to ever actually achieve his full potential to HAVE that potential right now. We are talking about the potential itself, not about achieving it.’
my man, potential is meaningless unless it’s fulfilled…something bosh has already done. the issue isn’t potential in & of itself, it’s a matter of the height of their respective ceilings, and the likelihood that those ceilings are reached. in bosh’s case, the ceiling is very high, and he’s already achieved it (or close to it). in VL’s case, the ceiling is also high, but i simply don’t see his peak as being as high as what bosh has already accomplished. the argument isn’t who has the farthest to go to reach their ceiling – in that case, VL’s a hands-down winner, but that’s based on what he has yet to do (& the fact he’s had a mediocre 1st 3 yrs), vs. what bosh has already done.
Correct. And in other words, Bargs would have to get into the top 3 or 4 MVP voting. LOL.
@yertu damkule:
“my man, potential is meaningless unless it’s fulfilled”
I agree. But that was not the question of the poll. Again, the question was not “Who is the better player?”, or “Who will be the better player for an entire career?” or even “Who will meet their potential?”
The question was “Who has a higher ceiling.” So the question may be meaningless, yes, but that IS the question. You can’t agree to answer THAT question by answering a different question (which is what you are doing right now).
Are you saying that there is not even a 0.1% chance that Bargnani has even a single season of being Dirk Nowitzki good? If he is that good for even a single season, that is MVP caliber, and better than Bosh will ever be. On that note…
@nadir:
Bosh has NEVER been a top 5 MVP candidate (with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Paul, and Howard dominating those slots now and for year to come). Nowitzki has (and won), and that is about how good Bargnani CAN be.
Also, I don’t recall Bosh being anything more than maybe a top 7 or 8 in the MVP race. I could be wrong.
‘Are you saying that there is not even a 0.1% chance that Bargnani has even a single season of being Dirk Nowitzki good? If he is that good for even a single season, that is MVP caliber, and better than Bosh will ever be. On that note…’
if it comes to that, then yes, i am saying that there is ZERO chance that VL ever has as good a season as Dirk’s best campaigns (i assume that’s what you’re referring to, rather than to dirk’s first couple seasons?). but the reason i didn’t go in that direction is because i don’t believe that nowitzki represents VL’s ceiling. maybe a couple years ago that would have been the case (though lofty), but now, there’s a big enough sample of work to draw from to indicate that VL will NEVER produce at Dirk’s level, either offensively or rebounding. defense is something of a wash, and VL may well turn out to be considerably better in that regard to Dirk (though, that’s not really saying much…). a more realistic ceiling for VL is probably okur.
And I respect your opinion, and will not even argue against it.
But for those readers who are outraged at the results of the poll: all that really means is that most people think that Bargnani can be roughly around Nowitzki good (maybe with lesser rebounding but better defence and passing).
Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances to a player’s slow development (e.g., Bargnani’s development was hindered by Sam’s treatment of and role for him during his second year). Look at Steve Nash: he took 9 years to become this good, and had about 3 peek years.
I believe Bargnani might be on a similar career path (only about 3 peek years, and a decent though not amazing career overall). Apparently, so do many other visitors to this website.
But Okur only averages 17 ppg and 7.7 rpg. VL averaged more than that in the second half of last season, for ppg, so he’s already surpassed Okur, for offensive ceiling.
I understand tempering your enthusiasm, but not to the point of sounding silly.
In Okur’s best season, he averaged 18 ppg and 9 rpg, and, in fact, topped out at 19 ppg per 36 mpg, as compared to Bargnani’s 17.6 ppg. Not sure where you’re getting the information that Bargnani scored more than Okur. There’s sounding silly, and then there’s making stuff up.
He’s 25. How do you know what his ceiling is?
Yikes.
AB was born on Oct 26/85 and in my calculations he will be 24 years old on Oct 26/09 . I am quite sure most experts will agree that he has at least 2-3 years to reach his full potential.
How do we put a $$$$$$ figure on Bosh ?
Aldridge just re signed 5 yr,65 Milion with incentives
Carreer #”s
ppg 15.4
reb 6.8
bl 1.1
to 1.32
Bargs (5yr,50 Million ?)
Carreer #”s
ppg 12.4
reb 4.3
bl 0.8
to 1.49
Bosh $$$$$$$ max money ?
Carreer #”s
ppg 19.6
reb 9.2
bl 1.2
to 2.18
Do we take max dollars and find ourselves two good players ?
Great conversation …..
Is Bosh worth max dollars? Probably not. However, he’s at the next level down, and gets to prove to everyone this year that I’m wrong. Do I want him back with the Raptors next year? Absolutely. He’s our best player, by far. This next month is critical for the future of our franchise. If we’re at .500 in November, we’ll do better the rest of the season. If we’re too far below .500, there’ll be some very important decisions to be made by BC & CB by the trading deadline … We ned to hit the ground running …
Unless the player is still on a rookie contract, frequently the best player on any given team is earning max money or close to it. It’s not just the franchise players that get max (there’s only 4 or 5 of them), it’s also the players at the next level that get it too. That’s the reason that CB4 will likely get a max contract. I agree he’s not a franchise player but he’s easily in the next level.
Also, I think it’s a little unfair to use Barg’s career numbers for contract value. He’s clearly not being paid based on what he did for his first two years. He’s being rewarded for a clear improvement last year and because the Raptors think that he can continue to improve over the next few years. Whether or not he will is a separate issue.
Good luck. Mythical calculations of ‘finding’ good players that are going to come running to out team and not overpay them are highly unlikely
When Bosh is referred to as ‘not a max contract player’ I believe what people are saying, in effect, is that he is not as dominant as Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Wade, and a handful of other players. Do you think if The Raptors don’t sign Bosh to a max contract, that a player of the calibre of those listed will take the max dollars The Raptors have available? If he is traded for two good NBA players how is that going to make The Raptors better? I say the answer to both questions is not likely. The best bet for the franchise is to keep Bosh and continue the quest of acquiring quality complimentary talent.
Acquiring a franchise player like a Lebron is generally a result of luck than strategy – generally you have to be bad enough to have a lottery pick in a year where there is a franchise player and you have to win the lottery – things you can’t plan on.
Good observation.
Everyone seems to think these handful of franchise changing players grows on tress and are ripe for the picking or that 2 good players = 1 really good player. I don’t buy into those theories as typically you want the best talent you can have on your roster not a dispersement or balance of marginally or relatively talented players. Those type of players get you marginal results.
Thanks.
You would think Rap fans would think back to the VC trade to realize many decent players is worth well less than one very good player.
Do you think Minnesotta has benefited from The Garnett trade … even though they received something like 4-5 young players in return?
too bad the Raps received 0 decent players in the VC trade…..
Uh just so you know not all the raps live in the Downtown core. Bosh and Jack live in the far west end, past sunnyside, High Park etc. José lives uptown up at StClair I believe. If you live DT anything East of River St., North of Bloor or West of Bathurst isn’t “downtown core.” I can see if you live in Markham, NY, Etobicoke etc thinking differently but you are all just annoying 905ers to us! (kidding, kidding! mostly).
I used to work in real estate, which is why I know where they live. I’m not a stalker, at least not full fledged!
Can we make this simpler, please. Anything inside the 427, 401, DVP is the downtown core to the rest of us annoying 905ers.
if I can’t get there on a streetcar inside 20 minutes, it ain’t downtown.
I know this is way off topic, but did you see lbj’s block on rondo when he tried his fake behind the back pass layup move lastnight. wow!
since bargs + bosh cancel eachother out because of their similar games, who would be the better pf if they had a guy like kendrick perkins (for example) as the center?
I think that’s the $64,000 question for the Raptors right now.
Right now, Bosh would be better but I actually believe that if Bargs realized his full potential he’d be better than Bosh with a big ogre like Perkins doing the heavy lifting inside with him. If Bosh improves defensively this year, I’ll hand the title over to him but right now I think that’s what has people leaning towards Bargs in things like the poll.
Part of what made Bargs attractive on draft night ‘06 was that he was insurance at PF if Bosh walked. Part of me wonders if Triano and Colangelo aren’t thinking about letting Bosh walk (with something coming back in a S & T) at the end of this season. They haven’t made the decision yet but they’re entertaining it. Bosh might have to earn his future Raptors paycheque this year. For other teams, it might just be a given.
The problem is, even if Bosh fetches good value in a S & T, name a Kendrick Perkins type who is realistically available. I’m not sure I can.
I think both Bosh and Bargs would look better with a Perkins at the C. Rebounding, strength and defense are no longer that big of a concern for either anymore.
Bosh and Bargs have such similar style games that they both really require a true big in the middle to compensate for what they lack. It was the problem with the Raps last year (to my estimation anyways… ohh yeah and the shitty bench), and its a concern for me this year.
Wasn’t O’Neal, even on his 2 gimpy knees, a defensive presence. Couldn’t rebound all that well but he was the traditional centre, defensively. Didn’t work that well either but perhaps that’s because the focus was on him and Bosh. Maybe he should have been paired with Bargs.
I thought O’Neal traditionally a PF?
Who is better Dirk or Bosh?
if you say Dirk…wouldn’t Bargnani have a higher ceiling then Dirk due to his blocking and passing ability? therefore Bargnani is better than both Bosh and Dirk (based on skill set and potential)
O’Neal wasn’t the problem last season. It was that, outside of Bosh and O’Neal, not one Raptor would step up consistently. The O’Neal thing is considered a failure, but for the wrong reasons. If O’Neal was on this years team, with their depth and scoring ability, the result would be very different. Yes, he got hurt again, but by that time, the dye was cast.
And Bargnani certainly doesn’t have a higher ceiling than Dirk because Dirk was always a good rebounder and half decent post player. Plus, he got to the line at an excellent rate, despite taking so many outside shots. Bargnani is not a good enough defender or passer to make up for his weaknesses.
Perhaps O’Neal the player wasn’t the problem last season, but O’Neal the contract was. As you say, if he was here with this year’s depth we would have been in a much better position. But we can’t have that depth thanks to his ridiculously large contract. Hedo’s contract is less than half of O’Neal’s, and that’s why this season we can afford to have players like Jarret Jack and Amir Johnson instead of Roko Ukic and Hassan Adams.
So in short, O’Neal was the problem last season. Trading for him meant having to rely on him and Bosh to be the ones to carry the team. That couldn’t happen, not with their injury history + Calderon going down.
O’Neal’s contract is irrelevenat to the argument though (well I guess taking up 22 mil is always relevant but….)
The O’neal we saw here was not the O’neal of 3/4 years ago. His shot blocking and strength did offer some presence in the paint (but not nearly the same as in the past… and not nearly what Perkins has offered atleast last year), however his mobility was very limited. Plus the offense was stagnat as he never gave up the ball once it landed in his hands. (Not to mention it meant inconsitent minutes for Bargs)
I want the Vanilla Gorilla, Joel Pryzbilla.
Easily my favorite Center in the league.
His rebounding numbers are off the hook, he plays good D and help D, makes a reasonable salary, and knows his role.
“It doesn’t mean that he’s going to be better than Bosh”
Pfft! Bosh is not a max contract player for god sake. I’ll rather pick Al Harrington in 2010 than signing that pussy Chiristine Bosh.
Colangelo should consider acquiring Amare because this guy is tougher than Bosh. He could fill the Center position and put Bargnani to the Power Forward which is his natural position.
First of all, who the hell is VL? Pet peeve of mine using initials.
As for Bargnani, I don’t understand how a guy who has one single skill that is above average (shooting) can apparently have more potential than a 22-10 guy. I also don’t understand how a guy who might be one of the worst rebounders, pound for pound, in the entire league, can be considered a future star.
Bargnani does one thing well. Shoot. That’s it. Besides being a horrible rebounder, he’s below average in the post for a 7-footer, average, at best, defensively, and he rarely creates shots for himself (more than 75% of his shots last year were assisted). Bargnani will never be considered a better player than Bosh if he can’t rebound the ball at even an average rate, and there’s no indication he will ever do that. Bosh has a better chance at becoming an above average defender and 26 ppg scorer than Bargnani has of becoming an average rebounder and good post player.
VL was a nickname Arsenalist gave Bargnani, last season, which stands for Vegetable Lasagna (Seinfeld reference).
And here I am thinking it stood for Voshon Lenard… what? It made perfect sense to me! Former 6′4″ raptor player that could shoot stuck in a 7-footers body? Ah w/e…
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, nearly 3/4 of the visitors to this site disagree with you.
One of the reasons why is that you are immensely downplaying Bargnani’s abilities. For one, he has already become an above average one-on-one defender (much better against big centers than Bosh).
Secondly, he doesn’t just shoot well, he SCORES well (and increasingly so). His offensive arsenal is still expanding, and he is already looking like a very versatile player offensively. This means that he can be a deadly mismatch for other teams to handle, and one of the reasons why Garnett was guarding him instead of Perkins (who would not be able to guard Bargnani on the perimeter and/or recover when he gets beaten out there).
Also, he is a better shot-blocker than Bosh.
If he improves his team-defence slightly, than he will already be at Bosh’s level in that category.
Having said all that, let’s play “What if” for a second. Suppose Bosh leaves and Bargnani becomes our focus on offense. Bargnani then averages 25 PPG and (let’s say) 8 RPG. Who is the better player?
Bargnani’s averages in 2009 were: (FG 0.47) (3P 0.43) (FT 0.82). Those last two stats are insane for a center. If he can be aggressive and more versatile this year, he will be an offensive powerhouse.
Also, if he can improve his rebounding to about 7 RPG, look for him to be a reserve All-Star.
Bargnani scares teams when he catches fire, because he’s borderline unguardable, if you don’t react to the shot attempt, its a 3 in your face, and if you go up, he’s either going by you for a dunk, or he’s leaning into you for a trip to the free throw line.
If the defender is small and quick, he has shown a desire to take him inside(at least to the top of the key, and shoot over him) and if he’s big, its out to the 3 point line.
This is why Garnett was on him. He had games of incredible efficiency last year, I recall one against Chicago where he had 11 shot attempts and 25 points.
I understand the detractors, too, but I love watching Bargnani on offense. He’s exciting, I have no idea what he is going to do, and 2 or 3 times a game, I jump out of my seat and say, “WHAT?!”
I couldn’t agree more. If he develops a couple of moderately reliable post moves and continues to make good decisions offensively he does become borderline unguardable. If he developed defensively to the point where he was a decent PF/C defender and average rebounder he could be a star. I think the chances of the former happening are decent. I’m not so sure about the defensive improvements. I know he’s a bit of a killjoy, but the Khandor piece linked here is a decent analysis of where Bargs stands now.
And to whoever suggested Pryzbilla as a guy to team with Bargs, yeah, that seems about right. But if BC turns Bosh into Pryzbilla do the Raptors become the whitest team in the NBA?
So basically, if Bargnani becomes a much better player, he’ll be a star. Couldn’t the same be said of Bosh, though? If he gets a couple of more post moves and gets better defensively, he’ll be a top tier player.
I can’t help but notice that people touting Bargnani as a future star give him almost no limits on how he’ll improve, but assume Bosh has hit his ceiling.
Bargnani doesn’t have any real reliable post moves and is a below average rebounder. And there’s no indication that will ever change.
Hey, if I was 6 inches taller, more athletic, with better skills, I could be in the NBA!
True but Bargs has expanded his game and is going into season 4. Bosh seems to be what he is and doesn’t seem to have added much, if anything, to his game for the past 2 seasons, maybe more. We’ll all know this year if Bargs is what he is (decent scorer, crap everywhere else) or if he makes a leap by lessening his weaknesses. He’s improved a bit defensively, so that’s why people like me entertain the possibility he’ll get better. When it comes to rebounding, however . . .
here here!
Okay, I will admit that if Bargnani ever averages 25 and 8, he will be better than Bosh is right now. And if Calderon averages 20 and 15, he’ll be a top 3 PG. Unfortunately, Calderon will never 20 and 15 and Bargnani will never average 25 and 8, so let’s not even go there. Bosh has a better chance of averaging 26 and 10 this season than Bargnani does at ever averaging 25-8. He averaged a career high 6 rpg/36 mpg last season and is actually doing a worse job in the preseason. It’s incredibly difficult to become a better rebounder by the time you’ve hit the NBA. Guys either can or can’t. You might as well ask Shaq to become a three point shooter.
As to Bargnani being a good SCORER, as opposed to shooter, that’s not really true. He’s a fantastic shooter, but he’s simply not very good in the post. I’d love to know what his field goal percentage is off of post moves, but I’m guessing it wouldn’t be very high. Now, with practice, Bargnani could very well become a good post player, but he’ll never be a great one, because it simply doesn’t come naturally to him. And outside, he gets most of his shots off of assists. He needs someone to set him up most of the time. And when he does get the ball, he doesn’t get to the line at a high rate.
I started an explanation of this, but then realized I’ve done it so many times, I should write it on my blog, and include the link…
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfence/2009/10/what-makes-a-great-scorer/
It’s a bit of a read.
Oh, and as for Bargnani’s field goal, 3 point and free throw percentage, first of all, it was 45% FG and 41 3pt%, not the numbers you said. And that’s not bad for a center. Sam Perkins, Terry Mills and Brad Lohaus had similar numbers over the course of their career, and not one of them ever made the All-Star team, by the way. Then there was Bill Laimbeer, who did make the All-Star team, and averaging fairly similar numbers, but was also a great defender and had a career rebounding averaging of 9.7. Oh, and Mehmet Okur has even better numbers from the field and 3 point line than Bargnani, but still manages to grab a few more rebounds a game.
“This is why Garnett was on him. He had games of incredible efficiency last year, I recall one against Chicago where he had 11 shot attempts and 25 points.”
Actually, I would guess Garnett was on Bargnani because Bosh is quicker and RIvers didn’t want Garnett and his healing knee try and guard Bosh. Not to say that Bargnani isn’t a tough guard, but Garnett is certainly not fully healed yet, or did no one notice the limp he still has?
here here 2.0