Is there anything to be salvaged of this crew?Enough talk about Chris Bosh’s possible exit from Toronto or whether Calderon’s been injured or just crappy. It’s time to look towards the end of the bench and see just exactly what we have there and whether any of it is worth bringing back. The Raptors core consists of Bosh, Bargnani, Calderon and perhaps Marion but after that everything’s a question mark, in this post we’ll look at at 7 Raptors who are barely swimming in the NBA, the question is do we throw them a flotation device or a cinder block.
Kris Humphries: The argument that he needs more playing time so that he can carve his way into the rotation doesn’t hold water, not anymore. We’ve all sang the “play Hump” chant at some point and all he’s done is return is have a good game followed by two bad ones. He’s got some very soft hands and when you combine it with his tendency to play outside his talent level (e.g: taking 15-footers midway through the shot-clock), the bench will come calling regardless of the coach. Sam Mitchell rewarded hustle and you would’ve thought Kris would flourish under him but it wasn’t the case, even Sam couldn’t look past the lapses. The one great part about him is that he’s always ready regardless of how much pine he’s been riding and that makes him good enough to be on the bench of a team that’s trying to find its way. He’s got a reasonable contract: $3.2 million for 2009-10 and a player option at the same number the following year, ssuming he comes back healthy next year there’s no reason not to have him as an extra hand. Bench.
Nana Papa Yaw Dwene “Pops” Mensah-Bonsu: AltRaps thinks he’s a conman and I say there’s only one of those on the team and he’s a southern Californian hippie. It doesn’t take much to figure out that Pops is the hustle big man that we needed to sign in the summer or acquire through the draft (remember Robin Lopez). He’s got an affinity with the boards that I haven’t seen since the Willis/Oakley days, no, I’m not exaggerating. Who was the last Raptor big man that wanted to rebound and tear the rim down? I can’t even remember. For a team that’s been bottom 3 in rebounding all season long, I appreciate the 18.0 PER48 rebounding he brings. To put that in a Raptors perspective, the next guy on that list is Humphries and he’s 5.3 rebounds behind him. Sure, these games don’t mean a damn thing but hustle and rebounding is something that you’re free to evaluate regardless of the standings. Playing time.
Marcus Banks: I had high hopes for him, I even did podcasts with Miami bloggers to make myself feel better but it’s evident that Banks, well, isn’t every good. He can play some defense but so can Roko and he’s younger and cheaper and smarter and plays harder. I was told that Banks could take it to the rim but I’ve only seen him do that twice since he’s been with the team which means he can’t take it to the rim. He’s in his 9th NBA season and if he was going to become a serviceable player it would’ve happened by now. We already have one highly paid termite that’s eating away at our cap and we definitely don’t need another one. Buyout.
Patrick O’Bryant: The Celtics freed up a roster spot and the Kings got paid but I still can’t figure out what the Raptors got in this deal. Oh yeah, the soft feathery outside touch. Nobody knows how much he makes and whether it’s guaranteed or not but one thing is for sure: we don’t need him. Even if Humphries, Bargnani, Pops and Bosh go down I’d still rather Colangelo trade for a big man than give him extended minutes. He’s just not an NBA player and I figure Colangelo knows that, I fully expect him to be released, cut and clobbered. Buyout.
Nathan Jawai: Does anybody care or have the patience to see this guy “blossom”? We sent him to the D-League where he got special treatment (his own room and fresh razors) unlike anyone else and this guy wasn’t close to the best player on the team (his numbers). In fact, he wasn’t very good and did anything but dominate which is exactly what he needed to do to earn the confidence of his GM and the fans. Sticking by Bargnani is one thing but there’s no way I’m living with his mistakes for the next three years. We got a team option of $736,420 for next year, this might be a good opportunity to save some money. Bye bye.
Jake Voskuhl: Call me crazy, call me insane, call me a dumbass and slap my ass silly but I think this guy could pass as a 12th man. Best part about him is that he’s going to come cheap, won’t complain about playing time and try his gosh darn hardest. He’s good for 6 fouls against a big man and could platoon with Humphries as the next edition of the Banger Brothers. Offer him the bare minimum on a non-guaranteed contract and he’ll bite, hey, NBA beats the night shift at Sobeys. By no means am I suggesting he should get an automatic call to training camp, but if we’re tight for cash and need to fill in a roster spot, I’d take him. The fact that I’d pick him over Jawai should tell you just how low I think of the Aussie. Bench.
Joey Graham: Numbers last year: 38 games, 8.7 MPG, 3.6/1.8/0.4, 43% FG. Numbers this year: 69 games, 7.7/3.8/0.6, 49% FG. Nothing spectacular but a marked improvement. He’s been playing a very irregular role in the rotation, sometimes he’s the first guy off the bench, sometimes the fourth. The increased minutes have helped his game but role-definition is still an issue under Triano. He was most effective early in the Triano days when we actually ran plays for him, usually a weak-side flash which got him decent post-position or a baseline screen followed by a quick-hit pass. Don’t underestimate the impact of Calderon’s off year on Joey, he moves without the ball and presents himself far more often than what he’s given credit for. The official backup SF role next year and a place in Triano’s playbook will be good for him and us. Playing time.
Honorable mention:
Quincy Douby: Looks like Tupac.
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195 Raps
Great post. Agree with everything. As for the players we would be keeping (the reasons are obvious why the others would be let go) I think whomever the coach is next year really needs to work on our bench players.
Hump will always be Hump. He doesn’t have the mental game required to improve. For every jumper he takes, he shall be punished by being forced to relinquish the girl he picks up that night, to Roko. Thus, improving Roko’s jumpshot, due to a boost in confidence.
Pops doesn’t need to change a thing. You could say work on his jumper but then he’d just start taking jumpers like the rest of the team. Give him minutes and work on his hands in the paint/use him as the invisible player when they rock the black jerseys…no smiling allowed.
Joey needs some recognition on where he’s improved. His low-post game has become solid. He’s strong, decisive and doesn’t try to do anything out of his element. The coaching staff should recognize that, and give him a few more touches when he has mismatches.
Jake needs to work on his look for next year. He needs another accessory to complement the headband. Knee-highs? Arm sleeve? Maybe some Cherokee Parks-inspired tats. We should definitely keep him, but maybe make him a part of the Dance-Pak…he leads the cheer better than all of those girls combined.
“Pops doesn’t need to change a thing. You could say work on his jumper but then he’d just start taking jumpers like the rest of the team. Give him minutes and work on his hands in the paint/use him as the invisible player when they rock the black jerseys…no smiling allowed.”
I find this very offensive/racist. Shame on you.
LOL
i just agree with him on the no smiling part. i dont want him to be another jamario moon.
What you call racist, I call a distinct advantage Triano has yet to discover. Would it help if we also put Jake in the paint and beamed a spotlight off his pasty complexion every time the other team took a jumper? The invisible man on offence and the blinding headband on D. I see no colour when I look at players…just traits we should be exploiting to win games.
What the fuck are you on about BabyJesus?
He means stop smiling like you’re happy and stop smiling and be mean.
Wait a minute I take it back.
“use him as the invisible player when they rock the black jerseys…no smiling allowed” IS offensive.
Get your head out of your ass, RobertArchibald.
You guys are way too sensitive. The one calling out what he thinks is racist is named Baby fucking Jesus. Give me a break. I think you are all way too obsessed with this stuff due to living in the ethnic capital of Canada. I like him as a basketball player…skin colour does not affect that. I live in Montreal and if someone asked me to “trow me down da stairs my boots” I would laugh and oblige.
And it’s really not that offensive. In a dark room he WOULD be hard to see unless he smiled. I’m glad we have one of the darkest players in the league on our team. It balances out with all the white dudes we have.
“Alpa and I are already wearin’ Earth Mamma’s natural night camo.” – Kirk Lazarus from Tropic Thunder
BigBabyJesus = Old Dirty Bastard, look up and learn your hip hop racist whitey from Montreal, just because you would “throw dem your shoes”, don’t mean shit asshole!
Or boots, what ever the fuck that shit is supposed to mean. The clan is calling son, and not the Wu, The KKK. Racist mother fucker.
Overt racial sensitivity is for in the closet homosexuals. BabyJesus should change his name to Bigfuckingbaby.
I totally vote for Voskuhl coming back in the way you said. He’ll never complain, do anything outside his reach (which is no shooting outside of one feet from the basket), and will scrap, bang opposing players, a little roughness (+ 6 fouls) the Raptors could use.
Voskuhl = new DMart
A comment somewhere else said Pops was a star at Geo Washington U and everybody there is happy about him finally catching on in the NBA and that his nickname is Whale Killer cause that’s what the translation of his name is. And that he likes that nickname. Whale Killer. Someone tell Devlin. Don’t care what he calls him but if he calls him “Big Daddy” one more time, I’m going to shit my pants and send it to him. Remember that whn you hear him say it.
Mensah Bonsu supposedly translates to “Son of Whale Killer”..and stems from the fact that his uncle (or dad? Don’t recall) actually killed a whale.
…with just a bamboo stick and his bare hands.
(And the legend grows).
“Nana Papa Yaw Dwene” = “New Junk Yard Dog” … definitely a ‘keeper’ if only for the devoted rabid tribal honking fans … great fan chemistry … after all, it’s still the ‘sport entertainment industry’ …!!!!
Will you be sending Devlin just the poo or will you be including the soiled panties as a wrapper? If the latter, I recommend using an old pair that you were going to throw out anyway. Also, I’d suggest using a courier (FedEx?) or something because I believe Canada Post has strict regulations about sending feces in the mail.
He’ll get the whole shebang.
Haha. I’m going to remember it.
Agree with everything except I think joey should go unless we get him for close to nothing.
This team needs to change. I can understand keeping the last clown at the end of the bench (I agree about jake) but joey should prolly go unless he’s a 9th man who only plays occasionally.
Same for humph (10th man) and roko (11) and kapono (dead).
Does anyone notice how often all of those guys spend looking for their own shot/turning the ball over? Before I can believe in any of them for minutes, I’d like to see them just try to put themselves in the flow of the game.
Joey is not going to be available for under 3 mill/per. Thats proper money for a 2nd string SF with his talents/inconsistancy.
typo – He WILL be making under 3 mill
Jake over Nate, seriously, I dont care how ad you think jawai is, 6 fouls are 6 fouls, and at least Nate has athleticism and can shoot free throws. Remember, he was only averaging about 25 minutes a game for some reason, he didn’t get off a lot of shots.
If he does get cut, hopefully we can get Patty Mills as the resident Aussie.
Who was averaging 25 minutes per game? Jawaii?
In the D-league, sorry for the confusion
Again, it depend on CB4.
If he stay, I’m happy with Pop and Jake.
Even if I believe that Jake is already gone has we must eat Hump contract.
If CB leave, then it depend on who is coming. If a center like Noah is coming, there is no point having Jake and Pop both around. Better having Rasho.
POB have to go. Hump have to go as well but probably we can’t “sell” Hump because he is not playing right now. The fact that he doesn’t do just what he is supposed to do is the biggest minus he has.
For Joey it depend on Marion as they are a sort of twins, being Marion a better blocker, better defender and Joey being cheaper and younger.
But I don’t see the point to have two of them.
Banks & Kapono will go if CB will go otherwise, we better find a niche for both of them… as their salary together are the value for a good player
“POB have to go. Hump have to go as well but probably we can’t “sell” Hump because he is not playing right now. The fact that he doesn’t do just what he is supposed to do is the biggest minus he has.”
Hump has value in the marketplace as a very young backup big with potential and grit as well as inconsistant. His value would likely be similar or a bit more than Joey Graham’s especially to teams like charlotte etc with no depth at the post spots. At the least we should keep him and trade him for another bench player or a 2nd round pick if him and Pops end up being too redundant.
I’d try to trade Hump for a vet (maybe a pg or wing) for a little locker room/practice influence and keep Jawai instead of Jake. Don’t discount the impact on starters/regulars of guys who practice hard. I’m guessing that Jake proved his worth on the practice court this year.
When it comes to Jawai, even without the heart problem it seems a little early to give up completely on his potential (very big man with soft hands and light feet) given the cost. If Kapono and Banks weren’t on the payroll keeping Jawai would be a no-brainer. Cutting him saves so little.
I ain’t got a clue what the O’Bryant trade was for.
here’s why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kbgAA8uhM
highlight of the year, no question. probably the only enjoyable thing that came out of li’l devil’s mouth.
Kind of hard on the rook. Don’t think it’s fair to pass judgement considering his medical circumstances. Does anyone outside the organization really even know much about what he can or cannot do, or if he’s even in game shape? He looks like Eddy Curry anytime I’ve seen him. I’d say, he’s big and cheap, give him a summer and a training camp.
Douby looks more like one of Tupac’s crackhead “crakalaking” second-cousins.
(His game isn’t as ugly as that picture of him you chose). ;)
Joey Grahams points, rebounds, and assists are down on a per minute basis from last year. I can’t believe you tried to show that he has better stats this year and completely glossed over the fact that he played 8.7 minutes last year compared to 20.1 minutes this year.
I did put his minutes down.
Forget about the numbers for a second and tell me you don’t think Joey’s improved from last year. He’s shown me something this year that I wasn’t expecting and that’s an attacking mentality with an ability to finish. Last year he was basically launching 15 foot one-on-one jumpers whenever he got in the game (usually garbage time) but this year’s he’s playing meaningful possessions and producing, albeit inconsistently.
Let’s top jerking him around and give him a defined role for a change and let’s see how he fairs.
Arse, what type of contract would you offer Joey?
Michael Pietrus money.
2yr + team option at 2.75, 2.75 and 3.5.
6 yrs, $66 mil. any less, and there’s a chance he could walk.
Joey Graham is a dummy….only a chronically mediocre team like the Raptors would entertain anything other than a minimum contract.
I love the Joey apologists. A mediocre or worse player who shows some flashes but continues to make the same mistakes over and over, be it silly offensive fouls, missing easy lay-ups, putting his head down and deciding he is attacking the basket (amongst trees) or losing the man he is defending. The fact Danny Granger was taken right after him along with Nate Robinson, Keliza, David Lee, Gerald Green, Maxiel, Jack and Luthor Head all better players tells you the mistake we made.
Yes once every 3-4 games we see some of his potential and then we see the utterly useless head in skies Joey lost out there. Tell you what give him $2,000,000 max….
for some reason, that’s an awesome collage!!!!!!
pops is our main backup big man. another energy guy off the bench after joey. our 8 man rotation now should be joey, pops and roko.
you should have included CRAPono there. he’s paid big money and years just to shoot 3′s but he is another bust. better get rid of him. he sucks!!!
hump,,, hmmm… pops is doing what hump should be doing. and is a more selfish version of pops. but i like his hustle and he’s got size. i say after he recovers, play him, boost up his stats then trade him.
jake,… the successor to hassan adams as the cheerleader. we should not have traded away rasho. he gets into foul trouble so quick. i say bench him. we could use him for practice and train our bigs like bargs, bosh, pops, nate.
nate… don’t be too hard on the guy. he’s got a heart condition. i have a better suggestion. he does not like the DLEAGUE coz the players are selfish coz they want to be called up. i feel for him. how about letting him play for our summer team, then we send him off to europe so he could develop there? i don’t think the guys there are selfish and mean like the dleaguers. plus we got guys that come from the euroleague, AP, roko, delfino,uhhmm will??? i think he would flourish there then we could call him up if we need him. he’s big and he’s cheap as brasky says. or i wish the aussie team would trade him to us for lauren jackson.
patty bryant… i have no damn clue why did we even get this guy! we already had veteran jake and rookie nate. why did we have to get another young, raw big guy? we have no special asst. coach like kareem or ewing that could turn our young bigs to a yao, dwight, or bynum. buy him out or trade him to the knicks.
marcus banks… buy him out. the guy’s stealing the money from our banks when we watch the raps live, league pass, raptors tv. he has such an expensive and long contract but he does not do anything.
I’m taking a stab in the dark here, but I’d like to see how Banks comes back from surgery. Maybe that toe has been bothering him a little more than we think.
Then again, maybe he’s a bag O garbage…we’ll see
I don’t think buying him out does anything for our cap situation.
Cheers Arse … nicely written.
http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/raptors-republic-buyout-playing-time-bench-7319.html
i say bring back jake, he’s cheap, seems to often be the only guy on the bench (where he belongs) who gives a shit, etc. the only proviso – he’s gotta rock that early 90′s 90210 ‘do. nothing says hardcore like that wavy, blond goodness. plus, they could probably get a nice miami vice thing going with him & nate (crocket & tubbs, redux!!).
wasn’t Po’B obtained in the swill trade? and despite giving the world this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kbgAA8uhM
and despite the fact he (Po’B) doesn’t (&, apparently, cannot) play at this level, the raps, having just sent down nate & with hump on the limp, needed a big man to sit beside jake.
so, who stays, who goes…does it matter? none of the guys above are actual difference-makers, their impact is really only felt in how much they make. i’m too lazy to read up on the cap ramifications for buying someone out, but i’m pretty sure that banks’ salary still counts against the cap unless another team picks him up…so, in the case of banks, since no one’s gonna pick him up, and since he knows he’s done in the NBA, why would he agree to a lower buy-out than he’ll earn by just rotting on the bench. i wouldn’t be surprised if they tim thomas’d him like the bulls did (basically, send him home to avoid being a cancer, but still paying his full salary). odd how he ended up back with the bulls…
Great points on Banks. Every team needs a 3rd point guard (would you rather have Douby or soloman?) their is no benefit in buying him out as he wouldnt agree to a lesser amount anyway – that only happens when a player gets restless or has money to make on a different team/Euroleague etc.
Atleast if we keep him he can act as possible trade filler and PG insurance. He also is athletically gifted and hasnt proven (yet) to be detrimental to team chemistry.
“… so, who stays, who goes…does it matter? none of the guys above are actual difference-makers, their impact is really only felt in how much they make.” – by yertu
Yes, it does matter … a lot.
There are spots for 15 players on a NBA team’s roster, and each one matters a great deal. Every spot throughout a line-up can be the difference between winning and losing, on a night-to-night basis, in this league. e.g. Once the reg. season starts, practice is at a premium and the specific role of each player is magnified considerably. If an individual player isn’t on the roster to help a team succeed for a specific reason then that player is a waste of resources. Assembling a real live NBA team, which is actually capable of finishing in the Top 4 of the EC standings is nothing like playing in a rotisserie league.
thanks. there’s no doubt that every guy on a given roster is important, for one reason or another. since none have proven themselves to actually be capable of contributing in any consistent fashion to the overall fortunes of the team in a positive way, i can’t say i care an overwhelming amount whether some or all are not retained. i care more about who should be brought on board to fill the roles that were so poorly filled this season. in that regard, a ‘player’ like banks, who will be a problem for another year after ’10, is an albatross, because whether he’s cut or not, his salary still impacts their cap, which will impact their mobility on the market.
i just don’t really think any of those above qualify as guys who are going to improve the overall outlook of a team, either by what they contribute on the court, in the locker-room, or on the practice floor. i’m not saying that the decisions made with respect to spots 9-15 on a roster aren’t important in the overall grand scheme of things, because i think they really are….but more as it relates to overall team finances, chemistry, providing good practice competition, and guys who can spell players for a few minutes at a time without fucking up entirely.
sorry, meant to say ‘bought out,’ not ‘cut.’
yertu,
I agree. It’s what happens throughout the roster #1-15 that determines the actual quality of a High End Team in the NBA. If “the mix” isn’t right with this crew, and it isn’t just yet … others will begin to see this more clearly once the Dinos start to lose again in the next few games … then there will be a need to make some changes going forward, in the form of trades, renounced free agents, and new UFA signings.
With all due respect how do high end teams like Boston, Cleveland and LA have so many proven scrubs on them yet still win? Only the players who play help their teams win… the rest are assets or potential future rotation players. You slap another top 10 player on this roster and we’re serious contenders. That statment applies to most any nba team.
Doesn’t Jake comes more expensive than Jawai due to his experience? Why bring back the old guy who is good for only 6 fouls rather than the younger, cheaper, hungrier guy who’s good for 6 fouls? I don’t understand.
As far as O’Bryant goes: We traded a guard who would get no PT for a big man who would get no PT. We have an abundance of crappy guards, and were thin up front with Hump out and Bosh injured (when the trade happened). Why is this hard to comprehend? As far as I know Solomon had a guaranteed contract for next year, so the money is a wash. Even if it isn’t, O’Bryant will count $500K against the cap next year if he’s cut by July 1 (or so). This comes from Doug Smith, who doesn’t post stuff he doesn’t know.
Why buyout Banks? It doesn’t provide any cap relief and now we have to spend on another warm body to store on the bench. I personally don’t give a shit about MLSE’s bottom line, and that is the only justification for cutting him, unless you think he’s somehow killing the team’s chemistry.
We saw what Joey could do when Garbo went down 2 years ago…he was great those last few weeks. Then he sucked last year. The reason his playing time is inconsistent is because his game is inconsistent. Now that Bargnani’s improved Joey is by far the team leader in head-down-plow-through-the-defense charges. The guy’s been in the league for 4 years, I think it’s time we stop cutting him slack and accept him for what he is: an athlete who can’t gauge his own strength and doesn’t grasp the nuances of basketball.
Signing Joey is exactly the kind of move that would be widely panned when it inevitably eats into the cap. “You know what you had with him, and you still paid him $3M a year! We could’ve had ________ with that money!! BC is the worst manager of any business the world has ever seen!!!”
Note that this is directed at nobody in particular.
e.g. Royal Ivey [$0.85 M/yr] was an UFA last summer who was signed by the 76ers/Ed Stefanski. Although Royal Ivey is by no means a terrific player, he is a highly serviceable Back-up PG in the NBA. If Bryan Colangelo had simply signed Royal Ivey instead of Will Solomon … the entire 2008-2009 regular season might have been different, in the light of hamstring injury Jose Calderon sufferred this season. In addition, to Rodney Carney, Royal Ivey was another one of the back-up players who I listed last June as a potential good fit for the Raptors heading into this season.
Until the Raptors properly address each of their 15 roster spots this team is not going to become a serious threat in the post-season.
it’s a good thing the Raps didn’t pick up Royal Ivey. Can you imagine the wordplay that would set up for those comedic geniuses, Leo/Jack and Matt?
Imagine after a dunk:
“That is an Ivey League dunk!”
*shudder*
They’d probably call him “His Highness” or something gay like that.
Solomon and Ivey are equally inept (decent defenders who are below average shooters/finishers with questionable handles and vision for point gaurds, both tweeners). He was not a solution to any of our problems.
Carney again? Is Carney better than Joey, Moon or AP?
Two poor suggestions that go along with Bosh being a 5, Hump starting over Bargs and JO, insisting that Joey and Moon should start, blah, blah, blah.
Astute NBA observers know the value role players like Rodney Carney and Royal Ivey could have played on this year’s version of the Toronto Raptors … especially, as serviceable back-ups to the other functional but largely unspectacular players on the roster, e.g Jose Calderon, Anthony Parker, Jason Kapono, Jamario Moon and Joey Graham. Instead of spending all their energy focused on the “upper end” of the team’s roster, as the spot “where the true impact players” can be found, Raptors fans need to examine more thoroughly how each of the 15 roster spots this team has are being utilised, or not, by the team’s basketball brain-trust, both, short and long term.
Are suggesting that I am not an astute NBA observer?
Two poor suggestions that go along with Bosh being a 5, Hump starting over Bargs and JO, insisting that Joey and Moon should start, blah, blah, blah. – by Raptoronto
If the Raptors basketball brain-trust really was Top Notch, what they would have done with the roster they had assembled at the start of this season is:
* Start Calderon + Moon + Graham + Hump + Bosh
running a set based offensive system
* Then brought Parker & Kapono off the bench in 5 player back-court rotation, splitting PT at the PG spot between Calderon & Parker, exclusively, in the form of 70:30
* Then brought Bargnani off bench in a 3 player front-court rotation, splitting PT at the C spot between Bosh & Bargnani, exclusively, in the form of 70:30; and, splitting PT at the PF spot between Hump & Bargnani, exclusively, in the form of 30:70
* Then used Jermaine O’Neal as a situational substitute, when and where he was needed, in isolation, for his Low Post Scoring ability [which is in a state of marked decline]
in a tight 9-man rotation … giving zero [0] PT to the likes of Will Solomon, Roko Ukic, Hassan Adams and Nathan Jawai.
If the Raptors would have started this season following that specific plan they would not be sitting where they are today, as the 14th place team in the Eastern Conference [28-45/.384].
Jermaine the Drain would never accept a bench role. Especially as a “situational substitute”. He did it for a while on the Raps because he knew he was on his way out.
You have a tendency to ignore reality. These people are human beings, not stat-machines.
Wait, let me rebutt for you:
“But if Colangelo did not make the mistake of trading for Jermaine in the first place he would not have had to make that decision”
Break out the reverse crystal ball.
Part of the actual skill set which a Top Notch GM brings to the table is the ability to convince each of the players on his roster to accept his role, as outlined by the coach, in the best interests of the team. If a GM does not have this specific skill then he is not a Top Notch practicioner in this league.
Good-to-great players accept their roles, as defined by the head coach, in part, because of how the GM is actually perceived by the players on that team.
Some players will never accept a role other than the one they are used to. Jermaine strikes me as one of those players. I would be extremely surprised if he will ever be content in a “situational substitute” role.
re: the “reverse” crystal ball
Those who choose not to read what I’ve written on different sites might easily have this perception. Unfortunately, it doesn’t conform with reality. The prescriptions which I develop are delivered in advance. : )
Those who doubt this should simply ask individuals like Arsenalist, Raps Fan, AltRaps, Flux, Dave, phdsteve, Scott G., etc.
Thanks for using threaded comments Khandor – it makes the conversations/debates easier to follow. I mean that sincerely.
You can thank Arsenalist for that. Arsenalist did a great job solving the specific problem which was at the root of the issue. Unlike others with closed minds, Arsenalist has shown repeatedly that he does not fit into that category. I respect him a great deal for that.
You’re right the Raptors would not be sitting where they are today with that line-up/rotation they would be a lock for most lottery balls in the draft.
1. Worst starting line up in the league. Moon and Graham starting together with Hump would be a disaster…ball movement would be none existent, zero interior presence, Bosh would be triple teamed constantly with the lack of outside shooters and slashers to draw defenders away and our defence would be far worse (which says allot). Terrible idea.
2. Jermaine, even in decline, is superior to Hump. Jermaine would fake a knee injury before agreeing to sitting behind Hump.
3. Bosh IS NOT A CENTER and never will be. He wouldn’t be able to defend 90% of the centers in the league in the low post, if any. Very few teams would assign their center to cover Bosh on D. CB’s offence game is best when he received the ball 10 ft plus from the basket…Bosh is a PF that plays more like a wingman. This is the worst of your suggestions and completely exposes your own lack of acumen in basketball.
4. Parker as a full-time back up PG would get exposed on the nightly basis. Once teams scout his tendencies as a PG he will be pressed constantly as he has a weak left hand and tends to put his head down when pressured. He can fill in in a pinch but not over the long haul.
5. Roko – zero minutes. Great for the development of our future/current back up.
6. Hump starting in front of Bargs. Do I even need to say anything about that?
You need to stop telling others that “astute NBA observe would understand”. First, you have no idea what level of understanding or experience anyone has in basketball on this blog or elsewhere. We ALL know your a dedicated basketball observer, Khandor, but your analysis of the game, and particularly when it comes to personnel, is weak and lacks credibility based on your history. Insisting you are an expert and most NBA exec’s lack acumen is also delusional. Now I will stop responding to your comments with the exception being when someone (other than Flux, your alter-ego) agrees with something you state that is way off the mark…you clog up this comment section enough as it is.
Jermaine would cause a knee injury to Hump before he sat behind him. Tonya Harding style.
Your dead on about all of those points. Moon, Graham and Hump in the starting line up? When we have Bargs, O’Neal, and Parker on the bench? Pure insanity.
Who stays .. who goes … that’s the big question?!
It will all hinge on what happens with Bosh.
If BC trades Bosh, he will want a big trade package.
Bosh plus others will be traded for several good pieces.
Raptors desperately need ‘athletic’ players (a la Smitch).
e.g. just look at Diaw & Bell on the Bobcats !!!
Plain & Simple ….
What’s plain and simple is that neither Raja Bell nor Boris Diaw is particularly “athletic” by NBA standards.
FYI … re: What the Bobcats have done this season
All you did was point out pretty much every move they’ve recently made. The transactions you painstakingly researched and listed mean next to nothing because there’s little in the way of analysis or critical thought to accompany them. You might as well have wrote a single sentence stating, ‘In order to try and improve their team, the Bobcats made a bunch of moves, and since then they improved’. Bingo! 95% of your time saved to go towards writing another useless blog entry.
Stop doing that. It just leads to more stuff I have to scroll through. And I’m pretty sure I’m not alone.
Brasky,
Astute NBA observers can tell from what I wrote in that specific blog entry [given the way it's written] that what’s most important in understanding the meaning of that particular list is: [A] the order of operations which the Bobcats followed this season, given their roster from last season and their former head coach; and, [B] the short-form details contained within the different parentheses displayed there.
Analyses and critical thought?
LOL, : )
He could also get a straight up trade for Pau Gasol…..
I love Gasol. Another idea I was toying with the idea also of trading Bosh for some wing players and picking up Boozer in this offseason, because he was saying he was thinking of leaving Utah and hitting FA. That was before the market collapse though.
I still like Bosh, and I like what he has done for the Raps. But, if he wanted to leave though, this would be a good route that I can see.
Dude…people scolded me for suggesting that.
Suggesting the Boozer thing? Or that you like Pau Gasol?
I think Bosh is better than Pau for a number of reasons, but I like how Pau never backs down on a matchup with bigger men. Offensively, also I think his season is a largely a result of Kobe and the triangle. But he is still a fantastic player.
I wouldn’t trust Boozer. He’s injury prone and has some loyalty issues. Bosh is still way better in my book. They play basically the same game but Boozer is a bit tougher and Bosh is quicker with better range.
I agree. This is premised on Bosh wanting to leave. Two things I would look forward to are Boozer’s rebounds, and playing alongside Bargnani a la Okur, only more versatile.
I am not convinced that Bosh and Bargnani’s defence cannot improve together. I think a lot of issues are through dribble penetration and rotations – in other words team defensive issues, not individual ones. I HOPE these can be fixed, as I like both Bosh and Bargnani.
We’ll see what happens.
He is a much better rebounder than Bosh, which would make up for Barg’s rebounding issues.
I agree that B&B’s defence can improve. Give them some time to figure each other out. People forget that Barg has been a bench player for a significant portion of his career thus far. Those boys need them some good ole fashioned coaching.
Boozer is not a much better rebounder than Bosh. What Boozer is … is a much better rebounder than Bargnani.
Boozer and Bosh together? You actually think that would be a good idea? It’s the same thing as Jermaine and Bosh. It did not work.
… and, just in case you didn’t get the memo which was distributed in these parts last June, the person here who first said that Jermaine O’Neal would not solve the Raptors problems was yours truly. : )
but he certainly would have been more helpful if BC had gotten him some guys to play the wings and a back up pg.
JO played well here and made a nice contribution when he played.
sorry- this was supposed to be a response to Khandors prediction of JO not working out.
fyi- he did argue this (at great length) with me all summer long.
phd,
You did a good job of keeping your composure through that discussion … for the most part, as I recall : ) … and then an even better job of keeping an open mind to what I said, in that regard, as this debacle of a season began to develop and the negative [-] Rebounding Differential refused to go away, and the losses piled up in every way imaginable.
phd,
As I recall, Dave [in particular] and I both agreed with you, at the time, that the major problems with the Raptors’ thinking in making the JO trade option which they chose were based on the fact that:
* It cost Nesterovic, Ford + the 2008 No. 17 [overall] Draft Pick [with Baston as a throw-in] … my focus, at the time
* It was being done in isolation, with no supporting moves in-waiting … Dave’s focus, at the time.
Boozer would not come to Toronto and even if he did he would be a terrible fit for a team that would try to play fastbreak ball. We should get a solid guard in exchange for Bosh, we already got Bargnani at the C and to complement him we need a banger type player, not a legit scorer. The scoring for this team should come from the wing position, not PF. If we want to play a running style that is.
I think that if we got Boozer, we would have to abandon running and gunning. However, we could still get fastbreak points – Utah’s offence is as entertaining, in my mind, as any other style in the NBA.
Yeah, but their fastbreak offense is generated by their defense which won’t be the case for us. I dig Utah too but I dig them more because of Jerry Sloan than their actual personnel. If we made a 12 for 12 trade with Utah and had Triano as the coach, you think we’d get close to the same results as the Jazz?
Boozer, good in Utah with Okur under Sloan. Bad in Toronto with Bargnani under Triano. Obviously this is all hypothetical but I see him becoming another Bosh in Toronto (black hole).
i think, at least based on all the rhetoric, that this is what Triano wants out of his team. I don’t think he is a run and gun coach, but like to get out running when the defence gets the stops. Is Triano as good at implementing this system as Sloan? No. Not yet anyway,
Jerry Sloan is one of the greatest “system” coaches of all time. So, don’t bank on Triano replicating his success any time soon. Maybe after two decades as the coach of the same team.
well, gasol is a great player, but we don’t need another thin, big guy. he is only an improved bosh. and i don’t think he would like to come here, since he is in a championship contending team and plays with a hall of fame coach and one of the best players in the league. even if it means playing with fellow spaniard jose.
i don’t like boozer. he is the type of guy that we need, a tough, inside scorer who rebounds. but he is too injury prone, he is expensive, and he ditches teams. he disrespected the cavs, then might probably even leave utah where he is having a good career and a perennial playoff contender. another JO if we get him.
Except JO, even broken down JO, is a better defender.
that’s true. it’s just unfortunate that we are really thin in our wing men, the JO trade was not an instant solution, and JO was our number 1 moveable piece.
i would prefer young, cheaper guys like paul millsap, david lee.
A straight up trade for Gasol makes sense for a few reasons: they can contribute similar things…both are soft , finesse big men, but Gasol is taller and longer… and would be playing with Calderon..which would be great for both of them.
Bosh would probably welcome a trade to the Lakers, unlike most other teams, where he would be a rent-a player for one year….so both teams would get what they want….
Boozer is not going to come to Toronto…he’s leaving Utah to get to a big American market…
Bargnani and Gasol together could be very interesting…..but it would still require a huge upgrade from AP at the 2 and at least someone of Marion’s status, if not Marion himself….
Bargnani & Gasol is a poor Big Man pairing in a way that both:
1. Boozer & Bosh; and,
2. Bargnani & Boozer;
are not.
Pau Gasol’s rebound numbers are the same as Bosh’s, you stupid cunt…you have absolutely NO idea how Bargnani and Gasol wold pair up…like you have no idea about anything else….
If you can … Please point out where YOU think I said that Gasol’s and Bosh’s rebound numbers are not similar?
When you find that, let me know, and I will then apologise for saying something which is not accurate in the first place.
Til then, I suggest you assume that what I wrote was actually something different than that. : )
Boozer is not going to choose to come to Toronto, and even if he did, he can’t stay healthy for more than a month….you stupid cunt….
1. I agree. It’s unlikely that Boozer would be willing to come to Toronto … to work for Bryan Colangelo.
2. Whether YOU are stupid, or not, is of little concern to me. Neither is what specific anatomical part you obsess over. : )
1. A tandem of Boozer [PF] & Bosh [C] could work as an effective Big Man pairing in a way that Bosh [PF] & O’Neal [C] together could not.
2. An astute NBA observer would not need to have this explained further.
Boozer’s individual game is nothing like O’Neal’s.
I am curious what your reasons for thinking this are, however.
Even astute NBA observers (not myself, I may add) might be mystified as why any observed differences are significant in a way that is favourable to a Bosh and Boozer combination as opposed to Jermaine/Bosh?
The biggest difference I can see is that you believe Boozer capable of guarding opposing teams PF (hence the [PF] next to Boozer’s name above. I am not so sure though. In Utah, Boozer guards opposing Centres as often as not (I think, though am not sure), because Okur does not have the size to.
Carlos Boozer is a true power-based player. At his height [6-8/9] and weight [266] he is both shorter and stronger than Chris Bosh, with an individual skill set that includes the ability to: [i] defend [A] PF’s, [B] players who are “bigger” than himself, and [C] smaller Guard/Forwards in defensive switch situations [e.g. 6-3 to 6-7], [ii] hit a mid-range jumpshot, [iii] drop-step and finish with either hand, on either side of the lane, and [iv] offensive rebound with NBA-level athleticism, etc. … he is not like Jermaine O’Neal, who was at his very best during his younger days with the Pacers when his own individual game was based primarily on mid-range quickness, as an under-sized Big, himself. Carlos Boozer is the prototypical “bull-in-a-china-shop”; while Jermaine O’Neal is the prototypical “finesse-power-forward-who-has-bulked-up-with-age” and unfortunately lost a good part of his game in the process, as well as through repeated injuries. Although he has also experienced his own share of injuries, Mr. Boozer can still jump repeatedly for rebounds and sprint up and down the court without getting winded severely and or injured.
thank-you for that very lucid explanation.
I think if the Raps pick up a good coach, then Bosh and Boozer could be quite potent. As it stands, with Triano, if they were both on the same team, Bosh would be the PF, and Boozer the C.
It is all speculation tough, because Boozer is too expensive to keep alongside Bosh, and pick up some decent wingmen.
verbatim,
IMO, one of the real beauties of a pairing like this [i.e. Boozer & Bosh] is, in fact, the flexibility it would give that team’s head coach, as both of these two players are capable of doing the work [i.e. offensively, defensively, and rebounding] which a legit Center needs to be able to do in the NBA, on a nightly basis, while Boozer is particularly well-suited to excel at the Power Forward position for a High End Team and Bosh is particularly well-suited for the Center position … especially from a Leadership perspective. In effect, Bosh would be The ["erudite, philosopher king"] Sheriff, and Boozer would be His Deputy [the Enforcer]. : )
The only difference between O’Neal and Boozer is that Boozer’s body hasn’t completely broken down on him yet.
bosh is not a center!!!! he can’t guard the likes of dwight howard, bynum, shaq… he just got bulldozed by dwight in last season’s playoffs. and recently was given a hard time by shaq who scored 45 points, and he complained that shaq was camping in the paint, which resulted to him being called the RUPAUL of big men by the future hall of famer.
A Center’s ability to guard Shaq or Yao or Howard is not the only criteria which needs to be met in order for that player to qualify as a legit Center in the NBA.
having a center that can guard elite centers is pretty much required to win anything of worth.
Not the only criteria, no, but it’s a pretty damn important one. What do you do when Shaq/Yao/Howard are on the floor then? Bench Bosh and put in a bigger guy who can handle them? What if Howard plays 40 minutes?
I brought this point up to you on your blog and you didn’t address it. So what do we do oh-almighty-khan?
If he is supposed to be guarding these guys, and he can’t (which we all know he can’t), how is Chris Bosh supposed to play centre? Bargnani has the size and will eventually have the strength to defend these guys. That is why he is our C and Chris Bosh is our PF.
There’s a difference between:
i. You didn’t like or agree with the answer you were given.
and,
ii. You weren’t given an answer.
————————————————————————
Have you ever done any research into how many actual points Wilt Chamberlain scored individually in the games he played against Bill Russell’s dynastic Celtics teams?
Sometimes … the single best way to deal effectively with a dominant back-to-basket low-post player like Dwight Howard [who's a terror on the glass but just a mediocre scorer] is to play him straight-up with solo coverage, by an under-sized Center, that can out-quick D12 on the offensive end of the floor [and in transition], hold his own on the boards, and play behind him on defense … while allowing Dwight to pile up points, as the rest of his teammates stand around the perimeter and watch.
If a team with Chris Bosh does this to Orlando, Dwight Howard might well go for 50 points, himself, but the chances of the Magic winning that game are dramatically reduced, in comparison with trying to hold Dwight down in total points while allowing his teammates to fill-up the scoreboard [e.g. Turk, Lewis, Evans, Bogans, Dooling & Nelson].
The fact is … Dwight Howard is not Kobe Bryant. D12 is not going to put 81 on your team, fueling a victory for the Magic himself. It doesn’t matter how many individual points a Center like Dwight Howard gets vs Chris Bosh; it matters how many points the Magic score against the Raptors when Howard and Bosh are each used at the Center position for their respective teams.
One of the crucial mistakes Sam Mitchell made in that playoff series last season was the number of minutes he gave to other Raptors players at the Center position instead of using Chris Bosh vs Dwight Howard [i.e. offensively, defensively and rebounding-wise].
“… and, just in case you didn’t get the memo which was distributed in these parts last June, the person here who first said that Jermaine O’Neal would not solve the Raptors problems was yours truly. : )”
Treat yourself to a cookie, Khandor
And, Pops, for life.
————————————–
“… and, just in case you didn’t get the memo which was distributed in these parts last June, the person here who first said that Jermaine O’Neal would not solve the Raptors problems was yours truly. : )”
Treat yourself to a cookie, Khandor
And, Pops, for life. – by eyebleaf
————————————–
In my book, it’s not something worth mentioning … except when certain individuals try to claim the opposite as fact. : )
FACT is that when the JO trade went down half the NBA experts and media felt JO would not solve the Raptors issues.
It’s a good thing I was in the other half.
Please excuse the typo …
It’s a good thing was not in the other half.
[never took typing/keyboarding in school : ) ]
HALF? That is a complete and utter lie, amongst the many you have been spreading around here!
Provide links that support this claim.
It was all contender and EOY talk from every media outlet known to man kind when that trade when down.
read the espn season preview.
so that’s half?
What preview are you talking about, Sorael? This?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-TorontoPreview0809
This hardly dismisses the trade in any way shape or form, by any of these “experts”
What lies have I told Khan Jr?
Losing track, Iago?
That’s what I thought.
Still no links, eh? Yeah, that what’s I thought, Iago.
Khandor why do believe Bosh should be a 5?? They guy could not guard most premier centres (like Howard or Yao) to me Bosh is a much better weakside defender (with his length and good athleticism).
Don’t bother. It’s like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a brick wall.
Babyface,
The number of advantageous mis-matches which are created and disadvantages minimized for the Raptors [i.e. Offensively, Defensively and Rebounding-wise] when Bosh plays Center exceed those which exist when Bosh plays Power Forward. This is something which an elite level coach and/or GM can see when he looks at Chris Bosh’s individual game and others simply can not see.
IMO, if you sent an email to an elite level NBA coach and asked his opinion on the matter he would tell you that the combination of:
Kris Humphries [6-9, 255, PF with a specific skill set] + Chris Bosh [6-10, 230, C with a specific skill set] + Jose Calderon [6-3, 210, PG with a specific skill set]
might well be superior to
Chris Bosh [6-10, 230, PF with a specific skill set] + Andrea Bargnani [7-0, 260, C with a specific skill set] + Jose Calderon [6-3, 210, PG with a specific skill set]
when you consider Offense, Defense and Rebounding.
Here’s an email address you can use to contact George Irvine, a former NBA head coach, whose web site is for basketball coaches and enthusiasts:
Email: contact@neptuneventure.com
Web site: Basketball.org
Try asking George’s opinion and see what he says, then come back here and publish his reply. If nothing else, it should at least make for some interesting reading on RR. : )
If George disagrees with my perception, I won’t mind at all.
Why can’t you answer my question on CB4 facing a player like howard or bynum in the post. Last years magic seris showed us that Chris can’t guard centres.
Babyface,
What about last year’s series with Orlando would lead you to believe that Chris Bosh cannot defend adequately against Dwight Howard in the Low Post?
e.g. IMO, the Raptors did not lose that series vs Orlando because D12 out-played CB4.
Once you explain the rationale behind your specific perspective on Chris Bosh’s defense vs D12 then perhaps I can explain why it is that I might disagree with that viewpoint.
I did not say they lost series because of chris post d on Howard but because of many different factors. Still I think Bosh could your criteria for a under-sized centre but that is defence on bigger and stronger players is suspect.
*Still I think that Bosh could go under your criteria for a under-sized centre but his is defence on bigger and stronger players is suspect.
Babyface,
I agree that Chris Bosh’s individual defense on opponent bigs like Shaq and Yao and D12 is in fact one of the “relative” weak areas of CB4′s overall game … which was also the case with the Great Bill Russell.
It wasn’t Russell’s individual D on Wilt [for example] that was responsible for all those banners in Beantown, it was his first-class Leadership, and the tremendous Team Defense he played versus the other 4 opponents on the floor, and his dominating ability to rebound the basketball, that keyed the Celtics Dynasty. Individual Defense at the Center position, in the Low Post, is one of the most over-rated aspects to championship success in basketball … which is not to say that it is not important at all, only that it isn’t quite as important as other more important areas of the game [e.g. like Team Rebounding Differential]. : )
Comparing Bill Russell’s defence with CB4′s is crossing the line into insanity, WOW.
… not when what you’re talking about is that aspect of those tow players’ individual games being amongst their weakest areas overall, rather than one of their strengths.
[I do realize that it's difficult for certain participants here to follow that type of logic. i.e. that it actuallly makes a difference whether you're comparing a player's strengths vs his weaknesses : ) ]
But Russel only had to face one 7 footer during that whole decade and he was far more superior interior defender than Bosh.
What’s relevant is not HOW MANY footers Mr. Russell had to face, or not.
What’s highly relevant, however, is the number of W’s Mr. Russell’s teams put up against the footers they actually had to face, relative to the number of L’s. : )
As an under-sized Center, with a specific skill set, Mr. Russell’s teams dominated Mr. Chamberlain’s teams … whether Wilt won the individual numbers game, or not, is largely irrelevant, in comparison with the achievements of those Celtics teams.
Bosh is not even close defensively to Russel and plus players today are bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Russel.
*than players during Russel’s times
This isn’t really about Russell vs. Bosh. It’s about whether or not Bosh should/can be a Centre in today’s NBA game.
I believe he can’t, because he is way too slight to guard the big powerhouse centres in the NBA. He would get pushed around underneath the basket and would not be able to fight these guys for rebounds. Scoring aside (because Bosh could score on them, a lot) he would be at a distinct disadvantage because he does not have the strength to box out the Shaq’s of the world.
I’ll leave the rebuttal up to you this time. Try to make it concise and illuminating for once.
6-10 was not considered undersized in the 50′s and 60′s….and Bill Russell’s indivdual defence on opponent bigs was not a “weak area of his game” as you stated. Better check with your sources before venturing out on your own.
Those who think that THAT is what I said … might need to improve their reading comprehension skills. : )
I never said russel was undersized or a weak post defender. When khandor compared Bosh to Russel I said the players during Russel times were not as big, strong, and fast as todays players. Thats no slight on Russel the guy is a top 5 centre of all time.
Babyface Killah – that was my response to Khandor who stated both those things. I agree with you 100%.
Babyface,
If I’m not mistaken, I said that individual low post defense was an area of “relative” weakness within Bill Russell’s game … which means in comparison with the other areas of his own skill set. This is also what I said is an attribute of Chris Bosh’s individual game.
I did not compare the quality of Bill Russell’s individual defense in the low-post to that of other Centers in the NBA during that era.
What I said is not the same thing as saying, “Russell was a weak low post defender.”
Hopefully you can see the difference there.
Secondly, I did say that that Bill Russell, at 6-9, 220 was an under-sized Center … specifically, in comparison with Wilt Chamberlain [7-1, 275], who was the other dominant force at that position during Bill’s reign in the 1950-60′s. Hopefully you can see how Wilt was in fact of a similar size to the physically dominant Centers in the game today. If Russell was indideed under-sized in comparison with Chamberlain and Chamberlain was of a similar size to the physically dominant Centers of today then it follows logically that Russell should be considered as an under-sized Center in comparison with the physically dominant Centers of today. Hopefully that makes sense to you.
What I said was not the same thing saying, “Russell was an under-sized Center in comparison with the other Centers [plural] who played during his era in the NBA.”
: )
Raptoronto is the one who called out your assessment on Russel’s game not me. I just said that Bosh and Russel comparsion is a was because most centre outside of Wilt were 6’6 white guys not the centres today.
*is a wash
Wilt was like nothing else the league had ever seen, and would not see again until 30 years later when everyone else caught up. 55 rebounds in a game? 22-25-21? Come on. Obviously he was a special case. No one will ever get 55 rebounds in a game again. That speaks less to Wilt’s individual ability than to the competition he was up against. Put Shaq in a time machine and he’ll get a double-triple-double as well.
Interesting how Bill shrunk an inch to help your argument, 6-9, really? I know you know better.
“What’s highly relevant, however, is the number of W’s Mr. Russell’s teams put up against the footers they actually had to face, relative to the number of L’s. : )” – Khandor
…(“footers” being PLURAL, no?)
So Russell is “under-sized” compared to TODAYS Centers…that was not in your original argument at all. Classic Khandor circle argument. You were comparing the merits of Bosh’s defence by drawing parallels to BILL RUSSELL’s defence in his time (one of the greatest defenders of his time)…again, do you realize how far-fetched that is and why it deserves criticism?
…and nice job hiding your response to Marc in your blog. All the points you made that Marc and I disproved were suddenly “irrelevant”…nicely done.
Khandor you can continue to believe that only those that agree with your point of view are the ONLY ones who have any basketball acumen but continuing to insult anyone who opposes your POV will continue to bring the hail of negative attention you receive (especially when you present inaccurate info so frequently). How you don’t see this is beyond me. No need to respond…this thread is dead.
Who thinks Triano should be brought back as Coach and if yes why do u think so
Raptoronto,
——————————————-
You’re right the Raptors would not be sitting where they are today with that line-up/rotation they would be a lock for most lottery balls in the draft.
——————————————-
You are entitled to your opinion. I will not correct you because you are someone who doesn’t like being corrected.
——————————————-
1. Worst starting line up in the league. Moon and Graham starting together with Hump would be a disaster…ball movement would be none existent, zero interior presence, Bosh would be triple teamed constantly with the lack of outside shooters and slashers to draw defenders away and our defence would be far worse (which says allot). Terrible idea.
——————————————-
If you’re suggesting that the number of W’s a team earns is determined purely/primarily on the basis of the quality of its “starting line-up” … then, you are entitled to assert that. I will not correct you because you are someone who doesn’t like being corrected.
——————————————-
2. Jermaine, even in decline, is superior to Hump. Jermaine would fake a knee injury before agreeing to sitting behind Hump.
——————————————-
Where exactly do YOU think I said that Jermaine O’Neal would readily agree to sit behind a player like Hump? If you can … please feel free to point that out. If you’ve read carefully in this thread, as well as others on this site, what I’ve said is that good-to-great players are willing to accept the roles outline for them by their head coach, in part, when their organization is being led by a Top Notch GM. What you’ve written here has given me no cause to re-think that viewpoint.
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3. Bosh IS NOT A CENTER and never will be. He wouldn’t be able to defend 90% of the centers in the league in the low post, if any. Very few teams would assign their center to cover Bosh on D. CB’s offence game is best when he received the ball 10 ft plus from the basket…Bosh is a PF that plays more like a wingman. This is the worst of your suggestions and completely exposes your own lack of acumen in basketball.
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If you’re trying to suggest that a Center in the NBA cannot function at a high level if/when he receives the ball primarily 10 ft plus from the basket … then, I will not take the time to correct. The fact is … you are some one who does not wish to be corrected.
Just because YOU happen not to see how Chris Bosh can be best utilized while playing the Center position … according to the productivity level at which his team performs when he plays that spot, in terms of wins and losses … does not mean that it is incorrect to assert that coaches like Mike Krzyzewski, Mike D’Antoni, Nate McMillan and even Sam Mitchell were wrong to use Chris Bosh at that position for the teams they’ve coached with him.
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4. Parker as a full-time back up PG would get exposed on the nightly basis. Once teams scout his tendencies as a PG he will be pressed constantly as he has a weak left hand and tends to put his head down when pressured. He can fill in in a pinch but not over the long haul.
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This is a misperception which is frequently held by those who make the mistake of thinking that playing Point Guard effectively, in the NBA, is just like playing PG effectively at other lower levels of basketball.
The skill set required to play this position effectively in the NBA is not the same as it is at lower levels. e.g. Russell Westbrook is not a PG in the NCAA but Russell Westbrook is, in fact, quite capable of playing major minutes at the PG spot, in the NBA.
If you think that Anthony Parker cannot function at the PG spot … I will not correct … because you are someone who does not like to be corrected.
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5. Roko – zero minutes. Great for the development of our future/current back up.
——————————————-
Given where his skill level was at when the Raptors broke camp in October the best place for a player like Roko Ukic to develop this season was in daily practice sessions with the Raptors, going against a PG like Royal Ivey, or in the D-League … where his inconsistent play would not have cost the Raptors any W’s this season, although you are entitled to hold a different opinion if you wish.
——————————————-
6. Hump starting in front of Bargs. Do I even need to say anything about that?
——————————————-
No, you don’t need to say anything at all about such a move … which would only be tried by an elite level coach who can see with accuracy what a player like K-Humphries brings to the table in the NBA, both, good and bad. Moves of that nature are best left to the Gregg Popovich’s, Pat Riley’s, Phil Jackson’s, Jeff Van Gundy’s, Lenny Wilkens’, Larry Costello, Hubie Brown’s, etc., of the world, not to someone like you. : )
——————————————-
You need to stop telling others that “astute NBA observe would understand”. First, you have no idea what level of understanding or experience anyone has in basketball on this blog or elsewhere. We ALL know your a dedicated basketball observer, Khandor, but your analysis of the game, and particularly when it comes to personnel, is weak and lacks credibility based on your history. Insisting you are an expert and most NBA exec’s lack acumen is also delusional. Now I will stop responding to your comments with the exception being when someone (other than Flux, your alter-ego) agrees with something you state that is way off the mark…you clog up this comment section enough as it is.
——————————————-
You are free to hold your own opinions about the game and what I think about it. : )
Me thinks you are the one who doesn’t like to be corrected…hence the post above.
You’re entitled to hold that opinion. I will not correct you, as you are someone who does not wish to be corrected.
To your 2nd point:
Uhm.. okay.. correct me if I’m wrong, but if Hump was starting, and Jermaine O’Neal was coming off the bench for situational substitutions, how is JO not sitting behind Humphries? It really seems like you didn’t even address that point. Instead you just wrote down a bunch of words arranged into sentances that have nothing to do with the fact that Jermaine O’Neal would NEVER come off the bench behind Chris m’f'n Humphries.
Marc,
Re-read what I wrote more carefully.
You really should be able to see that the point which I made in that comment “centered” around the lack of sway which Bryan Colangelo has in terms of influencing which players actually “accept” their roles while playing for the Toronto Raptors.
[Here's the exact quote for you, with the two key parts bolded]:
Where exactly do YOU think I said that Jermaine O’Neal would readily agree to sit behind a player like Hump? If you can … please feel free to point that out. If you’ve read carefully in this thread, as well as others on this site, what I’ve said is that good-to-great players are willing to accept the roles outline for them by their head coach, in part, when their organization is being led by a Top Notch GM. What you’ve written here has given me no cause to re-think that viewpoint.]
Hopefully, this is now easier for you to understand.
God, you are such an ass.
I get that you are saying a “top-notch” (I’m beginning to hate that phrase) GM would be able to convince O’Neal to sit behind Humphries, and I am telling you, in my opinion, the greatest GM/coaching tandem of all time could NOT convince O’Neal to sit behind Humphries.
He might, in time, be convinced to sit behind a decent player, but even of that I am skeptical.
Marc,
Do you SEE the specific role which Stephon Marbury is accepting with the Boston Celtics?
Do you SEE the specific role which Allen Iverson is accepting with the Detroit Pistons?
Do you SEE the specific role which Jermaine O’Neal [i.e. a limited minute Starter] is accepting with the Miami Heat?
If there truly is an “ass” in these parts, well, then …
Nuff, said.
LOL, : )
Marbury – and what, exactly, were his other choices?
Iverson – is not willingly coming off the bench and was starting for the majority of the time in Detroit when it was obviously hurting the team. Why would a top notch GM let him kill that teams chemistry for so long?
JO – hmmm, somehow in his “limited role” in Miami has him playing more minutes that he did in TO. Guess our top notch GM had it right.
All three of these examples disprove your theory.
Raptoronto,
I can certainly SEE how someone who is not really sophisticated when it comes to understanding how an elite level GM and/or head coach actually operates in the NBA environment would hold these opinions about the situations of Marbury, Iverson and J-O’Neal. If you were someone who I felt was legitimately interested in learning something new about that … I would take the time to explain it further to you. Alas, what you’ve shown me, to this point, is that you are not someone who I should take the time to do this for. You are free to think as you wish, concerning the plight of those three players with their respective teams.
——————————————–
In stark contrast … I’d be willing to wager a sizable portion of my own hard-earned $$$ that someone like “Sanders”, for example … who seems to have a background in “management principles”, based on some of the comments which he’s left here … has a much better understanding of what is actually going down in Boston and Detroit and Miami right now.
Am I right or wrong, Sanders? : )
Seems like Raptoronto had some good points and some interesting questions to ask you which you failed to address.
There is a distinct difference between “listening” to someone and “agreeing” with someone. You only have respect for people who agree with you. Just because I disagree with nearly everything you say does not mean I am not listening to you.
I think I’m going to add the Borg to my list of popcult references to you.
Resistance to Khan is futile!
Marc,
Unfortunately, Raptoronto’s “good points for further discussion” lose their credibility with me when he chooses to conduct himself in the way he has towards me on RR and other web sites. He is free to do and say as he wishes and I am free to do likewise. When he asks a question of me which I deem to be valid, he will get an answer from me. When he does not do this, he will get no answer from me … which should actually make him A Most Happy Fella. : )
re: respect for others who disagree
What individuals like Flux, and Raps Fan, and AltRaps, and Dave, and Scott G., and phd, and etc., etc., etc., have all told you and others repeatedly is that each one of them has IN FACT had plenty of “disagreements” with me and, yet … somehow … I seem to be able to interact with each one of them in a way that conveys R.E.S.P.E.C.T. for what they think and allows each of us to carry on a reasonable exchange of ideas on this web site [and elsewhere, as well] with one another.
IMO, you need to think about THAT and perhaps realize where it is that you and I, for example, are falling short of this specific goal. If you do THAT then I’m confident this is a situation that does not need to persist. However, THAT is out of my control, and YOU will need to make that decision for yourself.
Best regards … and,
Keep On Truck’n : )
[apologies, re: the double post]
Marc,
Unfortunately, Raptoronto’s “good points for further discussion” lose their credibility with me when he chooses to conduct himself in the way he has towards me on RR and other web sites. He is free to do and say as he wishes and I am free to do likewise. When he asks a question of me which I deem to be valid, he will get an answer from me. When he does not do this, he will get no answer from me … which should actually make him A Most Happy Fella. : )
re: respect for others who disagree
What individuals like Flux, and Raps Fan, and AltRaps, and Dave, and Scott G., and phd, and etc., etc., etc., have all told you and others repeatedly is that each one of them has IN FACT had plenty of “disagreements” with me and, yet … somehow … I seem to be able to interact with each one of them in a way that conveys R.E.S.P.E.C.T. for what they think and allows each of us to carry on a reasonable exchange of ideas on this web site [and elsewhere, as well] with one another.
IMO, you need to think about THAT and perhaps realize where it is that you and I, for example, are falling short of this specific goal. If you do THAT then I’m confident this is a situation that does not need to persist. However, THAT is out of my control, and YOU will need to make that decision for yourself.
Best regards … and,
Keep On Truck’n : )
Your previous relationship with Raptoronto notwithstanding, I would still like to hear your response to his questions. So,
1. What were Marbury’s choices, besides toeing the company line in Boston?
2. Why didn’t Joe Dumars step in earlier and tell Iverson to come off the bench?
3. How do you account for Jermaine O’Neal increasing his minutes in Miami?
Update:
This is Iverson’s reaction to playing 18 minutes off the bench last night in Cleveland:
“How many minutes did I play? It seemed way, way, way less than that. Eighteen minutes? Come on, man. I can play 18 minutes with my eyes closed, with a 100-pound truck on my back. It’s a bad feeling, man. I’m wondering what they rushed me to get back for? For that? It’s a bad time for me mentally. I am just trying to get through it without starting a whole bunch of nonsense. I’m looking at the big picture. If I vent my frustration then it’s like, given who I am, I’ll be the one everybody points the finger at. I am just going to try to laugh to stop from crying.”
Does that sound like a happy camper? I don’t think so.
Marc,
On your own volition, you are someone who has taken the time to visit my blog and leave a productive comment. I appreciate that effort on your part. As a result, this is what I’ve now done for you.
FYI. Enjoy! : )
Please read post 37 :-)
Marbury & Iverson are both not working out for their respective teams. It seems as though they just might have some misgivings about accepting a lesser role.
O’Neal and Miami seem to be working out fairly well, but we will see what happens in the playoffs (I expect a first round exit for Miami, due to the fact that they rely too heavily on one player)
khandor,
While I’m not going to say you’re downright wrong about something, you write in a way that only works on a low-IQ audience. You put too much emphasis on rhetoric, as if you’re giving some kind of speech (with your bolded letters on your blog, your use of the phrase “astute nba observers would”). This the sort of crap that only a dumb idiot who can’t think for themselves would end up believing you for, just because you say it in a strong way.
Give that a break – most people here realize that you’re a lot of fluff and often don’t bother backing up your arguments. Your post about the Bobcats is the case in point – it would be one thing if these guys looked like title contenders but since they are not even close, not having any arguments for why their transactions were just so good is weak. You bring legitimate opinions to the table but at the same time, you are not very receptive to other people’s opinions.
“What’s plain and simple”.. man.. where the hell do you get this shit… all debate/rhetoric and no substance.
“Plain and simple” were the words of the original comment provider, not me. If what he said, in the first place, was not plain and simple to understand then, perhaps, you should ask HIM to clarify what he meant … that my perspective was placed in opposition to. : )
one cannot compare the legend to fire up dat douby denn. douby’s name should not be anywhere near 2Pac’s, no matter the context.
douby can go fuck a fish’s brains out for all i care.
TJ=CLUTCH
Yeah I saw that too. I miss that guy.
Lol at the douby and 2Pac (ill MC Though) comment
Anyone notice these comments are completely out of order, as per time stamp… or is that just me?
Khandor:
In your opinion, it seems as though the blame for the woes of this team are in fact the result of the management or rather mismanagement of Colangelo.
I think your argument of the top notch GM being the primary factor to the acceptance of roles within an organization is a legitimate one, however, i do believe that the coach is also a part of this process and it is his job to maintain, change and monitor the expectations of players on a day-to-day basis. To place this blame squarely on the GM would be erroneous although since he is in fact the leader of the organization, the chopping block lies at his feet, which is the argument you would no doubt make. This management is part of what makes Phil Jackson such a successful coach. Yes he is on the same page with a GM who knows what holes need to be filled, but Phil is still the one who has to maintain the chemistry. If that fails, it is HIS responsibility. Blaming the GM is the easy way out and is fools gold. A more in depth analysis will reveal that nothing is binary. Its no one persons fault.
However, given the current NBA climate, how would you go about changing the management team of the Raptors? Eliminating the possibility of a change in ownership. Give me some examples of available GMs who you would replace BC with.
Sanders,
Please note: I did not say,
“The primary responsibility for a player accepting his role with the team falls squarely on the GM.”
In this instance, my specific observation relates to the way in which part of the role of a Top Notch GM is to have the skill set which includes being able to get good-to-great players to accept their roles with the team, as outlined by the head coach. If a GM does not possess this skill set, he is not a Top Notch practioner, IMO.
I agree with your assessment that the skill set required to convince a good-to-great player to accept the role which the head coach has outlined for him is also a key part of being a Top Notch head coach.
What I’m adding to the discussion is that this skill set is in fact part of the criteria for being a Top Notch GM, as well, which is something that many NBA fans fail to realize when they seek to evaluate the body of work by a specific GM, especially when they fail to compare that work against the other Top Notch practioners in that field with a history of succeeding in this aspect of the GM game.
Dr. Phil is one of the very best there’s ever been at his specific job.
As were/are men like Danny Ainge, RC Buford, Pat Riley, Joe Dumars, Jerry West, Carroll Dawson, Jerry Krause, Red Auerbach at their jobs, as well.
BTW …
Not sure I completely understand, nor agree with – at least on the surface – your inclusion of … “nothing is ever binary” in this specific context.
That’s because everything is binary for you. Are you sure you are not just a machine? have you checked recently?
Sanders,
The first thing which needs to be done … given the parameters you’ve established in this scenario … involves a new decree at the ownership level which states clearly that the goal of the organization is to win the NBA championship, period.
Isiah Thomas is a lot of different things but one thing he is not … is someone who, as the owner of a NBA team, is lacking in a single-mindedness of purpose. The fact is … when Zeke was here, the objective of the organization was clearly stated on the wall of the Raptors’ management offices at the ACC. Personally, it’s been a while since I’ve been inside those offices, as a guest, and I have no idea if those words are still afixed to that wall … but, from all outward appearances, it certainly does not seem as though they are.
This talk of budget this or budget that … for a hugely profitable organization like MLSE is simply a red-herring. If the Raptors can, in fact, operate within the existing budget, that would be terrific! However, if they cannot, and the goal is to WIN … which is/was clearly the goal of a former NBA Champion like Zeke … then, it’s simply too bad if the team happens to exceed its stated budget in any specific year, as long as it happens to by a necessary ingredient that accompanies WINNING in the NBA landscape. Legit owners DO NOT get into the NBA business because they are trying to turn a profit with thier NBA teams. Legit owners in the NBA are rolling in huge amounts of $$$ based on the annual profits which are realized in their OTHER fields of business. Whether they make $$$ with their NBA franchise is a corollary, at best. Legit owners are in the NBA business for three simple reasons:
1. They want to win the League Championship.
2. They want to have fun as the owner of that team.
3. They want to see the actual “value” of their financial investment in the NBA appreciate over an extended period of time.
Any owner that does not have these three goals at heart is simply not a legitimate owner in the NBA … especially given the current economic climate.
Once this organizational goal is clearly stated, as a PRIME DIRECTIVE, it filters down through each and every aspect of the clubs day-to-day operations.
At that point, the task is now exceptionally for the President/GM. Go out and do what’s necessary to eventually win the NBA Championship … which, BTW, involves SO MUCH MORE than simply throwing a tonne of $$$ into the air, standing back, and hoping for the best.
This then leads to the 2nd thing which NEEDS to be incorporated in this organization if “the culture” is to truly change, in this specific regard:
The owner[s] of this team NEED to hold the President/GM accountable for the quality of the job he is doing in so far as ACHIEVING THE STATED OBJECTIVE OF THE ORGANIZATION … both, on a short term [i.e. year-to-year] and a long term [i.e. with a series of 3-to-5-to-10-year plans] basis … which, according to outward appearances, does not seem to be the way MLSE has chosen to conduct its basketball operations since assuming full control of the organization.
Although these might look like “semantic/surface” changes only, and far from block-buster/cutting edge upheavals, it is these types of changes which are eminently doable by this organization and the fundamental building blocks on which Championship Success is constructed in this League … going back to the days of the Great Celtics Dynasty.
Hopefully THAT addresses your question in a way which you can appreciate.
The time stamp is messed up….
Arse, is there any way that we can have the new comments highlighted somehow? Its impossible to sort through all these 140+ posts to sift and find out which comments are new.
Sanders,
That, specifically, is part of the reason most major web sites that get a high number of comments each day do not operate in Threaded mode.
Hopefully, Arsenalist can figure out a way to solve that problem for you, and others who choose to use that mode here and, as a result, miss a bunch of comments or, are forced to read back, in a pain-staking way, through multiple days worth of comments in a particularly active thread to search for the new ones that may have been left since they visited last which are now “embedded” in the middle of the overall thread as opposed to being listed in a simple chronological order.
Arsenalist is a magician when it comes to this type of stuff and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see him develop a first-class solution if you give him time to do so. : )
i just switch to regular mode when this becomes a problem, and then switch to threaded when commenting and when i find a debate i want to follow.
oh and just in case im not an astute NBA observer. I do have one other person that shares my opinion on the matter of whose job the acceptence of roles on a team is:
“I think the most important thing about coaching is that you have to have a sense of confidence about what you’re doing. You have to be a salesman and you have to get your players, particularly your leaders, to believe in what you’re trying to accomplish on the basketball floor.”
PHIL JACKSON, interview, Apr. 9, 1996
The Zenmaster knows of what he speaks. : )
The same holds true for being a Top Notch GM in this league.
Marc,
At this specific juncture … my best guess is that none of Boston or Detroit or Miami is going to win the NBA championship this season.
As a result, each of these three players is going to be perceived by different NBA fans as having contributed in a big way to the demise of their team’s title aspirations. IMO, however, the way things stand right now for each of those three franchises, these individual players should not be seen properly as the primary reason for that failure.
Miami’s overall roster is simply not good enough yet to get the job done.
Detroit is in the process of re-tooling their team and re-stucturing their operation while attempting to remain competitive with a High End product on the floor. After so many years at the top end, they are actually doing remarkably well, in this regard, this season.
Boston without a 100% healthy Kevin Garnett … will not win the title this season, with the rest of their current roster, which is now fixed for the post-season [I think]. By not replacing PJ Brown and James Posey in the off-season with similar calibre players the Celtics made themselves somewhat vulnerable this year and should not have been considered the favourites to repeat their championship success over the Lakers.
Completely unrelated, but this “project” charting the Raps defensive stats could be something to keep an eye on:
http://realgm.com/src_feature_pieces/757/20090331/charting_toronto/s_defensive_play/
A couple of interesting tidbits:
Once both [Rose and Gordon] got going, well, the Raptors couldn’t really do anything because they have but two players who are decent perimeter defenders against guys under 6’5 and those are Parker and Roko. Both did a reasonable job, but it’s difficult to contain that kind of athleticism without a shot-blocker, so we got to see the upside of running two small, athletic guards against a defensive line such as Toronto fielded.
and:
So, the basic assumption that Calderon is a poor individual defender was borne out. The demise of Anthony Parker’s defense seems a little presumptuous after watching that game and the Raptors as a team didn’t look bad on many possessions.
Agree:
Keep Hump, O’Bryant, and Pops
Diagree:
Joey Graham – Although he has been playing better under Triano, he’ll never been better than he is right now. By releasing him we’ll save 3 million which can really help with signing free agents this year or next year.
Voskhul/Jawai – I’d rather keep Jawai simply because he’s much younger than Voskhul. It’s unfair to assess because he didn’t have enough time to show his skills and talent. Jawai has room for improvement where Voskhul is looking for a place to retire soon.
Marcus Banks – Buying him out wouldn’t really help Raps with cap space. So I think the best option would be make a trade. (Your probably thinking who would take him). A trade that involves Banks and Kapono thats 9 million dollars in total. Get player like Maggette or Dunleavy (thier both about 9 million) to reaplce SF position. Both Maggette and Dunleavy suffered injuries and I’m sure other teams would be happy to trade them.
Matrix – I truly think we should resign him but only if it under 8 million. He is solid wing player and defender, so far Raps been winning because of thier solid front court. But if doesn’t agree there are plenty SF Free Agents who I think would happily agree with 5-7 mill.
Parker – I really like AP because he’s good player and I think we should resign him. Offer him 4-5 mill and make him a role player.
Free Agency:
Raps should really go after SG this year. Having said that there are only 2 good SG that can help aps. Ben Gordon or Jamal Crawford are both solid players and their a great complement to Bosh. Both are clutch and can take over a game in close games. Raps however shouldn’t get carried away with bidding, max 10 mill.
NBA Draft
Yes Raps have bad history with drafts but they have a chance to get 7th pick this year. Raps should use this pick to draft a PG. Calderon CANNOT play 30+ minutes. Roko needs to work on his dribbling, shooting, passing, pick & roll. Thats why I think Raps should draft a PG who can contribute 14+ minutes. Some suggestions are Ricky Rubio (If he slips in the draft), Ty Lawson (Carrying UNC to possible tittle), Stephen Curry (Smart and Solid PG)
Roster:
So this how my roster would look like for 2009-2010 season
Strating Lineup:
PG Jose Calderon
SG Gordon/Crawford
SF Marion (if resign)
PF Chris Bosh
C Andrea Bargniani
Bench:
PG Roko Ukic
PG Ricky Rubio/Ty Lawson/Stephen Curry/Other
SG Anthony Parker
SF Maggette/Dunleavy/Other
PF Pops/Hump
C Jawai
no to ben gordon!!! what we will have is a tiny backcourt where both guards are not that good defensively. i prefer ben gordon off the bench, the 6th man. plus the guy will probably demand more money and years after gettting that 1 yr deal for this season. uhmm,, i like jamal, he’s a bigger version of gordon, but he is inconsistent also like AP. sometimes he gives you 50, the next game he scores 4. if he comes cheap, i’d like him to come here around 4-5 million, short term deal. he has a better chance of winning here and i read that he has a feud with Dawn Nelson.
i’d keep voskul. he’s cheap. he does not complain, he likes TO, he now leads the cheering squad of the bench since we dumped hassan adams. he is a veteran big guy. he may be a decent punching bag of bargs, bosh, or pops. give him a veteran’s minimum. although i’d still take rasho over him, we shouldnt have traded him away.
joey,, i honestly dont like our best defender to leave. he is our main guy off the bench. we need his rebounding (wow we outrebounded orlando tonight!) and energy. i’m not expecting that much offense from him, as long as he does what he does-driving to an open lane and finishing strong). keep him if he agrees on a reasonable deal. if not, sign his clone. LOL
AP, i like AP as another role player. a decent role player. he could be helping championship contending teams. very good ball IQ. keep him if he agrees on a reasonable deal.
marion. i wish he stays but can we afford him?
free-agency: i dont like the idea on being aggressive on the free-agent market. we did that a couple of seasons ago and we failed. we overpaid jason crapono, then got some euro guys like garbo whom we then bought out, got garbage out of nowhere (moon).
draft: we need a 2 guard. AP is old, Crapono is crap. roko is our backup point guard, but he needs to improve this summer.
Please read post 37
Actually … what it says above under my name is that Bill Russell was an under-sized Center in comparison with a physically dominant Center like Wilt Chamberlain AND the physically dominant Centers in today’s game.
————————————————————————
All kinds of people who might disagree with my specific opinions about the game of basketball, in certain areas … ranging from the likes of Flux, Dave, Scott G., Raps Fan, AltRaps and phdsteve to the likes of Jeff Van Gundy, Phil Jackson, Hubie Brown and John Wooden, etc. … have substantial quantities of Basketball Acumen, IMO, in varying amounts, of course, based on what I’ve seen and heard [and, in some cases, have discussed with] from them. The person who disagrees with my opinions, in this specific instance, and does not fit into that same category happens to be is YOU. : )
————————————————————————
Inaccurate info?
ROTFLOLWKAS, : )
What qualifies a player like Bill Russell as being “under-sized” for the Center position, in the NBA, is the combination of his height and weight.
Basketball Reference
NBA.com
LOL, : )
It’s not the “thread” that’s dead, here …
Did you even check your links?…NBA.com – Russell is 6-10…lol.
… and, according to the basketballreference.com link I provided, as a point of comparison, The Great Bill Russell played at 6-9, 215.
ROTFLOLWKAS … : )
————————————————————————
“What qualifies a player like Bill Russell as being “under-sized” for the Center position, in the NBA, is the combination of his height and weight.” – by khandor
————————————————————————
It really is quite amazing how THE POINT of somethingg can be explained to someone like you in black & white, and/or in CAPS, and/or italics, and/or in Bold … for added emphasis … and you, somehow, still manage NOT to get IT.
LOL, : )
Yeah, trust a third party site over the league he played in…lol. I actually know for a FACT that we are both wrong about this minor quibble but I wanted to see if you actually had the acumen you claim is only yours . Russell is 6-9 1/2…ask me politely and Ill tell you how I know this for a FACT…but someone like yourself does not like to be corrected so it’s unlikly you would be open to the discuss as it would lead to you admitting you are wrong (god forbid).
The fact that Bill Russell happened to be 6-9 1/2 … rather than 6-9 … when he played in the NBA is now irrelevant to YOUR point in this specific exchange.
How come?
What YOU wrote the first time is that, IYO, Bill Russell was not 6-9, as I said he was, but rather 6-10.
You did not say that Bill Russell was 6-9 1/2.
If you would have said that Bill Russell was in fact 6-9 1/2, at that time, what I would have done was congratulate you for the degree of exactness which you showed … for this is, indeed, the height which Mr. Russell refers to himself as being when he talks about playing in the NBA for the Celtics. : )
Alas, you did not say that, however. : (
What you said was something other than that. : )
What YOU said was that Bill Russell was actually 6-10, and the single site which you referenced for that claim was NBA.com.
Now … if you recall … what I did, in contrast to that technique … was provide you with 2 separate links to 2 separate highly respected resources of basketball information:
1. NBA.com
2. Basketballreference.com
On NBA.com Bill Russell is listed at 6-10, 220.
On Basketballreference.com Bill Russell is listed at 6-9, 215.
I think you are smart enough to do the math for those two sets of numbers yourself, although I could always be WRONG about THAT. : )
Now … if the fact is that Bill Russell was actually 6-9 1/2 during his NBA playing days and different web sites like NBA.com and Basketballreference.com DO NOT list players’ heights according to half inches … then the more accurate measurement to use in this instance, to represent his real height between those two options, would in fact be 6-9, as opposed to 6-10, since in standard mathematical operations the correct method of rounding when using heights, specifically, is to ROUND “DOWN” [to the smaller number, which is known, for A FACT, to be a height that Bill Russell actually reached, AT LEAST] and NOT “up” [to the larger number, which is NOT known, for A FACT, to be a height that Bill Russell ever reached during his lifetime, if his actually measurement was IN FACT 6-9 1/2]. : ), : ), : )
Regardless … and, as I said before … it’s certainly amazing how someone like you can have the FACTS laid out for him in Black & White … i.e. that what matters most when considering a Big Man under-sized, or not, is the combination of his height and his weight, together, rather than his height alone … and, yet, still NOT manage to GET the POINT, somehow.
It’s not the thread that’s dead …
ROTFLOLWKAS : )
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