Bosh had something to play forIt ends the way it began: with an unlikely win on the road. This time it was against the Bulls who had everything to play for as a win would’ve avoided the Celtics in favor of the Magic. The gunning Raptors jumped on them early and maintained the defensive effort for the entire 48 minutes making Chicago look very ordinary and constricted. The smart money would’ve been on the Bulls winning this one but it seemed like the pressure got to them as their offense looked very tense. The Raptors were the complete opposite and played hard and free basketball and it all worked out. The season on the other hand, didn’t, and let not any win mask or sugar-coat that fact.
A 12 point jumper-driven first quarter by Chris Bosh kick-started the game for us and took the early wind out of Chicago. Shawn Marion had his run ‘n gun game going with Anthony Parker and Jose Calderon doing a good job of one-dribbling and providing the early outlet to expedite the defense-to-offense switch. Marion’s 10 points – all short hooks/jumpers – gave John Salmons enough to think about on defense that he forgot about his offense for the second straight game against the Raptors. Kapono checked in early in the second quarter and drained two no-hesitation threes in transition and suddenly we had a 20 point lead. The Bulls were running into their own players on high screens and their bigs were clogging the lane for their guards, it was comical.
The main implication of being a jump-shooting team is that for every hot-shooting stretch you’ll go through, you’ll go through a cold one. That came in the second quarter as Noah remained unfazed by Bosh’s early jumpers and continued to give him space, Bosh naturally took it and missed. On the other end the Bulls wisely discarded their offensive sets in favor of going one-on-one through Ben Gordon and Derrick Rose. Roko did a solid job on Rose early and took him to the rim on a couple occasions but after a Chicago timeout where Vinny Del Negro challenged Rose by handing him Roko’s resume, he quickly responded. Some great pushing of the rock in transition by Rose led to Chicago opportunities and carved open the Raptors defense which was otherwise playing good scouting-report based basketball – concede the jumper to those who can’t shoot and tighten up on those who can, Rose and Gordon respectively. That changed in the second.
Ben Gordon decided that he’d make an example out of Anthony Parker and torched him on four straight possessions, one of them involving a series of step-back fakes followed by a drive which had Parker begging for an ankle-brace. A 21-4 Chicago run cut the lead to three and this appeared to be going in the direction of the bookies as the Raptors called timeout. As seen all season, when the opposing guard is allowed to get into the lane using a screen our hedge/recovery and communication is poor which leads to chaos on the defensive end. This little stretch was just that – a cruel reminder of how vulnerable we are. What came out of the timeout was a 13-4 run keyed by a couple terrible Bulls turnovers in their own backcourt and some anticipatory play by Calderon against Rose. The Raptors took an 11 point lead into halftime.
One thing I’ve noticed and haven’t talked about enough. Jason Kapono might not get his ankle broken on highlight-reel players often but the man has never been able to keep his defender from driving to the elbow area and that’s enough to force help thus invoking rotations. Usually his man is always able to create by driving 8 feet in and kicking out to a wing who will naturally help, even though it’s not part of a defensive plan. He hit two threes in that second quarter but if you look at the Bulls scoring opportunities that result from his defensive play you realize he’s not worth it. A bit of a fraud if you ask me.
Chris Bosh needed 18 rebounds to average 22/10 and he knew it. He went after the boards like a man possessed and got his 18th early in the fourth, was he playing a little extra hard today? Yes, yes he was. There’s no denying it whatsoever, I’m not saying he takes nights off but today he played harder than in most games. I don’t care, he did some stat-padding, which Raptor hasn’t done that? After the game he said that the current roster as it stands would’ve gotten home-court in the East:
We’ve been playing fantastic the last two or three weeks. I wish we could’ve had this group the whole season. I feel we could’ve gotten homecourt if we had this nucleus.
He’s wrong and I hope Colangelo is smarter than Bosh when it comes to seeing this recent play in proper context. Just consider the strength of the schedule and number of home games we’ve had and you’ll see that this isn’t the stretch of games to extrapolate next season from.
The Raptors produced some excellent ball movement in the third quarter as Marion was vintage. Even though they didn’t score every time, the Raptors were practically on the break on every possession. Parker, Calderon and Marion had the V formation going with Calderon at the bottom, Marion on the left and Parker on the right flank. The Bulls appeared disjointed on both ends of the floor, couldn’t contend with our wings’ speed (I can’t believe I’m writing this) and appeared stuck in quicksand on the perimeter. Noah and Miller were the only two who were playing any consistent defense but they aren’t exactly shot-blocking threats which could scare off anyone. Rose and Gordon had a combined total of 7 points in the quarter as we took a 15 point lead into the fourth.
The defensive energy here was hard to explain, Jose stuck in front of Rose and was helped by the pick-setter’s man (usually O’Bryant) who pushed him him away from the paint on the high-screen making it difficult for him to turn. It’s amazing how a proper hedge can negate a threat, once Rose swung it back to the wing (usually Gordon or Salmons), Parker was playing him tight and the lane was being clogged by O’Bryant/Voskuhl who had recovered and the Bulls’ big who weren’t on the same page as the guards. This resulted in the Bulls guards forcing contested jumpers which played right in our hands.
The Raptors won the points in the paint battle 54-42 and had 19 fastbreak points. We attacked the rim AND ran the break, nice. I was expecting an obligatory fourth quarter run from the Bulls but it never came making it quite an uninteresting last quarter of Raptors basketball in 6 1/2 months. It’s been a crap season, no doubt, but this isn’t a mess that can’t be fixed. Either we’ll have to play the FA market and make a trade or two (possibly including Bosh) to retool this team for next year or we could go the rebuilding route. I think we’ll only rebuild if Bosh wants out and Colangelo’s hand is forced thus leaving him with no other option. I’m fine with either, just don’t sell me a steak and then only serve garden salad.
Liners:
- I thought the Bulls would’ve been much better off running isolation plays for Rose and Gordon instead of fighting through their lethargic offensive sets to create shots.
- Chris Bosh couldn’t get a handle on his 18th rebound as it went out of bounds. The scorer scored it as a rebound and a turnover.
- Roko Ukic: I love the guy, I really do, but I don’t feel comfortable with him as backup #1 because of his jumper, his loose handle and potential to be a complete waste on offense if the defense is sagging. If he can come to training camp with an improved outside shot it will help things.
- I have a hard time gauging Chris Bosh. Does he honestly think that this nucleus would get home-court in the East?
- Brad Miller likes to swing elbows, him and Patrick O’Bryant were going at it and after a dubious O’Bryant foul, Miller responded with the clear-out after the whistle had blown. Somebody needs to knock the f**k out of him, I know it ain’t gonna be Patrick.
- Speaking of Patrick, has he climbed over Pops in the depth chart? NO! He had a nice game: 27 minutes, 4-9, 9 points and 7 rebounds. His finishing around the rim is poor (not that Pops is great) and the majority of his points in real meaningful games will come from 12 feet out. He successfully rolled on the PNR a couple of times but also got blocked hard twice, he’s a little two-minded near the rim which scares me.
- This was Leo Rautins’ worst season. I can predict what he says 10 seconds before he says it.
- Shawn Marion was 15-18 for 34 points. Check out his shot-chart, its more congested than the Rail on a Friday.
- Paging Quincy Douby, paging Quincy Douby.
- Will not return: Jake Voskuhl, Nathan Jawai, Jason Kapono.
- The final record is 33-49, 4th in Atlantic Division, 13th in the Eastern Conference. We end on a three game winning streak and are picking 9th.
It’s been a great first year for Raptors Republic. On behalf of everyone here, thanks for supporting the site and do stick around for the summer as we’ll provide content, links, tweets, and whatever on a daily basis. Thanks also to ESPN and Henry Abbott for bigging us up. @arsenalist @altraps @rapsfan @raptorsrepublic. RSS Feed.
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Let me preface this by saying Bosh is a decent man and from that perspective I like him. I just think he speaks like someone who came out from an Anthony Robbins seminar, always trying to say the right thing, recalling the best cliches from pro sports, and never stopping to ask himself if he even believes what he’s saying. Sounding impressive and leaderly is no substitute for looking down the barrel of reality and accepting the responsibility to make things better.
He’s also high on the past couple of weeks’ worth of victories (and probably glad the season is finally over), so I can understand his euphoria.
As for BC, I go back to the day he fired Mitchell and he said “It’s on us now.” Sam could no longer be the reason for the poor team performance. So, what is the reason? Since he’s keeping Triano, presumably coaching isn’t the problem. (Hi, Sam.) Could it be the personnel? Well, duh! Even with inuries, the team record SINCE Mitchell left is unacceptable.
Losing his starting centre was actually a blessing and Bargnani more than filled the void. Losing his starting PG (and having him ineffective because of a lingering injury), yes, I see how that would have had an impact, but the really big problem was the backup PG position, and that is all on BC. He made a couple of poor choices. Then there ar all the other holes.
I still have some faith/optimism in Colangelo, but I’d have a lot more if he’d publicly state that he made some mistakes and that it’s up to him to fix them, and that he will fix them.
I agree with what you wrote about Bosh and what he says and how he conducts himself. But I think that speaks more about him be a good person, but still only 24/25 this season. He’s finding his way about what he truely believes and what he’s willing to fight for. Until he figures that out he’ll be spewing out the old cliches and what he THINKS he should say rather than standing up and declaring what he actually believes in, then actively doing something about getting what he wants (ie. playing hard, being a leader, fighting for victories, standingup for his teammates, etc.). I believe he’s on the right track. Be patient folks. Unfortunately I don’t think Bosh is patient.
****QUESTION: Have there EVER been an NBA champion that was LEAD by a 24/25 year old? Maybe LeBron this year but I can’t think of one in the last 25 years at least.
A CHAMPIONSHIP??????! THE FUCKER CAN’T EVEN WIN A SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES!!!
Shareef-Rupaul Bosh has won 3 playoff games in 2 series(!!!!!!) and got shut down by Mikki Moore while shooting 39.5% FG when we lost to the Nets.
What happened? I thought they were the “Atlantic Division Champions”?
NOBODY should be allowed to mention that 47 win season as some sort of a triumph because they got their asses kicked by a team supposedly worse than them. Jason Kidd AVERAGED a freakin’ triple double against them.
Bosh is a stat padder who “led” us into the league basement.
I agree. I dont recall a time he has led us to a win over Utah, Lakers, Detroit, Phoenix, Boston the last 3-4 seasons. He is a 3rd option player not a 1st
Magic won it his rookie season as a 21 year old..
YA…I thought about Magic but that was 28 years ago and he has massive veteran leadership on that team. I wouldn’t call him the leader of that team. The same goes for Wade and Duncan. They weren’t the “leaders” of that team. Bosh IS the “leader” and has zero veterans around him….PLUS he ain’t no Magic or Duncan or even Wade.
Recently?
Tim Duncan.
Dwayne Wade.
See above…
Never posted comments much, but thank you Raptors Republic for providing the best pregame and postgame coverage anywhere, regardless of medium. This page was pretty much the second page (after Gmail) that I visited every day for most of the season. Great job, guys.
I second that notion!
seconded!
tripled?
I think that there is a little more truth in what Chris Bosh said about the team, then you are willing to admit. I mean honestly, Calderon, Marion, Bosh and Bargnani, as the nucleus is fucking dope man. Give them a clean slate next year, and a slightly better bench and yeah, I feel like they could be dangerous next year although challenging for homecourt in the East, might be a stretch. Just some minor tweaks and we could be right back up in this bitch. BC and company need to get this draft straight, and find us a SG with a defensive mentality and a little offence to go with it. Hopefully they can trade one of Kapono, or Banks, and fill up a need at the two guard. I am still not sold on AP coming back, however if he is cheap, I am all for it. He is a serviceable back-up guard in this league at this point in his career.
I think Humphries is now expendable, although who wants him? A lot of questions marks…some major holes (SG, SF), it will defintley be interesting to see what happens.
Yes….everyone beyond the top 4 are sketchy at best.
yeeeah…what a nucleus… too bad Marions not coming back next year because he wants to play for an ACTUAL WINNER
I was thinking the following the entire 2nd half: Bosh sets a personal goal of 18 rebounds to get his 10-a-game avg. and finishes with 19. Should we be impressed? or infuriated? i.e. why doesn’t he do this more often?
“This was Leo Rautins’ worst season”
- I’m curious if he ever had a good one?
All he talks about are the players he “played with” (seriously… riding the pine for a few teams doesn’t mean you played with or against the guy. I watched some of the greats from my couch… it wasn’t as close as leo’s seat but I bet it was alot more comfortable).
Which NBAers have “mens bodies” (I’m pretty sure D-Howard gives him a total hard on. I swear you hear him talk about Howards body every 5 minutes during Orlando games. Maybe thats why the Swirsk left…. Leo got a little to touchy feely after Dwight dunked it).
I will say I agreed with him for almost the entire game last night… which is a very rare occurence.
You agreed with him because most of what he says is obvious. When a jumper goes in he’s praising it and when it doesn’t he says drive to the rim, he should be saying to take it to the rim right after the first jumper went in (Bosh last night).
Overall, he’s poor and worn out.
but he is great for the casual/new fan. He dumbs things down, which pisses off the regular viewers, but for the folks that tune into 6-10 games a year, he does a great job of handholding.
sometimes, in pointing out the ‘obvious’ he directly contradicts himself. I can’t count the number of occasions that Will Solomon would jack a three and Leo would scold him by saying: “there is a reason that the defense is giving him that shot. He needs to look for other alternatives,” and then later in the game, if Solomon makes a three: “the defense gave it to him, and that is a shot he needs to make to teach the defense that they gotta play up on him because he can burn ya.”
He does the same with Bosh and whether he should shoot or drive. Leo’s motto: if it worked, then that was the right decision. if it didn’t then he needed to do something else.
This was Leo and Jack’s worst season by far. This is directly and entirely due, IMO, to the firing of Chuck and the hiring of Devlin. You don’t even need to be a Chuck fan, in fact you can hate him, and still see how this is true. Devlin is so boring, and sometimes doesn’t even call plays, or is seconds behind the action when he is commenting, that Leo and Jack try to bring excitement to the broadcast (especially Jack), and end up talking way more than they should. Leo, sometimes, I feel just wants to stop the silence. Chuck, on the other, dominated the play by play, and then he would defer to Leo after a given play in order to give his analysis.
Jack and Leo have become part analysts and part play-by-play because of Devlin – that is bad.
I’m not so sure on this being Jack’s worst season. Out of the two, nay, out of all the colour guys and analysts, I think he’s my favourite, because he doesn’t shy away from the truth.
For some part of this season, it seemed like he was treading the company line, but he seemed to go back to his genuine analytical mindset on the FAN 590 shows, where he basically called out our roster, and talked about how the roster itself is deficient. That’s calling out his boss, Colangelo directly, and that, in and of itself, merits respect.
As for Devlin and Rautins…get that gahhhhbage outta heeeyah.
Too little too late from this Raptor team and I hope BC is smarter than Bosh and does not believe this is a solid home court advantage playoff team. The last couple of weeks they’ve played mostly bums and still shown brain lapses, so don’t kid yourselves this is still a crappy team that needs an overhaul and chemistry, and a tougher disciplined coach who takes no crap from star players.
Here’s hoping!!
That said thanks to arsenalist, rapsfan, and altraps ( plus anyone else involved) for this site. You posted great pre and post game coverage, great links, and there have been many great points, discussions, arguments, etc…
All in all kept me entertained, giving me a place to vent, and occasionally celebrate. I even enjoyed the banter with guys I totally disagree with like IMO you know who!!
All the best!
Wasn’t Sam Mitchell a “tougher disciplined coach who takes no crap from star players”? Body-slamming Vince onto a massage table, making Rafer Alston cry and calling out (forget the name of that scrub center/pf he killed in the media after a game in Florida) in his first year seems to indicate a coach who doesn’t take crap from his best players.
By no means am I saying that it was a mistake to get rid of Mitchell. What I’m saying is that a hard-line disciplinarian (e.g. Messina) may not be the answer in the NBA where players have guaranteed contracts and coaches are a dime-a-dozen.
I’m talking about a tough minded coach like Messina, or Mitchell yes…difference is Mitchell cannot coach, makes horrible game decisions, cannot develop players, has obvious favorites, and again cannot coach at this level. Messina is a proven strategist that studies the game, teaches the game, and works tirelessly to get better. He changes his teams play game by game if necessary to take on the upcoming challenge knowing the same doesn’t work against all ( Scotty Bowman).
I’m curious about what you know of Messina, you always seem to big him up as a “tough minded” “hard nosed” “intense” coach.
I know what I’ve read and seen on clips and what I’ve heard from media and other players / coaches. That probably is not enough to know for sure, but I do not think that one of the out of work NBA coaches will work here either, and we’ve tried former NBA legends like Wilken’s who was a bust, and former players turned coaches like Darell Walker, and Sam Mitchell who were both awful. So why not someone with a completely different style who has won four Euroleague titles, coached club and national teams to titles, and has proven himself to be one of the most respected coaches in all of basketball? I have heard and read mostly hugely positive reviews about him and so on that basis and his record I keep referring to him because I believe he is what we need versus an out of work NBA former player. I may be the only one who thinks so but I do nonetheless.
Pizzaman,
Which is a different way of saying that … You don’t actually know anything about Ettore Messina, from a personal standpoint, at all.
———-
IMO …
* Brendan Malone was a first-class NBA head coach
* Darrell Walker was a poor NBA head coach
* Butch Carter was a solid NBA head coach
* Lenny Wilkens was a terrif NBA head coach [you simply do not get the chance to amass the most wins in NBA history AND the most losses in NBA history if you happen to be a bad coach, i.e. bad coaches get fired WAY before ever getting that opportunity]
* Kevin O’Neill was a poor NBA head coach
* Sam Mitchell was an average NBA head coach
* Jay Triano … time will tell but, thus far, I’ve seen both positives and negatives.
Messina has the goods to become a very good NBA head coach … given the right situatio … and the intelligence to know that, if he’s going to get that chance, he will need to conduct himself differently on this side of the pond than he’s been able to do to this point in his career. He’s a bright man who understands the game and knows the value of specificity.
I agree I really don’t know anything about Messina from a personal standpoint…why do you know him personally??? I’m not sure what you’re implying because I’m saying the same thing which is that I believe he has the goods to become a very good coach, and the intelligence to do so and I would give him the chance before someone else grabs him with Triano and Iavaroni assistants.
Cannot believe I’m saying the following but I agree with you on your assessment above on the former coaches other than Carter was a walking time bomb who had no idea when to shut up which led to his demise but I liked his coaching and toughness. Walker was not only poor but a bum. Wilkens has the record to deserve my respect as a great all time coach but he got nothing out of the Raptor team he coached and did a poor job while here which is what I evealuated him on. O’Neil awful, and Mitchell mediocre at best…but Mitchell was not well rounded and was not a players coach and could not develop talent in my opinion.
Triano is a players coach who they all love but I do not think has the toughness to dictate a game plan and make stars stick to it.
I think we agree that the team needs a better strategic coach who can respond to change. I just don’t think that those traits are necessarily married with a disciplinarian-type coach that Messina is known as.
I think in the NBA, the “players’ coach” is usually more successful than the disciplinarian, simply because the power base in the NBA is with the players, who are more apt to quit on a hard ass. Off the top of my head, the only coach that I can really call a “disciplinarian” is Skiles, and he’s already flamed out in two head coaching jobs.
Of course, he flames after a couple of years where he tends to get his team to overachieve, so he might be worth it for some teams, just to get that kick in the pants.
I’m likin Matrix at the 4 and Bosh at the 5. Definitely some huge quickness mismatches there on offense. Marion has always been a better PF than SF and can handle the defensive end pretty easily .. not sure about Bosh.
The beauty of our current front line is they are interchangeable parts. The Matrix is perfect at the 3 when Bargnani is in the game at the 5 (Bosh cannot handle most 5’s on D and very few teams will assign their 5 on Bosh on D). Bargs is a perimeter 5 (though he is slowly developing his low-block offence) and a poor rebounder (he did improved his box out “skills” but still needs to aggressively pursue the ball) and Matrix is a 3/4 that loves to rebound, dart into the key on O and can defend multiple positions…the 3 of them could really work well if Bargs can keep improving on D and Bosh can stay healthy and motivated on D (which I think he will if Bargs and a new starting SG can take some of the load off on O and Matrix and Bargs fill in on help D). Some big if’s though considering Marion’s an UFA and Bosh has the franchise in limbo while sitting on the fence.
If we can keep Shawn at a reasonable price ($5-6 mill per), find a starting 2 that can consistently penetrate and hit a mid-range jumper (draft?), find a back-up point guard that can dribble drive and play some D (maybe Roko but has allot holes in his game that need to improve greatly) this offence would sparkle (and compensate for our likley medoicre D). Hopefully one or two of our back-up bigs can step-up or be used as trade fodder to fill some holes on the bench but this is when BC needs to show us his worth. This is a big off-season that should keep us all interested till the fall…and what to do if Bosh sits on the fence all off-season??? Trade for less than his true value or play out the string and hope he signs a reasonable contract (ala Duncan) or let him walk and use the $15m to reload???…all we can do is wait and see.
Big ups to RR for giving us a forum for consistently entertaining discussion, debate, venting and ridiculing of opposing opinions. Enjoy the summer all.
Fully agree about the interchangeable player positions.
As for the summer, you’ll be surprised to see some big tings a’goan here.
Bargs is a 4 and he said it himself.
Who wins any games with a center whos not a good rebounder and doesnt bang in the post?
At least Bargs has shown that hes a legit starter, I see him breaking out next season once they shift him to the 4 after Bosh is shipped out.
Bargs has the skillset of a 3 with the body of a 5 but his game is evolving on both sides of the floor towards the post. He will be far more valuable as a 5 than a 4 (he can play both) once he starts to get his entire game together (rebounding, help D and low-post moves need to improve and he knows it). He’s shown he can man up on D against the 5’s in the league and block shots by simply playing in front of his man. Not too many 5’s can stay with him on O.
…and his own public statements are that he’s suited for both the 4 and 5 but all his comments about future development are based on being a low post threat and bulking up to improve his interior presence (rebounding, post D and low post scoring). Why move him to the four (a position loaded in the league) when he can be a stud 5 (rare)?
Bargnani does not have the skill set of a #3/PF … and, neither does Dirk.
Both of them lack the agility and the balance and the gifted coordination it takes to be an adequate #3/SF in the NBA … although each has requisite levels of talent in each of those areas to succeed as a #5/Center in the NBA.
IMO, Center … and NOT Power Forward, or Small Forward, is the single best position for both Dirk and Bargnani, in the NBA.
[in the Euroleague play, each could play the #4/PF spot without too much difficulty]
That said … IMO, it is very difficult to win playoff games with this type of player at either the #4/PF or the #5/C spot, unless he is coming off the bench with your 2nd Unit, ala James Edwards [from the Bad Boyz].
Can you define your ideal PF and ideal C in terms of the qualities and skillset they should possess
Brasky,
IMO, there is no “one” ideal of anything in this world.
Each of Russell, Reed, Abdul-Jabbar, Cowens, Chamberlain, Walton, Sikma, Unseld, Parrish, Malone, Olajuwon, Duncan, and O’Neal have been terrific Centers in the History of the NBA; while the same thing can be said for the likes of Lucas-J, Lucas-M, Silas, Hayes, McHale, Worthy, Rodman, Grant-Ho, Robinson, and Horry, as high calibre Power Forwards.
If I had my pick of all-time Centers and Power Forwards, respectively, I would gladly settle for players with the skill sets of The Great Bill Russell or Hakeem “The Dream” Olajuwon, and the mostly under-rated Dennis “The Worm” Rodman or “Big Game” James Worthy.
It’s hard to make player comparisons to a relatively unique player like Bargs, but if you’re comparing him to a “bad boy” it would have to be Bill Laimbeer, the near seven foot starting centre who caused match up problems due to his three point range…
Where did I say Bargs should play PF or SF?
…and James Edwards was a starter for the majority of his days with the Pistons.
…and why was Dirk brought into this?
…Dirk and Bargs can do just fine as 4’s in this league but can play either 4 or 5….and in the Euroleague they both could easily play the 4 or the 5 as well so not sure what your point is there.
What position do you think matches Bargs natural skill-set best? Long range shooter, dribble drive capabilities, decent at finishing at the rim, above average passer, excellent free throw shooter, decent running the floor…poor rebounder, limited interior presence on both sides of the floor…hmmm. Again, I’m not saying that he should be a 3 just that his natural basic skills are perimeter based which is exactly why you have such difficulty evaluating him as a player…you lump players into fixed silo’s (stuck in the eighties?) when most players in the NBA today are multi-faceted and multi-positional. You have a very limited view of the NBA today.
* The Bad Boyz championship team started:
Isiah Thomas + Joe Dumars + Dennis Rodman + John Salley + Bill Laimbeer
and brought James Edwards [C] off the bench.
* What I said re: Bargnani had to do with the actual skill set of a #3/SF in the NBA which somebody claimed he has.
* IMO, Dirk and Bargnani are each capable of playing the #4 position for teams that will fail repeatedly to win a NBA championship.
* IMO, Dirk is able to play the #5/C position for a team that is capable of winning a NBA championship, ala Bill Laimbeer [as a starter] or James Edwards/Bob McAdoo [as a key back-up].
IMO, Bargnani has not shown the ability to do this yet.
* Specifically, Bargnani’s actual skill set is not exactly like Laimbeer’s, or Edwards’, or McAdoo’s.
* re: what you’ve observed about Bargnani’s skill set
IMO …
Bargnani is an inconsistent long range shooter
Bargnani is a straight line driver ONLY … with poor lateral agility
Bargnani is a poor finisher at the rim, except in straight line drives
Bargnani is an above average passer
Bargnani is an excellent free throw shooter
Bargnani is poor at running the floor, both ways
Bargnani is a relatively poor rebounder
Bargnani has a limited interior presence on both O & D
* re: at what position I assess Bargnani
Bargnani is a perimeter power-based #5/Center.
I have no difficulty evaluating Bargnani.
* Most players in the NBA today are far from being multi-faceted and multi-positional.
In fact, the view I have of basketball is so non-traditionalist that others frequently cannot see it for what it actually is, i.e. fluid and out-of-the-box-thinking … and, instead, mistake it for being something which it is decidely not, i.e. rigid and limited.
Categorizing players accurately is a fundamental component of understanding how the NBA game actually works, and the fact is not many people are highly skilled at doing it in a Top Notch way.
For example, this is what the Portland Trail Blazers are right now, on their way to achieving outstanding things under the direction of Kevin Pritchard and Nate McMillan:
Greg Oden is an interior power-based #5/C.
Joel Przybilla is a mid-sized, mid-range power-based #5/C.
LaMarcus Aldridge is a terrific finesse #4/PF.
Shavlik Randolph is a below average mid-sized, mid-range #4/PF.
Raef LaFrentz is an average perimeter-based #5/C.
Michael Ruffin is a below average power-based #4/PF.
Channing Frye is an above average finesse #4/PF.
Travis Outlaw is an under-sized perimeter-based #4/PF and a Big #3/SF.
Nicolas Batum is an above average finesse #3/SF.
Martell Webster is an above average finesse #2/OG.
Rudy Fernandez is an above average finesse #3/SF, #2/OG, and #1/PG.
Sergio Rodriguez is an average finesse #1/PG, but a solid back-up.
Jerryd Bayless is an above average finesse #1/PG.
Brandon Roy is a fabulous multi-dimensional, multi-positional player.
Steve Blake is an average workmanlike #1/PG.
The person who put this team together, actually knows what he’s doing as an up-and-coming Top Notch GM, in the NBA.
In contrast with the person who assembled this collection of players … who, IMO, is but an average GM, in the NBA.
Thank you for the response but what do the Portland Trail Blazer have to do with Bargs? It’s completely out of context and NOT fluid at all…this is where many get frustrated with you as you appear to have a rigid agenda centered around legitimizing your PAST musings (slighting BC in this case) very few have interest in and proving your an NBA expert of note when, frankly, you are not (and that’s not a slight against you, just a dose of reality…non of us are truly NBA experts).
…and once again you completely ignore facts when they oppose your opinion. James Edwards was a starter in 89-90 (second of two championships)…he played limited minutes the year of the first championship but he was far more instrumental as a starter in winning the second chip. Why ignore this when it far more significant then his limited minutes the year prior (because it goes against your stated opinion? Again, one of the reasons many get frustrated with you).
“Bargnani is a perimeter power-based #5/Center.” – K….where’s the power in your assessment? I agree with most of your points (as they mirror mine) but Bargs runs the floor quite well for a center and his dribble drive/finishing at the rim improved greatly during the season. Khandor you’re sleeping on this guy and as a Raptor fan I hope you hope that I’m right and you are wrong.
sorry … that 1st sentence should read as:
” … the skill set of a #3/SF … “
THIS KHANDOR DUDE IS AN IDIOT…..lol
Everyone talks about trading Bosh. But what about trading Bargs now for a good SG/SF (Say Caron Butler), and having Marion play the 4 and Bosh the 5? Drafting a big like Monroe/Hill/Thabeet and bringing back Delfino to play SG/SF as well and moving Parker to the bench.
Calderon
Delfino/Parker
Butler
Marion
Bosh
Doubt Bargs could get you Butler but yes, finding out what he can get for Bargs (and Calderone) along with what he can get for Bosh is what BC should do this summer. Compare the potential results of trading any of the core because this team and this core have not made the leap to contender and may never be able to.
That would be a pretty awesome lineup, IMO. Delfino as a solid rebounding/defending, higher usage SG with mediocre efficiency is a nice complement to Calderon’s below average rebounding/defense and highly efficient but low offensive usage. Having a dynamic true all around SF like Butler would give this team some good balance, and would take a lot of pressure off of Bosh.
“This is a big off-season ” – couldn’t agree more. The biggest offseason since the VC – TMac decision… maybe even in Raptors history to date. Regardless of what is or isn’t done (regarding Bosh, marion, Bargs, Parker, the Bench… hell everyone but Calderon – and only because he seems like the only player guaranteed to stay), the impact could be felt for years. The possibilities are mind boggling. All I can say is that I’m glad I’m not BC right now…..
And let me do this before I forget: big up to all the regulars (writers and posters) for making a shitty season slightly less shitty. My compliments in particular to Arsenalist for his game recaps. They have gotten really good. I’d be happy to see them for select playoff games.
What are you guys planning for the playoffs? Time off?
This is a goddamn excellent site.
You have made this season tolerable.
Well done gentlemen.
GIDDYAP
Does anyone take anything positive (if you want Bosh to stay in T.O.) or negative from the comments made to E Smith on the Fan 590 that are linked from RR main page?? I know Smith said not to read too much into it as he can only type so fast, but…..the fact he wants to get better with the talent already on the team, the fact he couldnt pinpoint a weakness on the team due to recent winning streak, the fact he didnt exactly have a glowing review of BC (IMO), the fact he said everyone ELSE has a good relationship with Triano, staying in Toronto “this is where I want to be, this is where I want to play basketball”, etc. Anyone else find it interesting?? to me these are the most positive indications that he wants to stay….not that I am getting giddy or blowing things out of proportion, just intrigued by his comments…could he feel the performance over the past 3+ weeks was a true indication of good team play?
Bosh is done in Toronto, MLSE is already starting to use Andrea in advertissements
Flawless logic
There was a bit of “steak selling and salad serving” this morning during the first part of the locker-room clean-up. However thought I’d share a few nuggets of interest:
-Jose saying he wouldn’t play for the National Team if the Raps asked him not to this summer
-Bosh saying that this year didn’t change his tune about TO, and he won’t demand a trade.
-Parker saying he’d take a smaller role on the team, even at back-up PG
I also found it interesting that Parker, when asked about what the team needed, talked about adding a top-notch swingman. Considering he then went on to say that he’d like to see Marion back, perhaps he’s realizing that he’s better served coming off the bench?
We’ll be talking more about it at the HQ tomorrow but I think the players realize that while the presently constructed version of the team is no salad, it’s a far cry from prime rib as well.
“Brad Miller likes to swing elbows, him and Patrick O’Bryant were going at it and after a dubious O’Bryant foul, Miller responded with the clear-out after the whistle had blown. Somebody needs to knock the f**k out of him, I know it ain’t gonna be Patrick.”
The Bulls will get bullied in Boston, and if KG comes in during this series (and I think it possible that he may not), Brad Miller will get a few elbows thrown his way. I would like to see Brad Miller swing his elbows when KG has his body up under him.
Bosh should pay special attention to how Miller will be throwing a few elbows KG’s way.
If one of Miller’s elbows actually made contact with another player’s chin, the way he swings his elbows in particular, you are looking at a flagrant foul.
KG will not be playing against the Bulls, it seems to be pretty official. Powe will have to have a monster series.
Anthony Parker.
Can we re-sign this guy already to a reasonable contract? He is the classiest guy on our squad, and I never doubt his effort:
RE: What this team could use to take it to the next level:
“… A dominant perimeter player. But how many Dwyane Wade’s or LeBron’s are there out there. But where do you get a player like that?
RE: If he’d come back to T.O. even if he wasn’t going to be a starter:
“For sure. I don’t have an Allen Iverson career; I haven’t been an all star. So it’s a little bit easier to swallow. At some point – if you play long enough – that’s something you have to do. It’d require some re-programming, but it’s something I could quickly adapt to.”
Bringing Parker back fills a necessary roster hole: primary back-up combo guard. It’s a no-brainer (depending on his salary demand – he’s worth $3M/per).
Same with Graham. He fills the back-up SF/PF hole. (Again, dependent on salary demand.) Note: If he’s offered Pietrus-type money ($5M/per), than let him walk. His worth is $3M/per.
I’m right with you (and many others I’m sure). I actually see Parker as the type who would take less money to stay in Toronto (when could we say that?…maybe Calderon did when he reupped but it’s been rare in Raptorland). He’s a class act and with less minutes coming off the bench could produce bigger PER numbers IMO and play tougher consistant D (he could also mentor our draft pick that may end up being the combo guard we’re missing as a starter).
HEAR HEAR Raps Republic!!! Thank you for your fill coverage!!!
Will you guys be going to the draft show in the ACC around June time?
BTW Arse, can you guess what BCo was talking to Larry Tanenbaum about in the seats at the United Center? Hope the many of you guys can take a guess as well.
No one’s biting so I’ll venture…
1. Was he selling Mr. T on how X player(s) from Chicago might look good in a Raps uni in exchange for X player(s)(possibly the “face” of the “franchise”)?
OR
2. Can I please go into luxuryland? Was he telling Mr. T. how amazing Bosh and Marion look out there…and how Bosh needs a max extension asap and that Marion should get $8m per asap.
OR
3. Were they simply discussing floor plans for their mega-sized cottages they will be chilling at in the summer while they catch the last game of a disappointing season and Mr. T displays a small show of public support for BC?
I’m guessing number 3.
Site Moderators; great job with the site and the day-to-day coverage of our favorite underperforming hoops squad. This is the best Raptors site on the interweb; well designed and well written by all contributers, each of whom have their own distinct style and opinions.
I am very interested in seeing the steps that BC takes this summer to add to the team, and will be coming here first for any rumors/breaking news.
Thanks again.
Great analysis as usual arse. Ive followed you from your old website and havn’t missed a post all year. In all those posts i have yet to be unimpressed with your thoughtful insights. Thanks to all the other contributers as well. You have created the destination for raptor fans. It will only get bigger.
What is your plan for summer content?
Thanks man. Summertime should see daily posts of some sort. We’ll try to do podcasts etc too, so content should be pretty streaming.
WOW !!!!! … The Raptors finally jelled and peaked at the same time … in Chicago … go figure …!!!!
To all the RR newbies, here’s a memo you might have missed, to this point.
Newsflash – Arsenalist, Raps Fan, AltRaps & Co. do NOT disappear during the NBA playoffs and the off-season!
Year One’s regular season is now done. Congrats all around!
However, as Avery Johnson mentioned last night during ESPN’s broadcast of the Nuggets/Blazers game … the work begins on the NEXT season RIGHT AWAY for those intent on becoming “the best in the business” [whether that be for the post-season, or the following campaign completely]
Year One’s post-season starts today … right fellas? : )
Devlin’s announcin in the playoffs!
If youre already felling nostalgic about this heckuva season you can listen to him announce some games and enjoy his smooth and entertaining delivery.
http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2009/04/your-round-one-nba-playoffs-announcing.html
I would kill to hear Chuck call a playoff game on ABC. Chuckisms and all.
I can’t stand Devlin. The man bores me to tears and adds nothing. I admit it, I miss Chuck, boisterisms and all.
I’ve actually totally forgotten about Chuck and you are right in saying Devlin adds nothing, but I actually kinda like that – he just calls the plays and that’s it, and is sometimes cheesy and unintentionally funny like when he calls Pops “big daddy.”
Well, Bosh probably will leave in 2010, among other high-classed FA like Wade and Lebron.
Oops, sorry Dwayne and Lebron, for mentioning Bosh’s name alongside you guys. I apologize. He’s obviously a couple of tiers below you guys.
And wow, we won so many games in the last couple of weeks. Great job for ruining a high draft pick.
Just want to say great job to everyone at RR for the amazing coverage of the Toronto Raptors (which you won’t get anywhere else).
Im a big fan of this site. Everyone speaks their mind and you got to respect that, although some thoughts are mean spirited atleast your not being force fed anything like you would listening to Leo, Jack and Devln.
Alright….
Colangelo bringing back Triano and having Ivoroni become the lead asistant and perhaps having Messina as another assistant will be IMO a catastrophic failure. Here’s why…
None of them have any “NBA experience” coaching atleast 1 full season other then being a crumpy assitant who noone listens to anyway. It’s just the way it is. Jay Triano has been a disaster and he has had a fully healthy roster to deal with with only a Calderon injury. He couldn’t work his magic. Ivoroni was a distaer with Memphis and played better after he was let go after what was it 50 games? Messina has not coached a single game in the NBA. To think these 3 will someone how rejuvenate our roster is laughable. Bryan is just positioning Ivaroni to replace Jay once he falls flat on his face.
Washington did the right thing. Flip has been to the conference finals many times and is NBA proven. But MLSE only goes after mediocrity not proven talent. Next season I’m calling it now, will be a disaster.
What’s even more depressing is that Canada’s only basketball team can get no exposure on any of our networks except The Score which many people do not get across Canada. Not only is our ownership deplorable but now our own homegrown networks won’t bother to air the games and would rather air curling and Junior womens hockey.
That will change in the next couple years. Growing up I lived in a urban neighborhood and everybody loves basketball and soccer. With minorites groups growing you might see rise (just slight) popularity in non-winter sports like basketball and soccer. In my hold neighborhood nobody were really big hockey fans, later I became a fan (but still like ball better).
Agreed with one user comment. Your going to give someone 133 million when he has not won a single playoff series in 6 seasons? That money goes towards a proven winner in the “playoffs” against the leagues best.
Not a proven winner playing a “regular season” game against memphis and sacremento posting 40 points and 15 rebounds. Anyone can do that with enough touches and being the focal point on offense.
These types of comments bug me. Do they have merit? In the perfect world Bosh would not be worth the max. But 29 other teams are willing to give that contract to him. Guess what – that dictates his market value. The real question is do we have a better option at this time? I have a feeling the answer is no. So please reserve the comment to a time where viable options are present.
The other factor (and it’s been mentioned before) is that if there was no max salary Kobe, D-wade, Lebron, (insert five tool superstar here) would be making $30 mill a year (they are worth far more than the max). Teams that can land a bonafide superstar have a massive advantage in the NBA with such small rosters (hence the small number of teams winning chips over the past 30 years). I’m still on the fence about Bosh making max (mostly due to defensive defiencies) but take a look at the top NBA salaries this year…half of the players on the list would make you want to toss your cookies if they were on our team.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
Joe – I’m an advocate of putting Triano back as Assistant Coach and looking for an experienced NBA coach (already missed out on Flip).. but to say:
“Jay Triano has been a disaster and he has had a fully healthy roster to deal with with only a Calderon injury”
Is a bit of an overstatement. He had to deal with a poor team mindset, JO adjusting to Toronto, and then Marion adjusting to Toronto. Those two play styles alone make this team much different. Throw in the Calderon injury, although not long term, had an enourmous impact on this team.
I can say unequivocally, what I will miss most after this season, are the RR post games wrap-ups (not that everyone’s was not great, but especially Arsenalist’s). Going to miss roll call as well, and reading everyone’s misinterpretation of AltRaps’ sense of humour.
Good job guys, look forward to more coverage this summer of any signings, and next season.
Reportedly the only coach with big time experience that isn’t already being heavily pursued is Avery Johnson. Could BC and Avery Co-exist? Maybe.
Avery = BC turns the roster over to a demanding coach who will do what he thinks needs to be done to win. If he fails Avery would be the scapegoat and BC would be totally off the hook. (see: Sam Mitchell)
Triano (or any other minimally experienced coach) – puppet coach for BC who can be controlled to some degree. BC is therefore moreso on the hook if the expirament fails.
The evil you know or the evil you dont….
“This was Leo Rautins’ worst season. I can predict what he says 10 seconds before he says it.” – LOL wow, its gotten that bad huh?
“Maybe YOU are not an “NBA expert” but, thankfully, you are also not a very good judge of who else is”
– oh Khandar just when I thought your arrogance knew no bounds. You set the bar a notch higher.
SRB,
So, too, do I happen to believe that it is possible to win playoff games with Bargnani as your starting Center, which is the reason I’ve compared him to Laimbeer in the past, including Il Mago’s mean streak which most other NBA observers have in fact failed to identify accurately, as of yet. The more he plays, however, the more others will eventually be able to see for themselves, 2 or 3 years after-the-fact it was mentioned first by yours truly.
What it requires however is a total commitment to a type of basketball which is very difficult to succeed with in today’s NBA, and which involves not just rebounder/defenders at the wing positions but throughout a team’s lineup, including a special kind of PG … who Jose Calderon is not.
In comparison with the opportunity to build around a solid under-sized multi-dimensional Center, like Chris Bosh, it’s a no-brainer decision for a Top Notch GM in the NBA. Relatively speaking it’s much easier and more practical, and more counter-intuitive, etc., in today’s NBA environment to attempt to build around a Center like Bosh, when Jose Calderon is already in the fold here.
==========================================
My specific reference to James Edwards as a back-up Center in this league applied to only his first 2 years with Detroit, when the Pistons reached the NBA Finals and lost [1987-1988] and then won their first title [1988-1989]. These were the two seasons in which he came off the bench for them, at the #5/C position, in support of Bill Laimbeer, who was THE Center on their team.
IMO, Bargnani does not fit into this category of player. Edwards was an “interior scorer” who came into the game as a replacement for Laimbeer, who was a perimeter jump-shooter that could rebound and defend his position, plus was a world-class thug.
My reference to James Edwards, as a successful back-up Center on the Pistons did not refer to his role on their 1989-1990 title-winning team, nor the subsequent season [when they failed to reach the NBA Finals], as he was the starting Power Forward on that team, who they happened to play in the Low Post on Offense, with Bill Laimbeer still functioning as their starting Center.
IMO, however, Bargnani does not fit into this category of player/starting #4/PF, either.
Bargnani is not an effective Interior Scorer, like James Edwards was, nor is he an effective Rebounder, as a starting Power Forward, for a championship calibre team like the Bad Boyz were 20 years ago … with players like Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars, Thomas and Salley lining up beside him.
re: Portland
Did you say something about my thinking being stuck in a time warp of sorts?
LOL. : )
The Blazers are an example of a contemporary team … with players that some people have a difficult time categorizing accurately. I do not fit into that type of thinking.
If you couldn’t figure that out for yourself … well, that’s a shame.
——————————————-
Maybe YOU are not an “NBA expert” but, thankfully, you are also not a very good judge of who else is.
——————————————-
re: Buddha vs Laimbeer
1989-1990
When you look at this Box Score, what do you see?
Do you see both James Edwards and Bill Laimbeer in the Pistons starting line-up?
If you do, which one do think was playing Center and which one was playing Power Forward?
1988-1989
Now when you look at this Box Score, what do you see?
Do you see Bill Laimbeer in the starting line-up and James Edwards coming off the bench?
1987-1988
When you look at this Box Score, what do you see?
Do you see Bill Laimbeer in the Pistons’ starting line-up and James Edwards coming off the bench?
FACT IS … Bill Laimbeer was the starting Center for each of the 3 years James Edwards was a member of the Pistons, including both of Detroit’s Bad Boyz NBA Championship-winning teams; while James Edwards came off the bench for their losing effort in 1988 and their first title in 1989, and played as their starting Power Forward for their second ring in 1990.
——————————————-
re: assessing Bargnani’s skill set
IN FACT … most of my assessment points DO NOT coincide with yours.
James Edwards replaced Rick Mahorn in the staring line up in 89-90 (he played 70 games as a starter and 72 as a starter the following year) He was a 4/5 (some familiar?…a multi-positional player you box in as a Center only). He started along side Laimbeer and STARTED in the 90’s finals game you just posted and played 34 minutes…again you used him as example of how Bargs should be used off the bench (ridiculous) yet the man STARTED for the majority of his time in Detroit. You are completely delusional Mr. “Facts”.
could care less about the pistons from 20-odd years ago.
re. the blazers…oden over durant? justifiable? miss? huge mistake?
My mistake earlier when I referred to Buddha as only playing 3 years for the Pistons, when in fact he actually played 4.
1987-1988
1988-1989
1989-1990
1990-1991
James Edwards was a Center in the NBA.
During the Pistons’ 3-yr run to the NBA Finals:
1987-1988 … he played as a back-up Center, behind Bill Laimbeer
1988-1989 … he played as a back-up Center, behind Bill Laimbeer
1989-1990 … he started as a Power Foward, beside Bill Laimbeer
During the 1990-1991 season, when the Pistons failed to reach the NBA Finals, James Edwards [PF] again started beside Laimbeer [C].
One of the few problems with the RR is that certain rigid thinking individuals waste considerable time trying to establish the fact that my thinking about something specific doesn’t conform with their perception of the actual facts of a situation when the record shows that it is most frequently the other way around. Then they try to make believe further that the person who they’ve wrongly accused of hijacking that specific thread is in fact the person whose information/opinion is factually correct, in the first place. Then they sometimes play make believe, again, and try to suggest that the person without due credibility in that thread is that same person.
The problem, in this instance, is with YOUR perception that James Edwards was something other than a Center, in the NBA, just because he happend to play his final 2 years in Detroit as a starter beside Bill Laimbeer, who was also a Center.
The fact is, however … when it comes to understanding correctly who those Bad Boyz actually were … Bill Laimbeer was THE Center and nobody else even came close to supplanting him as the focal point in their front-court, while Zeke provided the Leadership in their back-court, as his long-time battery mate.
You [and others] are free to disagree with my opinion, in this regard, if you wish … until your heart’s content, in fact … unfortunately, for you, it won’t make your opinion right in the judgment of those who best understand How The NBA Game Actually Works, i.e. coaches, players, and GMs.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. – Anonymous
PS. When it comes to seeing BOTH the forest and the trees, simultaneously, while accounting for the need for specificity, some people have a hard time with the fact that others might actually know something about the NBA game which they themselves do not. : )
yertu,
Justifiable. : )
I know this is going to be about as useful as banging my head against a wall, but:
1. You said it is difficult to win playoff games with a player like Bargs starting, comparing him to James Edwards who “came off the bench”;
2. James Edwards started on the championship team in 1989/1990 (so your statement referred to above was, as you would put it, WRONG, as Edwards did not come off the bench in 1989/1990);
3. In my opinion (and I know what other people say is an opinion and what you say, as you would put it, is FACT) a more suitable comparison is of Laimbeer to Bargs (which is also not without it’s difficulties, but they are much more similar players than Edwards and Bargs).
Again, saying these things to someone who makes blog posts with titles “Making another correct call, in advance, regarding the Toronto Raptors” without any sense of irony is a waste of time, but call me a masochist…
SRB,
1. If you ask Arsenalist, and/or check the record yourself … what you’ll see is that the first person on this site, and perhaps in the entire blogosphere, to actually make the comparison of Andrea Bargnani to Bill Laimbeer was in fact none other than me.
2. The reason I said it is difficult, rather than impossible, to win the championship with a player like Bargnani, either as a Starter or coming off the bench, is because of what the Bad Boyz were in fact able to accomplish.
What others need to understand, however, is:
A. The specific type of basketball which those grind-it-out, thuggish, defensive-oriented, half-court, set-based Detroit Pistons teams HAD TO PLAY, in order to get the job done with a player like Bill Laimbeer as their Center;
and, that
B. Andrea Bargnani [perimeter shooting power-based] is not a Center of James Edwards’ ilk [power-based interior Turn-arround Jumpshot scorer], nor is he that same type of Power Forward.
Fair enough but I still read this paragraph:
That said … IMO, it is very difficult to win playoff games with this type of player at either the #4/PF or the #5/C spot, unless he is coming off the bench with your 2nd Unit, ala James Edwards [from the Bad Boyz].
as calling Bargs and Edwards “the same type of player” whom it is difficult to win playoff games with unless they are coming off the bench…
I agree that the Pistons played a highly physical brand of defence, but with changes to the way defence is now called, particularly with respect to hard fouls in the lane (previously just two shots, now flagrants) and hand-checking, that style is much more difficult to win with these days. That being said I think it is entirely possible to win playoff games with Bargs as your starting centre (playing a similar role to what Laimbeer did on offence, with the obvious need for more rebounding at the 3 and 4 spots than was required with Laimbeer)
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