Put your money where your mouth is!Two major items this morning. The NBA’s moratorium period has ended and they have released the salary cap and tax level number for the upcoming season. The salary cap will be $57.7 million and the tax level is $69.92 million. The previous year’s salary cap was $58.68 million and the tax level was $71.15 million. The NBA states that “although the league-wide revenue increased by 2.5% this past season, the decrease in the salary cap and tax level for the 2009-10 season is the result of the formula used to set the cap and tax under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement.” So we all have a little less of the pie to work with but overall the drop isn’t much. The other major news of the day is ESPN’s report that Andrea Bargnani is being extended for five years at $10 million per. That number is about 1.5 million over his qualifying offer for 2010-11 which stood at 8.5 million.
This is definitely the safe way to go, otherwise we would’ve risked losing him next summer if a team signed him to an offersheet which we couldn’t match for whatever reason. It also protects us against any new CBA worries such as salaries going up. Hopefully he has a phenomenal year which would make this deal look like a steal. The flip side of the coin in him reverting to his form of his sophomore year and the first half of last year, basically he’s been great for 50% and terrible for 50% but even then it’s a gamble you just don’t take. One thing to keep in mind: if Bosh re-ups at the max, we’ll have 42 million tied in 3 players and 50 million tied in 4. In comparison, the Spurs have 48 million tied in 4 players next year, the Lakers have 52 million tied in 3, the Magic 50 million in 3 and the Cavaliers 55 million in 4. So its not a number that will prevent us from signing the role players needed to fill out the roster, but at the same time know that the teams I mentioned have arguably more solid cores than us. Money well invested for the Raptors?
There’s also this report by RR enthusiast Michael Grange where he says that the Turkoglu deal could take a few more days even though the Grand Turk is already in town.
So, where are we otherwise? Probably debating whether we should renounce those contracts before we sign Hedo and then deal with the rest of the roster in some haphazard way where we parlay Kris Humphries into a more serviceable and less frustrating player. Or of course there’s a chance we execute a sign-and-trade like the one rumoured the last couple days which would see Marion go to Dallas in exchange for Jerry Stackhouse and his 2 million guaranteed contract, who we would either keep on the bench for comedy purposes or more likely, release into the wilderness again. This deal does not benefit the Raptors much at all, it’s more a favor to Marion than anything else and at best it might yield us some cash or future considerations. There’s also some small talk out of LA that the Clippers might be interested as they can afford to pay him more than the MLE. As they say, there are no good options, just bad ones and inconsequential ones.
From what we can tell Colangelo wasn’t kidding around about trying to put a contending team out on the floor, his moves of late remind me of the quick-fire shooting-from-the-hip Glen Grunwald. They’ve got a touch of tact, a whole lot of desperation and a follow-through of a home run swing, question is whether he’s connecting or not. To his credit he’s also trying to correct his many mistakes one by one, the latest of which is him trying to unload Marcus “Cap Hold” Banks in a Marion sign-and-trade. Unfortunately for us, even the spendthrift Cuban isn’t willing to pay someone as unworthy as Banks a penny more than he deserves.
As discussed over the last couple days, a trade is the likeliest way a couple real players can end up in Toronto this year. Problem is that we haven’t got much to barter with other than Kris Humphries and those 3 million we keep hearing over and over again (which I thought could’ve been used wisely in the first round). When Colangelo was fleeced by Riley into taking on Banks and giving up a first round pick, the only safety net the Raptors had was a Marion sign-and-trade which as mentioned isn’t happening since nobody’s buying his Matrix role anymore. That leaves us with only one thing as trade bait – more draft picks.
Who needs Rasho when you have this guy?BTW, how nice would O’Neal’s contract be to have right now? Or more specifically, no Marcus Banks to worry about, a first round pick in hand and another asset in Jamario Moon to trade. Anyway, I’m getting off topic, what I’m trying to say is that after Humphries and the 3 million, we only have draft picks left as bait and right now Colangelo’s got to be thinking whether to risk even more of the future in order to fix the present. If he’s really serious about contending next year he’s going to have to bring in some bodies.
A starting five of Bosh, Bargnani, Turkoglu, Calderon and DeRozan complemented by a bench of Evans, Humphries, Banks, Douby, O’Bryant, Ukic and (maybe) Delfino is good for a 6th seed and a prompt first round exit. A defensive minded shooter of the Raja Bell, Rasaul Butler or James Posey variety is necessary to support the shooting-guard, and we need someone who can do what they told us Marcus Banks could do. Take a look at Rafer Alston, a spark of the bench who can break down his man and not panic when the defense reacts, how far do you think Roko is from doing that? If I had my pick I’d make try and wiggle hard for Grant Hill who both Boston and New York (I know) are interested in. Our other division rivals (if you can call them that after the 0-for season series), the Celtics, have inked Rasheed Wallace to the MLE.
Right now Colangelo has to go all in to acquire proven bench talent to keep up with the division and it might have to come at the cost of sacrificing even more draft picks. Usually I’m not a fan of giving up picks but if that’s the only way of not doing another half-ass job of assembling a bench, so be it, trade ‘em. Worry about acquiring them later, under a new GM.
Kelly Dwyer is very luke warm about the Hedo deal and I see his point. After all, Turkoglu was at best considered a role player for the majority of his career and suddenly he’s propelled himself into the pseudo-elite of the NBA. It’s a jump that’s going to be hard for him to sustain, to his credit he’s done it for two years but expecting five more is a stretch. Even then, Dwyer’s criticism of the deal is based on what the situation will be three years from now where he alleges that Hedo will be riding the pine and will be significantly older than the rest of the crew. Wrong. He’ll be 33, Calderon will be 30, Bosh will be 28 and Andrea will be 26. That’s hardly an unreasonable age difference. His skill-set will probably decline but let’s remember that his game isn’t dependent on quickness or athleticism, it’s based on craftiness. The obvious key to him being a productive member of the group will be health and so far in his career he’s been great. In his 10 seasons he’s played an average of 75 games per season and has never played less than 67 games.
Or if worst comes to worst, we can deal him to a contender looking for that missing piece at some deadline. God knows that some GM will deem Lebron, Kobe or Chris Paul needing help for that stretch run and will be willing to pull the trigger on a now proven playoff performer. If need be, we shouldn’t have any problem offloading Turkoglu’s contract in the next 2-3 years, year 4 will be tough but year 5 will see his value rise as an expiring contract.
There’s a spanking new poll on the site which asks you to pick between a guy who gets his ass kicked by his sister and another who wears makeup. I can see a cat-fight breaking out. Another quick note. If you want to stay right up to date with Raptors news throughout the summer, look no further than our twitter account which AltRaps is all over as if it were Cinnamon from the Rail.
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Was there a deadline of midnight to renounce our free agents?
Meaning I thought the sign and trade had to be done before midnight?
Does this mean no deal????
no, the cap was being announced around midnight. Now that we know what it is, Colangelo and his merry band of accountants are sitting down figuring out the best course.
We have to do the sign and trade/renouncing before we sign Hedu (sic), that is maybe what you are thinking of. Hedu’s (sic) agent stated he was willing to wait a couple of days for Colangelo to get it done.
5 years at $50 Million for Bargnani is a great signing by Colangelo. While that averages to $10 Million per year, considering Bargnani’s qualifying offer for 2010 was $8.5 Million, Bargnani’s new contract extension will start at approximately $8.5 Million in 2010 and he’ll get annual increases of 10%. The point is that he’s not really getting an increase in his first year salary at all.
While there is a little risk that he has only played very well for the last half of the last season, there is a much greater chance that he could end up being a real steal for the Raptors at the new contract. I’m frankly surprised that his agent didn’t convince Bargnani to avoid an extension this summer try and put up good numbers this season and then look for a bigger pay day next summer as a restricted free agent. Props to BC for this deal.
By the way, Bargnani at $10 Million a year is a much better value contract than Bosh at a max contract averaging $21 Million per year.
i may be out of the loop but who’s the guy with bargs in the photo?
I’m fairly sure that’s a fake photo. I remember it coming out after his rookie season and it got everyone all excited about him bulking up, until they realized how out of proportion his head is with the rest of his body.
So this is terrible news … the beginning of the end.
I saw that reaction on your blog. Care to elaborate? Quite a few others think it’s positive, getting in before he (or a suitor) can ramp up his value.
Two Reasons:
(1) Limited ways to improve the team. The Raptors now have poor cap flexibility, with those four core players taking up nearly the entire salary cap. The team’s players also have limited trade value (don’t win a Bosh trade, or a Hedo trade, leaving the two others).
That leaves internal development and the draft. I’m not high on Bargnani’s potential, so I don’t think much of the Raptors chances to improve there. DeRozan is an X factor. The one decent bit of news is that the Raptors could very well be staying in the lottery, but they’d have a low pick in the #10-#14 range — hard to get stars there, but you can get some good pieces.
(2) Everything Bill Brasky, amongst many others, said about a Hedo-Bosh-Bargnani frontcourt being incompatible is true. The Raptors have locked themselves into a core that cannot compete.
… The Raptors are in a lot of trouble and it will only begin to end in one of two circumstances:
#1 Most likely — They blow up their core. They move a minimum of one of their top four players, maybe more.
#2 Highly unlikely — they get a miracle, DeRozan becomes an MVP candidate, or they draft All-Star caliber players in back-to-back seasons with their high lottery picks, or Bargnani becomes the player that many here hope for him to become, or some combination of the three.
That’s why I think this deal is the beginning of the end.
Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
I’m certainly not a Bargs flagwaver, but I think he’s the type of guy worth a risk at that price. I think Colangelo would overpay for someone anyway, and in this case he knows what he is getting. I also think the contract is a piece that is easily moved, assuming he doesn’t Keon Clark himself.
Thankfully, Bargs’ only vice is pasta. He’ll be alright.
Although I’m not a Bargnani fan, locking him to a 5/50 isn’t that bad for the same reason you put on your site. If he had a solid year this year, he would have been in line for a much larger, more potentially handcuffing type contract.
On the flip side, he’s a 7 footer who can shoot, and the worst, he can be traded to a team who covets his perceived ability, and ultimately could be used in a similar role as kwame brown in landing a solid player as his contract expires when he is still under 30.
Arse …. I can’t see how you can’t recognize this as a shot across Bosh’s bow, telling him he won’t get max money from the MLSE … because of Hedo’s and Barg’s contracts.
Based on the strength of current NBA teams, I just can’t see BC investing max money on Bosh and crippling the team. Also I can’t see Bosh wanting to play for the ‘international’ Raptors much longer and would prolly welcome an early trade. I think Bosh realizes he must prove his worth on another NBA team to reinforce his claim as a max money player.
This season Bosh will receive $15,779,912 and for his option year $17,149,243. If Bosh steps up his game this season, perhaps BC might go for a 5 year – $100M contract for Bosh.
Personally, I would prefer BC trade Bosh for a couple of good athletes plus a draft pick, and that would fill out the Raptor roster. No ‘all-stars’ .. just good, potent team players getting the team into the playoffs.
Again … surely the Hedo signing and Barg extension is telling Bosh that Hedo and Bargs are an integral part of the Raptor’s future … and he’s not … and the Raptors are preparing for his departure if he so chooses.
I don’t want to think about a Raptor team that is built around Bargnani. I like the kid, but not as the centerpiece. Dude is a one-trick pony (who scores very well), but he doesn’t bring a lot of anything else.
If we trade Bosh, we better be getting an all-star, a role player and a young gun in return. Anything less and this team will become the Clippers.
I didn’t say that the Raptors should be built around Bargs .. in fact I said the opposite .. that the Raptors should be built around a core of ‘team’ players like Hedo, Bargs, Jose, with no ‘all-star’ ‘franchise’ player being payed max money and crippling the team payroll.
If Bosh wants max money, he should go shopping elsewhere because I’m bored with Bosh’s stagnant game. Yes he gets his 20+ pts. and 8 rebounds mostly on the defensive end and uncontested. Whenever did you see Bosh fighting for and pulling down offensive rebounds?
As I’ve said before: Bargs + Evans > Bosh …. Bargs will get the points and Evans will fight for rebounds on both sides, not just snagging easy uncontested rebounds off the defensive boards.
If the Raptors are being built for ‘team’ bball, then over-payed, all-star, franchise players are not needed … only good, smart, athletic players who are fairly paid … So let’s trade Bosh for a couple of decent players and let him get his max money contract elsewhere.
Of course, tribal honking fans desperately need their ‘hero’ to fulfill their pathetic lives … buying jerseys and shoes to complete their delusionary existence.
In Boston, when he grabbed the board and regained possession for Bargs to hit the tying 3. If it’s so easy to stand and grab defensive boards, why can’t Bargnani (and everyone else in the league) do it?
Maybe if you combined Bargs & Evans into one player they’re better than Bosh, or having them share 48 minutes will result in more total production. But a rotation that includes Bargs + Evans + players X & Y. isn’t better than Bosh + players X,Y,Z.
I don’t need a hero, but I prefer good players. And Bosh has been the best player on the team for 4 years. You live in the same world and comment on the same blog I do pal, my delusion’s as good as yours.
“You live in the same world and comment on the same blog I do pal, my delusion’s as good as yours.”
Kudos, sir.
“You live in the same world and comment on the same blog I do pal, my delusion’s as good as yours.”
This should be a dislaimer at the top of every forum / blog FOREVER! Love it.
Actually no, but do tell us what you think of a max Bosh then.
Given the way the team’s being constructed (with Bargs, Hedo, and Jose locked in for min 4 more years), I’m not sure a max’d Bosh fits in. But I don’t agree with that make-up necessarily.
BC’s in a tough position with Bargs, he’s good but not great (I can’t see a way he ever becomes as good as Bosh all-around) but I doubt his trade value is very high. You can’t move Bargs for pieces, and even though I’d rather keep Bosh I don’t think a starting lineup consisting of Jose, Hedo, Bosh & Bargs can compete for even a birth in the conference championship. So I guess Bosh is (sadly) the one to go. Although I’d prefer a Marion/RJ type at the 3 with Bosh & Bargs at 4/5, that’s not the way it worked.
If a team DOES max Bosh, I see no reason they can’t win with him as an integral piece. He’s not in the same league as LeBron or Wade (only Kobe and Paul round out the elite tier in the league), but in reality those 4 are worth MORE than the max. In that case, comparing them to Bosh isn’t really fair, because there’s a ceiling to their salaries. If there wasn’t, they’d definitely get more than Bosh.
If the Raptors did not give a max contract to Chris Bosh, what would you like to see them do in order to build around Calderon + Turkoglu + Bargnani?
They need defense, rebounding & toughness. Hopefully DeRozan can give that on the perimeter, a guy like Scola or PJ Brown down low, with an athletic shot-blocking big coming off the bench. Unfortunately there aren’t a lot of PJs left in the league, so its tricky.
If the cap is at $60M next year (and the tax at $72M), that gives Bosh a salary at $18M and the 4 a total salary of $47M. Can you fill out a reasonable roster with $25M? Actually, you probably can – assuming you have no crap contracts eating into the available space. Maybe a max Bosh is possible, but BC’s going to have to be near-perfect with every other signing to maximize the available space.
Colangelo, in making the commitment to Turkoglu, took into his salary consideration, the need to sign both Bargnani and Bosh to extensions in the coming year.
It is his continuing intention to resign Bosh when he opts out of his contract, or if he wishes to leave, which is unlikely, as he would leave $30/40 mil on the table, use the salary he frees up to sign a replacement.
No GM with any kind of sense is going to trade his best player, scorer, rebounder, franchise cornerstone, as it is impossible to get value to replace him.
As usual, agree with a lot of it, but here are a few things I’m not on board for:
1. How nice would it be to still have Jermaine O’Neal? Not nice, since we wouldn’t have Turkoglu. I’d much rather have Turk for 5 years at 10 million a year than the Drain at 1 yr./22 mil.
2. Who cares about Banks? His contract is 4 million. 4 Million of deadwood on your roster is par for the course in the NBA. It is a bit annoying, but not a huge deal. Last 2 years we were paying Garbajosa 5 million a year to not be on our roster.
3. 6th seed? We’ll see. It really depends on how much improvement we get out of Bargnani and where DeRozan’s game is at. But When it comes to the playoffs, it’s really only the first 8 guys on your bench that matter. I like our 8 right now, and I will like it better if, as I expect, Hump gets moved for something worthwhile.
4. I realise this is beating a dead horse, but people keep saying it, so here goes: If you think Bosh is not worth max money, you are mistaken. Bosh will get max money, or very close. Paying him max money will not doom any club to mediocrity forever. Apparently, if enough people repeat the same stupid shit again and again, it becomes received wisdom, but it still ain’t true.
My 2 cents: Colangelo seems to have his ducks in a row pretty well for the raptors being extremely good in 2010. DeRozan will have a year of experience under his belt, we’ll have the midlevel exception again to add one more key sub. It all depends on Bosh coming back, and I think he will, because Colangelo will throw more money at him than anyone else can, and rightly so.
I could not agree more with everything you said. Especially about having O’Neal. How would that help us. We’d have the same crap team that didn’t work last year. Because we traded him we now have Turk and a much better Bargs and all the good things that come with it.
The Bargs extension is fantastic. You could make the arguement that a year from now he’d be “worth” more. Bargs at 10mil per, Calderon at 8, Turk at 11. That’s actually all very good for your 2/3/4 best players who are all borderline all-stars in the East. Do people who bitch about these numbers somehow think the Raps are able to sign whomever they want at bargain prices??? You have to PAY good players and relatively speaking these are good deals for a starting PG/C/SF. Bosh will get a MAX deal. Get over it. What we do with Bosh after he signs his max deal remains to be seen. Bosh will absolutely NOT be traded this year.
I don’t get people who do not like the Turk deal. If Colangelo had done nothing people would be bitching even more. Signing Marion for too much to stay in a place he didn’t want to be would be foolish…and that would just be even more of the same from last year that didn’t work. The pros for the Turk deal so vastly outweigh the cons I don’t know what people are bitching about other than just feeling the need to bitch about whatever BC does. He basically went out and managed to sign the best guy he possibily could have who actually wants to be here. How horrible of him.
Just in regards to point number 1 – Richard Jefferson just got traded for salary relief (Bowen, Amir, and Kurt Thomas) Shaquille O Neal just got traded for salary relief (Wallace and Pavlovic) Both are all-star caliber players.
Jermaine O’ Neal possesses the 3rd highest contract in the league (I believe) and is expiring next summer, when EVERYONE is looking for salary relief.
So with JO, Moon, and the pick we gave up, we would have likely had the chips to acquire a player just as good if not better than Turk via a trade with a team that is either financially strapped, or looking to get into the Lebron sweepstakes.
Like who? Who is out there that is better than Turk? We don’t need Shaq and RJ makes more money than Turk will. I don’t think I’d want RJ over Turk anyway, especially at more money. Turk IS an all-star caliber player.
You gotta make moves when the opportunity presents itself. You can’t sit on your hands hoping that a perfect deal comes your way in the future. People bashed the TJ/O’Neal (but what is TJ now?!), then the O’Neal/Marion deal (which lead to us getting Turk), now other people are complaining about having traded O’Neal in the first place. Jeez.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t have made the move at the time. I’m simply defending the fact that JO’s contract would have been a valuable bargaining chip for us to have this summer. The original poster said we wouldn’t have Turk, and I said players just as good or better than Turk have been moved for less than JO/Moon/1st rounder already. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and I didn’t criticize the trade at the time, so I can’t criticize it now. I was just saying that malefax seems to have undervalued what a $20+ million expiring contract can do for you.
Who’s been discussed and/or traded that’s better than Turk? Jefferson, David Lee, Vince Carter (obviously we wouldn’t trade for him, but just sayin’), Villanueva or Gordon in potential sign and trades, Randy Foye (if you value his youth over Turk’s experience…some would argue that one), Rondo was on the table around the draft, same goes for McGrady. I’m sure you have a million reasons why you wouldn’t want some of those guys, or why the trades wouldn’t work, but the fact remains that if we had a huge expiring contract, a serviceable depth player, and a first rounder to offer up this summer we could’ve been far more active on the trade market.
And you don’t have to make moves just because they’re available. That’s how we got into our current situation in the first place. Charlie V for TJ was available, so we did it. Now Charlie is the better player. TJ and Roy Hibbert for JO and Jawai was available, so we did it. Now TJ/Hibbert is clearly the better combo (and I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say “but what is TJ now?” He’s just as good as he ever was with Toronto, and he’s actually improved his jumper out to 3 point range. So, yeah…that’s what he is…a pretty decent point guard) Making deals just for the sake of making deals is ridiculous. We should commit to a core group of players and build around them via the draft and free agency, not trade away one of our major pieces every year.
TM Williamson,
Unlike you, perhaps, I did criticize the O’Neal & Moon trade to Miami before it happened … just like I did last summer before the Raptors’ trade with the Pacers.
Instead of swinging for the fences repeatedly, missing, and driving himself further into the ground what Bryan Colangelo should have done as the trade dealine approached this past season was exactly what I said at the time … i.e. not things worse than they were, relativel speaking, sit tight and wait to make sound incremental improvements during the NBA Draft and through additional trades this summer, with a long term perspective in mind.
—————————–
The fear which loyal Raptors fans SHOULD have at this point … is that Dave might well be RIGHT, if Bargnani fails to take a major step up in class, first, this season and then heading down the road as his contract extension begins to unwind.
Despite the optimism of some die-hard Raptors fans … the unfortunate fact is that Andrea has done nothing to this point in his NBA career to merit serious consideration as a Top Notch player in this League.
As I said earlier …
* Forget about evaluating “the bench” of this team, at this point
instead
* Evaluate just these 4 players … i.e. Calderon, Turkoglu, Bosh & Bargnani … properly, individually and in concert with one another
If you like what you see then where the team is at today may be cause for optimism.
However, if you see landmines in the configuration of this team with those 4 players seeing major minutes together on the floor, then, there is real cause for concern regarding the Raptors’ ability to ever challenge for a league championship within the life of the contracts signed by Turkoglu and Bargnani.
You are right, I wouldn’t take any one of those players over Turk. I don’t think most of them are significantly better or worse. So since Turk is here, wants to be here, and makes less than most of them, and has a well-rounded complementary game and skill set for our team, I’m happy to have Turk.
Regarding TJ, he’s second string to Jarret Jack. I like TJ but he’s not better than, or better for our team, than Turk.
What I SHOULD have written was you have to make deals that you think will improve your team when they present themselves.
Obviously everyone has a different style and way of working towards goals. I’m someone that likes to make things happen and take action, so I relate to BC in that respect and like it. I don’t like conservative, cautious, stand-pat approach. Obviously a GM can’t just make recless trades just for the fun of it, and I see no evidence of BC doing that. Successful people make things happen by taking action, making changes when things aren’t working, and being patient with valuable assets. I think BC does that.
He has been patient with Bosh and Bargs and Calderon, he has traded using assets from a position of excess to fill positions of need, he has parted ways with people that do not fit his vision, and he has taken some calculated high and low risks hoping to reap reward. All that sounds good to me.
Oh…and btw…I’ve always felt that Vince Carter is exactly what the Raps DO need. Too bad it’s all worked out the way it has.
I can appreciate the sentiment, and those things you said (dealing from positions of strength, calculated risks, fitting his vision) are all great ideas in theory. It’s just that in reality, those deals didn’t necessarily improve the team in my opinion. It’s basically impossible to take it all the way back to the start of his tenure and assess it from there, because one deal led to another, and it all affects the salary structure and blah blah blah, so I’ll leave it at that.
As far as TJ goes, I’m not saying I’d still want him on the team, I supported moving him. I’m just saying, when you really look at it on the whole (again, hindsight), we gave up him, Roy Hibbert (who is already a serviceable big off of the bench and will likely become a starter), Jamario, and a first for the money that turned into Turk and a bad, bad contract. I love Turk, but that’s a high price to add him.
I agree you’ve got to make things happen as a GM, there are just a couple instances where (with the help of hindsight) I would have rather BC stood pat. Not saying I could have done better, not saying I don’t like BC, just saying some of these deals didn’t really work out for us for one reason or another. At this point though, there’s obviously no going back, and like you, I am very excited about the addition of Hedo to the roster. I think I’ve done enough looking back and criticizing old moves, time for me to focus on what we’ve got going forward.
And I agree with you on VC on the court. I just hate him so, so much. That’s why I welcome comparions between VCs game and DeRozan’s though.
TM Williamson,
To boot … It’s actually not “hindsight” if/when someone comes along and tells you in advance that the outcome of a specific move, which others happen to support at the moment, is likely to turn out badly for the team, in opposition to what Raptors’ management has trumpeted to the fanbase.
Ya I guess my overall point is as you say, deals have been made that have not really worked out, so gotta keep moving forward with new deals. It’s not like BC made any deal he didn’t think would help the team (at least I hope not). The past is gone and I think he’s set us up for an exciting future with more options down the road than some people think.
Yes I hate VC….because I used to love him so much. Same as you, I have high hopes for Derozan.
If all things go well, in 3 years will have Bosh/Bargs/Jose in their primes, Turk as the wiley do it all veteran, and DeRozan as the exciting/explosive young gun.
malefax:– “4. I realise this is beating a dead horse, but people keep saying it, so here goes: If you think Bosh is not worth max money, you are mistaken. Bosh will get max money, or very close. Paying him max money will not doom any club to mediocrity forever. Apparently, if enough people repeat the same stupid shit again and again, it becomes received wisdom, but it still ain’t true.”
…………………
Do you believe that BC will shell out massive max money for Bosh .. or will he give Bosh max money on a sign and trade, thus acquiring two or three good “team” players to fill out the Raptor roster?
Giving Bosh max money would cripple the Raptor’s payroll and condemn the team to high draft pick existence. I suspect BC may offer Bosh a generous 5 year-$100 Million contract and no more … I hope not, because I prefer to see Bosh off the Raptors as part of it’s rebuild into a bball “team” … without an all-star, franchise, go-to player … only a solid corp of team players who can entertain and even win games by outsmarting and outplaying the opposition with their all-star franchise player.
If the Raptors do decide to give Chris Bosh max money [@ $120.0 M] … what might cripple the team are the 2nd tier contracts they’ve now given to players like Turkoglu [@ $50.0 M] and Bargnani [@ $50.0 M], who might not be capable of pulling their weight, in comparison to the competition at their respective positions, if the goal is actually WINNING.
Stopping worrying about bad things that “might” be that haven’t even happened. You sound like my ex-girlfriend ;-)
It’s not “worrying” about what “might” happen in the future. It’s called assessing accurately what’s happened in the past, what’s actually happening at the moment, and then considering what the possibilities are regarding what WILL happen in the future.
Do you own a bank account? What about mutual funds? A home? Stocks and other investments? Or, are all of your financial assets in your pocket, at the moment?
Different strokes for different folks, no doubt. I, personally, prefer to have “enough” money in my pocket, a credit card in my wallet AND “more than enough” financial assets in my portfolio to live the life I please.
IMO, the Raptors should do likewise.
It was a joke.
I understand that. I laughed at what you wrote. Then, I extended the analogy further for you to consider the implications of that perspective. Hopefully, what I did accomplished that goal. I think it did.
Instead of chosing between Andrea and Lee maybe the question should be:
If you had 20 million to spend would spend on Chris Bosh or David Lee + a player like Richard Hamilton. Lee 9mil a year and Hamilton 11mil a year.
David Lee is avery good player and would be nice alongside Bosh don’t get me wrong, Hamilton Lee and Andrea would be money better spent.
Au contraire. A team’s best player SHOULD not be part of the equation. The 2nd best is fair game, as is the 3rd, 4th, etc. You don’t win, in the NBA, by trading your best player for two other very good ones.
Maybe I’ll put up that specific poll question tomorrow.
i.e. Which one is better:
* Bosh + Lee + Turkoglu
or
* Bargnani + Lee + Hamilton
For me, isn’t close.
You forgot:
Bargs + Bosh + Turk
…I’ll take that one. Good thing we already have it.
As a note, a don’t think the “Lee and Hamilton” scenario excludes Turk…
So its:
* Bosh + Lee + Turkoglu
or
* Bargnani + Lee + Hamilton + Turkoglu
Perhaps a bit closer?
Ahem… “I don’t think” and “it’s”…
Apologies.
What I was talking about is spending 20 million:
I think Bosh is better then both Lee and Andrea.
BUT when spending 20 million on building the best team possible:
Lee or Andrea + Hamilton is greater then Bosh
Andrea is our starting center for years to come.
Get over it!!!!
Bosh is a POWER FORWARD here and most likely for years to come.
I have no problem keeping Bosh in fact I hope we do and go into the tax but if MLSE does not decide to do so then 20 Million in Bosh is a MISTAKE it could be better spent on two 10 million a year players IMO
IT IS WHAT IT IS ANNDREA IS OUR STARTING CENTER IF YOU DONT LIKE IT MAYBE ITS TIME FOR YOU TO WALK ON BY TO ANOTHER TOPIC
Somehow, it bothers me that Bargnani would lock himself in for only ten million a year for those five years. Maybe I like to imagine him more fiercely competitive than what he actually is, but if he was as confident in how good he’ll get to be as what … I generally am, he’d scoff at such a relatively moderate number for himself that far in advance, all the way from 24 years old to the age of 29. It might be that I think too highly of his potential, but way more importantly, I wish he did, as well.
My friend, $50 million is nothing to schoff at…think about it…see now you got it..nothing to schoff at…$50 million!
Bargs is on the rise, but still it’s $50 million!
And NO money isn’t everything…if any “regular” person was trying to get a raise and had done what Bargs had prior…you too would take the $50 and run…
No, I don’t think I would’ve.
I’m sure he thinks it’s a very good number since it’s basically the same deal Turk just got who is a borderline allstar. Quite complimentary.
What’s the price tag for the other big turk in Utah ? crunch the numbers and age?…I’ve got no problem with the 10 mil for the big pasta.
I know it’s a good deal for the team (probably a great deal) and I’m certainly glad about that. But … it’s more of an attitude thing (Barg’s), for me. I just would’ve preferred to see him hold out to show what he’s really capable of this year, to get the big(ger) dollars, come next year. It would’ve been nice to see that kind of feisty belief in himself … similar in a way, to what Chris Bosh is doing, instead of settling for the Turk money, who just signed what is likely his last contract, or at least, his last good one. Bargnani has too far to go yet, to settle, imo. For me, it’s all about the attitude. That’s all.
Just watched the press conference and Andrea looks happy so … I’m happy. Actually, I’m downright pumped! Very glad to have him on board for (at least) six more years. Go AB! Go Raps!
If I was AB I’d take it…. he is getting paid for POTENTIAL… he hasn’t proven he is worth that $ yet. (not saying he won’t be).
I don’t like this move. If they’d been able to extend him at around 7-8 mil/year I would say do it but at 10 mil/year I’d want to see how he did this season. That’s the kind of money that gets you David Lee and I’m not sure Bargs is, or will ever be, as good a player as Lee. I hope I’m wrong since I’m a Raps fan and really enjoy Bargs’ good games but you can’t just ignore that horrific second season, or the atrocious rebounding.
There’s no chance he’d extend at $7-8 million/year. He’s due for $8.5 million in the last year of his rookie contract. If his agent was recieving offers for such a significant paycut, there’s no doubt in my mind that he holds off on negotiating an extension until after this season. And after this season, Andrea either proves to be a bust and is no longer worth building your team around, or he’ll have earned a contract far more than $10 million/year.
Exactly
Although it’s a tough comparison, I would say that what you lose from Bargnani on D you make up for with tremendous talent on O. Don’t get me wrong, David Lee is a fine player, but I’d still rather have Bargnani.
Just thought I’d mention that while Lee is an outstanding rebounder, his offensive game is limited, and he isn’t a great defender either.
Further, I think he’s reached his ceiling. We aren’t discussing Rodman here.
1. re: David Lee’s Offense
I agree that he isn’t that good.
2. re: David Lee Defense
I’d also suggest, however, that he is a much better defender as the Power Forward in a 3 Out/2 In offensive system than he is as the Center in a 4 Out/1 In offensive alignment.
Beside a Center like Chris Bosh, Mr. Lee would have a field day on the weak side of the floor on offense, and form a highly versatile combo on the defensive and rebounding fronts.
Bosh plays power forward.
Until you become a coach or a GM he will continue to be a PF
Walk on by to a legit topic.
Maybe Raptors republic should give warnings for people who constantly repeat themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again
I am just saying enough is enough.
P.S I love the dislike and like parts you guys have added maybe certain people should notice there scores and move on instead of constantly saying we should trade Andrea and Move Bosh to the 5.
He just signed a new 5 year extention its time to move on and accept reality.
I like what Chris brings to the table on the offensive end at Center.
I dislike Chris as a defender at C. He has significant trouble keeping people off the block, allows deep post position, and generally gets abused.
David Lee is best running the baseline, or rolling on the PnR. He isn’t going to be the 1 2 or 3 option on the PnR in TO, we have significantly better players to run the PnR with, and Calderon isn’t very good at throwing a lob to people running the baseline, so I think getting Lee means getting a great rebounding garbage man. Now. There is something to like about that, for example, I liked Pops in that role, but I sure don’t want to pay someone $12,000,000 a season to do it, and again, he’s not great defensively. He’s not even good. He’s average at best defensively. His lateral quicks are not good, his anticipation isn’t great, about the only plus is his willingness to try really hard.
I love players who play at 120% and at 120 mph, but I don’t want to pay $12 million for Rebounders. I’ll grant you rebounding is necessary, but I’d rather pay Pops. Some things to think about:
SPLIT G MIN STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
Total 22 12.9 1.70 0.85 3.2 7.3 9.3 9.8 19.2 1.0 18.8
So Pops averaged 18.8 pts and 19.2 boards per 48.
SPLIT G MIN STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
Total 81 34.9 1.36 0.37 2.5 4.4 4.4 11.8 16.2 3.0 22.0
So David Lee is getting 22.0 and 16.2 per 48.
David Lee played a lot more, and so he isn’t as prone to number inflation as Pops, but really, I don’t want to pay $12 million a season for someone I can approximate for $1.3 million.
IMO, Colangelo is working pretty well. I really think he can pull out a good/great team in a couple of seasons. But as a matter of fact if we have to become contenders in 2010, there’s still some events to happen:
1- add some real depth to the bench, specially oriented towards the guard spots and the 4-5 spots. For the backup for the 1 spot we could also use a combination of Hedo + AP (if he stays in TO), with Delfino and DD taking turns on the 2 spot. So at the end what we really need is
2- 2009 must be a year of strong development for a couple of players, specifically Bargs (he should confirm all the good he’s done in the second part of this season, and get better at rebounding and passing, something he should be able to achieve) and DD, who’s been a gamble, but could fastly develop into a good-great player (rebounds + strong finish). This point is essential to make the leap, it sounds risky but if Raps’ management is as good as their reputation, it could be accomplished with good probability.
3- the Bosh issue: if he resigns next year, great. If he doesn’t, much of the Raps’ fortune will depend on the quality of players we’ll get in return from the deal. If we don’t want to move Bargs to the 4 – which I don’t think would be so bad anyway, we’re not talking about having him play at the 3 spot (remember anyone?) – we’ll need a strong rebounder and 15 PPG starter at the 4, plus another big to drop into rotation, and some nice piece of exchange to really enhance the bench at the guard spots. If Bosh walks this summer, well, we’ll have to anticipate this part.
I think we might be able to get past the 1st playoffs round this season (past the second if we’re really lucky), and become contenders by 2010. Not an easy path, but neither an impossible one. All my support to BC.
Still having the drain on the roster would leave us in a much better situation. We could deal him to a team looking to get under the cap for next years free agent bonanza. Think about it i’m sure you could fish a couple decent wings players for that 22 mill contract that runs it course at the end of the year. For instances you don’t think that now that detroit has BG locked up they wouldnt love to move hamilton??
We DID trade O’NEal for a decent wing LAST year. His name was Marion. And now we have Turk with the cap space who I’d rather have than Hamilton. So you are about one season behind the curve.
We traded Oneal for a wing sure you can look at it that way, or you can see that we traded Oneal, a first round pick, a decent backup wing, for a 30 game rental of a wing player, and the one of the worst contracts in sports in Marcus Banks. Personally i would love to not be paying 4 mill a year to a pg that never plays. The only good thing about the Oneal Trade is that it showed bargs that the franchise sorta believes in him and he started to play like a very solid nba player.
So would you prefer a GM that does nothing? Or do you think other GMs in the league are just waiting by the phone for BC to offer them garbage deals that only benefit the Raps, and that free-agents can’t wait to take less money to play for the Raps? Do you think that there are a million amazing deals out there that BC just picks one of them out of a hat?
BC makes tough decisions and takes action which is what you want from someone running your business. Indecisive fence-sitters are for middle management. You may not agree with his vision, but he’s the GM of an NBA team and we are not. He takes action which at the very least makes things interesting for us. He is clearly making progress towards making his vision reality. He’s doing A LOT of stuff organization-wide, that I for one think will ultimately set up the Raps to be a very stable, contending team year-over-year, while making Toronto an attractive destination city for NBA players.
+1
BC= Playing Chess
RaptorsRepublic commenters = Playing Checkers
Thats clearly said in about 50% jest.
I don’t get the hate on the Bargs deal, starting centers get paid well in the association. I think its already been mentioned, but Rasho got 7-8 million a season! I love the guy but he was never worth 7-8 million.
Bargnani could very well end up being the second best center in the eastern conference for years to come, and if he’s not he’ll still be better and less well compensated that the kinda canadian Samuel Dalembert.
I’m simply not willing to pat a GM on the back for “taking action” or “making tough decisions” Every GM of every team in the world takes action. No one gets a GM job, sits back, and thinks “I’m just gonna ride this one out until they get rid of me. No need to do anything.”
I want my GM to take the correct action. I want him to make the right decision. BC has done that in a few cases, but he has also made some significant errors.
To present BC as some sort of master strategist that has made every move as part of a calculated plan is optimistic in my opinion. This team is marginally better off than when he arrived, Calderon being the only hands down successful acquisition he has made up to this point. He’s made some good moves besides that, but the bottom line is he took over a struggling team that leaned heavily on its superstar, and nothing has changed, despite the fact that he fell ass backwards into a first overall pick.
I don’t mean to declare his tenure a failure, because this team could come around yet, but I don’t think you can declare it a success either. I truly hope the last sentence you wrote is true, but I personally haven’t seen that until this offseason. That being said, I’m thrilled about all three acquisitions this summer, so hopefully he is heading in the right direction.
Well look around the league and see which GMs are actually taking action and which do not. You know what happens if you do nothing? Nothing. As per usual, it’s easy for us to sit around here and judge his moves. No one person on here is in reality a better GM than BC when it comes down to it. And no GM makes a golden move every time. I’m not saying he is perfect, far from it. It’s for all of us to sit here at our ‘puters thinking we can do a better job, when the reality is we don’t even know half of what is going on. At the very least it’s kinda of obvious that since BC likes making moves, he MUST talk to a lot of people about a lot of scenerios. So I think it’s safe to say that he kicks a lot of tires and knows what’s out there and what isn’t, and makes decisions according to what HE thinks is best for the team.
But there’s a difference between being active and making a move that drastically changes the makeup of your roster year after year. RC Buford, for example, is active, but in a different way than BC. The Jefferson move was the first significant addition to that team in years. Obviously the Raptors are not exactly in a position to do that at the moment, (although some would argue we would be if we had Roy instead of Bargnani, but again, that’s hindsight so it’s irrelevant at this point) but to me, that’s the ideal way to manage a team.
I’m not one that criticizes BC at every turn. I try to support him as best I can, but I am realistic, and the fact is his tenure hasn’t yet been as successful as some people think it has been. Am I writing off his abilities as a GM? Absolutely not. Do I think he has the ability to turn it around? Quite possibly. I’m just saying that his work with the Raptors so far has been fairly unspectacular.
And I totally forgot about Jose’s rookie season. Thanks for the correction CaldeRosen.
Well ya, the Spurs are the model, but they’ve also been quit “lucky” with 2 overall picks when it happened to be Duncan and Robinson and they found international gems when they weren’t so highly scouted/recruited. The Spurs have been stable for a while with their core, and rightfully so. I think that is what BC is attempting to do, and I think we will see that stability mostly from now on with Calderon, Turk, Bargs and hopefully Bosh, locked up for a while. Then he can tinker with the complementary players to find the right mix.
Yeah I wish our best player could go down for a season so we could tank for the best prospect in a five year span.
BC didn’t acquire Calderon. He was a signing of Rob Babcock. BC did re-sign him to a longer term deal, but that’s not an acquisition.
Although he seems to have dropped off the radar, Kris Humphries was unquestionably BC’s best acquisition. If anyone recalls, he was picked up in return for Hoffa. Hump gave us some great minutes off the bench in the past few years, but didn’t see the floor because he was injured most of last season. If Hump doesn’t get moved, and comes back from injury to regain the form of previous seasons (a few boneheaded shots aside), he’s BC’s best pickup — considering the cost.
Hump *might* come back to form but isn’t there going to be some serious redundancy at the banger position with Evans and Pops already there. I tell ya, I just don’t see Hump being on this roster come training camp.
Seeing as Hump has a guaranteed contract, there’s a much better chance he’s at training camp than Pops, who was just given a non-guaranteed qualifying offer.
Ok, Ok, about all this trade talk. This is how I understand it (feel free to correct).
Capspace/exceptions Dilemma-
We can only sign other team’s free agents to a maximum of whatever amount of money we are under the soft cap (and our FA’s must be renounced). If we are under the cap we do not get the MLE and the Bi-annual exception. Therefore the only way to obtain Hedo and keep the exceptions and avoid renouncing our own players is convincing Orlando to sign-and-trade him to us. Not so simple, but possible.
Now Orlando doesnt want Marion, and a sign-and-trade cannot include addtional players/salaries/assets according to the CBA. One way that it may work is either a 3 team deal or 2 separate deals which look like this:
-Raps sign-and-trade Marion to Dallas for Stackhouse
-Raps Trade Stackhouse (7M) and Hump (3M) to Orlando for Hedo (10M)
Why?-
We get Hedo, Orlando gets a rebounding PF Gortat replacement (and an valuable expiring contract with only 2M guarenteed), and Dallas gets Marion. Other assets can be included but never by the team doing the sign-and-trade (eg we can trade Hump + Stack + 2nd rnder to Orlando but we cant trade Marion + 2nd rounder to Dallas etc)
Thats the only possible situation that I’m aware of that we aquire Hedo AND keep our exceptions to sign players and retain the rights to our own players!
But why would Orlando want to take back $5M in contracts (which would be $10M for them, since they are over the luxury tax) to waive Stack and get a shaky backup big man in Hump?
The only way Orlando does this is to dump salary, obtain a trade exception, and/or to acquire draft picks. However, they really don’t have any ‘dumpable’ players, in fact, they only have 8 players on their roster right now. So they may also do it to acquire some bit players, but why would they, when they can go out and sign those themselves (for minimum contracts).
I have no idea how trade exceptions work, or how much draft picks count for in terms of salary in trades. There may be some way of shipping back draft picks to make Orlando happy, but I doubt it.
Another Variation of the trade which would be a 3 way trade of all the same parts – the difference is that we would be keeping stackhouse and trading ONLY Hump to Orlando.
It would be the same situation, except we would be using existing trade exceptions (moon, adams, Kapono and soloman trades all gave us small exceptions totaling 3.25M) and we would be taking on an additional 4M million after the exception (meaning we would likely have to renounce either Delfino OR Parker to make capspace) or we could change the trade to 2 separate ones where we trade for stack, immediately buy him out, and trade Hump (and pick if necessary) to Orlando for Hedo. The 7 million difference in salaries would be allowed because of the trade exception (total of 3.25 Million) and because we would still be under the cap for the difference (Might still have to renounce one of our FA’s).
I voted for Parker. Than realized how he’s the most un-clutch preformer on the most un-clutch team. My bad.
One of the articles on the right side of the page has us getting, Rudy Ferdanez in the Marion Sign and Trade. Now that guy must be a dreamer, but i have a question for all you. Would you guys give up a future first rounder for Rudy? Cause i know i most definitely would.
Yes I would….lottery protected.
Hell Yeah I would – Prolly anything protected outside of the top 3 or 5 picks lol
I would trade Hedo and Banks for Rudy straight up as soon as Dec 15 rolls around haha
I’ve gotta defend Dwyer’s “3 years down the road” argument here.
From this post: “He’ll be 33, Calderon will be 30, Bosh will be 28 and Andrea will be 26.”
A player is in his prime, generally, in his late 20’s. So, Calderon and Bosh should be right there and Andrea should be on his way, with DeRozan a few years behind him. Turkoglu, not so much. I’m of the mind that Turkoglu had his best year in 2007-2008 and he won’t approach those kind of numbers again. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t project Turkoglu as an above-average starting small forward in his third year with the Raptors. And he’ll still be making $10 million for the next couple of seasons after that.
Of course, this is moot if we find a way to deal him away at that point, which you mentioned as a possibility.
Play for today. Worry about 3 years from now, 3 years from now.
Gotta agree with Rye, you don’t look that far ahead into the future. Look at the current team and compare it to what we had three years ago, and three years before that..and that. Player turnover and dealing with large contract is part of the GMs job. If Indiana could unload a terrible contract like O’Neal and Zach Randolph can get traded, we won’t have a problem dealing with Turkoglu.
Sometimes fans/media get overly up with the salary cap and financial to such a degree that they forget about the basketball. Turkoglu is a good fit this year and the next, what happens after is something we can deal with when we cross that bridge.
So we’ll have three of our starters in their prime, and one a veteran that’s past his prime?
Where’s the problem?
How many teams have 5 starters, all in their ‘prime’ at the same time?
Even more, I think it’s better to have a good mix of vets, youngsters, and prime-timers, just for the sake of balance.
Nothing but rooks will get you in trouble through bone-headed plays as a result of lack of experience. Too many vets will get you in trouble through injuries and lack of athleticism.
So Charlie V gets $7mil/year and the Raps got a good deal on Bargs at $10mil/year?
Yes because Charlie V (who has peaked as a player) is half the player Bargs (particularly defensively). The extention is a very safe bet.
I dig Charlie V but I do think Bargnani has the higher ceiling. The risk of course is Bargnani reverting to his sucky form but hopefully the deal instills confidence in him and we know that that’s the #1 thing with the guy.
I understand the criticisms of the extension – why not wait till next year and let him play the market while holding the right to match, but what kind of message does that send a player? This is Colangelo’s endorsement of Bargnani as the first/second cornerstone of this franchise, whether we like it or not.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4312837
“The Knicks, for example, increasingly look as though they will be restricted to signing one maximum-salaried player that summer if the latest projections hold, which theoretically would only enhance the Cleveland Cavaliers’ chances of retaining LeBron James, given the other holes in the Knicks’ roster. New York’s original plan to lure James was founded upon trying to sign James and a second marquee free agent in 2010.”
helps us either in motivating bosh to stay or for his trade value.
Or maybe even helps us in not having to pay him Max salary, but I highly doubt that.
Assume that BC will give Bosh max money, but only on a sign and trade for several good bballers who can play team bball. No more “all-star, franchise player” for Toronto Raptors .. it just doesn’t work on a Euro-centric bball team. Get the point ….????!!!
Actually the lack of a superstar is what defines most european style play. They rely on making the right decision with the ball not isolating one player to go it all alone.
just because theres a plethora of euros on our team doesnt mean that they’re looking to play euro ball! they’re nba players from europe who have been playing in the nba! which is a totally different game. these guys are all very good NBA players who would (like any other team) benefit greatly from having a superstar around..
if they wanted to play”euroball”then they wouldve brought in a euro coach instead of JT. ie messina
btw turk has been here playing nba bball for 9 years, so lets drop this euro bs its nonsense..
And Calderon for 4 and Bargnani for 3.
These guys know what it takes to make it in the NBA. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t still be here.
According to Eddie Sefko, the Mavs believe they are about to complete the sign and trade for Marion. During his live chat he reported that he just heard that a deal was close. Scroll down to his comment at 11:52am to see what he said, followed by some more info in subsequent posts.
http://mavsblog.dallasnews.com/
Thanks for dropping by with the link. Added to the web articles.
Thanks. And I should add, thanks very much to yourself and the crew here, this is by far and away the best Raptors site on the ‘net. I’ve been a very regular reader here since I found the site mid-season last year, but I’ve never posted. Fantastic articles and discussion, you’re all to be commended!
Good find.
I’ll save you all from having to read that LONG Eddie Sefko chat (Dallas Morning News)
“Well, I have it on good authority that the Mavericks think they are on the lip of the cup with the Marion stuff.
That’s what we call in the business breaking news. And here you get that on the chat. See? it pays to be in the chat room and hang with us through some so-so answers to get this kind of information.”
“50 percent on Marion.”
“Well, the part that I can tell you about is that they feel they are close to completing the Marion deal. It’s still got some entanglements, but these things are never easy. And Gortat will be signed and sealed within hours. As for matching, Cuban, like everybody else in the league, doesn’t think Orlando will do it. But again, you never know for sure.”
You’re welcome.
Yeah and they were at 50% yesterday.
I did receive word (and RapsFan can confirm) around 12noon that they were close, but no closer than yesterday. The added pressure this afternoon and tomorrow to get something done may help…or hurt.
We’ll have live coverage of the Bargnani presser at 3PM EST.
Cap prediction, according to ESPN, for 2010-11 may be around $50m to $53m (a year ago the prediction was somewhere around $63 mill).
So a max contract (if I understand correctly) for Bosh would be at 30% of the cap with 10.5% yearly increases. His salary could start at $15 mill instead of $18+. Suddenly his scary contract isn’t looking quite so menacing. I want him back at that price.
Now they are saying with that new predicted number that Bosh may not opt out of the contract. So intead of earning a “Max” deal starting at around 15 million he would stay an extra year and get the garenteed 18. then he would settle for the new cap number the next year (hes hoping it goes up).
I personnaly hopes he opts out we offer him a max deal that starts with the 15 million. If that accually happens i thik that would have to be concidered a HUGE steal since it was expected to be around 20 million before.
Who is “they”? ESPN?
If Bosh doesn’t opt out, he’s signed for 2 more years. Can’t opt out after the 2010-2011 season, so it’s either 1 or 3 more years on the current contract.
Well, yes, 16.5 at a cap of 53 isnt so bad…
But what if 6 years down the road the cap stays the same (~53-57M)?
Bosh, with his 10.5% increases, will be earning $27.2M.
That is potentially HALF of the cap. ONE HALF.
No, I think this dropping of the cap makes the max contract a little scarier, not less scary.
If the cap is the same in 2017(!) then we’ll all be more concerned about much bigger problems. That $53 million cap is based on an NBA BRI in the worst economic climate in our lifetime.
Does anyone seriously not get excited about the potential of this lineup in 3 years?!
PG. Jose (30 years old)
SG. DeRozan (22)
SF. Turk (33)
PF. Bosh (28)
C. Bargs (27)
Bosh/Bargs/Jose in their primes. Turk as a well-rounded and efficient vet. And DeRozan as the high-flying young gun.
I definitely think there is a lot to be excited about what that team could do in 3 years versus the other teams in the East.
Rye …. and a bench filled with scrubs and D-leaguers ????
You can’t play anybody 40+ minutes a game like Smitch did at the beginning of last season with Bosh and Jose .. because he knew he was going to get fired for stating that the Raptor roster was NOT athletic, but basketball-wise … and then tried to improve his coaching record with wins at all expense.
If BC keeps Bosh with a near-max money contract, the Raptors will be crippled financially and athletically .. it’s not the Celtics …!!!!
But how else can a competitive team get formed? You need to pay your good players…or else you don’t keep your good players. If the Raps didn’t pay Bargs $10M, guaranteed some other team would have. Same with Turk (see: Portland), same with Bosh (he will get a max contract somewhere), same with Calderon. A lot of criticism directed towards BC isn’t exactly fair, as many of his signings are confined by some other team willing to pay that amount to steal the player away.
Exactly. You have to pay your best players. You worry about the starting 5 first. Bench players can be addressed on a year to year basis. Unless their name is Ginobli, there are solid bench players avilable on the cheap every year….like Ariza was, Barnes, Dooling, DJones, etc etc etc. For the most part, decent role players are a dime a dozen in the NBA, just like hot chicks. It’s just a matter of finding the right fit with your team.
IMO,
Portland will be off without Turkoglu, and highly it’s questionable at this point if the Raptors might in fact be better off … now and in the future … with some other team in the NBA on the hook to pay Mr. Bargnani in excess of $10.0 M/yr.
Yes, I agree, the starting line-up looks bright; but still, the only way to get far into the playoffs is to also build a solid bench, at least capable of three main rotations, and able to absorb in some degree the eventual injuries that might stand in the way
Of course.
I mean, I agree with the original statement by RYE…
IMO, the reason you’re liking …
Bargnani + Bosh + Turkoglu + DeRozan + Calderon
has to do with the opportunity to:
* Amass a pile of regular season W’s,
* Watch an “entertaining” brand of “high scoring” basketball, and
* Be a “competitive” team in the Eastern Conference.
not because that group of players might be good enough to get to the NBA Finals vs the other top teams in the conference.
Here’s an example for you:
A. TORONTO – Bargnani + Bosh + Turkoglu
or
B. ATLANTA – Horford + Smith + Johnson
or
C. CHARLOTTE – Okafor + Diaw + Wallace
Which one would you choose, if the goal is having a legit shot at winning it all?
In your opinion.
I’m choosing to be excited about our potential 3 years from now, not be all doom and gloom about how bad it might be. We have a talented starting 5 with the potential to grow and learn how to succeed together and how to achieve playoff success over the next 3 years when our best 3 players will be in their primes.
And I’m going with starting 5 here, not best 3 anyway. In 3 years I would absolutely envision a great rivalry with the currently young Hawks if they can keep their core together too. And if kept together, and given 3 solid rotation bench players, I absolutely see the Raps in a position to contend for the Finals versus where the other East teams may be in 3 years. Only one team can win it and I think the Raps have as promising team as any when projected out for 3 years. Too many people on here are assuming the worst in 3 years. I see the exact opposite.
And to answer your question directly, I would choose “A” :)
Depending on the pieces around them, either A) or B) would have a legitimate shot at winning it all.
Unfortunately, one of these things is not like the others.
Charlotte will go nowhere with that particular starting front court.
I would choose Atlanta, Toronto, Charlotte, in that order – Joe Johnson is my top 3 favourite player in the league.
Now Adrian Wojnarowski is also reporting that a Marion/Stackhouse deal is imminent. Perhaps where there is smoke there’s fire?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-marionmavericks070809&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
You’re just on top of things here.
I’m anxious to see what Colangelo can do with this asset. Even if all he does is turn this into a future second round pick or a small cash consideration, while scoring some points with Fegan and other players & agents for “doing the right thing for Shawn” – it will mean something for the future moves/options the team has. Also, call me an optimist but I am really hoping he finds a way to turn Banks into a useful player at slightly less salary.
Dallas seems highly motivated. Time is short, if it happens it’ll likely happen soon. I’ve definitely got one eye on this today!
“scoring some points with Fegan and other players & agents for “doing the right thing for Shawn” – it will mean something for the future moves/options the team has”
Excellent point.
Excellent point and often overlooked. A fair and competant GM is always a good selling point for any franchise. Perhaps even more so than talent or location.
Would you work hard for a shitty boss? I wouldn’t.
I do work for a shitty boss….for now
Is this why we can’t get summer league coverage?
https://summerleague.istreamplanet.com/nba/default.html?cid=532
$14.99 for the Summer League?!
I was wondering when you were going to come out of the woodwork to shit on the Barg signing !!!
Get over it,once and for all.
Your life must be consumed with Bargs…do you go over for sleepovers?
d279,
Do I ever tell you to get over your lovefest with Bargnani?
If not, why do you think that is?
—————————————
Just because certain individuals do not overflow with unwarranted admiration for the moves the Raptors have made thus far this season does not mean that those same individuals cannot see the merit of said moves.
From my perspective, it is going to be most interesting to see what the Raptors’ roster looks like at the end of October, in comparison with the other top teams in the EC.
If we are not an elite team at the end of the season does not mean it is because Andrea was give an extension this year.
I think it is safe to assume the Raps are not going to win the title next year but as we have seen in the NBA you normally make the playoffs take your lumps and eventually make that next step.
crawl….walk…..run
BC is doing what he thinks is necessary to progress as a team and an organization.
Personally I feel Jose improving his defence is just as important as any other factor for the upcoming season.
Keep your man in front of you (not talking pick and roll just don’t get blown by 7 times a quarter)
It’s amazing how many peo0ple have trouble just keeping their man in front of them. My bball team has the same problem…annoying.
Bargnani is an outstanding player and future superstar. We’re lucky to have wrapped him up. The guy is excellent on offence and solid on defense.
I can’t understand why everyone who follows the Raptors isn’t a huge Bargnani fan.
With his starting spot locked up and without having to look to the bench for approval or a coach in disarray, I expect Il Mago to contend for most improved player of the year, even-tough we always knew he had it within him.
He has proven to be anything but excellent on offense and solid on defense. If this were the case, the Raptors should have had no problem at least getting into the playoffs last year.
He’s shown flashes, especially during the last third of this past season, but that’s it. He could just as easily go into another prolonged shooting slump, and would then more than likely have reverted back to complete ‘useless’ status on the floor.
Don’t kid yourself, he’s still more project than player, and comes with a very high risk.
Some truth to that. But I’ll take a multi-skilled project that averaged 19.8 pts over the last 46 games when given minutes and a consistent role who was drafted with #1 overall talent and is just 23 and is willing to work on his game.
He is no longer a jump shooting big ben. Don’t get me wrong he is not a post-up player, but as we have noticed he like to drive to the rim. The first 2 and a half years, his decisions were horrible (timing, direction, head down etc) But as he has matured, so has his decision making. Opponents know he can shoot the lights out, so cram him, but he can blow right by – make the pass or finish with authority. There are not too many players in the league that are as talented. Judging by the length of the contract, we got a bargain!
What is the salary the big turk in Utah making?
9 mil. 10 mil sounds pretty good now.
You honestly can’t understand why “everyone who follows the Raptors isn’t a huge Bargnani fan”? Were you a big Bargnani fan in December? Or during last year?
I appreciate him being here long term but its not without some skepticism that one accepts the deal. It hinges on the assumption that he’s turned it around permanently and isn’t going to revert to VL status. This guy’s about as hot and cold as it gets so forgive me for not being 100% certain and diving in head first into the Bargnani celebration moshpit.
+1. I’m a huge AB fan. Absolutely.
yea well suck his spaghetti dick then
While I do love Bargnani, he isn’t “solid” on defense. He plays good defense 1 on 1, and pretty terrible team defense. When Bargnani actually played good team defense, the Raps would immediately go on one of their big runs. It was clear watching him, though, that he had no clear idea what to do on defending the pick and roll. Until that changes, he’ll be exploitable.
It also frustrates some people, and thats why some people don’t like Bargnani.
On the plus side, he is smart, and seems motivated to improve, hopefully he’s watched lots of tape, and is able to dramatically improve his PnR D and his rebounding.
Dallasnews are reporting that B.C is trying to include banks to the deal so we can avoid renouncing defino/parker. If B.C manages to pull this off I promise I will not critize him anymore..
He’s been trying to do that for two days now, there’s a story linked in the blog too. If he pulls that off he’ll get an A rating for the summer and an overall B-.
dealing banks at this point would be a minor miracle.
As the LA Lakers will attest … if your team is in need of a minor miracle what it needs to do is pick up the phone and call Chris Wallace.
That was a major miracle. The Gasol trade was the steal of the decade.
Hey… aren’t we glad we aren’t Memphis?
Carter was the steal of the decade.
You mean to Orlando or to New Jersey?
agreed
Is $50 mill over 5 years a good deal for Bargnani? Based on potential, probably, but he still plays a relatively low efficiency, high risk, high reward style of ball for a center. I am sure we will see him continue to improve over the next couple of years, but I think that Bargnani in the future will be similar to Bargnani in the past; he will be an up and down player that gets hot and cold at times because the effectiveness of his game overall depends very heavily on whether or not he is hitting the 3. I don’t think we have seen his ceiling, but at the same time, it is possible we have not seen his floor either.
In his first season, not much was expected of Bargs but he shone several times with his 3 pt. shooting that excited the fans. In his second season, he was asked to post up and to attempt a mid-range jumper .. both of which he attempted to do learning on the job in the NBA. In his third season, he was expected to bring his game together, which he did with varying success.
WTF do you expect from a very young 7 foot Euro player entering the NBA and having to learn on the job. He has potential, and eventually it will emerge .. as did Dirk’s game. Seems many here start with the feeeeling they just don’t like Bargs and then base their complaints on those emotions.
Obviously BC and Triano think highly of Bargs future potential .. and I prefer to accept their assessment rather than the emotional blurtings of some on this fine forum.
If anybody has peaked with the Raptors, it’s Bosh … and the only way he will be more effective is if he gets on another team with somebody like Lebron or Wade dishing the ball off to him standing 18 feet away from the hoop and lobbing jump shots.
So far, nobody has made any valid arguments why Bosh is worth max money, other than he was drafted with Lebron and Wade … otherwise it’s all media hype.
Bosh’s ability to get to the charity stripe alone makes him nearly worth it.
Add in the other aspects of his game (great mid-range game, quick first step, solid defensive rebounding, decent shot-blocking, hustle & grit, good attitude, etc…) and you have yourself a recipe for a sure-fire max money player.
While he may be a little bit overhyped in the Canadian media, he is far from overhyped in the NBA in general.
Even if Bosh has peaked (which I think is premature), his overall game is so far above Bargnani it’s incomparable. His rebounding, defence (specifically off-the-ball), passing out of doubles (which Bargs has never dealt with), foul-drawing, and mid-range game are all heaps better than Barg’s currently. I honestly can’t envision a situation where Bargs becomes as good as Bosh, as much as I hope for it to happen.
I can envision it, but I have an overactive imagination.
Bosh for a combo of Scola-Battier-Hayes
Bargs – Scola – Turk – DeRozan – Jose
Hayes – Evans – Battier – Delfino – Ukic
lets really play some euro-ball, Scola is a much better post option than Bosh, this frees up some room on the outside for Turk and Bargs to allow for more movement. We add the defensive specialist and three point shooter Battier and have a good post defender in Hayes off the bench
I’ve thought about possible moves for Bosh – and this really seems like the best
Hou could run
Yao – Bosh – Ariza – Mcgrady – Brooks (when or if Yao returns)
and Bosh would probably be happy to go back and play and Texas, playing with talent he could probably be talked into staying
Birdman signs a 5 year 25 million deal with denver…. wow… he will be almost 36 at the end of that career. I dont understand why denver with their cap situation would spend that much, there is no way he would get that much on the open market. Reminds me of the Rashard contract.
As for the Raps,
I have been very skeptical of the Hedo signing from the beginning. I keep trying to convince myself of it but i have that nagging feeling that we aren’t going to be able to stop anyone on the defensive end. Im OK with the Bargnani signing, as I still hold out hope he will reach his potential. My problem with his game is how inefficient it seems to be, his threes take him away from the basket and make it harder to keep his FG% high. Bosh is the only proven rebounder in the starting lineup. We have no idea what to expect from DD. And the fact that we are relying on a rookie and min contract guys spells a death sentence for our bench.
However, i do agree that i do like that we have 4 relatively solid guys signed for the next few years. For no other reason then i think them or their contracts are a nice moveable size at around 10M each.
This Mavs deal seems like toronto is just going to end up with a pick or some cash. Getting rid of banks would make me feel much better about the raps immediate future. Hated the contract at the time, hate it now. Im interested to see what will happen though, Memphis is involved right now, and apparently there might be a fourth team by the time everything is done too. Four team deals don’t seem to happen to often, my worry is that if there is a fourth team needed to complete the transaction that it just won’t happen. Im just waiting for this whole thing to fall apart to be honest. It is hard enough to get 2 GMs to agree on something never mind 4.
Birdman is an investment for Denver I think, they’ll more than make that back on jersey sales, ad campaigns, etc. He’s arguably the most popular player on that team behind Carmelo.
The average salary in the NBA is around 4-5 million, that being said paying The Birdman the average salary to do above average things is not so bad. Who would you rather pay 5 million to 1)Marcus Banks or 2)Chris Anderson? Easy choice right? I would gladly take him on my team at that price and for those years.
PS i really wish there was a way to highlight posts you havnt read yet, sorting through these threads is really annoying… btw. the like/dislike links disappear after you click them and the red/green number next to them disappears as well.
Agreed on that.
Sifting thru 200 comments, most of them you’ve read before, can be a pain.
… which is the reason that Regular mode is the one that actually works best. *smile*
Something is in the works that will give you that option. Or something like it.
Meanwhile if you just switch to regular comments view you’ll see the comments in chronological order. Also marking a comment with a rating of -1 will make the rating disappear since it is zero. Or marking dislike to a comment of rating 1. This feature is very beta and will likely be taken out.
I like it actually. You should keep it or something like it.
Who among you actually thinks that Chris Bosh has played his best basketball to this point in his career when he’s been used as:
A. The team’s Power Forward
B. The team’s Center
[Arsenalist, perhaps, this should be the next formal poll you run.]
Pointless!
The argument about whether Bosh is a 4 or Bargs is a 4 or Bosh is a 5 or Bargs is a 5 is a complete and utter waste of time.
They both have similar skill sets, they both play the same position.
Maybe they are both centres, maybe they are both power forwards, who knows, who cares…
This isn’t cosom hockey, when a player is on the floor they can go wherever suits them best.
THEY ARE BOTH HYBRID FORWARDS! GET OVER IT!
They don’t have similar skill-sets and they don’t play a similar position.
When you hear someone like Jeff Van Gundy or Hubie Brown refer to either of these two players as a hybrid forward, please let me know.
Sorry … I should actually amend what I wrote here initially.
They don’t have similar skill-sets and they don’t play a similar position … when they are on the court together.
I don’t need JVG or Hubie to tell me what to think. They’re interchangeable, they defend whoever’s the best match-up, not the slot a guy fills in fantasy. Honestly, the entire argument is pointless. It’s like saying Maurice Evans should play 3 while Joe Johnson plays 2. It makes absolutely no difference.
Maurice Evans should play #2/OG while Joe Johnson plays #3/SF.
In the NBA … little details mean a lot more than the average fan realizes.
What positions do Ray Allen and Paul Pierce play?
[Hint: They are not inter-changeable pieces. One of them plays one position, while his counterpart plays the other. This isn't high school ball. This isn't college ball. This isn't FIBA ball. This is the NBA. There is no other league in the world like the NBA.]
Marc,you are wasting your breath.
I know. I can’t help myself.
Food For Thought
Now that Bargnani has signed a 5-yr extension … Does he become a more valuable trading chip for the Raptors to use in an effort to acquire the right pieces to put with Bosh, Calderon, DeRozan [?] and Turkoglu?
Frank talk:
If Bargnani plays at or slightly above his last 40 games of 2008-2009 form this year, ie, scores 19-21 ppg, he will be a hot get going into next offseason.
7 foot centers who can score 20+ while dragging a big to the 3 point line and putting the ball on the floor are generally worth 10 mil, so yes, I think a good year from Bargnani will put his worth at a place where we can realistically talk about trading him for equal value or more.
Today, we’re discussing potential, and its hard to win those trades.
Finally …
An audio clip of Bryan Colangelo stating clearly exactly what I’ve said about the perceived quality of the great City of Toronto according to the top free agents in the NBA:
[link in weblinks]
I won’t have to search for evidence speaking to the accuracy of my perspective any more.
Bosh is going to get max money. Bosh is unquestionably worth the max. There is no question about this. Big men capable of going for 25 and 10 for extended stretches are blocks you build around, and if not us, then someone else will happily build around him, or add him to whatever they’ve built already.
Don’t fool yourself.
This needs to be stated again aparently. As clearly Raps Republic sespite having the best site on the web as no issue with certain people repeating the same junk over and over again:
Bosh plays power forward.
Until you become a coach or a GM he will continue to be a PF
Walk on by to a legit topic.
Maybe Raptors republic should give warnings for people who constantly repeat themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again
I am just saying enough is enough.
P.S I love the dislike and like parts you guys have added maybe certain people should notice there scores and move on instead of constantly saying we should trade Andrea and Move Bosh to the 5.
He just signed a new 5 year extention its time to move on and accept reality.
Go Raps!!!!
it is what it is,
I notice that you haven’t answered this question yet.
————————————–
Who among you actually thinks that Chris Bosh has played his best basketball to this point in his career when he’s been used as:
A. The team’s Power Forward
B. The team’s Center
————————————–
IMO, your answer would be most interesting to hear.
League office conference call tomorrow between Toronto, Dallas, Memphis re: Marion.
Get up and eat your breakfast, kids.
Macy,
Some of us have been saying for a long time now that a Max Contract to Chris Bosh still leaves plenty of room for the Raptors to construct a roster which is actually capable of Winning a NBA championship one day.
IMO, the red-herring for the last 12+ months has been the perception that Bosh’s contract would be a major impediment in this regard.
The fact is … it isn’t, and it won’t be.
If the GM of the Raptors does a good job … it has been the case for a long time now that … there is no legit reason why this organization cannot be amongst the very best in the NBA.
It’s the quality of the basketball decisions which matter the most. Nothing more and nothing less than that.
Kobe Bryant’s Salary 2009: $23,034,375
Other players on LA Lakers:
17 Andrew Bynum C 21 7-0 285 $12,500,000
5 Jordan Farmar PG 22 6-2 180 UCLA $1,947,240
2 Derek Fisher PG 34 6-1 210 Arkansas-Little Rock $5,048,000
16 Pau Gasol FC 29 7-0 250 $16,452,000
28 D.J. Mbenga C 28 7-0 255 $959,111
6 Adam Morrison SF 24 6-8 205 Gonzaga $5,257,229
21 Josh Powell FC 26 6-9 240 North Carolina State $959,111
18 Sasha Vujacic SG 25 6-7 205 $5,000,000
4 Luke Walton SF 29 6-8 235 Arizona $4,840,000
9 Sun Yue SG 23 6-9 205 $736,420
As you can see, its very possible to make a championship roster while paying a player the max, and further, Bosh wont be making nearly that 23 million for a long long time.
Khandor I have no problem answering that question.
I think Bosh can play effective as a center in small spurts and has proven to do so.
I think Bosh has proven he is one of the best power forwards in the game.
I believe Bosh is best suited for to play the majority of time on the basketball court at the power forward postion.
Also of comical note: They are even paying someone worse than Marcus Banks more money than Marcus Banks himself.
You forgot two important pieces: Ariza and Odom! Or Artest now
What the…?!? Morrison makes $5M??? Now there is a Banks-like contract if I’ve ever seen one…
Well Bosh ain’t Kobe, but I do totally agree with you.
its very possible to make a championship roster while paying a player the max,
if the player being payed is kobe bryant .
this is chris bosh were talking about … 23ppg
hes obviously a great player, but he doesn’t deserve the same money as kobe, lebron, and wade who all deserve max contracts .
bosh can win a title for sure,
but he can’t lead a team to a title ,
if hes the secondary option on a team then that team would most likely win the title
He’s on his rookie contract, he was 3rd overall pick, so his contract is for ridiculous $$
Exactly…pretty much every team has a bad contract or two on it…even the Lakers.
oh and by the way ,
in the 2006-2007 season zach randolph averaged 23.6 and 10.1,
similar stats to chris bosh ,
yeah i know hes pretty dumb and doesn’t have a great attitude,
but even if he wasn’t like that
do you think he deserved a max contract? (which he didn’t get)
If Zach Randolph wasn’t a team killing cancer, he’d HAVE a max contract. (And maybe a shot at a title, as he might still be on the Blazers.)
it is what it is,
Ironically, your supposed answer to the question asked doesn’t actually answer the specific question at all.