Its starting to happen. The Raptors are starting to contemplate existence without Chris Bosh, which I should remind you, is entirely sustainable. When he’s traded this summer nobody should ring any alarm bells or view at it as a negative for the franchise by any means. We’ve seen greater players head through the exits and have still managed to survive. It’s not like we’ll be losing a resource that could propel this team into the next level with his play, or someone who attracts great or even serviceable players to Toronto, we sadly still remain a team who’s most attractive asset is the General Manager. So when Bosh leaves we should see it as the natural step on the evolution of this franchise, not a death-blow that will bring it to its knees.
We’ve given him a fair shot to prove that he’s cornerstone material but in his five years with the club he’s only proven that he’s a good player, maybe even a very good one on some nights but is he irreplaceable? Not by a stretch. We’ve all come to accept that Bosh needs major help if this team is to go anywhere significant, and that having players like Jose Calderon, Andrea Bargnani and Shawn Marion isn’t good enough. We need to do better than that and I find it awfully difficult for Colangelo to import All-Star talent when he’s already cutting fat cheques to the players mentioned (Marion isn’t going to come cheap and Bargnani is due for a raise). If the only way to keep Bosh on the roster is to hand him an escalating contract starting at $21.5M a year, is it really worth it? Does it make sense for us to tie up $45M in just Bosh, Calderon and Bargnani given what they’ve shown?
Ideally you’d like to give these players another year to see if they can produce some magic but it’s too late for that, the Bosh decision is looming and the Raptors can’t afford to head into next summer with the only collateral being a sign-and-trade offer for him. Short of Bosh starting next season on fire and the team winning a good chunk of its games, this summer is the least riskiest time to trade him. If we start next season poorly the Bosh rumour mill will be working overtime and there will be valid speculation that he might want to leave a losing situation. Colangelo will be left to field low-ball offers form GMs knowing that he has to pull the trigger or else risk losing him for nothing. Right now, the chances of Bosh staying are perceived to be 50-50 which are the best odds Colangelo is likely to enter any trade negotiations with. A Bosh trade could also help us off-load one of our two terrible contracts in Jason Kapono and Marcus Banks giving us flexibility to sign the swingman that we need.
Bosh has proven to be a perimeter-oriented PF who can’t adjust to dynamic defenses that throw different looks at him. He’s slow to negotiate double-teams and almost always fails to properly read the defender who is showing help but not yet helping. His anticipatory senses are weak which means he resorts to very generic and predictable moves which are often easy to defend and much more importantly, do not make his teammates better because he does not yield good shots for them. His drives to the rim do not have an outlet option and his decision-making at the elbow is slow and painful to watch. He does not have the basketball IQ or skill to warrant a touch on every possession, in other words, he’s not the guy you want to fall back on in times of crisis, and if I’m investing $21.5M a year in a player, I sure hope he can do that for me.
Take Kevin Garnett’s example in Minnesota, he was handed a max-contract and outside of one playoff run, couldn’t muster a thing in the post-season. He’s a great example of very good player that can be counted on to do certain very valuable things such as playing defense, toughening up the inside, being a floor leader, but the second you ask him to provide for you when it counts you run into trouble. The Celtics have 60M dollars tied up in three Hall of Famers and only then can they think about contending. The same is true with Bosh, you’ll need Hall-of-Fame-type help to go anywhere with him and unlike the Celtics, we can’t pull that off. There’s no point building a team around him without getting All-Star quality help at two other positions.
You get a sense of where a player’s ceiling might be in their third or fourth year and although Bosh hasn’t hit it, he’s shown what it is. He’s living off the same skill-set for the last three years – mid-range jumper and blow-by quickness. He has shown little to no improvement in his post-game which has prevented him for truly punishing defenses that put a quicker defender on him. His footwork is mediocre and his finishing ability around the rim is poor and soft. I think it’s fair to say that he’s never going to be an efficient scorer like Tim Duncan, a power player like Dwight Howard or as explosive as Amare Stoudamire was before the injuries. He’s best suited for a team that doesn’t depend on his scoring and can have him play a freelancing role with little offensive pressure – much like Kevin Garnett. The difference is that on the Raptors we need him to do more while the Celtics can afford Garnett to do less.
Luis Scola has averages higher rebounding per-48 and is 1.58 points behind Bosh in terms of scoring per FGA. Bosh averages twice as many FT attempts as Scola which also means he gets that many more touches. Luis Scola is a more efficient player than Chris Bosh. That’s a fact and the worst part is that I haven’t seen anything in Bosh’s game to suggest that he’s going to improve on his rates. Other than his improved jumper his growth as an offensive player has slowed down if not stagnated.
He’s still the best player on the team but you have to wonder how much of that is the result of him being a good player on a bad team. If we have the chance to convert him into assets that could have more potential we should jump on the opportunity, after all, we have a pretty good idea what we have here and its still not good enough. Five years and two first-round exits later you have to re-examine the strategy of building around Bosh and move on. He will be a perennial All-Star with someone like Wade or Lebron around him but here in Toronto where resources are scarce, he’ll always be asked to perform beyond his means and that’s not fair to him and the fans. Simply put, we don’t have the financial capacity to surround him with the caliber of players that he needs while paying him big bucks at the same time. If Bosh had the ability to attract other free agents to Toronto it could’ve been considered or maybe even if had shown the ability to lead and motivate his teammates, but he just doesn’t have those oh so important intangible characteristics.
Surrounding a dominant player with a collection of good to great role players is a viable strategy of team-building and one that is working for teams such as Orlando, Cleveland and LA. Unfortunately, the Raptors can’t follow that model because they lack the dominant player needed for it to have a chance. I’d much rather see this team sure-up as many positions as it can and try to instill a concept of team-ball which can produce success. The “shorter rotation” strategy failed miserably for us last year and if the primary difference between next year’s team and the previous one the replacement of O’Neal with Marion, we’ll be running into the same issues again.
A Bosh trade right now could help us solidify two or more positions, if we allow his contract situation to drag on into the season we’ll be encouraging teams vying for him to wait it out till next summer and make a clean run at him. Colangelo has to try to and sign him into a reasonable extension and if that’s not possible, do what’s best for the franchise, not for Chris Bosh. Listen intently to the trade offers that will come from Detroit, Golden State, Miami, Dallas and Cleveland and swing a deal that gives this team 1-2 years to gel the incoming players and aim for serious contention in 2010-11 or 2011-12. It can be done, we just have to barter our highest valued resource properly and do our homework in the draft, no reason why this thing can’t be turned around if Bargnani continues his development, Calderon returns to form and we solve the defensive rebounding issues.
This franchise should not be held hostage by Chris Bosh’s indecision on whether to sign or not, we need to be proactive and do what’s best for the team right now. The Chris Bosh chapter of this franchise is over and it was the least exciting of them all.
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166 Raps
Well said!
“He does not have the basketball IQ or skill to warrant a touch on every possession, in other words, he’s not the guy you want to fall back on in times of crisis, and if I’m investing $21.5M a year in a player, I sure hope he can do that for me.”
Love that line. I’ve stated in my articles for a while now that it’s time the Raptors and Bosh went their separate ways, it’s nice to see others finally agreeing.
Right now, it looks as if Bargnani’s ceiling is higher than Bosh’s ever was, he was a #1 pick so rightly so. The only problem I have with building around a few guys is that usually championship teams have one legitimate star and than a couple semi-stars around him.
Do you bring in someone else to be that legitimate star or hope Bargnani turns into one?
Again, nice read.
Bargs will never be a star and he sure as hell will never be a leader. He will be a good above-average player.
Like I said yesterday on Twitter, trade Bosh for 2 good bodies that shore up positional weaknesses and make sure one of them is the type to hold teammates accountable. Anything less in return and Colangelo should be shown the door.
Finally, we’re on the same page.
huh?? I’ve said the same thing for months. You just do selective reading.
Weren’t you giving everyone heck for wanting to trade a 20/10 player?
Spudz
http://www.altraps.com/forum
If we draft a PF (Pittsburgh guy Teague?)….does that mean something more?
And compare an extended Bargnani on a 3-4 yr deal starting at $10mil. and ending at $13-14mil to a maxed out Bosh. For the cost of Bosh’s contract you get Bargs and another player – say David Lee on a contract similar to Bargs’ extension. For Bosh and someone like Varejao (who some have suggested, reasonably, is a better big-man combo for Toronto) you tie up somewhere in the neighbourhood of $28-30 mil. a year for however many years the 2 contract run. You save about $10 mil on the Bargs scenario here. I think that money can get you a scorer on the wing.
Bosh may be the better player but Bargs is probably the better value to this team. If Bosh stays he stays as the centrepiece and it will be hard to have him change his role. Bargs, because he’s still a work in progress, comes cheaper and has shown an ability to change his game as requested by the team (i.e. last summer’s bulk up and big man work). On the flip side trading Bargs for Varejao (which makes some sense for both teams although the numbers don’t work) decreases the overall roster flexibility BC has.
Still need the leadership thing though. I can’t sit through another loss to the Pistons where they simply let the Raps go on a little run, punch them in the face (metaphorically speaking) and then walk away with the game. That just has to stop.
Bargs’s is carbon copy of Mehmet Okur, circa 2004 in a contract season with the Pistons.
Skillwise, they both have the same predominant outside-in, 3pt shooting perimeter offensive attack; the same semi-average verticle jump and average latteral quickness, and the same deficient overall rebounding production for legit 7-foot Centres.
Characterwise, I don’t think either of them are type-A alpha-dogs born to lead their packs. Their personalities don’t seem to have the natural charisma that draws others to follow even thought they just regualar starting-caliber NBA players with second-option skills.
I agree that Bargs’ ceiling is currently higher than the sum of the player Okur has become, but I honestly don’t expect Barg’s will signifcantly be able raise his ceiling to a perenial all-star level, at which point I think his career will eventually turn out to equal Okur’s.
Sincerely, I do hope Bargs proves me wrong and becomes a great player in this league. But I just don’t see it. Yet.
how do you know he will never be star or leader.
I would rather have three(3) $7M players or two(2) $11M players than one(1) $22M Bosh. In fact Bosh is not even worth what he is being paid now..!!!
When it comes to money and Bosh .. I prefer the money and the good team players that can be acquired for the difference. If BC believes Bosh is needed to bring in the moronic tribal honking fans who would accept mediocrity to keep their emotional ties to their delusionary hero Bosh .. rather than watching good team bball … sobeit … but that will not only destroy the Ratpors that will also kill off BC as Ratpor president.
Rebuild the Ratpors with a ‘team bball’ concept … and if an all-star emerges so much the better. I hate the superstar bballer carrying an inadequate incompetent team because that denigrates the game of bball. I don’t need a “hero-star” player like tribal honkers need for their pathetically weak egos and lack of bball appreciation. I enjoy watching role players emerging as game heroes based on effort and brains … and not only raw talent.
Dump Bosh … get smart athletic players … build a ‘team’ not a ‘hero’ for the stupid tribal honkers..!!!
it’s staggering just how poorly the average raptor fan, and fan of the NBA in general, simply doesn’t understand how THIS game works.
all of bosh’s perceived weaknesses can be explained by two words. andrea. bargnani.
Don’t even try. Same people thought the team, as constructed, would win 45 games and be fighting for a playoff seed. All with Chris Bosh. They also thought Jermaine O’Neal was the answer. Any visit to the RR chat room had people lauding JO for pulling down a board and ignoring him clanking gimme’s.
Ah well.
in other words bosh was one of the elite players prior to bargs coming to town????
damn, i must have been watching a different team cause i swear Boshs contribution to the team hasnt changed all that much in his entire career.
People who think that Bargnani is the answer to Bosh have got it all wrong. No sane person believes Bargs is that person. Similarly those who think Chris Bosh sucks need not apply.
The key point to take from this post is this is the TIME to trade Bosh. He is a good player, maybe not good enough to be that central piece that you surround with role players (because the end result is a 31 win season), but if there was ever a TIME to trade him, that time would be NOW.
Great stuff. Excellent points made about Bosh. He is, unfortunately, exactly the player that you’re describing. The comparisons to Kevin Garnett were especially nice, since I don’t think many people realize how similar their situations were/are. It is important to note, though, that clutch power forwards who are able to carry teams on they’re backs have never existed, but this should further emphasize the fact that Bosh will never go deep into the playoffs without All-Star caliber help. If he expects a max contract to stay in Toronto, then it seems like a trade is the only way to go. I guess now the question is for what, right? Do we attempt to make a player swap, and hope we can compete in 1-2 years? Or do we give the team a total makeover, and hope to compete in 4-5 years? Decisions, decisions…
Chris Bosh is Pau Gasol.
Chris Bosh is No Gas at All ..!!!!
Bosh can’t hold up Gasol’s socks! Gasol is a machine..he’s a better rebounder by a zillion especially on the offensive glass,Gasol’s is also about 400 times smarter than Bosh, is not predictable like Bosh, and can pass as good as any big man in the league which Bosh can’t do even to an open man. Bosh isn’t worth half what Gasol makes..and oh I forgot Gasol doesn’t brag about how he’s an MVP, and a deadbeat dad, etc….
Well put. The only way Bosh can be considered a max player is if MLSE is willing to STAY in the luxury tax for years in order to (hopefully) surround him with other all-star caliber talent (AKA…the Pistons model). Even still, he shouldn’t get max money, but he’s going to somewhere.
If a Deng and Gordon trade could be done I’d be OK with that. Deng and Gordon for 21.5 mil (ish) is better than Bosh for the same cash.
Another option/path:
Does anybody think CB4 would actually take less than the max contract to ensure flexibility and help BC fill the gaps with serviceable players with that available cash?
I don’t think we can put that past CB4? Quite possibly, he is of reasonable character and perhaps he is of the ‘money don’t make the man’ fabric?
Thoughts?
I have floated that idea out there in the past. I think you could bank on him doing it.
Question is: you, as Bosh, have seen what Colangelo has done with a #1 pick and cap space at his disposal. A few years later, here we stand. Do you re-up and hope he gets it right the second time or take less money and go to a team that might be on the cusp?
I don’t think Bosh can afford to leave money on the table. He’s got that lawsuit pending with his baby-momma.
Much as he may love Toronto and the Raptor fans, do you really expect him to pass by the big Pampers display in the diaper aisle and reach instead for a box of no-name or Teddy’s Choice brand???
The less he gets, the less she gets. That should be reason enough for him to accept a lesser contract.
Please even IF he does take a pay cut (wouldnt put it passed him) he’ll still make 10-18 mill a year…Im pretty dam sure thats enough for the *big pampers display*…im just saying, its sort of insane how much money players make and that a pay cut is still worth millions of dollars!
How can someone say “its going to be tough to live of $15 million a year. He should just be grateful he’s not stuck as a manager of a burger king franchise or an employee of AIG or GM. I don;t see why the max contract can’t be downgraded to 20% of the salary cap. Then some players may have to live on *gasp* $12 million year
I think he would if obvious it would net him a better team around him. But that isn’t likely to happen.
Nice post Arse, I agree.
Nice post
Idiots…we wont get any value back for trading Bosh. And this franchise will lose all credibility with the rest of the players in the league since we keep running our franchise players out of town. Which premiere player will want to come to Toronto when the franchise ups Triano to head coach and chases Bosh out of town? It upsets me that so much is being said about Bosh, and most of it is crap…
Trade Bargs. Keep Bosh. Save the reputation of the Raptors francise.
“Save the reputation of the Raptors francise.”What kind of reputation?
We’re soft, friendly and easy to beat.
Bosh has not brought us past the first round. He is a good player, however the franchise is better off trading him while his value is the highest…which is now.
They can get a good package for him.
If you max him out with that fat ass contract, the ‘chise is screwed for the forseeable future. Trade him with either of Banks/Kapono, and get a starter and a decent bench/role player plus a pick, and we are looking good.
The only way he stays is if he signs for less.
As much I agree in part with you, Bosh will be an UFA and he will walk out on us.
We either trade him for downgrades or get nothing in return.
“To successfully skim a little honey from a bee hive is better than getting stung and getting no honey trying to hoard the hive.” -JBL-
Wouldn’t say nothing…you’ll have some cap room….at the worst possible time ever.
Cap space. The NBA equivalent of hard liquor for ugly people: Everyone looks tequila-terrific until you wake up next and realize you sealed a deal with horseface donkey named “Roko Kapono”.
LMFAO
Rap of the year, Ballswin
There are some great comments here and the initial idea of the blog post is correct, even if unfortunate. I like Bosh a great and think he is an outstanding example of a player who has considerable if limited gifts and has done the most possible with them.
But, the above comment is way off. First, you won’t get full value back for Bosh but you will get value and best of all relief. Arguably both Minnesota and Memphis traded franchise cornerstones for peanuts and both franchises are better off for it than they were before the gifting despite being horribly run. Here are the problems with the above comment.
1) The franchise will lose credibility and no one will want to come here.
Sorry to tell you but the franchise has no credibility. LA Lakers, Houston Rockets, Detroit Pistons (arguably), Boston C’s, San Antonio, Utah (arguably), Miami, Portland, OKC (surpisingly) and Dallas (to a lesser extent) have credibility. That is it, the whole list. Everyone else is seen as floundering – even Orlando has yet to get it. These are franchses that are seen as well run or reasonably well run by players.
1b) Save the Raps Reputation? What reputation? What has ever been won in Toronto? Boston has a reputation, Lakers have a reputation, SA even Dallas but Toronto? What exactly do you want to save, annual lottery visits and first round exits? This is a losing mentality, you either move ahead or die. No one wants to come to Toronto already. The hot list of places people want to go consists of places that have proven winners and big star press/warm weather-desirable locations. This list reduces the above to only: Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, LA Lakers and Houston. People will look to Boston, Portland and Detroit due to history but as you go through the rest of the league there is a sort of micro economic trade off of their desperation and how many dollars you would have to throw their way to get them even if you really could get them. Nothing against Chicago, Toronto, etc as cities but if it wasn’t for Colangelo most players would not even give the Raps a second look unless they were desperate. Sorry haters but if you don’t see this find me 10 better GM’s in the NBA and list them.
2) Running Bosh out of town. Its a business. If Bosh wants to be Kevin Garnett and get 20 Mil plus a season to be a bridesmaid then trade him now. In the end he will thank you and the team will be better off. He is not going to take you any farther than Garnett could take you (as stated above). To admit this and do a deal is not running anyone out of town. It is making a smart business decision that everyone benefits from. No one is going to look at it as a negative if it is handled in the straight up manner. I have to believe that even Bosh sees the limits here. As the Cavs just proved the NBA has changed. One SuperStud is not enough. Look at LA’s line up. 3 guys who would be or have been go to guys on their teams (Odom, Gasol, Kobe) and probably would be the best player on any of the bad teams. Ditto Boston and even to a certain extent Houston and Orlando (Howard, Lewis with ?’s for Nelson/Hedo). Bosh, Marion and ? is not going to cut it unless the third guy is Kobe/Wade/Bron.
Committing 50 Mil to Bosh, Marion and Bargs? You will get yourself at most five years of borderline playoffs with no flexibility and declining skill sets. Frustration at best. Again, I like Bosh but he is not going to get you anywhere at 20 Mil. You have 3 choices. Wait and offer him 12-15 M and pray like hell that he will take it and you can use the rest to get something to fill in the missing pieces. Trade him now for a young (Al Jefferson type) and picks. Stick your head in the sand and pay him the full monty and in 5 years trade him for peanuts to LA or Boston or who ever the flavor of the month is then and watch him win a title while hammering your franchise for wasting his career and you start over anyway.
Colangelo gave this thing a run, I think he saw all this already. It hasn’t and won’t work. It is time to make the tough call. If you can’t see that and he can’t get it done I hope you enjoy Timberwolves 2 as it is now other franchises are making tough decisions/moves and passing us by. I don’t want to see that happen and I truly hope Bosh either comes to terms with this (not sure I would if I were him – money is money) or Colangelo gets the guts to do it.
The fact of the matter is that Bosh IS a franchise player. Not in the sense that he can put a team on his back and win a game on his own (which only Kobe can do) but in the sense that he has the game (scoring, rebounding, team defense) to put guys around and win games/playoff rounds. Just remember, the Magic weren’t that good until they overpaid for Rashard Lewis, signed Pietrus to a comparatively cheap contract, and got key reserves in Gortat and Battie running. Bosh is surrounded by half that talent.
I agree in principle. People comparing D12 to CB4 are apples & oranges. The biggest complaint about Bosh on these boards are his lack of cluchness (even though the stats prove them wrong)…where is Howard’s scoring in the 4th quarter? His role is to set high screens for his very good perimeter players then role to the basket. Bosh could do that too if he had the perimeter players, and you could even give it to him outside 5 feet with an excellent chance to score.
Insinuating that Luis Scola is a better player than Bosh, even stating that he’s more efficient, is a fucking disgrace. He’s a 4th option on that team (when healthy) so he gets many more open looks than Bosh. Bosh’s FG%, FT% and FTA make him one of the most efficient big men in the league.
If you think it’s time to trade Bosh, that’s fine. Don’t belittle his game down to something it’s not just to prove your point. The guy had a season worse than we all could’ve imagined and he still averaged 20-10 and was the 2nd highest vote getter not named to an All-NBA team. For all your criticisms of Bosh (basically claiming him to have a terrible offensive game without helping any of his teammates be better), he has excellent career shooting numbers, and hit the most FTs in the league for a big man. The stats actually say he’s quite an efficient player.
Basketball is a team game that is reliant on strategy imparted from the coach. To blame Bosh alone for all these problems is disingenuous at best. It’s crap like this that makes me want him to get traded, just to prove you wrong when he still plays well and the players we import suck.
I agree 100% Macy. And your wish might come true.
+1
preach brotha preach!!!
Bosh is gunna come back to the ACC and drop 25pts and 10 rebs to help the pistons win if we trade him.
REMEMBER WHEN WE TRADED CARTER? bosh was young & up-and-coming but no one believed he would be that good, 3 yrs later hes sick…the same thing will happen with Bargs…just watch…itll be Andrea’s team and everyone will be crying..”if Bosh and Andrea were together….blah blah blah….”
To build a championship team you need at least one guy like Bosh…think about it.
Couldn’t have said it any better
bosh is overrated by idiots with low standards for this franchise.
Luis Scola was one of the three best players in Europe before he came here. He absolutely raped the Lakers when Yao went down in the Houston series. Everybody says the Lakers had no business being pushed to seven games in that series, but the truth of the matter is, that the Rockets are loaded with talent. Scola could be a number two option on a contending team. He’s got great footwork, is deftly crafty around the basket, and can hit 17-foot jumpshots with regularity. When Yao went down last year, Scola was the one who stepped up and shouldered the lowpost offensive load. He could average 20 and 9 if he didn’t play with Yao and T-Mac. No doubt Bosh is the superior talent, but if you watch enough of Luis Scola, he is more efficient. He rarely takes a bad shot.
I want to get on board the trade Bosh bus, but I just can’t. And it’s not because I think he deserves the money or that he can be the alpha dog on a championship team. I just think that if you trade Bosh, you have to trade the rest of the team. I just don’t buy that Calderon, Marion (or bad FA replacement) and Bargnani plus whatever you can get for Bosh does anything but put this team right at the outside edge of the playoffs for the next 3-4 years. Maybe you get a lucky draft pick in there, maybe Bargs becomes a superstar, maybe you get lucky and get a Gasol-esque piece for an expiring contract. But the likelihood is that instead you’ve just created a recipe for perpetual mediocrity unless you blow up the whole team, suck for 2-3 years and get some young players in.
If you’re going to go with mediocrity, I’d rather see them keep Bosh and try to actually put pieces around him that work together. You know, like a team. I mean think for a minute about what an ideal team around Bosh would actually look like. It would probably be a half-court team, a team where he’s surrounded by good man-to-man defenders and defensive rebounders, and can use his speed to hedge but doesn’t have to recover all the way back to the basket every damned possession because there’s shot blocking behind him. Where he can come over from the weak side to block shots knowing that someone is rotating in behind to his man.
On the offensive end, you’d ideally have Bosh at the 4, a 5 such as a Perkins or even a Verjao, and the 1, 2 and 3 would be made up of one alpha dog type player, one defensive specialist who can hit the 3 and one quick penetrating pass-first role player.
So, in an ideal world you’d have a team that might look like
Kendrick Perkins
Chris Bosh
Trevor Ariza
Joe Johnson
Rajon Rondo
Now I used this example obviously because it shows that if you swap Garnet, Pierce and Allen for Bosh, Johnson and Butler, you’ve got a reasonable facsimile of a damned good team. Now try to imagine a championship-calibre team with Calderon and Bargnani as the starting point and PF/center respectively. Ultimately, my point is this: if you’re going to choose mediocrity over rebuilding, then keeping your one viable piece of a championship puzzle is better than dealing it and being left with none.
All that being said, I’d rather they go with the firesale option. You’ve just brought in a cheap coach, there are good young players out there to be had (Anthony Randolph), and teams are going to be shedding contracts and picks like mad to stay under the cap. If you’re looking for a good time to build, this is it. The next 3-4 years are going to be dominated by the exit of Kobe, the continued insanity of Lebron and Wade and Paul, an improving Dwight Howard, etc. Go young now, stockpile those picks, expiring contracts and some young talent.
Too bad we’ve got MLSE behind them. Oh well. Mediocrity is is, then.
Bargs
David Lee
Anthony Randolph (or Josh Childress)
Joe Johnson (or his younger equivalent from this year’s or next years’s draft – Evans?)
Jose Calderon
What does that team do in 3 years if Bargs continues to improve his game? Probably not as good a team as the one you set out but there is no way anyone other than Boston has Perkins and Rondo so those are pipe dreams. Everyone but Johnson is a possibility on my list.
Trade advocates are going to be in for a rude awakening if Bosh goes for any one of these so called quality trade packages that have been thrown around lately. This team will be in the dumps for several more years.
It makes no sense to trade the one great young player on this team who actually produces night in night out because he can’t lead a roster which at the moment is tied down by overrated stiffs on bloated contracts like Kapono, Calderon, and Bargnani.
Keep Bosh and deal with the garbage when the opportunity is there .. or trade Bosh for likely much lesser players while keeping all the same garbage which has been the big problem the entire time. I like the first option more.
Don’t forget the invaluable Marcus Banks.
I think that we can all agree that there is at least some merit to either trading Bosh or signing him for max money (IF he wants to stay in TO). But in either scenerio it’s difficult to see a championship team through the maze of pipeline in the near future. There is no clear amd certain way out of this situation that leads to playoff success.
The Raptors wont be winning a championship whether we trade Bosh or keep him, remember winning championships trickles down from ownership, and our ownership likes where we are. How do I know? Well, you can build a winning program with Bryan Colangelo, but not a championship contender. Phoenix was a great team, but they were only a Western Conference contender, not a championship one. You can’t win a championship with Jay fucking Triano as your coach. The guy is an assistant coach, plain and simple. I like him, but he isn’t a Doc Rivers. Before you get your panties in a not, Rivers was an amazing NBA player and got Garnett/Allen/Pierce in line to win a championship in one year. Triano, not so much.
Rivers was considered by many to be a poor coach until he brought in Thibodeau and got 3 Hall of Famers from his GM. Not sure what Triano would do with all that firepower but it’s a little early to write the guy off. You and Cosa Nostra kind of deserve each other with your hyperbole.
Since we’re not winning a championship (you’re dead right about that), Triano might be exactly the kind of coach a team like the Raptors need at this sorry stage of their existence.
Rivers was a former coach of the year with the Magic so its not like b4 the big three were put together he was some scrub coach.
Please trade this pretentious, one dimensional, overrated player.
Makes an announcement today that he’s signing a record deal. Amazing. Toronto Raptors this is your Franchise superstar who will take us to the finals in the future.
Too Bosh – You are being paid $15 million a year to win games for us and to represent the city. You have enough trouble with your game and leadership as it is and your concerned with making music. Why not work on your post game and basket game and announce that instead? That you hired a top end coach to help you in these areas.
Your team is coming in dead last every year and this jackass doesn’t seem to care one little bit.
Now this jackass will come into next season and we will go 3-12 to start the season. This guy doesn’t seem to care.
You’re an idiot. Chris Bosh is neither pretentious, one dimensional or overrated.
Although, the record label thing is a little upsetting, but it’s the off-season and people can do what they want.
Meet me Downtown and call me an idiot and you want have fingers to type anymore.
Yonge and Wellington, anytime homie ;)
Awesome. Send em your email tough guy and I’ll PM my cell.
rapsfan@raptorsrepublic.com
This is a service I’ll be provide the entire City of Toronto. Beat you all into appreciating Chris Bosh.
Gotta love internet shit-talk
Watch out Cosa Nostra, Raps Fan will pwn you, and I’ll be LMFAO while ROFLing at how much of a noob you are (Damn, internet slang really makes shit smack-talk).
Hahaha, what happened to the times when guys use to fight for women? Now you’re fighting for the Ru Paul of B-Ball
i dont even find his dumb skits funny…hes a fucking dork.
Aresenalist lol. Your article is inspired by my posting the last few weeks isn’t it? Your starting to see that I don’t talk trash I’m actually stating facts.
I said a month ago Luis Scola is better then Bosh at 4 million a year and is mentally tougher and a better leader. People thought I was nuts. He shut down Bosh in the Olympics and Rupaul had to be benched because Scola’s post game proved to much for the weakling.
You are bringing Arsenalist down to your level??
That’s better than any insult I could ever hurl. Nice job.
+1
He’s a better writer then you are. You just ride his coattails all day long. This is HIS site.
I know I do, he’s also primo at picking up girls, you should see the leftovers I scoop up.
You will probably call the police or trace my phone call so I’m not giving out my cell. That’s a dumb thing to do. And for all I know you will get nervous and do something like that at the last minute. Not important enough for me.
Why are you still talking? Go play in the sandbox, this is grown person business.
I’m ready to drop a People’s elbow on all of you balony-ass jabronies.
Out of fear for Realizar, I humbly apologize and put this beef to rest. Love you Cosa :)
Arsenalist 4 president!!!
Why doesn’t anybody ever write long articles about trading Andrea Bargnani to get Chris Bosh some real help in the middle? Does anybody really feel safe building a team around Andrea Bargnani?
I choose to build around the better player, every time. Why trade Bosh, your best player, unless he is on a downswing or you can for sure get equal value? Since when is getting even 80 cents on the dollar EVER a good trade?
ROTD!
We knwo your a retard
You mean know – right retard?
well, first off, what, exactly, can you get for bargs? certainly not enough to make an actual difference to the makeup of the team, such that they suddenly because legit contenders, and certainly not enough to convince bosh that they’re just around the corner, and that it would therefore be in his best interest to re-sign. so, you trade bargs for $.70 on the dollar, then lose bosh, perhaps in a sign & trade…and get $.50 on the dollar for him.
at the end of the day, it makes more sense to deal bosh & get SOMETHING for a guy who’ll likely walk anyway, than it does to deal bargs, since the raps pretty much own his rights for the next few years, at a cheaper cap hit.
If Bosh declines our extension offer this summer, he’s as good as gone next summer. Face the fact.
You don’t sell your only remaining assets when it’s all you’ve got to rebuild with after you’ve been dumped.
I suspect Bosh will quietly tell BC that he would prefer to be traded rather than being offered an extension. Bosh must want a change of work environment rather than continuously struggling with the declining Ratpors and ruining his commercial value come 2010.
I think Bosh has given the Ratpors fair value over the years and now his value is declining as he struggles on and off the floor. He’s obviously not a true franchise player like Kobe or Lebron … and neither does he want that unstable role.
I wish some here would display some empathy for Bosh and his reasonable career objectives. Bosh needs to be on a new team to jack up his commercial value and everybody here knows that reality.
As for those bashing Bosh’s extra-curricular activites…. do you follow Dwight Howards twitter feeds?
Dude spends more time blogging and tweeting about his wrestling nickname than I thought humanly possible, but nobody complains as long as you win.
Bosh isn’t in a position to win, because his team SUCKS. Don’t hate on dude for having a life in the offseason instead of sitting in a dark room lifting weights and getting angry.
That sounds like Ivan Drago, and Rocky kicked his ass anyways.
This has merit as ROTD too.
“Don’t hate on dude for having a life in the offseason instead of sitting in a dark room lifting weights and getting angry.
That sounds like Ivan Drago, and Rocky kicked his ass anyways.”
Dead on, but there is no Rocky in the NBA. The real question is who in the NBA best represents these two sporting archetypes?
Macy O’Baston says:
Jun 1, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Insinuating that Luis Scola is a better player than Bosh, even stating that he’s more efficient, is a fucking disgrace. He’s a 4th option on that team (when healthy) so he gets many more open looks than Bosh. Bosh’s FG%, FT% and FTA make him one of the most efficient big men in the league.
——————————–
Your an absolute idiot. A 4th option on that team. I’d say Bosh is more of a 4th Option you numbnuts.
#1 what happened to the Rockets last year with no Yao Ming in the linup? The team went on a 22 game winning streak in the WEST. Who lead that team to that record? Luis Scola/battier did. Fact
He shut down Bosh in the Olympics last summer to the point that Bosh had to be benched. Watch the Argentina game and then comment.
BTW who took the Lakers to 7 games this year in the playoffs? With no Mc Grady, no Yao and no Mutumbo? That’s what I thought.
What was your boyfriend Bosh doing in the playoffs this year? That’s right he was home because he is a regular season stat padder.
Scola is better overall player
There’s a big difference between “more efficient” and “better”, my friend.
Luis Scola did not “lead” the team to a 22 game win streak last season. He contributed, but they did have a gentleman by the name of Tracy McGrady that was carrying some of the load.
Same thing with these playoffs. Sure, Scola was nice, but so was Aaron Brooks. Battier and Artest made major defensive contributions, and Wafer, Landry and Hayes all played pretty good sized roles too. Houston’s success in the playoffs was the definition of a team effort.
Look at it this way. Yes, Scola is more efficient, but that can be viewed as a result of his being the 3rd or 4th option on the Rockets. (And don’t dispute that he’s the 3rd option at best. McGrady, Yao, and Artest all get looks before he does.) The attention being payed to other players allows him to get better looks, and results in him being more efficient. But do you honestly believe that if Scola were to be the number one option on a team like the Raptors, and he got the majority of the touches while defenses keyed on stopping him, that his efficiency would remain at the same level it is? You really think his excellent FG% and points per FGA would be maintained with increased usage? Shawn Marion thought so when he was in Phoenix, and look at him now.
Bosh does things Scola is incapable of doing, plain and simple. So, in his role, Scola is indeed more efficient, and is a hell of a player. But at the same time, we’ve never seen Bosh in a role even somewhat resembling Scola’s, so what evidence do you have that Bosh wouldn’t be even more efficient than Scola if he was playing with talented players in a system like Houston’s? Because there’s no chance in hell that Scola contributes the same amount that Bosh has if put in the same situation. He has offensive limitations that will prevent him from ever being a number one option. (although I will certainly admit that Scola is a more talented rebounder)
Well put TM. Great blog btw, added to my list of sites to watch :)
TM Williams what you said is not correct
why not? give a plausible reason for once, or some justification (though that may be a problem for you)
You have no clue what you are talking about. How many games have you seen Scola play by the way? The guy would be an All Star on a mediocre team. With limited touches he is averaging a double-double and, yes, during some games he WAS the first option. This is his second season. Scola has 3 years of All-Star level basketball in him, thank god he is on the Rockets. Enjoy basketball purgatory.
The difference between Scola and Bosh is that Scola uses guile and craftiness which can only be learned through years of tough competition. In 5 or so years, Bosh is going to have these facets
I watched the Olympics. Bosh was the best big man on that team who played crunch time minutes. Nobody ’shut down’ Bosh, he was never more than the 3rd option on the floor at any given time. And he played his role fucking brilliantly. He parlayed that success into a dominant start to the season, which was derailed by a variety of things (Mitchell being fired, baby issues). He underperformed for the middle half of the season, and finished strong.
The fact that you are defending Scola vs. Bosh then that just invalidates everything else you say. The ROCKETS took the Lakers to 7 games, with Scola, Brooks, Artest, Battier, Landry, Hayes, Lowry all playing key roles. Mickael Pietrus is in the Finals, does that make him better than Durant?
I hope you come back with some more racist/sexist/otherwise derogatory comments, that really shows your intelligence too. Call me a retard or a fag, then challenge me to a fight. That’ll show everybody who’s right!
Oi! You’d trade a “Young Garbo” for “Young KG”. Costra, you’re knowledge is fugazi.
Hey dipshit stop posting already.
Because Andrea is the better player right now. You let Calderon give him the touches he gives Rupaul and he would have 20 points a game too.
- Andrea has a post game and a better defender. Good midrange game and has more real talent and a better IQ then Bosh.
What are you basing that on? Statistically, Bargnani has a below league average PER of 14.66, compared to Bosh’s efficient 22.19.
In terms of usage, Bosh averaged a mere four possessions per 40 minutes more than Andrea this year, and yet still managed to have an EWA (estimated wins added) more than 11 points higher than AB.
That’s nuts! Bosh touched the ball only marginally more than Bargnani did, and shot it with a greater true shooting percentage, committed less turnovers, his possessions ended in way more assists and his rebounding rates both offensive and defensive blow AB out of the water.
Moreover, Bosh outscored his position on the other team all year, while Bargnani was in the negatives for the Raps at the 5 spot even after he picked up his play early January. Consider that — he averaged over 20ppg and yet we were still losing points with him on the floor. What does that tell you?
Just because AB can get buckets doesn’t mean he’s winning us any ball games. Those are two incredibly different things (just look at how important Shane Battier was this year). Winning and scoring aren’t always the same thing in basketball, and what Bosh has right now is a team of scorers around him.
The Raps need to go get some winners.
*heart*
If Andrea Bargnani had to shoulder 27% of the Raptors’ offensive load, his percentages (which are far inferior to Bosh) would nosedive. In fact, each time Bargnani has approached that usage rate (usually when Bosh was out), his efficiency plummeted. Quite simply, Bargnani at this point in his career should not be relied on as a number one option. As an offensive player, Bosh is head and shoulders ahead of him.
no, he’s not the ‘better’ player. in a trade, he simply wouldn’t return much of anything.
I’m not sure I agree with that. You might be able to get fair value for Bargs due to his upside. With Bosh you know you can’t get 100% value in return, because All-Stars rarely return equal value. Not that I’m necessarily suggesting trading Bargs (although I don’t oppose it, given the right offer).
Great post Arse.
Everything you said was true and we have to let him go for the good of the franchise. What i dont want to hear is people start complaining if we lose when he’s gone. Everyone needs to understand that if Bosh goes we are looking for the future (but with such a weak Eastern Confrence we still might contend for a playoff spot). This team needs to become more athletic and tough and we need a player to come in and give off that vibe. Chris Bosh is not the answer to our problem he had 5 years to prove us he was the answer. The only answer Bosh can be now is the answer to us rebuilding faster…
I think Arsenalist is the only one on here who knows what he’s talking about. The rest are complete morons LOL
even me?
I think everyone (especially the authors) know what they are talking about and bring good and varied viewpoints
Hey, that type of balanced view point and outright encouragement has no place in the comment section of this blog, you moron :)
These Middle eastern act so tough so me being Italian I laugh it off. LOL. Don’t know anything about basketball.
Anytime you want to contribute something, I’ll publish anything you write. We will even accept your submission in crayon and cardboard.
I would think so since that’s your average Middle Easterns IQ. Keep acting Like a thug though. I know what you look like already so I’ll come up to you when i see you
Don’t mess up my hair, that’s all I ask.
http://raptorsrepublic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/sam.jpg
Wouldn’t make sense either way you would Just get a beating and I would get in trouble. I’m just going to stick to talking about basketball on here.
Raptors will never know what they have until they lose it! How many ex-raptors have championships?!!! Do the math. Chris Bosh wants to win a championship, let alone be a contender for one. if the organization isn’t serious about winning a championship, then why are they wasting the players’, fans’, as well as their own time. Colangelo even said something like “my job was to come here and make a better basketball team” so who’s time are they really wasting?? This is the same organization that runs the Toronto Maple Leafs. Pun intended!!
Agreed.
Rapsfan I keep owning you time and time again. Tell me exactly how Bosh is better then Luis Scola? Your only retort is,
” you’re an idiot Bosh is a 20/10 player”
So what exactly has that 20/10 got us? 15th in the east every year.
All joking and hostility aside…you seriously can’t think that Bargnani is better then Bosh after reading what Simon and TM Williamson wrote above can you? Come on man. Bargnani is a limp noodle. The guy is a talented scorer, but he does nothing else.
Bargnani is an evolving player. In his first year he was our 3-point hero and nothing much more. In his second season, Smitch asked him to crash the basket and Bargs obliged … learning on the job in the NBA … brutal. In his third season his enlarged game started to emerge and he was becoming a reasonable player … maybe not a Dirk, but acceptable. Bargs has a lot more upside than Bosh .. even though he may not be ‘better’ than Bosh.
Are you unwilling to give Bargs more time to develop? Do you believe Bosh has more upside talent playing with the Ratpors? What if Bosh tells BC he wants to leave to play on a team that will make him look better and more valuable towards a playoff standing?
Assume that Bosh wants to leave the Ratpors and then make your prognostications.
I think if you put better talent around Bosh we still loose. What happened when we had talent? We lost to New jersey in 6 games wit Bosh disappearing in games 4 and 5. He also got to play with Vince carter and what happened? the best PG tandem in Ford/Calderon? That’s right, nothing happened. The guy has no post game or passing skills to speak of for a PF.
So how do you rate Bosh? Where does he stand in your books? I’m really interested in this.
Below Luis Scola, presumably above DJ Mbenga.
What talent are you talking about? Vince was gone when Bosh was 21, you can’t use that.
Shareef Abdur rahim.
20/10 for 12 seasons and the team made the playoffs 0 times.
Today’s game: He’s not a as talented, overall as Pau Gasol, Dirk, David West,Scola, Bynum, Duncan, Garnette, Shaq, Amare, Al Jefferson.
Any current PF/Centre in the L will tell you that he is the softest player in the L for his size.
His best role is when he’s works as a high energy man as a 3rd or 4th option. ( Olympics, All Star games).
1st option? You gotta be kidding me
he’s better than david west, and i reckon he’s on the same level as Pau Gasol. So he’s not a first option, he’s more of a 1 1/2 or a 2. And BTW I wouldn;t hand Bargs the reins to the offence since he’s only proved he’s a good player for half a season
OMG….getting tired of this….it’s “lose,” not “loose!”
The only way Bosh will stay with the Ratpors is if he accepts the reality that he will not get max money as the salary cap goes down for next season, and the impact of the global recession eats away at discretionary entertainment money. He will be asked to sacrifice money because the team needs more and better role players … and the MLSE will not accept paying luxury tax.
Would Bosh accept a long term, reduced salary contract to stay with the Ratpors .. or will he pass on any extension and play the 2010 market??
If you were Bosh’s agent, what would you advise him …???!!!!
Furthermore …. the Ratpors will not make the 2009-10 playoffs with the current roster, and making trades that will upgrade the team looks unlikely.
Will Bosh accept such a future scenario … or would he prefer to be traded quickly?
The bottleneck on the Ratpors is Bosh … keep him and the team gets bunged up … trade him and the team experiences a player enema …
So …I wake up. I read Raps Fan’s Tweet. Oh, let’s check this out I say.
Hmm, this is quite interesting. *continues reading*
Hmm, this has gotten even more interesting. *continues reading*
Aww man, it’s settled down. lol
But on the real, both of you present good arguments and this just goes to show the passion of Raps Nation. There are so many scenarios that can take place this summer and it’s probably one of the most important summer’s for the team.
But, next time there’s a cage match in a reply thread, someone please notify me earlier? :) Thanks. lol
LMAO
Sorry to disappoint. I’m sure Cosa will call me an idiot soon enough and this will all start over again.
or Khandor will pipe in and be sure to set off a totally different group of bloggers.
Hey why don’t I fill in for all of Cosa Nostra;s new posts.
- Bosh is crap because he just is, argument setteled
- If you disagree, than you are stupid, most likely due to your race
- You are an idiot and I will smash your face in just to prove it
- @Raps Fan, let me provid a resonable arguement to you now. Put Bosh on a team with 14 hall of famers, and he wuld be the 15th best player on that team, see how crap he is
- You are al retads, except for Arsenalist
- Lets trade Bosh for Sagana Diop and Vladimir Radmanovic
- You should stop kissing Bosh’s ass, and lern abot Barsketbal lik me
HA HA Ha
Arsenalist,
I still keep wondering WHY it’s such a big loss, if Bosh just walks away. Is that option really such a doomsday scenario. As I see it, our payroll (as it stands now) would be about 35 million without Bosh (plus additions next year). As well, Kapono and Banks would be easier to move, since 2010-11 would be their final year.
If we do a Bosh sign and trade, can we really get something back that would be better then what we could get in the 2010-11 free agency market. I still believe the economics for that time, will grant us better buys (free agents), then it would today.
As well, I fear a course of action designed to retain Bosh, will affect player & rookie development, plus alter our draft selections towards NBA ready players. I’d rather move up, then try to climb that ladder too fast.
weeellll…what’s the rap’s track record for attracting FA’s to date? although i’m not of the mind that guys simply don’t want to play in TO, i’m trying to think of a case where they lured a top FA up north. so, you let bosh walk, no big woop, with all that cap space, just go sign a top-tier FA or two, or use the cap space to pull a trade. problem is, nothing in the rap’s history suggests that either are viable options.
Trading Bosh now because his value is perceived to be at its high water mark for his career to-date is indicative of “average-to-poor GM” thinking.
A Top Notch GM, with aspirations of actually winning a NBA Championship with the Raptors someday in the future, would find a way to hold onto Bosh & Calderon … while continuing to build the team around them.
If a deal comes along that improves the team, short & long term, you take that option.
If no deal is presented, you do not sell off your team’s best asset … out of fear … in return for assets that do not improve your team. That’s what sad-sack outfits do when times get tough.
If Bosh walks away next summer, in the worst case scenario, what you do at that point is take that Salary Cap Space which you then have at your disposal and continue to build your team, making the best of the resources you have.
Bosh was a solid pick at #4.
Bargnani was the problem pick at #1.
You do not get rid of Bosh and stick with Bargnani, instead, if you’re a Top Notch GM in the NBA.
Now … if your goal is to “make money” for your organization while putting a “competitive team” on the floor year after year, then trading Bosh is what you’re thinking about right now.
It’s a loser-way of thinking, in comparison with teams like the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics and Magic.
And Detriot, Khan?
Are you saying that BC doesn’t aspire to actually win a championship with the Raptors someday in the future?
I actually don’t disagree with the argument here, just the random capitalization and unnecessary “quotes”. Still, you shouldn’t trade Bosh out of fear if you aren’t getting fair return on your dollar.
the “trade bosh” arguments always seem to fail on the same contradiction. they say i) we cannot win a championship with bosh as our best player and ii) lets trade him for two good players.
what this fails to identify is how exactly the raptors will get a “top 5 in the NBA” player.
let’s look at facts. bosh is between 10-20 in pretty much every PER-like meta stat there is. he is a 4-time all-star (the coaches obviously know something). he was on the olympic team and got real minutes (the selection folks obviously know something). he played last year with his point guard hurt and some real personal issues that would have affected all of us in our jobs.
with the exception of the NFL, every other major sport sees a player’s best years as 26-30. bosh is 25.
with an NBA roster you need to get value on your big $$ contracts. check here http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm at the 26 players who make more than bosh. I would take two (yao, kobe) over him given age. that’s it!
we can win a championship with a max bosh IF we draft well, find some value in our league min players and are able to deal with the bad contracts. same as 6-10 other teams btw.
after kobe, bron, wade, howard and paul you can make an argument that bosh is as good as anyone.
great attitude. great work ethic. great leader. great player. the good thing is colangelo gets that.
enoss,
I agree. The good thing is that Bryan Colangelo does seem to get this about Chris Bosh.
The bad thing is, however, that Bryan Colangelo has yet to show the type of ability it takes to assemble the right pieces around a player like Chris Bosh … who, IMO, is a fairly unique player in today’s game with a specific skill set that requires a particular group of teammates if he is going to lead them to a NBA championship, as a non prime-time scorer.
While Jose Calderon is a good start, there are simply not enough other high end players on the roster yet … at managable salary levels … to accomplish anything close to reaching that objective.
* Draft, draft and draft. There’s your way to get your next great player. I hear ya on swapping him for two good players will just be a trade-off but I firmly believe that we cannot win anything with Bosh as our best player and that needs to be fixed, no reason why we can’t get draft picks too.
* Bosh might have great work ethic but he is not a great leader and definitely not a “great” player. Yelling at Moon for blowing a defensive assignment and then proceeding to blow ten of your own is not great leadership.
* He is a good player but I fear that given our reluctance to go over the cap combined with his need to play with two All-Stars to produce any kind of results isn’t going to be possible.
* I liken him to Gasol, good player on his own, great player when he’s with Kobe but most importantly, not great on his own.
* As for the link to salaries, I have no problem with Bosh signing an extension at 14M per year. 22M is a different matter, that difference is enough to cover 80% of an All-Star’s salary.
So if Bosh = Gasol, and Gasol was traded for 2 live bodies and a hacky sack, why are you suggesting we trade Bosh? Obviously Memphis took it hard in that trade, but trades where a star is traded for fair value are very rare.
The only reason to trade him is if you feel the complimentary players on the roster aren’t good enough, and can’t be improved enough, to win in Bosh’s prime. I don’t think that’s the case.
I agree with the Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul group. Not sure you can put Howard in there (he can’t single-handedly win games because he has no real offensive moves). If those are the only ‘great’ players in the league, then Bosh isn’t great. Otherwise, Bosh is a great player in this league.
BTW, Moon is on the court for defense. He must play defense. I have no problem with Bosh insisting on Moon playing better defense.
memphis is still a bit of mess, but they would be a mess whether they traded gasol or not…actually, given his salary, you could argue they’re (significantly) better off. they were able to turn one gasol into another (who’s actually a decent C), and have the start of what could be a pretty decent outfit down there. they will, of course, find a way to fuck it all up, but still. the parallels to the raps are actually kinda numerous, except that their young talent is actually talented…
conley’s shown some promise. don’t really need to say much about mayo or gay…they’re borderline great players, whether they learn to play great basketball together remains to be seen. gasol looks to be solid at the 5 for years to come. they have a good pick in this draft. would it surprise anyone if the griz actually made something of themselves over the next season or two? would anyone be shocked if they won a playoff series (playoffs!) before the raps do? they have what seems to be a solid core, they need to build around those guys & manage their assets properly.
Arsenalist,
* IMO, Bosh would not have yelled at Moon, the way he did, if Sam Mitchell was still the coach of the team … or, someone with the attributes Sam has.
* Good players need other good players on their team, in order to succeed in a major way. A lot of good players, not just one or two.
* Great players need other good players on their team, in order to succeed in a major way, as well.
* Having a bunch of good players on your team and one or two great players, as well, is what it ususally takes to be able win a NBA championship.
* Please do not make the common mistake of thinking that a player who has:
- a Top Notch attitude
- good leadership skills
- an awareness of his limitations
- outstanding creativity, imagination, & curiosity about life
- the ability to play WITH other good-great teammates
- the ability to Rebound
- the ability to Team Defend [including vs Pick & Roll/Pop situations]
- the ability to Block Shots, coming from off the ball
- the ability to run the floor
- the ability to score the ball
- the ability to get to get fouled and make his FT’s
- the ability to play the CENTER position, as the Hub of the TEAM
- the willingness to pass the ball to open teammates
is something other than a Franchise Player … because he doesn’t conduct himself, or perform during key phases of specific games, quite like MJ, Oscar, Magic, Larry, Kobe, D-Wade or Lebron.
* Please do not make the common mistake of thinking that a Franchise Player MUST also be a team’s Clutch Scorer, or display highly visible signs of “intensity”, at all times, or a “cutthroat” attitude … so as to avoid be labelled as a “softie”.
IMO, Chris Bosh is nothing like Pau Gasol … physically, mentally, emotionally, and/or skill wise.
Chris Bosh is a “poor man’s” version of an all-time great player, who was never a great scorer in his own right but was definitely the FULCRUM on the teams which he Captained and coached in the NBA, which were championship-worthy 11 times … and, who was fortunate enough to link up with a fabulous head coach/GM, early in his career who knew how to let these attributes flourish at the heart of their team, spilling over to each player on the squad and creating a culture of excellence overall.
The main problems which the Raptors face are NOT rooted in the performance or the character of Chris Bosh [or Jose Calderon].
Bosh is a foundation player that any team which aspires to win a championship would love to have on their squad as a Center-piece.
The Raptors won 47 games during the 2006-2007 season … with Chris Bosh, as their Center.
If they play Chris Bosh as their Center, with Jose Calderon as their Point Guard, the Raptors are 2/5ths of the way to building a high calibre team.
It’s a shame that their talents have been largely wasted over the last 2 seasons.
I was with you until you said “pass”.
Chris Bosh is willing, but unable, to pass to open teammates. I always said if only he could average 5 assists per game the Raptors would be a contender.
While this could be a skill that he might develop, it is not a skill he has.
That list of top salaries is a pretty amazing cautionary tale. Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Zach Randolph! It suggests on the one hand that the league is full of questionable GMs, but it also proves that getting a return on your investment is no given.
I don’t see any reason that Bosh deserves to climb that much higher on the list, and I’m sure the Invisible Hand will ultimately determine his value.
The only fault I see is that if you are trying to look at salary as an important measure for a players value, the current list is misleading. In two years time when Lebron, Carmelo and Wade are rightly on top, and Marbury, Francis, Wallace etc have finally expired, a GM might feel foolish for putting Bosh amongst the top 5 or 6 highest paid players. At that point the value you are getting for the $$s is much more suspect.
Fuck it. They should trade Bosh, Bargnani and Calderon too. Blow it up good.
This is a stupid idea!!!!!
First of all, we have to face the reality, its true that I don’t think bosh and brag. could bring Raptors to a higher land.
However, trade bosh could bring 2 good body in toronto?????(bosh just better than average) or trade brag. could bring 1 good body to toronto???? r u sure???
Bosh is a not a great player but better than average, and he is the best in the Raptors land rite now. I believe bosh max. could bring 2 average players or 2 overpay players or some draft pick to tornto. So, who will be the leader after bosh or even brag. gone??? Raptors is a low reputation team in nba, the reputation just go lower after carter,bosh away. And will has any good or great player come to service this city. As a result, the future of raptors just keep re-build,then good player leave, rebuild, then good play leave……and so on.
NO doubt, Heats may use 20+ millions to sign with D wade, but Raptors still hast to spend 20+ millions to sign with the type of player like bosh at 2010. So, how come still has some ppl believe we could sign some good player come to toronto if we have money on hand.
If you still wanna trade bosh, then i am very agree with sam said: “They should trade Bosh, Bargnani and Calderon”, or maybe even the whole team. Just let raptors be the next LA clippers.
who the fuck is ‘brag.?’
I would love to retain bosh for less than the max but face it Bosh will not leave all that money on the table to stay with a mediocre franchise. Bosh can wait it out until 2010 and can have his choice of playing with Lebron, Wade, or for D’antoni and the Knicks.
The raptors will have to trade Bosh after he declines the offer by BryCo (why wouldn’t he just wait for the 2010). Instead of making the same mistake we made with Vince lets atleast trade bosh at his highest value. I really don’t want to go into next year with Bosh not signed and having that dark cloud over the team for the whole season.
I wish we can somehow luck out and get Evans at the 9 (very unlikely) and buy pick in the 20s and get either a big or another swing man.
It would be disastrous for the Ratpors playing next season with Bosh playing out his contract with the intent of walking in 2010. It would be like watching a zombie playing in jersey #4 (CZ4). BC cannot allow such a dismal situation to develop … He must either force Bosh to accept a reasonable extension or else get traded this summer. I can see no other alternatives.
Arse makes some good points. I’ll just add that if we’re trading Chris Bosh, I want Jose Calderon to be dealt as well. Some may say that his contract is fair value for Calderon, I disagree. I think, beginning next year particularly, you’re going to see Caldy’s salary spike to 9 mil and then 9.5, and then 10 mil…I think that’s just too excessive for Calderon. Calderon shouldn’t be considered a core piece IMO. He’s a great role player, glue guy, definitely. I just think he’s expendable, especially if we obtain a PG in this draft (I think it’s likely we do this with another 1st rd. pick). Bargnani, on the other hand, I’d keep, ’cause I think he’s finally turning the corner. Although, I agree with the majority here, Bargnani won’t fill Bosh’s shoes if he’s traded. But, I think it’s reasonable to expect a Mehmet Okur or close to it type years from him as soon as next year.
So to sum up my thoughts, I think if you’re trading Bosh, you trade Calderon as well.
PATTY MILLS!!!!!!!!!!
What would teams like Detroit or Cleveland have to offer? nothing! Trading bosh could be a little tricky because if you do, you want good young prospects in return and top level draft picks. . . We can’t give him up for hamilton or prince, those guys are in their mid to late 20s, we need to build this team properly through the draft like the blazers, or oaklaholma, If bosh goes we’ll be really exposed due to the lack of rebounding. . . whose gonna be the guy that gets boards? bergnani? HAHA! If you can trade bosh you gotta get rid of calderon as well because lets face it, he’s 28 29, he’ll have nomore room to grow. . . So if you wanna maximize your acids why not use calderone as a chip as well?
Chris Bosh traded to the heat for michael beasley, haslem, some filler, maybe getting our 2010 draft pick back???
Bosh needs to be retained until the 2010 trade deadline and then if the team is still going nowhere you trade him to a contender for draft picks.
Give this core one more chance to prove themselves. If they can’t, you start all over again.
Rebuilding sucks ass. Let’s see if we can possibly avoid it.
Let me take a crack at this, I’m starting to hate watching him play. He looks like a pansy out there, to my eyes. He didn’t even challenge shots. Other players in the league, like Shaq, Z-Bo, Bogut, Granger, Amare and KG, feel they can shove him or just run their mouth on him. It’d be okay if they did it because he plays them tough, but it’s the opposite. They do it because he’s never been one to stand-up for himself or his team mates. It’s funny he’s supposed to be our “franchise guy” and it seems our Gm and coach state that the franchise’s goal is to break from the very culture he represents: To be tough and to play defence so we are not taking the ball out of the basket every time so we can get out and run. How much of that is Chris Bosh and how much of that is to counter Chris Bosh. We have very limited tools, especially if Marion leaves, to try to change our culture. You can’t just bring in a rookie wing and think that’s enough to affect the kind of change our Gm talks about.
By trading Bosh, not for nothing, but from a relative position of strength, and before his flaws are further exposed, perhaps we are able to improve those areas and play good basketball. Let’s not forget we hired a sports psychologist this year, who is now involved in all draft evaluations unlike previous years. Do you think that Bosh, who for some reason was going for really good at the start of the year, to calling out fans, and bumbling passes, dribbling off his foot, making bad decisions and being slow to react, was somehow related to him breaking under the pressures of playing for and audience that had expectations and was willing to call him out when he was not playing hard. Our home record was awful, and it hasn’t been stellar for a few years. And Bosh has been commenting in the atmosphere at the ACC and how it affects his play for a few years too, any coincidence. This year, I doubt Bargs was the cause for the shrink hire, he had his best year, and José was injured, who else would they bring someone like that in for? I know there’s no “I” in team, but there’s also no “I” in Bosh post game comments. He came off to me as always blaming others.
I’ve said this before, I think that little hanger on he’s got around him and the whole contrast situation confused him about who works for who, and he goes back and fourth between being too comfortable, and too on edge here, either lax, or forcing it. It was hard to find the important “in-between” and focus this year. I guess I would not be so strongly opinionated if it was just a shift on court that I noticed. But I follow Bosh on Twitter and I’ve seen all his videos. I liked Tech geek Bosh, I laugh at tech geek Bosh trying to be a gansta celeb. Look at him in his vids and how he acts and he’s not being himself. Makes me thing he’s in some dream land, like when he kept insisting we were still in the playoff race last year when we really weren’t. We need every team ahead of us to lose all of their games. I can sum my feeling up on him this by directing you to him post game comment about how we need to be intense and impose our will, never owning up to any of it himself, and then go watch the game in Boston, when Kg put his face right in Bosh’s grill, and Bosh couldn’t muster the courage to do anything about. I think Chris Bosh is a good man; he’s just young and has got some leaches around him. I think he will figure it out, but there needs to be a bump in the road for that to happen. We need a change, and he needs a change.
GREAT POST….YOU FORGOT PONYTAIL MAN.
You know, someone who choses as a nickname ‘Cosa Nostra’ – that is, the Sicilian Mafia – should be banned from his country for dishonor and treason. And of course, shouldn’t think about basketball but about himself and his set of values…LAME LAME LAME LAME.
i don’t want to give up on the dream of a deadly offensive frontcourt, mixed in with a versatile small foward, a versatile two, and a pass first point guard that can shoot. i believe colengelo is trying to design a team that is deadly at all five postions on the offensive side, i just don’t know if it will work.
i don’t believe that “we gotta get tougher talk they are all proclaiming” they just want that one singleton, varejao, anderson, hustle player off the bench that causes havoc, which i think they found in pops. otherwise its about scoring the ball.
nevertheless, watching every team on the league pass, the raps frontcourt was one of the more interesting ones to watch. adding a prototypical two guard, might turn us into the finesse team that just flat-out outscores you.
if we lose bosh for nothing, i will be upset. you would figure that bosh would tell BC that he wants out so he can move him accordingly. the trade would also have to include either a kapono or a banks.
otherwise i want to see this frontcourt together combined with the 3 (marion) and a two guard that can do things and see if it could work.
Trade Bosh for Ginobli, the Red Rocket Bonner, and a future first round pick from the Spurs. They might do well with Bosh over the next few years, but they are going to suck down the road.
Ginobli is way too old and injury-prone for Bosh and the first round pick from the spurs will be late-first round.
PLEASE LISTEN!!! Raptors management, the Rockets would like to discuss trading McGrady’s expiring contract for Bosh and a few other players. Just do it.
bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha
keep smoking the rock bro.
what do you guys think of a trade that is based around trading Bosh for Boozer?
What do people think about this trade?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qrkwjg
Add in a first round going to Toronto, and I really feel like we improve our team.
BassJunkie,
With a first rounder added in, it’s not a terrible trade for the Raptors. What it is, however, is a terrible trade for Chicago … which, IMO, the Bulls would have zero interest in making.
Do you really want so much money invested in two injury prone, borderline all-stars. Especially Deng, I don;t trust his injury prone-ness
Chris Bosh for Rodney Carney.
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