"In respect to the situation for him, there will be a handful of teams next year – I’m guessing between five and ten – which will have maximum allowable free agent money, which means Chris is subject to walk to one of those deals. But, I have to reiterate the point that keeps being overlooked – we’re the only team that can offer him a full six years versus five years, 10.5% increases versus 8% increases … Basically equates to a $30 million dollar difference. So, even if he wants to leave, he’s still better served, and we’re better served if he works a sign-and-trade with us where we can get some sort of an asset back from the team that he’s going to. And, I think that’s probably the thing that we’ll both push for because he’ll benefit from it and we’ll benefit from it, and that’s why it’s probably not time to panic now and make a bad deal."
Toronto Raptors Draft Preview
Another option could be Toronto, who would potentially be interested in a sign and trade for star forward Chris Bosh. Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo is looking to extend Bosh, but the 2010 free agent to be is expected to decline any offer.
That in mind, the Raptors’ best option would be to trade Bosh and get maximum value in return. Here is a projected trade that could work out for both sides:
Toronto Receives
- F Luol Deng
- C Jerome James
- 16th overall pick
- 26th overall pick
Chicago Receives
- F Chris Bosh
- 9th overall pick
This is all purely speculation, but it could work out for both sides. The Raptors would get maximum value in return for their soon to be free agent forward, and the Bulls could add the low post scoring they have lacked for quite some time now.
That means the right offer should be able to pry Bosh away. Can the Bulls put together such an offer? Who knows. Tyrus Thomas, two draft picks, and expiring deals for Bosh seems like about as much as the Bulls would give up.
Would Bosh sign an extension as part of a trade? Would the Bulls do a trade if he wouldn’t? Do you even really want Chris Bosh on a deal that will average 20 million per year? While he clearly upgrades the team, it’s highly likely to be similar to paying Jermaine O’Neal all that money. Maybe you do it because he makes you better than anything else you can do, but he’s still not worth the money.
OK the Toronto Raptors don’t know what they want and its similar to a celebrity hook-up. One minute the Raptors say they have “no intention” of trading Chris Bosh for roughly a month and a half. Now, they are saying they would like to sign Bosh and then trade him. Make up your mind! It’s really not that hard to figure out because its like this: Toronto, you either WANT him or you DO NOT want him. The answer to the question is a yes or no type of deal.
The Raptors are looking for some sort of compensation for their efforts of trading Bosh to one of many teams up on the list. Looks like Chris Bosh would love to get with a contending team but he isn’t about to kick and scream to let his current organization know he wants out. In my opinion, he should at least be more aggressive and be up front about it. If he does that, hopefully he will land with a solid championship caliber team this next season.
You extended an offer to Carlos Delfino who played in Russia last season. Is he coming back and why did he leave the Raptors in the first place?
“He basically got 2.85 million net Euros, at the time, that was the equivalent of about $8.5 – $9 million US deal, so, you can see where there’s a discrepancy in dollars of about $5 million US gross and it was too much for him to walk away from. Now, he’s been there a year, he’s played under those circumstances, and he’s said, ‘You know what? I wanna be back in the NBA.’ He’s gonna leave a lot of money on the table… I’ve been kinda putting him on my roster depth charts with semi-removable ink. He’s a guy that I think we can get the deal done if we want to get it done.”
Again, to be blunt, expertise about how player moves work in the NBA is not our forte. The best that can be offered is that it’s was already time to brace for BWOB (Basketball Without Bosh) and try to figure out what can be gleaned from the situation. Jay Triano, Colangelo and Maurizio Gherardini would like to play an up-tempo style, but they need personnel who can make it work. There should be no fear about Bosh leaving … there is plenty out there.
29 Raps
In BC’s choices,where is Henderson ?
The NBA.com Raptors draft preview is the laziest thing I’ve ever seen. Producer #1 “okay so we’ll get Fratello to ramble on about Bosh, Marion and nothing in particular.” Producer #2 “sounds fine, and then lets feature Flynn and Johnson because we haven’t touched on them in the other segments”, intern- “should we try to discuss these picks in terms of Raptor needs and/or future direction?” P#1 “no, no, we have to do one of these for every team, the video of Johnson talking about being a chargers fan, because he is from San Diego is all we need.”
There’s a good reason I wrote a long time ago that the Toronto Raptors might become a full-fledged treadmill team in the middle of the pack in the NBA.
Looking back on the last 4 seasons it becomes much easier now to see what I was saying back then, prior to this charade kicking off:
2005-2006 Raptors Transactions
2006-2007 Raptors Transactions
2007-2008 Raptors Transactions
2008-2009 Raptors Transactions
If you then add in an upcoming trade re: Chris Bosh, as per each of the articles in this “Morning’s Coffee – June 20″ … it becomes crystal clear to see that MLSE has no intentions of ever doing what’s necessary to construct a Raptors team that is capable of winning the League Championship, sometime down-the-road.
Sad to see this type of chicanery, once again, from this “profiteering outfit” … aka, MLSE.
It’s not about WINNING here … it’s about “cha-ching” [i.e. $$$$].
If they hold onto Bosh MLSE will be signalling they only care about marketing. If they let their GM do the far riskier thing and trade him, it’s a signal the team cares about winning.
Teams that can’t and won’t do what’s necessary to sign their own big-ticket UFA in this league do not EVER win the championship.
They are also the teams that excel at marketing their existing product to their fanbase in a way that resembles THIS brand of consumer loyalty.
Caring about winning means keeping your team’s best players NOT trading them away under the guise of maintaining franchise “viability” moving forward … which is a sham that only unsophisticated fans fall for, seemingly, repeatedly.
Caveat Emptor
Keeping your team’s best player who had the “face of the franchise” tag thrust upon him when the team’s actual best player high-tailed it out of town is a marketing strategy. Suffice to say that while I think Bosh is a very good player I don’t think he is one of those too-good-to-lose players. Some agree with me, you don’t. What I am trying to say though is that trading Bosh is a championship move. If you don’t believe he can be a cornerstone of the franchise, like Carter could have been if his head and heart had been better, then move him for value and keep looking for a genuine cornerstone. Keeping Bosh might put bums in seats but it probably won’t result in a long playoff run given the constraints the Raptors face with him on the team – i.e. he’ll get you to the playoffs but not far without a real #1 player alongside him and he thereby limits your drafting opportunities and turns the Raptors into a treadmill team.
I realize the potential to be wrong in stating this but at the moment I think Bargnani has a better (albeit very slim) chance at being a true cornerstone player than Bosh, even though Bosh is a significantly better player than Bargs at the moment. In the next year or two Colangelo will find out what kind of player Bargs will turn into. There’s a chance he becomes a real game-changer in my opinion – a player who is almost unstoppable on the offensive end and who plays good enough defence to help the team with the right support around him. If that happens trading Bosh, or even just using the money he demands on other players, might be the “championship” move. There’s also a chance Bargs stays what he is now, a decent offensive player whose lack of rebounding and defence probably hurts his team more than his offence helps.
How “good” Chris Bosh actually is, or not, shouldn’t be [and is not] the issue here … although many in Raptorville think that it is.
This perception, on its own, is a crucial error in judgment, IMO.
Earlier, someone else put forward the example of the Detroit Pistons trading their “best player”, Jerry Stackhouse, in exchange for Rip Hamilton … and, then, benefitting through this move down-the-road, to the tune of an eventual championship. Therefore, moving Bosh, at this time, is seen in a similar light.
This is a poor example, however, as the reason Jerry Stackhouse was moved to Washington had nothing to do with his contract status at the time and a perception that he was a false “Max. Contract Player” who was going to leave the Pistons “holding nothing but the bag” by opting out of his employment contract and signing a deal with another, more attractive-looking team, as an unrestricted free agent.
To find a parallel situation, that at least has some degree of validity to it, what someone would need to do is look for a situation which approximates better the circumstances which the Raptors now find themselves in with Chris Bosh.
If you, or anyone else, can find a similar situation in the annals of the NBA, where a team’s acknowledged “best player” was traded away “out of fear” that he “might” not be willing to sign a Max. Contract Extension when his existing contract expires AND that team then benefitted down-the-road through the assets acquired, in return, to the tune of actually winning the League Championship I, personally, would tip my hat to you.
Short of that, however, I will continue to assert the following:
1. The best teams in the NBA are the ones capable of doing what’s necessary to re-sign their own “best players” when their existing contracts expire … or, in some cases, prior to that … as part of their on-going commitment to produce a League Cahmpionship team, built over the course of a number of years.
2. On the other hand, the teams in the NBA which are incapable of doing what’s necessary to re-sign their own “best players” when their existing contracts expire … whether to Max. Contracts or something less-than that … are doomed to perennial “treadmill status”, i.e. in the middle-of-the-pack, or terminally “sleeping with the fishes” … and will never, ever win a Champiosnhip in this League … despite the efforts of their marketing department to convince you [their loyal fans] otherwise.
all true…but at the end of the day, bosh is the one who actually has to sign that piece of paper. the raps can (and should) do everything possible to convince him to do so, but he has to want to do it. and as much as we’d all like to pretend we know what’s going on in his head, only he truly knows.
except that, you could argue that there are quite a few teams (actually, the majority of teams) over the last 20-odd years that have re-signed their own player(s) (or FA’s) to max or max-like contracts who have not what a ch’ip.
the point which has been made ad nauseum on this forum is not, for the most part, whether bosh is a ‘good’ player – aside from a few fanaticals, most here recognize that he is a special players in this league. what many have an issue with is whether he’s worth max money. that’s it. it’s somewhat irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things, since it seems apparent he’s going to get it, either from the raps, or someone else via sign & trade (i can’t see any situation in which he simply signs with another team, UNLESS it’s with miami; it’s the only situation that makes sense from a team & financial standpoint (no state tax).
all that being said, i don’t think anyone assumes that because he’ll be earning the same as wade & lebron that he’s on the same level as those two…but why is that a concern? what matters is whether bosh is as valuable to the raps (or to whatever team he’s with while earning that contract) as wade/lebron are to their teams. if so, then it’s a non-issue. if, however, the raps would need another max (or near max) type player to whom bosh can complement, then does that not put the raps at a financial disadvantage vis a vis the ability to build quality depth?
let’s say lebron & wade both re-sign with the cavs/heat, and bosh does the same (stays with the raps); with both lebron/wade, there would be a clear pecking order, with both assuming alpha dog roles & the team being built around them, with secondary/supporting players (i.e. non-max contract types). with the raps, is bosh ‘THAT’ guy? or do they need a secondary ‘alpha?’ i don’t see another one on the roster currently, so does that mean they go out & (over)pay a FA to play that role? wouldn’t that then mean that they’d have TWO max guys, both of whom are likely not worth it (if the raps track record is any indication, they seem to be able to attract mid-tier FA’s, and only when they overpay them as if they were top-tier guys).
of course, competent management should be able to do any of these things. unfortunately, MLSE is only concerned with making money, which is made obvious by the fact that they seem committed to blowing $130M on a guy who’s *probably* only worth 80% of that. clearly, they are cheap motherfuckers.
sorry for the length/rambling-ness…i just wanted to see what it was like to be a long-winded douchebag.
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let’s say lebron & wade both re-sign with the cavs/heat, and bosh does the same (stays with the raps); with both lebron/wade, there would be a clear pecking order, with both assuming alpha dog roles & the team being built around them, with secondary/supporting players (i.e. non-max contract types). with the raps, is bosh ‘THAT’ guy? or do they need a secondary ‘alpha?’ i don’t see another one on the roster currently, so does that mean they go out & (over)pay a FA to play that role? wouldn’t that then mean that they’d have TWO max guys, both of whom are likely not worth it (if the raps track record is any indication, they seem to be able to attract mid-tier FA’s, and only when they overpay them as if they were top-tier guys).
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Why use Lebron & Wade as comparisons in the first place? Why not use a player like Paul Pierce? Or, Ray Allen? Or, Kevin Garnett? Or, the Boston Celtics instead of the Cavs & Heat? Is there a clear pecking order on that team which was good enough to win the NBA title, last season, as one of the best outfits in league history?
Is Garnett a “Max. Contract Player”?
Is Garnett a “clutch scorer”?
Is Paul Pierce the heart & soul of their team? … as their “best player”, who refused to trade when offers came their way and their team was struggling at the bottom of the EC?
Is Ray Allen not an example of the type of “tier two” player [i.e. behind Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade, Duncan & Garnett] that ALL great-to-good players in the history of the NBA have needed to be surrounded by in order to even have a legit chance at ever winning a championship?
This whole business of Chris Bosh not being an Alpha Dog, and it somehow effecting the W-L/Playoff capabilities of the Raptors … in their current form … is a complete red-herring.
Who was the Alpha Dog on the championship Seattle Supersonic team of the 1970’s? Or, the Alpha Dog on the Dave Cowens’ led Celtics team during the same era? Or, the Washington Bullets, lead by Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes, Phil Chenier and Bobby Dandridge?
I’m sorry … but, the history of this great game does happen to go back beyond just the Michael Jordan era.
Even in the modern game … the simple fact is that someone like Tim Duncan actually FAILS to qualify as an Alpha Dog, by definition … yet the Spurs have been the Gold Standard franchise in this league for the past 10 years. [i.e. no one should try and assert that there's a gigantic difference between someone who is playing on a Max. Contract vs someone who is also a terrific player and then AFTER winning a championship already is then prepared to play on a slightly lower salary scale in order to better his team's chances of keeping that same Top Roster together for an additional period of years, e.g. comparing a $23.0 M/yr player to a $21.0 M/yr player]
The fact is … an Alpha Dog like Kobe Bryant does NOT any championship at all without, not just a player like Pau Gasol but also, top notch players like Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher, Andrew Bynum, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, and Luke Walton on his team; which applies applies equally well to someone like Dwyane Wade, or Shaquille O’Neal, or Hakeem Olajuwon, or Michael Jordan, or Isiah Thomas, or Magic Johnson, or Larry Bird, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or Bill Walton, or Julius Erving, or Willis Reed, or Wilt Chamberlain, or Oscar Robertson, or Bill Russell, or George Mikan, etc.
If a team is going to be taken seriously by the other outfits across the league and the best players from across the league it needs to be able to re-sign its own unrestricted free agents. If it cannot do that, it has no hope of ever winning the championship in the NBA.
Whether Chris Bosh qualifies as being good enough for a Max. Contract is a GIGANTIC red-herring in this entire situation.
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of course, competent management should be able to do any of these things. unfortunately, MLSE is only concerned with making money, which is made obvious by the fact that they seem committed to blowing $130M on a guy who’s *probably* only worth 80% of that. clearly, they are cheap motherfuckers.
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A good marketer/financial profiteer knows that by spending $130.0 M on a single player … but scrimping on the remainder of the roster … he can still turn a tidy profit every year while convincing his fanbase that he is really trying his best to win. It’s just bad luck that does him in … year after year after year, etc..
A championship calibre pro sport manager, on the other hand, knows that it is impossible to build a team capable of winning the league title without having Quality Depth throughout the roster, plus a High End head coach, and that if he can succeed in winning the Larry O’Brien Trophy the by-product will be more than good enough to keep his owner happy and his coffers full.
Is there anyone here who doubts that the Lakers and the Celtics and the Spurs … and even the Pistons [though they traded Billups this season, it was to ensure that they could re-build while remaining a playoff team and gearing up for another run at the top in a changing financial landscape] … and the Cavaliers and the Magic and the Blazers and the Mavericks, etc., are in the game to win the NBA championship?
I don’t think so.
By contrast … are there any here who doubt MLSE’s commitment to play alongside the Big Boyz in this league, in full pursuit of the Larry O’Brien Trophy?
I think there are.
Then, again, I could always be wrong.
But signing Bosh as a centrepiece of the Raptors whether to a max contract or something less is exactly what I believe condemns the Raptors to treadmill status or something just a little better (maybe perennial second round playoff team). The issue is how good a team can you have when Chris Bosh is, as yertu says, the alpha dog of the team. I don’t think you ever make it beyond treadmill status. That’s why the Stackhouse example is a good one. Bosh has to be better for him to be “the guy” on the Raptors. He is very good. He’s also about as good as he is going to be and no amount of coaching is going to vault the Raptors to contender status without another genuine star player being on the team. Maybe that player is Bargnani, although I think he was drafted to replace Bosh more than complement him.
If Babcock had dealt with VC the way Kupchak dealt with Kobe, we might be singing a slightly different tune as Raptor fans. Of course, Babcock would still have had to luck out with the equivalent to the Gasol trade.
The reason why there is no 2nd genuine “star” in Toronto has nothing to do with Chris Bosh … either his ability or his character.
The reason there is no 2nd, and/or 3rd, and/or 4th genuine “star” on the Raptors roster is because of the relatively “poor” personnel moves made by the people responsible for running this franchise over the last several seasons, including the most recent 4.
Chris Bosh is more than good enough to be a central/key/however-you-wish-to-word-it player on a championship NBA team … in a similar way to how Kevin Garnett was once in Minnesota and is now today with the Celtics … if he has the right pieces to the puzzle to go along with him.
Whether he’s a Max. Contract Player or not is irrelevant.
It’s the Quality of the 12-15 players on a roster that matter the most [in addition to a High End head coach] … not how much money a team’s best player makes, as long as he is truly one of the best players in the entire league which Chris Bosh clearly is.
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If Babcock had dealt with VC the way Kupchak dealt with Kobe, we might be singing a slightly different tune as Raptor fans. Of course, Babcock would still have had to luck out with the equivalent to the Gasol trade.
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IMO …
* Your observation about Wince Carter and Rob Babcock is 100% accurate.
* Kupchak did the Right Thing and has been handsomely rewarded for it. Not everybody has the courage and the acumen to do what Mitch has done with the Lakers since he’s been the man in-charge. Kudos to him!
* The Gasol trade was NOT luck. It came about because Mitch Kupchak actually knows what he’s doing as Top Notch GM in this league. There were other moves that the Lakers could have fallen into the trap of making. They did not, however … and, as they say, the rest is now history.
“Luck is the residue of opportunity and design.” – Branch Rickey
Hi,
I’ve been a basketball fan for quite some time and have seen some crazy crazy trade rumors. Can anyone explain why the following trade is a good deal (or even a reasonable one) for the Raptors????
Luol Deng, Jerome James 16th Pick, 26th Pick
for
Bosh and the 9th Pick
I realize James is an expiring contract and Deng would finally give us a decent SG, but I’m almost positive there’s a better deal to be had.
It would be considered a “fair” trade if not for the inclusion of our 9th pick – It was written by a hopeful Bulls fan – plus I cant imagine Banks not being included in a multiplayer Bosh trade… BC should be smart enough to keep him for this season and let him play his heart out for a contract in our jersey – than decide to sign and trade him or simply re-sign him to a max deal. Its the most logical choice for both sides (win-win).
this trade idea was obviously posted by a Bulls fan… no way the Raps would give up Bosh for only 1 decent player and give up the #9 pick as well.
The only way I would consider doing a trade with the Bulls would be something like this:
RAPS GET
- Deng
- Tyrus Thomas
- #16 pick
BULLS GET
- Bosh
- Banks
i agree there is no way we would give up the 9th pick and bosh for deng and 2 high first round picks. dengs a huge disapointment theres no way..
I don’t know who ‘Bryce’ is but he’s a fool. The Bosh decision has plenty more variables then ‘does BC/MLSE want him’.
Although, in his same post he said he felt sorry for Vince Carter because, and I paraphrase, the team traded a washed up Kidd for an All-Star in Harris and this has disappointed Vince, who has always been ‘yurning’ (sic) for a championship. The NBA is not is strong suit.
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except that, you could argue that there are quite a few teams (actually, the majority of teams) over the last 20-odd years that have re-signed their own player(s) (or FA’s) to max or max-like contracts who have not what a ch’ip.
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This fact does not invalidate the original observation made.
i.e. because many of the teams that have managed to re-sign their own “best players” who are eligible to become unrestricted free agents also failed to win the championship does NOT mean that re-signing one’s own “best player” in that type of situation is less than a necessity if a team actually does want to be considered as a legitimate contender for a league championship some day in the future, and that it is somehow not a required element for the teams in this league that actually do win the championship.
You posted “Toronto Raptors and the Draft” in your Latest Web Article, and right from the beginning, it made me laugh.
[ "The Raptors had a horrible season finishing third from the bottom in the East. Anthony Parker, Shawn Marion, and Jake Voskhul are all free agents. That is 2 starters and a top bench player. ......." ]
So much for perspectives.
Any team that wants to win a championship will need at least two players the same caliber as bosh…yes or no?
so why get rid of him 4 similar or less value?
hes top 15 (at least) IN THE NBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your gunna need a player like that to win and trading him won’t give you one of those players so why do it?
look what happened with carter…if we didnt trade him wed have two all-stars on the team
if we dont trade bosh I believe we will have 2 maybe 3 all-stars soon—Bosh Bargnani + Jose
mybe 4!!!= the draft or Marion
From a fan’s perspective I salivate at the idea of considering us having 4 all-stars, but until we play better defense and get some wins… all we have is 4 scorers.
We’ve become hostages.
If we can take away any truth from this thread, it’s this.
Completely disagree.
Logical points with rational arguments regarding the team were made, although they were excessive in length.
I mean hostages of our own interest in the Raps draft, trade scenarios, etc.
Maybe a cap of 200 words should be used for posts