Don’t call me Joey 2.0
Pardon the lame title, but I couldn’t help myself. Reading through Blake’s latest and greatest, he hit the nail on the head: we don’t need DeRozan to be a superstar this coming season. Don’t get me wrong, that would be nice if he came through like VC did in his rookie year and drop 20 a night, but we have enough scorers on this team that D-Squared doesn’t have to kill it from game 1. Enter Antoine Wright, one of the pieces we got in the Hedo trade.
He instantly steps into the starting shooting guard role for the Raptors. He may not log 30+ minutes a night (never played more then 24 a night), but he is one of two players we have at the shooting guard who will be expected to pick up where Anthony Parker left off (I have zero expectations of Douby…big donut). What do we really know about the kid though? I turned to a couple TrueHoop brothers in hopes of getting a bloggers opinion of Antoine…
Sebastian Pruiti (@NetsRScorching) of Nets are Scorching:
Antoine Wright came into New Jersey with some big expectations. As the #15 pick overall, he was a billed as a “do it all player” but he never really performed up to expectations as a Net. A great swingman over at Texas A&M, Wright had (and still has) the size and the athleticism to play either the two or the three spot. He makes enough threes that it is a threat, but he can put the ball on the floor as well.
In my opinion, Antoine’s biggest problem in New Jersey was the fact that he was playing behind two great players in Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter. The fact that he came in with real high expectations didn’t help the situation. Wright was only on the court 9.5 MPG his rookie season, and when he was out there he didn’t play well at all. Personally, I think this hurt him a lot mentally, and it seemed like he checked out from that season forward. Even as he saw his minutes rise each year as a Net, he never really had a breakout game/season during his time here. With that brought a lot of boos and a lot of animosity. So when the Nets traded him, I wasn’t completely surprised. I didn’t really follow him during his time in Dallas, but looking at his numbers, it seems that his play was similar to how he was playing when he left NJ. Meaning he is improving slightly, but not enough to warrant a significant rise in minutes.
Sorry to paint such a bleak picture, but it would be foolish not to describe his time in NJ as a failure. It isn’t all bad though, he is still very young (turning 25 some time next year), and I think going to a team where he wasn’t the 15th pick or a part of the Devin Harris trade will really help. Plus, the skills are all there, he just has to put it all together, and it isn’t like he is getting worse, he is in fact improving (His FT%, 3PT%, and Scoring has gone up every year in the league except one). It is just not at the rate you would expect a lottery pick to. I thought it would take a year or two for him to develop into a serviceable 6th man, but it just didn’t happen. Realistically that is the best that Raptor fans can hope for out of him next year. Unless he starts the year playing out of his mind, he will be a guy you can put in to create a size mismatch or to hit a three or two. That is about it.
Err…ok, he had high expectations getting drafted by Jersey and didn’t get comfortable playing behind VC and RJ. Maybe his time in Dallas will be more positive….
Rob Mahoney (@RobMahoney) of The Two Man Game:
Mark my words: Antoine Wright will be relatively unloved and under-appreciated. Some will be eager to criticize his merely average shooting stroke, but Wright works hard on both ends and is improving as a scorer. That’s not necessarily ideal for a starting shooting guard (he was the de jure starter for the Mavs last season, although Jason Terry logged a majority of the minutes), but it can make Wright enticing as a rotation player.
I think the key with Wright is understanding his limits. Don’t expect a high-volume scorer, don’t expect an impressive arsenal, and don’t expect Bruce Bowen. Wright will be an interesting contrast with an athletic, instinctive scorer like DeMar DeRozan, but it’s important that Wright be viewed with that lens; Wright’s not a replacement or substitute for DeRozan, but a different look with less of an innate feel for the game. Antoine’s athleticism is decidedly average by NBA standards, but rather than fall by the wayside as so many similar players have, Wright may have carved out a niche for himself with his work on the defensive end. He is by no means an elite NBA defender (try above average), but I find Antoine’s high-energy approach endearing. He stays with his man, contests shots, and generally works in the “doing the little things” mold to contribute in the most subtle of ways. Admittedly, Wright’s not always super-effective in that regard, but his defensive efforts and expanding offensive game do give him some value on the floor.
Wright is a markedly better spot-up shooter than he was when he first came to Dallas, and he’s also shown to be a decent slasher. But Wright’s still shaping his own offensive abilities, and for better or worse he is both evolving and malleable. Or offensively raw and currently unspectacular. Y’know, depending on which side of the bed you woke up on this morning.
Sound like anyone we know? Cough…Joey Graham…Cough… Actually, Wright was drafted one spot ahead of Joey in 2005. Fortunately for us, this is where comparisons with Graham end. Where Joey was a physically gifted player with all the tools (except a brain/motivation) to excel at the NBA level, Wright is an energy guy who has created a niche for himself with his defensive ability and spot up shooting.
I would venture that expectations are much lower for Wright then in years past for a couple reasons:
- He was a throw in on the Turkoglu trade
- We drafted a promising young’n at the shooting guard position who we all know will be the starting SG by mid-year and the SG of the future
- He is not expected to put up copious amounts of points on the board (we have enough scoring)
- Toronto fans appreciate energy players who play tough defense, and since Humphries and Pops are gone…
What does concern me is productivity:
PER:
Parker – 12.16
Wright – 8.63
Production per 36min:
It’s not necessarily the points that concerns me, he is improving in that department, but the kid is 6″7 and grabs 2.4 rebounds per 36minutes. Considering he wont be playing more then 24mins, he will be contributing about 1.6rebs/game. For a team that struggles to rebound, this is not good news. Considering Calderon only grabs about 3 per 36mins, we can expect our starting backcourt to grab just 4.6rebs/game. What compounds that is that Bargnani wont be grabbing much more (6.1), so we have 3 positions on the floor that contribute about 10.5rebs/game. Add in Bosh and Turkoglu (5.2) and Bosh (9.5), and our starters grab 25.2rebs/game. Looks like we will be struggling to grab boards again…that’s another article.
Back to Antoine; he is 9 years younger and 1-inch taller then Parker. If he can play lock-downish defense on the perimeter, grab some boards, knock down the occasional three/jumper and take it to the rack whenever a lane opens up … that is all we can hope for. If he can avoid the mistakes Moon made, and swing the ball on the perimeter and not grin idiotically and incessantly, he will be fine. Not asking for great, just don’t want to see bad.
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“the kid is 6?7 and grabs 2.4 rebounds per 36minutes…. this is not good news.”
There was talk about Wrights rebounding a few days ago… and I mentioned it then… you have to look who was on the floor with him :
1) Dampier 7.1 RBs in 23 mins
2) Nowitski 8.4 RBs in 37 mins
3) Howard 5.1 RBs in 32 mins
4) Kidd 6.2 RBs in 36 mins
he wasn’t on the floor with the scrubs, he was on with the starters who are all good rebounders. There are only so many boards to go around. In NJ during his second year (when he actually got some floor time) he averaged 5.6 RBs per 36.
As for our expectations of him I think you are right, not having high expectations of him will likely be exactly what he needs. If he is a work horse and tries hard… we’ll cheer him. Sometimes being appreciated is all a player needs.
Great comment, love the stats you bought up
Great research
Very good point, but lets look at Parkers stats vs the rest of the raptor starters over the last 10 games of the year:
Bargnani 4.8rebs
Bosh 12.5
Marion 9.1
Caldeorn 2.4
That is 28.8rebs for those 4 compared to 26.3 for dallas’ 4.
On top of that, Parker grabbed 3.6rebs compared to 2.1 for wright. mind you i’m not comparing apples to apples, the raptor sample was 10 games, but i wanted to highlight that with marion the raptor starters had comparable rebounders then the mavs.
I mentioned this the other day. Wright is a full 40 spots lower on the Shooting Guards chart than parking was in rbs/48.
He’s a terrible rebounder, all excuses aside. You can pull down 2 rebounds a game purely by accident.
Slightly off topic, but related: I know the Raptors don’t really have “room” to bring in Oakley as a full time assistant, but why not as a consultant? Especially during training camp
He can pound the guys with rebounding drills during the week. Couldn’t hurt.
Oak has his eye on NYC, I think it was linked in a previous Morning coffee
Season ORB% DRB% TRB%
2005-06 2.5 7.1 4.8
2006-07 4.0 14.1 9.1
2007-08 3.8 10.0 6.9
2008-09 2.3 7.7 5.0
If Wright can reproduce his 06-07 performance on the glass, that’s the best we can hope for.
Good article. Nice job including the New Jersey and Dallas perspectives. After reading your piece, I still think Delfino is the best solution as the first wing of the bench (assuming DeRozan starts). Delfino is a much better rebounder, which is what this team needs. I think Wright’s role will end up being the second wing player off the bench.
Great research article!
All we need from our starting 2-guard is great perimeter defence and opportunistic scorer who doesn’t demand double digit FGA per game.
Antoine Wright is alot like Raja Bell – and that’s exactly what we need next year.
Plus, the fact Mavs Head Coach Carlisle told BC that he LOVED Wright and that we’ll love him too is all I needed to know to jump on his bandwagon before ever seeing him suit up for our team.
can we please sign Carlos Delfino already. give him his 1 year 5 mill and let him go prove he is worth it. and if he isnt trade him half way thru the season to a team looking for a expiring contract.
Why would we trade him for an expiring contract when he would already be an expiring contract.
Haha..What type of expiring contrat are you thinking we should be trading for, considering Delfino’s contract would also be expiring?
what he said if you guys had read, was to trade him to a team LOOKING for an expiring contract…not trade him FOR an expiring contract…
Yup. 5M is good for him if its a one year deal but damned if I’m going to invest that much money into him over multiple years. Also remember that we want to try to be under the cap next summer so we’re not restricted to just using the MLE. Having Delfino’s 5M on for another season could prevent a FA signing.
+ 1
Carlos said “to a team LOOKING FOR a expiring contract” not “FOR a expiring contract”.
I think he would want alot more than 5 Mill if it is only for 1 year . He was asking for 5 when the deal was suppose to be multi year.
R2 D2 (Rozen Raptor De De)
More like R2 D2 = Raptor Rookie Demar DeRozan
BC said on Prime Time Sports Wright is a tough guy…he doesn’t let players push him OR his teammates around….thats something we desperately needed and was addressed.
Did you see the playoffs this year? Every series was extremely physical
3 of our starters are pretty soft: Bosh, Bargnani & Jose
Now we have: Wright, Reggie, and Jack, they don’t take shit.
You guys are right, Wright will probably start to set the tone, then Dreo will log some heavy minutes.
ya, ive felt this has been an issue for too long. The raptors havnt had a gansta in a long time. We have been the whitest team in the league for a long time. And dont get me wrong, I loved it, but we didnt have any of that get in your face attitude or ability to scare the other team from driving into the lane.
I mean come on, Bosh as a tough guy…haha i just laugh, and theres no way i see him being a great leader. he’s a flake who would be a good addition to a championship team. but he will never be THE piece of a champ team. bosh is just a lanky forward who cant push people around under the basket. there isnt really a comparison for bosh in the league. I would say similar to KG on the offensive side, but bosh is not good on defense.
now that we have evans, we have some gansta attitude ill love to watch next year. I think i read somewhere that bosh hated playing against Evans because he scared bosh on the court!! Well thats my rant of the week. like my psychiatrist says, feels good to share!!
PS. i bet you can tell im no fan of bosh. havnt been for years. Cheers
Why can’t Bosh develop into a tough player? Was KG tough from jump? I’m not even sure what your definition of tough is.
white = non-tough. So i guess your reference is black = toughness.
you should set another appointment with your psychiatrist. lol
Until you can tell the future the jury is out on what role CB will have on a championship type team but i’m sure it will be more than a “flake” if he does get that opportunity on the future.
Your bias towards him is evident but if you think Evans is the saviour of this team cause of his ‘gangsta’ attitude you’re kidding yourself. Bosh never said he was scared of Evans either.
Another pseudo-Raps (or Leaf turned Raps fan) fan lookig to drive talent out of the city. You love mediocrity don’t you?
Love the post though. quite entertaining!
I’d say that Bosh could definetely improve his ‘toughness’ (ie. size), and it looks like he has if you’ve seen pictures of him this summer. And you are right, when KG came into the league he was an ackward looking toothpick (much like Bosh). Difference is it took KG 2 years to bulk up…. we are still looking for Bosh to do it after 5.
Now whether Bosh has that ‘killer mentality’ is still to be seen.
kg was tough in highschool…he was an animal..bosh never was or will be like that.
an I am a Bosh fan by the way.
I didnt mean to come off saying black = tough and white = wuss…My definition of tough is playing hard defensivly, being able to push people around, and being able to pull off a scowl!! bosh’s scowl is just funny (I saw him looking at the bigscreen as he scowled just to admire it!!) my toughness def is screwed but its late and thats all i got.
KG was skinny coming out, but you cant deny his intensity or toughness in the paint. he will fight for the ball and i just dont see bosh having that tough mojo going for him. he may not be the biggest, but he has goot footwork and can box out better than bosh.
Evans is definitly not the savior of our team. hes just a decent backup big man. All i meant to say is that he will bring some intensity and strong presence in the pain.
And the answer to this franchise is not to bring bosh back at max money. In my opinion, bosh shouldnt be the centerpiece of a franchise. Bosh is a great player, just an allstar…not a superstar. and if we were to spend all that money on him, we would have a hard time signing another allstar to play in toronto. if you look at the best teams out there, they all have 2+ allstars on their team. We really just have to start getting guys yonge who will develop into their prime and as such we will have them at cheaper contract. Instead of doing what we are doing and siging players at their prime (turk) to big long term deals. I love turk but he wont get any better and after another 2-3 years in the league, he will start slowing down considerably.
Except here’s the problem, and this isn’t directly solely at you, so I hope you don’t take this the wrong way. Bosh is already a bonafide all-star. Our definition of max player may differ, and he might or might not be a franchise cornerstone, but he is without doubt one of the top big men in the league, correct? With that said, there are three scenarios:
1) Team re-signs Bosh. There’s no way Bosh (or anyone else) would take a pay decrease ($13-14 mil), so he’ll receive at a minimum $16.5-17 mil for the first year of his new deal ($16.5 would be a 5% raise from this year). With the cap slated to drop to $50-53 mil for 2010-2011, any new deal he signs will effectively be for max money. If you’re unwilling to pay him “max money”, then you’re basically saying you’re not resigning Bosh no matter what.
2) Team lets Bosh walk. Not counting Belinelli (if we decide to retain him next season), we will be about $8 mil under the 2010-2011 salary cap if it ends up being $53 mil (less of course, if the cap ends up lower). That is if we don’t re-sign anyone who expires, leaving us with a roster size of 8. This is by far the worst option, since $8 mil will not be enough to get anyone even close to Bosh’s caliber, let alone another all-star.
3) Team trades Bosh for a good young player, a rotation player and a draft pick. Assuming the numbers work (and I know they don’t), so you end up with something like Aldridge and Outlaw and a pick. Bosh being a pretty good player, decidedly, probably won’t hurt Portland’s playoff chances, leaving us with a non-lottery pick, and even with a lottery pick, you should never count your eggs before they hatch. In Aldridge, we have someone good but not as good as Bosh (or else the other team wouldn’t have a reason to make the trade). At best, maybe one day he’ll be as good as Bosh (not likely). Outlaw is promising, but he is still definitely not as good as Bosh. Given that we’re still over the cap, or close enough to the cap that we won’t be signing any significant free agents, we’ve basically turned a very good player into a bunch of good or potentially good players. Is this really a better situation than having one very good player and trying to build around him via smart trades and drafting?
I think the most important thing we can hope for with Wright is that he’s a heady player. It’s kind of ironic that a guy like the much maligned Jamario Moon would be perfect for the role that Wright will likely be asked to fill, the difference this time around being that never before has Toronto had 4 other players that can each put in 20 points in a given night if the matchup favours them. Kind of like in Cleveland. With 4 other guys like that on the court, Moon won’t shoot, he won’t have to. He’ll just do what he does best, and hit the occasional wide open 3. But what will always come back to bite you in the ass with Moon is that one play in crunch time where he loses his head, blows an assignment and gets burned. And that’s what I hope Wright brings – the ability to execute a defensive assignment. If he can do that, I’m happy.
Great article, nice research.
It’s going to be very interesting how the 2-guard minutes are distributed next season. With DeRozan, Wright, Delfino (potentially), and Jack, somebody is going to be unhappy. Should make for a competitive training camp.
As for Wright – if he can do for us what he did for Dallas last year, in limited minutes, I’m happy. It’s not like we’re paying him to be a star.
I agree, his toughness and skill set is perfect for his salary.
Remember, it’s not those 4 guys at the 2, its Turk and those 4 guys at the 2 and 3.
Plus with a few of Turk’s minutes potentially sliding over to the 4 for a little bit of small-ball, even more minutes open up at the 3.
We’ll say: Turk: 30 minutes (SF), 5 minutes (PF)
Scenario A) Derozan is only ready for ~15 minutes a night.
Jack: 18 (PG), 11 (SG) = 29
Derozan: 15 (SG) = 15
Delfino: 12 (SG), 8 (SF) = 20
Wright: 10 (SG), 10 (SF) = 20
Lots of minutes to go around.
Scenario B) Derozan breaks out fast (unlikely, but hey a guy can hope), can handle 30 minutes a game.
Jack: 18 (PG), 11 (SG) = 29
Derozan: 30 (SG) = 30
Delfino: 7 (SG), 18 (SF) = 25
Wright: 0 (SG), 0 (SF) = 0
In this case we’ve got a star in Derozan, so who cares if Wright rots on the bench? (or Delfino, based on your preference).
I think it will be closer to scenario a. DeRozan should be in the 15-20min a game place.
I think you can play either DeRozan or Wright at the 3 as well – we actually have a bigger hole there. They may even see time together – DD proving more on the offensive end, while Wright guards the opposing team’s best wing. You can also have Jack at the 2 and DeRozan/Wright at the 3 against smaller lineups.
If the raps have high hopes for this season and are looking to push for 4th seed and home court advantage I urge you to look at the starting line up in the east specially the power houses and then tell me Wright is a starter in a playoff team that wants to go to the second round minimum. BC has done well no doubt but after such an overhaul of the roster, it will be a shame to see the job is unfinished.We need Carlos more then average folks think we do. He brings a variety of things to the table including perimeter D and he keeps the opposing tams defense honest as well. No1 can leave him alone on offense or dare him to shoot the open jumper and I have seen him go towards the rim or pull up for a jumper We need the versatile player that he is. I dont mean to make him sound like an All Star but he is a solid player and if people can give Marcus Banks Money.. Then Delifino sure deserves it hahahaj
I really don’t think Delfino is the answer either. I don’t mind bringing him in for a year at $4-5mil, but not a multi-year deal at that. That is just too much money for what does and is.
He was a starter on Dallas, who went to the second round last year…
And in the stacked West too…
yeah I agree… all 5 starters don’t need to be stars…. it is just as important (if not more) to have a good 6th man coming off the bench. Its just a matter of the 5th man (ie. Wright in this discussion) playing his role. There are plenty of teams that have starters who only play 15-20 min a game and then the 6th man finishes both halves of the games.
I also agree with Raps Fan in that Delfino isn’t the answer… its not that he is the best FA available… just the best that the Raps can afford.
Simply evaluating teams based on the individual talent of their starting 5 is a bit of a flawed analysis. It is pretty common for a team to have a 5th starter that isn’t that teams 5th best individual talent. I think it is a good idea to have the 5th starter be a player that does a good job filling a hole that the other 4 starters create. A lot of teams utilize this philosophy very successfully. Spurs. Mavs. Nuggets. etc.
In the Raptors case for next season, this hole looks to me like it would be perimeter defense. If Wright starts, and provides good perimeter defense, he would be doing a great job in the starting role. Also, I would expect that much like his role when he was starting in Dallas, he would not be the SG that logs the most minutes per game.
great point
Really liked the article…
I think antoine wright is going to be fine. I appreciate a player who understands their limitations and doesnt take shots away from better offensive players.
I dont know whether he is gonna start, come off the bench, play the two, or play the three…but what I do know is that in whatever capacity, we are going to need his toughness. He proved in Dallas 2nd round…western conf that he belonged on the floor. I think he will have no problem doing that here.
There is certainly a questionmark at that backup 3 spot….which is why we should sign another shooting guard who only looks out for himself….delfino No but seriously…
How did we drop the ball w matt barnes?
Raps couldn’t afford Barnes.
Jack took up most of the mid-level exception so there wouldn’t be enough to sign Barnes. We can sign Delfino for more because we have his Bird rights.
Did you see how much Barnes signed for in Orlando?
Raps could easily have matched that.
Maybe he wanted to go there to win, versus come to Toronto. The minutes for him aren’t exactly guaranteed here anymore than in Orlando. So why not go to the defending eastern conference champs?
I found this on Yahoo concerning the Okafor/chandler trade…check out the last sentence:
Posted by T Stizzz Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:51 pm EDT Report Abuse
“Charlotte is a great city to have a team in. The support for the panthers and the hornets back when larry alonzo and mugsey use to run things was unmatched. We were leaders in attendance. Charlotte fans are just constantly screwed by cheap owners who do bad moves. While I am not a fan of okafor he is a lot better than chandler. Hopefully if bob johnson sells the team we can get a gm the caliber of colangelo or donnie walsh”
Colangelo is a G*d compared to Jordan & Co in Charlotte.
Metrics. Say it with me. His TRB% last season was 5.0. That is not very good and starting him would give us the worst rebounding starting lineup in the league by far.
And this is why Delfino is so essential. Or BC could have just waited on Marion and this disaster scenario could have been avoided entirely.
what disaster scenerio!!????
I’m sure he means rebounding
Not being a great rebounding team isn’t the end of the world.
Agreed, you just have to make up for it in other ways. A combination of great offense and great defense can easily make up for a lack of rebounding.
But Calderon, Bosh, Bargnani, and Turkoglu are all bad defenders and dont mesh well offensively:\.
Until we see them in action I wouldn’t predict that they won’t mesh offensively. Triano will have a plan for them that will take advantage of above average passing and excellent shooting skills. Considering Bargnani is improving his inside game, Bosh is getting to the line more each season and we have added a clutch shooter in Hedo I doubt if offense will be a problem.
Justin: Until they play a game together, how do you know they won’t mesh together offensively???
Am just saying Wrights rebounding would not be an issue if we forget Delfino and get Pops. Pops and Reggie Evans will dominate the defensive glass. But its clear that Colangelo is only interested in Europeans or mediocre wing players.
There’s only so many minutes to go around at the 4 and 5. Andrea and Turkoglu are guaranteed atleast 35 minutes per game. So long as they’re playing together, we’re going to be at a HUGE disadvantage on the glass, especially offensively. You can’t play Pops or Evans in the starting lineup. You can however plug Delfino in there and give the starters a passing chance to break even on the boards.
Pops IS European and could be kinda viewed as a less than mediocre wing player, (when he plays the 3). I like Pops too, but if we can’t get him back, oh well. I am sure that BC would drop one of the existing guys and get Pops if it made sense.
the hawks should re-sign williams, and trade him to us for P.O.B, banks and ukic………………..
a man can dream right :(
That would be a felony theft by Colangelo, lol.
hey in this league anything is possible, thats kinda like how we got raped for vince, hey are we tryin to win here or what. right now theres a slim (15%) chance we could get to the second round this year, and addin him would increase that in a hurry
Was Wright the one who got called on that chippy foul vs. carmelo in the dying seconds of game 3 or 4 in dallas, which lost them the game? if so, that is not bad that we got a player that is out there during crucial points of high pressure games. if he wasn’t that player, then who was it?
actually, they were trying to intentionally foul ‘melo, which wright did, but it wasn’t a hard enough foul, it wasn’t called, and ‘melo got off (& made) the 3. apparently, the situation wasn’t obvious enough to the refs (that the mavs would be trying to foul early)…generally agreed that the ref blew it, but also that wright should have fouled harder, and that the mavs coaches should have made it clear to the refs what they were intending to do.
unless i’m thinking of a different situation…
true
Yea but to be honest you can’t blame Wright on the play he did foul. And who knows maybe if he took Melo’s head off he could of gotten a flagrant.
Yeah the refs were crazy inconsistent at the beginning of the playoffs last season. They cleaned it up towards the end but the 1st two rounds were ridiculous. So many terrible calls…
I stand corrected, perhaps all 5 starters dont have to be stars, thats evaluation is correct however I think Delfino is going to be an important signing if we get him, the bench strength that we need will get accomplished with this signing, for the right price if we sign him for three years with a team option for the 4th it shouldn’t be so bad. Although next year we will have alot of free agents available and based on cap, we will get deal on the market, the question is, if the Raps are desperate to keep CB4, do they want to wait till next year to fire all their guns?
I love Bosh to death but I think we need to go a different direction, get 2 very good 10 mill per year players then give him a max contract. He is a very good player but not a franchise player. It might hurt alot of people but only legit franchise guy we had was Air Canada Carter.
what kind of player are you expecting for $10 million a year? That equates to 2 Turkalugu’s or 2 Bargniani’s and if thats the basis of not keeping Bosh they will end up being worse off in the long run.
If they don’t keep Bosh or he leaves unless you can replace him with better talent or better yet a better player, they won’t be a better squad. More players don’t necessarily equaate to more talent or better team results. Thats why when teams usually trade their best player for a collection of other players (i.e. carter) the team that usually gave up the best player tend to lose the deal when all is said and done.
Bosh is 25 and if he improves on what he’s done over the last 4-5 years who knows how good he’ll be and with better players around him, he’s going to get better.
What do you think it feels like to play with guys no where near your talent level? How can you stay motivated under those conditions? Don’t give up on CB just yet.
I’m confident that Wright can fill the niche that was previously occupied by Moon, Garbo, JYD etc and cover up some of the weaknesses of our other starters, whether it be off the bench or starting all that matters is minutes, and those will likely be very consistant for him.
I see where you are coming from as well, he has alot of talentand he will be going in his prime but Iam sorry he is not a MAX CONTRACT material, he is also not a player who has ever come with the goods when the game is on the line, only once a few years back he shot a 3 point over Webber to win the game, thats the only time it comes to my recollection when he was money on thwe final shot of the game, if you are getting money on the max deal then its your job to atleast get 3 out of 8 shots on the buzzer, if you cant then you are a choker, you are no different from a Shareef Abdul Rahim.
10 million is fairly decent, you can get alot of people for that next year, maybe you can get someone for 13 million and then give someone else 7.Sleepz point made sense about Bosh however Bosh is very good not franchise guy, if you think over the years he can develop into that then I guess nothing is written in stone but I wouldn’t pay as much Lebron or Wade will be getting paid on their max contract, cause he is no Lebron nor Wade and both previously had below average teams, specially Wade, now HE IS WHAT YOU CALL A FRANCHISE GUY! Bosh is like a Gasol, he is a side kick not the main guy.Gasol took Memphis to playoffs too, BUT THEY LOST IN THE 1ST ROUND,just like Raps did, with Bosh:)
Agreed.
Is Bosh a great player… yes.
Is Bosh a top-5 PF in the leage… yes.
Is Bosh a ‘the guy’ type player you build a team around and pay max money too… no way.
I would pay Bosh up to $15-17M a season, but not up towards $20-23M that max money would give him. In this new NBA, you need to have a dominant wing player (SF/SG) who can take over games and carry a team (ie: Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Roy, etc…) and play good D too.
If Bosh were to be teamed up with Lebron or Wade, similar to how Gasol is with Kobe, that team would instantly become a top contender.
I am a big fan of Bosh, but I am also a realist – I would rather trade Bosh for some proven players and top draft picks, instead of signing him to max money. With a team as deep as the Raps, if they could land a young replacement PF (ie: Aldridge) another rotation player and at least one lottery draft pick, I think they would be a better team in the long run. The worst-case scenario is that Bosh walks away after next season and the Raps get nothing in return…
It doesn’t matter what you would pay him. If teams in the league be they the Raps OR someone else are willing to pay Bosh MAX money then HE IS A MAX PLAYER!!!!!!!! All of these people who come on here and argue till they are blue in the face about Bosh being a max player fail to realize that their notion of a MAX player is based on their definition and NOT ON THE DEFINITION OF THE PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY TO SPEND. So for pete’s sake stop this stupid debate.
No kidding. At the end of the day Bosh is going to get Max money from somebody. If the Raps don’t want to give it to him then NY or someone will. So this endless debate on whether the Raps should or shouldn’t give it to him and whether he is or isn’t worth it is completely irrelevant. If they want to keep him that’s what the price will be.
Actually that is exactly what makes the question relevant…. should the Raps be willing to throw the money at Bosh just because another team wants to. If few if any were talking about Bosh’s worth until NY said they would pay him the max to get him.
So wrong.
First, you’re not going to get a team to come out on the record to say they will pay max to get a certain player. Have you heard of the NBA’s anti-tampering regulation? I think you’re confusing what NY has said with what fans, bloggers and sports commentators have said, but even if they did foolishly say what you think they said, it doesn’t mean other teams will follow suit and risk losing draft picks, money and potentially the ability to sign the player being tampered with.
Second, you’re forgetting that most teams won’t have the room to enter a bidding war for Bosh. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t jump at the possibility of having someone of Bosh’ caliber magically appear on their books for max money. That’s another reason why talk has centered around the Knicks, who only have about 25 mil in salary next season (assuming they retain Danilo), and them being the rumor magnet that they are, NYC and all.
Actually NY said they were saving cap space for 2 superstars. At a later date they said they were interested in Lebron, Wade, or Bosh. It may not have been as ‘open’ as that, but how do you call tampering 2 years prior to FA.
Secondly you are forgetting alot of teams have money coming available come 2010 and CAN enter a bidding war for Bosh. (and there are only so many superstars to go around.)
Finally, I’m not saying Bosh is or isn’t worth the max… what I’m saying is debating the issue is ALWAYS relevant. You still have to pay an individual that money, and thats money that could potentially be used somewhere else. Saying, oh just pay Bosh the max because someone else will and don’t talk about it is “so wrong.”
I was just wondering and I could be wrong here but can’t Wright play the 3 too. By the looks of the line up the three spot looks to be weakest. I was assuming that the 2 would be played mostly by Jack and DD and the 3 would be played by Hedo and Wright. Delfino (if he’s signed) would play 2/3 depending on match ups and in case of emergency he could play the 1.
Quick question,
When looking to assess how good a player is defensively, what are some advanced stats to look at.
I tried looking at defensive rating, but to me it doesn’t seem clear.
For example, Wright’s defensive rating was 111 last year (estimate of points given up/100 possessions) whereas Jose F’n groin-strain Calderon’s was 112. So going by this stat, Wright gives up roughly the same amount of points/100 possessions as Calderon.
Doesn’t seem like a good perimeter defender to me.
I’m not sold on wright. Too many statistics show that he is not a good defender (rebounding is a critical part of defense). His hollinger PER is 8.6, which is marginally better than marcus banks. He is also not a good 3 pt shooter (30%), yet he takes a lot of them, (3.5/game).
Assuming no delfino, I would get Marco Bellini and Brandon Wright from Golden State. Both are available. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12869359?nclick_check=1 . Bellini is a 3pt specialist, averaging 9 points a game in 21 minutes, also picking up almost a steal a game. Not a good rebounder, though. I think a 3pt sg who can stretch the defense would be a compliment to DD. Brandon Wright is the scoring, rebounding, never-takes-a-3 SF we have been looking for. He has just been squeezed out by the fact that Golden State has 5 SF. (They should trade maggette back to the clippers for Chris Kaman, especially if they are trading biedrins). Both are young and have cheap expiring contracts.
The trade that makes this possible, as per usual, involves memphis as a facilitaror. They have Hadaddi (C) who is on a 2 year deal, but they have Thabeet and Gasol. They are looking for a back-up pg http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jul/26/warrick-set-free-for-cap-not-ai/ . They also need a back-up SG and a back-up SF. As such, they could use roko ukic, antoine wright (who can play 2 or 3).
Golden State needs a 3rd C. I would like to give them patrick O’Bryant, but to make the numbers work cap-wise, Haddadi (who has potential, and if you know me, you would have thought I would have him end up in Toronto to add another international. But it didn’t work. I tried. We still got Bellini) goes to GS, and POB or Douby goes to Memphis.
Implications on the cap:
Toronto: about $200 000. Golden State: saves 2.5 million this year, adds a commitment of 1.4 million next year, of which 1 million would have gone to some player anyhow (additional cost 400 000 for a player who could turn into something) Memphis: costs 2.4 million this year (they have room)to fill 3 playing roster spots at the expense of a 3rd C, but saves 1.4 million next year.
This frees up a roster spot for Toronto, and if we trade POB, we can sign Pops with the 1.1 million trade exception we got for switching evans and kapono.
I still like trading marcus banks to the lakers for sasha vujacic and sun ye (the lakers get cap relief, and they are in luxury tax so the savings are doubled to over 6 million between the 2 years, and it would allow them to split the difference with odom. They were mad sun ye skipped summer league to play with the national team). I have NEVER heard of a plausible way to get rid of banks (vujacic also has a 2 year over-paid contract, but he is still useful). Solves our back-up SG problem, and he is fine to start. Sasha is a gym rat, as is DD. They would help each other improve. Sasha just had an off-year which looks all-star next to antoine wright.
You put alot of time and effort into your idea, however I think you should read your post again and think if that is actually a possibility. Why would GS even think of doing that? Or Memphis? Same with the Vujacic deal.
Nice deal for the Raps… not for anyone else.
Oh boy, where do we even begin?
Re: Banks for Vujacic and Sun Ye —
- Your numbers are wrong. The first year of savings would be about $1.27 mil, and the second year would only be $0.72 mil because Sun Ye would come off the books. That’s 4 mil saved over two years. You’re probably assuming that they keep Sun Ye, but that would totally kill your assumption that the Lakers need to shed salary bad enough to pull this lopsided trade. Why would they keep Sun Ye next year if they don’t trade him away, if they would be happy to part with him now?
- Vujacic “is still useful” in your own words, which is another reason the Lakers do not pull off this trade unless it was for an expiring contract.
- More likely scenario: wait until next year then trade Bank’s expiring contract.
Re: Pops —
- You can’t sign players using trade exceptions.
Re: GSW-Memphis-Toronto 3-way trade —
- I’m not even sure who you’re proposing to go where. Best I can make of it is you want us to send Memphis Ukic and/or Douby and/or O’Bryant, while Memphis sends Golden State Haddadi, with Golden State finally gifting Wright and Bellini to us. Somewhere in there, you also mentioned Wright to Memphis and O’Bryant to Golden State. If the numbers work, then great on that part, but you’re basically saying the Raptors will somehow trade our scrubs and get back a serviceable 2 and a 4 with a lot of potential. How does that even make sense for the other teams? Your only rationale is that Memphis needs a backup PG and Golden State could use a 3rd string center. When you start thinking of trade ideas that are based on someone needing a 3rd stringer, you should just stop there.
- Oh, and Wright isn’t a small forward. You probably thought he was because he’s like 6′9 and 200 lbs, but he’s actually a 4.
That said, you get to see at least part of your idea come to fruition. We apparently just traded George for Bellini.
Correction: Belinelli =)
vujacic is getting a bigger raise next year than banks, so the spread increases in year 2. Also, because LA is in luxury tax, the amount they save is doubled. So, in the first year, the lakers save 1.25+0.725 = 4 million. Still enough to split the difference with lamar, which would be the goal for the lakers.
re: pops. Fine, give him the league minimum. You can sign league minimum players even if you are over cap. 400 000 difference. Point is, it was a potential way to get rid of POB, which is a pre-requisite to acquiring pops. The centers weren’t necessary to the deal to work, cap wise, but I was creatively trying to get rid of pob.
wright positional error: my bad, I was looking at ESPN trade machine. That was my source. I am assuming normally espn.com is a respected source on this site. That being said, acquiring an offensive-minded back-up pf for, as you say, our scrubs, would still be a good idea, and he is available.
That being said, even though it was only half of the deal, did you read ANYWHERE the posibility of the raptors acquiring belini, and in exchange, salary wise, for george? Did anybody notice he was available for trade? I’d say that is pretty impressive.
The only possible deals out there involved trading our scrubs.
I notice you were very critical of my proposed trades, which have some possibility of happeneing (given that a significant part of one trade did). What trades do you propose, that might happen, to improve the raptors?
sorry, I meant I got that belinni would come to the raptors, not the for george. I am surprised that they would want him, wright seemed liked a better fit for the team. I didn’t think anybody wanted george and didn’t even try and include it in any deals.
Sorry, the total about the lakers savings should have been 4 million + twice the increase in difference between sasha’s salary and Banks. Assuming 500 000, that means the more precise number is 5 million for the lakers. Half-way between your estimate and mine.
Also, I guess you didn’t follow my link about the GS players, although trying to follow it now (it was from rotoworld.com and the synoposis can be read there) it doesn’t flow through. They are trying to get rid of Brandan Wright and Belinelli. If you have a source to contradict the San Jose newspaper that they want to keep Wright, by all means produce it.
Memphis needs a back-up pg, and is looking for one. That is why they might want him. I believe I read coangelo is trying to help roko get a job somewhere, so I consider roko is available.
And the logic for GS is a salary dump, without impacting their core, getting rid of two players they don’t want. In this economic environment, that is a sufficient justification for a trade. How many times this off-season have trades happened to reduce expenses?
Last point. Repeating myself. Do you have any trades where you even get the player coming to Toronto right?
Have you every heard ANYWHERE a way to get rid of marcus banks in a way that is beneficial to the other team (save 5 million, for the lakers losing a 3rd string–shannon brown got a 2 year deal, and I believe plays sg; according to espn, but look where that got me, which is the money to pay odom. Even if it is 4 million, that is 1 million more over 4 years for odom. Would you give up Sasha as a laker fan, if it meant you got lamar right now? I think you would. 4 million is more than they paid shannon brown.).
Will the trade happen? No. But you propose a scenario where the other team benefits from taking banks, in any way shape or form, still following cap limitations. Here’s a hint: the other player must be slightly more over-paid for his team, but on a 2-year contract like banks.
Dont be so sure about Mr. Bosh getting max money from alot of teams, Newyork , you never know they are crazy as we all know but I dont think any other team is insane enough to give him Max Money cause he is not a franchise guy, they would need Wade or Lebron etc as well. They cant shell out 2 max contracts and have anyone else significant enough to matter.
Marvin is off the market , another possible Raptor target…He stays with Atlanta!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Am9RH_3RG7Xtuv1647m7moC8vLYF?slug=mc-williams072909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Your right about the boards but each team has weaknesses, no matter how jacked they seem.
Lost Raptors:
The Wages of Wins Journal has Jamario Moon as the most underrated player of the 2008-2009 season. Anthony Parker is #8 on the list and Shawn Marion is #9.
http://dberri.wordpress.com/
Does anyone remember the Pistons team that won the championship? They did not have a superstar, they had a very good all round cast in Billups,Prince,Rasheed,Wallace and Hamilton…They beat Shaq/Kobe Raps have three very decent players and one exceptional player who needs to learn how to lead If he cant we should cut our loses and with that money sign 2 boader lone all stars who are really good and then depend on their debth and hope foe Barniani and perhaps even Derozen to develop although he aunt gonna be another Carter
My bad about all these typos, my phone has a mind of its ownp
Forget all of it.
With Marco Belinelli coming to town, Wright can return to the backup position, where he belongs. Not to dis Wright, but he is not an opening 5 caliber player and he wouldn’t be a good fit in a lineup with JC, Hedo, and Barni.
Not only does this trade make Toronto more European thatn Bruno, but brings together a great mix of youth, experience, and (most of all) smart B-Ball.
It will take time for them to gel as a team, but this is probably the best lineup the Raptors have ever had.