Ladies and gentlemen, the summer of doin’ work is officially over. BryCo, probably for the last time before the season starts, picked up the phone and turned nothing into something more then nothing…more or less. Amir Johnson (and some dude named Sonny Weems), of Detroit-Dumars fame, are the latest Raptors. The causalities: Roko “I hate my life because I’m playing behind Douby” Ukic, and Carlos “$3mill euros a year can’t buy me happiness” Delfino.
By my count, that is 9 new players on this roster. NINE. Seriously, 60% of our roster was assembled during 6 weeks of whirlwind activity. Integrating them all while fielding a team with playoff designs will be a challenge to say the least. Triano sure has his work cutout for him, and if he fails, I can almost hear the excuses now: “he had 9 new players to work with…” I don’t know about y’all, but I’m freaking wiped out.
Why I like this deal:
His contract expires at the end of the year if he doesn’t work out, we get some cap relief (almost $4mil) for the Summer of Bosh. The Raptors get much deeper in the front court, which will help when we face Orlando, Cleveland and Boston who have all become bigger and stronger up front. Amir potentially becomes the best shot blocker. Probably the sweetest reason: we never have to see Patrick O’Bryant play another minute in a Raptor uniform.
Why I don’t like it:
We had an offer out to Pops which he would have probably signed because nobody else has any interest, so he could have been our 4th big (instead of Johnson and ahead of O’Bryant). It can be argued that the drop-off from Johnson to Pops wouldn’t be very significant. There is drop-off, don’t get me wrong, but when you are talking 5+ minutes a game (between Evans and Rasho, I don’t see the 4th big getting lots of burn), the drop-off wont be that significant and wont cost us games. While Antoine Wright can play the SF, he is far more effective at playing SG:
Offense:
SG PER = 10.7
SF PER = 9.0
Defense
SG = Opponent PER = 16.3
SF = Opponent PER = 18.0
Belinelli played zero percentage of the available minutes at the SF position for the Warriors last season, zero. We should stop talking about him as a backup SF, that’s all I’m saying. If we could have got Johnson for Delfino/Ukic, we could have gotten a lower tier SF who is a stopper on the perimeter, that’s all I’m saying.
Some quick thoughts on what this trade means:
- We wont be getting that backup SF anymore, meaning that defensive stopper off the bench will have to be Wright or Belinelli…I’ll pause while you stop laugh at that last one
- …DeRozan is assured a big role during his rookie campaign (I was hoping he would be eased in) from the get go
- Belinelli will have a much larger role, regardless of his readiness
- Joey Graham wont be coming back, but bizarro-Joey (Sunny Weems looks like a freaky Joey doesn’t he?) is more then capable of covering his uhhh…whatever he did on the bench
- O’Bryant is now the 3rd big off the bench, which means if Pops signs that contract offer (didn’t know if that offer was rescinded at time of writing this article), he will probably be released, or bought out, or driven out to the bus station and handed a ticket to Iowa or something
- People are super excited about this trade, we got 189 comments about it yesterday…man I love you guys.
I gotta say, I like this kid so far.
Oh, just in case you’re wondering why I didn’t say anything about Weems, I never heard of the guy until yesterday, and I expect him to be fighting with Douby for minutes. There, I said something.
196 Raps
Trade’s looking really good.
Best team of the summer: the Raps.
Now a totally different game starts, it’s called NBA regular season. Let’s hope Toronto will give birth to a beautiful fruit, as the synthesis of these summer premises.
How Hegelian of you.
the owl of Minerva flies at dawn.
Wasn’t it a noctule? :-)
The night where all cows are black….
It wouldn’t surprise me if Amir Johnson is the first big off the bench by mid-season. At least he has that potential. Pops does not. I watched a couple of games this past week on RAPS TV and although you have to love Pops’ energy, after getting an offensive rebound, the man was clueless with the ball. Good acquisition.
Please remember that for many games last season Pops was playing with an injured hand which meant that he had trouble finished after a rebound
I hate that excuse. If he was that hurt, he shouldn’t have been playing minutes, especially in a blow out, like he did.
People need to realize that he just isn’t a good player. The lack of interest this summer and in the past is proof positive.
I don’t know about not being a good player, but using an injury as an excuse bugs me too.
hmmm. We slate players for not playing at the slightest sign of injury and we critisize them when they are injured and do try and battle through it. The fact is the Rabs were bad enough to need to play a injured Dleaguer and Pops needed the burn in order to get a contract.
I can’t find the link but the news in the UK is that Pops is close to an agreement with another NBA Team. If I can find the link I will post it here.
That team is reportedly Houston
We had that link here last week, so don’t bother. As B-Rad states, it’s Houston, which I think is a concocted story since there is nothing related to Houston and Pops except when they were looking to bring him aboard a few seasons ago.
I didn’t “slate” him for playing hurt, but he could have used the opportunity to show how he could perform outside of grabbing rebounds. Like, for example, staying in position. He is a horrible floater that leaves his man on the defensive end as soon as the shot goes up. Stick to him, show us different aspects of your game.
Using your observation, we were bad enough last year that he didn’t even make a good enough impression to warrant a second look this year. That is pretty telling of his talent and exactly why he isn’t on an NBA roster as yet.
Good news for you is that he can book his flight for GB and play for the national team.
Not until he gets a contract.
Pretty sure I read somewhere that GB didn’t want to purchase the mandatory insurance for players without professional contracts, so they were only allowing players with contracts to play.
Agreed, not too sure how you can argue Pops would be better than Amir (not sure where the drop-off came in the article), but Amir can play both frontcourt spots and has actual NBA experience. I’m now comfortable with this team. They have enough depth to handle a few injuries and a solid mix of veterans/young talent. Hell, maybe even Sonny Weems will do something at some point in the season.
For every 2 O-boards Pops pulled down he got 1 stolen away because he held the ball at his knees. Sure he was energetic, but that is definitely clouding some fans’ memories of his actual ability.
I didn’t argue Pops would be better, I said the drop-off wouldn’t be that big.
I’m also pretty comfortable, but would have rather signed pops and got a backup SF…meh.
I think there is still a very real possibility that we get another 3 signed or from a trade…I know BryCo has been busy, but I dont think he is done…I think Banks is gonna be traded…there will be someone out there to take him and give something back (Hi, we traded Hoffa for Hump, and some old dude named Devine (!!) for bellinelli, plus memphis still has an organization)…we may need to take on more money back (as Doug Smith alluded to), but I really believe he (”Las Vegas” Banks) is not gonna be on the roster by training camp…
The only situations I see Banks being traded is:
- if we take back an even worse contract
- we can’t resign bosh and ship him out along with cb4 in a sign and trade
- we have to trade a 1st round pick along with banks and take back a bad contract
Of course we would be taking back a worse contract. I think the point would be to bring back a much better player.
For example… Nocioni? Maggette? Both have terrible contracts longer than Banks (so there would be a financial incentive to move them) but are players that could be primary backups (Noc) or starters (Mags) on this team.
BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE DANH!!!
Didnt think it was thaattttt far fetched
Nocioni and Maggette technically may have “worse” contracts than Banks in that they are longer and for more money, but the fact that they actually see court time immediately makes them more valuable than Banks, regardless of their dollar figure.
Only way I could see that happening is if Banks was expiring, but even then, giving up an actual contributor for a little cap room ($4 mil is it?) would be a very bold move.
Banks may not be expiring but there is a possibility of moving his 9mil over two years if we take back something like 12-14 mil over 3 years. Sure, it might be a tough sell, but GMs are clearly in a mindset that might accommodate such a transaction. People have to stop assuming they know unequivocally what is and isn’t possible in this crazy damn league. I’ve been reading blogs all summer like the rest of you and it’s clear no-one, myself included, owns a working crystal ball.
Sacrmento may want to move Nocioni at some point since they won’t be contending, but his deal is honestly not that bad, especially since his salary *decreases* the next two years. If you guys stop thinking about every trade situation in a bubble — Toronto isn’t the only team out there you know — you’d realize that Sacramento would likely field a much better offer for Nocioni than we can make. Every team has some kind of contract they’d like to move, and every team also has a bunch of expirings that could be used in a trade. Our expirings are nothing special, and few teams want a player who will contribute nothing (Banks). At least for a big like Jahidi White (for example), you could argue that he provides another big body. Point guards that can’t do the things point guards are supposed to do are largely undesired.
Instead of thinking of every player who simply makes more money and has a longer contract than Banks, you need to be more realistic. Players that would come back for Banks would more likely be guys like Beno Udrih, Marko Jaric, DeSagana Diop, etc, than guys like Nocioni.
As for Maggette… honestly? He’s super over-rated, and yes, his contract his horrible. BC would need to have a brain cramp to come up with a trade involving Banks for Maggette. It’s not that big a deal to let our 15th player serve out the rest of his year on the inactive list and then try to deal his expiring contract next year. It’s a big deal if we take on an even worse contract that will hurt us until 2012/2013 more than help.
I can’t evaluate Pops at all last season because the Raptors are well out of playoff contention when we signed him. It is like our opponents were playing us like a 20-win team and letting Pops do whatever he wanted either because the opponents were already qualified for playoffs before they were officially qualified for playoffs or they were out of contention.
We played a ton of teams down the stretch that needed to beat us to stay in playoff contention… and didn’t. Maybe they underestimated us, or maybe we were just playing better.
In any case, I hate that excuse. A game is a game is a game. Everyone wants to win whether it’s the first game or the last.
would have rather got a backup SF.
You seem to make statements without any bases of reality.
First of all, how many teams showed any interest in Delfino
or Ukic.
And how many teams were willing to do a sign and trade deal
who also had trade exceptions.
The answer the Bucks.
If I’ve missed something tell us dumb readers which teams (who
had a backup SF ) were willing to do a sign and trade deal.
An angle I have not seen reported or commented on in all of this is that Colangelo once again structured a deal that has upside potential for the Raps, but he also kept his word to Ukic and to Delfino; Ukic wants to play and when he did the deal for Jack he indicated in the press conference that Roko’s agent said Roko wanted to be moved if he wasnt going to play; similarly Delfino needed to get back into the NBA; Colangelo took care of both of them AND got upside for Toronto….the agents like to work WITH him as they know he is upfront and upstanding…that will go a long way in getting things done in this league
You’re absolutely right, and that’s a big point about his way of working, which enhances relationships and generates surplus value.
I’m falling in love with B.Co. all over again for the first time. (or however that goes…)
We could have rejected Delfino’s rights, and let him sign with a team of his choice, like NY for instance.
I don’t think we did him any favours by shipping him off to Milwaukee. The number one consideration for the Raptors were the Raptors, finding playing time for Ukic and Delfino was secondary.
No need to spin our GM as a great humanitarian, business is business.
ACTUALLY…. Delfino’s rights were recinded as part of the Turkoglu sign and trade, so he was already a UFA. We however did not recind his bird rights – meaning that we could still exceed the cap to sign him. BC tried to negotiate a short term and/or reasonable contract for him but it didnt work out so he traded for Belinelli to replace him. Once that happened he simply traded Ukic (disgruntled) and found Delfino a team that would give him a contract and playing time he was looking for while filling a minor hole in our roster with a young and potentially solid NBA role-player.
For the record, you can’t rescind a player’s Bird rights. The rights belong to the player, not the team, and follow him wherever he goes.
You clearly have no clue what you’re talking about. “We could have rejected Delfino’s rights” makes no sense at all.
Delfino could sign with any team he wanted. Since Toronto clearly did not want to bring him back, and the Bucks were interested in signing Delfino, BC did him a favor by making the sign and trade where all sides benefit. The Bucks got a player that may not have been able to sign since they only had $2.8 mil left of their MLE; Delfino gets the contract that he wants; and the Raptors get some value from a player who they were about to lose for nothing.
If you think for a second that Delfino is being forced to go to Milwaukee, then you obviously have no idea how S&Ts work.
You are probably right here, I thought we owned his rights, and those that signed him needed to compansate us for those rights.
In fact if he is working with agents to help them find destinations for the clients, at the expense of our organization, I wan’t his balls on a pike. There is only so much time for charity, and that should be spent on our community.
Ukic wasn’t going to play here. Clearly Delfino wasn’t either or he would’ve been signed by now. Rather that sit on his hands and say, like some people here (nobody in specific) ‘Ukic has potential, let’s see what he can do in the future even though he’ll never see the court in the next 4 years’ he made a move that will help Roko get PT. It’s obviously not at the expense of our organization, but it’s certainly helpful in several ways.
- If you’re a young guy buried on the depth chart with no chance of seeing the court, he’ll try to accomodate you in a move. Thus, more prospects are likely to sign with us knowing that BC will give him the best opportunity to succeed in the NBA, wherever that may end up being.
- If you do your best to get guys the most money available, agents are likely to direct their other clients here, or at least discuss with other agents how BC helped. Even if the Marion S&T didn’t help get us cap space, I’m sure his agent would’ve remembered BC participating in such a deal to maximize Shawn’s earnings.
This obviously wasn’t at the expense of our team. He helped our team, while helping former players find a suitable destination. It’s not charity, it’s planting a seed hoping for the favour to be returned in the future. Very good business.
well stated, sir. Wish I could have expressed it as well as you did.
Ahh but you miss my point… there is a way to conduct business that the deal becomes a win for all involved… this was just another example in a long line of deals that BC has done that have not only benefited the Raptors but also the logic worked for the other time and in this case the players… and there is a long term benefit to be accrued as well as the short term one of the immediate deal… If he had renounced Delfino’s rights he would have gotten nothing in return for them… Delfino would never have gotten his chance to play in the NBA with a multi-year deal that he wanted…and Roko would have languished without being moved… I am not spinning BC as a humanitarian nor as charitable… but by taking the interests of others into account in his negotiating AND from what i see being upfront and also true to his word, he has built up a reservoir of good will not just with other GM’s but also with players and their agents as someone they can work with… Marion was another case in point… his communications ( at least what has been stated publically) with CB4 another good example….
I always laugh when I hear about agents and GM’s doing each other favours.
How would you like it if your divorce lawyer made a deal with the other divorce lawyer to help him out in this case and in turn he will help you out in another case? It’s called, anti-trust and it is highly liable. The clients gets screwed and only the negotiators win. THIS WILL COST YOU YOUR JOB.
The agent’s sole responsibility is to represent his client and get the best and most for him. Personal agendas are totally unprofessional.
Do agents and GM’s tell each other they are doing a favour to the other party. Of course, its called posturing, but the reality is that if there was a better deal that their client wanted, the client would have taken it.
This was business. What can you do for the Raptors, what can the Raptors do for you? When both sides were happy hands got shook. If Delfino wanted to play in the NBA he needed to deal with Bryan there was no way around it.
I understand what you are saying on a certain level…but there is a little something known as “empathy” even in a business relationship. One need not grind or squeeze every drop out of a lemon to make the lemonade taste appreciably better (a bit cheesy but hope the metaphor works!).
Being straight, trying to help careers need not be injurious/exclusive to getting a winning deal for the Raptors. I can see where there might be gms and agents being not entirely upfront or even reneging on deals because a piece of paper was not signed. Perfectly legal but not entirely good business. I guess the argument is that BC seems to be building relationships where ultimately the Raptors Org. benefits possibly in future deals (and not necessarily with the same agent but via word of mouth) simply because its a decent business/mgmt. environment to work in.
Like it or not, it absolutely happens. GMs do sometimes try to help agents (and their players) – if it creates a situation where first, it’s a good deal and second, helps the agent/player. Goodwill goes a long way as agents often have 10 or 15 players they are representing. The opposite is even more true – putting players in a bad situation – how do you think negiotiations go when one of the other players under the same agent go if say they are a free agent with choices?!
You said “This is a business”. Very true – and you have to consider short term and long term relationships in any business. Basketball is not an exception.
LOL
1) Your analogy is a poor one.
2) No, it’s not called antitrust. Don’t pretend to know something by throwing around big words you obviously do not fully understand.
3) Stop being so daft and stubborn. If you don’t understand the importance of maintaining good relations, then you obviously have never worked in anything requiring the slightest modicum of tact, or very simply, you personally lack it.
Let me put it very clearly to you. Delfino had very few suitors, if even more than one. Obviously, if he could get the same X money from a team he’d prefer over Milwaukee, he would have taken that offer. Because he didn’t, you can infer that the best offer/situation to him, and the one he wanted the most, was from Milwaukee. However, Milwaukee could only offer him $2.8 mil unless BC agreed to a S&T. When BC agreed to the S&T, Delfino got want he wanted. Delfino is happy, and so is his agent.
If you could point out just where his agent did not act in his best interest, please let us know.
I know very well what it means, you should probably look it up for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law.
My point is that it was simply business. No free-agent thinks, “ohh if the contract does not work out, they have a good track record of making players happy by accommodating them.” (That’s unheard of, is that what you are trying to say?)
I hate it when people keep trying to find new ways to kiss Bryans ass. Bryan did his GM job, there was ability to salvage the Delfino contract and he did that. Lets not start making things up that he is the agents best friend.
If Bryan really is all about accommodation, why not accommodate Joey Grahm? Why Delfino? Who bolted and sulked?
I just think people should realize that this is just business. Sure agents love dealing with GM’s that will make a deal and not take things personally. That is as far as it goes…. there is too much money and stock at this level to play “I scratch your back”, “you scratch mine”.
“My point is that it was simply business. No free-agent thinks, “ohh if the contract does not work out, they have a good track record of making players happy by accommodating them.” (That’s unheard of, is that what you are trying to say?)”
I think what I said was very clear. I put each step into very short sentences for you. Rather than making up something totally different and asking if that’s what I meant, maybe you should just read what I said again.
“Lets not start making things up that he is the agents best friend.”
If you’ve noticed, I tend to quote everything of yours that I respond to. I don’t make up new things to try to argue my point. Where did I say anything about being best friends? It’s up to you if you want to believe team-agent relations are mythical things like dragons, or you could try to grow up a bit and not take such exaggerated stances.
“If Bryan really is all about accommodation, why not accommodate Joey Grahm? Why Delfino? Who bolted and sulked?”
Sigh. Did anyone say “Bryan is really all about accommodation”? No. All we’ve been saying is that Bryan does things the way a good executive does. He tries to get value when value is to be had, and he tries to maintain respect around the league the way any good exec would. It’s funny that you would ask “who bolted and sulked”, while trying to say someone else is not being professional. Seems like you’d be the unprofessional one. Also, in what way could BC accommodate Joey? Do I need to spell this one out for you, really? Until a team wants Joey for more than the minimum but doesn’t have space under any exceptions, Joey is irrelevant to this discussion.
‘there is too much money and stock at this level to play “I scratch your back”, “you scratch mine”.’
You should probably teach a class on this. Start with Sarver and BC. Maybe tell Portland they shouldn’t be so miffed that Toronto had Hedo break his verbal agreement to sign with them. Cuban could probably take a few pointers from you too, I bet.
J please stop with the personal insults. If you want my opinion I will give it to you, but I did not come here for fame or judgment of me as an individual.
I made my point about agents and favoritism, because I see it too often. So many times fans have said we overpay, now the agent owes us… it never works out that way.
If it does not work on horrible contracts where the butter is spread its not going to work on accommodations or facilitation.
The most you can hope for from an agent is the comfort of knowing that you can come to a conclusive deal.
You’re right, I should not have told you to grow up. Being frustrated with this pointless discussion does not make it right.
As well, however, this discussion truly is pointless. You ask that I not attack you personally, and I concede, but perhaps you should also stick to the discussion at hand. If you read any part of my explanation of what happened, there would be no need for discussion, but yet you continue to argue different things just for the sake of it.
I’m not saying all of your points are wrong. In fact, if you wanted to write a completely separate article about it, I’m sure some or most of it would hold true. However, you are completely wrong as to the Delfino-Bucks situation. Accept that and move on.
Remember, it is illegal of the agent to do a favour for the GM, without the clients consent. This is very black and white.
If you could, you might want to stay on topic in your responses.
“How would you like it if your divorce lawyer made a deal with the other divorce lawyer to help him out in this case and in turn he will help you out in another case? It’s called, anti-trust and it is highly liable.”
Simply giving a wikipedia link does not make your statement true; it just makes you sound like you’re a 1L trying to sound smart. If you can’t see the difference between the concept of antitrust and two divorce lawyers making an under the table deal that hurts their clients, I really can’t help you there.
Anti-trust, simply means to violate a trust. It is quite simple.
If an agent does the, he risks losing his commission and even paying damages to his client in the court system.
This is a slam dunk case, if you can get one party on record to say that a “favour” was done, one where the client had no knowledge.
There is a difference, in that an agent may be more prone to sell your club to a client, or even push a client your way because he likes to deal with certain management types. However, these should not be considered favours just closer business ties.
For instance if the client asked his agent to talk to club X before Y but the agent lies and instaead only talks to club Y, he would be liable in a court if the client had proof.
It’s funny that at first, you decide to throw a wikipedia explanation at me, but then when I ask you again, you use a different explanation, and a very simplistic one at that. Perhaps you read the link finally and realized it didn’t cover what you wanted to point out?
Here’s a few examples of antitrust violations:
The 30 NBA team owners get together and agree to a salary ceiling when dealing with free agents.
Two stores agree to raise prices and not undercut one another.
A company buys up every competitor in its market.
When two attorneys get together and make an agreement that screws over their clients, yes, that is a violation of their fiduciary duty to their clients and subject to disciplinary action. And yes, the clients can probably also submit a claim for damages in civil court. But no, this is *not* an antitrust violation. It’s simple breach of fiduciary duty, and in certain situations, breach of agency. Get it straight.
FURTHERMORE, I don’t know why we’re discussing this at *all*. There was *no* breach of fiduciary duty here. Delfino wanted to join the Bucks if they could offer more than what’s left of their MLE, his agent made it happen with BC’s help, end of story. Where the hell is your point?
Are you for real? Do you seriously want case law for me to counter what you just wrote.
Nothing wrong with simplicity on blog such as this.
Have a good day, J. Relax a little.
So how can future client feel obligated to return a favour for something that did not concern him? Do you now understand my point?
And also, please read my response to one of your other posts on how you’re wrong that BC’s so-called favor does not affect Delfino.
If the client is the player – not directly, you are right.
But the “client” is also the agent who gives his advice to a player. If he dislikes certain GMs more than others – that will influence his advice.
Agree.
There is an advantage to being the prefered manager. For instance you can be granted the first audiance, which can be used to mark your territory and disuade others.
Valid point.
(I just think that most of the, agent owes us talk by fans is rubbish… it still takes a GM to make a valid offer.)
btw, if after a high level negotiation, the other party is calling you a “good guy”, chances are you got taken to the cleaners.
The idea is to be smack down in the middle. Save the compliments for the drunk christmas party.
TRizzo,
This is a service business – as you point out – like any other. Price, atmosphere, city, fans, GM, service all come into play.
And it does include having good relationships with both agents and players.
** Agents have influence on the players’ perceptions about the direction of the franchise, how it supports players, etc. **
Notice how Bryan handled the JO situation – he never threw the guy under the bus despite his poor performance and worked hard to get the best situation for the Raptors as well as the player. See JO’s comments on Bryan post the deal. And it was a great deal for the Raptors.
Also see how he handled the Roko situation – at the JJ press conference he laid the groundwork by saying he would look to help him find a situation where he may be able to play. Was a lot of it setting up a perception for the sake of his agent and player? Sure. Much like the JO trade, he found a way to make the best trade for the Raptors but ensured all parties were communicated throughout the process – creating a positive situation for all involved.
This respect he has earned will continue to help in us signing free agents and with trades.
Many trades do NOT happen as the agents speak with the GM and say how problematic it may be for his client (family, personal issues, etc). Of course, a GM could ignore the warnings a pull the trigger, but you may end up with guys mailing it in until their contract year. Happens.
All the say that working hard to create a positive exit for your players helps in the long term. Just like taking care of customers and employees. Perhaps much of it is creating the perception, but it’s all part of how relationships work.
well stated Tom.. that was the intent of my original post… Cheers
i like weems.
Im not too sure if Weem’s is who he says he is. Either he has stolen one of the Grahame twin’s identity or Mrs Grahame had triplets and lost one on the way home from the hospital…freaky!
wow, weems ft % is 0.375
Umm he probably shot three free throws all season and missed two or something.
.375 because he shot 3 of 8 attempts. Poor but also a pretty small sample.
From the small amount of reading I’ve done, it seems as if Weems is a shooter with a very limited range and the foul line seems to be at the edge of that range.
We’ve got enough shooters anyway
He’s not a shooter. I don’t know where that information came from. He shot 48% from the floor in the D League last year and 25% from 3. Not exactly typical percentages for a “shooter”. Not to mention only about 5-6% of his FGAs came from 3 point land.
And he shot 70% from the line in the D League and 80% from the line in college.
Hey RapsFan,
Don’t get it twisted. A bunch of those 189 comments were FAQ hating on everything from Amir Johnson to Jay Triano’s tie selection and us trying to figure out why he was still posting.
Agreed. Quality over quantity rules in my book. (sort of like this comment I am making now) :)
LOL i know, but even if 80 of those were comments about a 2nd tier player coming to toronto, that’s amazing, lol
What other team’s fan base gets this excited over their, say, 12th man. Love it.
regardless of what people were saying on the post, they signed in and commented, which means this site it awesome!!
We are just shocked that there was still another deal that BCo can pull off and we didn’t even think Delfino would be a sniff-close involved in the deal.
+1
I think that this spells the end of Patrick O in a raps uniform. The only way i see us holding on to him is for his 6 fouls he can give to Shaq and D12.
I want to see Pops back on the team just for his energy. the guy gives it all and if you can get 5-10 minutes out of him a game doing that then “welcome back.”
as far as AMir Johnson goes, I like the guy! He could fit in nice with the raps and it makes them more athletic. Doppleganger Weems can take Roko’s spot on the bench.
so long Carlos and Roko
GIVE POPS A REST ALREADY
“I second that emotion”
what do you mean “give Pops a rest already?” I was praising the guy, saying that i want him back in a uniform this season.
He’s saying to stop talking about him, because he’s been beaten to death (figuratively, of course). He’s a 13th man that people seem way too attached to.
No offense if you’re new, but it’s really been confusing to see the passion some people have for the guy. It hasn’t stopped all summer.
Regardless, I think this is the roster. No need to limit future flexibility with additional salaries. Everybody’s guaranteed now, adding more salary limits future deadline trades and 10-day signings.
This whole POB business was probably Colangelo’s worst move of this marvelous summer. (Its good when the worst move involves the 15th man on the roster)
Wasn’t his contract ‘not guaranteed’? I guess BC figured he needed a Persian Flaw.
LOL @ persian flaw
ROTD
Patrick O’Bryant is a fringe NBA player and the only reason he’s in the league is “potential”. But, as this trade displayed, one must understand that not everyone on the team can demand playing time, and therefore most GM’s would rather have POB/Voskuhl/etc as their 6th big than have a big time talent with a big ego coming off the bench (see IVERSON, ALLEN). If we traded/waived POB we would essentially be replacing him with more of the same, so we might as well stick with him and his advertised “potential”.
Agreed.
Its really not a big point, but almost any player in the NBA making around POB money or less doesn’t have any say in demanding playing time. My point is that he shouldn’t have been reup’d/guaranteed in the first place.
“If we could have got Johnson for Delfino/Ukic, we could have gotten a lower tier SF who is a stopper on the perimeter, that’s all I’m saying.”
That’s just not necessarily true. Maybe I’ve missed something, but which lower tier SFs who are stoppers on the perimeter are on the block? Furthermore, why would a team trade a lower tier SF who is a stopper on the perimeter for Carlos Delfino, a lower tier SG/SF who is not a stopper on the perimeter?
The Bucks have a few good young big men up front, and no backup for Michael Redd besides Meeks, who was a 2nd round pick this year. That’s why the trade was available, because they traded out of a position of strength to address a position of weakness.
The Bucks have no use for Amir, but have use for Carlos Delfino, because they play distinctly different roles. If a team had no use for their backup SF, what use would they have for Delfino?
The only way I could see another team trading us back a perimeter player for Delfino is if the player in question was notably worse than Delfino, and BC wanted to do it anyway because the other guy fits into our cap structure better.
In this case, we’ve got a guy with a chance to be better than Delfino that also fits into our cap structure better. And keep this in mind about Johnson. He’s 22, aka the age of a recently graduated college senior. If a kid with Johnson’s physical tools was in the draft this year he’d be a lottery pick. Now, of course he’s been inconsistent in limited minutes, but for physically talented kids that come out of high school, the development process is often slow. And who knows, maybe a change of scenery will be good for him. Jermaine O Neal is a prime example of what a change in team and playing style can do for a talented young player.
Phenomenal move by BC in my opinion. It’s really difficult for me to come up with a realistic way that he could have played the Delfino/Ukic situation any better.
“Maybe I’ve missed something, but which lower tier SFs who are stoppers on the perimeter are on the block?”
Ime Udoka is one.
I’ll be first to admit he’ll more like join a contender or a place he’s comfortable (Portland, who’s both), but he will likely sign for the Vet’s Minimum.
I *believe* Weems is only guaranteed $175,000 or so – thus, you would *potentially* waive him and sign a player like Udoka.
Ah, yes…I overlooked him.
However, given that he’s a free agent, the trade doesn’t really hurt our ability to sign him. As you said, by waiving Weems or whoever we could create that space.
I was more responding to Raps Fan’s idea that he would rather have traded Delfino/Ukic for a SF.
I am totally on the Udoka bandwagon, hah. Also, I wouldn’t mind Joey coming back, though I honestly haven’t seen enough of Weems to know how he compares to Joey.
Our fanbase has trouble letting go of its players. When was there ever an indication that BC was going to bring Joey back?
Apologizes
As of Aug 10th, he is fully guaranteed.
Well, if the team was missing a back up PG and really wanted Ukic, Delfino could’ve just been a throw in for the their back up SF. So like a SF equal to Delfino. And the main player they wanted was really Ukic.
Maybe a S&T with Delfino/Ukic isn’t the right way to go about getting my wing, but there is a willingness to make moves, and there are some parts that could be parlayed into said player.
The point more so was, IMHO, I feel this team needed a backup SF who can lockdown defend more then a backup big.
I agree with your statement that it being difficult to come up with a realistic way that he could have dealt with the Delfino/Ukic situation.
Well we’re on the same page then. A backup 3 would be nice, but considering Johnson was available, I’m glad BC pulled the trigger.
At this point, I think we’ve got to hope that Derozan and Belinelli can play well enough to warrant legitimate minutes. If they do, we can turn the 2 spot over to those guys and have Wright backing up the 3.
As it stands right now, Antoine Wright is probably going to be playing a lot of minutes at both the 2 and 3. Even if DeRozan impresses enough to start, Wright will probably be the primary backup at both spots.
A bird in hand is much better than two in the bush. Amir will be a very nice piece, and better than the illusory affordable stopper at the 3 that would have been traded for Delfino by an equally illusory team. =)
Agreed.
Too much what iffing when it comes to trades. Armchair GMing free agency decisions I can understand, because it’s a lot more clear cut. Players X, Y, and Z are available and their expected salary level is generally known. As such, it’s a little easier for us to say “BC should have signed player X instead of player Y, because I think he is a better player and they are commanding a similar salary.”
However, to get into armchair GMing trades involving the 10th (or so) men on each roster is ridiculous. Saying that you like or don’t like the trade is fine. But to say “we could’ve gotten better value” or “I think we should have traded for [insert player here] or [insert position here]” is generally ridiculous, because we have NO idea what is realistically available.
A good trade that actually happens is much better than a great trade cooked up in the mind of a fan/blogger/commenter. We’ve got to trust the fact that BC is exploring all of the options and making the best value moves.
Well, I wouldn’t go as far as trusting that every move is a best value move =), but if there’s a better move than this one, I really would like someone to show me. Not that long ago, Amir was untouchable on the Pistons. His biggest problem is his foul rate, but it’s not like we need him to stay on the floor for 30 minutes. If he can supply 15 minutes of his typical, highly efficient play (check his PER), he could actually usurp Evans’ role as main backup to Bosh.
Sonny Weems can dunk? Dayum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIp40WgQXi0
Antoine Wright can get up too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGjFVCR9Un4
Man, now we’ve got DeMar DeRozan, Amir Johnson, Antoine Wright AND Sonny Weems. We should have an inner-team dunk contest or something!
I am mixed on is trade…
PROS
- Johnson gives the Raps depth at PF/C, with much more potential for long-term improvement than Mensah-Bonsu
- greater salary cap flexibility next summer
- trading a 3rd string PG and a guy playing in Europe for a good young player who could easily become the Raps’ 2nd string PF is always a good move
- if BC gets a true backup SF, then I will be 100% happy about this trade, but right now I am a little concerned about the Raps’ SF depth
- BC now has more trade options open to him (ie: Johnson’s expiring contract or Evans’ contract that expires after next season, if Johnson proves himself this season)
CONS
- if the Raps could have had Delfino or $4M or less, I would have preferred to keep him… SF:Turk/DeRozn & SG:Wright/Delfino & 11th Man: Belinelli seems much stronger and deeper to me than SF:Turk/DeRozan & SG:Wright/Belinelli & 11th Man: Douby
- I don’t see how there will be enough playing time available to be distributed between Nesterovic/Johnson/Evans to make them all as effective as they could be
- Weems is useless, basically Douby-lite… the Raps don’t need both of them
WHAT’S NEXT?
- Banks, O’Bryant and Weems are useless and likely won’t see a single second… if BC could get anything useful for them, then he truly is on another level (I’d trade Douby and his expiring contract as well, if it means getting something useful – even a 2nd round draft pick – while simultaneous clearing out some of this other deadweight)
- I would still like to see BC get a legit backup SF, pushing DeRozan into the backup SG slot and Belinelli into the 11th man slot
- I still see Mensah-Bonsu being added for league minimum, to replace O’Bryant as the Raps’ 5th big
CONCLUSION
–> GOOD TRADE! The Raps trade 2 3rd stringers (or worse) for a backup PF who is good, young and full of potential, while increasing financial flexibility for next year’s offseason. While the trade doesn’t address the need for a true backup SF, it doesn’t negatively effect the Raps’ 10-man rotation either (or even their 12-man rotation). GOOD JOB BC!
Oh mi god I love PMB…he is this team’s saviour, can we please bring him back…MY GOD PEOPLE….GET OVER THE LEGEND….HE WASNT THAT GOOD…why would we buy out POB in order to pay more money to the (at best) 5th BIG????
“I still see Mensah-Bonsu being added for league minimum, to replace O’Bryant as the Raps’ 5th big”
That would be the Raps’ 6th big.
Didn’t Dallas’ coach state that Wright was equally capable of guarding the 2 or the 3? So why the fixation with acquiring a true backup SF.
Also, if O’Bryant and Weems are useless and likely won’t see a single second, why replace them with another player that also won’t see a single second. At least those two would be willing to go to the D-League to continue their development.
I seriously think people are harping on the backup SF issue too much. It’s not so big of a hole and if there’s one position you HAD to be weak in depth, SF would be it.
A la Iverson “Backup??? We’re talking about BACKUP????”… just my opinion.
I seriously think people are harping on the backup SF issue too much. It’s not so big of a hole and if there’s one position you HAD to be weak in depth, SF would be it.
A la Iverson “Backup??? We’re talking about BACKUP????”… just my opinion.
You mean to replace POB as the team’s sixth big right? By my count, we have Bosh, Bargnani, Evans, Nesterovic, Johnson as the first five.
Just one of these times, I’d like for you to post the three players you’d want to have on the *inactive list*. I really don’t understand all the fuss about dealing players off our inactive list for useful parts who will apparently be equally happy to be on our inactive list, or waiving and eating the salaries of the people on our inactive list just to spend into the luxury tax and get new bodies on our inactive list.
What I predict after training camp and exhibition games: Waive O’Bryant and we give Sonny Weems a try; a 2nd rounder that is earning much less than POB would give him motivation to bust his ass on the court. If I was Weems and see how crappy O’Bryant is in practice and knows he gets paid more, I would be pissed and start to outwork the other 3 guys for real PT.
Banks might blow chunks in all levels, but his expiring contract will be very important for next 2010-2011 season because a team that is saving money or stupidly saving money will accept cap space and will make a bad trade to acquire Banks’ expiring money.
People seem to forget that it MIGHT come in handy to have a 3rd string PG (Douby is not that). I liked Roko in that position but now we should hold on to Banks just in case Jack or Calderon goes down with an injury.
I’m not saying I like Banks. In fact I think he’s pretty much useless, but he might come in handy for about 30 minutes total this season.
BC needs to take the rest of the summer off.
I watched three Raps games in person at Vegas and came away thinking that O’Bryant is not an NBA player and that Ukic is borderline. Ukic may end up being a player, but Douby was much more impressive offensively and more effective on the defensive end. The combined trio of Calderon, Jack and Douby is solid across the board with not much drop-off among them and I expect they will rank in the upper-tier in the division.
I sat across from Bryan Colangelo and was amused to see that he was on the phone non-stop (except when he had to change the battery on his phone). While other GMs were absent, he was in the thick of things and doing deals (or he has a demanding wife….). Based on what I saw, he has made some very shrewd moves.
DeRozan has star potential, but I am concerned that he will not be able to contribute consistently in his first season. He will have his games, but his shot is mediocre and his handles are not smooth, especially under pressure in the paint. He has some impressive hops, but not in VC territory – he wasn’t even the most outstanding on his team. That honour goes to Brent Petway….
What ever happened to Carl English? He was listed on the roster, but was a no-show. Not that he would have made the team, but it would have been nice to see him match up.
I can finish this post without mentioning the most over-rated player in Vegas. The award goes to Omri Casspi, who I predict will play in the D-league most of this year and be back in Israel by next. He was terrible!
Why am I still the only guy that shakes his head when he sees this trade? If you guy have read my previous posts about BC, you would know that I loved every single trade he has made so far, but this is not the case this time…
First of all, I don’t see this trade making sense for either team. We really do not need Amir Johnson. I mean the guy is earning 3.7 million for PT that at most is 15 MPG. If it is about “seeing potential in the guy”, we could see get a much better deal, for his pretty bad contract. So let me get this straight, we are dealing a pretty good contract of Delfino at 3mil/year, for Amir’s bad contract and you guys are happy about it? I mean if the Raps do not get cash in return I will be like “wtf? BC made this trade?”
And as for Roko, you are telling me that Roko for Weems straight up makes you happy? I am pretty sure we can get a much better value for Roko, than a negative factor in return who is Weems.
First looking at this trade, I thought the reason the Raps would make this trade is only for Salary relief. But then I read an article which made a lot of sense.
We weren’t going to acquire Delfino anyways, so the only thing we were going to do was to trade Ukic for salary relief. So by making this trade, we got back 4.5 million back in return for shedding 1.6 million salary in 2010…
I don’t know but I am pretty sure we are on the losing side on this trade, IF we do not get any cash back. I mean come on why are you guys sooooo happy about this trade? We basically traded Roko for get 4.5 million back for this year, where we get a guy who is stuck on the bench (Weems), and another guy who will at the very most play 15 min a game (Johnson). If Amir was needed, then I would say okayyy, we needed a back up, but we don’t really need him… If we have injuries, at the very worst case scenario, POB will play 10 mins a game…
The contract is excellent – it expires in one year. That’s the whole point.
Would you really want Delfino’s contract for 2 or 3 years when the cap is coming down? It would be crippling. Plus we are overloaded at the 2 already.
Delfino was a trade asset – but note that GMs knew we would not sign him for ourselves. Thus we were unlikely to get “fair value” for him. We are in need of another big that can rebound and defend – and certainly Amir hasn’t proved it yet. But since we would only getting a deep bench type player in return, it’s an easy move – if he works out great. If not, his expiring contract will be valuable mid-way through the year.
Roko was the 3rd or 4th guard. He was NOT traded straight up for Weems. It was necessary for both to be included to make the deal work. Mil wanted insurance at PG. Weems was moved to open the roster spot. We will have him sit at the end of the bench or waive him as he has $175,000 guaranteed. With Calderon, Jack and Douby, Ukic would see little time on the floor.
We turned a deep bench player and “our rights” to Delfino (who wouldn’t have played) to basically Johnson, who *may* fit a bigger need (PF/C vs. PG depth). More importantly, we inherited expiring deals rather than take on a multi year deal. A good deal for both teams.
Rapman, I totally disagree with you on this one. Tom L pretty much nailed down the points of my rebuttal.
Ukic deserves more PT that he wasn’t gonna see here.
Delfino would have created cap issues and possibly team issues (if his pt decreased due to Demar and Marco realizing some of their upside)
Johnson has upside and negates the ‘need’ for POB.
I think those three main points alone justify this trade.
Dude honestly did you even read what I wrote? or you just assumed my whole comment based on one paragraph…
I said WE WERE NOT going to sign Delfino anyways, and you are assuming that I said I wanted Delfino…. And are you telling me Delfino for 2 years at 3 million is a worst contract than Amir for 3.7 million for one year? It is about contract value. It is not like we are stuck with Delfino… he is not under our signings. It is not like we have to take on Amir’s bad contract for moving Delfino.
And I also said, Ukic is not needed on our team, I didn’t say we need him. I just said we can get a much better value for him than Weems + Amir’s bad contact…
If it is about moving roko, move roko for a expiring contract at around 1-1.5 million. If it is about wanting Amir, trade Delfino to get Amir Johnson + cash. It is not like we are in a dire need of Amir. It is more about them wanting Delfino than us wanting Amir. So this trade does not make sense to me. And trust it won’t make sense to many expert analysts. Every article I read about this trade for known analysts, they were hesitant to say anything good about it (including Eric Smith), they are waiting to see the final trade…
All I am saying, if we do not get cash back at around 1-2 million, we are on the losing side, because we are getting 2 really bad contracts for one good contract (Delfino) and one decent-bad contract (Roko).
So if we weren’t going to sign Delfino anyway, what’s wrong with turning him and a 3rd string guard into an expiring contract?
Not to mention that Johnson has the potential to be a nice player, especially in the Raptors system (as opposed to Detroit where they slow the game down about as much as possible)
Expiring contracts are good. Players with potential are good. We turned a guy who we weren’t going to sign anyway into both. What’s bad about that?
I don’t even really understand what you’re suggesting here. You don’t want to sign Delfino, but you also don’t want to trade him for a 22 year old athletic freak with an expiring contract? Who did you want to trade him for?
Amir’s contract value this year is pretty much irrelevant anyway as long as it doesn’t push us over the tax (which it doesn’t) We’re right up against the cap, so we couldn’t sign anyone for anything more than the league minimum anyway. There is no such thing as a bad expiring contract at this point. It doesn’t limit our flexibility this year because we already had none, and it frees up space next summer.
Well said TM. Rapman, I hear what you’re saying but I still disagree. I think once you see Johnson in action you’ll feel a lot better about this transaction.
Disregard the part about not understanding your suggestion. Didn’t read your post further down before commenting.
Are you guys forgetting about A YOUNG STUD being in his contract year?
I think there is a lot of upside here.
I did read it. You sad, among other things, “you are telling me that Roko for Weems straight up makes you happy?” I just thought that wasn’t a completely accurate assessment – maybe I’m wrong.
In your other point you wrote: “I just said we can get a much better value for him than Weems + Amir’s bad contact”
So what happened then – did Colangelo forget to call a bunch of GMs? Or perhaps he called a few GMs that had better offers, but felt sorry for MIL? Whether or not you think he’s a great GM or not is up for debate, but I would be shocked if he could get A) much more for Roko in a straight up situation or B) turned down a better offer.
What trade was out there for Roko’s expiring 2 year deal? Do you think a GM wanted to give up a nice SF for Roko? Not so much. I say it was unlikely.
We had a surplus of PG and could use a 3rd string SF or PF. This solves 2 of the three issues and does NOT burden us with a 2 year + contract.
What’s not to like? You may not love it – I don’t – but its an incremental improvement (my view).
And yes MIL thinks it will improve their team as well (and it likely does) – why else would they make the trade and take on additional salary for more years?
All I want to know is how you can be so upset over an expiring contract that will cost about the same as the first year of Delfino’s three-year contract (third year being an option). How is Amir’s suddenly a bad contract, and Delfino’s suddenly a good one? Not to mention, when did you become Delfino’s best buddy and when did he confide in you that he wanted to take the same deal with the Raptors and play 10-15 minutes backing up whomever?
Ignore the last part of that post (just read your clarification posts) and amend with:
If you honestly think we could have turned Ukic into anything better than a promising young big at very, VERY minimal risk, then maybe you should contact MLSE and ask for BC’s job. You’re treating Amir like he’s trash, and perhaps he is, but there’s no risk in this deal at all.
To address your point about Amir’s salary being bad:
If Ukic was traded on his own, he would fetch back another player of similar salary. That extra money would not be spent on anything aside from minimum salary players. If Amir was a free agent, I bet you that he would receive more than the minimum. Even if he is being overpaid, so what? It’s only for this year. Since when did Raptors fans start caring about how much money MLSE saves?
I really hope that we can buyout a guy on this team (ideally Weems), so we can bring back Joey at 1 year vets minimum, then we are truly one of the deepest teams in the NBA. I mean look at this.
3 ball handelers: Jose, Jack, Douby (maybe Belleneli and Hedo)
3 good SGs: DD, Belleneli, Wright (maybe Jack and Douby, heh Weems)
3 Sfs: Hedo, Joey, Wright (maybe DD and Belleneli, heh Weems)
4 Pfs: Bosh, Evens, Amir, Joey (heh POB)
3 Cs: Bargs, Rasho, Amir (maybe Evens, heh POB)
I’m warming up to this idea – we need insurance at the 3. I didn’t like it 2 days ago – before we added Amir, but it may make more sense now.
He’s a solid shooter (54% TS%), rebounder and yes sometimes makes poor decisions. But an okay defender. It may help to add a little more continuity (since what 3 guys are returning from last year’s starters?), knows his role and likely a solid team guy. I think Ime Udoka better (as the world knows), but it may be a long shot. Before we get flamed, remember this is for a DEEP bench / insurance role – that we could only play the Vet’s Min for.
the biggest surprise to me was that BC is actually givig up 2 euros for 2 althletic americans. Finally! euro players are good and all but a team of euros aint winning a title. we have a good mix of both now and i cant wait to see how it plays out
The Spurs seemed to do pretty good with an international cast as their core, no?
Duncan: USVI
Parker: Fra
Ginobili: Arg
Oberto: Arg
I don’t buy the the arguement that a core of international players wont win a championship. Especially since its already been done.
Duncan is not an international player. He was born in the the virgin islands, but went to school at wakeforest. He cut his teeth in an american system. That and oberto isn’t there anymore.
I made sure to put Duncan on the list for exactly that reason. I bet most people consider Kleiza to be a “Euro” even though he went to the same High School as Kevin Durant and played college ball at Missouri
As for Oberto, I was referencing the 06/07 Spurs team that won the title
Furthermore, for three years straight the NBA MVPs were international players. (Nash, Nash, Nowitzki)
The point is that this is an old bias, especially in Toronto where it has carried over from Hockey, that has absolutely no relevance anymore.
I agree that it is an old and outdated bias, but people consider Kleiza to be a Euro because he plays like one. Duncan does not play like a Euro.
Forgive the gross oversimplification, but I would say:
Euro = Outside -> In
American = Inside -> Out
Just theorizin’, but I think this might have something to do with having a shorter 3 point line in the international game (yeah, I know college is shorter too).
33.3% more points per basket is a pretty good incentive to go for the long ball, and anyone who has played basketball knows that a foot in or out makes all the difference from long range.
Euros know how to shoot because it benefits them more.
Which is sad because then we’d be calling players like Tim Thomas and perhaps Jamario Moon European too. Wouldn’t it be easier to just classify them as shooters/slashers/etc.?
And I’m not sure I’d agree that Kleiza plays like a Euro. The guy actually likes physical play.
I never said anything about physical play. It is possible to be an inside player who shys away from contact. I’m just saying Kleiza’s first gut reaction is to shoot if he’s open. An American player would probably drive as a first gut reaction.
Again, I’m not saying everyone is like this. Kleiza is certainly more physical than some European players. Probably a result of him playing college ball.
Agreed 100%.
As of today, this is a stale perception, and the NBA is a lot more globalized than a decade ago.
It is not so easy to define a continental trademark as it was before, with young Euro players going to college in the US, and young American players skipping college and going to EU to gain experience(the latter being relatively new, crf. B. Jennings), and with a lot more exchanges overall between the two major Leagues. There are still differences that come from tactics, adaptation to different game rules, and of course different sports culture, but absolutely not as it was before. Or somebody is going to pinpoint the European vocational training of guys like Tony Parker or Dirk Nowitzki or Ginobili?
Instead, there might be another bias right now, as AltRaps underlined, which is more of a hype concerning high expectations that many place in European players, often too superficially…
Also see the discussion in the ‘Developing: Who wants Carlos Delfino?’ post too (http://raptorsrepublic.com/2009/08/17/developing-who-wants-carlos-delfino/#comment-37014)
It’s only a surprise because you had the faulty conclusion that BC was adding Europeans for the sake of adding Europeans. It’s been clear to many that BC cares about adding value (see Evans, Jack, etc.) wherever it may be found, and not simply ethnic ties.
next season will be even better when we flush chris and sign d-wade.
Isn’t it a little early to be intoxicated…
y would wade come if we got rid of bosh? i think the point would to play WITH cb4.
I think Chris fits this team better than Wade does.
Rapman, I think you’re failing to see what everyone else is saying.
We do not really need Amir Johnson? Well then we also don’t really need Carlos Delfino. In my opinion we definately do need Amir.
Let’s look at our frontcourt before the trade: Andrea/CB4/Rasho/Evans/POB. Now what happens when one of the main 4 in the rotation get injured? Or worse, two get injured? We’re in a pretty bad spot. At least in the back court we have so much depth that if someone was to go down with injury, we can still make up for it. Grabbing a frontcourt rotation player makes sense.
Now the question will be whether or not you believe Amir was the right choice. Contract wise, yes the guy makes too much money for 15 mpg. But then, so does Evans. What you want to look at is that his contract expires after this season. This means that when the salary cap shrinks (as expected) next season we have about 3.6 million clearing alongside it. This is a better contract than Delfino’s, which would span 2-3 years and eat into the shrinking salary cap next season.
The only thing we’re really “losing” in this trade is Roko. Delfino would not have signed with us because he wouldn’t have as big a role as he wanted to. In terms of losing Roko, I’m sad that we don’t get to see him develop. But given reports stating that Roko asked to be traded if he wasn’t going to be played, then this was about appeasing a player.
Amir as a player may not work out, or it may work out great. I don’t know, and really no one else does either. But in terms of adding depth at the right positions, and maintaining financial flexibility in the future, this was most certainly the right move.
Sigh…. When did I ever say we need Delfino in my above comment…
Does this trade make us better? maybe yes. But could we have gotten better value, absolutely. So you are telling spending 4.5 million on a 5th big man is a good move?
Honestly which one would be better:
Ship Roko out for an expiring contract at around 1-1.5 million + cash(around .5-1 million). Now we still have 14 players on our roster. We go out and get a better big man than Johnson at vets minimum. Maybe buy someone out, and get a back up Sf at vets minumum. Since we have 5 million before hitting tax, after this, we will have
5 – 1.3 – 1.3 = 2.4 million space.
Now after this trade: we get a shitty player Weems who fills out roster at around .7 million. We get an overpaid Johnson at 3.7, not to mention losing our rights to Delfino…
So 5 + 1.6 (roko going) – .7 -3.7 = 2.2 million in space…
You decide. Seriously you guys are too dreamy, please start reading some articles or at least listen to fan 590, instead of reading comments in Raptors dreamland here. WHERE IS ARSENALIST? I MISS HIS SOMEWHAT PESSIMISTIC (logical) POSTS…
RAPMAN, you have a point about value, but you’re neglecting the impending salary cap reduction.
The Raps have room under the luxury tax this year to overspend on some players (Amir). If the cap comes down next year as it is predicted to, then we won’t have room to overspend on a 3rd string PG (Ukic).
So the trade was more about gaining finanical flexibility next year: two expiring contracts for two longer term contracts.
And what big man are we going to sign for the minimum??? I’m sure BC looked in to it and was in touch with all the agents. Any quality backup bigman is going to sign with one of the ‘big contenders’ (Magic, Cavs, Celts, Lakers), not the Raps.
How do you know Weems is a shitty player? His stats in the D-League were good last year (22 games; 28.3 mins; 20.5 pts; 4.5 rbs; 3.0 asts). How many games did you see him play to make such a blanket statement aabout a developing player. Maybe that’s why nobody reads through your posts.
So you’d replace a 22 year old athletic freak whos potential has yet to be fully realized with two veteran minimum players (who, despite your claims, would likely not be as good as Amir) in order to save 0.2 million? What is that going to do for us?
Not to mention your plan involves the assumption that with the cap set to go down, some GM out there would give up an expiring contract and cash for a 3rd string point guard who has in no way shown that he can be a significant contributor at the NBA level.
It’s not as simple as saying we spent $4.5 on a scrub big.
When you’re moving players and their values around, its more complex than A+B=C …
BC moved a PG that simply wasn’t going to get minutes, and a guy who wasn’t even on the roster for a guy that will play some solid minutes for the team (and a guy who can entertain the team @ practice with some dunks).
As the summer moved along it became more and more apparent that Delfino wouldn’t fit in the Raptors plans so why not use his rights to get a piece that can help out the squad this season?
We can’t really do anything with the $2.2M this season because as of this moment, our roster spots are filled. If a trade or waiver was to happen, that would change the cash numbers anyway.
Even if the players don’t work out this season, the cap relief for next summer still makes sense.
The kid has lots of potential. He will now need to prove his worth to the league, this is his contract year. His entire career rests on what he will do as a Raptor.
I see a lot of upside for us.
1) What GM would give up a decent bench player with an expiring contract for a 2 year Ukic contract?
2) Weems is irrelevant. We can waive him. We didn’t trade FOR him, it was a necessary part of the package.
3) Does not matter that Johnson is overpaid. A) because we are still not paying the lux tax and B) it can he quite valuable as an expiring contract (this year – as opposed to Roko’s next year – even if it’s smaller)
It’s not about dreaming. It’s about cap space, flexibility, needs and oversupply.
It’s actually quite a coup that not only did we acquire a useful piece on an _expiring_ contract, but that even the trade ballast we had to take back to make the financial part work is effectively an expiring contract as well. With all the moaning, you’d think we got back an untalented big on a long, bloated contract and a useless part on a similarly burdensome contract.
I dare you to name me a big man out there that will sign for the vet’s minimum that can equal Amir’s combination of production/potential/fit. Remember that Philly already signed Primoz, so it’s not like there’s a lot of talent out there. Maybe you’d prefer to bring back Voskhul?
Delfino wasn’t going to come back, Roko wasn’t going to play. Something for nothing my friend.
Great point – if Philly went through the “big man” list and only came up with Da Gangsta then how bad are the players they didn’t pick?!
Know what I find funny: Primoz has already been picked up and the “fantastic” Pops Mensah Bonsu is still available.
It must be the high socks…
Well, vets minumum for pf/c we can get pops, a little less talented version of Amir
vets minimum for Sf/pf in the worst case scenario we can get Joey graham…
So, you’re suggesting we forego the opportunity to add a nice young player in Amir Johnson in order to save half a million dollars and keep two guys who were part of last years debacle?
Thanks, but no thanks. I’d spend the $0.5 million that isn’t going to do us any good anyway and pick up a player who has the potential to actually contribute.
See that is my problem with some of people’s posts here…
” The grass is greaner on the other side of the fence”. Just because these players come from a trade, you would think they are better than our own scrub players. IF Amir Johnson was a free agent this year, the most he would get would be vets mimimum or maybe biannual expection.
Some other person also commented “how do you know Weems is a shitty player? Have you ever seen him play?” well, when a player at the age of 23 only plays 12 games in a 82 game season, averaging around 4.5 mpg, then he is a “shity” player…. That means he was below a garbage time player to have that kind of numbers… Maybe there is a reason I never watched him play, that is because HE HASN’T PLAYED ANY NBA GAMES!
My point is, you guys think just because Amir is coming from another team, he is 10 times better than Joey and Pops…
Don’t put words into other people’s mouths.
Honestly, I don’t care about Weems, and neither should anyone who understands that a team can only have 12 active players.
As for being 10 times better, that’s a bit of an exaggeration. He’s maybe twice as good as Pops (and I’m not sure how to make a comparison between a 3 and a 4/5). Only thing Pops was good for was rebounding and energy. Well, Amir is also a great rebounder, and he can actually defend as well (unlike Pops). Oh, and his FG% is almost as high as Pops’ FG% for dunks alone. I don’t think you can really dispute any of this.
I think Amir Johnson is better than our scrub players because he is, not because he comes from another team. Don’t pretend to know my thought process and my rationale, and don’t tell me what I’m thinking or why I’m thinking it. Pops and Joey are free agents for a reason. Because nobody wants them, except you apparently.
“when a player at the age of 23 only plays 12 games in a 82 game season, averaging around 4.5 mpg, then he is a “shity” player”
You want to bring Pops back right? That’s the guy you want rather than what we got from this trade?
Pops Mensah Bonsu Rookie Year Stats:
Age: 23
Games Played: 12
Minutes Per Game: 5.92
So you want to not do this trade in order to bring back Pops, who, by a definition you just made very clear, is a “shitty player”, just like Weems? You want to forego adding Amir so that we can bring Pops back, and Pops had almost exactly the same numbers as the throw in player who you have deemed shitty. I guess I’m not listening to enough Fan 590 to understand how that makes ANY sense whatsoever.
RapMan, what are we dreaming about? We are simply saying this is a solid trade. You say you can get more value for Carlos Delfino… well I certainly don’t see it. And I trust BC more than a Raptors fan, so I’m pretty sure he would have gauged the value for Carlos Delfino before biting on the first trade that came up. Delfino is a Buck more than likely because Hammond is their GM. I don’t think many other GMs see that much value in him, but that’s my opinion. Same thing goes for Ukic.
There are cases where GMs make horrible trades and people just *know* they could’ve gotten better value. This is not one of those trades. Unless you can provide solid evidence that there was a better deal out there for Delfino/Ukic, then try to see this trade for what it is: a good one.
I just proposed one in the above comment. And for “guys” saying that no team would take Ukic’s contract + cash that would almost pay his second year for an expiring contract around 1-1.5, could you please tell me why that is? So are you telling me Gms around the league see Ukic as a negative factor? Their first year contracts cancels out, and we are almost paying for his second year to be on their team… why wouldn’t you take that?
I misunderstood and thought you meant the cash would be coming this way.
But regardless of whether or not we would be paying his contract, I think most GMs would rather have an expiring contract than a 3rd string pg. Heading into this summer, with a great FA class and a decreasing cap number, most teams want all the flexibility they can get. No one is going to trade an expiring contract for a longer one unless that guy is going to make a significant impact on the floor, especially this year. Ukic isn’t going to do enough for a team to warrant giving up an expiring deal for.
“his second year for an expiring contract around 1-1.5, could you please tell me why that is?”
Because the cap is coming down next year and you’re stuck with paying a 3rd stringer instead of having the flexibility.
I take offense at your last statement. If you’ve noticed, I pretty much object to everything most everyone else says on here, showing them why they’re deluded if they think we can get so and so, or why they’re deluded about a player’s value.
Well, now I have to do the same to you.
“We go out and get a better big man than Johnson at vets minimum.”
Please give me one example of a better big man who is still available and would take a min contract.
“We get an overpaid Johnson at 3.7, not to mention losing our rights to Delfino…”
What “rights” would you be talking about? The only place “rights” comes up is Delfino’s Bird rights. Note that they are *his*, not ours. If we don’t sign him, it means nothing to us. Since you’re adamant that you don’t actually want to sign him, then your only argument is that we could perhaps have done a S&T for a different player off a different team.
Please give even one example that fulfills the following: 1) a team that is willing to sign Delfino for the 3+ mil per year deal Delfino wants; 2) the same team does not have enough room under the MLE or is under the cap by at least the amount that Delfino wants; 3) Delfino would be willing to play for the team in question; and 4) the so-called better value that the team receiving Delfino would be willing to give up.
“5 – 1.3 – 1.3 = 2.4 million space.”
“So 5 + 1.6 (roko going) – .7 -3.7 = 2.2 million in space…”
(Correction: Roko only makes about 1.35 so I’ll help you out a bit and fix your figures a bit… the 2nd value comes out to about 1.9 mil in space. There are some errors elsewhere, but I’m not going to go through and proof read everything for you.)
So in the scenario that Toronto cuts a player and signs two min salary vets, we have 2.4 mil space remaining. In the other scenario (the one where we get Amir etc.), we have all 15 spots full. Perhaps we cut Sonny Weems (for the sake of argument), and add a min salary player (again, assuming the min salary is 1.3), leaving us with 0.6 mil in space.
The comparison would effectively be: Amir Johnson + min player + 0.6 mil before the luxury tax level, versus min player + min player + 2.4 mil before the luxury tax level. Even if you believe that there’s a min contract big who is better than Amir Johnson (I hope you gave an example of one above), what do you propose to do with the extra space before the luxury tax level?
Please answer the above questions, if you can.
I have answered most of your questions in the above comment. And for your last question, BC has always said and it is common sense for any team to prevent going soooo close to tax threshold. This is because if an oppurtunity presents itself for a team to want to shed some salary such as Sacramento (Nocioni, you need at least 2 million in space), you can take advantage of that situation. But now if we cut a player and get a vet minumum, we can’t do any of that. Seriously would any team shed salary to save 0.6 million?
Taking on Nocioni’s long and expensive contract in the face of a shrinking cap is not smart regardless.
Amir expires this year. Trading Ukic frees up more next year. Perfect.
Where did you respond with the name of the better big and the team that satisfies the Delfino bit? Considering there’s almost 200 posts here, wouldn’t it be easier if you just stated it again? The only mention of a big that I could find was Pops, and he’s definitely not better than Amir, not to mention he’s a FA.
You’re right. Financial flexibility *is* good. But don’t you think you honestly worry too much? If there was a deal to be made that would put us over the luxury tax level, and MLSE would not approve it unless we managed to stay below the level, there are *so many* pieces on the team right now that could be moved by February to get us back out of luxury tax land. Any of Johnson, Wright, O’Bryant, Weems, Douby and even Belinelli, if we don’t pick up next year’s option, could be sent to a team with space. It’s not like previous years where we had a bunch of hard to move contracts.
And btw saying Roko’s contract is 1.35 further proves my points than denying it… just so you know.
Oh, wow, thanks for the heads up! If you had read what I wrote (specifically, the “help you out a bit part”), you would notice that I was correcting your figures simply because they were wrong, and not because it helps my point any. ‘Cause, you know, being accurate is more important than winning and losing.
But that’s “just so you know.”
“please start reading some articles or at least listen to fan 590, instead of reading comments in Raptors dreamland here.”
The Fan590??
Wow.
At least now I know where you get your arguments from and why they are pretty much always wrong.
And since when analysts’ views who are professional, are less accurate than fans’ comments views?
You made the comments that listening to the Fan 590 or reading websites would make us better informed or “more accurate” [Opinions are just that - opinions - can't really be "more" or "less" accurate]
There are quite a few well informed comments on this site – as well as the authors. Some listen to the Fan590, some don’t. Doesn’t mean they are any more or less informed. They think for themselves, not copy the opinion of others.
+ 1.1Million
I cannot stop laughing. Great way to start the morning.
FAN590. BAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!
Were are discussing the availability of under 20 mins between the backup SF and another big man in the rotation. For BC this is a steal because he had 1 player that didnt want to be there and one that was made spare parts after the acuisition of belinelli. In all seriousness if Hedo does not play 36+ min the raps are in trouble because he was brought in to be one of our main guys and need him on the floor.
That said delfino was not going to play and even if he was on our bench he would chuck up 40 ft three pointers much like the last time he did not have a defined role on our team. In trading him we get a guy much younger then Delfino and who has always been admired by his coaches for potential and ability even if he only plays 10 mins. He has the ability to be a defender and a shotblocker, pops mensah bonsu has the ability to continue to trick truthers into believing in his game that has capped out and is full of holes.
I was never really sold on Ukic, his jumper was not going to get any better considering how shaky it was and his game had way more problems then calderons did in his first year. If he wasnt going to play it made sence to let him go amiacably. It doesnt matter that it was for Sonny Weems because in truth we are paying him next too and his playing time will reflect that. if a raptors roster at any point during the season featured sonny weems and amir johnson getting extended mins the raps are in trouble. Luckily they werent brought in for that purpose
“Bizarro-Joey”, I love it. That’s what I’mma call Sonny Weems all season long. He has got to be one of the Graham triplets as someone commented on earlier. Plus, doesn’t the name “Sonny Weems” sound like it belongs to a pimpin 70’s blaxploitation character?
here is a vid of sonny weems at the dunk competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwFxGVOwF_k
I just got a quick comment…
I was watching that first highlight clip on this page of Amir and i was thinking. Why is the Pistons starting 5 and the rest of the bench reacting like that to a wide open windmill? This guy is 6-9, wide open and it was under a minute left, if i’m not mistaken. My point is, i don’t think he does that on a regular basis. And another thing, i been trying to find other highlight videos of Amir and i can’t find em (Please post some if you got some). I’m not saying it’s a bad move or anything, i’m just saying don’t expect to much from him.
It’s garbage time. The bench was cheering on a young player for getting a breakaway dunk. I’d consider it building good chemistry.
Oooooh thats what it was, i thought it was the reaction to a bench warmer throwing one down. Sort of like if Marcus Banks comes through the lane and throws down a windmill, then run back down court and blocks a shot. The whole team would go crazy! But i hear you, i guess we need more JYD’s on the bench to go nuts for every play and that will build team chemistry?!!
HEY … Raps Fan … BC JUST BLEW UP THE RATPORS … AND THE ONLY SURVIVORS WERE BOSH, BARGS AND JOSE … AND THE NEXT CASUALTY MAY WELL BE BOSH … BECAUSE HE GAVE BARGS AND JOSE LONG TERM CONTRACTS ….. SOOOOOOOOO OBVIOUS…!!!!!
Everybody, ignore FAQ! That’s an order. We don’t want a repeat of yesterday.
Ignore REALITY???!!!! … the Ratz have been blown up … and the carnage is starting to sink into the small skulls of the t.h.fans who crawl about on this fine forum trying to put it all together like Lego blocks that kids play with …!!!!!
Does anybody here think that Bosh is delighted, verging on ecstatic, about the new edition of the Moronto Ratpors now …???!!!
Maybe several more seasons of high draft picks will make the Ratz a playoff team … even chimps too …!!!!
bosh and pops rights for yao
Turrible…
HEY … Raps Fan … you said this about the newly blown up Ratpors:
“By my count, that is 9 new players on this roster. NINE. Seriously, 60% of our roster was assembled during 6 weeks of whirlwind activity. Integrating them all while fielding a team with playoff designs will be a challenge to say the least. Triano sure has his work cutout for him, and if he fails, I can almost hear the excuses now: “he had 9 new players to work with…” I don’t know about y’all, but I’m freaking wiped out.”
BRILLIANT!!! … fucking brilliant … now we know you can count and that yer “freaking wiped out”. Any particular reason for that state of mind???
If nothing else, Amir (if he continues to develop) may be good Bosh-insurance at PF in case CB4 bolts
If Johnson is Bosh-insurance, then I weep for this franchise…actually I weep for myself for supporting such a poorly run team.
agreed with Raps Fan…although by now as craps fan we should stop assuming and just know that this is a poorly run team historically
Who cares about “historically”? If that’s the stance you take, then I’m afraid even if the team had good management (which I dare argue it does right now), you’d still be moaning about the past.
Hey, it’s just as good, if not better, than Cleveland’s Lebron-insurance or Miami’s Wade-insurance.
Raps Fans rule. I hardly have the time to read all the comments. BC’s moves and news that Basketball is the #1 sport watched by teens in Toronto is enough to make me cry tears of joy and run around the streets of Toronto wearing nothing but a toga.
Seriously the season needs to start now.
I would recommend everyone check out Amir’s page over at 82games.com
http://www.82games.com/0809/08DET11.HTM
His per 48 stats are pretty nice. Better rebound rate than any 08/09 Raptors besides Bosh and Hump (with 7 less FGA/48 than Hump), WAY better block rating than any Raptor, and plays relatively efficiently. Plus consider the fact that the rest of the big men in Detroit (Wallace, Maxiell, McDyess, and yes, even Kwame) are very capable rebounders, and his rebound rate becomes even more impressive.
To me it seems like he’ll be a younger, more athletic version of Hump. He probably doesn’t have Hump’s offensive game, but that might even be a good thing, as we all know how carried away Hump got with the rock in his hands.
I really hope he sees some decent minutes with the second unit.
Yeah, I brought that page up yesterday. Fairly impressive, but still a drop from the previous year. I was surprised, actually…I thought he would have performed better given the depleted Pistons team compared to years past.
Horrible one-on-one guy, though.
Ah, my apologies then. Didn’t have time to get by here yesterday.
Definitely doesn’t have much one on one game, but from what I’ve seen of him he doesn’t try and go one on one too much anyway (ahem…Hump)
And yeah, the numbers are down across the board except for fouls, which isn’t great news. I would’ve thought he would get a bigger bump in minutes than he did though. They did have a new coach, so that may have been a factor.
No need for apologies, it wasn’t a shot, just point of reference.
Agree that he doesn’t try to go one on one, but part of that (IMHO) is because he has a Moon-like games at times: look for the weakside block and to hell with your man. That scares me a little, but is offset by 2 things: I’m not sure he will play too many minutes in the majority of games and I think Triano can actually work with him in this respect.
If I recall correctly, Amir was a starter at first and then came off the bench last season. This year he has a new squad and a contract to play for…love to see him pull it back together.
That’s correct, I believe. I don’t think they got what they were looking for out of him in the starting 5.
I agree with your assessment of his D. Along those lines, I think that’s what prevents him from being an even better rebounder too. If he stuck with his man he’d be in better position for the box out.
Stat ON Court OFF Court Net
Minutes 910 3069 22%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 106.9 108.5 -1.6
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.8 110.8 -9.0
Net Points per 100 Possessions +5.1 -2.3 +7.4
These stats right here suggest he is an outstanding team defender.
YES!
AMIR JOHNSON!
YES!!
FREE AMIR!
I want a red-lettered name. This is obvious favoritism.
You’ve got to earn it son!
Nah, just kidding. Just put a website in the website box before you comment and your name becomes a link.
I like BC’s approach this year, we have two guys with alot of potentials who can either have a great season or …. Belineli and Johnson now. If these two guys have a break out season, something like AB did last year, Raptor fans will have one great year ahead of them.
i remember i watched some kind of dunk contest,
i think it was a the mcdonalds all american high school ?
not sure but sonny weems was in it and im pretty sure he won (or came second)
all i knnow is this guy can dunk,
AND GODDAMN HE LOOKS JUST LIKE JOEY
Solid trade BryCo working his magic again. I agree with Dr. Claw the back-up SF is not as important as you guys are making. Theres only going to be at most 10 minutes and we can divide that minutes between the guys we already have. If we can add someone to fill that spot cool if not its not the end of the world.
Dude, you’re resorting to semantics. If anybody actually said ‘favours’ I’m sure it wasn’t in reference to the agent blantantly disobeying the best interests of the client simply to repay BC. You seem to finally be getting the point, that he’s procuring respect around the league from potential FAs and agents, so they’ll be more likely to sign here in the future.
It’s not a tough concept, and nobody suggested something as ridiculous as you’re keeping on about.
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[...] Raptors Republic: "By my count, that is nine new players on this roster. NINE. Seriously, 60% of our roster was assembled during six weeks of whirlwind activity. Integrating them all while fielding a team with playoff designs will be a challenge to say the least. Triano sure has his work cutout for him, and if he fails, I can almost hear the excuses now: ‘He had nine new players to work with …’ I don’t know about y’all, but I’m freaking wiped out." [...]