Some think Bosh isn’t worth a max deal anyways, so the Raptors should just get whatever they can for him in a trade, rather than crippling their future cap. Don’t buy that. Good teams have an all-star or three. Trading the only all-star on the roster and one of only two top-15-20 players the team has had in its 15-year history because he’ll make too much money is folly.
Perennial all-stars get paid, period. Sure he’s not a LeBron, a Chris Paul or a Wade, but not too many are.
Bosh is not Toronto’s problem. Lack of overall talent is.
The pressure is on Bryan Colangelo now to do something about that or risk having to build around a talent-base that just isn’t good enough.
Andrea Bargnani, Jose Calderon, the ninth pick in this draft and whatever middling pieces a team will give up for an unsigned Bosh won’t get the Raptors anywhere, besides maybe an annual first-round exit.
Toronto Raptors superstar forward Chris Bosh joined Hoops to talk about the NBA Finals, the off season, his budding electronic empire and his future in Toronto.
As for taking less than a max deal to allow Colangelo to beef up the rest of the lineup, Bosh doesn’t sound like a guy who would consider that.
"An old school guy told me: ‘Take advantage. You can’t play this game forever. Make sure you maximize your potential,’ " Bosh said.
When it was put to Bosh that he was saying no to a hometown discount, Bosh laughed before replying, "In a nice way."
For now, Bosh’s focus is on improving his game.
And this summer, that means hitting the weight room hard and hitting the dinner table often.
While he set the odds at "good" that he’ll be back in Toronto after next summer – the Raptors, after all, can pay him more than any other team – it’s hardly a guarantee. And so Bryan Colangelo, the general manager, is in the midst of making a tenure-defining read of the tea leaves, to either bank on Bosh re-signing next summer or to engineer an asset-salvaging trade before Bosh leaves for zilch.
Complicating it all is the reality that trading an all-star rarely yields equal value, which is why so many NBA teams give franchise-player contracts to second-tier all-stars. Certainly Bosh, centrepiece of a squad that has won exactly zero playoff series since he arrived, has cemented himself in the latter category. And more and more he comes off as a delusional duper-star. Alert observers still cringe at the season finale in Chicago, when the Texan – needing 18 rebounds to average an even 10 boards a game for the season – pulled down 19 caroms. Too bad his season-high binge came for selfish purposes on the last night of a lost campaign.
That is not to say Bosh is not critical of his own shortcomings; the four-time all-star is aware that he has hit a certain plateau in his career – as he puts it, "I’ve felt that I’ve been really stagnant." He has grand plans this summer to transform his body, which is still more foal than racehorse.
But Bosh also has a realistic assessment of his value on the National Basketball Association’s open market next summer, and has no plans to compromise that. Ask him if he considers himself a player worthy of a maximum NBA contract, and he does not hesitate.
Bosh is currently earning $14,410,581 over 2 years, the same as LeBron, Melo and Wade but will obviously look for more when he’s a free agent. The Knicks will continue to create cap space for the big 2010 class.
But in the mean time Toronto need to try and build a better team around Bosh so he will be convinced to stay with the Raptors, if they don’t do anything to improve the team Bosh will certainly not want to re-sign with the Raptors in 2010.
Bosh is unique in that he has the game of a small forward (driving to the hoop, shooting range) in a power forward’s body. Defensively he gets bullied in the post by stronger players like Garnett, Sheed and Howard (but Howard can’t guard Bosh either — Bosh averaged 24/13 on 53% in four games against Orlando this year). Offensively, he’s efficient, but has rarely single-handedly taken over games late.
Barring on-court epiphany similar in magnitude to T-Pain, CB4 is Pau Gasol. If he improves defensively, then maybe Kevin Garnett. Players who are perfect 1A superstars in the league. They will put up mad numbers but for whatever reason, those numbers correlate more with All-Star game appearances than winning and playoff success.
So let’s just say that both Jrue Holiday and Stephen Curry are off the board, and Tyreke Evans is there at 8. With what we now know about Toronto’s love affair, what does Donnie Walsh do?
Does he take Evans and immediately call Toronto and inquire about a possible Lee, (another contract might be necessary depending on what Lee signs for) and Evans for Chris Bosh deal? You’d think that the conversation would take place especially if Walsh somehow acquires a later first round pick. He’d take Evans and sign Lee then look up “C” for “Colangelo.”
There was some hysteria over a story or two yesterday that suggested that pending free agent Chris Bosh was finished in this town after next season.
The Raptors star played down the talk last night on The Fan.
He suggested that some people were putting words in his mouth.
"I’d say the odds are good (he would be a Raptor beyond next season)," Bosh said.
"I like it here, that’s what people don’t understand. I like it here … Toronto has treated me well."
The Raptors went from Atlantic division champions to squeezing into the playoffs to being a lottery team, and it seems Bosh is the same player throughout.
The only season they truly had success, Bosh not only was not being asked to create, but also not being asked to carry the offense in the clutch; that was TJ Ford’s job.
Therefore, if the Raptors were eliminated in New Jersey, it wasn’t only because Bosh was being stopped by journeymen centers like Mikki Moore and Collins, but because TJ Ford isn’t the type of talent who can successfully carry an offense.
In the 2009 draft, the ninth pick is a roll of the dice between any of about ten players. Some mock drafts have the Raptors taking Jrue Holliday, guard from UCLA, others have them taking Stephen Curry from Davidson or forward Earl Clark from Louisville. Look for a point guard to be the eventual choice, which one though is anybody’s guess.
So when there is no clear-cut draft pick, what is the GM to do? He starts making some phone calls around the league to find out how he can improve his team through a trade.
When trying to understand how GM Colangelo would shape them team through trade, we need to look at the needs of the Raptors;
17th – Toronto Raptors
Original Pick: Michael Bradley, F, Villanova
New Pick: Kwame Brown, C, High SchoolI think a major reason that Brown never developed was the pressure of being the top pick in a draft. Combine that with what I’m sure was constant ridicule from Jordan and Brown really had no chance. Send him to Canada to learn to get tough from Antonio Davis, an elder Hakeem Olajuwon and a grinder that was Jerome Williams. You never know…
Once again, there were rumors during this year’s trade deadline that Stoudemire could be heading to Toronto in exchange for Bosh, but the rumors fell apart hours before the deadline hit (like all others did).
Stoudemire could be the perfect partner with Jose Calderon, who, like current Phoenix Suns point guard Steve Nash, is very effective in the pick-and-roll and open court game, which Stoudemire thrives in.
The Raptors may not immediately become contenders after this move, but they would certainly have a chance of making the playoffs.
This past May after his return from Canada, José Manuel was assessed by the medical team of the Central Sports Research Unit of the Faculty of Sports Sciences of the University of Castilla-La Mancha.
Jose had an ultrasound and a study of his dynamic muscle function and morphology in order to determine the status of his recent muscular injury and the most appropriate treatment for his recovery. The results of these analyses helped José Manuel to make his decision to renounce his attendance in the European Championship and focus on his recovery throughout the summer.
It seems as though a certain segment within Raptorville is, once again, suffering from grotesque “delusions of grandeur”, regarding the actual ability and hoped for improvement of Andrea Bargnani [C, 7-0, 250, 2006 No. 1 Overall Selection] this off-season.
i.e. According to Doug Smith, in a segment on PrimeTime Sports [FAN590] yesterday, a legitimate case can be made that Bargnani might qualify as the 2nd Best Center in the Eastern Conference [EC] over the course of the 2009-2010 season.
But if you put down your pitch forks and calm down for just a second. If you are the agent for Chris Bosh. Why would you not take this course of action. What happened today is not a ticket out of town for Chris Bosh. In fact in his interview on Hoops he said he likes Toronto and he said that the city has been good to him for 6 years he has been here. Why there is this massive panic to trade Chris Bosh before he leaves has never made any sense to me. It makes even less sense than the stories and comments that T.J Ford was this bad dude that was the problem with the Toronto Raptors. When are people going to chill out and relax about these things. I have read little to nothing positive about the Toronto Raptors since the season ended. A guy that was one of only 3 players in the NBA to record a 20 and 10 season is suddenly not worth having out of fear he is going to walk away? It is crazy.
70 Raps
Personally, I would prefer Bosh to spend the off-season working on his ball-handling and decision making. I don;t see any potential for Bosh to gain much more muscle due to his narrow shoulders. Besides, if he gains more weight, than he’ll lose at least some of his quickness, which is one of his biggest strengths.
Trying to bulk is going to make him ideally suited to being a traditional back to the basket big man, which is obviously taking him out of the range that is more suited to his skill set.
shats,
The best Center who’s ever played the game had a physique similar to Chris Bosh.
Bosh needs only to continue getting physically stronger, as he matures through his 20’s. You’re correct; bulking up is not what he should do. As he moves into his late 20’s-early 30’s, CB4 is quite capable of excelling in the NBA, as a dominant Center, whose strength is his agility … i.e. physically, mentally and emotionally.
He is a foundation player of the highest order, if he’s used as the Center-piece of the team.
Shaq and bosh have similar physiques????
Har.
Looks like Triano would prefer Bosh become the next Bill Russell as well. Question is do you pay a ‘poor man’s Bill Russell’ 30% of your cap?
If you think about KG, he’s probably even thinner than Bosh, but he’s wiry strong. You don;t need bulk to be an excellent man-to-man defender or a team defender, so Bosh should be able to learn these facets
I’m through with this site. You missed the most important news of yesterday. Bryan Colangelo and the Raptors have unveiled a Raptors-branded watch! Come on people!
YOU TAKE THE CAKE SON
“Take advantage. You can’t play this game forever. Make sure you maximize your potential”
This guy’s all about himself and I can’t really blame him. He’s maximizing his internet presence, brand name, image, products. Everything but his game really.
I’d like to see him on the Raptors alongside two other All-Stars if possible. Give him the max, sure, but make sure you somehow get two other players on the team that are his equals in talent if not better. Otherwise its all for naught.
What the raptors need to do (specifically BC) is take a leaf out of Darrel Morey’s book and look for players who are undervalued in the NBA (although they are pretty much improssible to find), specific role players that can provide defense and toughness. Buy into the second round, take a punt on an undersized big man and hope he becomes a Carl Landry or a Chuck Hayes. Patty Mills could become another Aaron Brooks.
Arsenalist,
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re: “Take advantage. You can’t play this game forever. Make sure you maximize your potential”
This guy’s all about himself and I can’t really blame him. He’s maximizing his internet presence, brand name, image, products. Everything but his game really. – by Arsenalist
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There is nothing in this quote from Chris Bosh which reflects what you are attributing to him, i.e. that he all about himself.
If any top player in the history of the game said those same exact words [or anyone in any other field of endeavour] it would/should be viewed as a simple form of “Carpe Diem!”
Each human being only lives once and one of the most fundamental values across all societies is to suck the life out of each and every day you’ve been gifted with on this planet, leaving no regrets in your rear view mirror and maximizing the abilities you have, both, individually and as an integral part of the respective teams you happen to belong to.
What Bosh said in those words reflects Leadership of the highest order … depending on the perspective YOU have in your own life.
Leadership in the highest order?? Really? I mean, are we really going there? If there was an anti-ROTD on this site, yours would be it.
I’ll give Bosh credit, he looks out for himself and that quote is nothing more than confirmation of that. But to say he’s somehow being a “leader” by saying he’s trying to get his is beyond silly. What he’s saying is that unless he gets his money and wishes ,he’s out of here and will leave the franchise hanging out to dry and with it the players/fans he’s supposed to lead. I don’t have a problem with that, let’s just not bestow any more credit than what he’s earned.
ppl see what they wanna see. i’m over the idealistic notion that any player, in any sport, is willing to leave money on the table, even if it means helping build a stronger team. you’d think at some point common sense would snap some of these blowhards to attention – i mean, how hard is it to figure out that the more $$ one individual makes, the less there is to spend on bringing in other important pieces that would help make the team better? if bosh feels he’s a max-dollar guy, so be it, i’m not one to argue. but i’m getting a bit fucking tired of hearing about how contracts like hump’s or bargs are screwing over the team, but one paying a 2nd banana 30% is supposed to be awesome? if bosh is indeed a 2nd banana, doesn’t that mean the team should also have, y’know, a 1st banana? if so, wouldn’t that require paying said 1st banana max money (or near max money) as well? awesome….can’t wait to see what kind of garbage bench can be assembled with bosh making 30%…people tend to panic & figure the raps will be lost w/o him, but re-signing him could very well be more disasterous. shit, it’d be like when orlando signed lewis to what was then (and still is) considered a pretty ridiculous contract. except, of course, the raps don’t have a howard, turk-e-loo, nelson, pietrus et al to surround him.
the one thing that i think can be taken as a positive out of bosh’s extra-curricular activities is that it seems to me he’s simply setting himself up the same endorsement/exposure opportunities other marquee players are privy to simply by their geographic location…which tells me he may not be looking to sign elsewhere simply for increased opportunities outside of ball. well, that & the fact he can make a shitload more by staying in TO.
Any team in the NBA that has a Max Contract Player on its roster still has a huge portion of their remaining salary dollars available to surround this player with a collection of high calibre teammates in order to perform at a Top Notch level in this league.
If that team cannot accomplish this goal then it has a problem elsewhere in its organization, not with the player who is earning that one salary.
“If that team cannot accomplish this goal then it has a problem elsewhere in its organization, not with the player who is earning that one salary.”
Kind of a cop out, if you don’t mind. Why must the problem exist “elsewhere in its organization”? The cap (and the idea of a max salary)
is essentially a way of handicapping teams, to ensure fairness and more importantly to give owners control over ballooning salaries. If a team cannot accomplish the goal of fielding a “top notch” team, it is at least in part because the league is setup in a way to limit a team’s ability to do so.
Understand this doesn’t mean that a max player has any personal culpability (or inherent villainy) but it does mean that he is limiting his teams ability to surround him with top notch free agents. Rashard Lewis’ salary will inhibit the Magic’s ability to offer Turkoglu an adequate salary this summer – this isn’t a question of an organizational problem (unless you think they already had a problem by overpaying Lewis – but you’ve said it is not the problem of the one player earning that salary). Max salaries represent a big enough percentage of the cap that they absolutely bind a teams ability to surround that person with top notch teammates. There is a reason ($) that the Cavs didn’t take Shaq off of Phoenix’s hands this year, despite asking for so little in return. Washington was dead last in the East because they paid a guy max money, who was too busy misusing the word factorial to play a game this season.
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re: Kind of a cop out, if you don’t mind. Why must the problem exist “elsewhere in its organization”?
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No cop out. It assigns the blame where it belongs … i.e. at the feet of the team’s GM, who is getting paid BIG bucks to succeed in this precise environment.
I agree with your point about player’s wanting to maximize their earning, but I think there is a specific scenario when players will leave money on the table to build a better team: the chance to latch on to a contender and get that ring. Granted, it’s usually after a buy-out, so the player gets to have his cake and eat it, too. (Starbury, Alonzo Morning, etc.)
It’s a selfish move in a different way, and I hate when players do it (it strikes me as the opposite of true sportsmanship), but the precedent is there.
That said, I don’t blame Bosh for wanting to get paid the max contract. If Toronto won’t give him the money, some other team will.
Put me firmly in the camp of those who think Bosh should get the max deal, wherever it is. I don’t buy the argument that he’s not Kobe, LeBron or Wade. That would only make sense if players were paid on a sliding relative scale. The fact is, he’s one of the top 20 players in the league, and at any given time, there are more than 3 making top dollars.
It’s true that paying 30% of a team’s resources to one guy makes it hard to assemble a team of high-paid talent, but that’s the boat every team is in. It just takes good talent evaluation, shrewd drafting, and some dumb luck to fill out the rest of the roster with a strong supporting cast. Whether Colangelo can do that or not, remains to be seen.
Arsenalist,
For the sake of comparison …
At the moment, are you trying to maximize your potential?
[both as an individual and a member of the Raptors Republic team]
IMO, you are … which is exactly what you SHOULD be doing with your life.
Now, in terms of your professional life … are you doing the same thing?
IMO, you probably are … which is exactly what you SHOULD be doing there, as well.
Now, in terms of your personal life … are you doing the same thing?
IMO, you probably are … which is exactly what you SHOULD be doing there, as well.
etc., etc., etc.
Carpe Diem! … one and all.
Hey Khandor, when your done kissing arse’s arse, Horace would like his saying back
So when Gilbert Arenas actually left money on the table for the Wizards to be more competitive…the argument persists that he was not displaying very good leadership skills because he was not maximizing his own potential.
Sadly, Gilbert Arenas is self-admittedly a pretty crappy leader.
Perhaps Khandor is indeed on to something.
I’ll bet that “old school guy” was Jalen Rose. There’s a max deal that got more than one GM fired.
+3
Since watching the LeBrons exit the playoffs last weekend, I’ve come around on my opinion of Bosh. I think we need to keep him if we have any shot at being great in the next 3-4 years. It’s clear that no player can do it by himself, we need a lot of great talent to make it further in the playoffs, and Bosh is a good start. Colangelo should focus on bringing in talent to surround him.
However, if the writing is on the wall for Chris leaving, we do what we have to do. I’ve changed my mind though, I want him to stay.
Stay or go, I can live with either if management’s other moves make sense. But they need to have a plan. Whether that’s go for it this coming season and then rebuild if it doesn’t work (with Miami possibly getting our draft pick next year) or start the rebuild now while liquidating the one decent asset (Bosh) the team has. But make a decision. Sitting on the fence in this situation strikes me as the only guaranteed bad move.
I’m loving these “Morning Coffee” daily Raptor news report.
Top-notch!
could not have laughed harder to start the day! the panic button sums it up perfectly. this was the biggest non story i have seen (this is what happens when the leafs aren’t in the playoffs and the jays lose a game). should we check the miami herald and the clev plain-dealer for the same hysteria?
IMO,
Prime examples of “hysteria”, in Raptorville, are these:
1. Thinking that the Raptors NEED to trade Bosh because he elects to “Opt Out” and become a UFA next summer … despite the fact that he has not yet told the Raptors he has no intention of re-signing with them at that point, if their organization presents the best available option for him next summer.
2. Thinking that the Raptors would be giving up a MAJOR ASSET if they consider trading Andrea Bargnani [instead of Chris Bosh] in exchange for the type of assets which their team NEEDS to acquire moving forward from this point … whether Chris Bosh is a Toronto Raptor after next summer or not.
Yet another Hate-On for Andrea comment…
i don’t think it’s necessarily a ‘hate-on’ for bargs. khan simply doesn’t view bargs’ long-term potential to be overly high, at least in the facets of the game that are required for team success from his position. we all acknowledge that he’s a poor rebounder & help defender…and if there are two more important facets of the game at the centre position, i’d like to hear what they are. his perimeter ability is excellent, especially for a man of his size…unfortunately, he doesn’t play the 3, or even the 4, for the raps (positions where a sharp perimeter game are more highly valued), so his offensive contributions, in & of themselves – while impressive – haven’t been a corollary to team success. yes, it’s neat having an offensive mis-match (watching 5’s lumber out to the perimeter is a good hoot), and he has shown a remarkable improvement as a low-post defender. but anyone who’s watched him over the last 3 years should have a pretty good idea of his limitations, and that those limitations, while mitigated somewhat by his offensive potential, cannot be ignored.
if the idea is to sell high, then there may not be a higher point in his career in which to obtain those pieces that would both help improve the overall team dynamic, and convince bosh to remain.
the problems i, and others, have are two-fold:
a) i really don’t think the market is super-hot for him at this point, to the degree that the raps would really get that much back for him…and the risk of giving up on a guy who is seemingly on the cusp of breaking out isn’t something most GM’s long for. if they could obtain a legit player (and i’m not talking all-star level here…just a good solid pro) AND a good pick in this draft (say, mid-late teens/early 20’s?), while also shedding an onerous contract (banks/kapono – we really have to coin a name for the ‘banks/kapono killer contracts’), then that’s something they have to consider, no?
b) he may not even be close to his ceiling. let’s say he spends the summer getting stronger, improving his foot-speed, etc., and starts the year doing all the things that he needs to to be an effective 5 (rebounding, help D, etc). while he’ll likely never be a ‘build-around’ kind of guy, he could be an integral part of building a good team…the proverbial 2nd or 3rd banana, behind bosh &/or whoever comes on board, either in the draft or via FA/trades.
re: b)
I would have no difficulty with the Raptors using Bargnani as the permanent Back-up Center to Bosh, moving forward from here … except for two things:
1. As a former No. 1 [Overall] Draft Pick, Bargnani is on a different salary structure than other players in the league and when his contract is up for renewal in the not too-distant future, as Dave has said on several prior occasions, he is going to be due a hefty salary increase, to the tune of a lot more money than CB4 is getting paid at present. Does anyone really want to be paying a Back-up Center the type of money which the 2006 No. 1 [Overall] Draft Pick will be due?
2. Does anyone really want to be using the 2006 No. 1 [Overall] Draft Pick as a part-time sub coming off the bench for Chris Bosh?
The reality of the situation is that the Raptors have 2 centers at the moment:
A. The No. 4 [Overall] Selection from the 2003 NBA Draft, who just happens to be a 4-time All-Star, at the age of 25 [6-10, 230], is a 20/10 player, and has had his best years in this league playing Center for this team;
and,
B. The No. 1 [Overall] Selection from the 2006 NBA Draft, who just happens to be a 0-time All-Star, at the age of 24 [7-0, 250], is a 15/5 player, and has had 1 decent season’s worth of production in his NBA career to-date;
and they only NEED to keep one … while trading the other to acquire more of the assets they need to continue to develop the rest of their team.
Bargnani is the one who SHOULD be dealt, not Bosh.
Shawn Marion is the one who should be signed & then traded.
Jason Kapono is the one who should be dealt away.
It’s not Rocket Science … but, you can’t be afraid and you better know exactly what you’re doing at all times.
I agree that Kapono should be traded and I bet most other fans agree. The reason he hasn’t is because no other team wants a 5 million albatross on their salary cap. I don’t think even a first rounder is enough of a sweetener for another team to take Kapono and its not like the raptors are stocked with youngsters to pare up in a trade. In essence, it is BC’s fault that we have kapono on that crappy contract, but you can’t turn around and blame him for not trading him.
Dino Gunner,
Although I usually have only marginal interest in dicussing trade proposals, I will put this one out there for you [and others who might think that they are absolutely no alternatives which just might be of some interest to another solid GM in the NBA, concerning Jason Kapono] to consider.
It’s something which I’ve spoken with Scott G. about on my blog.
How do you think Larry Legend would feel about a deal like THIS?
Not ideal for either team but, with certain benefits to both teams, perhaps not a totally outlandish option to consider.
I’m having a hard time with the way Bargnani is being analyzed, including the prospect of trading him. 2 questions come to mind about his progression.
1) What effect did Smitch have? Although AB didn’t make his big change until later, I have to wonder how much the coaching affected Andrea’s confidence level. Sam was master of the Hook (see Joey G), to figure that might’ve played a role in his slower development. And from what Andrea stated in a recent interview, he didn’t like Smitch. We often accuse AB of not having a bad ass attitude, so maybe that’s a sign. I know it caught me off guard that he’d say something like that.
2) How much did O’Neil play in Andrea’s progression? Did he provide “inspiration” or whatever? Or did O’Neil’s injury provide that opportunity, with Bargnani finally “getting it” once the starter role came his way. God knows how much he got jerked around. One day a 3, the next day a back-up, the following day .. whatever. Great way to build confidence.
I don’t define AB as our franchise player — although, who knows. I do see him as a vital component to a good team. Same way I view Jose. Or a player with Bosh’s capabilities. I see CB as our best, something like Lebron is to the Cavs. I just don’t see him in the same stratosphere. And I don’t see a salary at the same level. He’s great …. but not Lebron great. That guy deserves max. Bosh does not. And if we can’t keep CB because of his “I have to take advantage [and maximize my potential]” beliefs, then so be it. To do otherwise means the word “team” gets taken out of this picture, and we become a star without parts … or at least cheaper parts because we tied up too much into one player. I just don’t think that’s healthy for the Raptors to move forward.
As far as I’m concerned, if AB was put out onto the market, teams would be knocking pretty hard at the door. If the Cavs had Andrea, Howard might not have been so dominating — at least that’s my opinion.
Teams would also be more inclined to believe you can improve Andrea’s rebound numbers, and certainly they’d believe defense could be taught to the guy.
Longtime reader, occasional poster.
1. I see nothing wrong with what Bosh is doing…I think he’s fairly genuine and wants to be “THE MAN” but also truly wants to win. Being the man does not mean thinking he’s in the top 3 of the league, but being the main offensive weapon and leader of a title team.
So if he wants to make the most money possible, it’s by re-signing with Toronto. If he wants to be the man, it’s most likely in Toronto. But by using his leverage, he’s putting the pressure on the Raps management. Put the right pieces around him, become a legit title threat and there’s a reason to stay.
Anyone who doesn’t think they would use the same leverage if they were in his shoes is either in denial or is incapable of succeeding in any environment (i.e. your own career) where the same opportunity would arise.
2. I don’t think the Raps can win a title with Bosh and Bargnani as their frontcourt. Both may improve, but never enough to be all-NBA defensive players. History has shown that every dominant big man who won a title in the modern era had one of three things:
a) All-NBA guard/wing
b) They were all-NBA defensive players
c) They were led by a Hall of Fame coach
Think of the big men who have won since the 80s – Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Ben Wallace, Garnett. All had 1, 2 or 3 of these ingredients. Bosh has none.
I know we keep hearing that the league is moving to smaller Cs, but Perkins, Jefferson, Oden, Howard, Bynum, Speights & McGee would prove otherwise.
Unless the #9 pick blossoms into a Caron Butler or Paul Pierce from the get go, the reality is the Raps will have to move Bargnani for a wing and replace him at C with a Gortat type player in order for this team led by Bosh to be a serious contender.
3. If the reality is that the Raps can’t do that, then they need to move Bosh….but only if Bargs is the PF and a legit defensive C and wing man are in the package that Bosh commands. If that’s Randolph and Biedrins, or perhaps even Butler, the #5 and McGee….I can live with that.
I think we kill Bosh for what he’s not, and I’d hate to see him leave…but Colangelo won’t move Bargnani, then the choice is to move him or try to win with the B&B frontcourt, and I’d rather move him.
Bombay,
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re: Unless the #9 pick blossoms into a Caron Butler or Paul Pierce from the get go, the reality is the Raps will have to move Bargnani for a wing and replace him at C with a Gortat type player in order for this team led by Bosh to be a serious contender.
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When the Raptors finished with 47 wins in the 2006-2007 and then lost out to the Nets, Bosh was the starting Center with Nesterovic [Gortat?] as the main Back-up.
The reason that team did not go further is because of the problem with TJ Ford’s attitude over time and the injury to Jorge Garbajosa, who was a vital player … at his size and with his skill level … beside a Center like Chris Bosh.
Do you see the possiblity which awaits the Raptors HERE & NOW, if they deal away Bargnani, Marion and Kapono in return for pieces that can adequately plug the holes they have on the roster around Chris Bosh [C] and Jose Calderon [PG] … assuming they re-sign Anthony Parker [Back-up PG/OG] and can add at least 2 or 3 young athletic players from the upcoming NBA Draft [i.e. by trading down from the No. 9 position and buying an addition pick with the $3.0 M they picked up from the trade with Miami]?
I’m not sure I understand your question? Can they break through if they surround Calderon and Bosh with a starting swingman from the lottery, a suitable replacement for Marion’s money and a more appropriate C instead of Bargnani? Yeah, sure….it’s just not likely to happen.
I think Colangelo figured all along when he took Bargnani, that AB was the eventual successor to Bosh at the #4….Bosh had just signed for three years, and not even the biggest optimist thought the Raps would win 47 games in 2006-2007 and BC probably figured he’d be gone in 2010 either way.
Not saying I agree, but Colangelo simply won’t move Bargnani….I don’t think he’s a fit with Bosh, but it is hard to argue with not wanting to give up on a 7 footer in his early 20s, who has improved on offense and defense and has potential to get better.
I’m afraid all our discussions on building a team for a championship are in vain.
I think the Lakers, Celtics and Lebrons will monopolize the fight for a title over the next few years, just because of the talent level they attract and the unlimited cash their owners are ready to spend around their stars. Sure there will be second tier pretenders every year in the mould of the Magic, Nuggets and Rockets.
Ultimately, I think that the fight for the small market teams or messed up ownership teams is delusional. No more San Antonio Spurs and Detroit Pistons. I don’t even trust the Blazers to make the jump and keep all their pieces.
When it comes to the Raptors, keep Bosh.. surround him with talent, but it’s not gonna be enough to go to the finals, i’m afraid.
The age of the dynasties is back!
aldomilan says: Jun 5, 2009 at 12:43 pm …….
Exactly right aldomilan … so why bother trying to get the Ratpors into the playoffs for the next several seasons?! Why not just rebuild the Ratpors so they peak in 3 – 4 seasons when the current dynasties are on the downside and new teams with younger studs can challenge the old all-star heroes..???!!!!
Let Bosh go to some USian team that are playoff contenders so he can max out his potential … athletically and financially. Trying to keep him in Moronto just makes no sense for Bosh .. just for the tribal honkers who are in love with Bosh. OMG!!! Bosh is leaving???!!!! Whaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
National Post reports: But Bosh also has a realistic assessment of his value on the National Basketball Association’s open market next summer, and has no plans to compromise that. Ask him if he considers himself a player worthy of a maximum NBA contract, and he does not hesitate.
……………
That means Bosh will reject an extension from the Ratpors and look to play elsewhere in 2010. What’s so difficult to understand about that. Bosh has lost confidence in playing for Moronto and wants to go back home where he can get a max contract and play for a contending team.
BeeSee must pull the trigger and trade Bosh for athletic pieces around which he can build a decent team .. I repeat “team” … not just some all-star hero that brings in the impotent tribal honkers who need their bball aphrodesiac to shore up their pathetic existence.
I really hate having a one-note, all-star fake hero selling gum and shoes to the Moronto inner city masses. I want real team bball and not having to look at khandor’s mass of Bosh bullsh!t statistics plugging up this fine forum.
Cleveland’s 2010 strategy is interesting example
They’ll have 30% of their cap locked up in LeBron James, 30% of their cap locked up in a second max contract player (if they can acquire that player), then another $9mil tied up in Mo Williams, another $7mil tied up in Varejao.
At this point, with their core in place, the Cavs are still about $7-8 million below the salary cap …. and $18-20 million below the luxury tax threshold.
————————————————————-
There’s still a huge amount of money to spread around after someone signs Bosh to a max contract …. whether that’s Toronto or someone else.
Dave …. consider this logic … If the Ratpors and Cavs traded entire teams less Lebron and Bosh … who would have the superior team???
Do you get my drift? If BC gives 30% of the payroll to Bosh, the rest of the team is still inadequate. Trading Bosh for several athletic pieces would be more productive than dumping $$$$$ on Bosh. Besides, Bosh can get max money from a USian team and live closer to his family in Texas. His commercial value will skyrocket if he goes back to the States … so obvious.
—————————————
re: “Dave …. consider this logic … If the Ratpors and Cavs traded entire teams less Lebron and Bosh … who would have the superior team???”
—————————————
The Raptors would end up with the stronger team.
FAQ — do I have this right? Bosh and James just switch places? Bosh has LeBron’s current Cavaliers teammates, and LeBron has Bosh’s current Raptors teammates? Do I have that right?
And then which team is better? The Raps with James, or the Cavs with Bosh?
I’d pick the team LeBron is on.
He’s a vastly superior player to Bosh … and secondly two player’s (one on either team) contributions will be hugely effected (the main difference in my eyes, because the Cavs supporting cast is a lot better than the Raps otherwise) by whether James or Bosh is on their team — Mo Williams who cannot run the point effectively without a playmaking wing, and Shawn Marion for Toronto who’ll get to return to his best position at the power forward slot. So Mo contributes a lot less with Bosh there, and Marion contributes a lot more with James there.
I think a LeBron James led Raptors wins more games than Bosh’s Cavs.
Dave,
IMO, that Lebron team would win more regular season games, but not necessarily a playoff series vs that Bosh team … although it would probably be a very close and entertaining series.
Here’s what the Raptors roster would then look like:
Daniel Gibson
Wally Szczerbiak
Sasha Pavlovic
Anderson Varejao
Chris Bosh
———————
Mo Williams
Delonte West
JJ Hickson
Joe Smith
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
———————
Tarence Kinsey
Darnell Jackson
Ben Wallace
Lorenzen Wright
Head Coach – MIKE BROWN
PLUS, the 2009 No. 9 [Overall] Draft Pick and $3.0 M to buy an additional pick this year.
vs the Cavaliers:
Jose Calderon
Anthony Parker
Lebron James
Shawm Marion
Andrea Bargnani
———————
Roko Ukic
Jason Kapono
Carlos Delfino
Kris Humphries
Patrick O’Bryant
———————
Marcus Banks
Quincy Douby
Joey Graham
Nathan Jawai
Jake Voskuhl
Head Coach – Jay Triano
Plus the No. 30 [Overall] Draft Pick this year.
Oh, oh — side note — This is exactly the plan I wanted the Raptors to use after they acquired Jermaine O’Neal. Their 2010 plan after Jermaine departed.
Max contract for Bosh. Max contract, or close to it, preferably for a wing who can create for himself and others. Then $9-10mil in either Calderon or a third scorer. And finally a MLE or slightly more contract for a big man who’ll do the dirty work in the paint.
Then also trade Bargnani for either cheap young talent, or a borderline All-Star who’s on a good contract at around $10mil (although that was before the economic downturn, not sure that’s feasible now). Dump Kapono+Humphries, likely having to sell off first round picks in the process.
I thought that would have given the Raptors an excellent chance at putting a contender out on the floor for the 2010/11 season.
Alas, Colangelo bailed out on that magnificent opportunity …. when he made that horrific Shawn Marion trade. Then failed to trade Bargnani, failed to dump Kapono + Humphries.
And now is about to compound his mistakes by handing out contracts to Marion, Delfino, Parker and Co. this summer. Contracts which will handcuff the franchise for the next couple of years.
Dave, I completely agree. With all the fanfare surrounding the JO trade and how we would win either way when he gets off the books in 2010, to see Liar simply lie again and flush it down the drain just so he can have the opportunity to have one of his old players on his roster again for a few months….simply sad.
yeah, but…that’s 4 guys taking up $50M of a roughly $58M cap & roughly $70M tax; even if they go with the minimum roster spots, that’s still 9 guys they need to get signed for $20. now, cleveland doesn’t seem overly concerned with paying the tax, so you figure they’ll do pretty much whatever it takes to not only re-sign james, but to build a contending team, but still…lot’s of eggs in one (well, 4) basket(s)…and that’s assuming the ‘core’ of williams, AV & bron (plus unnamed superstar) are actually good enough, with what would likely be a pretty shyte bench, to be legit contenders.
A team with that much talent in their starting lineup doesn’t need an elite bench. Just a good one. It’s easily achievable to build a good bench with that type of money.
Nine minimum contract players = $7.4 million — only the first $825k counts towards the cap/luxury tax. The league pays the rest.
Add a couple of draft picks and filling out that bench becomes a lot easier — for Cleveland, that’s Hickson, Jackson, their 2009 pick, and their 2010 pick. That’s four players who’ll, I think, earn around $5 million. Those draft picks can flesh out a bench and add some good talent to a roster quickly and cost effectively.
Those four rookie contracts, plus five minimum contracts, is around $9 million. That leaves $10 million to add a sixth man + (final starter or seventh + eight men).
Folks may disagree with me on this … but I think that’s easily achievable.
An example of what I’m talking about:
The Celtics bench in ‘07-’08 when they won the title — James Posey, Eddie House, PJ Brown, Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Tony Allen, Sam Cassell, Gabe Pruitt, Scott Pollard — that cost around $10 million to build.
I excluded Brian Scalabrine in the above moneys — since he was a useful but unnecessary part of that title winning side — he was paid $3mil. A bad contract, which shouldn’t have been there.
Dave,
IMO, that’s a prime example of an elite level bench which the Celtics won with last season [including Scal].
It’s not the money that counts the most but the calibre of the players.
Sam Cassell – titles won with Houston
Eddie House – as good a spot up shooter off the bench as any in the NBA
Tony Allen – an adequate defensive Wing
James Posey – title with Miami
Glen Davis – a PrimeTime NCAA D1 player
Leon Powe – as good a young character player as exists in the NBA today
PJ Brown – title with Miami
Brian Scalabrine – NBA Finals team with NJ
Scott Pollard – solid role playing vet with good Sac-town teams
That’s 9 players who could step into the heat of a playoff game and not be out of their element at all.
When you put players of THAT calibre with the likes of big-money HOFers like Garnett, Pierce & Allen-R … with solid, under-rated youngsters like Rondo & Perkins, plus a solid credentials head coach, who’s been there and done that, like Doc Rivers, and a similar calibre GM, like Danny Ainge … you’ve got the recipe for a NBA Title, working under the mantra of Ubuntu!
I would consider that group a very good bench. Not sure I’d call it elite. I forget where I had them ranked last season, they were definitely in my top 10 benches, not sure if they were in the top five or not, can’t remember.
Anyway, the chief point is that, that type of bench is easily achievable with $3 or so extra million — Posey was a bargain at $3.2mil — a team like Cleveland who’s spending that type of money on their top four players, can build a bench good enough to win an NBA Title.
Dave,
It’s agreed that the Lebron team in question could go far if it had the opportunity to re-stock it’s bench with a different set of players, at a comparable to cost, to those available in this specific scenario … however, that is not what we’re talking about here. Is it?
The question is … regarding this specific Lebron team with the cast of characters on the Raptors at present, excluding Chris Bosh, vs the Bosh team with the cast of characters on the Cavaliers at present, excluding Lebron, no one else added or substracted.
I’m sorry Khandor, I’m lost. Not sure what we’re talking about.
This is FAQ’s scenario, yes? I answered his question in comment #38.
My other comments go back to the Cavs 2010 strategy (#28).
Dave,
Sorry. I thought you were extending your answer to include how the traded for Lebron team could be re-worked to actually become a title contender with the King surrounded by the Rosters’ present roster, minus Chris Bosh. Mis-communication on my part.
Dave,
I agree with you. The Cavs have nothing in their way … with a player like Lebron in the fold … except their own incompetence, when it comes to making basketball-related decisions to improve their team.
As I said publicly when they made the deal this past summer for Mo Williams … while most so-called NBA experts were heaping praise on Danny Ferry … the Cavs actually went BACKWARDS by making that specific move, relative to the other top teams in the EC this season, like Boston, Orlando and Detroit [until Joe D. decided to re-tool his team early-on this season].
Now, this summer, it’s going to be interesting again to see whether or not the Cavs will actually take a step forward with the moves they make, stay the same, or go in reverse like l2 months ago.
bosh has had pure trash his whole career.
bargnani was supposed to be that second guy but the raps are still waiting for the panzy to get more then 5 boards a game
oneal was brought here to be that second guy, but he turned out to be a shell of his former self
get bosh some players, start with derozan
Dave,
————————————–
re: “A team with that much talent in their starting lineup doesn’t need an elite bench. Just a good one.”
————————————–
We disagree about this.
In order to win it all, a team needs an elite level bench.
That’s a rather blanket statement.
While I agree somewhat, that in most situations, bench players are key in the success of most teams, I think stating in a “need” fashion is untrue.
For example:
PG Chris Paul
SG Kobe Bryant
SF LeBron James
PF Tim Duncan
C Dwight Howard
This lineup, as a starting lineup, with players of low value (scrubs) on the bench, would be my favourite against any of the current NBA teams in a playoff series.
Of course, if there’s a problem with WHICH players I chose to outline, feel free to substitute appropriate ones.
I’m not a fan of Khan’s, but in this instance I agree. Unfortunately, BC has painted himself into a corner with his trade for O’Neal and Kapono’s lousy cotract.
He needs to trade both Bargs and Marion for better FITS around Bosh. I love Bargs as a player, but he doesn’t fit with Bosh and we need a SF/SG that can slash for bosh like a dying man needs water. Calderon could also be dealt, but he is not overpaid and does what a point guard needs to do to be effective. He might eventually turn into a poor man’s Deron Williams, which is plenty good enough at 8 mil–plus he wants to be here and took a discount to do it.
I’ve been considering a Bargs + Kapono trade for Jefferson + pick as one piece of the puzzle–but I’m not sure what Marion could get back in a trade.
Anyone have any ideas?
What do you mean “fit” with Bosh? If you’re looking for somebody to play one-two with Bosh you’re going to have to bring in someone with All-Star talent who Bosh can play second fiddle to. You know how Bosh holds that ball for 8 seconds at a time without a clue of what to do? That’s him saying, “I have no idea what to do with the rock”. His basketball IQ is not great and he’s ideally suited for the role he was asked to play in the Olympics. It’s be awesome if we can get that kind of talent on the Raptors so Bosh can resume garbage-man duties while others do the heavy lifting but that ain’t happening.
I’m not emotionally attached to Bargnani either. He played well last year and deserves a second chance, but you get an All-Star quality player or a combo of good players/picks, I say do it. Nobody on this team is untouchable – nobody!
well, except for pops…GET HIM SIGNED NOW!! WHATEVER IT TAKES!!
HE IS THE FUTURE!!!!!!
ok, i’ve gotta get out of here…what a long week.
wow,encouraging words from bosh.have a massive year in your contract season while holding management and fans hostage ala tracy mcgrady.shall we hold signs and placards up all season with lame”come back bosh”pleas like we did with tmac?…he isnt on wades or lebrons level that he can do this crap to us,hes not near that good,hes delusional….what?, he’ll try have a massive year and finagle his way to a max contract. how many ballers have we seen do this? play real good,never make a true difference,go off on the final year of their deal and get a max contract and be an albatross to his club for seasons to come…..were getting played. this guy is a business man first,a quasi-celeb second, and a baller last.
Go off in his final year. He’s been going off 4 straight years.
u dumb bitch, i guess u didnt read the part where i said,”play real good but never really make a difference”….i guess getting shut down by every upper echelon pf/c and the occasional getting owned by ponytail guy and miki moore in the playoffs is worth max…..this guy is a salesman,and you idiots are the equivalent of the brainwashed public buying a flowbee off an infomercial…the flowbee made millions as well.
If I were in charge, I would make an all-in move and offer everything but Bosh for Chris Paul from the cash-strapped Hornets. They would have to think really hard about Calderon, Bargnani and the #9th for Paul and Tyson Chandler’s contract….they get three assets under control for at least 2 more years each, and then buy a first round pick in the late teens/early twenties.
Your new look Raps:
PG Paul, Ukic
SG re-signed AP + acquired 1st pick (one of Budinger, Terrance Williams, Sam Young or Gerald Henderson would slip)
SF Marion + Kapono
PF Bosh + Hump
C Chandler + McDyess (platoon to keep both alive)
Bench: Jawai or POB, Pops, Banks
Assumptions: Putting Chris Paul and Chris Bosh along with a skilled MLE player (in this case it’s Marion, but it could be a Ben Gordon) together brings the cheap vets in who say they want to win – AP re-signs, McDyess as well…
your 9 man rotation is:
Paul, Parker, Marion, Bosh, Chandler, McDyess, Ukic, Rookie, Kapono
I’d roll the dice with that team. Much like Utah, it would never be the best team in the conference but would be dangerous enough if the match ups aligned to win a title.
Bosh has had trash to work with all these years? Right, so it’s all on our team not on Bosh. So it’s the teams fault that Bosh can’t play any defense or have any post moves I guess? LOL. He gets shut down by every power forward in the League since he was drafted. That’s his teams fault too right? We give him Ford/Calderon, Rafer Alston, Villanueva, Marion, Vince Carter and that’s not good enough I guess.
If he can’t even make the playoffs with marginal talent around him then what makes you assume we will win with even better players? What happened with better players in 2007? He got shut down by Mikki Moore and Trenton Hassell. That series was all on Bosh no one else and he blew it.
bosh has nothing
Calderon is absolute trash. he gives up 30 a night, can’t penatrate and lead a big to an open dunk.There is no worse defender in the league that starts
Bargnani averages 5 rebounds a game in over 30 minutes a night. he’s a center, he guards the post, maybe he could grab a rebound. 30 ppg might compensate for such lowsy rebounding
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