DeRozan can’t be the last “new” Raptor this year.Before getting into it, I want to welcome DeMar DeRozan into the mix. I am a big fan of the kid. He instantly becomes a big part of the future. Although he is young and raw, he satisfies the starting SG role. In fact, without having played an NBA minute.
With so much uncertainty after Blake Griffin going #1, and the economic climate we are in, there was picks to be had. How do I know this? The Knicks bought the Lakers 29th pick;, the Nuggets got help for Billups in the back-court in 1st round and grabbed another kid in the 2nd; Houston seemingly bought almost every single second rounder…and so on.
What did good ‘ol Colangelo do? He plays it safe with takes DeRozan at 9 (the kid is sick, don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have him over anyone else at 9) then sat and watched while youngin’s like Sam Young, Dajuan Blair, Chase Buddinger Derrick Brown, AJ Price etc got cheaply snatched up in the 2nd round.
There was chatter that we should have traded down, to pick up Sam Young (or someone else) plus another late 1st rounder or 2nd rounder. I’m not sure a trade like that would be as easy as pie, since the 9th pick wasn’t as valuable as one would think. Getting DeRozan, Henderson or Johnson probably isn’t worth giving up 2 youngins who are just as good and cheaper.
What B.C. should have done was try to pry Minnesota’s 28th pick, Cleveland’s 30th (or any of the 2nd round picks that Houston seemed to be able to buy) and offered up some or all of Tanenbaum’s yacht money that $3mill and snatched Sam Young, giving the Raptors the follow lineup:
PG – Calderon / Ukic / Banks
SG – DeRozan / Young
SF – Young / DeRozan
PF – Bosh / Evans / Humphries
C – Bargnani / Humphries / O’Bryant / Jawai
Young represents the kind of tactical pick that helps you now and later in the sense that by the end of his rookie contract, he will have hit the peak of his development, but would probably not be a very expensive option as a bench player and still be under 30 years old. Many scouts had him ranked as high as DeRozan, but since he is older with with a lower ceiling, he dropped to 36 in the draft. Whatever, the kid is solid and can hit the ground running. Memphis LUCKED out when he fell to them where he did. He isn’t as polished off the bounce and is a bit old for a senior-24 (21 seniors in the draft this year by the way) , but as Chris Denker opined, his wins in the Big East translate to the NBA (as apposed to Joey Graham’s stellar college career and how it translated for us).
Now what? More of the same, that’s what….we look to bring BACK Carlos Delfino (as well as possibly Rasho) and re-upping Shawn Marion.
All three of these guys would be nice additions to the Raptors, but at a price. For Delfino, anything more then a 3yr/$9mil deal and I send letter bombs to MLSE. Rasho…2yr/$5mill. I don’t like throwing anymore then the mid-level at Marion and even then, no longer then 3 years (3yr/$16mill deal), even though he is probably worth a little more. As entertaining as he is Twitter (here, here and here), the guy is older, and if we run the risk of losing Bosh this year, we need to go young and/or be financially flexible (aka solid cap management).
This is who B.C. thinks can help us out?See, these are the safe, perpetual treadmill moves B.C./MLSE are great at making that will win us 40-45 games (depending on how well we start the season), compete for the 7th/8th playoff spot (depending on how crappy the bottom half of the east is playing), piss off/alienate our franchise players, and jade the fan base. What exactly are treadmill moves you may ask? The whole Carlos Delfino situation for Toronto for starters:
- We trade two 2nd round picks for the guy
- He plays a season with the Raptors, then leaves for Russia
- This year’s second round pick could have landed us either Derrick Brown, Chase Buddinger or Danny Green, all of whom would have been GREAT kids to have at 2/3 spot for years to come
- We have to bring him back, cause we need him, but we could have had one of the above kids for half the price…smart huh?
I hope I am wrong, and I have a sneaky suspicion that B.C. is trying to make more then the status quo happen, but I wont hold my breath. Come opening day, I am pretty sure the Raptors will be sporting the following lineup:
PG – Calderon / Ukic / Banks
SG – DeRozan / Parker
SF – Marion / Delfino
PF – Bosh / Evans / Humphries
C – Bargnani / Rasho / O’Bryant / Jawai
What would I do if I were B.C.? Given that we have about $14.5million in cap space, and the need for a backup pg and wings, I would:
- Offer Royal Ivey a 3yr/$9mil contract
- Offer Von Wafer a 3yr/$12mil contract
- Offer Trevor Ariza a 4yr/$36mil contract
- Re-up Carlos Delfino to 3yr/$9mil contract (I could be wrong, but I think the Raptors can go over the cap to sign their own FA’s) TYPO: I originally posted $12mil, but meant $9mil.
Giving us a lineup such as:
PG – Calderon / Ivey / Ukic / Banks
SG – DeRozan / Von Wafer
SF – Ariza / Delfino
PF – Bosh / Evans / Humphries
C – Bargnani / Humphries / O’Bryant / Jawai
I think that is a pretty solid lineup, which would compete hard this coming season for the 7th playoff spot. It would surround Bosh with scorers, slashers, defenders and Bargnani…but you know, watching Delfino/Rasho will bring back fond memories of a mediocre team that got thumped in the 1st round to an Orlando team that an ex-commentator said to bring on…didn’t work then…
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Thou shall have faith.
Thee is a Leafs fan as well, so thee really has no choice.
Ariza $9 million? What are you smoking?
He is a product of Kobe and Gasol double teams. No thanks.
I was actually thinking $7mill to start and have it go up about a mill a year. I admit that it may be a bit high, but we will HAVE to overpay for any free agent to come here.
His slashing and defense is not a product of kobe/gasol doubles.
if we are going to overpay for a free agent to come here (which I do agree we may need to do)… why not on an established player rather than take a gamble on Ariza? I’m not saying Ariza didn’t have a good season, and he is a solid defender, but still 7-9 million…. you can get a good vet for that.
Problem is Ariza isn’t much of a scorer, and royal ivey could probably be had forabout 1 million a year, he’ not in high demand. I think Delfino will probably get a Sasha Vujacic contract (about $5 million a year), which isn’t too unreasonable.
I would rather pay Ariza $7mill then pay Delfino $5mill…that’s just me. I think there is a market for Ivey, he is a very serviceable backup pg, can’t have enough of those. Again, $3mill may be high, but he is in line for about as much considering the qualit of backup 1’s available.
I would agree with $7 million for Ariza, but not $9 million. But if we offer 7, then the lakers are going to match, so Delfino probably is the better bet (although I agree that $5 mill may be a little to high).
I think Ivey will most likely sign for a minimum contract this summer.
Ronnie Price was mentioned lower down in the thread, I’d prefer the Raptors to sign him. Price is the more complete player, and plays with contagious energy and hustle.
A better option again, may be the Boston Celtics’ third string point guard Gabe Pruitt. There’s a good chance that Boston either cut him loose, or that he can be acquired for a low price. Pruitt is a better defender and a much better shooter than either Price or Ivey.
I’m into royal ivey…
I mean, I’m not, but I’m into anything other than ukic.
Delfino should be worth hardly anything and it would be stupid to resign him (let alone overvalue him, which everyone seems to be doing around here).
What ever happened to the optimism of getting a Josh childress type? Someone to start at the 2 while demar learns to play basketball (3 years).
And where have I been? Since when does anyone give a fuck about o’bryant? I cannot believe his 1 1/2 decent games at the end of the season are still holding over!???
This is crazy. Obviously we are all waiving the white flag and believing colangelo is going to do nothing/the same.
I’m holding out more opinions in hopes of a real shake-up.
I uhh…not a fan of O’Bryant, but there is a team option for $1.6mill, which will probably be exercised for him to keep Jawai company on the bench.
When Childress comes back to the NBA, he will be playing for the Hawks since they are going through hell and high water to move Josh Smith to clear up space to resign him and Marvin Williams. I would like to sign Childress as the starting two though.
So, who is leaving the team in this “shake up”?
Hump? Who wants him coming off a broken leg, and even if they did, his salary is too low to command any real talent in return.
Marion in a S&T? When was the last time we saw a S&T work out for both teams in the L? Doug Smith keeps saying that he hopes/thinks that Marion can be moved for a younger version of himself. WTF? What team would do that?
Parker in a S&T? Any team that wants AP as the final piece to their playoff puzzle doesn’t want to give up a player who could come in and make an impact for us.
Calderon? When healthy, he’s a very good PG, with a big-ticket contract, and unless we’re getting a starting-calibre PG back, why do it? On the other hand, what team with a starting-calibre PG wants to give him up for JC?
Bargs? Never getting traded from Toronto during the BC era. Well, maybe, if the offer was too good to refuse, but, who’s making that offer?
Bosh? Been there, done that. If BC was going to sell high on CB, it should have been last summer, or last week. He’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe at the trade deadline, if he’s having a killer year but the team around him isn’t, and he’s willing to talk extension with the trade partner.
DeDe? Forget about it.
Ukic? Look, I kinda like Roko and his long face, but his inconsistency and small contract eliminate him from any trade talks.
So that leaves us with some kind of a trade package consisting of Banks, O’Bryant, Jawai, Voskul, Douby. Who do you propose we try to get back for that motley crew?
Face it, BC has no cards to play, with the exception of being able to negotiate some sweetheart deals with the likes of Marion, Delfino, Rasho, AP, or maybe some under-the-radar 2/3 that falls through the cracks.
Agree 100%. We either go hard into the tax or we sit on the sidelines for another year saying “man, that guy would be great for us”.
+ 1
ROTD.
+1
My question about guys like Brown and Young is (1) will they be better than Joey/Delfino; (2) when and (3) how much less would they cost.
Joey has to go I think. The thunder will give him a contract, and bring a hometown college hero back.
As for Brown/Young being better then Joey/Delfino, I don’t think they will be much better, but I bet that both Brown and Young’s combined contracts will be less then Delfino’s this season. If we could have Delfino for $3mil, a year, I would rather go that route, but I doubt it goes down as such.
Nice read. Personally I am 100% completely ok that Colangelo didn’t go for another pick. Young would have been nice sure, but I think the others are too much of a gamble to give up a roster spot to this season. I truly believe that the focus needs to be on this season if Bosh is staying.
Something will happen in FA. Marion needs to come back in my mind. Parker, my favourite Raptor of years past, has possibly run his course *sniffle*. He should go get some European money to close out his career. If we can get one more banger with a bit of a scoring punch, possibly with a sign and trade for Hump et all (hahahaha … not quite) we’ll be ok this year. There are a few FAs that fit the bill and are affordable.
The biggest key for the Raps this season is having a healthy roster in my mind.
Those moves would only happen and work out in video games. Real life isn’t as simple as saying we should’ve just paid $3 mil a piece for 2nd round picks (in a year where the lottery picks aren’t guaranteed to work out) and hey what the hell let’s just go over the cap, I’m sure everyone would be ok with that.
The way some of you people write you’d think GM’s are playing a sim game rather than being an employee of a company working their ass off to keep their jobs while competing against 29 other employees in the league who are doing the same exact thing.
First you said that you’d “send letter bombs to MLSE” if they offered Delfino more than 3yrs/$9mil and then you said to offer him 3yrs/$12mil.
Ivey and Wafer are not the answer.
Yea, clearly a typo, I meant 3yr/$9mil contract.
As for the letter bomb…it only applies if Delfino gets a $5mil/year deal (similar to what MoPete got)
KABOOM! lol.
a few notes:
- I think the right move was to save the money for next year when i) the draft is deeper and ii) picks will likely be cheaper as the economy fades, the cap drops and people are scurrying around to be turned down by lebron;
- there is a HUGE overvaluing of players in the draft before they play. (as I read elsewhere) as soon as they play a game it is like driving a new car off the lot!
- delfino at 3yrs/$9m and marion at 3yrs./$21m will be quality moves and will set up with a fairly complete roster that imho will greatly surprise this year;
- signing AP (2yrs/$4m?) will set up as backup 1/2 and allow BC to not have to sign another backup point (calderon 30-32 min, parker 10 min (at the 1) and ukic 6-8 min);
- I think people are missing how little shaq and VC will help those teams. shaq will clog the lane on lebron and VC will NEVER win anything big. he IS a loser.
“VC will Never win anything big. He IS a loser.”
Love it…. need to make a T-shirt
Ya,continue to sream out his name as he kicks our ass…I would take him back in a heart beat !!!
Ditto. We would have been a playoff team every year he was here with Bosh. Every. Year.
i kno i was bout to say if vc stayed patient and bosh develops like he did now the raptors would be contenders easily
that maybe the case… but he was a traitor to this team and to this city. He could have become Lebron James/Kobe Bryant and I would still not want him back. He sold out (and in part ruined this team for years to come) with his selfishness and ignorance. Other teams can have him and other teams can win with him. I would NEVER want to see him in a Raps uni again. Winning a championship wouldn’t be worth that. You can only sell your soul to the devil once.
+666
Just for the record, Babcock ruined this team with his inept handling of the vince carter situation from the moment he got here, till the moment he traded him for a bag of day old donuts.
I agree Babcock was a big part of this teams failures pre-BC… but VC’s statement that he didn’t want to dunk anymore, his lack of ANY desire on the court, and saying he wanted out of Toronto completely destroyed his trade value.
I totally agree, but Kobe made similar statements in LA, Kipchuk was able to deal, Pierce said similar things in Boston, Ainge was able to deal…so yea, VC is goof ball, but better management would have done a … better job of handling it. No?
difference is though that those players didnt want out of the city. They werent happy with their teams or the direction they were headed… and the GMs were able to solve that. VC on the other hand simply wanted out of Toronto. What team he played for (contender or bottom feeder) didnt matter.
Better management would have almost definetely led to a better situation no doubt. But once those words left VCs mouth..his value plummeted to a portion of his actual worth.
For sure…but better management COULD have averted them there words…not saying it would have, but maybe…
I do not think that it was the end of the world when the Raptors failed to pick up a late pick to grab a player to fill a team need. Team needs can be addressed elsewhere. However, I disagree with the idea that the cost of picks will go down if the cap drops in the next couple of years, and I think that the strategy of attempting to get serviceable backup type players as 2nd round picks is a very good idea.
Explanation…The rookie salary scale allows teams to potentially draft players for less than their market value if those players were on the free agent market. What are the chances that Blake Griffin signs a max deal right out of collage if there is no draft? I would guess, pretty high.
If serviceable backup types fall to the second round, these players are now in positions where they are way undervalued in terms of cost vs. potential production. In a draft that has been perceived to be the worst in nearly a decade, several “serviceable backup” types STILL FELL to the second round (Young, Blair, Brown, etc.,). NBA teams that get these 2nd round picks into their regular rotation have a large advantage over teams that fail to do this because of the ceiling on spending. So, as the cap threatens to shrink, it makes sense to me that the market for potentially undervalued players would rise, making the cost of these picks more expensive.
If the asking price for pick 39 or 40 was indeed $3 million, a pick that Colangelo was targeting to get Brown, I would make that move 100 times out of 100 (if the goal is to field a contending team that is also cap friendly as to not go over the luxury tax). Now you have a player that has a very high potential to make your rotation, and that player has a negligible cap figure. It doesn’t surprise me that $2-3 mill would have been the asking price for a 2nd round pick if Brown was still undrafted at the time.
What if the player doesn’t pan out, you just wasted $3 million? I argue that more money is wasted on terrible contracts than moves like this, but the risk is worth the reward. If you were going to spend $3.5 on a backup that is a known commodity, that entire figure counts against the cap. Getting the same production out of a guy making under $750,000 is a huge advantage from a salary cap perspective.
But like I said, not the end of the world if the Raps get one or two good free agents in terms of cost vs. production. I personally really like the ideas of Brandon Bass and Dahntay Jones.
I agree with you in terms of pure numbers.. but this also assumes that the draft pick will be of equal value (ability wise) to an established player. However this is rarely the case. A proven player should always be valued over a rookie/draft. Every player has potential…. the established players have proven that they can play to that. That said… there are always exceptions (such as LBJ etc.) but they go high first round. By the time you get to the 2nd round… taking chances always becomes riskier.
Would love to see Jones in a Raps jersey.
Kudos to you, Sir.
First off I want to say I love the picture of Delfino… I’m still laughing my ass off. But there are more than a few things I need to disagree with in this articles.
- 3 mil for a 2nd rounder (especially considering the draft class) is obscene. They usually come alot cheaper than that… not to mention there are no guarantees these guys will even still be on the roster. In all honesty… how many 2nd rounders stick around for more than a few years? Yes some turn out to be major players… but most fizzle out. If we are looking at taking a valued risk… this doesn’t fit the bill.
As for the possible signings:
-I would want Royal Ivey for a lot less than that. ( I think he is a solid player… but he has had more than a few opportunities to play and has not stood out by any means)
-I’m not as sold on Wafer as alot of others. He does not like to share the ball and is streaky at best. I’d much rather have him playing against me than for me.
-7-9 mil for Ariza is really jumping the gun (if he is able to do what he did without Bryant and Gasol there I may change my mind)…. at best all that does is piss off the lakers when they match the contract offer.
Delfino… I don’t think he is going be the difference between a winning and losing season… but the guy has proven he has game and plays hard every night (if he would just be a bit more selective in his shooting… he could become a real threat as a player). He is another option as a back up (or 3rd) pg. If he is willing to come back and play for the right price (like around 3 mil a year… hopefully less) you can’t pass that up. Its a much smaller risk than aiming for rookies.
I would also like to mention that losing to Orlando in 2008 was not exactly that big of a let down… well it was because the Raps are my team…. but Orlando was severly underrated that year and had matchup problems there was no way the Raps could overcome (ie. D-Howard and Turkoglu). Lets not forget that Orlando took the exact same core guys and competed for the Championship this year….
I agree on Delfino being less of a risk then a 2nd rounder.
Ariza is over valued at $7-9mill, I agree, but he is a younger Marion of sorts, and it will take money to bring him here (or anyone similar to him).
“-7-9 mil for Ariza is really jumping the gun (if he is able to do what he did without Bryant and Gasol there I may change my mind)…. at best all that does is piss off the lakers when they match the contract offer.” = LMFAO
“- 3 mil for a 2nd rounder (especially considering the draft class) is obscene. They usually come alot cheaper than that… not to mention there are no guarantees these guys will even still be on the roster. In all honesty… how many 2nd rounders stick around for more than a few years? Yes some turn out to be major players… but most fizzle out. If we are looking at taking a valued risk… this doesn’t fit the bill.”
First. Ask yourself the following questions.
Q1. Who were the 2nd Rounders that the Raptors were inquiring about?
Q2. Which teams drafted those players?
Q3. What’s the reason those teams’ asking price was $3.0 M for a “2nd Rounder”, to begint with?
Second. These are the ansers you should be able to come up with:
A1. Sam Young, Derrick Brown and DeJaun Blair.
A2. Memphis, Charlotte and San Antonio.
A3. Those teams consider those three players to be the equivalent of 1st Round Draft Picks who just happened to fall into the 2nd Round, not due to their ability as a future NBA player.
The chances are actually quite good that Sam Young, Derrick Brown and DeJaun Blair are going to be better NBA players than Carlos Delfino … possibly, as soon as this coming season. As rookies, on reasonable contracts, they have tremendous upside in comparison with a solid but wholly unspectacular player like Mr. Delfino.
As I told visitors to RR last summer, the chances were actually quite good that the Charlotte Bobcats would finish ahead of the Raptors during the 2008-2009 regular season. At this point, with the rosters the way they stand right now, the same thing holds true heading towards next season, as well.
The fact is …
1. I like DeMar DeRozan’s ability a great deal.
2. Most Raptors fans have no idea how good players like Sam Young, Derrick Brown and DeJaun Blair are going to be playing for Memphis, Charlotte and San Antonio.
3. It will be most interesting to see how Carlos Delfino performs for the Raptors next season and beyond, in comparison with the careers of Sam Young, Derrick Brown and DeJaun Blair.
I, for one, would have paid the $3.0 M [obtained from Miami] in exchange for the Draft Rights to Derrick Brown.
“The chances are actually quite good…(insert any rookie you like)…are going to be better NBA players than Carlos Delfino … possibly, as soon as this coming season” this is based on what? Absolutely zero nba ball? It may be that they are, don’t get me wrong, but this is based on absolutely no information at the NBA level of play. Although some teams to pick out gems in the late first round or second round… the majority of these players (throughout the history of the NBA) make little to no contribution to their respective teams.
This is what always bothers me come draft time… everyone expects these rookies to make immediate impacts (or future impacts with their ‘potential’). Fact is…. most do nothing… a few become amazing… and some become role/reliable players. I’d rather have a player that will and has made a contribution than someone who has no NBA experience…. if we are talking early first round this is a different story.
P.S. A3 is actually that the Knicks set a market price with their purchase of the the Lakers pick.
Both of you guys make a good point here. Brown and Young were players I would have been targeted aggressively if I were BC because that was my thought about them (what Khandor & Chris Denker have been saying about the two).
Rookies are always a crap shoot, so we will see what happens, but I think the answer to this argument will provided very quickly this season.
Hardcore Raps: I think Clevelands pick could have been had for $3mill, and it would have netted us one of the guys Khandor and I have been talking about (Brown, Young or Blair). Your thoughts?
* Portland paid the price to move up just 2 spots in the 1st Round [No. 24 to No. 22].
* New York paid the price to purchase the Lakers’ 1st Round Pick [No. 29 for $3.0 M].
* The Rockets paid the price for 2nd Round Picks from more than one team.
* According to Michael Grange: “There was also an effort to get into the second round to pick up Derrick Brown (40th, Charlotte), with the asking price in the millions. Better to keep that powder dry for free agency was the thinking in the end.”
Other teams were prepared to pay the price, while the Raptors were NOT.
———–
If MLSE isn’t prepared to price then it shouldn’t be playing in Big Boy games … while deluding its fanbase.
“If MLSE isn’t prepared to price then it shouldn’t be playing in Big Boy games … while deluding its fanbase.”
That says it all there! Get in the game, or the f*ck out of the way…
sorry also forgot to mention that I’m glad you had your crystal ball predicting the trade for Boris Diaw/Raja Bell… either that or they had nothing to do with the Bobcats improving.
Be nice dude, you are making solid comments today, don’t taint them.
not trying to be rude…
I know, just policing :)
It was evident last summer … for those that know what to look for … that the Bobcats had turned a corner of respectability. Crystal ball? If that’s the imagery you prefer to use, that’s okay by me.
Two words: Larry Brown
I agree with all points you made but the last;
I think that Shaq and Big Z each playing for a full season w/ LBJ will be able to play tight D on opposing 4s/5s while clearing a path for him to drive, and using their experience to box out for rebounds when the cavs decide to shoot the ball.
As for VC, while I do think that he acted like a loser in his last 1.5 seasons here, and I have no respect for him whatsoever, I think his aquisition by orlando is the best move of the offseason so far, and I think he will be motivated to play to his full potential, especially with 3 other all-stars in his starting line-up. Barring injury to any of those 4 players next season, I put Orlando in the EC finals. Book it.
^^^reply to Enoss^^^^
The only problem with your suggestions is that the Raps CAN go over the cap to re-sign their own players, but that would mean paying the luxury tax, which sure as hell ain’t happening.
I like Ivey as a decent value backup pg, but I agree that, for the most part, this roster won’t see too many changes before the season starts. I simply don’t see us getting significant value for Marion or Parker in a sign and trade, and I doubt BC will make a big splash on the free agent market.
Looks like were going to have to hope for good health, impact from DeRozan, continuing development from Bargnani, and consistent efforts from the supporting cast if we’re going to make the playoffs this year. I don’t think there’s going to be any major talent upgrades.
Hearing Battier’s name being murmured in trade talks lately…. too bad we don’t have much to offer up for him.
I brought up a trade proposal before last season on this site which was Bosh for Battier, Scola, filler + picks, and the readers had a field day with it. Doesn’t sound so bad now, does it?
Doesn’t sound bad now because Bosh may walk, but I would rather have the cap space then houston filler, we still have Banks toiling aimlessly here.
Not sure I’d give up Bosh in that trade. Would rather see a Battier/Bosh tandem, to be honest.
Really?! I couldn’t imagine Morey giving up gay to get him, and them trading him again, Morey seems muh smarter than that
Matt Barnes should also be a taget. He can be had for a reasonable contract, and also has the skill set to help the Raptors out. He also started for Phoenix for big stretches last year, shouldn’t be overlooked.
If we were to get Matt Barnes, Douby or Parker will have to go elsewhere. If the roster you put up is what we will have to do this season, then we are not going to make the playoffs, adding in the issue of injuries. Our frontcourt is not safe at all, I expect this team to get severely outrebounded again unless Reggie Evans starts, which I do not think should happen.
I think it is safe to say that Parker is not going to be on the Raptors this year. He can get more money in Europe, or fill out the roster of a contender.
With the lineup I suggested, I don’t think rebounding will be that bad:
Calderon – passable rebounding at the point
DeRozan – devesating rebounding at the sg postion (with size/athleticism)
Ariza – solid rebounding at small forward
Bosh – exceptional rebounding
Bargnani – worst rebounding center…ever…
Delfino also rebounds the hell out the ball from the 2 spot, and is a nice fit starting or coming off the bench beside calderon. His adequate defense somewhat balances Calderon’s ZERO defense, and his willingness to eat up some possessions Chuckfino style at a decent rate of efficiency is more valuable in this lineup than Parker and Calderon’s no shoot, no attack philosophy.
Sigh… nothing bothers me more than the “Calderon can’t play defense” comments. He had problems playing D while he was injured… to that there is little doubt. But nobody, and I mean NOBODY, complained about his D the previous 2 season or at the start of last season. Not to mention his defense was fine (although not at an elite level) at the end of last year. Don’t define him by 2-3 months of injury.
I’ll give him this next season. He has no more excuses.
except you are already looking with a critical eye and limitations instead of an open mind…. bound to lead to negative results/impressions
there were a few of us who complained about his defense for the last couple seasons man. but he had an excuse this season, i agree.
I agree there is no way you can start Reggie Evans over Bargnani, however, there is some merit into having the three of them (Bosh, Bargs, Evans) each get about 1/3 of the frontcourt minutes. Basically, the way I see it, Triano should try to have either Bosh/Evans or Bargs/Evans on the court as much as possible. The biggest problem with the Bosh/Bargs duo is a profusion of offense and a lack of defense. Evans won’t need the ball to be effective and will make up for the lack of rebounding/defense.
I’d be willing to bet that Colangelo had this in mind when he traded J-Killa for B-Grabba
Reggie evans may be a good rebounder, but he isn;t an overly good defender, Bargs is better at him man-to-man, although Reggie’s help defense may be better, I haven’t seen much of him
Yeah, he will help out the rebounding issues a lot more than the defensive issues. That is still a problem. Hopefully DeDe can lock guys down on the perimeter.
I agree w/ your point, Marc, and I like the Evans trade, but I seem to remember that last year the plan was to have either Bosh/O’Neal or Bargs/O’Neal on the court as much as possible. That didn’t work out very well.
the difference between O’neal and Evans though is that JO needed the ball. And once he had it he wouldn’t give it up. He played like this was his team (which was the exact opposite of what he said in the offseason). Having 3 bigs that always need the ball makes a team pretty one dimensional…. however, having 2 bigs that always need the ball may not be much better….
The best way to take advantage of a combination of Evans, Bosh, Marion, Rasho, Pops/Humphries is to have shooters who are actually willing to fire away at decent rates. These guys provide good offensive rebounding coverage, so its important to have some guys bombing away from beyond the arc. Calderon, Parker and Kapono, while fairly efficient, don’t really shoot all that much.
Completely off topic here, but what do the loyal RR commenters think will happen with Jamaal Tinsley this off-season?
Besides his attitude and injury problems, he is a baller, and might be had on the cheap, either from a buyout, or in a trade for banks/hump?
We would have to move more then Banks/Hump for Tinsley. I really don’t know how much of a head-case the guy is, and his contract goes till 2010/2011, but I wouldn’t be opposed to that to have him as our backup if it means getting rid of banks.
You mean we’d have to give up more to match the salaries, or based on his play?
I would think that Indy would be desperate to rid themselves of a guy with his ticket ($6 mill per year or so) who wasn’t playing.
i just checked, and the contracts do match. i thought Tinsley was in the $9mill range for some reason. BUT, all three contracts run the same length, and I would rather have Tinsley then Banks and Humphries anyday.
The guy’s such a headcase he was told to stay away from the Pacers this year. Let’s get serious.
How can you actually complain about trading 2 2nd rounders for Delfino? The guy was (and still is to a degree) loaded with potential, and it took as little as possible to get him. You’re telling me you’re equally comfortable with a rookie in the same role that Delfino would be occupying? How does that make any sense. (BTW, Aaron Williams was traded to NO for 2 2nd round picks)
Von Wafer sucks. Badly. In the words of Jeff Van Gundy: “I don’t know what going to happen when Wafer gets the ball, but I know what’s NOT going to happen: He’s NOT going to pass”.
Ariza for $9mil/year?
Praise the Lord you have no decision making input with the Raps. Horrendous suggestions, all of them.
(For the record, I like Linas Kleiza as someone mentioned elsewhere. Delfino & Marion & Rasho at a price, but no need for Rasho if Marion resigns).
Tinsley could just need a change of scenery, but the fact of the matter is he would contribute to this team a lot more then both Banks and Humphries would combined.
I complained about the whole Delfino process, not specifically trading of the two 2nd rounders. You trade two second rounders (one of whom could have been his replacement at a cheaper price).
I like how Wafer plays, but Klieza would definitely be someone i would rather have, but we have nothing to offer Denver for him.
And like i said, again, $9mill at the end of the contract, not up front. $7mill to start, and I conceded it was a more then he is worth, but the Raptors HAVE to overpay to bring a quality free agent here, period.
Kleiza is a RFA we don’t need to give anything to Denver.
I’ve always thought Tinsley would be a worthwhile gamble. Esp if all we have to give up is Banks/Hump.
Von Wafer is a perfect example of a guy who is only good in a contract year. Ariza is way too expensive for a role player who also had his best season in a contract year. Ivey wouldn’t be bad except that Ukic is an up-and-commer and as he develops will be able to create his own shot. Forget Marion; he just runs up and down the floor making dunks and layups, there’s a reason why he has been less than impressive since being dealt by the Suns. Hopefully the Raps can make a run at Hedo, or look to the trade market, where perhaps we could get rid of Humph’s rather large contract for a guy who only brings energy when he feels like it.
I guess Marion’s excellent rebounding and status as our best perimeter defender isn’t worth mentioning. Once again, Turkoglu and Bargnani in the same lineup would be a rebounding disaster.
Dude you have no idea how bird rights, the cap, or the MLE work. If the Raps sign Delfino and Marion, they have no cap space left. They have the LLE which they can use to sign Rasho, and then the MLE which will be 5-6 million.
I admit, I have no idea, but it stands to reason that signign Delfino/Marino will run us about $11mil or so, eating most of the cap space…
When we do sign those guys, do you think the mid-level over 4 or 5 years would be enough to sign Artest? lol i went this whole time not saying his name because BC wont sign him, but the guy represents a lot of what we need in one player.
Artest and Evans on the floor at the same time….bring out the hockey helmets !!!
Raps Fan,
IMO, Ron Artest is not the type of player the Raptors need at this time, without a coach like Rick Adelman. That’s a recipe for disaster.
Which leads me to my next point…coaching, LOL.
Triano is an excellent offensive coach. Iavaroni is an excellent defensive coach. Alex English will be HUGE for the development of Derozan… I think our coaching staff is pretty decent this year; like BC said, there’s nothing wrong with the coaching anymore. Any further deficiencies will be due to the roster.
Decent, yes. But you have to be more than decent to handle Ron Artest.
I’d love to pick him up if there was some way to know for sure that the maturity he showed last season will last. Unfortunately, there is no way to know for sure. Crazy Pills shall return!
Tinsley is a risk as well, but trading Banks/Hump for him is a small-risk situation. Paying Artest the big money that he (legitimately) commands, is a large-risk situation.
i think triano can handle nutcases better than mitchell. forgive me for the terribly unfair comparison, but trianos attitude is more like chuck dalys in that regard (no way am i saying he’s anywhere near chuck daly)– i think he responds well to varying personalities as opposed to mitchell who got the most out of players that responded to HIS attitude (i.e. hard nosed, yelling, scolding, benching etc).
triano can manage personalities imo and that’s how you get the most out of nutcase players.
having said that, i think artest has matured a lot and he’d probably do better in the EC–
Also the cap figure is about 10 mill not 14 mill….
I like the Calderon, DeRozan, Marion, Bosh, Bargnani lineup. It’ll cost us though.
I also like this lineup and think that with a guy like Delfino off the bench as the 6th man, and Evans and Humph as back ups in the front court- this team is really just a solid back up point guard away from competing.
khandor:
“Most Raptors fans have no idea how good players like Sam Young, Derrick Brown and DeJaun Blair are going to be playing for Memphis, Charlotte and San Antonio.”
was preceded by:
“The chances are actually quite good that Sam Young, Derrick Brown and DeJaun Blair are going to be better NBA players than Carlos Delfino … possibly, as soon as this coming season.”
Most Raptor fans don’t know how good the players will be, except Khan, who has quantified their skills and put them in a ‘goodness simulator’ to determine the probability of their goodness > Delfino’s goodness.
Personally, I think we should all believe in Memphis’ & Charlotte’s ability to evaluate talent, which is why it’s a lock those guys will be NBA starters. It seems like those teams never make a draft mistake…
Would you have minded if the raps bought the Cavs pick with the 3 mil picked either Young, Brown, or Blair.
I agree with RapsFan that we need to overpay to bring quality free agents to come to Toronto. I would give Ariza 7-9 mil a year (but I much rather have Marion) hes not like other Laker players that benefit playing along side Gasol and Bryant. Ariza is great one on one defender and is great off-the-ball-defender (very rare for young player to have both). He has really improved his 3 point jumpshooting, which could be the product of playing with the lakers but his shooting forms has always been there. He could slash and he is fearless. The most important quality that most role players don’t have is that he is cold-blooded and is not scared of taking the big shot.
*shooting form
Personally I’ve been wondering if the Lakers would be interested in a sign-and-trade of Marion for Ariza. The Lakers get a great replacement for Ariza and ensure they get something of equal value in return, and since Marion would likely take less money to play with the Lakers, a deal might get done at something like 6 mil per to start which would save both sides money. The only difficulty would be convincing Ariza that the minutes he’d get in TO would be worth the deal. Probably won’t happen, but I can dream.
The biggest factor is that Ariza can space the floor better with Lakers. Plus Marion wouldn’t fit in with the triangle offence that well
If we are going to keep Bargs at the 5 (unless BryCo gets over his man-love with Bargs) we need a rebounding 3 and Marion best fits the description
Ariza’s good defense was a major reason why Orlando’s Pick-and-roll, their bread and butter play, wasn’t as effective as it normally is.
1. What Charlotte began to do last season:
* Replacing Sam Vincent with Larry Borwn
* Holding onto Gerald Wallace [when suitors were pressing for a trade]
* Adding a vet like Juwan Howard
* Selecting DJ Augustin
* Trading for Bell & Barbosa Getting rid of
* Trading for Radmanovic & ridding themselves of A-Morrison
took them out of the laughingstock category.
2. At the end of last season the Bobcats were superior to the Raptors.
3. What’s the reason you listed Memphis and Charlotte but chose to leave out San Antonio? *smile*
4. I listed Sam Young’s name beside DERRICK BROWN and DEJAUN BLAIR because others in the on-line hoops community are considering those three draftees in a generic group as 1st Rounders who through happenstance fell into the 2nd Round.
In my book, there’s a difference between Memphis and Charlotte [new direction beginning last season?] or San Antonio [needs no explanation ... does it?].
Keep your eye on Derrick Brown … who Chris Denker and David Aldridge have now observed as being a “sleeper” in this year’s Draft.
There’s a good reason the Bobcats asking price was as high as it was when the Raptors finally came-a-calling on Thursday night.
Please no Hedo! I’d like him on a two year rental but clearly that isn’t happening so I’d rather stick with Marion because he’s a much better offensive rebounder and he can really initiate the fast break. Either way, I don’t think having Hedo in a Raps uni for the next season will necessarily be bad- it’s the subsequent years that we have to consider,and I would assume that he’ll end up like Peja Stojacovic on the Hornets, i.e. a solid shooter/contributor for a year and a half that just gets too old and can’t do anything other than shoot once in a while.
Isn’t bargs the same thing as turk? Why do we want more 7 footers to line up on the 3 point line next to our shooting and point guards?
HEDO FTL
hedo can still put the ball on the floor and create his own offense… and he’s a decent passer through open lanes. it helps when you’re playing with Dwight in the paint but yeah I can definitely see some issues with him and Bargs chilling at the perimeter. We would stretch out the defense but there is no way Bosh can handle opposing 5’s night in and night out.
and Bosh would have to claim 15 rpg to break even as a team….
Isn’t Ronnie Price exactly what we need off the bench? Hard-nosed, tough defender, attacks the basket, high energy, can play off screens. He’s a poor mans Barbosa and would instantly make our bench guard situation better. And he could easily be acquired for whatever’s left from the Marion/Hedo/Artest/etc + Delfino cap.
He was great under Adelman in Sacramento in limited minutes, and Sloan really made him a better off-the-ball player and perimeter defender. I think he’ll do best in an uptempo game. He had a killllller block on Luke Walton in transition last year and he had some choice words for Kobe and Fisher in this years playoffs– he’s the kind of tough combo guard the Raptors need.
Thoughts? If we had to sign someone on the cheap to fill out the roster, would you go for him/barnes/wafer?
Ronnie Price would be a great choice… I just don’t see Utah letting him leave very easily. The guy is a great defender with some offensive game. I would take Price over Barnes and Wafer any day. (I just don’t think he will go very cheap either though)
Agreed, that’s why I didn’t bring him up, he is a Utah system guy, no way they let him walk unless someone is offering loads more then what he is worth.
He would be a nice piece for this team though.
true, but utah has to make a choice between him and a few other free agents, namely paul millsap; and if they go all – out on millsap, that might leave them with little cap flexibility. We’ll have to wait and see, but I’d hope he’s near the top of the list of ‘fillers’ for the Raptors; as opposed to some of the names being thrown around on websites like RealGM-ugh.
actually thats a good point. Boozer, Milsap, Okur, and Price all up for FA… I doubt they can afford to keep them all…
I’m pretty sure they let Boozer walk.
yeah i’d think so too. for them, millsap > boozer, but i wonder about okur. do they let him go since they have goran suton now? can they make suton into a rotation player? meh, either way if we end up with ronnie price, thats ALL that matters XD
You have to keep one of Boozer or Okur, and I choose Memo.
Goran Suton = Greg Ostertag 2.0
Look out NBA, here he comes!
That’s pretty unfair to Suton. Have you seen him play?
He’s closer to Okur in style. He has the 3 ball, and is much more athletic than Ostertag.
I think Turk is somewhere in the middle – teams may be willing to overpay him after his Finals appearance, sure, but he’s also not as bad as most people seem to think.
i think most people agree that he’s a pretty solid player, but he’s asking for a five year deal and most people see his skillset diminishing quickly over the next 2-3 years and turning into a contractual liability like peja or jo
For what it’s worth,
Hedo Turkoglu PER (Player efficiency rating)last three years:
14.2
17.8 (Most improved player year and all-star year if I’m not mistaken)
14.8
– NBA AVERAGE IS 15
Going by this metric, Hedo is your definition of an average to slightly above average player. NO WAY should he be getting anywhere near $10
You know who is a free agent this summer….. RODNEY CARNEY!!
if i want a carney in toronto, i’ll wait for the CNE thanks!
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Comment Deleted
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Khandor’s handle is already spoken for on this site. If you do anything like this again, your IP will be banned from commenting on this site, thanks. – Raps Fan
LOL
“Khandor’s handle is already spoken for on this site. If you do anything like this again, your IP will be banned from commenting on this site, thanks”
Raps Fan, is that, actually, a *true* statement, or is it, infact, someone, pretending, to be, someone that they are not?
Those who know, know, and those who do not know, do not know.
It was someone pretending to be Khandor, we moderated it, and gave a warning. Next time person gets banned :)
Turkoglu would be a great addition to this team..a necessary clutch shooter (and playmaker) in the 4th quarter which this team DOES not have and has never had since Carter left.
Marion and DeRozan don’t shoot 3s ….if the pointy collared cunt doesn’t go after Turkoglu, he is an idiot….
What’s the point of overpaying Turk and saddling your team with that kind of contract if the talent surrounding him still won’t be enough to get you past the second round for the next 3 years (when compared to Orlando, Cleveland, etc)?
Keep in mind that in Orlando Turk gets his shots because of the way the floor is spaced – in TO he’d get crowded like mad and would have a MUCH harder time getting a shot off since we’ve got no inside game and no drive and kick game to speak of.
As long as Bargnani is starting and playing lots of minutes, we need rebounding at the 3 and 4. Turkoglu doesn’t provide this. He is also a very streaky shooter who is coming off a pretty bad year relatively speaking.
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re: “As long as Bargnani is starting and playing lots of minutes, we need rebounding at the 3 and 4.” – by Brasky
—————————————
The ANSWER to the observation which you’ve just made there SHOULD, by now, be obvious … and is provided in brilliant black & white by Rod’s concise comment:
“Trade Bargnani” – by Rod
That, or simply:
* DO NOT start Bargnani
and
* DO NOT play Bargnani major minutes [as an offensive Center who cannot Rebound effectively and provides relatively poor Team Defense].
Instead of trying to “compensate” for Bargnani’s deficiencies in every personnel decision which the Raptors make, including:
* Trading Rasho Nesterovic & TJ Ford for a player like Jermaine O’Neal
* Playing Shawn Marion out of his natural PF position
* Trading for a Rebounding “Back-up” like Reggie Evans
* Drafting a 19 year old “athlete” on the wing like DeRozan
what they should simply do instead is … what Rod said, above.
It’s nothing personal. It’s strictly business.
Shawn Marion doesn’t have a natural position.
“pointy collared cunt” = classic.
nunya’s erudition and aplomb has been missed by at least one member of the RR community.
Make that two :)
Raps Fan,
The Raptors can go over the cap to sign Delfino if they hold his bird rights which they currently do. But in order to create cap space, the Raptors have to renounce all their free agents, which means they’d lose Delfino’s bird rights.
Delfino is just coming off his rookie contract so he has a large cap hold. His cap hold is 300% of his previous contract ($1.87 million), which is about $5.6 million. The cap hold being the figure that counts against the cap until Delfino signs a contract with the Raptors or another team.
I have the Raptors cap space at a lower figure. I have $48.8 million on the Raptors books … so if the cap stayed relatively steady at $58 million, the Raptors would have $9 million in cap space.
My two favourite options for free agency are:
(1) Pretty much do nothing — minimal contracts, nothing that stretches beyond one season. Save this year’s cap space for next season.
(2) Sign Hedo Turkoglu. I think the market place for him has gotten weak with Orlando backing out, and the Raps could get a very nice deal there.
I think the worst possible decision the club can make right now is to commit medium-to-long term money to role players. That is exactly what I do not want to see happen. Unfortunately, that appears to be Colangelo’s first preference.
If we sign a aging Hedo that wouldn’t help our Rebounding woes
Now this is a truly Perimeter Frontcourt
SF- Hedo Turkoglu
PF- Chris Bosh
C- Andrea Bargnani
Nope, Hedo does nothing to improve the club’s rebounding problems.
However, Hedo does do a lot to open up the offense.
Last season the Raptors only had one player capable of beating his man off the dribble and creating for himself or others, and that was Jose Calderon. Clearly, Jose is too passive to be the only player with these abilities on the team, and would be better served as the second or third best player in this regard.
The Raptors are going nowhere without more dribble penetration, more perimeter scoring, and more creativity (too predictable currently), and wings who can actually dribble and pass the basketball.
Hedo Turkoglu gives that option to the Raptors and fixes, or at least partially fixes, this area of need. Wings who can both pass and score at a high level or a rare breed (about 10 wings scored 15+ points and handed out 5+ assists over the last two seasons), and very difficult to acquire as a result. Who knows when the next opportunity comes around to get a guy with his skill set.
Wings who can create his own offense and create shots for teammates — Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Brandon Roy, Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginobili, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Andre Iguodala, Vince Carter, Hedo Turkoglu, Stephen Jackson. Tracy McGrady when he’s healthy.
Now, obviously Hedo is very low on that list, but just making the list is impressive.
Getting a wing who can create, who can dribble, who can pass and make shots for teammates … makes a team’s offense much more dynamic and more difficult to defend.
For my money, this is the single largest problem facing the Raptors — how to acquire a player with this skill set.
He does create a more dynamic offense but I don’t think he’s good enough in this regard to make up for his lack of rebounding, which is pretty crucial next to Bargnani.
While a pretty good player and fairly clutch, overall Hedo is still more of a volume shooter who does so inefficiently.
Josh Howard would have fill that role…
1.7 career APG?
I wouldn’t say he has the ability to create shots for teammates. In fact, I’m not sure he’s even very good at creating shots for himself.
any wings out that can not only score & pass, but defend?
I think Hedo Turkoglu is a good defender.
let’s agree to disagree.
Kudos to you, Sir…The proof is in my pudding. Would you like to try some?
If you watched any Magic games this year (I’ve watched more than my fair share). Hedo cannot take the ball at the top key and break down a an opposing defendar. He mostly gets to the rim by Pick and Rolls (mostly with Dwight). Why do you think the Magic aquired Carter?
If he was younger and didn’t command so much years on his contract I would definitely want him on the raptors
The Raptors have one of the best pick and roll big men in the NBA in Chris Bosh, and one of the best pick and pop big men in Bargnani. The weapons are there (shooters too), the team just needs a guy who can operate the pick and roll.
Hedo Turkoglu can do exactly what he did in Orlando, here in Toronto.
Do you really want to give that many years (and money) to a aging forward whos skills could diminish before his contract is up. With Bargnani and Turkoglu in the front court our rebounding problems would just get worse.
Also our 2 guard (right now DeRozan) has to be a catch and shoot player (and DeRozan is definitely not that). With two ball-dominant Big Men the best SF to be paired up with them would be a Rebounding one who doesn’t need the ball in his hands to score.
Turkoglu has really benefited from the Magic system and he needs the Magic as much as they need him.
What’s up with the replies not working? Certainly impairs the flow of the discussion here.
I agree with Dave, signing Ariza for his defensive ability is not the best way to invest the Raptors resources. They have more flaws in the roster than Trevor Ariza provides, especially now that his market value’s been driven up by the title.
Turkoglu’s not the answer, he’s the product of playing with 3 other All-Stars. In truth, none of Howard/Lewis/Nelson/Turkoglu are as good as they seem without the others. It’s really a near perfect situation for all of them.
I’ll be surprised if Jamaal Tinsley ever plays in the NBA again. Anyone who thinks he’s the answer at backup PG is sorely mistaken. This guy was told to stay away from the Pacers, who obviously aren’t loaded with talent. The only way you accept his contract is as filler in another deal.
Finally, anybody STILL lamenting Vince Carter and/or Rob Babcock needs to get over it. Move on, deal with what’s here now. Joey G is the last remnant of that trade, and when he’s gone we can finally close the book on the whole ordeal.
That last paragraph of yours is the TRUTH.com!
there will always been lamenting over that trade, it has crippled this franchise for years to come, but i agree, once joey is gone, we wont be talking much about it.
Qualifying for pops….
i’m assuming that means one of our bigs is being moved?
hump?
pob?
jawaii?
i’d assume hump since he’s the only one in rotation and bc seems high on pob’s potential.
hump…no one else in the league knows jawaii exists, lol
Just keeping the options open…doesn’t mean much.
The Big Turk is absolutely not what this team needs. Basically he’s a rich man’s Carlos Delfino who lucked into the right situation for the last few years.
Marion on the other hand is exactly what this team needs, an uber-athletic defender who can flat out rebound.
I think what this team is gonna need is scoring off the bench, I’m a fan of making Kleiza a MLE for this role, guy scored close to 50 points in a game once.
Marion at 7-8 million/yr and Kleiza with the MLE, and a serviceable backup PG and I think this team competes for at least the 5-6 spot in the East, possibly higher if Bargs improves or DeRozan contributes substantially (unlikely but who knows)
Trade Bargnani
Kudos to you, Sir. Prior to his departure i would like to milk this Italian beast.
POPS!!
I think if bryan colangelo could have bought a pick he would have. The money for purchasing the picks comes outta the pocket of the owners. MLSE has always been known for high ticket prices and cheap on alot of other things. So I think the owner takes the blame on this one. Has Bryan made mistakes before ? Obviously , he’s human. But he takes risks and the saying goes , No risk no reward … or would you guys want the gms that wait for luck to hit them in the head ?
Reportedly, the price for buying late first and second round picks was sky high this year (like 3 million for pretty much any pick) whereas most other years a second round pick has a price tag of about half a million dollars. I imagine BC figures that he can forgo the pick this year and buy several next year for that amount in what would likely be a much stronger draft….
Would love to see a sign and trade Marion for Josh Smith.
Starting 5: Barganai, Bosh, Smith, DeRozen and Calderon
It would be fun to watch all the alley oops and dunks all night! We’d have one of the most athletic 2-3 combos in the league.
Unfortunately Smith has a huge trade-kicker, around 7 million i think, that makes trading for him virtually impossible, even moreso if the raps sign marion, even if it’s in order to sign and trade
You’d also need someone to throw the ‘alley’ part of an alley-oop…something Jose can’t do. If he could, the Raps could slip the pick-and-roll a couple times/game and get easy dunks (something Marion is an expert at) but it just doesn’t happen.
Smith is probably less of a SF than Marion is.
of course the reason none of this matters is if you care about the big one a max bosh isn’t winning anything.
you have to start andrea because he needs minutes to get in rhythm, and frankly he is one of the few player’s i enjoy watching on the team. he will learn defense, and we can’t give up on him due to defence and rebounding liabilities. (i go nuts when he doesn’t rotate or muster the enthusiasm to just get the fucking ball) but he is a big dude that is getting better defending 5’s (260 pounds moving somewhat swiftly). add a little post up (fake shoulder left, turn around baseline right j…money), little ‘in the lane’ hook, little 12 foot jumper starting with ur back to the basket, little drive by your man and then pull up near or in the paint…how sweet it is. projection 24-5-2. better scorer than bosh due to the versatility, however shit rebounder due to inexperience and natural grit, 2 assists because u know he is gonna drive and then do the shovel pass to someone twice a game otherwise its an awkward looking charge. im an quiet optimist, and always will be and i know i will be saying the same shit about dero as long as he is a raptor.
If grabo doesn’t go down i think our last 2 years win totals look a lot different and we are at least the same team we where when we won the division.
Garbo did go down and BC has had more than enough time to address it. He hasn’t. I can’t imagine that Pops or Jake were the only alternative available.
At least he’s not suggesting that Vince Carter somehow affected the Raps 2008-09 season outside the 4 games we played against NJ…
Following the Raps would’ve been much more fulfilling if he was always referred to as ‘grabo’ though. Maybe that should be Evans nickname from now on.
Clearly, this team will be far from average this season. If it meshes, they might even get to conference finals. But a max Bosh is what it is, nothing. Just like Phoenix was. But on the other hand, THAT be all in the Bosh decision now…
Question? not really relevant to the tread but i recall the raps dealing away our first round pick in next years draft in the jo/marion deal. Was our first round pick lottery protected?
Taken from NBA Roundtable:
2010 Draft Pick
Then we also have the issue of the 2010 draft pick, which is impossible to predict because who knows what Bryan Colangelo does this summer particularly with that cap space and Marion’s potential extension. Then the added distraction of the pick possibly being sent to Miami. That could easily add another $2mil to the books, or nothing at all if the Raptors make the playoffs.
That extra $2mil would take the Raptors up to $65mil.
If people think that Demar Derozan is going to step into the starting SG role and produce they are seriously hallucinating…
Macy,
He has zero rings to show that he makes more than he misses.
On bad pickups or trades, whomever the GM is, there is an out. Some you have to wait a bit longer to get that out, but it is there. Again, personal opinion on whether you’d want cap room this year or next. He said he wanted it next and he now doesn’t have it in the form of a JO salary coming off the books.
You are correct that the only albatross is Banks. He was a poison pill we had to take in a trade. However, over and above that, we have Humph (who was extended for no reason), Ukic who is worthless both on the court and in a trade, Pops, etc. Those parts are where GMs make or break a team. The 8-10 spot guys that come out and give you hustle minutes and produce. We haven’t had any for 3 years that can do it consistently.
As for perspective, how’s this: he came in with a #1 pick and oodles of cap room, an allstar, and an improving young PG. Wayne Embry made 2 moves prior to BC coming here that set the table for Colangelo to wave a wand and set this franchise up to be a playoff lock, not one that got in with a .500 record a year after winning a title that was ours solely by scheduling luck and a lot of hard effort.
If you can name one SOLID starter on this Raptors squad that BC has brought in on his own outside of Bargs (hell, a #1 should be a starter 3 years into the league) and rent-a-Marion (for now), I’d be happy…name 2 and I’m ecstatic. For such a marvel of present-day-NBA-management, you’d think he’d be able to swing something in 3 years that nets at least 2 starters (or near starters) in the FA market or via trade.
Look, we’ll agree to disagree, but I will say this: come opening night, we should see a team on that floor that is dramatically different than opening night last season. If we don’t, just what exactly are we waiting for?
Didn’t ESPN have him rated as the best GM in the league recently? As polled by fellow execs and such?
Listen, you can knock some of his moves all you want — nobody is perfect. And maybe ESPN isn’t the be all end all.
But if there is any sort of argument about whether he is a BAD GM, I think that’s ridiculous. It’s possible to overrate average or mildly above average. It’s tough for somebody who is horrible to be perceived as consistently excellent.
By that logic alone, people should understand we have at least a GM running our team who other teams wish was running theirs. He has not done a horrible job. To say so is selective memory, at best.
We can’t always have THE BEST MOTHERFUCKER ON THE PLANET.
BC isn’t always going to be stealing players away every week for magic beans. Bosh can’t always be expected to be a dominant player who goes 1v5 and carries a weak team to victory game every game.
Be patient, and rationale with your standards is all I’m saying.
Simon,
Which is the precise reason I refer to Bryan Colangelo as an “average GM” in the NBA. He is not a poor GM. He is not a great GM. His teams in Toronto, thus far …
2006 7-19/.269, failed to qualify for playoffs
2006-2007 47-35/.573, 1st Place/Atlantic, 1st Round loss to NJ [#6]
2007-2008 41-41/.500, 2nd Place/Atlantic, 1st Round loss to Orl [#3]
2008-2009 33-49/.402, failed to qualify for playoffs
Including Year 1: 128-144/.471
Excluding Year 1: 121-125/.492
What is astounding, however … is the number of Raptors fans who FAIL to acknowledge what the actual situation is with this franchise [and has been for a long time, i.e. at least, since MLSE assumed full control of the team].
Those who say that Bryan Colangelo is a Bad GM … are Wrong.
Those who say that Bryan Colangelo is a Terrific GM … are Wrong.
Those who say that Bryan Colangelo is an Average GM … are Right.
Those who said, in advance, that Bryan Colangelo would be an Average GM, in Toronto, before he started with the team, or early-on during his tenure with the Raptors have actually been PROVEN Right … with the passage of time.
Those few individuals were well ahead of everyone else when it came to understanding and appraising Bryan Colangelo’s work for the Raptors, in comparison with the vast majority of others who said and thought, at the time, that his arrival would, in fact, usher in a new era of on-court succeess with this franchise.
The fact is … where the franchise stands today is not really that much further ahead of where it was the day he took over February 28, 2006. The Raptors are a 13th place team in a 15-team conference and a long, long way from challenging for an Eastern Conference Championship, never mind actually Winning a NBA Title.
Assessing Bryan Colangelo’s work, thus far, has nothing to do with a “personal bias”, if the description is one of being “average”.
The Raptors, and MLSE in general, are one of the richest organizations in all of professional sports. They are VERY GOOD at making money … and VERY AVERAGE when it comes to Winning Games … and VERY POOR when it comes to Winning League Championships.
Which is exactly why a Top Notch GM would not have allowed the situation with Wince Carter to deteriorate to the extent that it eventually did [in Toronto] and then would NOT have moved him when Rob Babcock made that poor decision.
[Babcock should not have been hired in the first place. Mitchell should not have been hired in the first place. Carter should never have been traded by the Raptors, regardless how much he was being booed by a disgruntled fanbase in Toronto, which really isn't all that sophisticated about the game of basketball in the first place, e.g. see the "love" for hard-working players like JYD, Oakley, Bonner, Pops & Evans but the "disdain" for talented cats like Bosh, Carter, McGrady and Olajuwon ... each of whom was perceived to have under-achieved in Toronto.]
Whoever keeps hiring the GMs to run this team does not know what he is doing when it comes to putting an organization together that is actually capable of winning the NBA championship down-the-road.
Vince Carter should still be a player for the Toronto Raptors today.
I’m a big time fan of Carter but the Raptors have evolved into a totally different franchise since Colangelo has taken over. Yes he has made some bad moves, but who hasn’t? I recall Joe Dumars being considered the biggest genius in basketball when he assembled the Pistons — and then he drafted Darko and later traded Billups for Iverson.
Good GM’s dont just make splashes because anyone and everyone in the NBA can make one or two good moves. The Good Gm’s know how to REPAIR the damage and recover while still being respectable.
The Raptors had a disappointing campaign last year, and probably even the year before– BC made some gambles and he failed, but can we give this guy a chance to fix it before writing him off? He knows how to handle players and agents and how to satisfy them; Him and his father transformed the PHX Suns into a desirable franchise to play for so I’m sure he knows a thing or two about satisfying multi-million dollar athletes.
It should also be noted that the culture of the team has transformed sicne he’s been here. We are no longer a laughing stock with explosive personalities and thigns are heading in the right direction initially.
Sure nothing is proven yet but let’s at LEAST wait until training camp or pre-season before writing off the team and its management. A championship would be great but clearly it’s hard when Lebron, Wade, Dwight are all stepping it up; the Raptors just have to position themselves to contend for EC finals, and at that point anything is possible. Just ask Orlando!
I should be the gm . I would perform fellatio on them regularly. Would BC?….I AM SUPERIOR. Kudos to me, Sir.
citing the fact that Toronto fans loved hardworking players is not a sound argument for their lack of “sophistication”, in fact it works against your argument. its easy to see that players like Vince and Bosh have talent, but it takes a more sophisticated basketball fan to see the intangibles and heart that players like JYD and Oakley bring to the game.
no longer a laughing stock…things are heading in the right direction (under Colangelo)…
Year 1: 47 wins
Year 2: 41 wins
Year 3: 33 wins by the best Raptors team ever assembled by BC
If year 3 was marred with injuries and upheaval, I’d cut some slack. It wasn’t. Colangelo failed this franchise all of his own accord. He had the opportunity to strike first at his major player leaving to go elsewhere by surrounding him with better pieces. He didn’t.
This is his fourth year. The trend you see above should have been reversed and we should now be jockeying for home court/division banner territory. Instead we are treading water and we have a fanbase hoping for a 12-win turnaround season so we can have some semblance of respectability.
‘If year 3 was marred with injuries and upheaval, I’d cut some slack. It wasn’t.’
really? no injuries (JO, jose?)? no upheaval (coaching change)?
look, i may seem like an apologist (though i don’t think i am), but it’s not as though they went through the season unscathed…i think what you may be getting at is that all teams go through injuries, but most have a contingency plan (or 8) that will allow them to remain competitive in the face of adversity. BC loaded up the roster on the front-end (theoretically), leaving little-to-nothing backing up key spots, and for that, he deserves all the blame in the world. ditto for trading for a guy with known injury issues. did they have injuries? sure. is it a valid excuse – no.
I’d hate to be the numero uno BC fanboy because I’m not– but in his defense, let’s look at PHX’s record with him running the show entirely.
2001-02: 36-46
2002-03: 44-38
2003-04: 29-53
2004-05: 62-20
If you look at the dip from the 02-03 season and the 03-04 season, it was because of Colangelo’s gamble with Stephan Marbury– a gamble VERY similar to the one he made with JO.
I’m not saying we’re going to win 62 games, but I don’t expect us to have another disappointing campaign.
Also, are championship aspirations even realistic? Can we seriously contend against Orlando or Cleveland even if we flip the assets we currently have? No…
What we can do though is assemble an efficient team that sets itself up for a position to make the EC finals and then try to make a splash there. That was the philosophy of the Suns when the Spurs/Mavs were reigning supreme, except with the Suns, they became SO good that they turned into serious contenders.
My point is that BC has made bad moves just like other GM’s, so let’s see if he can fix them now… the good moves just never panned out (Tj Ford, Jorge Garbajosa, John Salmons)– let’s wait and see what he has envisioned for this team moving forward now that he realizes our glaring weaknesses. That’s all im sayinggggggg
Your analysis is missing:
Year 0: 27 wins
The guy gets no credit for bringing the team its first ever division title & home court advantage? Bringing in 9 new players, many of whom made a difference?
Some of his moves worked, some didn’t. Thus is the life of an NBA GM. What makes BC a good GM, however, is the fact that he left himself some out clauses with most of his moves. He traded for JO, whose huge salary comes off in 2010 (big FA year, for those who are unaware). Traded JO for Marion, which gives him flexibility this year. He hasn’t one time in 3 years painted himself into a corner with a bad contract acquired/given out. You gotta roll the dice if you hope to win big. He’s rolled and lost, but still has chips to play with. I consider that the makeup of a good GM.
Rather than attempt to make the playoffs next season, wouldn’t it be preferable to start the rebuilding process by trading off Bosh who is going to leave anyway .. to team up with his buddy LeBron in NY according to all the bball pundits.
Rebuilding the Raptors with young ballers with potential upside, and giving them a couple of seasons to jell and peak when the current league leaders are falling apart is the way to go now.
Trying to build a ‘playoff’ team is futile considering the talent on all the other teams.
I also used the word “marred”. I’d say you’d be hard pressed to find someone who would say that this past season was injury-plagued. If anything, that spurt at the end of the season made up for any games lost due to any major pieces being out, so what about the remainder of the season?
Yertu, you know I’ve made my argument for ages about last season being a failure due to ANY semblance of depth, just as you point out. It’s the main reason I thought they’d be lucky to hit 30-35 wins while everybody else had them fighting for home court…which is happening again and on what basis? Reggie Evans and DeRozan?? Really?
I’m no idiot. I think BC has plans and some will be rebuffed. I will wait until mid-August once the dust settles and see what he has concocted. I still am a firm believer that he has next to no talent at massaging the cap. That is just a feeling and I have nothing firm to back that up, but I sure as hell would feel better if we had a Grunwald-type mind on Colangelo’s staff.
I want to see victories as much as everybody else on this site. BC needs to turn the car around and make valiant attempts at getting this team back to .500. No time like the present.
When examining closely what happened with the Phoenix Suns during the tenure of Bryan Colangelo:
1. Understand that his father was the principal owner of the franchise.
2. Remove Steve Nash from the Phoenix Suns line-up and you’ve got precious little to show for the entire SSOL era.
3. There was ZERO basketball smarts on the Phoenix Suns’ end involved with Steve Nash’s return to Phoenix.
Mark Cuban decided not to pay Steve Nash an exorbitant amount of money to re-sign with the Mavericks thinking that no one else would either.
Steve Nash choose to return home to the Phoenix area, where his family had continued to reside while he was playing for the Mavs.
Bryan Colangelo said, “Thank you very much, Steve, here’s the money Mark Cuban wouldn’t pay you.”
Without Steve Nash at the Point for Dallas … all the Mavericks did was reach the NBA FINALS for the only time in their franchise history, under the direction of Avery Johnson with Devin Harris and Jason Terry as their main PGs.
3. There was considerable basketball smarts involved with the hiring of Mike D’Antoni to coach the Phoenix Suns. Bryan Colangelo deserves credit for that move. Were there other coaching moves that did not work out so well? Yes, there were.
4. There was considerable basketball smarts involved with the drafting of both Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire. Bryan Colangelo deserves credit for those two moves. Were there others that did not work out so well? Yes, there were.
5. A lot of basketball smarts were involved in making the decision to focus the Suns’ entire system of play on the unique talents of the two best players on their roster, i.e. Steve Nash & Amare Stoudemire, running the P & R, almost exclusively, from a base 4/out/1 in offensive alignment, with 3 additional shooters on the floor beside Steve Nash. Mike D’Antoni deserves a lot of credit for making that specific decision.
In review, then:
* Jerry Colangelo is “one of the best owners in the history of NA Pro Sport” who teams have never won a league championship.
* Steve Nash is a great player, especially, on the Offensive end of the floor. He is a 2-time League MVP who has yet to win a league championship.
* Mike D’Antoni is very good NBA head coach who has yet to win a league championship.
* Bryan Colangelo is an average GM in the NBA who has yet to assemble a team that has even reached the NBA Finals.
and the winner is….Khandor!
couldn’t agree more brother.
Be all that as it may, what has Kerr done to that particular franchise since the Colangelo era?
Yeah… I think Phoenix fans would agree that Bryan Colangelo ain’t all that bad.
Let’s not forget:
Acquired Joe Johnson for Tony Delk (and Rodney Rogers?)
Signed a pre-obese Quentin Richardson, who thrived in PHX.
Signed Raja Bell to a below-market deal.
Sign-and-trade Johnson (who was going to leave anyways) to ATL for Diaw & 2 first rounders.
Those are some excellent moves.
I don’t get why there are ‘ZERO’ smarts involved in signing Nash. Cuban wouldn’t give Nash that kind of money (Nash gave Cuban the ability to match, he didn’t thinking it was overpaying him), and the guy wins 2 MVPs. BC thought he was worth it, Cuban didn’t. I think BC was correct in that regard.
hey Altraps,
there’s some good stuff here, but I think just be resigning Marion and drafting DeRozan, the Raps have solidfied the wing spots by adding:
-athletic guys
-who dont need plays called for them to score
-with some serious hops
-who can defend multiple positions
-who rebound really well
-who have good length and should disrupt the passing lanes
-who have good foot speed and should be able to keep their men in fornt of them (and take some pressure off of the bigs)
and that, I think adresses a big part of last years’ issues. Yes, injuries hurt us, and yes, we sure could have used a back up pg (Im hoping for a guy like Bobby Jackson who is a UFA)but it was the total LACK of production from the 2-3 all year that killed us. If you look back at the last 15 games of the year, when the Raps were getting some decent production from the 3, they werent actually half-bad. Add a legit 2 and this team appears ready to make some real improvements.
every GM in the league has “chips”. We had chips when we sucked and Grunwald took the heat at the Gardens and turned the team into a squad that has gone further than any Raptors team under BC.
When he traded for JO, he cited flexibility next offseason as a reason because it was important to have that. Now it’s this season via Marion. He needs to produce from behind his desk for the team to produce on the floor. Supporters are still waiting.
If you seriously expect every personnel move he makes to be a home run, then your standards are a little high. Obviously he’s missed on a few. His track record clearly signifies that he makes more than he misses. And on the ones he has missed, he’s left himself an out. That’s wise. The only albatross on the roster is Banks, which has been there for 1/2 a season. He’s kept the team flexible to sign guys like Von Wafer and Royal Ivey at a combined $7M/season. Wait, those moves would get him fired immediately.
The only thing I can suggest to you is to get some perspective. The team has made the playoffs 2/3 years he’s been here, after not making them since 2002. BC has a history of making good personnel decisions.
Were you ‘ still waiting’ for his good moves in the ‘07 playoffs? Nope, because he’d made many of them to get the Raps a division title.
In fairness to BC, at that point I think few of us had little thought that Bosh would leave in 2010. I think BC was aiming to keep cap space for that year so Bosh would have his money and we may be able to grab another star. Then Bosh gave most of us the impression he’s leaning toward leaving rather than staying…. having JO (and more improtantly his cap space in 2010) may have become moot.
I’ve seen him play. He is a bit more skilled than Ostertag, but I still think he will be extremely lucky to have even half as long a career as the Tag
Precisely, as we would rather win the big one.
Rod,
In a hockey town which has had a serious love affair with a series of pluggers over the years … e.g. Darcy Tucker, Tie Domi, Wendel Clark, Tiger Williams, etc. … there is actually very little sophistication involved in being able to see accurately the contributions made by a high-energy role-player who would fit right in with an effective 3rd or 4th line on a team in the NHL, that requires 25 players to succeed in a major way.
Understanding accurately, however, the “mercurial behaviour patterns” and “individual wants” of a “tempermental superstar” with special ability in a game like basketball … which requires 8-15 higly skilled players working in harmony with one another and a head coach [plus staff] … is a different beast entirely.
Prima Donna’s DO NOT fly in the game of elite level hockey. Period.
Prima Donna’s are almost “par for the course” in the game of elite level basketball.
Discard them at your peril … if your goal is Winning the Title.
Instead of trying to get rid of them … which is a mistake the Raptors made with a cat like Chauncey Billups in his younger days … What matters most is how your organization is able to:
1. Identify them properly, in the first place.
2. Deal with properly, in the long run.
3. Develop their talent.
4. Minimize their weaknesses while emphasizing their strengths.
5. Surround them with the RIGHT mix of coaches and teammates.
If I show you two players … one, Reggie Evans; the other, Derrick Brown. IMO, those who value and want Reggie Evans [a plugger] OVER Derrick Brown [a talent] simply do not understand how the game actually works in the NBA. Nor do those who prefer a player like Andrea Bargnani [a talent] when compared to David Lee [a plugger].
As a simple example:
The Great Portland Trail Blazers team of 1996-1997 does not win the NBA championship without the talent, effort and abilities of Maurice Lucas [a plugger] … But, without cultivating a space for a player like Bill Walton [a talent and a real "character"], that particular NBA franchise would still be searching for its first League Championship today.
Real sophistication is being able to see clearly and accurately the value and the role of both pluggers AND talents, in the NBA … amongst a host of other things, as well.
You think Raps supporters are the only NBA fans who appreciate the hard-working guys? That’s ridiculous. JYD was a fan favourite everywhere he played.
Also, to say unequivocally that Reggie Evans is less valuable than Derrick Brown (who has never played an NBA minute) is equally ridiculous. As you said, it depends on all the players working in harmony. You can’t make isolated statements like that.
Macy,
A statement/observation which might seem to you as being “ridiculous” today … just might turn out to be a lot more accurate than you think, 4 years [and 328 games] from now.
If it does, then, perhaps you would do well to consider what that individual tells you next time vs what others tell you about something after-the-fact, that conforms with conventional thinking.
Conventional thinking alone does/will not win your team the NBA Championship. Neither will outlandish thinking, that makes no sense and is not rooted in a proper understanding of the fundamentals of the game.
IMO:
1. Maurice Lucas was a better player than Reggie Evans will ever be.
2. IF Derrick Brown CAN play in the NBA, at his position AND with his skill set … he is going to be a more effective player over the course of his career than Reggie Evans, who I happen to like a great deal, as a role-playing, rebounding, plugger … who saw his PT reduced dramatically last year with an outfit like the Philadelphia 76ers, when they decided to go with a cat like Thaddeus Young OVER him at the #4/PF position.
3. Bill Walton was a tremendous talent who marched to the beat of his own drum on a number of occasions … but, who was also taught how to march in-step with the rest of his teammates by a coach for whom he had the ultimate respect.
It’s a people business.
If the Lakers [Mitch Kupchak] had simply and quickly acquiesced to Kobe Bryant’s trade demand two summers ago … they would not be the reigning NBA Champions today.
How you handle the people who you employ is just as important as who those people are, in the first place.
Macy save yourself now while you still have your sanity… he will break it!
Hardcore Raps,
It seems as though you are someone who has difficulty giving credit where and when credit is due. Instead of trying to “close” the mind of someone else to an idea which is different from your own, perhaps, you too could benefit from reading and listening to a unique perspective on your favourite NBA team.
There are very good reasons why the Raptors have made precious little headway up the EC standings since they first came into existence, 14 seasons ago.
They keep making the same sort of mistakes, over and over again. Yet, MLSE has absolutely no intention of divesting itself of either the Maple Leafs or the Raptors, as they rake in plenty of profit for their owners … while providing a relatively entertaining product for their rabid and loyal fanbase.
If what’s working for you … is, in fact, working well for you … then, why on earth would you seek to make a change in the current method of operation?
On the other hand, if what’s working for you … is, in fact, not working well for you … then why on earth would you seek to stifle change in the current method of operation?
Personally, I don’t like the Raptors finishing in 13th place in the EC, and only advancing past the 1st Round of the playoffs 1 time in their 14-year history.