Let the debate end. Vince Carter has been the most talented and bestest basketball player to ever don a Raptors jersey. You said so. He decimated his competition in our little experiment, taking down TJ Ford, Tracy Murray, Jose Calderon, Alvin Williams and Chris Bosh in resounding fashion. None of the head to heads were even close.
What this means is open to debate. Do Vince Carter lovers actually outnumber the haters just because they are less passionate? Is it a backlash against all the silly booing? Who knows.
I do know that this is one subject that Arsenalist and I agree on, which is grounds for you to take shelter from the oncoming tsunami since our agreement on anything is a rare thing. To this day if you go to any part of the US and ask people to talk Raptors ball, Vince Carter usually comes up in the conversation. He did more for this franchise than any player before or after. At a time when this franchise was listing, he put us on the map and rarely made an appearance on US television without wearing something Raptors related or bringing the team up numerous times in conversation. Have you seen Bosh do that? He was the first high profile player to re-sign with us and set up house and home in Toronto. He adopted this city and the city adopted him. We yearn so much for the American stamp of approval, for someone to say they love it here, for ESPN to show our highlights, TNT to show our game on a Thursday night, to have a national broadcast on Christmas or any given Sunday. Vince singlehandedly provided all that and wore the purple proudly.
People always point to his final days here and continue to believe he bailed on this team, taking interviews out of context and riding the injury train more than he should have. Again, my opinion? I think the team sat him for extended periods to protect their investment. Did he check out mentally? I believe so, but I also think there is a reason for it: here was a young guy that poured his heart and soul into a team and city only to see it snap back against him. Keeping a promise and going to your graduation, something the club agreed to, should be commended in this age of trying to convince kids to stay in school and read to achieve. Instead, it was the start of his downfall…something made even more silly when you consider the backlash happened after a game 7 appearance in the second round of the playoffs that, had he hit that final shot, would have been a forgotten, possibly even lauded move. Instead, the crosshairs landed on his head and he was run out of town. The mental anguish that he must have lived through hearing his mother attacked, being called a quitter, seeing false trade talk become front page news in media for 3 years……all made it completely understandable that he wanted out. He didn’t quit on us, we turned our backs on him. We have never been the same team ever since. Instead of making appearances on US National television, we have video game companies inserting a booing track in their games. Quite the thing to be known for as fans. Embarrassing.
Vince Carter is the best Raptor ever. No debate. No doubt. Nobody else is even close.
51 Raps
I voted for Carter as best Raptor ever but I disagree with much of what you said. Was he the best player who ever played for the Raptors? Yes, by a mile. Did he do the most for the franchise? Absolutely. Did he quit? Absolutely. Did he betray his teammates, the franchise and the city. How can anyone say he didn’t?
If you had asked me for my favourite Raptor, I would not have named him.
Worst of all, I think that you and Arsenalist are not alone in shouldering some of the blame (on behalf of the cityamd the franchise) for Carter bolting. So why are you (all of you, collectively) the first to heap shit all over Bosh, the face of the current franchise and our best player. Is it so that you can remember him fondly when he’s gone?
This is what bugs me about Toronto sports – the role players (Tie Domi, Reggie Evans, John McDonald) get unconditional love and the stars (Vince Carter, Mats Sundin, Chris Bosh, etc.) are criticized for being less than perfect while they’re here, pushed away by fans and media and praised when they’re gone.
Vince should not be celebrated – he fucked the team and the city. But please don`t write about how great he was and how he was screwed in one post while sticking it to Bosh for not being Lebron in the next.
Interesting comment. Not sure how much blame I shoulder for Vince leaving since I’ve been nothing but a Vince supporter, something that is pretty evident by the article above and my never-ending disbelief of how people boo the guy. In addition, if you dig back through articles I’ve written on the other site and the years of posts I made on Usenet newsgroups in support of Vince, I can’t imagine why I’d be grouped into the “get out of town” mob.
Same applies to Bosh. Arsenalist and I have very differing opinions on Bosh. Rarely do you see me dragging Bosh through the mud for his oncourt play..hell, some would say I don’t do it enough. His offcourt stuff? Absolutely. I think he is mismanaged (both online and off, for the record). As a Raptors player, he has my support 110%. I think he is our best player (still) and will be greatly disappointed if he isn’t on our roster moving forward.
The only part I do agree with is how Toronto sports fans love the working-class middle-of-the-pack players and not their stars. Again, look through my online thoughts of Pops, Keon, JYD, etc. This year I still think the lauding of praise on Marco is misguided. We’ll see.
Appreciate the comment, but the majority of it with respect to my views on players past and present is completely off the mark.
Don’t take it personally. I don’t blame you for Carter bolting (Arsenalist is another matter). BUT this statement – “He didn’t quit on us, we turned our backs on him.” – is horseshit. Carter fucking quit on us.
Toronto fans SHOULD learn their lesson and celebrate Bosh b/c he’s very good player and seems like a solid guy.
-Carter fucking quit on us-
this is one thing that can not be denied. Besides OUTRIGHT asking for a trade, he stopped trying well before this. We all saw, we all were disappointed, we all were worried. But NOBODY drove him out of town. We all wanted him here, we just wanted the Vince Carter we saw during (and prior) to the playoff years.
The entire city, province and country supported him. He straight up turned his back on us and walked out. Didnt even have the decency to try an keep it quiet (he told the media he wasnt going to dunk anymore and a layup is just as good).
Im disheartened by all those who feel he was our best player. Our most talented yes, but far from our best.
Totally agree that he stopped trying. Also agree with the notion that if the question was worded: who is “your favourite” Raptor, the outcome would be different.
I feel Vince was the best Raptor thus far. However, he is not my favourite.
That said… we also have to understand the human component to an athlete. Depression, paralyzes a lot of people. I’ve always wondered about Vince’s family, after hearing reports about T-Mac wanting to retire and seeing him moping around and disinterested in games.
I think it is really easy for us to say that we would always give our 100%, but I am sure we all can find an example where our individual happiness kept us from being all that we could be.
So I don’t have that much hate for Vince, just disappointment.
Carter is the most talented Raptor. Hands-down. Best Raptor. Sure.
Biggest Quitter. Yup.
I am not sure where you were for the season before his departure but the fans didn’t turn on Carter until he mentally checked out.
I was (and am) a season ticket holder and saw almost every home game in that stretch. He barely phoned in his performance. You seem to forget Carter’s “Why should I dunk anymore?” phase.
He may have given more effort in recent years when in NJ, but his last season as a Raptor, he punked out. As far as I am concerned, he owes me money for those games I paid to see. I won’t forget anyone who steals from me.
And, yes, I think he is going to have a monster season this year in Orlando. He is still a punk. He may win a ring but so did Antoine Walker.
Arsenalist and Altraps are partly to blame for Carter bolting? Wow.
This is a good thing – if they can channel their energy at Banks now and POOF, he’s gone.
I largely agree with Altraps. I do hate athletes that give up too easily – but I do also think Toronto’s management was not an innocent bystander in this “tragedy” either.
Oh, and get over booing Vince. We’ve made our point. It’s childish now to continue. Move on, life’s short. We should focus our energy on #OUR# players.
I’m indifferent to booing Vince. I don’t think it works but we’re such a quiet city, I don’t mind the show of emotion during games. Consistent, knowledgeable and vocal support for out team would be best but hate for the other team’s players is still something.
Great post, I agree completely. Rap of the Day. I always get pissed off when sports fans that I know keep focusing on every little perceived flaw in a star while praising and being excited about role players like JYD, Pops and Reggie Evans. I find it very, very strange that people like this are always getting more love than our stars. Chris Bosh is not a franchise player, Chris Bosh should be doing more, Chris Bosh is not worth a max contract. I don’t hear about him being one of the very few to average 20-10, being one of the best power forwards in the game. He’s always said to be not quite good enough. Meanwhile, Pops was praised if he had a bunch of rebounds and a few dunks, Reggie is praised when he has a few steals, some rebounds and some hustle plays. While I have no problem with these hard-working players being praised, I do have a problem with Chris Bosh, who works just as hard as these guys, being criticized almost every time he’s brought up. I don’t understand how some “Raptors Fans” can hate him. This is why stars sometimes don’t want to stay in their city, this is why they end up wanting to leave.
Whos John McDonald?
And VC is the best thing to ever happen to the Raptors!
Bosh is screwing with the Raptors by not signing an extension and keeping the team in limbo. How’s that for fucking with the city & the teammates!?
VC realized that Sam Mitchell was a total moron and that Babcock was a garbage GM before any one of you dummies did and didn’t want to waste his career with that shitty organization.
Could he have handled the situation better? Absolutely! And he probably regrets how he went about it to this day. He loved Toronto as a city and represented it to the full. In his interviews he never dissed the city of Toronto, just the Raptors organization.
VC brought identity & swagger to this team. Something that “Superstar Bosh” hasn’t and likely will never bring. Remember the VC All-Star Calssic? When real players actually took their time to come to T. and play for his charity.
Remember THIS? http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1270872
When The Raptors were actually relevant and famous rappers wore the purple and black “Toronto” jersey.
There are other Raptors who deserve the hate that’s been dished out to him. So stop hatin!
John McDonald = good field, no-hit Blue Jays shortstop who was beloved for his hard work and was not begrudged for his lack of ability.
Amazing article… For me personally i loved Vince Carter he was dominating when i was pretty young so to me he was almost like Superman. He was dunking over guys, putting on once in a lifetime shows at the dunk contest…. BRINGING US TO THE SECOND ROUND. He was amazing he had incredable talent but to bad we had an idiot GM who did nothing for him and we had a new coach every year. I love VC and i always will the hardest part in watching him play is thinking to myself “we SHOULD still have him”…
I always find it amusing that how one incident could completely change the outcome of things. Vince carter’s final shot on game 7 of conference semifinals to win us the series, and send the Raptors to the conference finals for the first time in their franchise history. Had he made that shot, god knows how different our franchise would be. Vince’s number could have been retired, and Vince could have been the “Legendary Raptor” to be remembered forever. God, this all sounds like a phony epic movie, but this one is real!
Honestly, he was a god in Toronto. Who knows where he could’ve taken what would’ve almost certainly been a dynasty with Bosh had that shot fallen.
I agree with you, AltRaps about the fact that Vince Carter is the best Raptor ever. He is among of the leading scorer in team’s history. I really respect your opinion but unfortunately, he betrayed us! Wake up, AltRaps!
Vince Carter is the biggest pussy in the NBA same as Terrell Owens in the NFL. He gave us fake injuries (he could’ve won an Emmy Awards for that), he went up to the front office and demanded a trade, blaming the GM’s and coaches, and he even tipped off a play against Seattle! It was a vivid description that he wanted to leave TORONTO and we end up in a most lopsided trade in NBA history.
He dogged it on purpose… whined and moaned like a baby and just generally quit on the team…. he is the perfect example of what is wrong with sports today… I did not vote for him once in this tournament from the first round up… because of these things… apparently the dunk junkies did in full force… Vince Carter = overhyped ESPN highlight reel… he is neither a team player or a winner and he never will be either….
VC is, was, and will always be all style, no substance. This is by far my least favourite type of player.
Almost all the comments and grips about Carter have at least some truth.
Best player the Raptors have had to-date. Most hated player the Raptors have had to-date.
Best draw the ACC has ever had every time he comes here!
vince carter has given me more breathtaking moments of basketball bliss then any other baller…has bosh even given us one?
Who has come closer to achieving their potential – Bosh or Carter? Why?
That’s a big question. Perceived potential or actual potential? Given all the circumstances, I think both Bosh and Carter have lived up to their potential.
I didn’t like doing it, but I voted for Carter. You just can’t deny that he’s done the most as a Raptor. That takes into account accomplishments, leadership (he WAS a true court leader), hype/press/media attention – Without Carter, we might have been moved and became the Alberquerque Assholes or something.
Friends, Morontonians, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Carter, not to praise him;
The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones,
So let it be with Carter …
Jeez … when tribal honking fans try to re-live the past all you get is rancour and recriminations.
I have this this premonition, this vision … that Bosh is no longer a Raptor … he’s gone back to his country – Texas … and is playing for a team that values his talents and is willing to pay for them. He had a good run in Toronto, and now it’s time to move on and out.
Unfortunately, the Raptor’s legacy will be one of losing out on USian all-star players and all the tribal honking fans will have nobody to slobber over …. what ever happened to “team” basketball …???
…the originality just continues.
I like the first 5 lines though, it was written very nicely!
I thot the last line was the best … oh well, can’t satisfy everybody ….
Hey, RAPMAN … you know who originally wrote those words .. it was Shake’n SpearMan .. and for somebody else … I just replaced it with ‘Carter’ …LOL
I’ve been waiting to see the results of the showdown for a few days and thought I’d missed it.
I also never thought I’d read a reasoned article about Vince Carter written by someone from this city ever again.
I agree wholeheartedly and I’m glad to see some sanity in the midst of all the boos.
Vince Who? (If he isn’t a Raptor, he isn’t loved by me!) Go, Chris!!
I didn’t like it, but I voted for Vince every time as well – and I hate him really. But, I don’t let my hate ever twist around the fact that he was above and beyond the best Raptor we have ever had, and he exposed us to the US and the world like nobody could. I will always appreciate him for that, but there is no way in hell we as the fans quit on him. He quit on us, when he quit in games, when people paid a lot of their hard-earned money to come watch their star player perform and he just stopped giving a shit.
I don’t think the interviews were taken too much out of context at all, he openly admitted to saying he didn’t always try as hard as he could, something we all already knew in Toronto. Now, yes, management wasn’t free of some of the blame – Babcock was mostly an atrocious GM, but management shouldn’t have anything to do with how you play on the court as a player. I must say though, it is stupid to frown upon him for attending his grad ceremony on that game 7 day – he came back well within game time, and it didn’t make a difference if he hit that last shot or not. Things like that I do agree, is just silly to be mad at. But it doesn’t take away that he quit on us on the court.
Toronto and Vince Carter started out as a dream relationship, he took us to heights we never deemed possible especially so soon, had wild, mind-boggling sex, and then he started cheating, stopped caring and doing all the little things (”honey, you don’t put in the same effort you used to into our relationship, I feel like you’re head is somewhere else..”). So now we still remember the good times, and almost try to blame ourselves that its our fault that the love of our life left.
Disagree.
Booing and mocking your own player, while still wearing your teams uniform, is turning your back on them.
I have yet, for example, see people grasping their knee or foot when speaking of Bosh. Why not? It’s speculated that he doesn’t want to be here, that he can’t play through pain, etc etc. I don’t see much of a difference. If you sat down with him and asked if he played at 100% effort every night, every minute on the floor, he would be lying if he said yes. Do you work hard at your job everyday? How about your website? Do you give it 100% every day? Be honest.
Honesty hurts because you are hearing it from someone you idolized. That’s okay. Doesn’t allow you to take it out of context. I’ll believe John Thompson, who stated that he felt Vince’s answer was blown well out of proportion, before listening to anybody else.
Another one from the archives: http://dimemag.com/2008/05/the-vince-carter-apologist/
Altraps, at what point did Raps fans boo Vince prior to his noticeable decrease in effort. I can tell you who, none. They booed him when he stopped trying. There was no point in time where it was undeserved. Whether that reinforced his decision to go Im not sure… but it was not the fans that started the disconnect with Vince.
How many pro athletes have you EVER heard say… I wasnt trying for X amount of time. When one does say that…. they are either telling the truth or completely retarded. I dont think Vince is retarded. Or lets put it this way, when your boss comes and asks you have you been trying your hardest for the past X years do you ever say no. You may say Ill try harder, but nobody says I wasnt trying my best (especially for an extended period of time). Him saying it was taken out of context was just to cover his ass for his next pay raise.
C’mon Altraps, Vince Carter started mindf*cking us. Do you remember that, “I don’t think I’ll dunk anymore…” bullshit. Look man, I was the fan that went there to see him. I watched the sportcenter highlights because that’s where they were playing him.
Toronto is a working class town. Because of that we can smell the odor of somebody signing off. Somebody who is prioritizing themselves above the team and the city. Somebody who is believing in and reveling in their own press. The Vince Carter we loved was very different than the Vince Carter we ended up hating. He changed, we didn’t.
He went from being the Heir Apparent to SI’s most overrated athlete in the world. Not basketball player, athlete, in any sport. That’s a pretty damning review, from a pretty highly respected sports mag, eh?
And because of that we boo’d him. And you know what? We will do it to any athlete that doesn’t leave everything out there on that f*cking floor or ice. Why? Because they live the dream life. They play a game for a living and get paid absurdly well for it. They owe us their heart and soul for that two and a half hours, eighty two games a year.
And we pay through the teeth and nose to be able to watch it.
Jordan once said that he left it on the floor every single game because he knew there was at least one person watching who had never seen him play before. And he was playing for that guy.
That’s why he was the greatest…and Vince? Please…
Of course I don’t give it my all every day at work, online, etc. But I’m not being paid millions of dollars to play a sport in a town that at the least expects me to put in effort for 48 minutes per game. I’m not saying no other player in the NBA doesn’t take possessions off, but the way Vince Carter went about it and just shoved it in our faces is seriously wrong. I’m also not denying I idolized him at one point – hell yeah I did – he was the biggest player in the NBA and played the living daylights out of the game – until he stopped trying, started whining. And again, I’m not saying management didn’t screw up at all, but it shouldn’t change the way you play the game on the court, ever. If you’re seen a fair amount of Raptors games in his last few years, you don’t need that interview to tell you that he stopped giving a shit.
Vince is easily the best Raptors due to his sheer natural talent. For all that’s being made over Derozan’s athleticism, the 30 year old Vince is probably still more athletic than the 19 year old Derozan. After LeBron, you could make the case that Vince is the most athletically gifted wing player of his generation. And yet, he’ll go down as being a pretty good player who never (until perhaps this year) made it out of the second round. That he was the best raptors in undeniable, but I imagine he’d be far far down the list of the most respected Raptor.
Two things on the Vince mix. I’m not sure NBA highlights should be allowed to be set to Avril Lavigne. And I think I miss Chuck Swirsky. Do we really want to be watching Demar highlights in 10 years and hearing “Bang on” and “Kid Dynamite” in the background? I don’t think so.
He is the best Raptor ever….but the scar should not be healed yet.
The reason I feel there is now so much unnecessary love for Vince Carter was when he quit on the Raptors, a lot of fans at the time that post on forums etc. now were kids. I was in university when he got traded and have been watching basketball for a while, so I could fully comprehend his doucheness.
On the other hand, in the eyes of a 12 year old at the time he was traded it might not have been that big a deal because they maybe do not understand the situation as well as someone in their 20s. Now that they are 17 they might be asking people like me what the big deal is.
I think it’s safe to say that some of the quality and stupidity of the posts lately (not just on this site), there have been a ton of these little kids lurking around.
See … what did I tell ya?! … tribal honking fans fall in love with their heroes … past .. present .. and future …… all because they are inadequate without a role model .. a slamdunkin’ floorstompin’ razzamatazz genuinely sickn’super all-galaxy fan favourite Raptor mofo millionaire hero-hoopster …!!!!
I hate you so much.
I enjoyed the read. And the youtube clip had the most fitting song too. “He was everything, everything that I wanted”… and he still is. Sad, but true.
How will people feel if they retire his jersey?
Aw man, AltRaps … maybe he was keeping a promise to somebody (his Mom?) about attending his graduation … I don’t know, I don’t remember hearing that, but I’ll take your word for it … BUT, he had a bigger promise to keep to his team. It was game seven, man! And he CHOSE to fly to his graduation and then back to Philadelphia on the very day of that game seven. Anyone who flies, even now and again, understands why all pro sports teams NEVER fly on the day of the game. Equilibrium thing or something, but … one is NOT at their physical best on the same day after flying.
Had he made that last second shot that would’ve won the game and the series, would he have been instantly forgiven? By most, maybe … but not necessarily by all. I couldn’t have been the only one who was so absolutely incredulous (and furious) BEFORE that game, seeing that he put his own self so egocentrically and callously before his team, on such an important day – f o r h i s t e a m. And for what, really? For a cap-and-gown photo-op? Please. As things unraveled to its ugly end, it turned out that he had actually showed us on that very day, all we really needed to know about him. I’m sorry, but I never really ‘trusted’ him, again. And consciously or not, I’d bet that many felt that same … discomfort, about him.
“Do Vince Carter lovers actually outnumber the haters just because they are less passionate?”, you asked. In a way, the phrasing of that question might just nail it, dead on. Scratch the surface of a VC ‘hater’ and you’re likely to find a fan who loved him the MOST. There isn’t anyone who has to tell me he was the best. I know he was the best. But like it or not, there is a price for greatness and as inconvenient as it may be, quite often, with great talent comes greater responsibility. To have just shirked the responsibility would’ve been one thing … and if that’s all it was, we could’ve all eventually shrugged our shoulders and told each other it was a shame … and then carried on with things, letting it all slide away into fuzzy memories – but to blatantly quit on his team (and his fans), throwing them under the bus the way he did in the end, with such a sour-bitch attitude during those last months he was here, was not much less than pissing in all our faces.
In the end, what hurt about it all (speaking for myself) wasn’t even so much that he demeaned his team and his fans, leaving the way he did. What caused the most regret and awkward discomfort – ok, pain – for me, was to see was how he so terribly demeaned HIMSELF.
I never voted once for anyone in those polls. A blind man could see where the whole thing was going and I knew I couldn’t honestly vote against Vince Carter … but I also knew I sure as hell could never vote for him, either.
I think it was good to get this out of my system. But I had to get drunk to write it. Cheers.
Hey, wsg .. those that voted for Carter are tribal honkin’ jerk-offs who always fantasized being Vince .. and they still have his #15 jersey hanging up in their closet … and sometimes they cry themselves to sleep all because they can’t wear it in public … and all because Vince broke their hearts .. when they loved him soooooooooo …!!!!!
(I f***ing love this site)
Here’s the deal, Raptors management chased Carter away. For many years, the second best player was an aging Antonio Davis. Vince was the first big time player to re-sign with the Raptors as a free agent, everybody else bailed at the first chance they got. Let’s consider that. I never questioned his loyalty to the City, one could tell he genuinely loved Toronto, but the team management drove the guy crazy. Between drafting Araujo and other busts, handing out a max contract to a geriatric Hakeem, Vince had grown completely frustrated. This was the guy that spent his offseason chasing after guys to convince them to come to the raptors. He pushed so hard for the team to hire Julius Ervin as GM, but the team blew him off and hired some hockey dude. At that point, Vince started to believe what everyone had been telling him all along; that he could never win in a hockey city, and should have bailed at the first chance he had.
Hey Charles, the reason they handed that contract out to Hakeem was because Vince asked them to. He was the one who lobbied for ‘The Geriatric Dream’ to be brought here. That’s on his shoulders. They did everything they could to appease him.
The reason they didn’t want Dr.J was because we had had Isaih and that was a pretty bad deal…
And I get and agree that he should have been frustrated with some of the incompetence…but if it changes the way you play the game…then your weak.
Strong minded people realize that they ultimately can’t change the world, but that there is no way the world is going to change them either.
We had a hero who ended up being a phony…and we hate him for it.
Perfect! I knew it all along. That’s exactly who I voted for!! Seems like there’s so many haters still. But there’s obviously still more of us than you guys…cry all you want…b**** all you want. The truth is…Vince is the best Raptor ever to don the raptor jersey in the 15 years of its existence.
i love you vince carter
i like you
you’re so handsome
i love you
bhwwwwwwwwo
i love you
We miss you Vince.
Got that right.