The Grand Turk lands in Toronto. What’s not to like about the talent coming our way? The question that remains is what follow-up moves Colangelo will make in order to fill out four empty roster spots. Yeah, four. Let’s recap:
Starters: Calderon, DeRozan, Turkoglu, Bosh, Bargnani
Bench: Evans, Humphries, Ukic
That’s 8 accounted for roster spots. 12-8 = 4. In case you were wondering what happened to the rest of the bodies, here they are: O’Bryant, Banks and Jawai. Yeah boys, we’re pretty thin as things stand today. Remember how last year we made the mistake of “concentrating” talent into 7 spots (of which included Kapono – har har) and got bit by the depth bug. Well, we’re in danger of falling into that trap again unless Colangelo manages to translate Marion’s bird rights, Parker and Graham (LOL) into something that can dribble a ball without banging it off their forehead.
So how to fill those roster spots, here are some things to remember:
- The deal is approximately 5yr/$53M.
- We don’t have a mid-level exception. You only get that if you’re over the cap. Since we were under it when the summer started and will cross it only when delighting the Turk, we don’t get an MLE. Yeah, sucks.
- The Magic are not going to sign-and-trade for Turkoglu. They don’t care about him, they’re hoping Vince left his panties in NJ much like how NJ hoped Vince left his panties in Toronto.
- Shawn Marion apparently turned down a 4yr/32M deal which is a lot like me turning down a one-night stand with Megan Fox. I highly doubt any team will offer him anything close to that but here’s hoping a crazy-ass GM is drunk on Drambuie and wants to sign-and-trade. The money’s on him settling for a mid-level exception, though.
- Parker/Delfino. The Celtics are pondering on Parker but we’ll be lucky to get anything for him. Delfino is someone you just flat out sign at this point without worrying about a sign-and-trade since he actually is a serviceable backup. He played for us under Mitchell which is like saying a violinist was being conducted by a drunk Homer Simpson. Give Delfino another chance, he’ll make ya proud.
Here’s why we’ll need to renounce our free-agents before we sign Turkoglu:
The Raptors have to renounce Marion, Parker and Delfino because, even though they are free agents, they still count against the team’s cap, at varying amounts depending on how long they’ve been in the league. Free agents stay on their team’s cap until their team either re-signs them, or renounces them, or the player signs with another team. Renouncing means that the team can no longer exceed the cap to re-sign the player, or use any cap exceptions like the mid-level exception to re-sign them. The players could conceivably be re-signed by their old team, but would have to be signed using existing cap room or minimum salary amounts, and in this case, Toronto’s plan is to use all of its cap room (about $10 million) on Turkoglu.
This is why we’re hamstrung when it comes to sign-and-trade options:
What I mean is this: To sign Hedo, the team needs roughly $10-million available to them below the salary cap. To get there the team will renounce their rights to Shawn Marion, Anthony Parker and Carlos Delfino – this is well-covered territory. However, a sign-and-trade scenario can only take one of two forms, neither of which appears available to Toronto.
The first is that before the Raptors sign Hedo, they sign-and-trade one (or more) of their free agents. They cannot do this because the money coming back their way would eat into the $10-million needed to sign Turkoglu. The second option would be that they sign Hedo, commit all available salary cap space to him, and then sign-and-trade one of their former players. This, too, does not work because the team has lost the Bird rights of their players and can therefore not exceed the salary cap to sign them in the first place. They also cannot trade one of these players pre-signing Turkoglu for a trade exception since all exceptions count against the team’s cap.
Hopefully that cleared things up, if it didn’t, try this from Raptors Forum:
Signing Hedo will take up all (or almost all) the cap space. If we had re-signed Marion and gone over the cap, we would’ve been able to use the MLE since we had Marion’s bird rights. Since we are spending all the cap space on a new player, we cannot use the MLE. Note also that there is quite a bit of room between the cap and hitting the luxury tax, which is designed to let teams re-sign their existing players, so there is really no chance of us hitting the luxury tax.
If we sign Turkoglu, there are only a few options:
1) Biannual exception; should be around $1.5-1.8 million
2) Minimum contracts
3) Sign-and-trade AP, Delfino, or Marion for a pick and a trade exception. Then flip the pick and trade exception for a player. In a sign-and-trade, we cannot take on any salary because it would prevent us from signing Turkoglu, so that’s why we would have to make use of a trade exception.BC must have something else up his sleeve, or else this roster is going to be extremely lacking in depth.
Basically, we can’t take back any salary in a sign-and-trade since it would put us over the cap and not allow us to sign Turkoglu, and we can’t execute a sign-and-trade after signing Turkoglu since we won’t have the Bird rights for our free agents (seeing how we renounced them to free up space). We have to hope that a team is willing to trade us a trade exception or draft picks (which could help us in a subsequent trade where we exchange bodies). The other options are 1) sign players with minimum contracts 2) find a taker for someone like Marcus Banks or Kris Humphries.
For completeness I have to mention that there is a third magical unlikely option. That’s where Hedo defers the BULK of his contract into the later years and gets paid something like 3M his first year which would technically keep us under the cap and allow us to sign more free agents. But he’s not crazy so its not really an option. Sorry for wasting your time.
Now, BC is not an idiot and will not repeat last year’s mistake. He knows the situation and has to have something planned for the remaining three or four roster spots. I don’t think he’ll look to Europe to sign Will Solomon 2.0 again which leaves a trade as the likeliest option. So go ahead and rip that trade checker to pieces. I also suspect that we’ll be losing another draft pick in a trade if one does happen.
If you really think about it, it’s not that Hedo move that has hamstrung us, it’s the O’Neal trade that’s still haunting us. We traded the 17th pick (who could’ve filled a roster spot this year), Rasho (very serviceable big man) and T.J Ford (who could’ve been converted into a body) for O’Neal who we later gave up (including Moon) for Marion (who we are likely to lose for nothing). And I’m not even going to bring up Marcus Banks and the first-rounder. Is the O’Neal trade worse than the Vince Carter trade? You bet.
So Bryan, the ball’s still in your court.
Back to Hedo for a moment. Here’s his attorney talking about how Toronto crept into the picture:
“It’s hard to pinpoint a turning point,” Babby said. “Toronto kind of jumped in at the last minute with a proposal that gave him pause–not so much from a financial standpoint, but…they hadn’t made a formal offer until then. I had to communicate that to Hedo, and that gave him pause.”
You know, a real clever GM would’ve seen Turkoglu’s ability before he blew up with the Magic and acquired him for nothing when he was with the Spurs rather than splurging over him. This guy was practically begging to play for the Raptors, pity his last two seasons weren’t in a Raptors uniform. The pros and cons of acquiring him are well documented and there will always be naysayers for any signing, but at some point you have to roll the dice and acquire a finished product, especially if you’re trying to get our superstar to stay put. Here’s how I see the good and bad of this trade.
Pros:
- Size: At 6′ 10″ he is a matchup nightmare for just about anyone. His improved post-up game and ability to finish in traffic gives the Raptors a potential night in and night out double-team threat other than Chris Bosh. No more giving the ball to Bosh and watching him devour the shot-clock like a carnivore. Turkoglu can create his own shot and setup teammates, he’s the point-forward that we hoped Delfino would be.
- Take a break Jose: Hedo is an excellent passer off the pick ‘n roll which we so like to run with Bosh. Usually these sequences ended with Calderon passing it back to Bosh at the perimeter and yelling something incoherent in Spanish, but with the ball in Hedo’s hands he can a) finish the play or b) find options since his height increases his vision, he showed a real ability to find shooters with the defense clamping down.
- Shooter: He shot 36% from three-point range last year and is a career 38% shooter. Nothing terribly great but he is streaky and has the ability to take over the game with his outside shooting when hot. The good part about that is that he doesn’t settle or remain content with the jumper.
- Clutch: Were you tired of watching Chris Bosh try to play hero and fail over and over again? Well, now we have a ball handler who’ll be willing to take a shot instead of trying to find a scapegoat. No offense to Jose but our fourth quarter offense under him was nothing short of watching a baby get asphyxiated. Adding another ball-handler who isn’t afraid to hoist it will only help.
- Quickness vs Skill: Marion’s game is predicated on quickness and Hedo’s is not. Both would’ve been 35 in the deals that were offered and I’d rather have a guy who isn’t so dependent on the first step since that’s the first thing to go. Hedo’s not getting any shorter and he strikes me as a wily old veteran who utilizes his mind and lives off pump-fakes, jab steps, and hesitation moves. It’s no surprise that he’s gotten better with age, kinda like Cindy from the Rail (email AltRaps for photos).
- T.O: A player chose Toronto over an American city, that too Portland and Brandon Roy.
Cons
- Too much money/years. Paying anyone over 30 more than 10M a year will raise some eyebrows and there’s a chance that Hedo’s over the hill. The Magic got two great years out of him and acquired him when his stock was at an all-time low. Are the Raptors too late in this acquisition? No doubt, but that’s why the Magic GM is considered a good one. Colangelo’s buying this stock when it’s at its highest and when something is at its apex, it can only go down. Unless its Google. Hedo’s averaged 17/5 and 20/6 in his last two seasons, the chances of him repeating those feats are low. Playing with a dominant center like Dwight Howard makes one look good and Turkoglu benefited greatly from the attention defenses paid to Howard, it remains to be seen whether Bosh can do the same for him.
- Defense. Shawn Marion is a better defender. We will need to provide more help to Turkoglu than we would to Marion. Is Hedo a bad defender? No, he defended Paul Pierce, Lebron James and Kobe Bryant in these playoffs and used his size impeccably. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to negate the offensive player’s drives but uses his size exceptionally well and can afford to give space while still challening the shot. For what its worth, Caron Butler will have a tougher time hitting game-winners over Hedo than Marion.
- Cap: He’s going to be occupying a big chunk of the cap which definitely reduced the flexibility we might’ve had, however a starting SF was never going to come cheap and we should deal with it. Can’t complain about everything, fact is that the NBA is an expensive market. Unless you want to sign Jamario Moon and his sinful grin, you’re going to have to shell out cash.
- Rebounding: If he starts with Bosh and Bargnani he’ll have to step up his rebounding, or at least box out. Bargnani is atrocious and gets pinned too often to be counted on to clear the glass or box-out. Hedo will have to utilize every inch of his big frame to help out Bosh and so far he’s never proved himself to be a great defensive rebounder. I sense a Bosh-Evans-Turkoglu frontline to get heavy minutes.
Overall, it’s a good move once you consider team needs. Sure, there’s a chance that he’ll become a burden in years 4 and 5 but that’s too far into the future to speculate upon. Look at it this way: if there’s interest around the league in a 34 year old Anthony Parker, there’ll definitely be interest in a 34 year old Hedo Turkoglu. It’s now up to the ingenuity and creativity of our GM to fill out the rest of the roster properly, something he failed to do last year.
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Im wondering if Turk will take 7-8 mill during the first year to allow us to sign other free agents.
Why would he not take less money in the first year(s)…he gets the same in the end. Why would he care???
This is my own speculation but I don’t think BC would have signed Turk without the ability to give him a small year 1 salary.
I agree. Hedo knows we need to re-sign either Delfino or Parker to maintain some competent depth behind him and rookie DeRozan.
Unless he wants Douby starting Hedo needs to accept $6-7M for the first year.
I thought this would be good too but turns out it’s just not possible under the league rules. Free agents can only have salaries increase by 8% at most per year, so for a $53M contract over 5 years the best they could do is:
Year 1: 9.03M
Year 2: 9.75M
Year 3: 10.53M
Year 4: 11.37M
Year 5: 12.28M
Due to rounding this adds up to only 52.96M, but you get the point. Best case you can do is save about $1M this year on a sliding scale.
In other words, like this article states.. BC has got some work to do.
I think Hedo and Delfino are both going to be Raptors come to openning season. I also hope B.C. signs a guy like Matt Barnes or Dahntay Jones to min contract
thanks – good article
I see you’ve got a rather large brain there, mr. byran.
Arse … reading your commentary, I cycle between total agreement, LOLing or wanting to poke my eyes out … please continue with your supercalifragalisticexpialanalyses.
If Hedo loads the back end of his contract terms to help BC get under the cap, that would essentially force him into completing his 5 year term with the Raptors, because few teams would want to trade for him if he gets uber-expensive in say 2011-12.
Cash in the hand is like … tits in yer face ..??!!!
An excellent picture Arsenalist, of where Colangelo is at with the CAP and Turkoglu’s contract. Have to hope the forecasts are correct and the Cap stays flat or a small increase for this year.
Unfortunately with Marion not facing reality and re-signing in a situation tailermade for him, it has really screwed up BC’s plans. I do not think he could wait any longer, or pay Marion what he wanted, and so the only option was to go for the Turk. I feel that 5/$53 for him vs 4/$36 for Marion is money much better spent.
Marion, I hope he has to sign for the MLE or less, and fails with his new team, has really made things extremely difficult for the Raptors.
As far as rebounding and defense go, the addition of Evans and DeRozan and a defensive coach, Iavaroni, will be an improvement over last year, and Bosh with less pressure to be the only big scorer should be able to put more effort into rebounds. Bosh must have a big year!!
What BC shoud be looking for are a SG and SF who can defend wings as well as score in back up roles, and a SG capable of starting. I would anticipate Bosh, Bargnani, Turkoglu, and Caldron to all play 31/36 minutes on a regular basis.
Marion has really pissed me off…I hope he fails miserably too. Obviously, he was trying to pry too much from Colangelo (whatever it was…4 years at $32 mil??? give me a break). He knew that BC would be in a worse situation if he had to do a signing then Turk, as he would be faced with no mid-level exception for filling out the roster. Apparently, BC called Marion’s bluff on the salary negotiations, and now both the Raps and Marion are screwed. It would’ve been nice if they could’ve worked together…
regarding the SG and SF needs you mentioned, I wonder if BC can structure Hedo’s contract to sign Klieza with the cap room, and trade Humphries for a 2nd to make room to aquire Delfino. That would give you your scoring backups and a SG capable of starting.
list of free agents from nba.com http://www.nba.com/freeagents/2009/
I am visibly sick to the stomach right now… I just heard the “good” news. Hello J-killa 2.0.
This seems like BC is playing the part of the teen who got shot down by the chick he really wanted/needed (Marion) and got all pouty and immediately asked out the village slut (Turk) to make them jealous/rebound his reputation/ego…. I really hope it doesn’t happen. Wrong player for this team. Period.
There is any legal requirement that the offer sheet we have offered to Hedo need to be signed on July 8th ?
IF the paper can be filled let’s say in august, this give plenty of time for Colangelo to S&T Parket / Marion.
S&T trade for Turk?
Otis Smith said he did not want to do that.
Well I’ve been mulling it over and am somewhat less depressed by the notion – but ultimately the move is rated by the quality of a bench BC can scrounge up with minimum contracts… It should be 10 times better than the soloman/adams signings since there should be a boatload of guys who “fall through the cracks” like:
Gerald Green, Delfino, Matt Barnes, Dahntay Jones, Rasho, Pops, Joel Anthony (better than Pops), Kieth Bogans, Joey Graham, Walter Hermann, Kleiza, Desmond Mason, Moon, etc
Maybe the recent trend of Toronto aquiring players who WANT to be here (Derozan, Turk, etc) might help get some decent talent to fill out our bench.
Excellent, Excellent article on the Hedo signing.
At first glance, it really doesnt make any sense signing Hedo for such big money, but this article really puts it into perspective.
I think behind all the money and position-filling, at the end of the day, the last Pro item is what makes it all worth it. Id rather have a player choose the team and big money because of where its at, rather than a guy take the money and play for a city which he doesnt like. Marion already stated before that he will not resign with Toronto, so if we did sign him, he’d probably be playing unmotivated every night.
I think there’s a good chance Turkoglu will not be as good as he was in Orlando. He wasn’t great to begin with but he was definitely underrated and capable in many phases of the game. I think he’s really going to miss Howard though. What gets underplayed is just how important Howard’s picks are to his effectiveness. He’s well known not to be an iso guy. He needs picks to drive to the basket and more than just regular picks, he needs the crunching, brutal ones that Howard laid out for him out. He needs guys to be staggered and picked off as oppose to say someone like Roy who can beat his man off the dribble in isolations. If he has a more difficult time getting to the hoop dribbling off screen, then that’s going to drop his game a lot.
Defensively, Turkoglu is overrated because of Howard. You don’t notice that his guy got by him as much because Howard is there to protect the rim. He’s not going to have that luxury anymore. When guys beat him off the dribble, points are going to go on the board and his defensive shortcomings will draw attention.
The thing about Turkoglu on Toronto is we don’t have Howard out there to clean up all of his misses, of which there will be plenty.
So now we have three big guys jacking it up from the perimeter at rather unimpressive rates of efficiency and no one in there to rebound other than Bosh, while Calderon stands around doing absolutely nothing. Just brilliant, BC.
great well thought out blog. thank you for the rationality as opposed to some of the knee jerk reactions elsewhere.
I agree that we should sign Delfino, but how on earth will we do that? Using the exception? And can we still sign Rasho for the vet’s minimum?
He made close to 9 million last year, why would he play for the minimum?
Because nobody’s going to pay him 9M again, just like nobody’s gong to pay Marion 17M again. I’m guessing Rasho is there to be had, he seemed like he enjoyed playing in Toronto, what with the multicultural thing and all. If he comes back we’ll have Delfino, Calderon, Bargnani, Rasho, Turkoglu and Roko, that’s a nice little UN committee.
Come on massive fan base!!!! Following in 7 international countries (don’t forget Aussie Nate Jawai)
Don’t forget the US contingent.
Don’t forget Carl English on the Summer League team.
wah.
wah.
I bumped into Rasho and spoke to him for a couple of minutes when he was still a raptor.. He said he really loves the city so a Vet Minimum is a strong possibility… This was a year before he got traded. He can play the Jake Voshkul role. Plus his family resides in Toronto..
I am still thinking the best option is banks + cash (or hump + cash and keep pops) to a team that is not contending and looking to save $$.
here is a list of people from teams that are not contending/losing money and have salaries in a range where something might be able to be done. in no particular order (and of course not all are reasonable or desirable but I tried not to stretch too far):
keyon dooling
jarvis hayes
bruce bowen
raja bell
antonio daniels
morris peterson
rasual butler
corey brewer
thabo sefelosha
ricky davis
francisco garcia
is banks + $3m for raja bell so crazy for charlotte? works in the trade machine. I know I love it on this end.
remember, not only does BC have the cash from the miami deal, he now also has $7-10m more between cap and tax that he will be saving MLSE.
as a season ticket holder I think I will email them and let them know I am expecting them to spend it!
Why in the world would charlotte trade Raja Bell for Jabroni Banks?
cash. pure and simple. they are not winning this year, he is a veteran and they are losing lots of money. the same reason teams sell 1st round picks.
I completely agree with enoss. I like hump’s production off the bench but our best bet in converting talent from the power forward position into the 2 and 3 guards, is by trading him for an important two-way player off the bench who can stretch the floor with 3s and then sign Pops on a min deal.
On top of your list I would add some minimum player deals available through free agency that can complete our roster better at the wing position. I think about Grant Hill(his wife is from Toronto and title contenders have not offered him anything yet). I think of Szczerbiak, Bowen, Barnes, Bogans and even a Shannon Brown, Dooling or C.J. Watson for our backup point.
All in all, I think that the raptors can complement the talented starters with decent help off the bench to the point that we can fight for homecourt playoff spots and 2nd round in the playoffs just like the magic were doing against Detroit years ago.
2010 Year is when ultimately we will be able to make the charge for contending in the conference, because I expect us to use the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions as well as veteran minimums to bring in legit talent in the Michael Pietrus mould around our ball club. signing Bosh and extending Bargnani would be still daring isues to resolve, but if we perform and win some next year, I think the big bucks would be ready to be spent by our ownership. (Right? Am I just a fan for thinking that?)
Grant Hill’s wife is not from Toronto. She is from Windsor. Can we please stop acting like a fat girl who everytime a guy gives her a second look starts planning a wedding ceremony. Toronto is not the first choice for most free agents for one reason. Their basketball team stinks. Has stunk for years. Enough of the whoa-is-me crap. It is sickening. Everytime a player says anything positive about this city or knows someone who lives in Canada, we have people saying we should sign them to a contract (Hello, CV31!) regardless if they fit with this team. Toronto is not a fat girl. Toronto is phat, girl.
How do we use Joey Graham? We didn’t tender an offer to him, so wouldn’t we have to re-sign him and have him hit our cap again?
well we just renounced his bird rights. (we didn’t even choose give a qualifying offer thus making him an unrestricted free-agent)
all players as you know count for the cap until: they are signed or if they are renounced.
“As detailed in question number 30, free agents continue to be included in team salary. By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right until the following June 30 to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 19) to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player, but they must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception.” – Coon FAQ
“By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 19) to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player, but they must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception. After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement” – Coon FAQ
“A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because they would have to waive him, after which they wouldn’t be able to use Bird rights.” – Coon FAQ
Makes sense.
If we do re-sign Joey and trade him, it won’t be for much since no team would want to take that salary on. Inconsequential then.
between your article and Chishilm’s the Raps’ finanacial situation is clear but very disturbing on a couple of levels.
1st the roster is set to be fleshed out with Solomon and Adams part 2 – not pretty.
2nd if not 1 than Bosh/Bargs is being moved in a 3 for 1 at least and diluting talent is never a good thing.
I keep reading bloggers and columnist referring to BC as smart, intelligent, very capable etc. yet his moves the last couple years have left me feeling quite the opposite.
Bosh and Banks to NYK for David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Chris Duhon + 2010 Pick…
or we’re trading Calderon.
I agree though, he can’t afford to have Jose+Hedo+Bosh+Bargs signed to their ‘max’ contracts together. One or two of those four have to be moved.
Good summary of the pros/cons. The good thing is that the only “con” that is worrisome that can’t be addressed by good coaching and hard work, is the cap space. And I have to believe that BC has a plan to adequately complete the roster. There are options out there and hopefully a piece or two more falls into place for us.
Tim Chisholm is the best Raps columnist out there.
Nah. Chisholm is a close second behind Arsenalist.
Grange
I’m trying to talk myself into this. We pretty much have to move someone now or filling out the roster with scrubs.
I keep saying this … you need a Chartered Accountant to weave your way through this f@*king Cap crap.
Can we use that 3 million (that we acquired in trade) along with something else, in order to acquire a player. Can we trade Humps & the 3 million, along with maybe a trade exception? How we get that exception, I have no clue — is it possible through a sign & trade?
Could we package all that for a sign & trade with Orlando. They’ve already said no, but everyone has their price.
It’s my understanding that BC came in at the last minute (to sign Turk) … is it because some options came together, that made the signing possible – avoiding another season with a weak Bench.
As for all the criticism about Turk, I think his ability to provide the Raptors with another “good” ball handler (a sort of PG/SF combo) takes away the pressure we felt with Ukic being tossed into the frying pan so early. Of course, Smitch being Smitch didn’t help Roko’s rookie season either. And will AB benefit – he might get more passes now, instead of CB getting the ball in the post and doing his impression of …. well, nothing, and then shooting.
Great post, Arsenalist. I especially like drunk Homer Simpson part.
Delfino can shoot lights out, he’d be great signing. Raja Bell is completely opposite, he’s totally drained and ready for retirement. Walter Herrmann is almost surely going back to Spain. Matt Barnes would and Rasho would be great pick, but no way they would play for minimum, their price is much higher, especially Rasho’s in a lack of centers all over the league. Out of other players mentioned in comments, only Thabo Sefelosha and Cisco Garcia are better than Joey Graham. Some are indeed really bad (Joel Anthony, Keith Bogans and Jamario Moon) and some like Raja looks more like former players (Ricky Davis, Bruce Bowen and MoPete)
How do you suggest we resign Delfino with no cap space or exceptions?
Ask Turkoglu to defer some money to year 2-5. Easiest way. It’s a guaranteed deal (likely with a player option for year 5) so it really shouldn’t matter to him.
as doug smith would say there’s 1-99 chance that happens in the NBA (That means it’s not happening)
Raptors can’t sign Delfino at Wednesday, but Brian is creative and after all it’s his job to find cap space. Maybe he can find team wanting Hump, then that team signs Delfino and trades him to Raps for Hump + throw in. Or whatever. Biggest problem is Raptors don’t have MLE, so they cannot offer Delfino $6 millions even if they would want to. And if they offer him $4 to $5 millions, he could decide to stay Europe, cause thanks to much smaller taxes, he might find better deal there ($2.8 mil. which is believed to be Toronto qualifying offer would surely not suffice, but Colangelo knows it, that QO was just formality to retain rights). Anyway, it’s long summer and not that teams are waiting in line for Carlos. Most of GMs are saving for summer of LeBron and/or don’t have clue about Euro/S.America players.
The Raptors did not need the MLE to sign Delfino because the original offer was based on the fact that they has his bird rights
For what it`s worth.
Top Ten Reason Why the Raps will be Better:
# 10) Guys like Moon are no longer an integral part of the team (Miami fans thought he was a mini-Marion (that`s a good laugh)
# 9) Turk’s style will allow Ukic a chance to develop better
# 8) AB has regained his confidence and isn’t needed as a SF (thank God)
# 7) DeRozan should add some life to the SG position
# 6) Calderon is resting & should be good to go (Groin injuries take time to truly heal)
# 5) Evans will bring some toughness – which might inspire the troops to follow along
# 4) Our Bench will be the Bench, and not our Starters (DD aside)
# 3) Turk will bring more ball handling to a team that didn’t, and pass along what it feels like to be in the play-offs.
# 2) Bosh is playing for that big Contract
And the Number 1 reason, the Raps will do better:
Smitch is gone
:-)
i thought they already addressed ball handling when they got evans
Zing!!
You know, another way to look at it is that we didn’t sign Ben Gordon for 5 years/$55 million. The Turk signing is way better than that…
+1
Who in their right mind would do that? Oh, wait…
I really like this signing for several reasons:
-while this is a big contract for this offseason, historically 10 million is a very reasonable price for a boarderline allstar wing. Sczerbiac made 17 last year, and Quinton Richardson still makes at least 10
-Hedo loves the game. We can still expect him to give it his all for the next five years. Some guys, like Antoine Walker or Marcus Banks sign a big deal and stop putting in the effort. Guys like Nash and Hedo keep improving there games with hard work (and it’s good to hear that Bosh is working on his conditioning)
-30 is a subjective age in the NBA. Hedo is a younger 30 than McGrady or Kobe because he has less miles on the tires. Every player declines in there mid 30’s, but there are lots of very good 35 year olds in the league
There are still a lot of unanswerd questions with the bench and the two, but this is a big step in the right direction
i think your’re right. You start at the top and work your way down to the guys on the bench….I trust BC to do something smart……I’m worried and excited at the same time
+1
All we really need is to sign ONE more rotation player…a Matt Barnes or Danhtay Jones, or somehow Delfino.
I’m willing to live with a bench of Roko, Barnes/Jones/Delfino, Humphries, Evans….+ O’Bryant, Douby, Jawaii, Banks.
A 9 man rotation with a great starting 5 and “decent” 4 subs will be good enough to live with.
Taking a look at undrafted rookies would be a good idea as well.
Colangelo is very close to making amends for last year. If he can get one of Von Wafer or Raja Bell by swinging Hump and that 3M and then sign Rasho to the vet’s minimum, we’ll be set.
good point, Hedo has played less then 700 games. Usually the thousand game mark is when wing players start to really decline. Also he is tall and his game doesn’t require a lot of athleticism. There’s no reason why he can’t be effective for the duration of this deal.
Hedo will be motivated to perform to his max because his wife wants to live with pride in Toronto since she was the deciding factor in him joining the Raptors … and the Toronto Turkish community will lionize him so he better work to deserve their respect.
Hedo’s commitment to the Raptors for the next 5 years has got to be professional and intense … regardless of his financial security.
If he is truly committed to the Raptor’s future, he should be considering a back ended contract that will give BC some flexibility in acquiring or retaining better players. Let’s see what transpires…
Is it a given that Turk is a better player than Marion. Or perhaps put another way, is it clear that Marion is further along in his decline. Would some even say Turk is still at his peak?
Marion is unquestionably the overall superior player at this point in time. Whether he significantly declines athletically and therefore as a player over the next few years is impossible to say.
I’m a Matrix fan, but I don’t agree with that, at all. Just saying.
this is definetely not unquestionable. Hedo has played at a high level throughout his career… although was playing behind players like Peja so he didn’t get a chance to start until later in his career. The Marion we all remember only existed with Steve Nash. Although its fair to say that Hedo was at his best with D-12.
They are both good players and have (for the most part) completely different skill sets. Saying one is “unquestionably” superior to the other is dubious at best.
they’re completly different players, The matrix relys on his atlethic ability wich at his ages, starts to decrease. The other is more talented in terms of basketball ability
Well, the Matrix is the better rebounder and defender of the two.
Hedo is more dynamic offensively, and has shown to be a clutch shooter and capable ball handler.
However, Hedo is not the offensive dynamo many have cracked him out to be. He’s a low efficiency high volume shooter. He gets his points over the course of the game by shooting a lot. While we can certainly use a High Usage player on the wing, we just don’t have the offensive rebounding Howard provides to make the most of his many bricked possessions.
We had every opportunity to be one of the best overall rebounding teams in the league, with improved defense and improved bench scoring.
With Turkoglu and minimum contract scrubs, this team will be routinely clobbered on the offensive and defensive glass, and I suspect Hedo’s clutch talents will have gone to waste since we won’t be in enough games come clutch time.
I agree with Brasky 100%,
This is a bad signing.
Marion is an above average defender and rebounder, avg offensive player. Hedo is an above average offensive player and below avg defender. Who is better would depend on your needs. Who is better for your team and at what price is the question. No answers here to that question! Not yet, anyway.
now the stage is set to bring back Hoffa…..and get Damon Stoudamire for the vets max – I got there greatest weed he’d like!
Vets Min* lol
Your’s is not a ‘comment’ .. it’s a ‘tweet’ !!
hey guys, this site is absolutely awesome (chatroom, analysis, linkage, espn thing on the side), its like a one stop shop for raps/nba fans and always the 1st website i visit every morning. i just wanted to ask if there is a way you can put a thumbs up and a thumbs down beside a comment, like on youtube and some other sites?
*Thumbs down*
Your’s is not a ‘comment’ .. it’s a ‘tweet’ !!!
sorry guys….I meant vets minimum and crystal meth
Love hedo’s addition to the raps. He’s an extraordinary complete player who doesn’t need to score big points to play well. He’s a team player with an european mentallity who will serve as another unselfih player who makes everyone around him better (like Jose)
I just have one simple question because i don’t understand the salary cap rules very well
Is there any chance the raps could re-sign both AP and Delfino? Or at least one of them without falling into the tax or the cap?
On the other hand, Rasho will likely play for toronto for the veteran minimun, he loves the city and he already earn hin big bucks with the last contract. He knows he won’t get a big deal in the free agent market. His addition could really help us as a back up center and a very profesional, class act and unselfish player.
Bring AP back
There is no chance the Raps bring back AP and Delfino. They cannot afford it. PLus, they play too similar a game. I love AP. He is my fave Rap, but Delfino is younger, so given the choice between those two, you have to choose Defino. However, if we lose the rights to both, I say we go for the best available wings for the money. Losing the right to match on either of these two means we have less reason to focus on them. Dahntey Jones or Von Wafer are two wings I would consider ahead of Delfino. P.S. To the poster who said Delfino shot the lights out. He has never shot the lights out in his life. That is why he played in Moscow last year and did not tear up the league.
Agree with your opinion about Ap, he’s a class act profesional and i’ve love to watch him retiring in toronto. He’s not only my favorite raptor, He’s my favorite player in the world
I don’t agree with what you said about Delfino, I’m argentinian and i saw him play since he was 17 y o. He’s a great shooter and a very complete player. Wafer and Jones instead are one dimensionals, Von can only score and hasn’t a brain, and Jones is just a good defensive player. Delfino in the other hand has tones of experience internationally, in europe and with the national team, he’s a gold medal winner in athens 2004. There’s not comparison between those 3, Carlos is way a better player. He went to Kimhky last season because no one in the league was going to pay him what he really worths. He has the best contract in europe
This signing doesn’t correlate with where the Raptors stand. As of now, the Raptors are a 6-8 seed in East.
Hedo is the guy you add to a team that needs ONE more piece to compete for a championship. With his deal in place, there is no way they can parlay the next few years into championship-contending years.
That’s one reason that I see the Hedo acquisition as being all for naught.
The second? It appears that bringing in Hedo is to show Bosh that BC and the MLSE are going for it. Well, I don’t think they should attempt to build around a guy who doesn’t appear to want to stay AND likely won’t be capable of being the leader that justifies a max contract.
The team needs rebounding, defense and toughness. A young David Lee personifies those qualities.
Maybe it wasn’t available, but a sign-and-trade sending Bosh to NY for Lee, Chandler, and Hughes (for money reasons) would have been much more palatable to this fan.
Instead, we now have Andrea, Bosh, and Hedo starting at the three positions where physicality and toughness are valued the most. I don’t care if the Raps are planning to employ an up-tempo style – Hedo doesn’t make sense as a SF in such an offense and Bosh doesn’t make sense as a running 4.
Getting Hedo doesn’t add up for the Raps for a team that should be building for the future.
Is the MLSE planning a parade route too? Geez….
Elliot Ness says: Jul 5, 2009 at 4:45 pm
If you do your brainstorming analysis based on the scenario that Bosh will not be a Raptor sooner or later, then BCs acquisition of Hedo makes a lot more sense.
Bargs and Evans replace Bosh .. who may do a lot of scoring and rebounding mostly on the uncontested defensive end .. and the end result is: Bargs + Evans > Bosh.
Add Hedo, Jose and maybe even DeDe … and that rounds out the starters. It’s the bench that BC must shore up or else the Raptors will again go belly up next season.
Too many of the tribal honking forum fans are too besotted with Bosh, and just need their “hero-dose” to make their unsophisticated lives bearable.
Bargs + Evans > Bosh = Untrue
At least right this second. And I love Bargnani.
agree with you marc.
Re:– Marc says: Jul 5, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Would you care to elaborate on your opinion, because as it stands now, I must assume you have made an emotional subjective declaration rather than a well-reasoned objective assessment. Same goes for Bearvon.
Bargs has shown that he can drop 20 pts. per game given playing time, and Evans is expected to work the boards on both ends. Add Hedo’s playmaking, and one can project that Bargs + Evans could be > Bosh.
As for Bosh’s rebounding numbers, I would say that most of them come off the uncontested defensive boards. I can’t recall being impressed by Bosh’s rebounding when contested. Evans hopefully can earn his keep by rebounding, and that’s why I gave the edge to the combo of Bargs + Evans.
Regardless, the Raptors are going to become a very different team with Hedo on the pick & roll … which should help Bargs immensely. I believe that Bosh will become redundant because he will fall back on his one-on-one offensive style which ices the rest of the team. Hedo won’t let that happen and that will expose Bosh’s weakness as a team player.
Bosh is dispensable now, and could be traded for a couple of solid performers, which would nicely round out the team. Whether Bosh stays or goes, the Raptors will be transformed by Hedo and Triano … believe it.
i’d like to believe it.
youre saying that two players are better than 1….of course 2 is better than 1…
so ill take bargs+bosh.
Sorry … but BC is preparing the Raptors for a Bosh-less Raptor team. Bosh wants to team up with Lebron or another superstar like Wade to help win a championship sooner than later. Bosh has finished his run as a Ratpor, and BC should move him asap to quickly rebuild the Raptors hopefully into a playoff team around Hedo, Bargs, Jose and several still unnamed players.
Bosh is like the bottleneck at the top of the Ratpor bottle, and to uncork the team, he must be popped and pollarded. Bosh can neither grow with the Raptors nor carry the team to a playoff … he’s plateaued and should be pushed out before 2010.
If BC hangs on to Bosh that is just poor management of the Raptor team.
He should be pushed out before training camp.
Bosh’s plateau (and it is debateable whether he reached that point yet) is still pretty high. Certainly a top 20 player in the league. That is nothing to be scoffed at.
I think the biggest problem with Bosh is that the ‘Franchise’ label has gone to his head. Given a chance to play with more talent he has the opportunity to become a winning player.
I think Hedo’s passing will become infectious and Chris Bosh will post a career high in assists this coming year. Book it!
And yes, it was an emotional subjective response, but that does not necessarily make it false.
does it concern anybody else that hedo might not care that much about wining??
he left the spurs for a shitty magic team ( not sure if the spurs wanted him)
he left the eastern conference champs(who offered him45 mil)
and then fucked over an exciting portland team on the rise where he would have fit in great
joined a shitty raptors team for only 3 more mil than portland because his wife liked the city
dont get me wrong i like this move by bc, but it seems to me that turk might be just a really talented fun loving guy thats just really enjoying being rich and famous in the nba and doesnt really care if he wins…
i hope im wrong because i actually really like hedo..
Read the postings before you speculate wildly on this erudite bball forum:
Re:– 23. FAQ says:
Jul 5, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Hedo will be motivated to perform to his max because his wife wants to live with pride in Toronto since she was the deciding factor in him joining the Raptors … and the Toronto Turkish community will lionize him so he better work to deserve their respect.
Hedo’s commitment to the Raptors for the next 5 years has got to be professional and intense … regardless of his financial security.
If he is truly committed to the Raptor’s future, he should be considering a back ended contract that will give BC some flexibility in acquiring or retaining better players. Let’s see what transpires…
Let me get this straight.
Turk is a loser type …. cause he’s coming to T.O.
.
Nope, somehow his wife’s pride is going to make him a winning player.
How about we avoid speculation regarding whether players are ‘committed to winning’. That trash is reserved for douchebags like Bill Plastchke.
fair enough. just a thought i had about our new 55 million dollar player..
whats wrong with speculating?? seriously? maybe i dont get it..
Hopefully we can get rid of Humph’s contract to aleviate some cap space.
Here are some guys the Raps could go after to fill out the roster at an inexpensive rate:
Rasho Nesterovic
Calvin Booth
Quinton Ross
Brian Skinner
Kareem Rush
I would love the Raps roster to look something like this:
Bargs/Bosh/Hedo/DeRozan/Calderon
Rasho/Evans/Rush/Ross/Ukic
I was looking for inexpensive people on the free agent tracker,
quinton ross & bogans were on the top of my list for realistic possibilities, possibly even rashad McCants or Desmond Mason
I like Skinner, good banger who doesn’t give up on defense. Just don’t see anybody trading him for Hump, we’d have to throw in that cash we supposedly got from Miami to sweeten the deal.
Nobody’s talking about Jawai as being a possible contributor or even Douby. Didn’t Douby not suck towards the end of the season? Who knows, maybe he can surprise us, but even then I don’t want to be counting on contributions from him in training camp.
This just in: Joey Graham applied for a bouncer’s job at an underage club.
Random thought: I got a funny feeling BC will make us happy by signign a Raja Bell type player. Last time I had this feeling he acquired TJ Ford.
i think this team is fine just the way it is.
ur fucked for thinking that
Hardy Bignuts says: i think this team is fine just the way it is.
a1029384756z says: ur fucked for thinking that
………….
Fellas … take yer adolescent one-liner blurts over to another forum (realgm) and fill it up with yer moronic comments. This forum is reserved for erudite bball comments, and not for you to see yer names in print together with yer childish blurts. I don’t want to read about yer teenage “feeeeelings”.
If you can’t compose a message of more than something like “+1″, stfu.
-1
+1
Being fine with the team … is a perspective. If someone said we had a 90% chance of making the play-offs, and .09% chance of winning the championship, I’d be focusing on the former. At least a reasonable Raptor fan would think that way.
And being okay with the current roster (ala Cap and all), does not suggest one is content with mediocrity. I can’t help laughing when some people criticize trades & free agent signings, because they’re not turning us into an instant Laker type team.
Like I said, being content doesn’t mean one stops looking forward.
Always liked Brian Skinner…. does a good job in very limited minutes.
Your’s is not a ‘comment’ .. it’s a ‘tweet’ !!!!
i think last years vets min junk was a byproduct of overconfidence…ill assume bryan is an adult who is able to realistically evaluate his mistakes and therefore try not to make them again.
if he’s stuck with only the minimum then i think he’ll do much better this time making the most of it.
i’d love to find a way to score von wafer and rasho…and what about that euro clown RR profiled a few weeks back? can he be had for the min (just as small forward insurance)?
last year he was up against the tax line, he had to get the cheapest possible players to fill out the roster. This year he can acquire anyone willing to work for the minimum. It’s not a big difference, but it show mean that they have NBA caliber scrubs at the end of the bench instead of D-league caliber scrubs.
Sorael,
What players from the list of available free agents do you envision as being willing to work for the Raptors this season on the NBA Veteran’s Minimum Contract? … plugged into a roster that looks like this:
1 Bosh
2 Turkoglu
3 Calderon
4 Bargnani
5 Evans
6 DeRozan
7 Humphries
8 Ukic
9 Douby
10 O’Bryant
11 Jawai
12 Banks
13 ?
14 ?
15 ?
——————————————-
Last year they were up against the tax line and chose to go with a series of low-cost players to fill out the roster, while trying to tell loyal fans that the team was the best one assembled yet [since Feb 2006], on paper … instead of being prepared to spend in excess of the Luxury Tax Threshold on a higher calibre of player to fill-out the bench on a legit contender in the EC.
This off season they are well below the tax line but in the position of only being able to sign additional players to Minimum Contracts … while trying to tell loyal fans that this is the type of move which will make the team into a legit contender in the EC this season.
Go ahead and pick your poison?
We have to fill our roster right? Just as T.R. posted there are alot of inexpensive guys we could look at.
Matt Barnes
Rasho* (mentioned before)
Dahntay Jones
Those are just to name a few. If B.C can manage to get a Delfino signed, then sign a Barnes (for minimum) our Bench looks a whole lot deeper. And then I think we could grade our offseason an “A”
BryCo = Stu Jackson with a high collar, also headed for league exec. position possibly even hier apperent to Stern.
Stern is like Castro or Kim Jong Il. He will rule beyond the grave.
We currently have TWO wings on the depth chart for next year. TWO!!! And only one of them has played an NBA minute!!!!
Let’s say you can count on DeRozan for 25 minutes/game (which is generous based on estimates if we brought back Parker/Delfino/Marion). Turk plays 35. That leaves 36 minutes to be played by minimum salary guys. Really.
And how is everyone so comfortable claiming DeRozan is a starter without debate? Really? The biggest risk/reward pick in the entire draft is ready to start day 1 at 19-years-old? That’s a given?
How can anybody be confident in the wings? It’s horrifying.
This doesn’t even account for Hedo’s playing abilities, which I feel are overrated. He was in a PERFECT situation in Orlando, playing with 3 other All-Stars. One of these was Dwight Howard, who covers for defensive & rebounding deficiencies and on offense sets screens and lets the others bomb away…at a low percentage for Hedo. Who’s getting his O-boards?
I hope like hell that BC somehow salvages a bench out of this – without resorting to paying a 35-year-old Hedo $15M in 2013-2014 – but I’m dubious to say the least. I’m on record as being very unsupportive of this decision.
Wouldn’t Gerald Henderson have made a lot of sense about now?
This year may be tough depth wise, but it is a talent upgrade. But think the next year, we just dumped a whole lot of salary, so after this year, whether Bosh is here or not, we’ll have much more flexibility and cash going forward. We can afford to Max Bosh and sign Bargs, and add depth with MLE and Cap space going forward with getting into the tax.
I gotta tell ya, I’ve lived in Toronto for a little while now and I’ve never been aware of this “large Turkish community” people keep talking about, let alone a vague area of the city I would describe as “Turkish”. I know there are Turkish people here, and I know there are some Turkish places to eat, but you’ll see that in ANY major city, anywhere.
Sorry, I’m thinking out loud. Pointless.
Just guessing that you aren’t invited to the large Turkish communities gatherings, based on the fact that you don’t sound like you are Turkish. I hear there is a vibrant gay community in my city, too, but I don’t know where they hang out, or anything, as I am not gay.
Weird, I know.
+1
Really Funny, LOL.
Your’s is not a ‘comment’ .. it’s a ‘tweet’ !!!!!!
Not in Portland, evidently.
Relax, and let’s let BC finsh the job he is paid to do. I’ts a long way to training camp, and a large group of unsigned free agents out there.
Step 1 Evans, Step 2 DeRozan, Step 3 Turkoglu, each step adressing a clear need, not bad so far for 3 weeks work, and still walking.
BC is doing great.
This season he ‘just’ have to find the way to extend the depth of the team, and we’ll be set to the playoffs.
With the departure of Bosh and the arrival of proper players we’ll get in return, the Raps will probably be Conference Contenders by 2010-2011.
With a little luck and with the expected growth of some players.
At least we have a creative and gambling GM running the team, which is fun and adrenaline-charged.
At least the offseason is not dull with BC… a couple of questions re. dropping Marion for Hedo… (1) Hedo’s playmaking makes his teammates better… does that make up for losing Marion’s offensive rebounding? (2) is anyone else surprised that Hedo’s 4.6 DREBs avg last year is just 1 board behind Marion’s 5.6 DREBs avg with Toronto? (3) what’s the story on Hedo’s defensive rotations/team defense instincts… I don’t remember seeing him really stop anyone on defence in the playoffs or get exploited by wings, I remember some guys shooting Js while being guarded by him and Mikael Pietrus having to do the heavy lifting… we need a Pietrus type to come in… good thing the NBA pays more for offence than defence…
1. not really. while his ability to create opportunities for teammates will be welcomed, as will his ball-handling & ‘point-forward’ skills, truth is, offensive rebounding is such an important aspect of the game, that what marion provided in that area will be hard to overcome. it wouldn’t be so bad if the raps featured a 5 who could pull his weight in that regard, but unless they move bosh to centre, they quite possibly will have one of the worst offensive rebounding frontcourts in the league – odd, when you think it’s also one of the biggest.
2. not really…dude’s 6′10″. 4.5 drb/game is, uh, somewhat underwhelming, IMO. when you play that many minutes, you’re almost guaranteed that 4 balls will just fall in your lap (see: L, V).
3. the deal is, he’s kind of like jose, in that he’s good good instincts, and tries hard, and plays smart defensively, but just doen’t have the lateral quicks to stay in front of his guys. now, his height gives him something of an advantage in defending the jumper, but in general, he’s relatively unathletic. people seem to think he was guarding guys like lebron & kobe, and while he did check them for periods of play, it was generally lee & pietrius who were on them (unless my memory is totally shot).
ok. so, given this some thought, and i can’t say my opinion has changed since my initial reaction, which is that the deal sucks. i know i’m supposed to wait & see what else is gonna happen, but unless BC pulls a houdini outta his ass, i can’t see how they don’t enter the season with a poor defending/poor rebounding group of starters &, for the most part, cast-offs, rejects & scrubs coming off the bench.
it reminds me of the JO trade, in a way – the raps had needs (int. D/rebounding, wing scoring/defending) heading into last year’s offseason. one move made, acquiring a player who was thought to shore up the first need, but in so doing, all assets that could/should have been available to obtain the wing were used, leaving a bigger hole there.
so now, the raps once again have multiple needs, but this time, it’s almost completely in the backcourt – wing scoring/defending (either a 2 or 3), backups at the 2 & 3 spot, and a back-up PG. one move made, and one hole filled, leaving weaknesses at the starting 2 (until proven otherwise, starting a 19-yr old unsure thing is a weakness), backup 2 & 3, and backup PG spots. fantastic.
oh, and a starting 5 of bargs, bosh, hedo, DD & jose might just be the weakest defensive & rebounding group in the league. what i don’t get is that the raps really had no trouble scoring last year, even with marion & parker in the starting 5 (both can score, but aren’t scorers); they had trouble defending 1’s & 2’s, on the interior, and with rebounding. so, they give up guys who actually help with their weaknesses, in order to obtain a guy who…makes those weaknesses more glaring, and who provides more offense. i get that the idea is to outscore your opponent, but having to score 120 pts/game might be a tall order.
Are you saying Marion could have been had for a price?
well, that depends. i was miffed at marion’s supposed contract request (reportedly 5/$50M), but it felt like they could have gotten something done for less (3/4 yrs for $21M-$24/$28M-$32) with marion if they’d been patient (once he realized that NO ONE was giving him a 5/$50M deal), which would have allowed them to re-sign delfino & use AP in a S&T (or SOMETHING). as it stands, they really have no wiggle room, other than to sign guys for min. contracts, or make trades (without assets that anyone’s really interested in…or rather, with assets that others are – or may be – interested in, but that we’re not willing to part with).
overall, it just seems to me that BC panicked, realized that hedo was the last ‘big’ fish out there, and that they had to make a splash to try to appease bosh. like, holy shit, have we forgotten how well last year went, with that shit-pile of a bench? not saying we’re in for a repeat of the same, since it remains to be seen what other moves are forthcoming, but still…seems we’re heading in that direction.
Consider this, Marion would be even more pissy then usual having to settle for a contract that pays him only slightly above his actual worth. He got shitty when he was paid 16 miilion a year, I’ll bet he sustains a ’serious’ injury a month into the season
could very well be true, he’s always held a higher opinion of himself & his on-court contributions than was warranted by his actual production/ability. so, whatever team lands him could have a disgruntled matrix on their hand, since he’s simply not gonna get the money or years he thinks he deserves. and maybe that’s something BC realized long ago, having dealt with him before…that even if they could re-sign him, since it would be at a rate below what he feels he’s worth, he’d be a headache & not worth the hassle. at least, that’s what i’m holding onto…that a guy who really, truly wants to be playing in city X, and is appreciative of the money he’s making, will be happier & more productive on-court.
Exactly. For that reason alone I’d gladly take Turk over Marion, but of course that’s not the only good reason.
100% agree with getting Turk rather than a pouty Marion. BC made the best of a tough situation.
Plus, if BC waits around for Marion to come to his senses who knows what will be left if they can’t get something done for Marion after all.
Agonizing over the thin bench is premature until we see what BC can pull out of his hat by the time the season starts. I’m not quite self-assured/arrogant enough to pronounce him a fool. Given his record I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he plays it out.
I don’t think this was a panic move. There was a dude on RealGM about a year ago that claimed his buddy worked in a high end steakhouse where Turkolu and Colangelo were eating – separately. Story was Brian spent some time at Turk’s table and when he returned to his own table was overheard saying something like “There’s a good chance he’ll be a Raptor next year.”
Take that with a grain of salt, but I think BC has been coveting Turk for a while now. I don’t think the same thing can be said of the Charlie V or Ben Gordon where Dumars is concerned. I don’t know if I like it, but I don’t think Brian’s just giving a knee-jerk reaction.
Anyway, if nothing else, they should be a lot more fun to watch next season. I watched every game (that wasn’t on TSN 2) and at times I would have rather watched that Magic Bullet commercial. Hopefully we’ll at least be entertaining again.
+1
(Unless Bosh becomes a beast in the paint on D. And who would do that in a contract year?)
Personally, my reaction to the Turkoglu signing has been flip-flopping between shit shit shit shit shit…So thin at the wings!!!! So bad at rebounding!!! Panic!!! to not so bad, we needed some talent at either of the SF/SG spots in the starting lineup and now we got it. After digesting the situation for a few days, I too have sided with the idea that the deal is bad. As stated by Macy’O a few comments above, the wing situation really is “Horrifying” and the prospect of this group being far superior to last years group at rebounding is slim. It is my opinion that the team needed vast improvement in the rebounding department and not just marginal improvement (which may have been achieved overall but not in the starting lineup).
I think that the odds of ALL of the Raptors needs being addressed this off-season are no longer likely. By my count they still require two legit wings off the bench AND a backup PG. I am a little surprised that Raptors brass have decided that Roko definitely earned that backup job with last years performance. I thought they would at least bring in a guy to challenge him for the backup role, but that doesn’t look likely. As for the wings, bringing in zero additional wings would be devastating, and hopefully the raps can get one of the group of Delfino/Jones/Barnes. Two would be great.
One thing that has only been mentioned in passing though, is the fact that Chris Bosh is playing in a contract year…with something to prove. In his mind there is no question that he a max contract guy, to the point where he doesn’t think it is worth the discussion. I believe that’s confidence, not just self over-evaluation of his value (a la Marion). Playing on the Raptors or not, (and I believe it will be on the Raptors) I think Chris Bosh is out to prove his worth next year, and he will have a very impressive season.
-I think Chris Bosh is out to prove his worth next year-
I think this could go one of 2 ways:
1) like was said… contract year and Bosh wants to prove he is worth the $ (regardless of what team he plays for)
2) Bosh knows he is getting paid either way (short of an injury or just completely sucking this year). Even if Bosh has a mediocre year he is getting paid. I can see a possibility of not putting in a 100% effort (or reduced aggressiveness anyways) to ensure he doesnt get hurt and can get his contract.
Dont forget Bosh wanted to prove (as he stated early last year) that he was an MVP candidate… which I really dont feel he did last year.
That said, I dont think Bosh is that kind of guy…. but money sure has a tendency to change people even with the strongest willpower.
“what i don’t get is that the raps really had no trouble scoring last year, even with marion & parker in the starting 5″, I disagree. I saw plenty of games that got away from the Raptors because their offence went stagnant in the third and fourth quarters. Having another player on the floor who is capable of creating on offence will be huge.
i dont understand how this is so bad? if we are comparing it to last year, it breaks down pretty simply…
marion, kapono, parker
for
hedo, evans, derozan
ill take the later any day…we already had THE WORST group of wings in the nba (i.e. kapono) so why is everyone making a fuss that theyre not coming back?
everyone is getting bummed because the hedo signing isnt what we “need”…but i got a news flash…we fucking sucked last year…what we “need” is a shot in the arm…and hedo, evans, and derozan seems pretty awesome to me.
well, if you blow your wad on hedo, leaving the cupboard pretty bare, and it doesn’t improve the team drastically – to the point bosh would re-sign – then you’re basically building around a 31-yr old hedo, soon-to-be-re-upped bargnani, jose, and an unknown quantity (derozan).
it’s great to make a big splash, but generally speaking, it reeks of the kind of move a ‘close-to-contending’ team would make…that final piece of the puzzle, ya know? either BC thinks they’re closer than i do, or he’s got delusions of grandeur…
i feel you…but i also believe that if this thing isnt working mid-season and all signs point to bosh peacing out, then we will trade him for some desirable assets.
i lived in phx/was a suns fan when bc brought steve nash back…everyone thought he was old and washed up, and the team the previous season was dismal…and no one thought nash was going to turn them into anything…
im not saying hedo is the new nash…but stranger things have been.
I agree with everything yertu is saying.
What has me absolutely perplexed is what seems to be the following consensus:
- Roko’s an adequate backup PG
- DeRozan’s a starter
- Quinton Ross/Brian Skinner/Kareem Rush/Douby/Jawai/other terrible player with no history of basketball skill are fine backups to play legitimate roles.
- Bosh can be traded for a package of players who will, in sum, complete the roster in a winner.
This team has 2 wings, 1 of which is a year removed from high school. I can’t figure a situation where the bench is any better than last year, in which is was atrocious.
I feel like I’m in bizarro-TO. People who normally bash reasonable BC gambles are now praising his horrible mistakes.
seriously dude, calling the signing a “horrible mistake”, before the Raptors have even gotten to training camp is a little premature. The move is interesting, it could work, it could fail, but there weren’t any good alternatives. So, just chill until we see whether this can work or not.
We don’t know what alternatives there were, but certainly some could have included signing more than 1 quality player.
I’m hoping he can pull off something wild to get some reserves, but I just don’t see how it’s possible. Matt Barnes, Linas Kleiza, Anthony Parker anyone else good isn’t going to sign for the minimum. Rashad McCants, Kareem Rush, Gerald Green are terrible players. What other options are there? This is the EXACT same problem he created last year, and I thought he’d learned from it. Apparently not.
we need some good backups tho
maybe defino parker klieza mccants???
We can’t sign anyone so we are fucked… BC has to come through for us
well were going to see wat BC is really made of… If we do bad this year again we gotta fire him…Also it looks like we are goin all european again = finess players. I hope we are not fucked
maybe you can rehire babcock!
u have his phone number…
What has this forum become … kiddy comments from the ritalin gang visiting from realgm..???!!!
uh, he forgot a question mark. ease up, ace
Go jerk off elsewhere …!!!
“Your’s is not a ‘comment’ .. it’s a ‘tweet’ !!!!!!
Reply “. Stop being such a dick.
Finally I found a good Raptor Forum
… and yer filling it up with yer adolescent one-liner blurts .. go back to realgm where you can express yer feeeeelings … please
But these comments really bring up the overall dialogue of the site. Kettle, I introduce you to Pot.
wat does ur name mean… Fuck a queer u faggot…Do u live and die on this forum…. y don’t u take a break and do wat ur name entails
I keep hoping Triano uses Bosh in the role assigned for the Olympics. Primo garbage man. You can still “establish” Bosh in the 1st and 3rd to keep the defense honest and get our “all-star” his “touches”.
Run the side pick and roll with Bargs and Hedo (which would involve teaching VL to “roll” off the pick when his instincts scream “pop!”). Mix in old reliable “horns up” with Bosh and Jose. DeRozan looks good for a few back door cuts per game.
Pray BC can pull a rabbit out of the hat with our other trade “assets” or that enough decent young vets are out there looking for PT when the cap space around the league dries up. If not, send out Hump, Evans and Roko to foul everything in sight in the second quarter.
Bearvon, it’s the context and not the talens of Evans, DeRozan, and Hedo that has us critics up in arms. It’s tough to watch 82 games of your team getting out-muscled and out-hustled. That, in fact, is pretty much the worst way to lose. Further still, those are two of the strongest ways to identify playoff basketball. Our front line doesn’t exemplify the style of play that leads to winning in the playoffs…let alone in the regular season.
I agree with you about losing and getting outworked. I like blue-collar teams that, at the very least, will not be out-worked. Which is also why I’m happy that Burke is re-tooling the LEafs back to a ginder kind of team. That said, let’s just wait and see how the Raps play this year before passing judgement (at least final judgement).
Unfortunately, the tribal honking fans desperately need a hero like vince of Bosh so there is some meaning to their pathetic lives. They buy their jerseys and proudly wear it to reveal their happy delusion .. even the same sneakers…!!!
And yes … a hard-working, intelligent blue-collar team is preferable form my brand of bball … and that’s why the championship Pistons were so entertaining to watch. Even the current championship games were a delight … even though Kobe had to step up to save the Lakers. Too bad the Magic didn’t have a healthy Jameer to carry them through the playoffs .. instead it highlighted Hedo’s talents ..!!!!
Trading Bosh now for several solid blue-collar players would complete the rebuild of the Raptors for next season, and the only objective would be to jell the team into playoff form either this season or next.
elliot,
i can see what youre saying but i think its too soon to blow off the front line…
-its (almost) safe to assume bargnani is going to continue to improve on the defensive end (i will admit we are all praying for him to rebound better)
-bosh is going to have a beast of a year, one in which i think we will see him take it to the paint much more (thats where the points are…and points=money)
-tough or not…hedo (the sf) is a winner…as we saw only a month ago, hedo doesnt strike me as the type to let games get out of hand.
-reggie evans? reggie evans! the nut grabber!
and lastly…the only way demar is going to see the court is if he’s bringing toughness and hustle…i expect him to only get by this year on those things (and his insane athleticism)…and those were the ONLY things marion brought his entire career!
i really believe above all that this front line is going to be the main reason we will win more games than we lose.
however if youre beefing on the pg play (from every angle) and the lack of depth (which hasnt been addressed yet)…then i will agree.
Just wondering… Can BC offer the vets minimum to guys this year with a healthy raise to the mid level exception in year 2-? of the contract?
hey FAQ!!! i like how you reference your own shitty postings to answer questions. guess what? your shitty post didnt answer my question! im saying that im not sure hedo cares about winning beacause he left 2 winning programs to please his wife, and you’re saying he does because he cares about his wife and the respect of the turkish community in toronto!?!?
believe me, his 53 mil will get the respect of both the wife and the community.
and what do you know about that community? are you turkish?? do you know what makes them proud?
again i like the move im just concerned about what drives hedo
re july 5th 630pm
You obviously don’t have a family to satisfy, nor do you belong to a cultural community that requires pride of belonging. There is more to life than money, when you are already loaded with money like Hedo. Quality of life for his family is important to Hedo and the extra $2M he got from BC was not the deciding factor to come to Toronto .. garbage and all.
What drives Hedo is security for his family and their quality of life. Try reading some of the many articles written on this very subject. You can read, can you … because your grammar is wanting..??!!!
i’m sure you mean, ‘you can read, can’t you?’ right?
uh oh, sure hope that wasn’t a *tweet*….
I gave him the benefit of the doubt … but reading his most recent posting, I have grave doubts about this newbies ability to converse in writing.
Have you noticed how many of these ludicrous one-liner blurting adolescents have invaded our erudite forum … obviously coming off realgm where the average IQ = the average age. Getting tough to separate the serious from the silly tweeters who want to see their name up in lights on the big boyz forum …LOL
Keep up with the invective commentary …!!!!
you’re brilliant…
Before you go tossing around ‘erudite’, let’s keep in mind that you claim to know what drives Hedo Turkoglu. I have absolutely no idea how you can say something so personal with such certainty.
Go back to your amateur psych blogs, you’re bringing down the level of the posting here! Down with personal suppositions!!
are you saying he’ll only be excepted by the turks if he wins??
If Orlando is a “winning program” then I’m sure Wince Carter will lead them to the Finals again next year.
Or conversely, maybe they will suck next year because Turk was an important part of the team and hence a “winning player.” We shall see.
If the flipside is true, I wouldn’t want to be the psychologist for a man that is a winning player and hates winning. Surely he would have retired from pro ball because last year was too stressful with the number of won games. Maybe he chose Toronto because of that psychologist who Colangelo hired knowing he could use her to brainwash Turkoglu into liking winning. Call ESPN, I just figured it all out!
Remember when Marion said he hated that “halfcourt boring stuff” in Miami? Take a look at this article…
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/07/06/marion.cavs/index.html
I am laughing my ass off, that is a recipe for disaster with Shaq. Maybe Portland will give Marion it’s remaining 8 mil for each of the next 5 years. What a douchebag, I think this whole process is a blessing in disguise.
If we can dump either Humphries or Banks’ contract for a pick or trade exception, this team could turn out to have a pretty good 2nd unit. Now I’d love to get rid of Banks’ jackass of a contract, but I think the only teams with the cap space to take on his contract don’t have retards for GM’s. So Humphries seems to be the best movable contract available. Now, we have $10 million in cap space at the moment to sign the Turkish Delight. If we get rid of Humphries for a pick lets say, that puts us at close to $13 million in cap space. Then we sign Hedo to his big ass contract with him making $9 million in the first year which leave us with $4 million or so left. We sign Delfino to a 3 year/$12 million deal with a player option for a 4th year just to keep his ass happy. We sign Anthony Parker and Rasho Nesterovic to the veterans minumum (hopefully AP will accept a minumum deal), sign some D-League SF to fill out the roster and the team looks like this:
Starting 5:
PG: Jose Calderon
SG: Carlos Delfino
SF: Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Andrea Bargnani
2nd Unit:
PG: Roko Ukic
SG: Anthony Parker
SF: DeMar DeRozan
PF: Reggie Evans
C: Rasho Nesterovic
3rd Unit:
PG: Marcus Banks
SG: Quincy Douby
SF: D-Leaguer
PF: Nathan Jawai
C: Patrick O’Bryant
I can work with that team.
Interesting starting 5 … but don’t you see that Bargs and Bosh are essentially the same kind of players? Neither are strong C’s and both are combo 3/4’s … maybe a couple of Twin Towers setting picks for Hedo on either side of the court. It all depends on how Triano will set up the Raptor offence. Both Bosh and Bargs will have to step up their defencive work if this lineup is to work.
Jose and Carlos are too slow as combo guards, and will be neutered by opposing teams. The Raptors need a SG who can do something other than the pick’n roll … maybe run the baseline. Can DeDe do it??
I think Bargs has stepped it up defensively. He played played pretty good defense last year, it’s Bosh who needs to step it up.
You make a good point about Delfino being a bit too slow. Maybe DeRozan would fit better in the starting 5 and Delfino coming off the bench as the 6th man.
In his 3 seasons with the Raptors, Bargs has been asked to develop his game in different directions and do it while playing in the NBA .. it’s tough. Meanwhile Bosh seems to have plateaued out with no more upside to his game. Perhaps a change of team scenery would help him improve his game.
I see Hedo handling the ball in the forecourt, while combo guards are running around baseline pics. I also see Hedo in pick’n roll with Bosh or Bargs. I don’t see Hedo posting up unless there is an obvious mismatch. Where does this leave Jose? Perhaps Jose will be backup to Hedo, since he is having injury problems that are not openly known.
Triano will have an interesting situation with Hedo in the lineup … but I suspect there are more surprises in store for us … making all our speculations slightly off base.
for what it’s worth i’ve heard that Bosh has realized that he needs to improve and it taking his off-season training to a whole new level. Maybe he’ll learn a post move or two, who knows…
Has anyone thought that we might go after Leon Powe? Hes a good rebounder and provides more offence than Evans. If we can trade Hump we should at least try to sign Powe.
i’m sure an integral role-player with a championship calibre team would just love to come to a different country, on a rebuilding team, where he’d be a backup…for diddly-poo of a contract. somehow, i doubt TO’s vibrant turkish community will have the same swaying effection on mistah powe…
But he scores buckets!
He’s out until at least Feb. I think he’d be a great signing if BC could get him cheap.
It was just a suggestion, chill out man. If your mad about the Turk deal ok get over it, that was a couple days ago.
hey faQ!!! ive read every article on the subject and NONE of them even elude to the question of whether or not he has the desire to win!!?
and btw, just because your a try hard intellect posing as some sort of wanna be sheriff sports writer with an annoying vocab doesnt mean you know what you’re talking about..
maybe you should go to turkey town and to some investigative journalism about what turkish people want from hedo… where is turkey town again??? i think its in TURKEY!!
Go back to realgm and crawl under a rock from whence you came ….!!!!
haha!! whats realgm??
stfu, seriously your just embarrassing yourself
that was his dis to me…i guess peep in 3rd world countries can get access to computers now…Good for u FAQ=Fuck A Queer
Yay, let all prepare for more comment deleting
Nothing is perfect until you win a championship people. There are always nits to pick. But this WILL be a much better team next season. The pros far outway the cons. It’s a pretty great deal for the Raps. No it’s not perfect and no we can’t address all the needs this year. But there are options.
GEAR DOWN BIG TRUCKERS! It’s going to be OK.
i don’t think all the GPS in the world can help BC find the way home .
btw , why shd BC take us home when he has not led the Raps fans to the
NBA championship ???
Classic!
IF Ukic can be a decent backup PG this year (A big IF)
IF Derozan can be a good player come Christmas.
This team can be top 4 or 5 in the East.
If not it will be a struggle to make the playoffs.
Our big 4 is solid:
Bosh
Hedo
Jose
AB7
Depth is the only question.
Our rebounding will improve here is why:
Andrea will get better (not good but better)
Hedo will rebound better (Remember Howard grabbed every rebound so Hedo did not need to it he is a tall SF and his numbers will increase.
Derozan should be a good rebounder (depending on minutes)
It will come down to depth and injuries.
If we stay healthy and the 2 kids (derozan and Ukic) can be decent rotation players we will be good.
I know its an IF but I just get the feeling that because Derozan will not be asked to create shots and just defend/rebound and run the break he will be a great fit after a month of getting used to the NBA.
Ukic who knows?
Maybe we can sign a guard who is capable of playing the 1/2/3
Only Delfino and Parker come to mind but maybe there is someone else.
GO Raps.
—————————————
Our big 4 is solid:
Bosh
Hedo
Jose
AB7
Depth is the only question.
—————————————
Really?
Are you sure that you’re evaluating these 4 players in terms of:
1. Rebounding 2. Defense 3. Offense
Until Raptors fans can actually evaluate the relative strengths and weaknesses of these 4 players correctly … individually AND in conjunction with one another … it’s a worthless exercise to move on to the remainder of the roster.
I thought it might be prudent to mention its possible to win 60+ games while being a terrible rebounding team, and make the conference finals. For evidence see: Suns, Phoenix.
Many basketball teams have serious trouble scoring, and can be plainly outscored. You know this, and so do I, so scoring the attributes of a player by 1)Rebounding 2)Defense and 3)Offense is misleading.
There are in fact few teams with 4 legit scorers in their starting 5.
I think we, the Raptors Republic public, are guilty of underrating Jose as a defender, due to his myriad 2008-2009 injuries. He’s a decent if not spectacular defender. Bosh is a decent defender as well, if at times unwilling to exert himself on that end. Andrea Bargnani clearly has the desire to be good on the defensive end, although he needs to play much better team D, his individual D is pretty solid, and Hedo, basing my opinions on what I saw in the playoffs, is long and smart, and fully capable of making big plays on D.
If Bargnani can’t jump or get more than 5 boards a game, thats fine, as long as he boxes out. In his last year here, Charles Oakley didn’t get very many rebounds either, but his ability to box 2 players out let Antonio Davis and the rest of our crew be one of the best rebounding teams in the league.
Wow. Did I just compare Bargnani to Oakley? My credibility is shot.
To recap. We’ll be able to outscore people most nights. Rebounding and Defense win championships, but do not prevent you from being a 50-60 win team thats incredibly entertaining. I don’t think it makes us a contender, but I do think the proposed starting 5 is capable of winning 45-55 games, barring injury.
The bench is woefully thin today, but might get thicker, depending on how Hedo’s contract is back-loaded, and how B-Co works out sign and trades, and today, I am cautiously optimistic.
Seeten,
Sticking with your analogy for a minute …
S-Nash ——— Calderon
J-Johnson —— DeRozan
Q-Richardson — Turkoglu
S-Marion ——- Bosh
A-Stoudemire — Bargnani
=========================
L-Barbosa —— Ukic
J-Jackson —— Banks
S-Hunter ——- Humphries
W-McCarty —— ?
B-Outlaw ——- ?
=========================
M-D’Antoni —– j-Triano
Are you suggesting that those 8 Raptors’ players and head coach are in any way capable of performing in a style of basketball that resembles these 10 players and head coach for the 2004-2005 Phoenix Suns, that won 62 games that season primarily by outscoring their opponents on a nightly basis?
If so, I’m not sure you’ve envisioned accurately what style of play the 2009-2010 version of the Raptors should be expected to use with the 8 players and head coach listed above.
First, McCarty and Outlaw never saw the floor, as D’Antoni only plays 6-7 guys, so those spots aren’t needed. LOL.
Second, I’d rather discuss the 2006-2007 Suns than the 2004-2005 Suns, as they won 61 games, and had already jettisoned Joe Johnson and Q-Rich.
Steve Nash – Jose Calderon
Raja Bell – DeMar DeRozan
Boris Diaw – Hedo Turkoglu
Shawn Marion – Chris Bosh
Amare Stoudemire – Andrea Bargnani
====================================
Leandro Barbosa – Roko Ukic(I wish)
Pat Burke – Hump
James Jones – We got nothin’
Jumaine Jones – DNP CD
Jalen Rose – Never saw the floor
Kurt Thomas – I wish
Would I rather have Nash, one of the best all-time offense running PG’s in the league? Yes. Do I think the Raptors can win 60? No. Am I suggesting we’re gonna run Fast Break all night? No.
But I am suggesting that we can run an unstoppable pick n roll with Bosh/Hedo/Bargs/Calderon. All 4 of those players are incredibly rough on the opposition in PNR. Assuming we install a good offensive system, we can outscore people.
I am, again, not suggesting that outscoring people wins championships. We’re not going to outscore Cleveland, or LA, either. But we can definitely outscore lots of the other teams on our way to a good and entertaining season, barring injury.
Again, though, the bench is thin, and looking at the comparison above, the Suns bench is MUCH better than ours. So is their starting 5, but I think ours is in the ballpark, anyway.
Don’t forget the 2005-06 Suns — the year Amare was out the whole season and they still won 54 games and home court in the West.
Starters were Nash, Bell, Diaw and Marion, with Kurt Thomas, James Jones and Tim Thomas splitting games starting as well.
Let me repeat — TIM THOMAS AND JAMES JONES starting about 25 games each.
I understand that Nash counts for a lot, that being an MVP year and all, but man. Offense will win you some games, is all I’m sayin’
Simon,
IMO, a comparison of the 2009-2010 Toronto Raptors to that Phoenix Suns team would be valid, if Shawn Marion [#4/PF] was starting in the front court as the running mate to Chris Bosh [#5/C]. Alas, that possibility no longer exists this season.
Could the Raptors have functioned at a high level this season with a relatively unaccomplished player like Tim Thomas [or, say, Derrick Brown!] in the #3/SF position … beside:
Jose Calderon [#1/PG, in the Steve Nash role], and
Anthony Parker or DeMar DeRozan [#2/OG, in the Raja Bell role], and
Shawn Marion [#4/PF], and
Chris Bosh [#5/C, in the Amare Stoudemire role]?
If you’ve read what I’ve written on that subject, here and elsewhere, you should already know my answer to that specific question.
Seeten,
It’s fun exchanging ideas of this sort with someone like you, as you do not resort to throwing insults at others and can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Thus …
This is the link for the 2004-2005 Phoenix Suns. Feel free to choose whatever players you’d like to compare to the current Raptors.
It doesn’t really matter in the end which set you choose … or, whether we would try and compare the 2006-2007 Phoenix team instead.
What it seems you’re prepared to acknowledge is that:
1. The Suns’ Starters were better as a group than the Raptors’ Starters.
2. Select Phoenix players were far superior to their Raptors’ counterpart.
3. The SSOL Phoenix teams played at a break-neck pace which you do not see the Raptors playing at this season.
I would agree with you regarding these three observations.
The main point of me questioning the observation that “Bosh, Turkoglu, Calderon and Bargnani form a solid 4″ was not to suggest that they cannot contribute to a team which is capable of winning a high number of regular season games and plays entertaining basketball … but, was to suggest that an observation like THAT does not accurately consider their respective skills in the three main phases of the game: 1. Rebounding 2. Defense 3. Offense.
IMO, that specific group of 4 should be described as:
1. Rebounding = Below Average
2. Defense = Below Average
3. Offense = Above Average
When you then put those three ratings together, they do NOT combine to make a “Solid 4″, in and of themselves.
How many wins a Raptors team with those 4 players as Starters can in fact achieve this season was never part of my original observation.
——————————–
re: your original observation about an offensive team winning 50+ games
IMO, your use of the Phoenix Suns from the SSOL era is …
1. Not a good stylistic comparison with the players on this Raptors team
2. Not indicative of the number of Wins associated with the vast majority of NBA teams that have an offensive focus exclusively and try to outscore their opponents on a consistent basis.
Yes solid:
not best in the L but solid.
4 potential all stars = solid
Do they have weaknesses? Yes.
But Its a solid 4? Yes
Clearly you disagree
but we disagree about Andrea and I disagree with most of what you say.
_______________________________________________________
Who ever is more popular in the locker room should start have the inside track to start at center. Written by Khandor.
Is one of the most inaccurate thing I ve ever read.
You should realize all creditibility if you had any, was gone right there.
The problem is that many of their strengths & weaknesses are aligned. There’s nobody that’s defense/rebounding oriented that can fill in the gaps. They’re all perimeter oriented, risk averse, defensively limited players. Sure you can win some games like that, but they’re cumulative skill set isn’t diverse enough to do much post-season damage I’m afraid.
Note: I never claimed we were going to do any post season damage. I claimed we could outscore people in the regular season. Heh.
————————————–
Who ever is more popular in the locker room should start have the inside track to start at center. Written by Khandor.
Is one of the most inaccurate thing I ve ever read.
You should realize all creditibility if you had any, was gone right there. – it is what it is
————————————–
When someone chooses to give an inaccurate account of what I’ve said about something, or misrepresents the specific context of my observations then that individual develops no currency with me.
Are you denying that was your quote???
What I wrote is what I’ve written. I trust that you actually have the ability to read on your own.
lol……………… 0 credibility….
by the way the people who run realgm and the people aloud to participate in chat have this to say.
Khandor has does our ass taste……..
No credibility and gets the boot.
You cant even remember the shit you type must be mixing Viagra with your eltimers meds again.
Long live Andrea our starting center….
Despite Bosh is more popular in the locker room you quack…….
Khandor/It is what it is,
Please keep in mind our posted policy on personal attacks and refrain from using them.
Consider this both a request and a warning to each of you.
We would appreciate your co-operation.
Thanks.
If Parker or Delfino each have the choice of signing:
A. With a team like Boston, or Cleveland, or San Antonio, or Chicago, or etc., for the LLE [or, perhaps, the MLE];
or,
B. With a Euroleague team for $ ________ [you can fill in the blank yourself];
or,
C. With the Raptors for approximately $1.3 M/yr;
what makes you think either of them would select Toronto at those specific dollar amounts?
They wouldn’t?
I sure wouldn’t.
I’m not sure Delfino has a lot of options in the NBA, and Parker seems to like it here, so… who knows? Maybe they would take a big pay cut to play for Toronto. There are, in fact, more important things than money.
Oh no! Here we go again!
o wow sign and trade talk with the mavs…jerry stackhouse for marion…wat do u guys think about this move? (a10..horrible)
can we get the MLE back?
Stackhouse for Marion doesn’t seem to make financial sense. It means taking back $2 million in salary, assuming we immediately cut him, or $7 million if we don’t, meaning we can’t sign Turkoglu.
Not that I am a capologist, but thats what it sounds like to me.
Im pretty sure we could still sign turk as the sign and trade option allows us to go over the cap. Its the only remaining option we really have to bring anyone in to play here with the exception of minimum contracts.
Otis Smith has said he isn’t going to sign-and-trade Hedo. Minimum K’s it is.
Yup. Tim Chisolm’s article on TSN does a pretty good job of laying out how the Raps can improve; the jist of it being that you can take back up to 125% of a player’s salary +$100,000 of the player going the other way, and for that you’re allowed to go over the cap.
I don’t really understand how it works in regards to bonus-laden contracts like Stockhouse’s…any Capologists here?
I think if we can find a third team the trade would work like this:
Mavs get Marion
3rd team gets Stackhouse + something else they want from either Toronto or Dallas or both
Raps get a 2nd pick from either
We then do this trade before signing Hedo and therefore we would get some capspace and possiblily MLE
Not sure I am correct but I think thats how it would work:
Anything to get capvspace is a good deal at this point.
wats MLE… these terms are new for me
mid level exception….my bad
yea we need that
If BC could trade marion for two second round picks to get access to the MLE it would be beautiful. Buy ourselves a bench.
There is nothing the Raptors can do to get access to the mid-level exemption. Literally nothing.