Logical points with rational arguments regarding the team were made, although they were excessive in length.

so why get rid of him 4 similar or less value?

hes top 15 (at least) IN THE NBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your gunna need a player like that to win and trading him won’t give you one of those players so why do it?

look what happened with carter…if we didnt trade him wed have two all-stars on the team

if we dont trade bosh I believe we will have 2 maybe 3 all-stars soon—Bosh Bargnani + Jose

mybe 4!!!= the draft or Marion

[ "The Raptors had a horrible season finishing third from the bottom in the East. Anthony Parker, Shawn Marion, and Jake Voskhul are all free agents. That is 2 starters and a top bench player. ......." ]

So much for perspectives.

IMO …

* Your observation about Wince Carter and Rob Babcock is 100% accurate.

* Kupchak did the Right Thing and has been handsomely rewarded for it. Not everybody has the courage and the acumen to do what Mitch has done with the Lakers since he’s been the man in-charge. Kudos to him!

* The Gasol trade was NOT luck. It came about because Mitch Kupchak actually knows what he’s doing as Top Notch GM in this league. There were other moves that the Lakers could have fallen into the trap of making. They did not, however … and, as they say, the rest is now history.

“Luck is the residue of opportunity and design.” – Branch Rickey

The reason there is no 2nd, and/or 3rd, and/or 4th genuine “star” on the Raptors roster is because of the relatively “poor” personnel moves made by the people responsible for running this franchise over the last several seasons, including the most recent 4.

Chris Bosh is more than good enough to be a central/key/however-you-wish-to-word-it player on a championship NBA team … in a similar way to how Kevin Garnett was once in Minnesota and is now today with the Celtics … if he has the right pieces to the puzzle to go along with him.

Whether he’s a Max. Contract Player or not is irrelevant.

It’s the Quality of the 12-15 players on a roster that matter the most [in addition to a High End head coach] … not how much money a team’s best player makes, as long as he is truly one of the best players in the entire league which Chris Bosh clearly is.

A good marketer/financial profiteer knows that by spending $130.0 M on a single player … but scrimping on the remainder of the roster … he can still turn a tidy profit every year while convincing his fanbase that he is really trying his best to win. It’s just bad luck that does him in … year after year after year, etc..

A championship calibre pro sport manager, on the other hand, knows that it is impossible to build a team capable of winning the league title without having Quality Depth throughout the roster, plus a High End head coach, and that if he can succeed in winning the Larry O’Brien Trophy the by-product will be more than good enough to keep his owner happy and his coffers full.

Is there anyone here who doubts that the Lakers and the Celtics and the Spurs … and even the Pistons [though they traded Billups this season, it was to ensure that they could re-build while remaining a playoff team and gearing up for another run at the top in a changing financial landscape] … and the Cavaliers and the Magic and the Blazers and the Mavericks, etc., are in the game to win the NBA championship?

I don’t think so.

By contrast … are there any here who doubt MLSE’s commitment to play alongside the Big Boyz in this league, in full pursuit of the Larry O’Brien Trophy?

I think there are.

Then, again, I could always be wrong.

Why use Lebron & Wade as comparisons in the first place? Why not use a player like Paul Pierce? Or, Ray Allen? Or, Kevin Garnett? Or, the Boston Celtics instead of the Cavs & Heat? Is there a clear pecking order on that team which was good enough to win the NBA title, last season, as one of the best outfits in league history?

Is Garnett a “Max. Contract Player”?
Is Garnett a “clutch scorer”?
Is Paul Pierce the heart & soul of their team? … as their “best player”, who refused to trade when offers came their way and their team was struggling at the bottom of the EC?
Is Ray Allen not an example of the type of “tier two” player [i.e. behind Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade, Duncan & Garnett] that ALL great-to-good players in the history of the NBA have needed to be surrounded by in order to even have a legit chance at ever winning a championship?

This whole business of Chris Bosh not being an Alpha Dog, and it somehow effecting the W-L/Playoff capabilities of the Raptors … in their current form … is a complete red-herring.

Who was the Alpha Dog on the championship Seattle Supersonic team of the 1970’s? Or, the Alpha Dog on the Dave Cowens’ led Celtics team during the same era? Or, the Washington Bullets, lead by Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes, Phil Chenier and Bobby Dandridge?

I’m sorry … but, the history of this great game does happen to go back beyond just the Michael Jordan era.

Even in the modern game … the simple fact is that someone like Tim Duncan actually FAILS to qualify as an Alpha Dog, by definition … yet the Spurs have been the Gold Standard franchise in this league for the past 10 years. [i.e. no one should try and assert that there's a gigantic difference between someone who is playing on a Max. Contract vs someone who is also a terrific player and then AFTER winning a championship already is then prepared to play on a slightly lower salary scale in order to better his team's chances of keeping that same Top Roster together for an additional period of years, e.g. comparing a $23.0 M/yr player to a $21.0 M/yr player]

The fact is … an Alpha Dog like Kobe Bryant does NOT any championship at all without, not just a player like Pau Gasol but also, top notch players like Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher, Andrew Bynum, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, and Luke Walton on his team; which applies applies equally well to someone like Dwyane Wade, or Shaquille O’Neal, or Hakeem Olajuwon, or Michael Jordan, or Isiah Thomas, or Magic Johnson, or Larry Bird, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or Bill Walton, or Julius Erving, or Willis Reed, or Wilt Chamberlain, or Oscar Robertson, or Bill Russell, or George Mikan, etc.

If a team is going to be taken seriously by the other outfits across the league and the best players from across the league it needs to be able to re-sign its own unrestricted free agents. If it cannot do that, it has no hope of ever winning the championship in the NBA.

Whether Chris Bosh qualifies as being good enough for a Max. Contract is a GIGANTIC red-herring in this entire situation.

This fact does not invalidate the original observation made.

i.e. because many of the teams that have managed to re-sign their own “best players” who are eligible to become unrestricted free agents also failed to win the championship does NOT mean that re-signing one’s own “best player” in that type of situation is less than a necessity if a team actually does want to be considered as a legitimate contender for a league championship some day in the future, and that it is somehow not a required element for the teams in this league that actually do win the championship.

If Babcock had dealt with VC the way Kupchak dealt with Kobe, we might be singing a slightly different tune as Raptor fans. Of course, Babcock would still have had to luck out with the equivalent to the Gasol trade.

the point which has been made ad nauseum on this forum is not, for the most part, whether bosh is a ‘good’ player – aside from a few fanaticals, most here recognize that he is a special players in this league. what many have an issue with is whether he’s worth max money. that’s it. it’s somewhat irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things, since it seems apparent he’s going to get it, either from the raps, or someone else via sign & trade (i can’t see any situation in which he simply signs with another team, UNLESS it’s with miami; it’s the only situation that makes sense from a team & financial standpoint (no state tax).

all that being said, i don’t think anyone assumes that because he’ll be earning the same as wade & lebron that he’s on the same level as those two…but why is that a concern? what matters is whether bosh is as valuable to the raps (or to whatever team he’s with while earning that contract) as wade/lebron are to their teams. if so, then it’s a non-issue. if, however, the raps would need another max (or near max) type player to whom bosh can complement, then does that not put the raps at a financial disadvantage vis a vis the ability to build quality depth?

let’s say lebron & wade both re-sign with the cavs/heat, and bosh does the same (stays with the raps); with both lebron/wade, there would be a clear pecking order, with both assuming alpha dog roles & the team being built around them, with secondary/supporting players (i.e. non-max contract types). with the raps, is bosh ‘THAT’ guy? or do they need a secondary ‘alpha?’ i don’t see another one on the roster currently, so does that mean they go out & (over)pay a FA to play that role? wouldn’t that then mean that they’d have TWO max guys, both of whom are likely not worth it (if the raps track record is any indication, they seem to be able to attract mid-tier FA’s, and only when they overpay them as if they were top-tier guys).

of course, competent management should be able to do any of these things. unfortunately, MLSE is only concerned with making money, which is made obvious by the fact that they seem committed to blowing $130M on a guy who’s *probably* only worth 80% of that. clearly, they are cheap motherfuckers.

Although, in his same post he said he felt sorry for Vince Carter because, and I paraphrase, the team traded a washed up Kidd for an All-Star in Harris and this has disappointed Vince, who has always been ‘yurning’ (sic) for a championship. The NBA is not is strong suit.

This perception, on its own, is a crucial error in judgment, IMO.

Earlier, someone else put forward the example of the Detroit Pistons trading their “best player”, Jerry Stackhouse, in exchange for Rip Hamilton … and, then, benefitting through this move down-the-road, to the tune of an eventual championship. Therefore, moving Bosh, at this time, is seen in a similar light.

This is a poor example, however, as the reason Jerry Stackhouse was moved to Washington had nothing to do with his contract status at the time and a perception that he was a false “Max. Contract Player” who was going to leave the Pistons “holding nothing but the bag” by opting out of his employment contract and signing a deal with another, more attractive-looking team, as an unrestricted free agent.

To find a parallel situation, that at least has some degree of validity to it, what someone would need to do is look for a situation which approximates better the circumstances which the Raptors now find themselves in with Chris Bosh.

If you, or anyone else, can find a similar situation in the annals of the NBA, where a team’s acknowledged “best player” was traded away “out of fear” that he “might” not be willing to sign a Max. Contract Extension when his existing contract expires AND that team then benefitted down-the-road through the assets acquired, in return, to the tune of actually winning the League Championship I, personally, would tip my hat to you.

Short of that, however, I will continue to assert the following:

1. The best teams in the NBA are the ones capable of doing what’s necessary to re-sign their own “best players” when their existing contracts expire … or, in some cases, prior to that … as part of their on-going commitment to produce a League Cahmpionship team, built over the course of a number of years.

2. On the other hand, the teams in the NBA which are incapable of doing what’s necessary to re-sign their own “best players” when their existing contracts expire … whether to Max. Contracts or something less-than that … are doomed to perennial “treadmill status”, i.e. in the middle-of-the-pack, or terminally “sleeping with the fishes” … and will never, ever win a Champiosnhip in this League … despite the efforts of their marketing department to convince you [their loyal fans] otherwise.

I realize the potential to be wrong in stating this but at the moment I think Bargnani has a better (albeit very slim) chance at being a true cornerstone player than Bosh, even though Bosh is a significantly better player than Bargs at the moment. In the next year or two Colangelo will find out what kind of player Bargs will turn into. There’s a chance he becomes a real game-changer in my opinion – a player who is almost unstoppable on the offensive end and who plays good enough defence to help the team with the right support around him. If that happens trading Bosh, or even just using the money he demands on other players, might be the “championship” move. There’s also a chance Bargs stays what he is now, a decent offensive player whose lack of rebounding and defence probably hurts his team more than his offence helps.