First up, respect to AltRaps for breaking this story first on any blog or website.
You have to love moves that have no negative possibilities and the Belinelli trade is just that. This one falls in the “doesn’t hurt” category. As in, it doesn’t hurt to have some more insurance at shooting guard. Or, it doesn’t hurt to have another ball-handler who can get hot from time to time and finally, it doesn’t hurt to give Bargnani a real friend on the team. The 6′ 5″ Italian was lost in the shuffle in Golden State and a change of scenery will do him some good, but the stark reality remains that he’s unlikely to get the 21 minutes he got last year, unless of course Delfino is out of the picture. Look at it this way: it’s better to have a deep and meaningful bench that could come in handy than have Devean George at the end of it playing tic-tac-toe with Marcus Banks.
Why did we do it?
Credit to Colangelo for creating something out of nothing and believe me, Devean George was nothing. At best he was going to be third on the depth chart at any position and I’m sure he wouldn’t have been thrilled. Colangelo nips the possibility of a disgruntled player in the bud and acquires a young, skilled player who will have a chance to crack the rotation in training camp, that’s more than what you could say about George who is coming of knee surgery to repair cartilage damage.
After recognizing the crappy qualities of Will Solomon and Hassan Adams, Colangelo’s tried to acquire Belinelli last year in November but the offer which apparently involved Kris Humphries was promptly turned down. Sources in Italy continued to link him to the Raptors for obvious reasons and when the trade didn’t happen by the deadline, everyone was silently surprised. After all, we needed help in the backcourt and Belinelli wasn’t playing in GSW. It only made sense. Now that the point-guard position is settled it’s time to worry about the backup wing and he’s perfect insurance in case we can’t get Kleiza or Delfino to sign. If Colangelo deems him worthy of significant minutes it’ll allow us to fill out that final roster spot with a big man instead, something we need even more.
What do we have in him?
He is a scorer, a dramatically inconsistent and frustrating one but he is a scorer. On any given night he could be our Vinny “Microwave” Johnson or our Fred Jones, you just don’t know what you’re going to get. When he’s on, he’s unstoppable and when he’s not, he’s terrible. He dropped 37 in a summer league game in 2007 and the Raptors received first-hand punishment last year in Golden State when he dropped 23 on us circus-style. That inconsistency is what kept him out of the lineup in GSW who already have enough players who take terrible shots. He played the majority of his minutes at SG last year and spent the rest of them at the SF, but take that with a grain of salt because Don Nelson’s offense doesn’t define positions, just players. He’s a basketball player that can make stuff happen if you give him the freedom and he’s going to get that chance. Just like Douby, he’ll have an opportunity to steal minutes away from Antoine Wright and Jarrett Jack at the SG. Whether he has the discipline to stay in control of his talents and harness his offensive urges remains to be seen. Even if he doesn’t, at the end of the day we get a 23 year old for a 32 year old.
Is he good enough to get time?
His playing time will depend entirely on whether we manage to sign Delfino because that’ll determine if he’s 2nd or 3rd in the second wing depth-chart. Suddenly signing Delfino isn’t that important and we’ve gained a bargaining chip in the negotiations – we already got somebody inconsistent! Belinelli’s lack of strength on the defensive end is a concern but you could easily argue that he’s a better offensive weapon than Delfino. Belinelli’s a career 40% three-point shooter (Delfino is at 36%) and has a quicker first step, something coaches in Golden State and Europe felt he doesn’t utilize nearly enough. He’s got the slashing ability to use screens and then unleash a shot using his high release-point, something similar to what Anthony Parker did well his first year with the Raptors.
Theoretically speaking, if Belinelli could usurp Wright as one of the off-guards and get consistent minutes at the position, we could move Jack over to strictly backup PG duties, but I don’t see it happening because of Belinelli’s defense. Jack is just too good and strong of a defender to not guard the tougher SGs out there. Belinelli’s best shot at making a mark is at SF where the competition isn’t as stiff. If Delfino is out than all he’s got to do is beat Wright which isn’t inconceivable. Really, can’t say much about his role on the team until we know what we’re doing with that final roster spot.
Salary Impact
None. George makes $1,600,000, Belinelli makes $1,547,640 and both are going to enter the final year of their contracts. Belinelli has a team-option followed by a qualifying offer which works out to the Raptors’ advantage since if he shows something good, we can get him cheap ($2.4M and $3.4M, respectively). The Raptors send some cash to Golden State to make up the difference in talent and age. The amount can’t exceed $3M and it certainly isn’t even going to be close, I’m almost ready to call the amount negligible. The cash does not count against the cap for either team and if anything, we end up shedding $52,360 off the cap. Why Golden State would do this trade is a mystery and the only thing that I can conjure up is that maybe it’s easier later on to trade a player who doesn’t have options and qualifying offers attached to him. That and they believe in Anthony Morrow.
Keep in mind that the salary cap and tax will be lower next year and if Bosh signs an extension at the max, we’ll have to cross the tax level to sign these players.
Check back later in the day for a podcast.
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156 Raps
Early bird get the worm, or fist post…
Altraps does seem to be a tenasious digger for stories. One of the MAIN reasons I don’t have to stray from this site for Raps stuff.
Don’t know the new Italian Stallion, but it seems like BC if set on focusing on team chemistry. I agree. It’s better then having Georgy being a sour-puss at the end of the bench dream about the warmer southren climate.
Bargnani can speak more in his native tounge on the floor. You might hear Bargnani & Belinelli yelling “Fungula” on a couple bad shoots.
chow.
fangula? I doubt they will, it’s a southern regional form for fanculo, which is what they’ll use, along with FAR worse words, believe me :)
My Italian does sucks. My Great Grand Father is from Castelli(Middle of the Boot). I was alway told ‘Fungula’. I could be wrong. Maybe it’s just another SLANG version.
Italy is full of regionalisms and dialects and it’s really fun to hear all the different ways to express a simple idea. I’m from the north-east of Italy and while we use fanculo we also have many other regional ways to express the same concept, often involving other body parts (and deities). I’m pretty sure Andrea and Marco will teach us even more :)
I actually want to see Bargnani get ‘really’ mad this season. Let the Italian blood boil. He’s been too restrained for last couple years. He’s gotta get ‘Fired Up’! Let the Italian tounge fly! I want to see El Mago. He’s needs to Rock the Rim a couple times. Quit living on the arc so much. Somebody needs to elbow him. Cue Dwight. He likes to elbow people.
It would be great to see Andrea get more aggressive, I think he will, expecially if he continues to develop his midrange game. Unfortunately I doubt we will see much screaming and cursing from him; like me he is a “quiet italian” (lot of cursing inside, not much outside). Il Mago (and Marco too) should take some lessons from Jack Galanda, Andrea Meneghin or that crazy guy Pozzecco :)
DUDE have we been watching the same games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHlCndXvODY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdGQn3k7Aw
– I like the second one Bargs tosses him like a bitch, cause well….he is a bitch.
Very great post Arse. You laid out Marco’s strengths and weaknesses fairly. At the end of the day, a great signing as this really solidfies our bench which can do some serious damage in transition.
Truer words have never been spoken. ;)
Now the question is what to do with the last remaining roster spot.
hmm.. this kind of makes delfino redundant.
I dont want to have 5 players on this team who can play shooting guard…
People seem to think bringing back Pops would be a reasonable idea.
I think, this might be favorable in comparison to bringing back delfino…
but then again, visions of Pops doing something awe inspiring, then later mucking it up with a feet just as un-awe inspiring, come soaring back to me.
What we should do.
Trade Ukic, and maybe Wright for someone who can legit play the SF, sign leon powe to the vet’s minimum for two years, and pick up Delfino.
Leon Powe is a restricted FA. You aren’t getting him for the vet’s min.
Powe is an unrestricted free agent, Boston didn’t make a qualifying offer.
LEON POWE IS UNRESTRICTED.
the Celtics did not extend a qualifying offer to him. He would be a perfect fit as a 5th big man. Relentless on the boards and on defence. HE could go for the minimum and apparently the Cavs have interest in him.
Raps should sign this guy and buy out POB.
You guys are right, my bad.
WE cant package wright with anyone…the only way we can trade him (within the next 2 and a half months) is in one for ones…
I’m thinking that we can move Wright to the SF position since he can play that position as well. Jack/Belinelli/Wright/Evans/Nesterovic. That bench looks nice there.
i agree that second unit looks like it could compete. although im not on the evans wagon yet, iv never really watched him , but everyone else looks solid, still lackin D tho
Imagine a younger, taller, Oak, without the ability to shot, or the leadership and thankfully without the no look pass.
How much money Do we have to offer to POP if we decide to not sign Delfino ( Which I am assuming is what BC is doing by signing Belinili) ?
Also, is Wright at small forward enough Depth for our team ?
Also, How much time really poor Douby is going to get now that we have Belinili, I read he can play both Guards ??
BC will be my new GOD if he mamanges to get a SF for any combination of Roko, Douby, POB and Banks :)
a god? more like GM jesus lmao
im thinking Roko, and Douby will be gone soon..maybe POB
No, O’Bryant will be a final 3rd string center according to Colangelo.
not if we trade him…then it might be Pops
Sure, why don’t we just sign Graham to fill in at the 5 as well. =P In fact, Graham could probably guard the 4 better than Pops.
I’m not a fan of POB’s, but it’s very unlikely that BC will trade O’Bryant. There’s a reason why he chose to keep O’Bryant over Pops in the first place (and for more money at that). With Pops, you already know what you’re getting. Sure, he’s a crowd pleaser because of his energy and enthusiasm, but he’s lacking pretty much everywhere else. There’s a reason why you don’t see other teams clamoring to sign him to a minimum deal, which I’m sure he’d gladly accept. O’Bryant will probably amount to nothing, but he has true center size and certain raw tools that teams are willing to take a chance on, and that’s what BC is doing. Nesterovic will backup Bargnani, and O’Bryant will see very limited minutes as the 3rd center. At worse, it’s a one year “test drive” to see what he’s got, if anything.
I think at this stage the last piece we need is someone who can bring energy off the bench. I know Pops may not be the best overall ball player, but I think he is more of an impact guy at this stage. If we have size (rasho) and toughness (evans) as backup bigs, the last thing we need is that offensive punch and athleticism. POB does not bring that, but Pops does. Pops could develop further as a ball player if given time i’m sure, but in the mean time, we’d have a guy who we know, when put in the game, has the ability to crash the glass aggressively and finish strong, either on the break, off an alley or just off an offensive rebound. Line up would look like this:
Calderon/Jack/Roko/Banks
Derozan/Belinelli/Douby
Turkoglu/Wright
Bosh/Evans/Pops/
Bargnani/Nesterovic/O’Bryant
I think Wright can be a solid back up SF considering we could also use Derozan in that spot depending on the game. I mean the this team doesn’t have to be perfectly built in every position, as long as the team plays well enough to win games and everyone knows and accepts their roles. Since BC as decided that POB is someone he wants to keep, I think that it would be better for him to perhaps maybe trade Roko, Douby (though i still think we should keep him) or (i’m on my knees praying everyday) Banks. I know no one wants Banks, but i also know that BC is a wizard and has consistently made moves that no one has expected. BC isn’t stupid, he knows how much energy Pops brought to the team and the fans. If the Raps can resign Pops and then perhaps trade 1, 2 or 3 of the guys I mentioned, for perhaps draft picks or for maybe 1 player to free up another roster spot, then i say sign an athletic 3/4 (a la Hakim Warrick) to play behind Turk/Wright and depending on the matchup slide to 4. That would be the finishing touch to me.
oh and when i said “the last thing we need is that offensive punch and athelticism” i meant, that is something we need, not something that we don’t.
I just read it back and it sounded like i’m saying we dont need it, but we do.
My guess is either DeRozan or Wright will start at the 2, and whoever loses that battle in training camp will be the backup 3. DD has both the size and length to comfortably guard most any 3 in the league.
I say you are correct.
I think you’ll find DD is not ready to guard the NBA 3 position. Whereas Wright has shown he is at least adequate there.
Well I like the move. It gives more depth and a player who can score off the bench.
I think what we should do with the last roster spot is maybe sign Joey G. I know what your thinking(wtf joey?!?!). Yes. Joey said he wants to stay in Toronto. He said he will take a paycut. And quite frankly unless BC makes another crazy move (like trading Banks, Roko or douby for a decent player), we do not have enough money to sign a back up SF that is more talented and athletic than joey.
Bench:
Rasho/Evans/Joey/Marco or Wright(depending on minutes)/Jack
Starters:
Andrea/Bosh/Hedo/DeMar/Jose
Now the line ups can change depending on SG position and whether Jack will spend time at the two or not, and if DeMar or Wright are going to play SF.
Another option is singing Pops but I don’t see how he will get minutes. Maybe if we can get Patrick O’Bryant’s contract bought out and we replace him with Pops. I am not sure if we have enough cash since we just have Golden state cash for Marco.
Anyway good job BC the team is looking great and hopefully we have a great year.
- George
Derozan will NOT be ready to start. He will get eaten alive by opposing twos, and between him and Calderon we will have the worst defensive starting backcourt in the league. Starting Marco will make matters even worse. These guys are bench players.
I totally agree. Let the rook get his bearings and play with the second unit. If we want him to be a good defender, he should start by defending the other teams second unit. No way he should begin by guarding Pierce/Allen at the start of the season. Wright makes much more sense considering our starters.
I agree, but also love the idea of Belinelli and DeRozan feast on other back-ups.
I don’t know, I think by guarding better players first sure he’ll get burned hard at the beginning but he will learn to defend his position that much more quicker.
I am thinking we should sign Leon Powe, as mentioned above.
I don’t know why everyone else hasn’t been mentioning this.
obviously the guy is injured, and this is concerning, but do you guys remember how good he was for the celtics.
This is a guy who was a fantastic rebounder, and got to the charity stripe at a percentage that is comparable to the best players in the game (including Chris Bosh)
He’d be infinitely better than Pops, and should be on the market for a minimum salary. I mean he’s a risk to be injured for half the season, so he can’t be in much demand.
This makes absolute sense, considering he would be filling out the latter 15 of our roster anyways. While he is recovering from injury, we could easily suffice with the 5 Bigs rotation of CB, AB, Evans, Rasho ” I don’t drink and sled” Nestorovic, and POB (if somebody gets injured).
Once Powe comes back from his injury, he would make POB irrelevant, and it would mean we would have to rely less on Evans, and we would have both a front court and a back court that could rival all others in the East.
Whether its a one year deal, or a two year deal, or even a three year deal (for the right price.. aka minimum), I think this will be a smart singing… even if we don’t see the dividends for half a year.
as much as i like powe (and people have mentioned him), we also realize that he’s not an unrestricted free agent and unless BC overpays for him too, the Celtics will definitely match the offer sheet. they still see value in him as insurance for their frontcourt.
it also makes me cringe when someone says “once he comes back from injury”….
i wouldn’t put anything past colangelo right now, but this is also highly unlikely to happen.
okay fair point, I failed to take into account his restricted status.
shame though, because he’d be a great addition.
well, that & the fact that the RAPS DON’T HAVE ENOUGH $$ LEFT TO SIGN FA’S WHOSE RIGHTS THEY DON’T OWN. it’s the only reason they’re still interested in delfino, ’cause they can sign him for whatever they want. unless powe (or any other FA) is willing to sign for the scraps left over from the jack signing (forgive me, i don’t have the exact figure), then signing any FA’s is pretty much out of the picture.
well thats why I was proposing that he would sign for the vets minimum for a year… seems like a likely possibility to me.
my bad, i didn’t realize that that Boston didn’t extend a qualifying offer to hum. Still don’t think it’s likely because the Raps are strapped for money but hey…. you never know with BC.
trade ukic, waive banks, sign james singletary(more versatile, better defender then pops…can play 3/4)and then fill the 15th spot with whatever…whoever it is wont play anyway
yea its just that easy!
I like the Singleton suggestion, but waiving Banks does not take is salary off the books. It would serve no purpose other than freeing up a roster spot that we cannot really afford to fill with anyone but a vet-minimum player. Trading Banks is the only option. He could be worth more next season with his expiring contract. Our best tradeable assets at this point are Delfino in a sign-and-trade, and Douby and Ukic. Though Im not quite ready to tie a can to Ukic yet, but if he can be part of a deal that would get us a backup SF who can rebound and play D, it would be worth considering.
your right about banks, but really if were paying him to sit there and not play we might as well pay him to leave even if he is on the books. in the stagnant free agent class there will be bargains for utility players at the vet min. banks will just be a cancer at the end of the bench. this team wont work without chemistry and everyone having a role and being on board
Um no. If we’re paying him either way, we may as well get something for him, and not open up a slot for the 15th guy on the roster, who won’t be playing anyway. You do realize that only 12 players can be active right? Why go through so much trouble just to have some other player on the inactive list?
waive douby* banks is impossible…typo…see if you can light banks on fire or something
I guarantee, Ukic, Douby, or hopefully Bargs will be waived somehow.
wtf !!!
I’m pretty sure he/she meant Banks not Bargs
Major Typo!!!! Thx guys….
This trade does have two effect:
first: make my life easier as all the italians now play in the east :)
second:Raps are now sure that Kobe isn’t dropping 81 anymore to them.
I watched all Belinelli game this year and during the 15 games in which Belinelli have started he was THE guy dedicated to limit Kobe, and he did.
Same happened to Paul Pierce.. so saying his defense isn’t good is underrating him.
Ya know what…Kobe can speak Italian!! I was so surprised before! And if he plays us, Kobe knows how to trash talk and understand both of their Italian trash talking, that would be so cool and funny!
Good point Mauro, I hated those 4 am GS games :)
About his defense: it’s not good right now. The defensive talent is there, not 1st defensive team talent but solid, he just needs to keep focused, add some muscles and work on his balance a bit (=move those feet marco!). I saw Marco on Kobe, he did a pretty good job, probably il Beli needs motivation to keep his concentration/interest on the defensive end, kobe is a good motivation for sure :)
marco belinelli and ruben patterson = Kobe Killers…hahaha
Add Battier to that list. He did the best job this season limiting Kobe to contested jumpers. Anyone that wants to better understand how a TEAM defends Kobe needs to study what the Rockets did in the playoffs. Kobe scored averaged 30 points a night taking only contested jumpers. That’s how good the guy is!
Guys, Just Imagine how Happy Triano and the coaching staff are right now :)
BC is giving Triano a boat load ot Talents and is saying GO TO WORK with it.
God please keep the injueries away from Raptors so we can have a decent season. As a Raptor Fan, we all deserve it.
Yea Triano, Colangelo, Bellinli, Bargs. Its little Italy! This is what the Raps should do now, if the score 100 points free Pasta and Meat Sauce.
don’t forget iavaroni…
and gherardini
We need to complete the white wash and move Bosh for a combo of like Marc Gasol, that Argie dude at Houston, maybe Ricky Rubio’s contract too – Basically anything European (South Americans will have to become citizens of Spain).
Then complete the transformation by ditching the Dino and becoming Real Toronto – and have all players speak only their native tongues in interviews, grow play off beards and drink black coffee and smoke on the bench…
LOL!!! That would be just crazy! But then the team would be balanced and decently skilled to compete for playoff contention…but it ain’t happening.
W’s fan here with quick input. I’m a season ticket holder and went to about 35 games last year, same the year before. Marco’s defense is not as bad as it’s made out to be; in fact, I’d argue he was one of the better defenders on the floor last year. I honestly thought that the W’s generally looked better with him on the floor than without him. For some reason, he and Nellie just didn’t click; I also think he didn’t click with some of the other players, but I think it’s a Euro-US thing. He should do fine for you…
He’ll dazzle you with some fancy no-look passes. He’s a fan-fave here, and he’ll be on there too. I say skip Primadonna Delfino and let Marco be your backup 2. I think you’ll be happy you did.
Thanks, you are the 2nd person who said this and I am really hoping you are right. However, it seems like alot of people are questioning his defensive abilities and … Thank you for sharing
Jack or Derozan will be the first option at backup SG, with Wright getting consideration starting as he is a far better defnder than Marco and whomever says Marco can guard Kobe, I will assume you are talking about pornstar Kobe Tai, cuz Marco is a below avg defender. No two ways about that.
hey, thanks for the input coach Triano. i didnt know you visit this blog too.
I would say this deal is like getting a younger, more athletic Kapono for $1.5 Million and signing Reggie Evans for $5 Million….splitting Kapono’s Contract of $6-6.5 Million into 2 useful and reasonably good players.
Next Move , Rudy Fernandez from Portland :)
In a seriuos note, Is his game similar to Rudy ? I have not seen Belinili play much but have seen Rudy alot so the comparison will really help.
Thanks
BANKS FOR RUDY! STR8 UP!
I have been saying that for a year now! Rudy and Outlaw for Bosh? Not a bad deal for the Raps…
Its definetely not a good deal for us. Outlaw and Rudy are marginally good players at best… and you think thats a good deal for bosh?
Now, a negative comments on Belinili from Warrior fan:
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/7/30/968792/warriors-trade-marco-belinelli-to?ref=yahoo
Wow, he really hates Marco. I’ve watched him play, he can break your ankles dribbling, shoot the ball pretty well and hes a much better on-the-ball defensive player at 23 years old than alot of vets at the 2. I for one think BC made a great decision in picking this young buck for a piece of shit like george and a lil’ cash. Who wants to bet this is the last year we see Devon in the league?
I’m sure he’s atma brother, don’t even need to take a look. Never liked GSoM, always felt it’s too unprofessional (=hate/love oriented, bashing, and all this “we are the best fans in the world” thing).
Guys we should thank the RR crew for giving us great stuff to read, not just insults and adoration.
Nice article. . . Marco was picked 18 which is pretty high for european standards because at the time he was picked. . . European experiments were not high on the draft nights. . . He’s a perfect 6th man type player and i think he’ll be a better contributor offenfivly then jack. . . He’s not no ginobli but make no mistake when he slashes, she shows ginobli like moves. . . I’ve seen this kid play and he needs a team like toronto to show his skill. . . GSW had so many guards at the 2 3 spot no wonder he didn’t get to fit the system and a lot of them established players which took away from him more. . . I don’t see the need for delfino, but more of a need for a guy like pops because if a centre goes down. . . We can move evans to 5 and pops at four instead of getting the other tall man who was drafted by GSW. . . whats his face! exactly i forgot his name! lol. . .
Jack will be the 6th man. No doubt about that. He is a better player than Marco in every facet (except maybe shooting the 3). I realize the Woodbridge crowd is excited about this, as they seem to be hailing this guy as some sort of saviour, but the fact is, he will be option number 8-10 on this team and rightly so. Jack will be our best scoring option off the bench. He can create his own shot and pentetrate at will. he will be on the floor when at the end of the game when we need to score. Not sure why Jack isn’t getting the love that Marco seems to be getting. Jack is BC’s best move (factoring in salary) this off-season.
It’s not just the Woodbridge crowd who like him. I like what skills he brings right now, but also his up side.
He’s VERY skilled offensively. Yes, he can shoot, but his handles are above-average to good, and his passing is way above average as a SG, which I love.
Disagree with this trade being a positive all around.
Belineli does not know what defence is. He always gives up more than he scores. When you put 5 players out there he will be the one that they will key in on. What good is a 16pt avg when the guy he is guarding is avg 25?
Jose + Marco (on court) will hurt us dearly.
The reason that a lot of players get cut from this league even though they can score, is because they can’t stop others from scoring. Belineli can’t stop a stop watch. I will be surprised if he gets a 2nd contract, but than again, he has Bryan now… so that is assured.
I wouldn’t get too excited, its still not too late for Nellie to turn all douchey again and back out of the deal
The biggest problem with us getting Belineli is that our management has already shown that it is willing to sacrifice team success in order to develop players.
I don’t want to watch another crappy season of us getting lit up by other teams just because BC & MG want to develop another Italian prospect.
and just how much ‘team success’ was george going to contribute to? it’s not as though the raps gave up ANYTHING of significance to acquire belineli, so wtf is the big deal? no, marco isn’t a defensive stopper, but before we proclaim him a sieve, how ’bout we actually wait & see him play a game or two.
IMO, what his acquisition allows the raps to do is find the best combinations of offense/defense among what is becoming a decent stable of backcourt guys. they won’t be limited to having to play certain players when the matchups aren’t in their favour. it also makes it less important to re-sign delfino, and gives them some flexibility to make other moves, either now or down the road.
depth. say it with me. D. E. P. T. H. not at one or two positions, but pretty much up & down the lineup. depth. ahhhh.
The problem I have with Belineli is that he will actually see game time, and he is far from ready for this league. He is still a sizable liability when on the court.
Also knowing us we will give him 20+ minutes. That scares the hell out of me, I want us to do something this season. He comes from a system that is the worst defensively in the league, and where he was hands down the worst defender.
If we use him as a role player great, but I have a feeling that our brass sees him as more. They always get mesmerised by these sorts of players and it ends up costing us a season.
it’s just my opinion, but i think you’re overstating his defensive limitations. like i said, let’s see him play. this is a wing-oriented game, and this simply gives the raps more options…hopefully, if he is as limited on the defensive end of the floor, the coaches will be able to pair him with a stronger defensive partner in the backcourt.
i’m also intrigued that he can play some PG, at least in spot duty. never hurts to have another competent ball-handler/distributor on the court or in reserve.
oh, i also think drawing any conclusions about a player’s defensive abilities (or lack thereof) in nellie’s system is somewhat foolhardy.
at the end of the day, they acquired a guy who may very well have significant limitations in his overall game, but who, if used in the right way/situations, could actually provide a tangible benefit…something that george was simply never going to do.
Don Nelson sat Belineli for most of his NBA stint because he felt the kid was a huge liability while on the floor. This is while acknowledging that he was impressed with the kids offensive talent.
This is common knowledge, not something that I am making up for these comments.
The whole team was horrible defensively, for Marco to stand out so much that Don did not even want to take the chance with his offence speaks volumes.
Don Nelson doesn’t know a damn thing about Defense. They should call him On Nelson.
On this you are 100% wrong.
There was one single reason behind Nelson having Marco in his doghouse: Marco was choosen by Mullin.
Don have played Marco only when forced by injuries. Spend 5 minutes of our life and pay a visit to some GSW forum and you will see that Marco was probably the best defender on GSW when he was playing.
Last give a look to last year GSW-LAL and GSW-BOS.
And you will see what Kobe and Ray Allen did when guarded by Belinelli
So I did, and it’s not good.
GSW-LAL
Dec 28 / Kobe 9 for 15 (60%!) and 10/10 at line.
Jan 7 / Kobe 9 for 20 (45%) [Belinelli 6 fo 15, 40%, -11]
Feb 21 / Kobe 9 for 22 (41%), Belinelli only 15 min
Mar 19 / Belinelli only played 10 min / Kobe 9 for 25 > hard to say as Stephen Jackson likely guarded him much more that game.
If anything looks like Kobe shot better when Belinelli guarded him more often.
GSW-BOS
Nov 26 Belinelli DNP (Allen 10 for 17)
Dec 26 Allen (3 for 6) and Belinelli played most of the game.
So, it appears that Belinelli PERHAPS only have one good outing over these six games. Not sure your argument is very strong.
Don Nelson is bat-shit crazy. Being in Nelson’s dog house should be as meaningful as being his most recent man-crush. Larry Brown probably regards Nelson as fickle.
I hope you guys are right and I am overreacting to the kids defence.
I just think that our fanbase and management overvalues Beleneli, maybe this is an extension of the love/hate we have with Andrea. With that said, the trade itself is a good trade, I just question the fit.
I don’t want to see the same polarity in the fanbase that we saw with Andrea. I want the best on the floor, and if Belineli gets outplayed by douby or a lower profile player I don’t want to be seeing favouritism.
Most of us already feel that the kid will be handed higher minutes on our roster than anywhere in the league, that should give fans some pause.
In fact Belineli, will make Jose look like a defensive stopper.
It’s not that the kid does not want to play D, its just that he can’t, he doesn’t have the tools… and most likely never will.
Why all the hate?
Just how many games have you actually watched the kid play over the past 2 years?
Most of us only get to see the kid max. 2x per season (he torched the Raps last year) – not much to throw the kid under the bus with. His numbers are on par with Delfino who wants $4-5m. Donnie had way to many wing players and MB only got to play when enough of his overpaid wings went down with injuries – and the kid had good numbers then.
Basicly we got a cheap young player, with maybe a season’s worth of experience that management likes and was a reasonably high draft pick FOR NOTHING! If he pans out, he’s a steal – if not, he’s another in a very long line of guys who couldn’t make the jump to the NBA game. Why trash someone before there is ANY WAY ANYBODY could know how this is going to turn out?
so i choose to misread your logic and assume that jose is now a bruce bowen esque defender…i need to sleep at night
just one thing: he’s far better than ukic. better body,better shooter,better passer. he’s also confident.
really good job Brian
I think Ukic has more potential as a point guard in this league than Marco has as a SF.
Defence at the SF position is critical. He doesn’t have NBA skills on the other side of the ball.
I don’t really understand how you can not like this trade. YOu think that George would be the answer at small foward, he’s too slow and fat to guard anything (maybe a box of krispy kreme’s), and can’t do anything else either.
Turk will play over 30 minutes, Wright will take about 15 of those, and just go small for 5 minutes and play Derozan at the 3 spot (he’s athletic enough to do it).
If need be, if someone sustains a major injury, just sign someone of the free agency list for the vets minimum, like Joey :)
he’s a 2.
That’s a silly comparison to make. Why not say Ukic has more potential as a point guard than Jack has as a SF so we shouldn’t acquire Jack? Marco will mainly play at the 2. The only time he’ll play at the 3 is if the matchup provides for it, which would be the same for anyone else really.
so r u saying that altraps broke the story before Yahoo sports?…if so, great job!!!!!!!!
i’m getting a raptors jersey with ‘colangelo’ on the back.
im getting a Steve Fruitman raps jersey
+ 1
according to 82games, def fg% allowed wasn’t considerably worse, it was actually 0.1% better. he still allowed his opponent to produce more than him overall, but he was 22 or 23 last year, and playing on a relatively shite team.
i like him more than devean george, and those ads for italian food with bargnani will get even better with another guinea in the mix!
compared to past seasons, all of a sudden we have a bit of talent and potential for the future, which is weird.
I don’t want to start celebrating yet, but you add this to the below market value pickup of Rasho and I’m starting to feel better about this team. Smart moves and signings to build a credible bench from nothing. So congrats on that, BC. But I have to let you know that I am now making the sign of the cross and praying we do not finish up with 33 wins again.
Great post Arsenalist – agree with most of the points. [And Kudos to altraps for breaking the story!]
I agree that something/potential is better than nothing (George would not see a lick of playing time).
I am a little concerned that there may be pressure to play Belinelli a “reasonable” amount >> and that his lack of defense (I do see that 82games.com has him as a net positive, but its GSW for goodness sake > defensive stats with GSW are effectively useless) may outweigh his offensive skills. We will generally have enough firepower, but as I suggested the other day, holding our opponent’s to a lower FG% is likely our most critical flaw > and playing Belinelli may send this stat the wrong way.
If he’s more an insurance policy and a “free” option w/ potential upside, then certainly its a nice upgrade.
So, question to the insightful and resourceful: who’s left our there as a (VERY) poor man’s version of Battier/Jones. [emphasize "poor man's version"!]?
You just said it yourself, GSW defensive stats are useless. If Marco is a net positive on the absolute worst defensive team in the NBA, he probably isn’t completely worthless defensively as a lot of people are saying.
I think Marco gives them a cheap short term option at SG, whereas Delfino is expensive and would have crippled the Raps ability to spend any money next season.
It allows Jay to move Wright to the back up SF (assume Hedo goes 33 mins a game in the reg season, so Wright gets 15 mins).
Demar, Jack, and Marco will split the mins at SG. It really doesn’t matter who “starts” at SG because we all have to recognize that Demar will get AT LEAST 30 mins a game, so he can develop. That leaves 18 mins to split between Jack and Marco. Its not like Jay has to substitute like he is a hockey coach, I am confident that he will develop a substitution pattern that will meet the Raps needs.
At least 30? You’re kidding right? If they want him to develop, it’ll be 15-20. You’re going to wear out the kid completely, playing 30 mins a game in his first 82 game season ever.
It’s a positive to exchange a guy who wasn’t going to play for a guy who might but if Belinelli is getting minutes and makes Delfino expendable is that the best thing for this team?
Delfino is at best a role player but the role he plays helps us in key areas (rebounding and defence). From what i’ve seen of Belinelli, he can score but those other elements his game are lacking and no one can tell me he rebounds the ball better than Delfino.
Also whats up with this Eurofied team? I’m not trying to be bigoted but the Raps have the potential to trot out an all Euro line-up at anytime and I dont’ want to be a marketing ploy to illustrate ‘Toronto’s diversity’.
We know how diverse the city is already, many of us live here and see it. BC should just get the best talent available and guys that want to defend and rebound to fill out roster spots. I don’t care about Andrea having a friend on the team if that player can’t defend or help out rebounding, which or areas we need to improve to be a top tier team.
Thank you, Sleepz. You hit the nail on the head. If people get excited about a player because he is Euro or Italian, then they are not really Raptor or NBA basketball fans. They are Euro or Italian fans first. Was this a good pickup? Yes, I think it was considering what we gave up, but only if we can get an SF who can rebound and play D. Bargs does not need a buddy. Nor does Bosh for that matter. Anyone who says Jack was picked up because he was Bosh’s friend knows absolutely nothing about Jack’s game. This team needs to be tougher defensively. Marco does nothing to address that. But he will have a role as a shooter of the bench who could get 10 minutes of playing time a game. He has done nothing thus far to warrant talk of anything more than that. Sorry Woodbridge!
A little bit of an aside on that … I’m sure most Raptors fans want the best players first, but I wouldn’t be surprised if part of the appeal for Colangelo coming to Toronto in the first place was the challenge of increasing the fan base by targeting (what I once read was) the ‘largest Italian population in any city outside of Italy’. He was already friends with Gheradini (I’m guessing on that) who was almost a part of the Bargnani selection/deal, so it was kind of obvious that he (likely) had it on his mind to get the local Italians as interested in the game as what Italians in Italy are.
I’d bet it’s working and … it’s working out for me. I’m not Italian, but my wife is, so … I used the Bargnani hook when he was drafted to get her into the game and … she DID get into it. She loves Il Mago. The last few years, I’ve rarely had to wangle or bargain to tune the big-screen in to whatever Raptors game is on and now that Belinelli is coming … she’ll probably fall in love. And I won’t mind a bit … as long as they win.
Exactly as long as they win.
The experiment hasn’t proven succesful (yet) and to what point do you sacrifice acquiring the best talent available to you, for marketing goals?
I think it’s great that your wife is into basketball cause of Barg’s but if we don’t win she will be as grizzly and disgruntled as the rest of us. lol
Guys, Colangelo just traded a bum for a bum with upside. Solid trade for the future. However, we still need a starting shooting guard who can, you know, play defense and rebound. Not sure if you guys forgot about those two aspects of the game, but they’re pretty damn important if you want to be competitive.
His name is Antoine Wright (D, not rebounding – you’ll have a hard time find a really great rebounding 2 guard that’s not expensive).
Does this mean we can sign and trade Delfino?
What about Kleiza? Are we still interested in getting him, too?
The Delfino and Kleiza situations haven’t changed from a financial standpoint. We can still can sign Delfino to approx 5M and the max we could offer Kleiza would have to be what’s left of the MLE which is approximately $1.4M.
The deeper question is whether Colangelo feels he’s done enough at the SF and whether he should fill that final roster spot with a big instead.
The Ideal solution for Colangelo is to find some one who can score, rebound, and play defense at the 3 and 4 @ $1.4mil or by trade, not an easy task, but not impossible for the legomaster.
I think we definitely need a 4 or a 5 now. We are guard heavy all of a sudden. Mikki Moore maybe? I know his cousin personally and have Mikki a couple of times. He is a good guy.
EURO-RAPTORS:
Jose >> Belinelli >> Hedo >> Bargs >> Rasho
USian-RAPTORS:
Jack >> DeDe >> Antoine >> Reggie >> Bosh
I LIKE IT …. GO FOR IT, TRIANO …!!!!!!!!!!
Just think of it …. a clamp-down USian defensive team and a Euro offensive scoring machine …. I like it …. honk honk !!!!
…. or Mix’n Match :::
Jose >> DeDe >> Hedo >> Reggie >> Rasho ……Nah
Jack >> Belinelli >> Antoine >> Bargs >> Bosh ….Yah
Honk honk …..
Whats a USian?
USian has to be the word of the day
Don’t encourage him.
I hope you are not being sarcastic. That actually is a nicely balanced line up.
Oreo cookie FTW
Yeah, what is USian? Is this another word you’re going to use in every single post now, just like you did for Ratpors. tribal-honking and intelligence-wise?
My guess is half US, half Ian? Whatever the fuck Ian is.
I think he meant US-ian like Canadian, or hmmmmmm AMERICAN!
… “intelligence-wise” ..??!!! .. LOL
… or did you mean “basketball-wise” (per Smitch) ..??!!!
… neither of which can be applied to the Moronto Ratpors … LOL
… USians a guys who are born in USia …!!!!
… and Euros are better’n Loonies …!!!!
i think craptors is more appropriate….addresses the mediocrity
From a Raptors braniac: (props to Jay W.)
His theory on how/why we did this deal.
We got George from Dallas. Dallas’ GM is Donnie Nelson. Donnie Nelson is Don Nelson’s son. Don Nelson coaches Golden State. Therefore, I say this was an original part of the Marion trade, with Donnie pulling a favour from his Dad to get BC to do the deal. They just had to wait this long so no one would ask any questions. Also BC threatened to have the whole Nelson family ‘go away for a while’.
lol damn broken-noses
this is a great day for Raptors fans everywhere! Marco will be a solid player for many years to come and will fit in wonderfully with this roster!
we wanted him last year but he still had value to the warriors. now he has none but will look good on this team.
great job by BC on this new roster.
Seems like we are getting all the guys we wanted before finally… BC wanted Hedo in PHX, he got Hedo here, J. Jack was coveted by fans and by his ole roommate Bosh, Evans was wanted by fans a couple of years ago, Belinelli also was coveted by the front office, Bargs and the fans, and Rasho wanted to be in T.O. all along and we wanted him back. Can you feel the love? Can you say instant chemistry? Can you say dark horse team to win a lot of games this season? GO RAPTORS!!!!!!
What the fangula, fanculo are you all saying on my defense? Dan Nelson taught me to defend that way, so it was not my fault.
Now I’m relieved that I’ll have Jay Triano & Iavaroni as coaches.
LOL Its DON Nelson you F.O.B.!
BC should trade Roko or Douby for a draft pick and then sign Pops and maybe Delfino or Kleiza
WICKED!! Love the trade!
I say we resign Joey G. with the remaining money we have…which is approx 1.4m according to Arse above..
Trade Ukic for a PF. Since B.C. is on a roll he ll probably unload ukic and find room to add POPS
Calderon/Jack/Banks
DeRozen/Bellinelli/Douby
Turk/Wright/Graham
Bosh/Evans/POPS
Bargs/Rasho/O’Bryant
I agree witjh shats on not getting too excited! He is not a proven bet, let him first come and show what he has, specially on defense!
Welcome to Toronto Marco. Lets dat 4th seed. See u in training camp
i think he is gunna be alot like kapono and the way we used him, so i guess thats better than george
You mean the way we wanted to use Kapono. Remember that Marco is coming from a shot happy/addicted team in GS so dont think he will magicly become a shoot-o-fobe like Kapono.
Watching Colangelo pull off all these smooth moves this summer makes me wonder if the JO trade was executed solely to sabbotage Sam Mitchell.
Hahahah…that’s funny. I think he was banking on JO being healthy and him and Bosh forming a formidable frontline. Didn’t factor in the help they’d need to provide the guards on every possession because of dribble penetration. It goes back to not having insurance for Calderon last year, the PG position threw everything off for us and made everyone look bad.
D begins at the point of attack
hmmmmmmmmm. lol
looking at the bench last year, you could be correct sir.
Great article man, one question. Since we need a big, does this bring talks of Pops?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/27/SPIG14VTS0.DTL
marco will make you tools eat your words.
I wanted to trade for Belinelli, and said so on this blog, even came up with a trade way. I viewed Belinelli like a cheap Kapono. He is also the dude in offense who spots up in the corner for the 3 point shot (like parker used to do last year). He’s supposed to play better defense than Kapono, so it would be an upgrade from last year, and there are some situations where you want your SG to be able to shoot the 3.
Imagine this Euro lineup
C–Bargnani (40+ from 3)
pf–Bosh
SF–Hedo (38% from 3)
SG–Belinelli (40+ from 3)
pg–jose (40+ fom 3)
Kick the ball in to bosh, draw the double team (or bosh beats his man one-on-one; earn your max contract), kick the ball out to whomever is open for 3 (all those people should be 50% 3 point shooters if they are open). Only have to deal with one big for the rebound, and you can’t be doubled by the other big, because he is out with bargnani in 3 point land. Defensive liability (who exactly rebounds?), I agree, but a lot of fun to watch, and sometimes offensive matters matter than defense. Sounds like phoenix to me.
I have a way for our Euro players to take advantage of their popularity in our city, and it would actually draw North American players to want to play in Toronto.
People in the city don’t understand that Shayne Corson is the most successful athlete in recent history in a way that other athletes respect. He made the most money in business (remember his company with Darcey Tucker that made sports apparel? It went public and got bought out). That is something Toronto has (business people who will help you because you are a nice sports figure). I was offered below-cost shares in the company at an early stage, and the managing owners wanted me to come work for them, so I know a little about it.
My plan is for Toronto international basketball players to be given ownership of a nightclub. The largest club-owners in this city is the Liberty Group. I am preparing a proposal for my real job (I am a small-business consultant) to interact with them. Anyhow, the gist is that players get a 50% share of one of the slower nightclubs. For example, Hedo could get 50% of Velvet Underground. Bargnani and Belinelli could split 50% of the Phoenix (keep in mind the owners of the Liberty Group are Italian). That’s how you get around the cap.
Imagine you are making 1.9 million. Say Rasho. But you got part of a real business, adding a million to your income. Totally legal. This isn’t college. I think the Slovenian community would go to Rasho’s restaurant/nightclub. Only, you make money for the rest of your life if you live here.
Small world, but the business partners of Corson made furniture for the Liberty Group, which is how they know the owners very well. I bought furniture from them, which is how they came to know me. They would and will be recommending me to the Liberty Group, and I will bring up this idea if I meet the Donato brothers.
I was going to implement this basic plan a couple of years ago. Players hang out in Yorkville. (I actually sat right beside Jay Triano at the bar of Opus–he goes all the time–and he is a REALLY nice humble modest guy from listening to him interact with the bartender). Anyhow, one of my bartenders knew a whole bunch of basketball players; she was rather attractive but the big thing was she was the nicest girl (rare combination). (she called him “J”, not T.J Ford, and she sat in his playoff tickets). I could have met them any time I wanted, told them I wanted to help them make money, and unlike any other charlatan they meet with same pitch, I have the reference from Shayne Corson who actually did make millions.
I know Pat who owns the Velvet ( I worked for him for years). He ain’t gonna sell shit to no NBA players. He has majority of the Velvet now from Liberty and if he was to sell any of it to someone from the NBA it would be Allen Iverson only, his favorite player. (I know not the best person to go into business with.) Your idea is kinda silly, since players are so transient these days with free agency and trades. Maybe when they retire and settle down in one place that would be better. I would laugh if Hedo owned half the Velvet! (he better not show up on fetish nite…) I don’t think Liberty overall needs the help of your idea anyway. They have enough problems dealing with their owners to not have to worry about some high paid athletes inputs.
Another thing we could do is promise them sexual favours with some of the Rail’s finest. I remember luring Antonio Davis and Patrick Ewing into an Atlanta nightclub back in the day. Marcus Camby was there too…with twins, I believe.
Ime Udoka for the vet minimum. Thoughts?
I like Udoka’s array skills AND he’s a good character guy too.
The Pacers signed Solomon Jones. I wouldn’t have minded us signing him either. Good rebounder and defender. Anyone know why we might not have targeted him?
Raptors hire Brian Colangelo
who then hires Maurizio Gheradini
they then draft Andrea Bargnani
and hire Jay Triano as coach
as well as add Marc Iavoroni
now Belinelli
Can we rename the team the Toronto Wopters?
Honestly, I do love this trade, which now works out to J O’Neal, Hump, Jawai and a conditional first rounder for Hedo, Wright, Belinelli, Carcass Banks and 3 million bucks. I would’ve signed up to that any day of the week.
delfino is gone. it seems that BC doesn’t fuck around for too long during the negotiating process. He will replace you as an option fast… I think we should re-sign pops, to add that dynamic of “energy guy”.
What a great trade BC has pulled off. It’s a no-lose situation, and we can always use him as a potential trading chip partway through the season if we are looking to make a trade. We don’t have to bring him back next season, but we can at a relatively low cost.
Love it, love it, love it!!!!!
Wow, you guys really know ur ***.
I think in these dire economic times, we should get Sun from the lakers. C’mon u know POB is there to appease the crowd, and what is the rest of Toronto made up of? Thats right! Chinese and Italians.
Sun = more money for the raps = better team = championships!
Did you really need to respond to the same person 6 times in 6 different places with the same link? Really?
Dude, we see this link all over the place.
Its just one article about a few games, it proves nothing. A more realistic aproach would be to check 82games.com or a wider saple of data.
Are you saying that this proves that GSW should have won defensive team of the decade?
Here is another quote from the article “We played great defense the last three or four minutes.”
3-4 minutes of defence, case closed! GSW will grind you.
82games.com reports Belinelli giving up a league average PER of 15.0 to opposing SG’s. Thats a league average number, which suggests average defense.