Safe to say we were pathetic at this last year. I remember doing game recaps and checking out box scores to find that Jamario Moon and Anthony Parker were being outscored by 60-90% on any given night, they ended up finishing 26th and 22nd in starter scoring for their respective positions. They were being torched and weren’t torching their counterparts nearly enough. Shawn Marion came and went without leaving a defensive mark that would make me feel sad about not re-signing him. I mean, when you let Caron Butler undress you like that at home, it says something. So how will we fare this year at the wing spots?
Manning the 2-3 spots for the Raptors last year were Jamario Moon, Anthony Parker and Joey Graham. This year we have DeMar DeRozan, Antoine Wright and Hedo Turkoglu. Forget defense, the first thing that jumps at you is that we have superior offensive firepower at the wings. We all know about Turkoglu (10th in scoring for his position) and have seen DeRozan’s potential; Wright’s a write-off but he still can’t be too much worse than Joey Graham on the offensive side of the ball. The 6′ 10″ Turkoglu adds size that can be utilized on both ends by a coach who recognizes the opportunity. I remember Phil Jackson using Toni Kukoc as a great defensive asset even though he was hardly a good defensive player. Kukoc (along with Pippen) was the Bulls’ trap-guy because of his length and got a lot of deflections just because he happened to be at the right spot on the court when those skip and point-to-wing passes were being made. He was a player whose good size was being used correctly by a good coaching staff.
I feel Turkoglu is a player that’s not given enough credit for his defense. He’s not an ultra-quick lock-down type defender, but he’s long and big, and more importantly, uses his head on defense which last year’s small forward (Moon) never did. In his life. Ever. I think Triano will appreciate the luxury of having a 6′ 10″ hedge-man who can make the return pass that much more difficult. If you put him on the floor with DeRozan and Jack you’ll get a 1/2/3 combination that’s athletic, strong and big. That to me is a huge improvement over last year where two of those three spots were leaking for 48 minutes a game.
I don’t know how DeMar DeRozan will fare defensively at the SG. It’s one of the toughest positions to defend simply because the skill level and athleticism of the players at the off-guard is tremendous. It is good to know that we have Wright waiting in the wings to help out the rookie. The natural comparison to last year would be with Parker who I feel (and as he acknowledged in the off-season) is only a good team-defender, what that means is that he can listen to the coach. Parker can tighten up on a player up but if that player is any good, he can drive by him on any given day. He doesn’t have the athleticism to be in two places at once and his recovery defense is non-existent. DeRozan is an upgrade athletically, the question is whether he’ll be disciplined enough to listen to the coaches, read the scouting reports and play to the weakness of the defender.
The 6′7″ DeRozan has the physical tools to defend but it all depends on how quickly his NBA initiation happens. He’ll be going up against Pierce, LeBron and Vince in the first month of the season so you’d think he’ll have learned the major defensive lessons early. Defense is about effort and commitment and since rookies usually find the offensive part tough, there’s no better channel to make up for your shortcomings on offense than defense. Just like Mo Pete did it. I think the major measuring stick for DeRozan will be how attentive he is to the coaching staff and whether he’s able to correct his early mistakes (which are bound to happen) quickly and thus earn the right to be on the court. If you can’t defend you’re a liability and Triano’s not going to fool around, especially if the effort and dedication isn’t there.
Turkoglu’s a defensive and offensive improvement over Moon. I’d consider Parker to be a better defender than DeRozan but that could change if DeRozan wants it to. The Parker of two years ago was an efficient scorer but last year’s version labored more than a cow giving birth to triplets. DeRozan is an unproven commodity but it’ll be awfully hard to be as inconsistent as Parker was last year. It’s a wash to start the season with DeRozan having the potential to be a much more productive scorer. This leaves us with Antoine Wright vs Joey Graham.
I haven’t seen Wright enough to comment on his offensive game but judging by his playoff performance and what’s coming out of coaches’ mouths, I’d say he’s a superior defender than Graham. Joey’s lateral movement reminded me of a closet; even though he went some ways in winning my approval through his hard-nosed offensive play to finish the season, he was still significantly below average in both departments. The worst you can say about Wright is that he sucks on offense but is an above average defender. So yeah, Wright gets the edge.
Don’t think I’ve forgotten about Belinelli, I just think he’s too much of a wildcard to be counted upon. I do love the “Don Nelson hated him and how that he’s on the loose he’ll show us how great he is” argument but that just isn’t true, the guy did get 21mpg last year so it’s not as if Nelson had him in solitary confinement and fed him through a keyhole for the whole year. Belinelli could be as good as Tracy Murray or Walt Williams or as bad as Tracy Murray or Walt Williams. I just cannot bring myself to expect anything particular of him.
I have my reservations with Jarrett Jack defending the off-guard, mostly because I don’t think he’ll be called upon to do that and also because he’s 6′3″. I think there will be enough work at the point to keep him occupied, but let’s play along for a minute. He’s a bullish player who can be posted-up but has the strength to push out the poster further out. However, a height disadvantage is a height disadvantage and at this level an off-guard with a reasonable jumper will be able to score on him whenever he feels like it. If you’ve seen him in Indiana you might’ve noticed his ability to draw contact on offense with a quick move followed by a hard-stop which bumps the defender slightly backwards, leaving him enough room for the mid-range jumper. I’m not sure about his blow-by ability but if his jumper is falling (and defenses will test that first) he’ll have the opportunity to create with dribble penetration against SGs. Sounds cozy enough but again, I just don’t think the off-guard is where he’s most valuable to us.
Overall, the wing defense has improved. I think we’ll be better at defending dribble penetration and have improved our athleticism and size to the point where we’re at least average. Turkoglu will improve production and DeRozan/Wright will at the very least wash out Parker/Graham. Will we have negative +/- at the 2/3? Can DeRozan learn to defend the off-guard? Is Turkoglu’s ability to play defense overblown? Is Wright as good as people say he is? Can Belinelli provide the scoring punch? Can Jack actually play significant minutes at the 2? These are just a few of the many questions that remain to be answered about our wings. Your thoughts are always appreciated.
42 Raps
nice post :)
I don’t think Jack will play the 2 very much. Like you said he’s just too short to get that many minutes there, and we already have other guys at the 2 anyway.
DeRozen, like every other rookie thats ever played in the NBA, will get tested alot and will get torched here and there. This is to be expected, its part of life for a rookie SG. But if he can make strides game by game and finish the season strong on D I’ll be very happy.
Hedo is a guy who might not be a great 1-on-1 defender, but in the right system can be utlilized effectively and contest jump shots with his length.
How many more weeks until the season starts? I cant wait any longer….
Oh and Arsenalist, we got thumped yesterday by Man City…what was that?
i think it creates too much of a log jam if jack plays the 2 consistantly. It would leave douby to more min which is probably not what we want to see. Id rather have jack coming in to hound the ball up the court when calderon cant get it done. derozan and wright are both taller and therefore will at least be able to get a hand up even if there defensive commitment is lackluster. Bellinelli cant play defense but the only thing we want him to do is too jack anything and everything. I dont even want to see patience from this guy….we need him to be a offensive sparkplug plain and simple…in limited min
I think DeRozan is going to be a big surprise this season. He seems to get it and want it and that’s half of what you need. The talent and athleticism are already there, I believe he’ll put it all together before long…
Nice article, I agree with you on about every point. Better players at the wing, and more depth this year. Very nice upgrade, at least on paper.
I’d just like to point out that I have a little more faith in what Beli can bring to our team.
“the guy did get 21mpg last year so it’s not as if Nelson had him in solitary confinement and fed him through a keyhole for the whole year.”
The stat is true, of course, but just too raw. I’ve followed the GSW last year, and Nelson passed from not using Marco at all, to give him very few minutes, to putting him in the starting spot (due to injuries), switching him to the PG spot, to go back to not using him at all again. The graph of his usage might look like the Rocky Mountains or the Alps profile…I don’t know about you: but to me Nellie has been a great coach that just lost his way a few years ago, or is just out of date. In any case, I don’t feel like giving GSW’s management and coaching staff a positive grade over the last years…
BUT, when Marco was starting I believe he did a good job, even at the Point. He’s a great streak offensive player who sometimes tends to make a horrible shot selection, he’s got a strong attitude and never backs up, he can hit big shots and his passing skills are better than one could think. Even his defense didn’t look too bad over the stretch. He’s going to start from scratch again, but with the proper coaching set-up, he could give us a lot from the bench.
Nellie like to play his veterans , he does not like using first or second year players unless it is an emergency. Last year , the first game against the Raptors , I believe he used only 7 players.
Well Said.
Belinelli has a chance to be the player Colangelo believes him to be, but you’re right that he’s had limited experience in the NBA (only played in 40 games last year, and only 20 with consistent minutes) and has yet to prove it.
There are lots of 2 guards that Jack might match up well against. Ben Gordon comes to mind. But the competition for minutes at the 2 should be fierce – and that’s a good thing.
Jack has proven that he can hold his own against shooting guards in almost every way. The only weakness is that he is 3″ shorter than most which means that he tends to get shot over. I’d rather have a guy hoisting bombs over Jack than penetrating and drawing fouls on our bigs…
In addition to what you’ve said (which I agree with), keep in mind that Jack would be playing against backups.
Backup SG’s are typically guys who lack something required to make it as a starter: typically A) size; B) lack of range; or C) lack of athleticism. In cases A and B, Jack will do more than fine. In case C, he can get up in the guy’s face (because he is too quick and determined for a less athletic SG to drive by him) which makes it almost impossible to get a shot off (you kind of need space to bring the ball up into a shooting position).
I’m not sure why you’re penciling in DeRozan to start. Wright has to start. I think with the amount of shooters and guys who need the ball in the starting line-up, you need a wing who can dedicate himself to defense and not worry about getting shots. Wright is a good, quick defender and fits that role very well. DeRozan comes off the bench, eases into the pace of the league by playing the team’s back-up wings, gets his shots and develops.
Also: Walt Williams! That guy had socks for days!
Triano has stated that DD will start, and dont worry about wright not getting minutes…. we still have a hole defensively in guarding small/fast point guards (Paul, Parker etc) and Wright is the only one seemingly capable to slow them down…. (Jack and Jose have average quickness)
Last season Belinelli averaged 11 ppg in 27 mpg and shot 40% from the field when he started
Coming off of the bench he averaged 6 ppg in 13 mpg and shot 51% from the field
I think DeRozan shouldn’t start too. Wright can do the job in defense well, and give DeRozan the opportunity to learn step by step what NBA is. Calde-Wright-Hedo-Bosh-Barg is a solid and experienced starting 5 for at least the first month, a hard one …;)
I also don’t see Jack getting much burn at the 2 spot. Not because he wouldn’t be effective there (he can be depending on the matchups) but because we need him backing up Jose so that we never have to see a minute of Marcus Banks this coming season.
Jose is at his best with limited minutes, and this season he actually has that luxury with a solid, consistent player like Jack behind him.
I’m just confused what Arse learned from Caron Butler undressing Marion…that Caron Butler is one of the best all-around wings in the game? That Marion, while still effective, isn’t as good a defender as he once was? Frankly, I couldn’t get past that point to really read the rest of the article objectively.
I disagree with a number or you in regards to how many minutes Jack will see at the 2 spot. Let’s say that Triano tries to rein in Calderon’s minutes and plays him for 33 minutes a night. Do you then only play Jack for 15 minutes a night? I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that he is far and away our best guy coming off the bench. There is no way you play your 6th man for only 15 minutes a night. Just doesn’t make sense.
I think that matchups will likely dictate the type of burn that Jack gets on any one night at the two spot. When we’re playing New Jersey is there any reason Jack can’t defend Courtney Lee? What about whoever ends up playing the two spot for New York? Is Larry Hughes at 6′5 too hard of a check for Jack? I doubt it.
While you’re right that we wouldn’t want to see Jack out there against Paul Pierce of Iguodala, I think there will be many nights where he will be able to play more the capable defense against some of the smaller twos out there.
If Jack doesn’t average around 25 mins a game this year I’ll be suprised.
I don’t think Jose will play 33 minutes a night. He’s good for 28-30 and I feel/hope Triano knows that he’ll need Calderon fresh for the post-season and will manage his minutes as needed. Jack will play SG, no doubt about that, I just think Belinelli and DeRozan are far more natural options than Jack and it’ll show in the minutes.
I agree with you regarding Belinelli and DeRozan in general but, as I wrote, I think matchups will dictate alot of the choices. At this point in time, would you not agree that Jack is a better all around player than both Belinelli and DeRozan? If the matchup makes sense, why not have Jack on the floor with Calderon?
Also regarding minutes, Jose played 34 a game last year with a bum hammy. I understand that the lack of even a mediocre backup had a lot to do with that, but shouldn’t a healthy Jose, who was in consideration for the All-Star game just two years ago, be able to handle 33 minutes a night and still be ok for the postseason? He’s not an old man by any stretch.
I think the point is that 34 minutes a game was too much so he hurt himself.
Due to the tough sced , I think Wright should start over Demar DeRozan. If DeRozan starts he is going to be a liability on defense and that might destroy his confidence. Throwing him into the fire , against some of the top guards in the Eastern Conference is just not fair.
I think we all read the interview where Triano expressed getting DeRozan minutes. He said he was thinking(still a long ways off to tip off) of the possibility of having him start both the first and third quarters.
Myself, if Wright is the better defender, and really haven’t seen him play much, he might be better suited to start. There is no lack of offense with Calderon, Bosh, Turkoglu and Bargnani in our starting lineup. Defensively is where we need to step up to climb in the standings.
Also DeRozan is still very young. While I think we might end up with the best player from the draft, unless he excels right from training camp, do not see the need to put him up against the Pierces, Lebrons and Carters out there right from the get go. Although I do not think it will hurt him, it might just hurt the team as a whole.
I just want to close by adding that the Raptors have a lot of serviceable players who are going to be fighting for minutes. Training camp has yet to start and all teams lineups are not in stone yet. BC has the bodies to swing another deal………
First of all, as good as this article is, why is there no mention of Jason Kapono? Wait, I know — it’s because the memories of his defense are so painful they’ve been repressed. It still makes no sense not to mention him At ALL. He played a lot of minutes for us last year. Him not being on the team definitely improves defense.
I think Raptors fans are likely to be disappointed by Antoine Wright — stats suggest his defense was porous. Yeah, Dallas staff say he’s great : that’s called ’selling the trade’. I expect Bellinelli to get more burn, and Antoine to be on the floor mostly to spell turkoglu against 3 guards too small for our bigs and too big for Bellinelli. But even there, we might see Derozan at the 3 on his place, depending how Derozan is playing.
Like some other posters, I expect Jarrett Jack to get a lot of burn at the 2 spot. Put it this way: what is the single best lineup that the Raptors can field in crunch-time? It’s Calderon, Jack, Turkoglu, Bosh, and Bargs. I think we are going to see those 5 together on the floor a lot at the end of games.
That’s a really good point, why no Jason Kapono? I can’t explain that one. He crossed my mind, I just didn’t write it down. Can’t explain it. I’m at a loss.
Yes, I see Jack playing a lot at the 2 spot. Raps should use him at least 20 min per game I think, replacing Calderón and playing some minutes at 2, when we need more ball movement.
Yeah, but crunch time is what, the last five minutes?
Honestly, even if he does fit into an end of game role, I think that’s almost the only time he’ll spend at the 2. Maybe five more minutes earlier in the game, but that’s it. No way the coaches should play Jose over 32 minutes a game, which sets up Jack for 16 + 5 end of game + 5 elsewhere = 26 minutes. Plenty for an NBA backup. Especially whent he 2 spot is stacked the way it is.
Regarding Parker/Moon/Graham vs Wright/De Rozan/Turkoglu: it is interesting to note that Moon and Parker have both signed with the Cavs and are being touted in pre-season analyses as improving the Cavs’ defense. Of course, they will be on the second unit there.
Is the whole question one of replacing second-unit players forced to be on the first unit with true first-unit players?
My take is Turkoglu – emphatic yes, Wright – probably second-unit for second-unit but better D, and De Rozan up in the air, probably no worse than a second-unit swap, maybe a second for a first.
Arse … Playing lockdown defense is a high IQ job, because you must anticipate, remember, and work work work. I was a tremendous defensive player, and my offense was negligible … but I started and played my butt off rebounding, defending, snuffing … and was matched up with the opponents high scorer. I was never the all-star hero in school, but the coaches didn’t care about my feeelings..!!!
The one thing that stands out in all-round bballers is their complete game .. on offense and defense. There are so many players who can’t think without the ball in their hands .. they just vanish .. like TJ who I carefully watched when he wasn’t holding the ball … a total loss.
Hopefully, Hedo will be our Garbajosa++ replacement … and Demar … does he have enough NBA bball IQ …????
First off Maybe the best read of the off season. Well Done.
I think most of my thoughts have been touched on by the posts above. I hear the Kokuc comparison but Toni was much longer and we don’t have Scottie and MJ playing the passing lanes to make those deflections turn into dunks.
Shooting Guard is the weak spot. Marco is all offense, Wright is all defense and will have to play minutes at the 3 behind Hedo. the X Factor for this season is on Derozan as he is the only player on the roster that has the potential to play both ends at a starting level. He is going to get 20 minutes almost regardless due to our lack of a definitive starter. However, he’s just a 20 year rookie. I think he’s a much better shooter than he showed last year but he looks very deliberate and doesn’t seem to be able to improvise when he has the ball. The pull up jumper or drive with a spin back middle is all he seems to have at this point and you can see them coming a mile away. I think he could be very effective some games and not others which none of us need a crystal ball to predict. Think Jamario although I think he is smarter and in time won’t miss rotations etc. like Jackie Moon.
This is why I think Jack should and will play 15-20 minutes per night at the 2. I completely agree that the majority of STARTING shooting guards are too big for him to handle. But Eric Gordon, Ben Gordon, Jason Terry (should start this year), C. Lee, Barbosa, West, Foye or any of the guys in Golden State he would be effective against. Once you get to the guys in the 6′ 5″ range althought I think its silly to put a number on it he becomes to easy to shoot over as he isn’t long or a leaper. For instance a 6′ 4″ Mayo would just shot at will over him. Pretty much any back up 2 is also fair game so if Triano can find those minutes in the game where Calderon comes in after a few minute breather and he can slide Jack to the 2 (most likely end of the 2nd and 4th quarters) he can help us out big time.
We are really thin at the Small Forward position as well. Behind Turk we have Wright and thats really it. I think we might be some big line ups this year when Turk is on the bench hoefully DeRozan can slide to the 3 if you have Evans and Bosh or Rasho on the floor. But thats a sketchy plan. If Turk goes down we are in trouble.
We are reallt goin gto miss Parker more than people think. Its not as bad a the point guard point last year but we will need someone to step up at the 2-3 spot for us to be successful and it looks like the Rook is the key which is exciting because we have no reason to think he isn’t capable with his physical gifts but scarey comsidering he didn’t really stand out in College with the exemption of a great conference tourny which shouldn’t be over looked.
I think the major upgrade is that at now we have multiple guys who on a given night can have a big game. We know Bosh, Bargnani, Turk and Calderon will give you consitant production and now Jack can provide a bench player who can be more than a stop gap but a real difference maker. I really think DeRozan will have 10-15 nights where he looks like a star. The coaching staff has to figure out a way to balance the rotation to make sure the team doesn’t have the droughts it did last year. We out played the other team in many games last year for the majority of the time but a 17-5 run would always sink the ship. Lets hope Triano, Ivoroni and company are up for the callenge as they to are new working together.
I’ve said that SG is a big hole within the Raptor roster but I think the biggest problem will be at PG !!!
Jose get’s hobbled when he plays too many minutes .. and Jack will have to back him up with significant minutes.
The problem is this … they have different PG styles and mentalities, and the rest of the team must continually adjust, which is an opportunity for the opposition to take advantage of the Raptors as they alter their play.
This was very apparent between the different styles of Jose and TJ … the re-gearing of the team was palpable, and they floundered..!!!
A big challenge for Triano and the coaching staff will be to create a seamless as possible change when the PGs are changed. If the other players cannot adjust quickly, the Raptors will be vulnerable.
Other positions can be subbed easily, but not with the PG position .. and that’s why I believe the PG position may well be a big problem for the Raptors considering that Bosh and Bargs are slow to adjust their play. It’s tough for big men to adjust … believe it.
But Jack plays significant minutes. He averaged 33 mins last year and 28.6mpg over his career.
Changing styles between Calderon and Ford was successful; why do you think Calderon / Jack wont work?
Thank goodness for this site. I come here daily for the colorful comments and excellent posts. Thanks guys for keeping my enthusiasm alive during the offseason.
Nathan !!!!! If you want to continue reading this forum without guilt, you must contribute something more than just expressing your tribal honking feeeeelings … ya hear..???!!!!
Your punishment is to compose at least a decent 3 paragraph explanation of why you think the Raptors will NOT make the playoffs this season. Now get to work and start assembling your thoughts and share your opinions with the forum .. if you aren’t {{{chicken}}} ….!!!!!
…and you must refrain from comparing your high-school basketball exploits with the on-court challenges (etc.) faced by professional athletes. This is especially important because, reading b/w the lines, you sucked. Your punishment is to change your name to “High School Version of Antoine Wright”.
My comment – as Hedo goes so goe the season. Defensively, offensively, everything… Bargnani and Double D bring upside but our downside risk is 65% hedo, 20% bosh and 15% jose.
I thought he was referring to his defensive dominance in Grade 5 (after being held back 2 years)? TRIBALLLLLLL HONKERRRRRR!!!!!!
Actually I did suck at bball, even though I played a year of university bball but the competition was too great and I was dropped from the team. I actually excelled somewhat in track and field and that allowed me to play basic bball .. leg strength and speed .. plus what my coaches said was ‘high IQ’ defensive bball .. I didn’t like handling the bball offensively. It was an interesting experience in team play as opposed to individual performance.
The same thing happens in music, where pianist who mostly play solo, get into an orchestral group and love it .. because of the team ‘play’.
Once played in a bball game against a team composed of CFL players, guys from the US and they were decent at the game … and tough … another example of cross-athletics.
So when I read all the statistics being thrown around about players and the t.h. speculation and delusion, I laugh … obvious non-players masturbating about bball.
why doesn’t your “high IQ” defensive bball translate into high iq comments?
Well at least we know what you were not a Jamario Moon type – you didn’t like handling the ball. It’s all irrelevant, Antoine. Change your name and stop berating.
With his enthusiasm Nathan see the glass half full (an optimist) . FAQ see it as half empty (a pessimist).
FAQ sees it as completely empty.
I think Beli has a chance to be the greatest garbage time player we’ve had since Carlos Rogers.
PG is our weakness? FAQ one minute you are arrogantly criticizing other posters every time you have a differing opinion the next you are pointing out that PG is our biggest weakness? I can’t tell if your just stirring the pot or if you’re actually an idiot but grow up. Not only did you clearly suck at Basketball but I bet you’re one of those guys that got beat up a lot and now feels they need to play the jerk role every time you’re in a position to. Of course only provided there is a convenient layer of cyberspace in between you and your target. Grow up or get lost. You want to talk hoops great! You want to play cyber
_bully do it somewhere else. When you walk up tomorrow morning from the nightmares of high school wedgees and read this don’t bother responding. Just take it and move on as I have read my last FAQ post.
Great article Arse.
Seems like you guys are getting geared up for the season!
Agree with most of your points, and I think with the consideration that Kapono played a significant chunk of minutes last year, that defensively (and offensively) the wing spot has improved significantly.
Exactly NewRapCity! Its just like the comments about Shaq clogging the lane for lebron. It doesn’t make any sense. Did he clog it for Kobe, or wade, or penny? Then why a problem now? People throw out unsubstanciated garbage like that…then someone else says it…..then they tell someone else and so on. You can’t play small, you can’t play big. THERE ARE NO RULES. Every team is different. The Raptors have a unique team that will take a unique blending of their ability to play well so to say that 2 guys can’t play together is silly. To say to guys can’t be successful when they AREN’T playing togeth is crazy. Could Paul Pierre back up LBJ? FAQ “no he plays to differently to play when LBJ is on the bench. The rest of the players would be confused!”. The real reason the Blazers drafted Sam Bowie instead of MJ is that Bowie played more like their back up Center. MJ played a different style than their other SG.
Also what Dan said is right. 16 min at PG +10 at SG and their will be lots of injuries or match ups that will have him play extra minutes. He’ll average 30 minutes. He has to he is one of our best and saviest (is that a word?) Players. We have few players that aren’t a liability on one end or the other. Bosh and jack are the only 2 that are good at both. DeRozan could be in time and Bargs just might get to “solid” level.