Although there’s ****-all to talk about the show must go on. In the recent Triano interview he said:
All of a sudden we’ve got two teams now, we’ve got a starting group and a bench group, though I don’t know who’s in which one.
Let me help you out, Jay. Here’s your bench:
Jarrett Jack, Marco Belinelli, Antoine Wright, Reggie Evans, Rasho Nesterovic
How does this bench fare against teams we’ll be competing with?
I know this isn’t how the benches will exactly lineup and I also know that teams mix-and-match first and second unit players, but for the sake of discussion let’s go with this.
Celtics: Eddie House, Tony Allen, Brian Scalabrine, Rasheed Wallace, Baby Davis
They’re better. Eddie House is no longer someone you remember only because of his last name. He’s become a reliable three point shooter and has proven that his quick-release can be effective coming off any screen that provides him with a daylight of space. Scalabrine is a joke for various reasons but he’s found a nice with the Celtics and knows where his 3′s will come from with Garnett and Pierce on the court, the chemistry factor for Scalabrine is very high, thus making him a great fit even though he doesn’t have great talent. Rasheed Wallace might just be the signing of the summer, they lost Leon Powe but replaced him with someone twice as good and who makes the Celtics even meaner. Tony Allen is their Jarrett Jack and Baby Davis trumps Rasho.
Cavaliers: Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Leon Powe, Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Raptors win. Ilgauskas is their main advantage off the bench but he’s approaching 50. Leon Powe and Reggie Evans are a wash and I’d give Jack the advantage over Gibson. Nothing needs to be said for Parker and Moon. It’ll be very interesting to see how the Cavaliers’ role players fit in with what they’ve got going in the starting lineup. Wisdom says they need three-point shooting and they got Parker to complement Gibson in addressing that. However, nobody doubles Shaq anymore. Parker was also brought in for his size at the defensive end after the playoffs exposed Cleveland’s guards. I can’t imagine LeBron being too excited about the wing depth here.
Magic: J.J Redick, Mickael Pietrus, Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, Marcin Gortat
Even. It’s a question of known and unknown quantities when Belinelli goes up against Barnes or Pietrus. Nobody knows what to expect from the Italian whereas his counterparts have proven to be very effective swingmen. Redick’s range from three is mighty impressive but Jack’s the stronger defender although Redick is underrated. I’d call the offensive matchup even at the PG with Jack getting an edge defensively. Pietrus and Wright’s defense is even with Ryan Anderson being the X-Factor for the Magic. Rasho gets an edge over the surprisingly sought-after Gortat who I liken to Eric Montross, except with a childhood that gave him a bit of a mean streak.
Pistons: Will Bynum, Charlie Villanueva, Jason Maxiell, Kwame Brown, Chris Wilcox
Raptors. Barely. Belinelli reminds me of Charlie V – ability to explode offensively and a sieve on defense. Give Charlie V the edge because of the experience and aerodynamics. The frontline of Brown and Wilcox is highly questionable but they’re both younger and more athletic than Evans or Nesterovic. Ex-Piston Amir Johnson might beat out one of those two for the starting role but can’t see it happening early in the season. Wilcox is statistically a great player and gets his share of highlight-reel time but our veterans can counter. Maxiell is their most effective bench player with Charlie V being the best offensive player on either bench. Jack gets the edge at the PG. Not convinced that the Pistons are done dealing for the summer.
Bulls: Lindsey Hunter, Jannero Pargo, John Salmons, Joakim Noah, Jerome James
Raptors. After Hinrich the Bulls’ guard depth is questionable and you have to go with the Raptors here who trump them at PG (don’t know what impact Taj Gibson might have), SG (Pargo is technically their off-guard), and center. Joakim Noah is a good young garbage man but I feel Evans and Johnson (if given playing time) can counter. Salmons is the best offensive player on either bench and gets the nod over Wright. The defensively suspect Bulls could open up avenues for Belinelli who can use his size to get his shot off.
Hawks: Jeff Teague, Jamal Crawford, Maurice Evans, Zaza Pachulia, Joe Smith
Hawks. Jeff Teague was a steal for them but you can’t pick a rookie over Jack. Crawford and Belinelli have similar criticisms and Zaza Pachulia is a gritty and efficient center with a better inside game than any of our big men. The crafty Joe Smith is a better shooter than Rasho from 15-feet and Maurice Evans is a better offensive player than Wright. The Raptors couldn’t matchup with the Hawks’ athleticism last year and they’ve addressed that to a degree with Wright and Jack in there. The Hawks’ second unit can rebound against the Raptors, vice-versa is unknown. In the big picture, the Hawks aren’t going anywhere, last year’s second round appearance sounds about the peak for this unit.
Thoughts?
PS: I can’t believe the lack of respect that was shown to Oliver Miller, Dell Curry and Walt Williams in the recent polls.
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117 Raps
well, i guess it’s something to read…
couple things…the tendency to overrate players on the celtics simply because they’re on the celtics continues. most celtic fans LOATHE tony allen, feel scal is a farce, and realize that house can’t defend a bar stool. and that ‘sheed is living on rep more than anything (of course, a motivated ‘sheed is different than the model on display last season). the celtic mystique, i guess, makes up for all that.
overall, comparing benches is fun, but it depends on how you’re looking at how the benches would be deployed. if we’re simply matching up bench players, with the notion being ‘if my 5 bench guys were playing your 5 bench guys, who’d come out on top,’ then i’d like how the raps fare against the majority of the teams in the east. of course, as you mention, that’s not gonna happen, so you have to look at how the parts of the bench, interspersed with the starters, would fare in similar competition (i.e. house’s defensive liabilities aren’t as apparent if he’s on the floor with, say rondo, a guy who picks up the slack – and then some – defensively. you could say the same with belinelli & jack, for example).
Yeah I have to agree with your comment on “the celtic mystique” making players SEEM better. I think, and it’s only my guess, that Rasheed Wallace has enterd his “Ben Wallace” period, and we’ll see a continuation in his games regression possibly to the point where he’s a detriment to the quality of play. Also I’m not a believer of the “Garnett will motivate him to play hard” theory. If his body won’t comply then no motivation will help.
I really think that we’ll see Rasheed have a precipitous drop. He’s not known for his off season work ethic, and those are the players that all of a sudden show up one year and are a shadow of their former selves.
Man, I think I probably speak for everybody when I say I want the season to start now so we can stop all this armchair prognostication. Over at Bleacher you’ve got guys killing other guys over inches.
The Magic Fans are walking around like Dwight Howard lent them his cape. They’re espousing all of the teams virtues and none of it’s weaknesses. The time of rational discussion is gone.
You’d think we were all lying prostrate in a crack den and talking about which sh*t gets you higher. All twitchy and strung out. Incoherent rambling…
Yeah, exactly like I just did.
As you said, looking at those bench guys within the context of their entire team is the way to go. Put Scalabrine and House on the Pacers and they’re likely their two worst players, put them on the Celtics and the system fits them perfectly.
Rewind to last year’s playoffs and tell me how many times House and Scalabrine got exploited on defense. Other than Ben Gordon and Derrick Rose going insane in fourth quarters the Celtics’ team defense did alright. Doc Rivers’ helter-skelter defensive system works for the Celtics and House is a guy who’s job it is to apply pressure at the point. If the guy blows by him, they got enough discipline to help and recover. Same for Scalabrine. Individually, they’re not great, but within the system they function alright.
If anything, picking the Raptors bench which is brand spanking new and hasn’t proven a thing yet as having the edge is the one I felt would get the most criticism in the raps.
“If anything, picking the Raptors bench which is brand spanking new and hasn’t proven a thing yet as having the edge is the one I felt would get the most criticism in the raps.” — Well said Arsenalist, but in the same vein you give far too much credit to an aging uninspired (last 2-3 seasons) Rasheed Wallace. As many aging vets who have thrived on other times there are just as many who have failed to perform up to expectations. At this point Wallace has proven nothing beyond signing a contract.
“As you said, looking at those bench guys within the context of their entire team is the way to go. Put Scalabrine and House on the Pacers and they’re likely their two worst players, put them on the Celtics and the system fits them perfectly.”
That’s not a fair way to assess a bench. You could look at it the other way. Put Joey Graham on the Celtics and he could turn out to look very good.
If you want to tell which bench is better, simply swap the players teams. Would Antoine Wright do better in a Celtics system than Scalabrine? Abso-freakin’-lutely. You need to reward the players and not the system, otherwise the Celtics win in nearly every department thanks simply to KG’s leadership and intensity.
Last night I was looking at the very same bench player comparison and here you do a timely article … serendipity or ESP ???
I disagree on your Piston and Magic conclusions … and give those benches an up over the Raptors. Sorry …..
I agree completely about the Celtics bench being overatted. Tony Allen is a straight bum. Only players I like are Billy Walker and Big Baby. They let Gabe Pruiit go which I thought was a mistake. Sheed has value, not close to how he was, but he still can stretch the D from time to time with some threes.
I would say the Magic have a better bench though than Raptors. Ryan Anderson is going to emerge as a solid bench scorer, and Pietrus is a stud in terms of bench players. Gortat is a solid six fouls, and JJ can run around screens for hours in order to rest Vince’s legs.
http://www.BasketballinBlog.com – NBA News/Discussion
You seemed to over look either Ben Gordon or Rip Hamilton – one of whom will be coming off the bench.
Bynum – Gordon – Daye – Maxiell – Wilcox is a lot more of likely to be the second. I am surprised you didn’t put Ben Wallace at the starting PG with all those other big men you got in there.
For Chicago, why is Jerome James even considered on your list? I am assuming you went with Brad Miller for the starting center position giving the Bulls: Rose – Salmons – Deng – Thomas – Miller. IMO, it is more likely Noah starts at center and Brad Miller comes off the bench along with; Pargo – Hinrich – Johnson – Gibson – Miller/Noah.
Don’t over look the Wizards bench either.
I think he is allowed some artistic interpretation of the bench/starters… we don’t even know if Derozan will start (or Wright or Belleneli)
I wouldn’t give the Atlanta bench a rating better than ours… I think its pretty comaprable Crawford and Zaza may be better at their position, but Jack and Wright will be better at theirs. Rasho and Smith are a wash (actaully a game of one on one between them may be one of the most boring matchups around)….
Unless you enjoy defense and fundamentals… then it’d be a blast!
There’s a chance, I said chance, that Belleneli starts for chemistry reasons…
Belinelli.
he’s my favorite raptor, and he hasn’t even played a game.
There are only 3 Raptors that HAVE played a game for us (excluding scrubs). So alot of favourite Raps havent played a game yet ;)
We can’t pencil in DD as our starting SG. I’d rather give him the first and last 5 minutes of the 1st & 2nd quarters, and at least the last 5 of the third, instead of the first 5 min. of the first and second halves.
Personally, I think the starting job already belongs to Antoine Wright and it’s his to lose.
Have to disagree. Every indication from Jay has been that the starting job is Derozan’s to lose in training camp.
Perhaps your minute distribution would be better, but personally I prefer starting Derozan, letting him be a fifth option and work on his D and offensive boards. Plus with Wright as really the only proven backup 3, he may not see many minutes at the 2, which I think will go to Derozan and Beli (along with ~10-15 from Jack).
The problem is that the SG position is one of the most difficult to guard. If DD is not up to the task from day 1, then we have 5 starters that play mediocre to weak defence, and now you have to demote DD; not exactly a confidence booster, is it?
On the other hand, if you start Wright, then you have a good defender with the first unit. The only issue here is if you want Wright backing up Hedo. But DD is just as big as Wright, at least as athletic, and so DD can play backup SF as well.
I actually would not be surprised if in tight end-game situations we sometimes go with Jack-Wright-Hedo-Bosh-Bargnani and have Hedo as the primary distributor. That gives us 2 good defenders, and probably 3 mediocre ones (who are less likely to have to leave their man to help, because of the good defending guards).
If DD is not up to the task, then I expect that Jay will quickly remove him from starting.
I expect that Jay will give DD 4 or 5 preseason games and see how he does. If DD does OK, he’ll continue. If DD struggles, he’ll go to the bench. I expect that sort of evaluation to continue throughout the season. DD will get his minutes. It will just be a matter of when.
Bosh averaged last season 20/10.
Do you rate starter Chris Bosh mediocre to weak defensively???
WHAT A GAY ARTICLE!!!!!
+1
The only blog on the internet where a comment like that won’t get deleted. We respect free speech.
There were some comments deleted recently. I figured a change in policy.
Yes, there were…..ones that went against our clearly stated policy. Do a search.
As I recall, that wasn’t the case.
I’m all for free speech, but that is just noise. Suggesting the article is /weak/ and then adding a point of view is freedom of speech. Writing a one off while associating a person’s sexual preference with a negative connotation is, at best, useless — at least in my opinion.
agreed.
No doubt the comment was useless. This forum probably isn’t the place to exercise the limits of free speech – but I respect the fact that it wasn’t deleted. By allowing it to stand, we learn that JP’s comments are ones to be ignored and that Arsenalist is confident enough in his own material to allow even the most ridiculous criticisms to stand and face judgment in the court of public opinion.
How about: “WHAT A QUEER ARTICLE”…???!!!!
…or if the title of the article was: “Comparing our beyatch to others”..????!!!!
I guess it’s all in the mind of the beholder ….. GO RATPORS ..!!!!
Shut up :)
How about instead of FAQ: “QUEER”
Since the comment stands on it own, it does not take long for the reader to draw their own conclusion as to which of the two writers is most creative.
Those that want to police others always so by insulting the readers interpretive merits.
jp is just going through his gay male writer recognition phase, endorphins overwhelm him as he discovers a writers sexual preferences in prose. His sudden outburst is just his overwhelming urge to express that he understands.
Hmmm, I can’t find the negative connotation in there. Unless you are referring to the mention of gayness. If hearing (or reading) the word “gay” is negative to you, then you are the one being negative.
it’s a blog. to be honest everyone’s opinion is useless
Well said JP, well said…you are one articulate mofo
Rap of the day?
HAHAHA
Make my funk the P-funk!
what is gay about this article, bench depth is something that needs to be talked about, and this article taught me who was on the bench of the teams that will be competing with. Nevertheless, how about the wizards bench?
This posting thread was………………….GAY!!!!
I completely disagree with your assessment of the celtics. You’re giving the edge to House over Jack? Seriously?
Jarret Jack vs Eddie House: Easily Jarret Jack. His only weakness compared to Eddie House is the 3 point shooting – everything else Jack wins hands down.
Belinelli vs Tony Allen: Can’t say since Belinelli is as of yet unproven, but Tony Allen is complete ass. Sorry. There’s a reason they weren’t able to use him in the sign and trade with Marquis Daniels – the pacers want nothing to do with him.
Antoine Wright vs Brian Scalabrine: lord knows why Scalabrine was awarded such a long contract, but with him on the floor Wright’s defensive prowess can go towards guarding one of the big three (like Pierce).
Rasheed Wallace vs Rasho Nesterovic: Yeah, Rasheed has had a great career. And the edge certainly goes to him here. But did no one watch him on last season’s Pistons? It was worse than Vince’s last half-season in Toronto.
Reggie Evans vs Big Baby Davis: Even, with maybe a slight edge to Big Baby for the… um, more “polished” offensive game? Either way if Evans grabs his balls he might run to the bench and cry, so we may not even have to worry about him :P
There’s no way the Celtics have the edge of the bench. I agree with most of your other assessments, but you just sorta handed a trophy for the celtics bench when they’re clearly the weakest of the big 3.
And Big Z has been a formidable centre, especially last season. Just ’cause he’s old doesn’t mean he’s bad. He was one of the most efficient centres coming out of his injury last season.
THE REGGIE COMMENT MADE ME LOL, GENIUS !
No idea why you have a -7 :P
That commment made me piss myself
Nice post, but I didn’t give House the edge over Jack. Just said that House is a lot more serviceable than what people thought he could be and that he fits in nicely.
I really haven’t seen much from House lately to make me believe he is serviceable whatsoever. He’s just so one-dimensional. If he loses his jumper (which he did last season) he is damn near useless.
If he’s playing the point, just apply pressure, and watch the turnovers mount. It’s quite simple. Jack would be perfect for that job.
nut grabber comment was hilarious
“Joakim Noah is a good young garbage man”
He played some very good ball in the playoffs this year, remember? Something like 13 boards per game, +10 ppg, great presence during crunch time…
If KG hadn’t been injured, do you think Noah would have averaged 10RPG; and do you think the series would have gone seven games?
I dont’t.
Noah (and Thomas) are both young career back-ups (i.e. garbage men).
Ok, thanks, I didn’t get the “garbage man” definition right then, it sounded a lot more negative than ‘back-up’.
‘If KG hadn’t been injured, do you think Noah would have averaged 10RPG’
You’re probably right, but we can’t really tell for sure, can we? KG just wasn’t there, whereas Noah was in the game…Maybe, just to stick to suppositions, he would have grabbed 10RPG with a healthy KG… (I believe it was 13 RPG in that series).
You know what they say: the absent is always wrong.
Maybe Joakim – considering his age and his role – has still a lot to develop and confirm…and maybe he will turn out to be a playoff beast.
‘and do you think the series would have gone seven games?’
No, it was a huge surprise, considering the two teams, *even with KG injured*. They should have done better anyway. A lot better.
Was Noah a factor in that seven game series? I do think so.
I think “garbage man” is a reference to his style of play, not his value to a team.
A garbage man would clean up the boards and do the dirty work inside, make the hustle plays.
Garbage player (like scrub) is also a term used for players who only play the “garbage minutes” at the end of blowout games (whether on the loosing or winning side).
Not what I hear it used for. I’m with Arsenalist here.
I would say “Garbage Man” and “Garbage Player” carry very different connotations.
Agree that a garbage player is one used in garbage time, but a garbage man – to me at least – has always rung as a role.
100% correct.
Holy semantics, batman!
Villaneuva is not going to be off the bench,
Are you kidding me ?
Detroit’s starting lineup will look like Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Villaneuva, (Kwame Brown/Wilcox/Wallace)
The Hairless Wonder will definitely be starting – which further deletes the Piston’s bench,
I was thinking the same thing when he had Charlie V, Maxiel, Wilcox and Brown on the bench. the starting 5 mustve been stuckey, gordon, hamilton, prince and wallace, which would be small and leave nothing for the bench.
gordon will come off the bench and play 30+ minutes.
detroit will suck this year
Anyone who thinks Rasho gets the nod over Gortat has had too much sun this summer and isn’t thinking clearly. Sorry Arsenlist….
Yeah, Rasho is getting really overrated here.
Rasho isn’t overrated he only rates himself higher than everybody else.
It’s not too much exposure to sun that’s rating him too high, it’s too much exposure from last year’s terrible triple threat of injured JO, Joke Voskuhl, and POB.
Its hard not to overrate Rasho when you consider that he signed here for 1.8 million. You could have 12 Rasho’s on the team for the price of one J.O. On the other hand, J.O. will get you 5 more points per game than Rasho – albeit using six more shots. So I can see where the rest of the money went.
> PS: I can’t believe the lack of respect that was shown to
> Oliver Miller, Dell Curry and Walt Williams in the recent
> polls.
It’s my guess the fan base has constantly(?) exponentially(?) grew. Especially in the last few years with the Raptors gaining so many European fans. If true, more ppl will know the newer players.
I can’t believe that 8 people voted for Carlos Rogers over Mo Pete. It’s proof that Carlos and his family are loyal followers of this blog!
LOL! I voted for Carlos “Kidney” Rogers! ;P
Carlos rogers is………………GAY!
i watched a couple Raptor classic games and Rogers lit it up, but the raptors were terrible. tracy murray, oliver miller, etc
also, look at the win/loss of the raps teams that miller and williams played on……..just saying…..
I think the hate towards Oliver Miller in this city was planted by Butch Carter. I loved the way Butch used to handle unhappy players. He publicly called Miller a “cancer in the locker room” while he was still a member of the team and Miller complained that Butch was trying to ruin his reputation in the league. In the middle of the Raptors first ever playoff series against the Knicks, Butch started legal proceedings against Marcus Camby, who happened to be playing for New York. “Character Defamation” was the charge I believe. The charge was later dropped, and the Raps did not win a single game. Good times…good times…
With all due respect, the author of this post sounds way too optimistic, which is surprising considering what I’ve read here in the past. Outside of Jack and Rasho, there is no one in our bench that is good enough to start in the NBA. Outside of maybe the Bulls or Hawks, every one of the benches are better than ours.
How exactly is that a valid argument? I can make the same case for every other team listed in the article:
Celtics: Outside of Rasheed Wallace, no one on their bench is good enough to start (well, maybe Big Baby).
Cleveland: Outside of Zydrunas Ilgauskas, no one their bench is good enough to start (and AP is a shell of his former self when he first started for the raptors).
Magic: Outside of Marchin Gortat and Mickael Pietrus, no one on their bench is good enough to start.
Pistons: Outside of Charlie Villanueva, no one on their bench is good enough to start.
Bulls: Outside of John Salmons and Joakim Noah, no one on their bench is good enough to start.
Hawks: Outside of Jamal Crawford and *maybe* Zaza, no one on their bench is good enough to start.
Generally your bench consists of 1-2 players that are good enough to start. The rest of the bench is based on role players that can come in and meet certain needs for a particular game. In that regard, the Raptors have a very strong bench. As do the Bulls, Magic, and Hawks.
Pistons: Since Villa will be starting, they don’t have any starting-caliber bench players.
Bulls: Salmons will also be starting, and Noah couldn’t start on my team. Raps bench >> Bulls bench
*I agree with Arsenalists’ comparative analysis.
Wright was a starter for Dallas last year and was pretty highly regarded by the coaching staff too …
100% – Which is why I expect him to start. We need an experienced, defensive-minded starting SG.
DD will be better served playing against other bench players, to start the season.
That is very true. And if possible, I would always have him in the game against the opposing backup SG, and with either Jose or Hedo in the game (to help with setting him up).
That could be fantastic for his confidence (if he is tearing his man up, and not just in garbage time either).
I don’t want to nominate anyone as starter this early.
The camp has not opened. I want DD believing that he can win a starting job if he puts in the work.
I also want the experienced players to know that they may lose a job if they don’t.
TRizzo, you are correct. Nobody should go into this training camp thinking that they have the starting position locked down (except for Bosh and the Big Turk). I know we were scared of open competitions in the past – since there was always the chance that Jamario Moon or Joey Graham might win a spot – but with the new roster their should be a genuine opportunity for players like Jack, Derozan, Wright, Belinelli, Evans, Johnson and Rasho to win a starting job should their play warrant it. If Bargs and Calderon can’t prove they can win a spot outright against this type of competition, then they probably aren’t the players we thought they were to begin with.
It could be that lots of people that follow this blog are in my age category, I’m 20 so dell curry last played for us when i was 13, so i mean i dont really remember shit about him. And for the record all3 of those players stats when playing for the raptors where nothing special.
Believe me son, you did not miss much.
Cavaliers:
Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Leon Powe, Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Raptors win? Are you serious? The weakest link here is Moon… and I think these 5 could beat any other bench in the East, except Magic (again taken into account bench against bench only).
Magic:
Williams, Mickael Pietrus, Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, Marcin Gortat + Redick
This is the best bench in the league! Pietrus will run for the 6th man title. Ryan Anderson will become a starter by the end of the season pushing Brandon Bass back to the bench.
Agree with Immaculate regarding Pistons. Ben Gordon off the bench competing for the 6th man title. Wilcox should start.
p.s.
Amir Johnson will be our first big off the bench by the end of the season.
magic bench looks good on paper, but…
how much does williams actually have left? is he their primary back-up point? yikes…kind of an ‘off-the-scrap-heap’ pick-up, no? pietrus is def. a notch above any of the raps wing bench players, but i’m not sold on barnes – good defender, streaky, doesn’t always seem into it, y’know? as for gortat, you have to factor in that he’s almost certainly going to be traded in december, so his bench spot then becomes whatever they get for him (and since they’re probably looking to clear $$ off the books, it likely won’t be much). redick? decent in spurts, but streaky, can’t defend, and can’t really create.
cavs – when you’ve got LBJ running things, the bench just needs to stay out of his way, get themselves open, not fuck up, and play D. should suit AP & moon fine. i’m eagerly awaiting the first time james witnesses moon’s shit-eating grin after launching a 26-footer 6 seconds into the shot-clock (with his man playing 10-feet off him, of course).
Agree with Redick assessment, but take into account that he’s grown a year. This season he’ll be better. I have not touched Barnes at all… even though he was alright in Phoenix. Orlando has enough solid wings even without him. I agree with Marz regarding bench of 2 main guys… with the rest being fillers. As for Gortat, I do not know where your “he’s almost certainly going to be traded in december” comes from. No comment here. Jason Williams is a solid player and is more than capable backing Nelson. Its true we havent seen him for a year, but I’m sure Orlando asked him to shoot some hoops before signing him. One player I’m really big on is Ryan Anderson. I think he’s due for a breakout year. On a team like Orlando its scary!
re. gortat – i highly doubt a team so far over the tax level would be willing to pay him that much to back-up a guy who’s the cornerstone of the franchise (howard), while also paying lewis close to $20M per. they can’t trade him until december, but i’d be shocked if he wasn’t dealt then (or shortly thereafter).
williams has to be one of the most overrated players of the last 15 years. given the fact he didn’t play last year, and that his seasons before that were unimpressive, i’d be surprised if he made much of an impact. of course, as long as nelson comes back healthy, they won’t need him for much. is AJ still on their roster?
Gortat is a BYC player, and while they could use their trade exception on him in December, I think they’re going to keep him for the playoff run and then unload him when the cap (ultimately) goes down next season.
I’m sorry but now you just throw out there two speculations based on nothing. Ya, Orlando is paying tax. Their bosses know that and willing to pay. As for the “15 years” – its just absurd! I mean, why 15? Why not 12 or 18 or any other double digit number for that argument? C’mon, Williams was solid in Heat uniform when they took the championship. Ya Wade was/is a monster… ya Shaq was Shaw… etc, but Williams was their point guard logging 31.8 minutes/game. He’s never been a superstar but he can play. The guy sees the court with his back and is most definitely a high-light on a fast break. I bet the contract of Marcus Banks that Williams will be solid behind Nelson!
I agree with the Ryan Anderson viewpoint. I see him as another Troy Murphy type (big man, rebounds, hits 3s, not star, but far from scrub or role player). That type of player would be perfect for the Magic especially next to Howard and Lewis.
I very much hope you are right about Amir Johnson.
I think that if Amir can stay out of foul trouble, than this possibility becomes reality. He is 6’11′, young, athletic, a great shot-blocker and a good rebounder. If he does well defensively (including not being foul-prone), then Rasho would probably only have an advantage against him when it comes to the biggest centers (e.g., Shaq).
And if this all comes true, with basically traded Ukic for a good backup 3/4.
Seems to me that Jay can just play Amir for every backup minute at the 4 and 5.
He could let any foul trouble be the limiting factor on his playing time. Not holding the kid back, and his minutes will naturally increase as he learns not to foul too easily.
Early on, most of the time he’ll get in trouble early (I expect so anyway), and Rasho and Reggie can hold down the fort.
just to further entertain a hypothetical scenario… Amir Johnson becomes a defensive beast, leading the league in shot blocks eventually becoming our starting 4
Well done Arse, solid analysis. I disagree with most of it (especially the Gortat bit), but whatever… We’ll see how it plays out.
The bench isn’t nearly as bad as it was last year. I’m not nearly as optimistic as you are, but the basic point is that there are some good players on the bench now. I agree.
I’ve watched the Raps since the beginning and I gotta say walt and oliver miller don’t really stand out to me….well for basketball reasons anyways…..dell was the man on that best raps team ever though, so consistent and clutch. I’d say easily the best shooter we’ve ever had(and quickest!) but he was matched against Jose who already has done alot for the Raps and is extremely likeable and is, you know, a starter. match up dell with other bench players new or old and he probably wins a round or two.
The thing with walt williams and oliver miller was that during their first seasons with the Raps, they were real standout guys and then in 2nd/3rd years with the team, really underwhelmed. I remember Walt Williams being absolutely money for us during his first year on the team, and represented the raps in the All-Star 3-point shooting contest…contract year if I remember correctly…then really struggling in year 2. Oliver Miller really helped the Raps during his first year on the team by being one of those wide body/soft touch type guys, but then later he just looked slow and out of shape. Is role and production dropped fast. I guess it all depends on what you choose to remember about these guys.
The Bulls might have the best bench in the East and the guys listed aren’t accurate. Noah will start. They have 2 guards who can play either position and have started in the past. A starting caliber big man in Brad Miller. You said they are weak at the guard behind Hinrich? How many guards do you want? Especially when you have guys like Rose, Pargo and Hinrich that can play either spot.
PG Rose
SG Salmons
SF Deng
PF Thomas
C Noah
Bench
PG Hinrich
SG Pargo
SF James Johnson
PF/C Brad Miller
Most seem to think that Anthony Johnson will be the back up. :)
“Ilgauskas is their main advantage off the bench but he’s approaching 50″
LOL!
Ilgauskas is still better than any other substitute center in the East!
All i want to know about the Raptors bench is when the hell are they going to get minutes. Seriously Bargs, Bosh, Calderon, and Hedo will all play 30 min or more. The bench is deep, but i want to see how Triano gets everybody some burn.
Well, a quick breakdown might look like:
Jose – 34 min (PG)
Derozan – 16 min (SG)
Turk – 36 min (SF)
Bosh – 38 min (PF)
Bargs – 36 min (C)
Jack – 26 min (14 PG, 12 SG)
Beli – 16 min (SG)
Wright – 16 min (12 SF, 4 SG)
Rasho – 12 min
Reggie – 10 min
And Amir steals minutes from either of the two backup bigs.
Seems to be plenty of minutes to go around, except perhaps at the SG spot, and those will probably vary depending on matchups so that say, Beli will get 20 minutes one game, Wright will get more the next, etc.
i’m thinking they’ll try to limit jose to around 30 mpg, and give more minutes to jack & belinelli (or have hedo handle point duties in certain circumstances when they want to go big).
i’d also be surprised if bosh, bargs or hedo ended up averaging the mpg’s noted above…seems pretty high. not by much, mind you (maybe 2-3), just a bit more than is likely, IMO.
I agree with yertu. And it Triano’s interviews have been any indication, I believe Bosh will be limited to something like 34-36 mpg.
I can’t recall exactly which interview, but Triano was talking about making sure Bosh still had the bounce in his step after the allstar break to be able to help carry the team into the playoffs – which is when we need him most anyway.
If you’ll recall early last season Bosh was second in mpg to Stephen Jackson or something like that. Mitchell didn’t give him a break and by the second half of the season Bosh was gassed (also thanks to the Olympic run).
Great! All the better for my point – seems like lots of time to go around for the bench players.
Thanks for responding just wanted to see someone’s oppion on the subject.
Good point. I think the rotation was Sam Mitchell’s biggest flaw. He played too many guys and never gave anyone consistant time to get into the flow and know their roles. Toronto has lots of guys that deserve to play but a 10 man rotation is not a good idea. For example if they try to give Marco, DeRozan, Jack and Wright all minutes at the 2 I think it will negetively effect all of them. Same goes for the Bigs. Bosh, Bargs, Evans and Rasho will all get burn. If they try to give Amir and god forbid O’Bryant minutes it will mess things up. Very few players can play 8 minutes here and 12 minutes there and be effective.
I say start Calderon, Jack, Hedo, Bosh and Bargnani and then have Evans, Rasho and DeRozan come off the bench. Maybe Wright in limited minutes for Hedo but I would like to see if DeRozan can play some 3. I even think you could play Bosh, Bargs and Evans together a bit.
Short version….Less player, more minutes is the best formula for consistancy
Also the best formula for injury
yertu makes the key point – it’s not like we’ll be going 5 on 5 against other teams 2nd unit. Its how the coaches use the ability on the bench.
All I know is our starting five is stronger than last years and we have a deeper, more talented bench than the crew we had last year.
Potential is there, its up to the coach to find right chemistry.
Exactly Tinman!
My concern is who will provide a spark? They have many servicable backups but the great benches tend to have guys that raise the level of play when they come in. I think DeRozan and Jack have a shot to be that guy but I’m not sure Jack won’t be in the starting line up.
I would say Belinelli has a good chance of being that guy, if Derozan starts (which I think is likely).
And I’m pretty sure Jay will want Jack to be fresh coming in for Jose, so even if he does play major minutes at the 2, he likely won’t start.
Plus, as mentioned above, the bench won’t be a unit, it’ll be mixed in with starters throughout the game, so perhaps a ‘spark’ player won’t always be needed.
Don’t forget Amir Johnson. He may not stay on the floor very long, but he is a great shot blocker (when he hasn’t picked up too many fouls) and can finish above the rim. How’s that for a spark.
what is going to be the pistons starting five.
is it charlie, prince, hamilton, gordon, stuckey?
It’ll likely be Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Villanueva, and Wilcox.
I guess there’s a chance Kwame might out-play Wilcox, but I doubt it. Also, Kuester’s already stated that Ben Gordon is coming off the bench.
Their C situation is pure shite. For that reason the Raps will finish ahead of them.
WOW!!!! .. Commentary is getting rather long-winded now … with only 22 main comments and the rest as replies. Really had to scroll a lot to get to the bottom of the thread.
I can’t read all the stuff posted, but perhaps this signifies the adolescent one-liner blurters have decided to take a time out and let the erudite elucidate their thoughts.
Great forum …!!!!
I think the Celtics, Cavs, Magic and Bulls all have strong to very strong benches. I think the Hawks have a mediocre to slightly above average bench.
While the Raptors have a below average to poor bench.
How would you have ranked the Raptors bench last season?
I would have described them as a very poor bench unit.
I had them third worst in the league … but in hindsight, I was giving Bargnani too much credit out of hope for his individual development, and they should have been bottom two side by side with Miami.
lack of respect for Big O and The Wizard especially
damn newbie raptors fans, I love ya but get with the Knowledge!
ben gordon will co me off the pistons bench, while charlie v will be starting
raptors´ asses remain kicked