I’ve had the pleasure of trading some tweets/emails with Chris Denker, Managing Partner at NetScouts Basketball. Chris has a wealth of experience in the basketball industry accumulating over 22 years as a coach, scout, advance scout, video editor, clinician, consultant, writer, and administrator. Chris Denker is a 14 year veteran of NCAA Division I basketball coaching. He was a highly successful Head Coach of the Santa Clara University and Colorado State University women’s teams. In five seasons as Head Coach he amassed 96 wins and his teams reached post-season tournaments in four of those five seasons including one NIT Final Four. He was part of 5 WCC championships in 9 seasons with Santa Clara.
Up until the draft, we are going to talk to Chris about college hoops, top prospects, international players, who the Raptors should be targeting, and why NetScouts should be retained by Colangelo to shore up our scouting. Part 1 after the jump:
Q. What do you look for in a player that other scouts may not?
A. I can’t speak for other scouts but one thing I look for is results. What did they get done? A guy may look good in a uniform and run and jump well but never gets a rebound and is a low percentage shooter. I would prefer the guy who has shown he’ll produce for you. The best explanation of this is the NFL Combine and NBA Pre-Draft Camp where guys are tested on their physical abilities. Look at mock drafts before these events and then after and notice how some guy who jumped out of the gym is now a lottery pick but before he wasn’t a lock 1st round pick simply because he is an exciting athlete.
Last year Kevin Love and Michael Beasley were VERY similar in their ‘measurable’ scores such as 3/4 court sprint, cone drill, etc. Prior to that event everyone thought Love was too slow and not athletic enough to play. Another example is a guy like Josh Howard who slid to the 29th pick of the draft after being the 2003 ACC Player of the Year! I guess 28 teams decided to ignore what he did night in and night out in the ACC, “he’s ‘only’ 6′6 (but has very long arms) and not overly strong or quick” so he slid down the draft board. He’s since become an All-Star and played on a good Dallas team who regularly makes the playoffs.
In this years draft there are several guys who fit this label such as Ty Hansbrough, Dajuan Blair, and Sam Young. I’ll be curious to see where they go.
Sam Young - Slept on/ready to step up?
Q. What is the toughest position to scout for?
A. I think the Center position is the toughest because automatically we all love that size. Get the 7′0 franchise center for your organization! Well, not many big men have panned out lately. Although he’s coming off injury and just completed his official Rookie season, Greg Oden is a great example for this question. He has not performed to the ability it appeared he had coming out of Ohio State and a lot of people are starting to question just how good he’ll end up being. So he is replaced by Kosta Koufas at Ohio State, a skilled big man who also comes out early and is selected by the Jazz. He spends his entire year either on the bench or in the NBA Developmental League. Now the third young big man from Ohio State, BJ Mullins, is coming out early and being projected as a late lottery to mid-first round pick. This guy didn’t even start at Ohio State and his numbers pale in comparison to the other two.
Perhaps someone will take him, develop him and he becomes the best of the 3 but I think that is what makes evaluating the Big Men the toughest for scouts.
Q. The Raptors need a 2/3 that can defend and score from the perimeter, who should they be targeting?
A. If the Raptors are looking for a 2/3 that can defend and score from the perimeter, they can go a couple ways. Do they want an Combo-Guard/Shooter type who can also play some point or do they want more size in a Small Forward/Wing type guy who might be able to slide over to the two spot as well? Or will they simply take the ‘Best Available Player’ on the board? Once they make those decisions I think it’s important to look at the option of trading up to get their guy or going 2 for 1 and trading down. If the position is deep or the guy you want may be available later and you can get another value pick or player for the 9th, trade it! The Spurs & Blazers have made a killing doing this type of thing over the past few years.
Specifically they’ll be looking at:
- James Harden, 6′5 218 SG, Arizona State (Lefty, scorer, would probably need to trade up)
- DeMar DeRozen, 6′7 200 SF/SG, USC (only 19 years old, up and down year at USC)
- Chase Budinger, 6′7 218 SF/SG, Arizona (Shooter, good athlete)
- Sam Young, 6′6 215 SF, Pitt (Tough, proven All-Big East performer)
- Gerald Henderson, 6′5 215 SG, Duke (Great Leaper, father was NBA Player)
- Terrance Williams, 6′6 220 SG, Louisville (Multi-Skilled, Best Passer of group)
- Tyreke Evans, 6′5 195 SG, Memphis (only 19 years old, streak shooter)
If they did want to consider a Combo Guard type of player they’d also look at:
- Stephen Curry, 6′3 185 Guard, Davidson (Best Shooter in the draft?)
- Jrue Holiday, 6′4 195 SG/PG, UCLA (18 years old, athletic defender, shaky season at UCLA)
If it were me, with the depth available, they may consider trading down and still coming away with Young, Henderson, or Williams and another player or pick.
Demar DeRozan - A few more years?
Q. Are you suggesting that the drop off from a DeMar DeRozan to a Sam Young (or one of the other guys) isn’t that steep? Is it a matter of that player needing to be in a certain situation to shine, or their ability/skill level that makes you say that?
A. Yes, it depends on how they have guys ranked and who they feel can help them, and if two guys are very close. But the consensus is that one is going very high, drop and take the other and get a second rd. pick or a vet player in the exchange. As an example, I for one, really like Sam Young and think DeRozan (although highly athletic) is a few years away. If I’m a team like the Raptors who went from playoffs to out, I must feel like I’m only a player or two away from challenging again, and can I wait on a young guy to develop? Take for example Courtney Lee of the Magic, he is a guy who played college ball, learned and developed, then found a role with a good team like Orlando shooting open 3’s when teams double Howard and playing tough defense. Sam Young, Terrance Williams, and Gerald Henderson could fill a similar role whereas I think DeRozan needs physical strength and maturity but could eventually be better than all of them. The question is, do the Raptors want to wait for that to happen?
Q. Lakers or Magic?
A. I’m not in the prediction business but I think you have to consider the Lakers the favorite with Kobe and they have home court.
Gasol & Bynum will be key to the LA attack as Howard has had occasional foul issues. If LA can get good defensive play from their role guys like Walton, Ariza, & Vujacic, and Lamar Odom they could wear down the Magic.
I like the Magic, I like how they play and think Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu have been terrific so from a fan perspective that is who I’ll be rooting for.
Smart pick? Lakers in 6.
If you have any questions you want Chris to answer, post them in the comments or drop me an email (rapsfan [at] raptorsrepublic [.] com). We are working on a few posts from now until the draft, so we will do our best to get them all answered.
Chris is active on Twitter, and one of the folks I enjoy following, you can catch him at @chrisdenker and @netscouts.
We’re active too, check us out: @raptorsrepublic @altraps @arsenalist @rapsfan
120 Raps
excellent work….
Wonder how the (shout out) tribal honkers would feel if BC traded down.
Chris makes great points. I never even considered trading down to get a Sam Young and something else. I’m interested to hear others reactions too.
Raps Fan,
The Raptors trading down in this particular draft has been recommended for quite some time.
There are solid players going in the latter part of the 1st Round, or in in some cases even in the 2nd Round, who will be every bit as good, and possibly better, than some of the players being discussed at present as likely high-middle first-rounders.
I agree, in all fairness, I haven’t gotten knee deep in the draft. I’ve heard buying another pick, but not trading down. Could be a good opportunity to unload Kapono in the process (Kapono + 9th pick to a contender needing some 3 point shooting and a later 1st rounder).
good luck.
*crosses fingers*
hmm interesting post. If we were to draft derozan, it likely we’d start him right away… if he isn’t ready, that could hurt his development more than help.
I think we’ve heard of the Raptors wanting to buy an additional late 1st rounder but going 2 for 1 by trading their pick for a veteran plus a good proven college player ala Terrance Williams or Sam Young is an interesting proposition also. I never thought about it cause we’d have 2 new wings plus supposedly marion, delfino, parker and kapono judging by the Colangelo comments.
If we go 2 for 1, who do we find as a good vet at the 2-3 to give us starter minutes alongside marion? Or is this a proposition just in case we don’t sign marion?
I’d prefer to go 2-1 by trading our pick for a vet back-up point guard or big man plus a wing late 1st rounder.
Anothe option that was mentioned is packaging the #9 pick with a bad contract (JK, Banks) for one lower pick and a better contract.
The purpose of this particular option would be to cut future costs and acquire cap flexibility. This option isn’t presently necessary of the Raps, but it definitely is for other teams.
Options, options.
Addition by subtration
Keep the #9, draft best available player.
Try and buy one of Minny’s picks (#18) I believe, and select Tyler Hansborough, or a point guard.
The starting 2 that we desperately need, can be bought(FA) or through trading.
I don’t think trading down is a good option. . . Yes Derozan they say is raw but did you guys see him near the end of the season? He looked like he was in college for a long time! The man showed composure. . . And I think if we draft we do it right and also pick based on potential. . . If anything Id stay where I am, if Harden, Derozan, or Evans are gone? then id trade up for one of these guys. . . Why not? after two GMs don’t see a big difference between 2-12. . . If anything raps can pay a little and move up. . . Whats scary is that if we pass on any of these three we’ll be kicking ourselves in the foot again! Sam young good player he’s 24. . . We can’t base this draft pick based on Bosh, we gotta base it on the merits of a bright future for the raps! Did anyone here about Evans wingspan? the guys a freak of nature. . . He beat D wade just a bit to have the biggest wingspan for a SG. . . But other things must go according to plans as well. . . We must try our best to sign anthony parker! he’ll be the key in developing these guys and plus a good back up. . . As for the second pick. . . We better use Jason Kapono and Joey Gram to move up buy our way higher. . .May be if we get 14-18 we can target a holiday or a flynn . . . I know it’s a little outta the reach but we can always buy ourselves a higher pick by trading picks with other teams! raps need this!
I’m almost saddened to hear that someone would pass on a player who has a good chance to not only be better, but a lot better in favor of picking a more NBA ready player.
For instance, I take a players willingness to learn and development curve, along with their current age and production as should anyone evaluating talent.
For instance, at this point, Williams is a lock to go in the first round (probably mid teens). Had he come out when DeRozan had, he’d have been lucky to be a second rounder, and would likely have been drafted on potential at maybe 45-50. So… that said, after 4 years and some improvements, a greater role, and being a senior, he puts up marginal numbers which still aren’t better than the one’s a freshman DeRozan put up when he finally started to hit his stride late in the season.
DeRozan by all accounts is a better scorer, seems to want to learn how to play defense, and has better physical tools than any wing in this draft. Even Evans with his super freak-arms is not as physically impressive or explosive in my opinion.
So, if you eventually determine that DeRozan isn’t a knuckle-head and is willing to put in the work, is the 8th seed or 7th seed, or worse, 35-37 wins if they trade Bosh for young players REALLY worth passing on a guy who’s 2 years away to get a guy who is at best marginally better?
I think players like Gerald Green, Quintel Woods and other high potential swingmen have shown that its critical to evaluate where a young swingman’s head is actually at before drafting him. DeRozan, whom I have met and listened to countless times is one of the better kids in this draft, seems to be determined to get better, obviously loves the game… why would he not be the obvious pick if he slips to 9?
You make a valid point Robert. Trading down and passing on DeRozan would be more of a strategic move to strengthen the Raptors wing position, which is in dire straights, then a commentary on his skill level.
For me, taking DeRozan doesn’t fully improve the depth at wing. The Raptors would still have to get another guy (after bringing back Delfino), and with Kapono and Banks eating up $12mill, it’s hard to justify spending that much more to bring another 2/3 when the backup point is also a black hole at the moment.
khan wasn’t the only one who picked ‘d’ in that poll…
trading down, though, is difficult, since what the raps would be trying to accomplish is pick up ’something’ (an extra pick or player) in exchange for another team picking up our garbage, all for the luxury of picking 9th in a draft that really doesn’t have many bona fide ‘known’ difference makers outside of the top-2. i’m thinking that there may be quite a few teams late in the lottery who would like to move down, and who will more than likely have more attractive bait to offer than the raps pu pu platter (9th pick & banks/kapono/hump?, etc.).
for me, i’d like to see them trade down into the mid-late teens, unload a contract, pick up late 1st/early 2nd rounder, and buy another 1st rounder in the early 20’s. with the first pick (say, around 15-17), if clark stays on the board, then grab him (i’m assuming derozan, evans are already gone). if clark is gone, look at blair, henderson, williams. with the purchased 1st rounder, look at a guy like young, lawal, hansbrough, maynor, teague or lawson. with the 2nd rounder, if any of those targeted guys slip, grab ‘em there (or if someone like budinger or mills slip; or calathes, if he lasts that long, then stash him overseas for a year or two).
Or trade the #9 this year for a 1st rounder next year and buy into the 15-25 range. And take Henderson if at all possible with the later pick since he strikes me as the most likely Courtney Lee type player.
Sam Young might look good but he fits exactly into the mold of a Joey Graham and we know how that turned out. There’s potential for bust there.
Trading down is extremely risky if you’re targeting a player because you don’t know for sure whether somebody will snatch him before your pick. I’d rather the Raptors “reach” for that player with the ninth pick as long as they’re sure about his abilities or, more preferably, just buy another pick since we supposedly have the cash.
If Evans and DeRozan are both gone by 9, I can’t say I’d be terribly disappointed with the Raptors just taking Henderson there. DraftExpress has a decent history and they say Henderson’s ceiling is Michael Finley and his floor is Anthony Parker. If that’s right, he might even be worth taking over DeRozan or Evans who have a higher ceiling but lower floor.
But as this Q&A says, it depends if the Raps think they can win now or are building for the future (yet again)
That’s the key. And I agree with Arsenalist that trading down is risky. There is always potential for bust. I think taking a wing in the late teens always carries that risk. However, I haven’t seen Sam Young enough to comment on him.
the biggest downside w/ young is that he’s old. he’ll slide because his ‘upside potential’ is fairly low, and because he wasn’t spectacular in college. the flipside is that he’s probably more ‘ready’ to contribute right away; he’s an excellent defender & good all-around athlete…and in the late teens/early-mid 20’s, would be a good pick-up. like i said below, ‘bust’ doesn’t really come into play once you get outside the lottery, unless you REALLY reach for a guy, and essentially pass over a known quantity. the examples like graham are exacerbated by who is picked after them…even if he was picked 30th, if granger is picked 31, it’s still crappy, not because of where graham was picked, but because there was someone else better available.
That’s only a downside if the intention is developing and keeping players for 6+ years. Colangelo has shown no interest in that so far with the contracts he has doled out. All 3-4 year terms. Which would put Young at 28 or so, well within his prime.
Totally agree on the bust scenario you describe, Sam Young shouldn’t be taken for the soul purpose of getting a wing, he should selected because he is the best player at that spot. If I had a vote, I would always grab the best player available instead of draft for need. Assets are crucial.
I’m a Big East guy. Sam Young is money. He’d be a great addition if picked in the 20’s.
I agree that priority is always getting the best talent/asset but you still have to avoid situations like having 6 PF’s (like we would have if we get Blair, Lawal etc).
The problem with drafting the “best available” is that assumption of talent is largely made based on the consensus. That strategy can too backfire – see Charlotte drafting DJ Augustine instead of Brook Lopez last fall (even if Lopez wasnt a ROY candidate the pick was full of questionmarks based on their huge lack of post offense).
if evans & derozan are gone, trading down (even if it’s just for later future pick) & pick up a clark or henderson should be the goal.
once you get into the late teens/20’s & 2nd round, the term ‘bust’ goes out the window – they’re all pretty much crapshoots at that point, no? if sam young gets picked 25th, and turns out to be a marginal NBAer (or less), will anyone be overly shocked? of course not, ’cause that’s how things tend to go. look back over the last 10 draft years…the number of guys picked in that range (high teens/20’s/2nd round) who wash out, are marginal impact players at best, or never play a minute in the L far exceeds the number of guys who are actual contributors. for every late(r) pick that turns into something, there are 10 who amount to squat.
agree re. trading down, it’s risky, but with this draft, there seem to be multiple players who all seem to fit into the same general level of abilities and/or potential. for example, today, it’s tough to discern who amongst teague, lawson, curry, flynn, calathes or mills (or someone else) will establish themselves as bona fide NBA points. certainly not all of them will be, but more than likely, 2 or 3 will. if you have a pick between 8 & 20, there’s a high probability that at least 2-3 of those guys will be available. if you’re looking to draft a point, and have, say, the 10th pick you’ll obviously rank them in terms of who you’d pick first, if available. assuming rubio, jennings & evans are off the board by the 8th pick (as is expected), and you haven’t been able to move up to take either of those 3, then you have a choice of roughly 4-6 PGs to choose from, all of whom could pan out…or not. so, given that, you either move away from picking for need & just take the ‘best’ guy available, or you try to trade down, acquire other assets, and still be able to take one of your targeted guys later.
I doubt unloading a contract by trading down will do anything. Whos gonna take a 6 mil/yr kapono bust contract(which was surprinsingly suggested above), to go up a couple draft spots.Barely any teams have that kind of money, and for the few that do, theyre not gonna waste that money on an overpaid kapono.
that’s why it’s so hard…more than likely, moving down will not yield the removal of a banks or kapono; rather, a swap of the 9th pick for, say, the 15th & a 2nd rounder will be all that can be hoped for. the perfect scenario is you find a team that’s desperate for player X & is willing to take on a contract in order to move up.
It was more wishful thinking. But Kapono has some value as a dead eye shooter to a contending team who needs perimeter shooting, maybe the Spurs (just putting it out there, I’m sure Buford wouldn’t trade for Kapono). We could take back someone who has an equal contract, but may fill a need. That was the suggestion, should have been clearer earlier.
As I’ve been saying, draft Derozan or Evans (or at worst Henderson) at #9 and attempt to buy another pick in the 20’s to grab a guy like Young or Williams or Buddinger, or a back up PG like Mills. That will cover at least some of our needs at 1-2-3.
Also, I’d just like to say that just because Joey G isn’t a superstar, that doesn’t mean we have to forever avoid drafting marginal “tough”, “athletic” wing players.
Agreed. Derozan or Evans.
Completely agree, re: Joey. Great point.
Ya people always bash Joey, and much is warrented. But if Granger weren’t draft after him I doubt that criticism would be as great. I’m not sure of the numbers but I’d wager Joey’s career to date is about average for a 16th pick. His inconsistency and inability to live up to his physical potentian not withstanding.
Just because Joey hasn’t lived up to our dreams, that doesn’t mean some other decent college SF in his “mould” won’t do well for us in the future. There are MoPete’s out there and there are JoeyG’s out there….and they are much much worse.
I’m somewhat curious to see how Joey will fare on another team (next season?). I expect the same production, but I’m hoping to be surprised.
I agree 100% RYE. The reason he gets bashed so much is that Granger and a few other better players went right after him. F*cking Babcock…
Babcock also made a semi-brilliant move in picking up Charlie V at #7 of the same draft. People forget that the “consensus” talking heads dictated they should have take Joey at #7 and Villanueva at #16. The thing’s a crapshoot.
Another scenario is trading #9 to a team with two lower first round picks IF… we’re unable to buy a second first round pick from another team.
Yup. Bottom line is that we need at least 2 picks in this draft. And if there is a decent opportunity out there to unload Kapono or Banks, that would be a success as well.
While I have no problem with trading down if Evans and Derozan are both gone, I think the idea that we should be looking for a “Courtney Lee type player” is a little off base. Don’t get me wrong, I love Courtney Lee, I think he’s going to be a real nice player and you need players like that to be successful.
But the Magic already had a franchise player (Howard), a go to offensive threat (Lewis), an all star point guard (Nelson), and a solid number two offensive option (Turkoglu). They were coming off a second round playoff loss, and didn’t really need much, so Lee was a nice addition for them.
But what is Courtney Lee type player going to do for the Raps right now? Eventually develop into a decent 3rd option? This team needs help now, and with all of the uncertainty surrounding Bosh, we need to pick up a player that at least has a chance at becoming a superstar. Even if that guy isn’t going to contribute as much as a Courtney Lee type player immediately, he’ll at least have the chance of becoming a big time player for us. Guys like Evans and Derozan, it would seem, have a much better chance at becoming stars than guys like Sam Young.
The little pieces don’t mean much if the big pieces aren’t in place. And right now this team still needs a big piece, maybe multiple big pieces depending on what happens with Bosh. If Evans or Derozan is available, I think BC has to swing for the fences with this one.
I don’t think Chris meant Courtney Lee per sey, but someome like Lee who does some very specific things for a team that wins you games.
The risk of trading down if Evans and DeRozan are available is big, but Colangelo likes to play russian roulette, so I wouldn’t put it past him.
Yeah, and I really don’t think that’s what we need.
The Raptors, as currently constructed, are not close to being competitive. A player that does very specific things can make a good team into a great team, like Lee has helped do with the Magic, because good teams have small deficiencies that can be addressed by a player like that. They cannot, however, turn a bad team into a good team, because bad teams (like Toronto) have problems far too large to be addressed by a shooter, or a defensive specialist, or a shot blocker, etc. etc. We need a guy who can make a big difference a couple years down the line. Evans or Derozan could be that guy. Sam Young (and other like players) are far, far less likely to be.
all true. so, the goal would be to get a guy with big-time upside, as well as someone who may have less potential (i.e. lower ceiling), but who is also a lower risk (i.e. lower floor).
YES!
I completely agree with your comment, but again it all depends on whether the Raptors are into win-now mode.
You would tell me that if we had a healthy line-up of Calderon, Marion, Bosh, Bargnani since training camp, a player like Courtney Lee wouldn’t be desireable?
If we have that kind of offensive power in four ‘veteran’ starters (u know Marion needs his touches), than we would be needy of just that young, athletic, good shooter who spreads the floor for your bigs and does the other things well defensively to help the team, which Parker cannot do at this point in his career.
By the way, it would be extremely hard for the Raptors to find a cheap veteran with Parker’s offensive skills but with better defensive quicks, unless they find a gem in the draft like Lee.
It looks that players like Derozan and Evans would just come to the Raptors with the intention of jacking up shots and kicking Bosh out of town, while proving management they deserve to be go-to guys for the franchise. I like em but don’t trust em. Hope Bryan works out a miracle.
sam young is joey graham 2.0 two point zero. do we really need another joey?
its derozan and if not him, then evans. other then that you go best player available at any position with the 9th
There are a lot of variables to this year’s draft, and they’re most affected by the Bosh situation. If the best guy is a power forward (or who can play the Centre position .. assuming Bargs moves to the 4), do we pick him?
Do we fashion our position (going forward) hoping to “appease” Bosh, with ready made NBAers? Or do we try to form a team that develops rookie potential, and whatever happens with Bosh, happens?
As for the poll (about Bosh), why is there not a “Let him walk” option? No one seems to believe that this option might be the best. And yeah, it might be the worse choice too, but I keep wondering about what we’ll get back in a sign and trade, or just a trade. Whenever I read other team’s blog sites, they mention giving up a prospect (reluctantly), along with “filler” contracts to make the numbers work. Personally, I’m tired of getting back crap (like Banks). Why saddle ourselves with junk — do we not have enough with Banks & Kapono?
Is Bosh’s 17 million (off the cap in 2010), enough to sign some free agents, or make a trade with a team over the Cap?
One other thing about the thought of giving Bosh a 6 year $130 million contract.
If we do, we’re f**ked. Maybe not next year, but eventually it’ll catch up to us …. and I’m thinking bad knees, when I say that.
Giving Bosh a Max Deal: Are we screwed, or are we on our way to the Finals?
Most of us in the Raps fan community said (mocked!) the Magic would be doomed to suffer years of failure when they signed Rahsaard Lewis to a max deal in the summer of 2007. 2 years later, Lewis and the Magic are in the Finals.
But next year they need to let go of a better player in Turkoglu (or face heavy luxury tax payments). These finals are their only window for a championship in the forseeable future…
But who would come to a raptors team in 2010 when their best player Bargs. The Let him walk option is easily the worst.
Babyface,
With a load of space (in 2010), we can trade guys like Kapono and Banks and not match up salaries — at least that’s how my numbers work. By then, we hope Bargs makes another step up — I believe he has that chance, more so then I believe Bosh can go one more level. And if we grab a decent draft pick at the 9 spot, he has one year to mature — not like the fire that Ukic was thrown into – (Jose going down + Smitchoaching)
We can trade for teams wanting to unload a good power forward (good numbers & maybe a high salary — but nowhere near as much as Bosh numbers), get a decent 2 and 3 on the free agent market — guys who have good numbers, but are second fiddles to the star in front of them.
If we take back salaries that go beyond 2010, we limit our ability to make those trade moves and free agent signings. I would rather hack out the year, and watch some development … maybe a 7th or 8th seeding … and pounce on 2010. In that “Lebron Sweepstakes”, I say let the big guys go – they’ll suck up all the “equity” positions (cap space), while some teams will be sucking in their belts, riding out the economic storm. The others will be feasting on left overs — which in this case (or year) will be more then a meal.
The “take back salaries that go beyond 2010″, is in reference to a Bosh sign and trade.
And that perception would be based on one assumption — we’re not in a perfect world, one that says we’ll get back 100 % for Bosh, on any sign & trade. Or anywhere close to that.
If we do that I would rather get a Centre via trade dump-off (Move Bargs to the 4) and try to make a run at the 2nd or 3rd tier free agent (2/3). I personaly don’t want to go through the hell of the media circus of “Will Bosh leave or not”.
I still think if G-state brings back the previous offer take but I think I’m warming up to your idea of waiting until 2010. Even though I think its time to trade Bosh maybe letting walk might be okay (but it would be a PR disaster).
I agree on the Centre idea (and moving Bargs to the 4). Can we get a 10 pt 12 rebound Centre? Or is that enough. And what’s the cost.
Can we have our starter 1,4 & 5, making a combined 28 – 30 mil in 2010? That’s allowing 10 – 12 million for a Centre. With Bosh it would have meant 30 mil for just him and Andrea.
Whatever the best course of action is for the Raptors, the problem will always be fitting a CBA into the imperfect world of talent sizing. Makes me think the best GM is a chartered accountant who loves the game of basketball. And how it’s played.
It’s the whole perception of “swinging for the fences” which needs to be avoided in this draft … given the position the Raptors find themselves in, at the moment … in a similar way to what was observed by some last summer, when Bryan Colangelo made the MISTAKE of trading Ford + Nesterovic + Baston + No. 17/2008 for O’Neal + No. 41/2008.
You were warned, in advance, that that specific move would FAIL to improve the situation for the Raptors going forward. That specific advice was sound at the time … despite many others not being prepared to acknowledge it.
Trading down is the best way to go forward for the Raptors, at the moment, given the circumstances their team is in, overall.
Somewhat reluctantly … I am going to give a name of a player who, IMO, could be a small add … i.e. the OPPOSITE of “swinging for the fences” type of player … that would benefit the Raptors tremendously, in their efforts to climb the ladder in the EC, bit by bit, and might be available in the lower part of the 1st Round, or in all likelihood still be available in the 2nd Round.
If he’d come out with last year’s class, Danny Green, would and should have been a quality Wing player for the Raptors to consider as a solid add to their roster. What spot he’s available at is inconsequential. Danny Green … in a similar but, of course, slightly different way to someone like Chris Douglas-Roberts … is going to be a solid pro’s pro for years to come.
Danny Green’s situation is NO DIFFERENT in this year’s draft class.
Danny Green is one example of the type of player who the Raptors SHOULD be looking to add to the foundation combination of Chris Bosh [C] and Jose Calderon [PG].
It’s in the process of adding a player like Danny Green that the Raptors SHOULD, then, also be able to add at least one more solid player via this year’s draft … i.e. either another pick or a veteran player … to improve their Quality Depth, overall.
Bringing back a player like Carlos Delfino is nothing but a waste of time.
First of all, I meant swinging for the fences with the pick, not with a trade. As in, picking a player with superstar potential, rather than trading down for guys that have solid potential.
It seems everyone agrees this team isn’t going anywhere with Chris Bosh as its only star, so why is everyone against the notion of trying to add another potential star through the draft? How else are you planning to build a championship contender? Attracting our first star free agent?
Trading down to add a vet and a mid first rounder, or two mid/late first rounders or whatever doesn’t change the make up of this team very much. If BC does that, and then ends up either letting Bosh walk or trading him for less than equal value, what are we left with? Andrea, Calderon, and some role players. If Bosh stays, we have to hope that Andrea or one of these rookies develops to the point that they can really help Bosh shoulder the load. Neither of those scenarios is particularly exciting to me.
I’m not in agreement with trading down as the best option. Keeping the pick at #9, drafting someone with star-ish upside, and buying a later pick to draft a potentially solid pro is the way to go in my opinion.
given the current economic situation facing most small markets MLSE should give BC the green light to BUY! BUY! BUY!
TM Williamson,
Trading down is the best option for those who think that players like DeRozan and Evans, etc., although highly talented in their own right are NOT the calibre of player likely to develop into a “superstar”, at the NBA level, as they continue to mature through their 20’s.
i.e. Those players are not the calibre of Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, Julius Erving, Clyde Drexler, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Brandon Roy, etc.
TM Williamson,
IMO, “trading down” should be done in conjunction with trading Andrea Bargnani, to address the concerns you’re raising.
FYI
The only sense in trading Andrea (and I’m really searching here) is if BC believes that he’s reached his professional peak as a player and that it’s all downhill from here.
We’re talking about trying to get a guy with potential in the draft but you’re advocating trading a guy with potential. Doesn’t make sense. I understand you hate him, hate his rebounding ability, his defensive work, his mom and his niece but don’t forget that he could really open up our offense if he finds a consistent gear.
We saw last year when he could bring to the team from an offensive standpoint when he’s got his shit together, I don’t want to give up on that. At least not yet. Is his D great? Man to man, yes. Otherwise, no, he sucks at rotations and is a step too late in responsibility recognition but he made great strides last year and I want to give him a chance to make more before deciding that his ceiling is too low to invest time in.
Well put.
Arsenalist,
1. Hate has nothing to do with it. It’s strictly business.
2. Waiting for a ONE-way player to develop his Defensive and Rebounding skills, in the NBA, is a waste of time … if your goal is to eventually win a championship.
“Star” players are almost always multi-dimensional players, who compete in each phase of the game, right from the get go.
If they have a short-coming in a specific aspect of the game it is usually in the Offensive segment … not in terms of Rebounding & Defense.
The world is full of such individuals willing to wait and wait and wait for an offensively skilled player, like Bargnani, to fulfil his supposed “potential”, one day down-the-road. On the other hand, it’s the isolated against-the-grain ones, who know implicitly not to waste their time & resources on a player like THAT, in an effort to build a championship contender.
These are the individuals and the organizations that walk away with the trophy year after year.
Rashard F’ing Lewis is a poor defensive player who plays decent team defense for the Orlando Magic. Defence can most certainly be taught. Lots of players from marginally talented to superstars like Lebron learn to play defence better over time.
As for Lewis being one-dimentional, the Magic gave him a max deal and are now in the Finals.
IMO, Rashard Lewis is a poor example for you to use, in this instance.
A. Rashard cut his teeth in Seattle and was then acquired by Orlando, as an UFA.
[what you're talking about with Bargnani, from the Raptors' perspective, is possibly keeping him on the ledger for the next 5-10 years, at a hefty price-tag ... not developing him and then letting him go courtesy of free agency]
B. Rashard is not really a poor Defensive Player & Rebounder, at specific the positions he plays: i. Big SF; and, ii. Small PF.
In fact, adequate defense at multiple positions, and the ability to play without excessive fouling, and the ability to rebound effectively [not great but not horrendously poor], are strengths of Mr. Lewis, when combined together.
Big SF? You mean a 3.5? Just like Bosh is a 4.5?
BC could trade Bargnani and get a nice return. It won’t happen while Bosh’s status is unknown unless the trade is for another big. Imagine 2010 – Pops and O’Bryant starting at 4 and 5 after Bosh walks…
The Angels John Lackey is pitching a solid game for 6+ innings.
The Blue Jays have just loaded the bases with none out, trailing 1-5.
Should the Angels manager take him out, or not?
Fielder’s choice, out at 1st base … runners advance to 2nd and 3rd.
1 run scores.
Alex Rios at-bat, 2 away in the inning.
Should the Angels take hime out?
Replace “Andrea” with “Bosh”…
Yup Green would easily be worth a look as a 2nd rounder.
Pity the draft pick rookie being thrown into the current Ratpor roster of miscreants. The Ratpors are pregnant and ready to be blown up and reborn.
This year’s draft reminds me a lot of the 2002 NBA draft. With the exception of the first pick, the most successful players will be dispersed throughout the draft.
At #9 if Jrue Holiday is gone, instead of DeRozan or Curry, the Raps should take a look at B.J. Mullins.
No one expects Mullins to go high because of his lackluster college experience and also because there’s a recently developed stigma around former OSU centers. BJ Mullins is expected go much lower but I suspect that might be a smokescreen. The guy is not the best rebounder. Might pick up more than few fouls on D. But he’s a great presence in and outside the paint. I think he’s has huge offensive potential, and that’s what will make him as an NBA player. If he can become an average NBA defender, he’ll be in the league a long time.
i see mullens as more of a project, slowly developing over the course of 3-5 years into an average contributor. he really does need another year or two at the college level. to me, a guy picked in the top-10 should at least be able to contribute positively his rookie year. i don’t see a positive contribution from him for a few years (if ever).
Marco Scutaro just popped out. 1 away in the inning.
Should the Angels take him out?
Lackey strikes Rios out on a check swing.
End of 7, Angels leading 5-2.
Depending on what transpires in the top of the 8th … should the Angels take him?
Or, should they trot Lackey out to start the bottom of the 8th inning?
ask people at bluejaysrepublic!
Thoroughly dissapointing conclusion to that game.
Lind is on fire though.
It’s always a judgment call when exactly to remove a starting pitcher from a baseball game.
When that pitcher is a solid vet like John Lackey, who has cut his teeth in the Big Leagues … it’s a much easier decision to make.
However, when that pitcher is an Andy Benes/Ben McDonald type, with a world of “potential” but someone who has difficulty establishing himself as a full-fledged “star” early in his career, without the hinderance of a serious injury … befitting the status/performance of a former No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick … then that’s a much trickier decision to make.
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Trading Andrea Bargnani, 3 years into his pro career, doesn’t mean that he has already hit his high water mark, and should not be expected to improve any further from this point forward. All it means is that he was ONE asset who was traded for ANOTHER whose upside might be viewed as being even better than Bargnani’s, from a Raptors’ perspective, or whose time in the spotlight is at-hand shortly, as a better overall fit with the other [short?] list of assets the Dinos have at present.
e.g. Might Sam Presti have any interest in making the following trade? … http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pg3z3b
If he might, that’s the type of transaction which the Raptors could consider moving forward, as the starting point for a possible move involving Bargnani.
[if Bargnani continues to develop ... it's a deal that might be viewed as helping both teams address their current & future needs]
Trading Bargnani would not require nearly as much back in return to make the deal palatable for the Raptors future … especially, if there’s an additional pick involved as added filler.
i would. BC should. but, IMO, presti wouldn’t.
If the Jays hadn’t scored in the 8th, I’d have suggested trading Bargnani but I now think he should be kept. Thanks for the insight.
+1
Here are my thoughts:
First, i’d like to start off by saying that I think the writers on this particular blog are probably more intelligent than half the people I hear on sportsnet, TSN, or the score…..with that said I have to disagree with some of the comments made over the past few weeks regarding the draft.
For starters, why is everyone convinced that we need to find a wing, and build to the already existing puzzle we have? I feel that everyone is living off the Atlantic Division Champs of 2007. To look back at that year the Raptors were in first in their division which was the WORST NBA DIVISION! This is the year before Boston imploded to obtain Ray Allen, and KG. After 2007 almost all the teams in the Atlantic division got better, let alone the Eastern division bulked up. The raptors have kind of been in this downward slump since IMO. For starters our bench is nothing more than a glorified D-league we need to step it up and re build.
We are not going to keep bosh, there is no way and I only say this because as much as I love Lebron, I feel like he will not stay with the Cavs. Now, with regards to this argument I feel that Lebron and Wade both have way to big of an ego to share the spotlight…however, I feel that Chris Bosh will be willing to take a role player roll and follow 1 of the 2 men. I have said it from day 1 since VC left, Bosh is NOT a franchise player…..I feel like he is like our version of Pippen, he is a great player but on his own he just can’t do it without that big guy there to help him.
So assuming we lose bosh we have to start over. Start by building a proper team, lets get a few prospects this year, if we don’t make play offs next year we draft more young talent we need to build young just like what Portland has done which IMO has worked. We need to get a nice young gritty team and it starts from the draft, forget about getting aging vets and trying to sign them to Toronto….at the end of the day it’s not going to happen our city does not excite people as much as a city like New York, Miami, LA etc… and this can be said for ALL our Toronto teams.
The other problem to this scenario is that the MLSE probably won’t allow the raps to go against the cap and take a lux tax this year, I don’t believe they can afford to have two struggling teams (the leafs & the raps) which is why I feel the raptors are in a better position to draft low take what we can get at 9th, trade players for lower picks and go from there. In reality the two players we can use as “corner stones” are Bargs, and Calderon. I strongly believe both these players are loyal to the franchise and have not fully shown us what they are capable of. Bargs is getting better and with the 4 months of rest Calderon will probably explode next season (provided he has a solid back up PG).
Marion is getting old, to sign him to a max deal is beyond moronic in my opinion he is an aging vet and he needs to go, he will only give us a solid year at best, and a mediocre the next. I’d rather re-sign Pops because he has proven in his two 10 day contracts that he can play a gritty defensive style which we need, and we can probably obtain him for a low cost. Assuming we keep bosh until the trade deadline we can really assess how he feels if he wants to stay he’ll stay if not lets trade him and get a draft pick/prospect.
As far as the draft goes lets get the BEST player and see how they do, and try to build around them if they are good enough. It can be a risk but the Raptors are yet to truly take a “risk” under BC. If Derozen is the best player available @ 9th pick lets get him….provided his draft rights don’t come with a stupid stipulation from Master P forcing us to sign Lil Romeo as well!
That’s a really good post.
You’re right, everything depends on what we decide to do with Bosh: To trade or not to trade, that is the question.
Here’s another angle you missed. Success in the NBA is built on talent, character and athleticism. Bosh is indeed the best second-fidle option since Scottie Pippen. And sure he may walk out on us next summer.
But doesn’t BC have an obligation to put together the best team possible every year? If he receives an offer for Bosh he feels would improve the team, than he has to accept it. But until such an offer is received, next year’s team is better with Bosh – and Shawn Marion.
Marion’s decision to re-sign with the Raps is 100% dependent on whether the team is going to keep Bosh this summer and have him in our locker room for the start of training camp and the regular season.
Together, Bosh and Marion are the best pairing of players we can have on our team to start the season. Add a healthy and rested Calderon, a happy, confident and much improved Bargnani and a better, deeper group of bench players which would include our top-pick (who could potentially become be one of the best players from this draft class) and the Raptors could have a better team than Dwayne Wade’s Miami Heat.
Imagine, the Raps and Heat playing each other in the playoffs. Imagine Bosh and the Raptors beating the Heat. Than, could you imagine Wade leaving Miami the join Bosh in Toronto in order to legitimately be able to beat LBJ and Howard. This is the vision I imagine. And this could be the vision BC imagines.
Whether or not this vision comes true, it has as much chance of happening as someone elses vision.
If we can surround Bosh with a very good team next season, than we could potentially surround him with a great team next summer. A
And what is the biggest criticism about Bosh right now. That he isn’t a superstar and needs to be on a great team. Well, his presence alone is neceesary for a team to be great. So why not build a very good team that includes Bosh in order to attract the missing piece that would make a team with Bosh on it a great one.
Hey man u make some good arguments for different angles but I’m sorry Wade will NOT come to Toronto openly why would he go from beautiful miami to….Toronto. I like Wade to me he is the type of player when needed can carry the team on his back. He will never sign where Bosh is. Bosh is a GOOD player, but a piece to a puzzle and I think deep down he knows it. He’ll sign with 1 of the 2 in 2010.
When it comes down to it I think Chris Bosh realizes that he has the potential to either make a long lasting career as a strong will and hearted player to make max dollars but never succeed and win a championship OR he has the potential to win a few rings and still stay buzz worthy. At the end of the day it may be smarter for him to go to a team with Wade and or lebron win once or twice, then go off and do his own thing….who knows.
But i see your point and while i agree BC needs to bring a competitive team year after year….theres no point in my opinion to build a team to get to the first round of play offs…..Brian Burke (GM FOR THE LEAFS) has said “the day, that i work for an organization that has no intention to win, is the day I quit.” I Fully stand by that statement for all levels of professional sports, I am not saying the raptors need to tank their season, but they don’t need to go out and build us a 7th to 8th seed team in the east only to get knocked out first round. I’d rather be steady, mediocre but growing to a strong willed team.
But seriously, whats with our damn city why can’t we keep legit athletes!
Raptors’ Bosh suggests he’ll opt for free agency
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/645658
OK, now that’s out of the way…
Let’s make a trade as soon as possible… we don’t want to risk him getting injured playing as hard as he can to get a max contract.
Khandor, your hate for Bargs is as strong as Cosa’s hate for Bosh !!!
I wonder where he went?
Hi Shats!!
Yay he’s back!!!!! now we just need nunya…….
Certain mis-guided individuals thought that the Jermaine O’Neal trade was a good one last summer and that those few of us who said publicly that it would set the Raptors’ cause back even further, instead of moving it forward, were “hateful”, or “blind”, or “stupid”, or etc.
Well, 12 months later, the fact is … WE few were Right, while those many mis-guided individuals were WRONG.
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IMO, a similar situation exists in this instance this summer, moving forward with this team.
Most think that Bosh is the player who should be traded.
Few that that Bargnani is the player who should be traded.
Time will tell which ones are Right and which ones are Wrong.
khandor,
I’d be the individual who didn’t like the O’Neil trade at first, but did when he left. And the reason would be Andrea.
I know you’re not a Bargs fan, and to each his own, but I am. Have been seen he joined – nary a negative comment. And I feel more assured of that, every time I hear the difficulties in developing a Centre.
As far as I’m concerned, whether O’Neil had anything to do with AB’s flip of the switch, is irrelevant. Or whether it was the demise of Smitchoaching, I don’t know. All I know, is that Bargs made a significant step in 2009. You may not agree, but I’d think the consensus would beg to differ. And if O’Neil had an impact — then I’m grateful to him. And wish him the best.
While I’m here, I’d like to clarify that I believe we should retain Bosh. Unfortunately (or some might say fortunately), I feel that way at only 16 or 17 mil per. And 4 or 5 years at that. I just don’t see 21.5 per, as right, or healthy for this team.
Get out of the clouds Khan. Bargs will cost a fraction of Bosh.
All eggs contained in one basket break together. Multiple eggs in seperate baskets survive to create life anew.
Great analogy lol. And I agree with you.
Bargs with proper teammates and more seasoning will become an overall better play then Bosh. Bargnani is really misunderstood to be honest. His confidence was shattered early because Sam Mitchell had him on a short leash. Make one mistake and your back on the bench indefinitely. No one can perform under those circumstances whether in sport or in your crappy office Job.
Bargnani will break out next year. He has a better post game, better defender, better shooter from 3, better attitude on the court.
Huge reason why the team disappears against good teams and in 4th quarters is because they see there 133 million man sulking it up and showing a piss poor attitude. The team follows their leader. That needs to change
Our priorities for our draft pick still is aquiring a potential star player. Role players in the NBA are generally overrated. Team chemistry is much more important than talent when it comes to bench roster – I know it sounds blasphemous to say it like that but think of all the bench issues the Lakers are/have been experiencing over the last year or two. They have players coming off the bench that would start in many other situations and yet they have had supreme trouble with secondary/bench scoring all playoffs long. Having a bench like the Rockets may not be nearly as talented but they fit together in their different roles perfectly and compliment their starters much more effectively.
Moral of the story – draft for potential stars or atleast starters – not 3rd or 4th guy off the bench…
Hate has nothing to do with a proposed Bargnani trade.
1. PG – Jose Calderon
2. OG – Kyle Weaver … in exchange for Bargnani
3. SF – Player A … who comes in return for Marion
4. PF – Jeff Green … in exchange for Bargnani
5. C – Chris Bosh
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6. PG – Roko Ukic
7. PG/OG – Anthony Parker
8. OG/SF – Danny Green … Lower 1st Round/2nd Round Draft Pick
9. SF – Joey Graham
10. ? – Player C … draft pick bought for $3.0 M [trade for O'Neal-J]
11. PF – Pops Mensah-Bonsu
12. PF/C – Kris Humphries
13. ? – Player B … draft pick added in Bargnani trade
————————–
Even if trades cannot be made for baggage like Marcus Banks and Jason Kapono, this type of roster still provides the Raptors with a solid nucleus of youngish athletic assets, not cluding Chris Bosh, who may or may not eventually be re-signed sometime in the next 12 months, that are going to be movable in the not-too-distant future, or be able to form the core of a re-building in the EC.
[Quincy Douby, Carlos Delfino, Nathan Jawai, Jake Voskuhl and Patrick O'Bryant are all expendable pieces.]
Wooooo Wasaga Beach was awesome today. Great sun, Great people, Really my Fav place to kick back and relax.
Anywho Bosh wants a Max contract and nothing else I hear.
I’m sorry guys but that cannot happen. He hasn’t lived up to the bill as a marquee talent in this League. He’s not an superstar he just has the allure of one. As the great Bret Hart has said about Ric Flair in his book, ” He was a 3 dressed up as a 9 “.
You know where I stand with Bosh
And a big LOL for those who picked the Lakers in 6. What happened last year by the way? Phil will outcoach Doc and the Celtics have no playoff experience. Who’s going to stop Kobe? The Lakers will not be denied? etc etc.
IMO
So far, Phil and Kobe cannot prove they can win without Shaq and Michael Jordan.
The Magic just beat the shit out of the defending champions and then the best team in the League, the Cavs. Who thought Orlando would dominate them the way they did? No way will they just roll over and die now. SVG will not allow it and neither will Dwight. Orlando in 6.
Here’s a specific proposition for no one else but you.
If the Orlando Magic win this series vs the LA Lakers, I will pay you $100 [or a nominal amount of your choosing, less than that], via Paypal.
If the LA Lakers win this series vs the Orlando Magic, you will pay me that same $100, via Paypal.
Deal, or No Deal?
[you have until the opening tip-off for Game Two, to accept this proposition]
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
Wow, really clever and mature. I’ll make sure to that insult next time
You’re a bit of a shady fellow, no offense Khandor. I’ve placed best with friends though. Plus, looking at your blog I think you’d be doing yourself a favor to just work on that thing with your spare time…..
Orlando is like +280 on the money line u ***
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
Here’s the specific call which was made by a certain comment contributor to this site:
—————————————
re: And a big LOL for those who picked the Lakers in 6. What happened last year by the way? Phil will outcoach Doc and the Celtics have no playoff experience. Who’s going to stop Kobe? The Lakers will not be denied? etc etc.
IMO
So far, Phil and Kobe cannot prove they can win without Shaq and Michael Jordan.
The Magic just beat the shit out of the defending champions and then the best team in the League, the Cavs. Who thought Orlando would dominate them the way they did? No way will they just roll over and die now. SVG will not allow it and neither will Dwight. Orlando in 6. – by Cosa Nostra
—————————————-
Nothing there about needing favourable “odds”, in return.
Many talk a good game but then lack the willingness and ability to back it up.
Just because A guy has an underdog as his prediction does not mean offering a straight bet does not make u a ****
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.khandor!!!!
The true odds are you bet 330ish to win 100 on the Lakers or 100 to win 280ish back on Orlando…
Not only are you painful to read know ****
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
Listen you little queer…
I am betting with my friends. People I know. People I can trust who I know will pay if I win. I don’t know you. I don’t want to know you. Your not my friend. Therefore I will not bet money with a stranger. And what if you never live up to your end of the bargain? Am I supposed to get my police friend from 12 division to get your IP address so that I come to your door to collect my payment. Cause I would do that, trust me on that.
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
Oh God these Bosh commercials need to stop. It’s as if he won 4 championships and MVP’s or something. Damn we finish in last place in the East every year with him at the helm yet he’s this heroic figure in Toronto. Why do we celebrate mediocrity?
for more information on this topic vist http://www.mapleleafs.com
Bush will test the 2010 free agent market … just coming over the newswire … Guess that finishes off extension talk ….!!!!
Money Mike is too Brash too be honest lol Needs to learn some manners.
Shats, did you see the Bosh interview on The Score? I totally forgot that Amare Stadamire called him out. I know these internet posters think Bosh is anything but weak and fragile but I rather trust Amare and Garnette, people who played him and can comment accurately about his play.
Now if Bosh were to tear the league next season is it because he’s a free agent is trying to show off and get his payday/repair his image or did he genuinely wanted to help the raptors win? I think the former
No.
Although that might be what YOU mean; it’s not what I mean.
Rashard Lewis is a #3/SF.
Rashard Lewis, also, happens to be used by the Orlando Magic at both the SF & the PF positions.
This does not mean that Rashard Lewis is a 3.5 … except, perhaps, to those who Kobe Bryant has described as, “Not knowing anything about the game.” [i.e. similar to those who might think that a dominant Big Man, like Shaquille O'Neal, can win a NBA Title without needing each and everyone of his teammates, including the likes of Kobe Bryant, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, etc.]
Those who know how the game works, at this level of competition, are very specific when it comes to small details like that.
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
Quote from RapsFan
“As per the fallout yesterday, I will be editing comments when they are useless and attack another commenter. Although funny/entertaining, we want to play nice”.
lol, guess that didn;t last too long :)
lol
lol I spit out a bit of my espresso bro. Thanks for that
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NO attacking people man. Be nice.
lol I was discussing basketball though man. Khandor called me out so you know I would have said something back lol
I can’t watch you guys 24/7.
Yeah, but I have no idea where moneymike is coming from