How many takers does Marion really have?Slow and steady doesn’t win the race, but at least it gives you time NOT to f*ck up. Two days into the second most important free agency period this team has ever gone through (the most important being the summer we re-upped AD, JYD and Boogie), and I’m glad Colangelo didn’t jump the gun to sign a free agent Shawn Marion. What would you say the contract he was going to be offered would be worth, 3yr/$21mil? Now, two days in and I bet not many of you would offer him more then a 3yr/$18mil deal, I know I wouldn’t.
Top 3 wing on the FA market sound about right? There a few teams around the league who are expected to compete for the championship, who could use the defense and rebounding that Marion brings to the table, but the funny thing is, there is zero chatter. Who wants Shawn Marion I know the Raptors do, but there doesn’t seem to be anyone else out there who will drive his asking price up, which should end up well for the Raptors. I can only speculate the reason Marion is taking his sweet time is that he hopes someone else will come in, and offer him a contract that will force BC to up the ante. I like the guy a lot, but he is 31, and any deal with him has to be 3 years and under $7mil/year.
I have to admit, the David Lee rumours make me nervous…really nervous. It makes no sense to sign Lee if the plan is to keep Chris Bosh. Argue all you want about what Chris’ natural position is (4 or 5), but as long as Bargnani is a Raptor, Bosh is a 4 (and Bargnani will be a Raptor unless we can get Wade or LeBron for him aka he will be here for ever). Does signing Lee give us options? It gives us a great deal of options, but the question is whether the Raptors would be a better team by signing Lee and trading Bosh for pieces, or keeping Bosh and signing/trading for pieces? Put me in the camp that supports the latter.
$60mil for Hedu? Seriously? I floated a 5yr/$50mil as my threshold of pain for the guy, but $60mil? I can only imagine that number was floated by his agent, in hopes of it working out for Hedu. Regardless, the Raptors seem to be out of hunting for the guy, which is fine with me, because…
ARTEST IS A LAKER!!!!
I love what he says about playing against Kobe in the finals, about not being friends and helping folks off the floor – I LOVE THAT ATTITUDE (we could have used Artest desperately). With the Lakers committing to Artest, Ariza is as good as gone, and the number of teams that could drive the value of his contract higher just decreased by one. I feel like Ariza is a younger Marion (not as talented mind you, but a younger-raw’er? version), and would be a nice fit lining up with Bosh and Bargnani in the front court. The rumour is that whoever, between Portland and Toronto, didn’t land Turkoglu would target Ariza. For once, here’s hoping the Blazers “win” the Hedu sweepstakes and we get the “consolation” prize.
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Ariza is off the table apparantly. Houston is said to have the inside track. Still hope we don’t win the FA sweepstakes with Hedu.
uh, didn’t ariza sign (or rather, commit to sign) with the rockets?
so, hedo seems destined to portland, artest is going to LAL, ariza to the rockets; also looks possible the sixers could be sending miller (via sign & trade) to POR for outlaw & blake.
not much left. odom seems certain to re-sign w/ LA.
so, yeah. while there may not be much league-wide interest in marion, he must realize that the raps, if they miss out on all their targets, will pretty much have to re-sign him.
as for lee…not sure i understand why the raps would be interested. i mean, from a bball perspective, it’s a good move, ’cause the guy can ball. and i’d have to assume that there would be subsequent deals in the works if they did sign him, there are just too many 4’s & 5’s to divvy up the PT…but i cringe at a frontline of bargs & lee (defensively), or bosh & lee (undersized, great offensively, good rebounding, but suspect defensively). could they just be trying to drive up his price?
Also, forgot to mention Kleiza…he would be a nice add, but I doubt it happens for some reason. He’d come cheaper then Ariza, that’s for sure.
oh yeah, forgot. is he it?
i just keep remembering that he went a bit mental a couple seasons ago, in a game in denver…didn’t he start mouthing off with triano (when he was an assistant)? i can’t remember the details, speculation there was some anymosity over something that happened in international play?
I’m sorry but this kinda makes me laugh…. we apparently missed out on Artest, Hedo, Ariza, Odom, and Miller… but Kleiza still available….
all things considered, it wouldn’t be that bad a consolation prize…at worst, a backup SF who can play the 2 & 4 as well, who can defend, is still young, and brings an edge to his game…and who could be fairly cheap.
of course, they still need to do something with marion, either sign him or sign & trade him, before they can move on kleiza…though word is he (kleiza) seems willing to wait it out to sign w/ TO. i’m not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth…
well I’m not saying signing Kleiza is a bad idea… just saying in comparison to what else is out their.
Just goes to prove how hard it is to sign FA in Toronto
It isn’t hard to sign a FA in Toronto …
1. Depending on what it is the Raptors are trying to sell to that specific player;
AND,
2. Who it is that’s doing the selling.
What makes any of you think that Bryan Colangelo has what it takes to close the deal on a player like ________________ [fill in the blank yourself], in an effort to upgrade the Raptors roster to the point that the franchise can become a legitimate contender for a NBA title, in Toronto ON Canada, in the not-too-distant future?
Because he’s a two-time winner of the NBA’s EOY Award?
Because he’s the GM who signed Steve Nash to be the PG for the Suns?
Because he’s the GM who led the team to a 47-win season in 2006-2007?
Because he’s the GM who led the Suns to the WC Final … 1 time?
Because he’s the son of Jerry Colangelo?
Please …
—————————–
I have a tonne of respect for Bryan Colangelo, but … the fact is … he’s the person who’s created the mess in Toronto, at the moment, and he’s the one who’s got to get to work to fix it.
The answer is to be found in adding good young players who can blend with the talents of Chris Bosh and Jose Calderon, and in finding the right head coach to go with those specific players.
Hopefully … he has enough basketball acumen to:
* Find a solid Back-up PG [as a complement to Calderon]
* Make Bargnani a Back-up Center [as a complement to Bosh], who can score to his heart’s content in that specific role
* Find a solid SF who can be a bookend Wing for DeRozan
* Have selected the right head coach for this team [Jay Triano?]
Unfortunately, however … if he fails in any of these regards, the odds are actually quite good that the Raptors will remain a Treadmill team for the foreseeable.
i.e. Far from being the worst team in the league, but a franchise with little real hope of ever climbing to its apex, either.
“It isn’t hard to sign a FA in Toronto … – is unfortunately completely untrue (although I wish it wasnt). Since the existence of the Raptors please name 1 big name FA we signed. Not resigned… not an extension… but a FA that came to T.O. and was of a high calibre. Im not talking role players here… Im talking game changers (and for the better would be prefereable).
There are 0 that came.
P.S. this has nothing to do with BC… it has everything to do with players (ill concieved) concept of Canada and Toronto.
We signed Rafer Alston…LOL
What free agents have we gone after and missed on?
I think the ‘players don’t want to come to Toronto’ angle is seriously overplayed. Players want to get paid, and if the Raps have the cap space to pay them, they’ll come.
John Salmons
If it were to happen, Turk. I think Khandor is right and (me included) have to acknowledge that player movement is dictated mostly by money and, by a lesser extent, playing opportunities. I used to think free agents didn`t want to sign here, but that thinking is flawed. The best example is SA. That is the definition of a small market, but they have managed to retain their best player and attract good players because of a good front office, not based on the team`s physical location.
I’ve been away for awhile but see that you still have your Barg’s hate on going. The fact that you would build around Bosh ( who will not commit and will leave for a decent offer next year) and Jose and don’t mention Barg’s is all the proof I need that you either know nothing about basketball and talent, or you simply hate the guy. It’s time to forget about Botch and focus on real talent that is getting better and wants to be here, and wants a team not individual stats.
Really Khan it’s about frekin time you get the picture…
Agreed. It is a HUGE risk to build around a guy who may only be here for one more season. Instead of building AROUND Bosh, why doesn’t BC just try to get the best players available? That way we won’t be screwed if Bosh decides to leave town.
You would build around a one dimensional player, who defends the post poorer then he defends his bowl of pasta at east side marios? bargnani is a piece you put around bosh, not a piece you build around, IMHO of course. take if for what it’s worth.
however, i do agree that building around bosh, when he hasn’t committed to staying is a huge risk. i would be collecting assets right now, that would both field a competitive team AND be useful in trades down the line. that’s just me though.
Keep in mind that July 1-July 8 is a moratorium period, where no unrestricted free agents can sign anything. All these deals are in principle, and negotiations will be ongoing until next week.
Don’t panic yet. It’s unlikely, but we might even have something under our hats that hasn’t been announced yet.
Like Raps Fan indicated, a lack of buzz around Marion is good for us. If a lot of people were interested we would probably have made a move by now.
One of the blogs reported today that 12 teams are interested in Lee…it looks like our odds are slim to get him. I wouldn’t mind getting him, but I think it kills Bosh’s trade value. I feel like have to get at least one very good player for Bosh to consider a Lee signing a success.
No agent would allow that to happen and keep his job. Teams would freeze him and any of his clients out down the road for reneging on a deal in principle.
True enough, I misworded that post.
of course, when it’s crazy ‘ol don nelson doing the reneging…that’s cool.
There is some word that Cleveland is interested in Marion, which could kill us. If Marion signs elsewhere, without a sign-and-trade, then the Raps are left with a relatively small amount of free agent money, AND we lose the mid-level exception. Whether we like it or not, Marion has to be signed. Then the Raps can go out and use their remaining money (Kleiza, or maybe make an offer to Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, Marquis Daniels, Walter Hermann, even Desmond Mason or Flip Murry to replace Parker if he goes), and offer the full midlevel to Marvin Williams.
With the Artest signing in LA, Cleveland might get desperate. LeBron’s future is basically hanging in the balance this summer. If they overpay Marion we are screwed.
They can’t overpay Marion – they are way over the cap.
He could go there for a ring at the mid-level, but they can’t overpay him.
I love when people mention chasing Marvin Williams…. yet everyone seems to ignore him as an option. Personally I think he would be a great signing. Not sure how much he is looking for though.
Marvin Williams is worth more then the mid-level. But if we could sign him for that much, sign me up asap.
I think we shouldnt sign anybody this season. Whats the point of wasting 3-4 years of your cap space for players like Marion or Hedo? (for example). The raptors should be patients and be a facilitator for trades with teams who want to reduce salary and are willing to throw in a sweetener (draft pick or young player). This team is three plus years from competing, might as well start stocking up on assets now.
Personally i dont see ariza as that much better a player then kleiza if at all really.
I find Ariza to be very overrated and more of a James Posey type than anything. Not enough ability to create his own shot and suspect ball-handling skills. Great role player but beware if you ask him to do too much.
They have very different skills. It depends on what your needs are. Kleiza is great O for the money, and Ariza is great D for the money.
I think the Raps need more D for the money, so I would take Ariza (but not overpay him. Never never ever never ever never pay big money for a role player having a career year on a championship team)
…or Jesus tells you to take more money in Sacramento…
:) priceless !!!
Does anyone not agree with jayelzee’s comment? it seems ominous but true. If we don’t sign or sign and trade marion…really what other options do we have other than picking up some small pieces to get us to the cap? This can’t be the master plan….can it?!
I don’t know if there was ever a real ‘master plan’. I’m not sad that the Raps haven’t signed anybody yet. Frankly, I don’t think anyone that has been locked up is any better than Marion anyways.
Hedo’s getting overpaid, Artest is a headcase, Ariza’s had a good half-season (and great playoffs), Ben Gordon’s a chucker, Charlie V is a loafer who can’t rebound or defend (for his size). I don’t think any of those guys consistently impact a game as thoroughly as Marion does.
I get the feeling Marion’s more worried about coin than jewelry. I think we can sign him.
my idealogy of 85% import is the only way, it seems that we can recruit the best non-american players in the world; guys that wanna play for the city with pride. the remainding 15% of non-import we save for athletic talent or enforcers from the united states, ya gotta love it,,,overtime…
I agree a Marion/Kleiza combo would be a better investment than $60 mill for Hedo (especially defensively). You get to maintain some cap flexibility which is huge going into next year. That being said, if I were the Raps, I’d let Chris Bosh make the call.
The Raptors should be offerring …
* Marion
* Bargnani
* Parker
* Marion & Bargnani
* Marion & Parker
* Marion, Bargnani & Parker
* Bargnani & Parker
around the league, as we speak.
[all of which would have been made a lot more palatable if they'd just selected a 2nd young player in Thursday's Draft to go with DeRozan]
wrong again!! The offer list should always start and end with Bosh!
Even though I am a big bargnani fan, I agree with the idea that the Raptors should trade him and focus building around bosh. Those two players are too similar and you might be able to get something of value for bargs. You should never trade your best players (bosh).
From hoopshype today:
I checked in with Toronto and was told Chris Bosh would not be part of any trade conversations and the reply I got from the Knicks end was that there wasn’t much interest in any other player on that roster to even begin discussing a deal for Lee. Newsday
That says it all … only interesting trade chip is Bosh .. not Bargnani .. not Calderon .. not anybody… only Bosh…!!!
I am honestly not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. Bosh may be the most valued player on the raptors, but there is interest for players like calderon and bargnani.
Sorry .. the italicized remarks were from a reporter with Newsday speaking to the NY Knicks re trading Lee to Toronto … and confirming that only Bosh was of interest to them. No sarcasm intended … only reality.
It is in Cleveland’s best interest to do a sign and trade with T.O if they want Marion, as the Raps can match any offer. Cleveland can only offer the MLE, which the Raps can match. Plus Matrix doesnt want to play for the MLE, I have read. Cleveland also has interest in AP, where they are also considering a sign and trade.
Who would you want from Cleveland? I don’t think they’ll be giving up Mo Williams.
I’d want picks in a sign and trade, if I wanted anything.
Clevelands’ picks are no good, for next year at least….
Lebron. What else do they have?
I want Boobie lol
Varajeo would be nice too
But Marion is unrestricted, so even if Toronto matches, he can choose to go elsewhere for less.
That’s not happening. He made it clear in his exit interview that money and length of deal will have a major say in his next destination. I even inferred it as more important than a contender.
First, I agree that with all the SF signings/soon-to-be-signings (Artest, Ariza, Turk), it is good news for the Raps negotiating the lowest possible salary for Marion. I think having Marion on the Raps is not only a good fit now, but will also be good to help develop DeRozan – I know he was signed as a SG, but as an athletic, nearly 6′7″ 19 year old, I see him having the potential to play SG or SF long-term.
Second, I personally get the feeling that there is more behind BC’s interest in David Lee than simply improving their depth. I think that trading for Lee gives the Raps a starting PF and gives BC more options when trading Bosh. I expect there is at least one potential Bosh trade on the table that BC would make, providing he has another legit starting PF, such as Lee. With Lee on board, BC could trade Bosh for a starting SG, depth and draft picks, and he won’t be left with a glaring hole at PF.
At the very least, this is a very exciting offseason to be a Raps fan!
Precisely, and that too is reality, since Bargs isn’t going anywhere.
Thus far, I have neither seen nor read anything from Bryan Colangelo which says that he is averse to trading Andrea Bargnani, at this time, if the right proposal is offered to the Raptors? … in exchange for the 2006 No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick, who just happened to have a fairly good 2nd half to the 2008-2009 season, from an offense-only perspective.
Mr. Bargnani has a big pay raise coming his way at some point in the next 12 months [I think?] … which will almost certainly be undeserved, given his actual level of performance on the court, as a former No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick.
Unlike Mr. Bosh … who has already been a multiple time All-Star, a key member of the Gold Medal-winning Redeem Team, and is one of very few 20-10 players in the NBA, and is deserving of whatever large salaray comes his way, based upon his on-court performance to-date … Mr. Bargnani is the Raptor who looks like he will be grossly over-paid as soon as 18 months from today.
Many of this team’s perceived problems simply disappear if you replace Mr. Bargnani with another youngish asset that can blend in properly with Chris Bosh … or, whoever it is that the Raptors eventually choose to take his place in their line-up beside Calderon and DeRozan, et al.
Dealing Bargnani now … would actually show some type of FORESIGHT on the part of Raptors management instead of perpetually trying in vain to close the barn door after the cow has already vacated the premises.
I disagree with your take on Bargnani’s future production for the Raps, but I agree that this upcoming season will go a long way towards proving his future worth with the Raps. If he has a season that shows no progress and/or consistency then next summer will be a similar situation as this summer, except will be discussing trade scenarios for Bargnani instead of Bosh.
Which brings me to Bosh… your points about Bosh’s worth are absolutely valid. The reason I think the Raps should (and will, if they acquire Lee) explore trades for Bosh right now, have nothing to do with his value to the Raps, but rather the liklihood that he will walk away after this season. We will get more for him now, than we would at the trade deadline or next summer. It’s not that I hate Bosh and want him gone, but rather I think the best move for building the strongest Raps team for this season and especially long-term, is to trade Bosh. My point about Lee is that getting him first, would make any Bosh trade much more palatable to Raps fans who will hate to see him traded.
… and my point about getting David Lee now is that his acquisition should be in exchange for Bargnani, not Bosh, which would then enhance the Raptors chances of actually retaining Bosh long term next summer OR at least provide them with a solid young multi-dimensional player [in the form of D-Lee] to go with whatever players will be brought in to replace Bosh if he chooses to walk away in free agency next summer.
————————————–
IMO, having Bosh walk away next summer … which would open up a big salary slot … is a much better option than replacing Bosh before then with another team’s less-than desirable player[s] who don’t come close to having the same value on the open market, in their own right, and to whom the Raptors would then be tied for the length of their existing contract.
Given the player who Bargnani is … a good offensive player with limitations in his all-around game … he is simply not the ROCK this franchise should be building its foundation upon.
I would agree with you except for 2 main points:
1 – I don’t think any acquisition will keep Bosh.
2 – Why trade Bargnani when we can sign Lee as a restricted free agent, or do a sign-and-trade for some of our junk (Hump/O’Bryant/Jawai), since the Knicks just want to dump his salary.
3 – Cap space in 2010 doesn’t do for us what it does for teams like NY, NJ, etc… we don’t attract free agents
a Lee/Bargnani front court makes me nervous man: really soft defensively…
From hoopshype today:
I checked in with Toronto and was told Chris Bosh would not be part of any trade conversations and the reply I got from the Knicks end was that there wasn’t much interest in any other player on that roster to even begin discussing a deal for Lee. Newsday
That says it all … only interesting trade chip is Bosh .. not Bargnani .. not Calderon .. not anybody… only Bosh…!!!
FAQ,
Perhaps what you really mean to say then is:
“That says it all … according to what you read on Hoopshype.”
When there’s a quote provided from Donnie Walsh or Mike D’Antoni then I think it might lend more credence to the notion that there is no interest on the Knicks part in acquiring a player like Bargnani … which, if true, should really send a clear signal to all fans that HE is NOT the sort of player who the Raptors should even be thinking about building around in the event that Chris Bosh does happen to walk away from their team next summer during his opt out.
The player[s] who your team SHOULD build around are the ones who are highly sought after by the other teams in the the league … not those who you actually might have trouble just giving away.
But khandor … Bosh will be leaving the Raptors because he will be giving up on the team, the coaching and the management. He wants to go to a potential playoff team … and not be part of an uncertain future with the Raptors … a team filled with scrubs and a team decent FAs will not consider even with Bosh on the team. Can’t you see that .. or you can’t see the forest for the trees ..???!!!
Incorrect
marions boobs are starting to sag. drop the current offer by a million
BC is missing the boat. Many names are gone. Can’t wait to see if there is a trade up his sleeve with Bosh because he seems to be sleeping.
oh god no, real gm and the globe and mail are reporting we’ve offered a four year 32-34 million dollar deal to Marion.
fuckkkkk, why does colangelo always shit the bed and overpay
I think we have no choice but to look at it as, would we prefer if he walks or 4/34
I wouldn’t, so I’m fine with the deal. Obviously I’d prefer 3/21 but whatever.
We have to face the fact that Toronto needs to pay a premium for players.
Well, the money is as expected, the length is a year too much. I would’ve waited and seen what other teams might offer before putting forth an offer. Even if I had to put an offer in first I’d start a bit low and then move up rather than start high and move higher.
Hopefully the deal is structured so the big money is paid in a year which makes sense for us.
A year too long but 8 per is about what I expected. I was afraid the negotiation would get drawn out and Marion would show up bitter and unmotivated…hopefully we can avoid that.
“why does colangelo always shit the bed and overpay”
Who has he overpaid? (I’ll accept Pheonix players if you can find them).
Jason Kapono, anyone?
Shawn Marion should not get anything more than 3yr/21mil and even that is too much in my opinion
4yr/$32mill … nice coin huh?
Really nice coin for Marion. He is a shell of his former self and to get a 4yr deal in this market after he averaged 12 and 8 is a revelation for him.
I find it interesting that Ariza and Artest both have agreed to mid level contracts, and supposedly Ariza was offered substantially more from Toronto. If that is true, it just adds fuel to the argument that Toronto is not a desirable destination for free agents- even though Khandor places the blame on BC’s abilities as a general manager. Based on what I have read on the internet, Toronto has been in talks with a lot of the major free agents this summer, so obviously Colangelo has been active according to these reports.
I would have rather overpaid Ariza over Marion, considering the age and all, but we needed to round out our roster with some depth, and being able to sign Delfino and Marion certainly accomplishes that. Plus, we need rebounding and Marion addresses that as well.
I’m still concerned about DD ability to fill the starting SG role
Hey, at least Turkoglu’s wife likes Toronto…
Rod,
—————————————
If that is true, it just adds fuel to the argument that Toronto is not a desirable destination for free agents – even though Khandor places the blame on BC’s abilities as a general manager. Based on what I have read on the internet, Toronto has been in talks with a lot of the major free agents this summer, so obviously Colangelo has been active according to these reports.
—————————————
* What you wrote should actually read, instead, as:
“If that is true, it just adds fuel to the argument that Toronto may not be a desirable destination for free agents BECAUSE of Bryan Colangelo’s inabilities as a general manager, after being on the job for the last 3.5 years.”
* Activity should NOT be confused with actual accomplishment.
Do you have someone in mind for a replacement?
Adam,
1. No, I do not have someone in mind, who would have the immediate respect of the faithful fans in Raptorville.
2. Yes, I do have different individuals in mind … who would draw hoots and howls from the faithful fans in Raptorville that think Bryan Colangelo is somehow the answer to what ails this franchise, by himself.
3. I’ve said on more than one occasion now that, IMO, Bryan Colangelo should NOT be fired by the Raptors, and it’s still my belief that he should be given the opportunity to fix the mess he’s made with this team.
4. That said … if you also asked me which names on this list I would trust to make the basketball-related decisions for a team that I personally owned:
MLSE
BOARD OF DIRECTORS
Larry Tanenbaum Kilmer Sports Inc.
Richard Peddie MLSE
Erol Uzumeri Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan
Bob Bertram Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan
Dean Metcalf Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan
Glen Silvestri Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan
Robert MacLellan TD Capital Group
Ivan Fecan CTVglobemedia
Dale Lastman Goodmans LLP
MLSE MANAGEMENT
Richard Peddie President & CEO
Tom Anselmi Executive Vice President, COO
Ian Clarke Executive Vice President, CFO, Business Development
Bob Hunter Executive Vice President, Venues & Entertainment
Bryan Colangelo President & General Manager, Toronto Raptors
Brian Burke President & General Manager, Toronto Maple Leafs
Robin Brudner Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Corporate Secretary
Mardi Walker Senior Vice President, People
Chris Hebb Senior Vice President, Broadcast & Content
Dave Hopkinson Vice President, Corporate & Community Partnerships
Kevin Nonomura Vice President, Finance
Beth Robertson Vice President, Ticket Sales & Service
Patti-Anne Tarlton Vice President, Live Entertainment
TORONTO RAPTORS
Bryan Colangelo President & General Manager, Toronto Raptors
Wayne Embry Senior Basketball Advisor
Maurizio Gherardini Senior Vice President of Basketball Operations
Masai Ujiri Assistant General Manager/Player Personnel
Marc Eversley Assistant General Manager/Player Development
Jim Kelly Senior Director, Player Personnel
Steve Fruitman Senior Director Basketball Administration
Jay Triano Interim Head Coach
Alex English Assistant Coach
Mike Evans Assistant Coach
Gord Herbert Assistant Coach/Player Development
Micah Nori Director, NBA Scouting
Bob Zuffelato Scout
Eric Hughes Basketball Development Consultant
Scott McCullough Head Athletic Trainer
Keith D’Amelio Assistant Trainer/Strength and Conditioning
Rory Mullin Assistant Trainer/Athletic Therapist
Ray Chow Massage Therapist
Dr. Paul Marks Team Medical Director/Orthopaedic Surgeon
Dr. Howard Petroff Assistant Team Medical Director
Kevin DiPietro Equipment Manager / Travel Coordinator
Paul Elliot Assistant Equipment Manager
Doreen Doyle Team Services Coordinator
Willis Richardson Team Security Consultant
Casey Whalen Assistant Video Coordinator
Jon Goodwillie Assistant Video Coordinator
Graeme McIntosh Assistant to General Manager’s Office
Courtney Charles Assistant, Basketball Operations
Jim LaBumbard Director, Media Relations
Jamie Deans Coordinator, Media Relations
Roven Yau Coordinator, Media Relations
the only individual who I would have any degree of faith in is the one which I’ve placed in bold.
An organization which succeeds in a big way in this league cannot operate like THAT.
steve fruitman and the teachers would also be great
Due credit needs to go to “Brain Colangelo” for submitting the following comment in this thread:
—————————————
Brain Colangelo says: Jul 3, 2009 at 10:36 pm
steve fruitman and the teachers would also be great
—————————————
Brain Colangelo was the comment contributor in this thread who identified Steve Fruitman as an individual in whom confidence could be shown to provide sound judgment, as far as the making of a basketball-related decision for the Raptors.
According to Bryan Colangelo, himself, in his press conference today, Mr. Fruitman is actually the person responsible for generating the idea to combine Orlando in with the Sign & Trade of Shawn Marion to Dallas, via Memphis.
I would now add Steve Fruitman’s name onto my list, as well, in addition to Wayne Embry’s name.
I would LOVE to see a bargnani for lee trade.
I’d get to watch bargnani crush it in dantonis system here in ny.
Bosh will still bolt after the season.
And your “acumen” would be off the charts!!
Aaaaaaaand…. Turk agrees to sign with Portland.
*sigh of relief*
Back to business BC: sign Marion and move on.
The only way I’m upset about this Marion signing is if it is indeed for 4 years and that much money. I feel like that would be a panic move.
I would have loved hedo, but after a few days I realized that was too much money.
Given the state most of the world is in financially I can appreciate colangelo not rushing into anything. And in retrospect that Turk contract could backfire.
Ariza would have been stupid. I don’t see him as anything more than a role player, and it’s just too much money for a guy who gets injured a lot.
Marion brings the same thing consistently and even though he’s lost his sex appeal (see: the picture), he provides this team with something it needs plus the ability to show demar a few things (please not his jumper).
I think what’s important now is how we use the rest of the money we have.
Can we please forget delfino and go for childress???????
Oh and my post seems a little contradicting. I still believe Marion is coming at a steep price, but I appreciate how we waited the Turk scenario out.
I don’t think we “waited” the Turk scenario at all, he just happened to agree before Colangelo tendered his offer. Marion was Colangelo’s man from Day 1 and he said so after the season, I don’t think he even entertained signing Turk.
This is the offer Colangelo was always going to offer Marion, it was not influenced by any other free agent move.
I agree 100% with your first paragraph. I will guarantee that Hedo was never a big priority and it’s why I said, with full confidence and conviction, 2 days ago that we dropped out. There were a few calls made, but Portland’s offer was unmatchable. Hedo had us on a shortlist and that was the only truth to the many rumours.
I agree 97% with your second paragraph. I think, if it happens, it is 1 year longer than BC hoped.
Boing!
Turk is going to Portland…
So is that good or bad?
good…for a team looking to poach one of the blazers many young 2s & 3s, each & every one of whom i’d rather have over hedo.
+ 1
Here is a far-flung idea…why don’t the Raps offer Iverson a one-year deal. They need a player that can create shots, let him start at the two…its not like we have a starter there anyways (DeRozan is not a starter). While it is risky, consider that we might not get anyone else of value. There is little demand for him so he would come cheap. And, if he has a good year and we can trade him for assets at the deadline. Just an idea…
well, besides being a volume shooter, a questionable locker-room guy (esp. if he isn’t getting minutes/looks), no longer near the (over-rated) defensive player he once was, and would make the raptors backcourt instantly the worst defensive one in the L…it’s awesome.
Iverson belongs in Charlotte. I’m not sure if Triano has the will or commands the respect necessary to coach Iverson. I think it’s similar to why Artest wouldn’t work out here.
khandor
youre gonna trade away the second best player on the team when you know that your best player is leaving next year what kind of logic is that
magix2k7,
IMO, the depth chart on the Raptors right now looks something like this:
1. Bosh
2. Calderon
3. Marion
4. Parker
5. Evans
6. Delfino
7. Bargnani
8. Humphries
9. Douby
10. DeRozan
11. Ukic
12. Banks
13. O’Bryant
14. Mensah-Bonsu
in terms these players ability to all-around performers in the NBA, based upon what they’ve done in the NBA to this point in their careers.
If they all line-up for the Dinos on opening night and then make it through the year, it should be expected that Bargnani takes a significant step up this season … to become the 3rd best player on this roster. If this happens then he would justify the rasie he is in line for at some point next year and the team would have a better shot at keeping Bosh, in part, because he feels like there are at least three other youngish players on the team who are capable of growing with him into a title contender as a member of the Raptors team.
IMO, when Chris surveys the lay of the land right now in Raptorville, he only sees himself and a 100% healthy Jose Calderon fitting into that exact sail boat.
Khandor … In any future observations, please assume that Bosh will be leaving the Ratpors sooner or later. Your pathetic attempts to convince anybody who reads your comments here or on your blog that Bargs should be traded to keep Bosh are … not reality.
FAQ,
Just one of the many things which you sometimes seem not to fathom is the perspective that goes like this:
Bargnani should be trade by the Raptors whether or not Bosh stays or Bosh leaves.
As a former No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick, unfortunately, Andrea Bargnani is not the type of player a team should build around if it is legitimately trying to construct a roster which will be capable of contending for a league championship one day in the future … if the Point Guard on that team happens to be Jose Calderon.
Bosh is a good fit beside Calderon.
DeRozan is a pretty good fit beside Calderon.
Bargnani is a poor fit beside Calderon and a poor fit beside Bosh.
PS. The only reason why Bargnani is still on this squad has to do with either the stubborness of the GM or his lack of basketball acumen.
PPS. I’d be willing to bet a sizable amount of money that Wayne Embry has told Bryan Colangelo to trade Andrea Bargnani several times in the last 3.5 years.
PPPS. I would also be prepared to bet a sizable amount of money that there have been several players on the Raptors teams these past 3.5 seasons who happen NOT to like Mr. Bargnani very much as a teammate.
Bargnani is staying and Bosh is gone .. just accept that reality. There is nothing that will keep Bosh on the Raptors beyond 2010, and that should be evident to you … so please stop promoting future scenarios that include Bosh … HE’S HISTORY …!!!!
Khandor,check out the big Turks numbers for the regular season compared with Barg’s numbers…..and what did Turk just agree to ?
You are incorrect in your assessement.
d279,
As a basketball player, in the NBA, Andrea Bargnani plays a completely different game in comparison with the big Turk.
The next paint-by-numbers GM who leads his team to a NBA Championship … will, in fact, be the 1st.
Denver has done a great job after having shifted more of their focus upon advanced metrics for the purposes of scouting.
Brasky,
If possible, could you please show the way to a link where either Mark W. or Rex C. say something directly related to that observation you’ve just made? … as, so far, I have been unable to find something to that effect.
Thanks, in advance.
Swap Calderon for Marion.
Brasky,
I’d have no problem accepting that flip-flop at all.
Turkugly gone to Portland … now could BC snag Rudy Fernandez, who indicated he would go to Europe if the Turk was acquired ???!!!!
Interesting …. who could be traded for Rudy … O’Bryant??.. future trade pick??
As long as there is a big question mark over Bosh’s future with the Raptors, no significant FA will consider joining the Raptors … because the team is on the verge of blowing up anyway.
please some one buy Shawn a scooter a la Monta so we can void his contract.
1st couple 3 yrs is ok but that 4th year, man its going to hurt unless its a team option or only patially gauranteed.
“Sources told ESPN.com that the Raptors are offering a four-year deal in the $36 million range, but Marion is said to be seeking a five-year deal in the $50 million range,”
well, if marion is so delusional that he thinks any team is going to pony up that kinda $$ over that term, he might want to get used to being a FA…’cause he’s gonna be sitting around for a while. there hasn’t been much chatter around the league for him in the 3 yr/$18-$21M range…a GM who signs him to a 5 yr/$50M deal will be tarred & feathered – deservedly so. like, holy fuck, i like shawn, but GET OVER YOURSELF. he’s coming off a deal in which he was GROSSLY overpaid, his production/value have diminished significantly – seems more than ever to have been a product of the suns’ system – and now he wants an even more egregious contract? we all know he’s got a huge fucking ego, but this takes it.
of course, it’s all conjecture, and the details are likely somewhat off…but no one familiar with marion’s personality should be at all surprised that he continues to live with the delusion that he’s an upper-echelon player.
i’ve been more than willing to give BC the benefit of the doubt in many instances, but if there’s a 4th year (let alone a 5th) in any deal that avgs more than $7M per, that’s it.
Hedo’s agent made contact with the Raptors late this afternoon. Portland deal dead.
AltRaps,
Link, please?
don’t agree with khandor much but i second…where is this info from?
Hedo info is in our links section to the right.
re: Marion
the plot thickens …
Can you guess which part of this article I, personally, like the best?
“The Raptors finished a disappointing season strong by having Marion and Andrea Bargnani flanking Chris Bosh in stead of playing a traditional center.” *smile*
Altraps, I guess these recent developments with Turkoglu are inconsistent with your earlier statement:
“I agree 100% with your first paragraph. I will guarantee that Hedo was never a big priority and it’s why I said, with full confidence and conviction, 2 days ago that we dropped out. There were a few calls made, but Portland’s offer was unmatchable. Hedo had us on a shortlist and that was the only truth to the many rumours.”
Nope…I stand by it. We did indeed drop out. We didn’t pursue Hedo for the past 2 days until contact was made today about possibly doing a deal that is back end loaded, allowing the Raptors the room to breathe this year and next, but also supply more money than Portland was willing to give up with the looming CBA and also some of their worries about the cap announced next week.
Prior to today, the deal requested was not back end loaded and would have eaten up more of our cap in the first 2 years, so Portland’s offer was “better” than ours.
From ESPN, posted at 11:39:
“The Raptors expect to have about $10.1 million in cap space to give to Turkoglu for his first-year salary; he would get an eight percent annual raise over the next four seasons of the deal, a source told ESPN.com.”
Again, I stand behind my sources.
Where are your sources that the contract for Turkoglu is any different then a standard contract or that the terms changed in the last 2 days. The offer looks to be a standard contract of 5 years starting at 10.1 Million with annual increases of 8%. How exactly is that back-end loaded when its a standard player contract?
There have been rumours that Toronto was waiting to see what Portland’s final offer would be and Toronto would then make its offer.
ok…everyone close your eyes. think back to the end of last season but imagine that we were finishing the year with J.O. and Moon but that both were at the end of their contracts. If we could have dreamed what free agent we could sign we would have been drooling over the possibility of Marion…except we would never think he would come here. Now, 5yrs/$50 million is crazy talk but i’m sure we would have been ok with 4. just pretend we didn’t already have him and then how good would he look?
jc,
I, for one, would not have been in favour of signing Shawn Marion this summer, of all the players available to patrol the #3/SF position for the Raptors next season, at that price-tag, if the exchange was for Jermaine O’Neal [i.e. Ford + Nesterovic + 2008 No. 17 Draft Pick + Baston + Villanueva] and Jamario Moon [i.e. a very cost effective and versatile player] … although you are perfectly entitled to speak for your own perspective.
3 years 21 mil
take it or leave it.
If he leaves it we move in to sign and trade scenarios.
I think after 6 weeks he is going to demand a trade anyway.
He was not happy making 19mil playing in Phoenix with Nash.
He was not happy making 19mil playing in Miami with Wade.
He will not be happy making 7-8ish here.
The problem is who even wants him in a sign and trade and are they really going to give us a legit SF in return because if they had one the would not want Marion anyway unless they are planning at playing him at the 4.
AI may be the answer. Maybe you have trade to Jose for Rondo due to the lack of D Iverson and Jose would provide in the backcourt.
I know I will be called crazy but he would sell tickets and make us fun to watch.
Rondo/??????
Iverson/Delfino
Derozan/Klieza
Bosh/Reggie
Andrea/Rasho
Not saying Drozan should start right away but hoppefully he develops and deservest to start at some point.
Well, well it seems that Hedo has rejected the Portland offer and negotiations have ceased according to Jason Quick of The Oragonian. With Marion’s deal also in limbo negotiations could become favourable for the Raps although 4year deals for these players scare me and 5 send my PB through the roof.
I’d just as soon walk, no run from a deal anything beyond MLE and 3yrs.
Shop elsewhere BC.
Childress and/or Klieza.
Well, 5 years and $56mil would probably give you a heart attack.
Don’t believe it, though.
IF we sign Hedo how could will fill the rest of our roster????
Salaries are not my specialty … but, renouncing Marion might allow the Raptors to create a roster which would look something like this:
Bosh 16.0 M
Turkoglu 10.0 M
Calderon 8.0 M
Bargnani 6.0 M
Parker 5.0
Evans 5.0 M
Banks 5.0 M
Humphries 3.0 M
Delfino 3.0 M
DeRozan 2.0
Ukic 1.0 M
O’Bryant 1.0 M
Mensah-Bonsu 1.0 M
which, I think would total approx. $66.0 M for next season.
pretty sure they’d have to renounce CD & AP as well as marion in order to sign hedo. whether they’d be able to re-sign them after renouncing them is something i’m not sure of.
not a fan of this move, if it comes to fruition…just overpaying another 80% guy. how do they fill out the roster? who backs up jose? who defends the opposition 3’s? in all honesty, i’m not sure what’s worse…marion at 4/$36 (or 5/$50 like he wants), or hedo for 5/$55. they’re both entering the twilight’s of their respective careers, you can’t expect either to improve, and let’s not pretend that hedo is anything but a below-avg defender…and that marion is a below-avg offensive player (for the position). both are flawed, both will be overpaid.
so if CD & AP are renounced, and hedo signs, that still leaves open the possibility of signing kleiza, but they’ll still need to find a cheap, legit back-up PG.
Is Bosh necessary with Hedo on board??? Maybe BC could trade Bosh for a package of players with Biedrens or Lee … and still ‘renounce’ Delfino, Parker, Marion, whoever.
BC knows he’s gotta apply a solid enema to the Ratpor roster if he wants the team to reach the playoffs … otherwise it’s back to rebuilding around Hedo, Bargs, Jose, DeDe … ya think …???!!!!
Delfino would have to renounced no?
*be renounced
Doug Smith scooped that on the Fan 590
He hinted backing out was an option
The turkish Michael Jordan
Barnes
D Jones
Delfino
Maybe Rasha
Delfino has been waiting even if they renounce his rights he can sign back later this summer no? He is just no restricted any long!?!
Anyone?
pretty sure your right we would just lose the right to match i think
He been doing such a terrific job since JO and Moon, I’m still hopeful they don’t blow this. Course, if nothing materializes out of Bosh, 4 or 5 from now won’t matter anyways.
Globe and Mail claiming they have confirmation that a deal, in principle, is done.
alt raps you like the deal????
I like the deal if we are getting something back for Marion. If we end up renouncing outright, no.
I have to hope BC has something in motion to sign & trade one or all of the 3-4 guys we have to renounce, especially if we lose the MLE as well.
From Yahoo sports: TUrkoglu backed out of the Portland deal and wants to sign with TOronto, although he still thinks he’s getting 5 years $56 million, which I can’t see happening, as Delfino will most likely be signed. 5 years for Turk or 4 years for Marion, I’m not sure which is better
BOH!!
Turk > Marion
Turk is taller, a year younger, a much better ball-handler, is able to create his own shot and carries significantly less “ego baggage”. He’s a better player than Marion and a better fit for the Raps.
Plus, Marion’s athleticism will hopefully be replaced by DeRozan.
BOH!!
hedo ftw
But years?!? Adding more unathleticism to the raptors, adding the fact that Hedo plays an almost identical to Bargs. Although hopefully this will get the ball out of Jose’s hands quicker, and improve movement on offense
ESPN is stating its 5 years and $52 million, not 5 and 56, and Truehoop is also confirming the offer as $2 million more than Portland(which was 5 and $50 million). It is also being stated the deal is back end loaded, so its possible we have enough to sign someone else as well.
in bc i trust.
Congratulations you beat Pritchard – now what?
What a maroon, I can’t believe BC did this after the JO mess.
Chisholm was much too kind to hold off judgement till further development, for my money, Hedo above MLE and longer than 3 yrs is sheer incompetence on the Clippers/Grizzlies level.
Fire BC and get Hedo the scooter I initially directed to Shawn.
When the next shoe drops, will Bosh be gone … and we will see Biedrins or Lee playing for the Ratpors … who can say …????
I’ve never liked the Hedo idea, and it’s because of the money/age. It’s a bad deal and would signal a prolonged attempt to keep Bosh, which, even if possible, won’t mean a championship Raptors squad.
I dunno. I don’t mean to dilute the Heed’, I just hope that the CB4 is given a new home, perhaps with Lee, Chandler, and Hughes (to round out the numbers) returning in a sign-and-sign-and-trade.
I for one like the move for Hedo, after seeing consistent strong performances throughout the playoffs. But it still begs the question how bosh fits in to this team, we now have two strong shooting big men who can spread the floor and pass the ball. what we now need is a low post big man who loves the boards, not a athletic big man that prefers the high post. If we ever want to get a rebound, a must for a 3-point shooting team, which is what the current roster resembles, we need a rebounding specialist desperately!!
evans anyone?
Wow…I was opposed to Hedo coming for that much money but still this signing will get Raps more buzz around the league. And maybe it will get the NBA to believe that the raps are in it to win. Still its a huge gamble.
If we sign Turk, then use some of our mid-level to sign Kleiza or Delfino, then that leaves us with only 3 wings, so unless Bc manages to trade Hump or sign and trade Parker for another wing then we again have no depth at the 2/3 position
Wow! Ok so waking up here in the UK to the news that I didn’t want to hear and now I’m getting all sorts of conflicting feelings. I was totally set on the fact that Hedo was potentially a one system / quad man… would struggle anywhere else… will be too old to play well in just a few years… all the standard stuff.
Yesterday my opinion started to shift weirdly. Not based so much on Turk, but on the reports that the Raps were lining up a massive offer for Marion, which sat even less well with me.
Also, Hollinger’s article on ESPN suggesting that teams sometimes had to overpay for the privilege of using their cap because cap disappears very quickly if you don’t use it.
Now I feel like a turncoat to myself! I turn on the PC and Turk has become a Rap, because he wants to play in the city, and play for the team (and has been offered a fuck-load of money!)and that makes me feel proud.
I’m still not sure, of course there are questions, but if Calderon stays healthy, DeRozen can play, Turk shocks me and ups his game, Bosh starts the season with something to prove and bargs plays to potential… isn’t this up there with the best squads we’ve had?
I think my overriding sentiment is this; I couldn’t stand another two or three years of failure and mediocrity. I don’t want to see the team suffer financially and I wish that we’d maybe found a Turk of our own, but… T.O. has been seen as a destination of choice. The team are a front page news story for the right reasons. Just remember, it’s not your money! Enjoy the upcoming season.
All that said… erm… how is he going to pay for this AND field a team??
its still not 85% import, bosh/banks needs to go for belinelli, turiaf and beidrins, then we gotta get delfino and klieza.
beidrins, barg, turk, derozan, calderon
belinelli, delfino, klieza, ukic, turiaf, evans
players that want to play here…
He has to get rid of Bosh right now. I’ve said it before and will say it again: Colangelo is anything but stupid. Everybody in Toronto knows this team can’t win with 6 min salary scrubs backing up the front 6. So does Colangelo. He’s been through multiple scrub heavy seasons with Toronto and can’t like the idea of another. He has a plan. He has to. This team can’t win with this lineup – the starting 6 look good. The next 6? Embarassing. Trade Bosh for three mid-level money guys; two young, one with experience.
PLEASE COLANGELO. PLEASE.
Further, the one thing i liked about turk was when anthony johnson was on the floor. stan van always made sure that turk was on the floor with the backup pg, and there wasn’t a drop off, he can do alot of things on the offensive end, lets see how this pans out. but truly i want players that want to be here, and if he is punking an american city to be here, i kinda like that.
well, this is a shocker. We’ll just have to see now how BC can fill out our bench smartly with minimum $$ players. Or, (gasp), is this team now prepared to go over the tax threshold?
One more question: who is going to rebound the ball for us?
TURKEY GLUE???
This is unreal. Portland had a verbal on Turk agreeing to them, and then he changed his mind. Wow! This would never, and I mean never, happen with an American player, and the reality is that Marion turned down or at least was still mulling over a very generous offer given market conditions by the Raptors. Marion will regret this, as he will now be unlikely to get the same $ elsewhere, and may have to sign a one year deal, and wait for the 2010 Free Agent year when cap space will be plentiful. He will also be a year older – Marion is the big loser here.
As far as Turk goes, at least we have someone in crunch time that can and will make shots, effectively taking the ball out of Bosh’s hands in late game situations (we can only hope). Yes, we are less athletic, and we have little $ to work with to make any more moves, and you could make a case that we could have got a lot of other minor free agents cheap since we actually did have cap space, but if Marion effectively slapped us in the face by not accepting our offer, who else was out there for the kind of cap space $ we had to use that could be an integral part of our starting 5 in a position of need.
I am trying to stay positive on this, and let’s see how the roster gels early in the year before we diss it completely. I agree though that we have to go over the cap if necessary and MLSE had better anticipate paying some luxury tax this year. I do hope we can do a sign and trade with Orlando though as this would be a better situation for us instead of renouncing all of our players.
THats one aspect I hadn;t thought of before, good point. Now someone can create good offense in the last 3 minutes (since triano doesn’t want to try Bargnani)
Boozer (American) reneged with the Cavs in 2004 and Salmons (American) reneged with us in 2006.
I meant that it would not happen with an American player, meaning that a US born player would not have Toronto as a desirable location to play/live, not about the reneging part, and I apologize for my awful writing in not getting that point across. I knew about the Boozer/Salmons reneging before.
Did Hedo officially renege on Portland?
I couldn’t argue all that well against nay-sayers of this deal … and as I sort of agreed with those not wanting it, I was satisfied that not getting Turkoglu was probably a good thing. But now that we’ve got him, I can’t help remember all those moments while watching Turk do his thing with the Magic that I thought, “I wish we had that guy.” A few tweaks aside, we might be ready for (at least) a much better season than the last one. Go Raps!
I am like that happy cat. I found myself really put off with marion wanting more and found myself enamored of the fact that turk’s wife wanted to be here.
in life, happy = successful and I am excited about this team maybe being both. I had reached the point where I was nervous/worried about marion coming back and moping. and my son has a #31 marion game jersey! :-)
if BC can find a small piece or two this could work beautifully and I think it gives us a top 4 that can compete with clev/orl/bos!
CB on twitter: “IF IT’S TRUE..Let’s get it cracking H Turk!!!”
nice! :-)
Okay, so to those people who like to suggest they run things by Bosh, do you think they have some hope that Bosh will take less than max? Or is it a done deal deal now, ie they do this around Bargs and Turk, ’cause a max Bosh isn’t doing anything, here or there.
Yea but this isn’t the MLB where you have no cap. The team can only use so much money. Wasting all your cap space (and losing the rights 3 players) on a system player is risky as hell. IMO this a classic case of high risk and high reward. BryCo agains shows the raptors nation that he is a gambler.