Love that look.The Roll Call is all the post-game coverage you need but for habit’s sake, let’s complete the formality. An easy win over the Bucks which you just didn’t see coming. I was expecting to see some Bobcat-type hunger from Milwaukee but instead it looked like the Clippers had just switched jerseys. For a team that’s spitting distance away from the playoffs and playing a beatable opponent, the Bucks sure did disappoint. The Raptors jumped on them early and then jumped on them some more in the second, played even in the third which meant the fourth was garbage time. As with every remaining game the result hardly matters and we’re looking for individual progress and something to cling on to for next year.
You have to start with Bargnani. Is he teasing us so we can build hopes over the summer only for them to be crushed by the return of VL? I sure hope not because right now he’s playing…dare I say it…#1 pick worthy basketball. When was the last time you could say that without someone calling you demented? Now the 23/2/2/2 with 3 turnovers isn’t jaw-dropping by any means but that line doesn’t tell you just how aggressive he was with and without the ball. He showed us his entire arsenal last night: baseline drives, curling drives, two-handed dribble post-ups and of course, threes. He used the ball-fake as well as he’s done all season and faked out Charlie V and Elson enough for them to exchange accusing looks. The 2009 Bargnani is the only Raptor that has the ability to consistently draw a help defender and thus force defensive rotations, Bosh used to be that player but not this season. His three wasn’t falling tonight and he missed some good looks otherwise he would’ve gone off for 40.
Bargnani’s movement after setting the high-screen has also improved, he was either finding a seam to the rim or stepping out to an open area, how many times he was found is a different issue. Earlier in the year he used to set that screen and go right to the top of the three-point line which made the pass harder for Jose and the recovery easy for the defender. In the first half he was always open after setting the screen because he cut hard and Charlie/Elson/Sessions weren’t communicating. Calderon missed him a few times (even though he has his hand up, like, all the time) but did hit him twice for scores, once recognizing a good mismatch on a smaller player.
Calderon started the game by having Session blow by him but after that it was all him. He had 19 points and 11 assists and I’m happy to say that those 11 assists were sweet, not just Bosh jumpers. The distribution went like this: 5 to Bargnani, 2 each to Bosh and Marion and one each for Kapono and Parker. He also found Marion and Parker on the break a few times off the early outlet but they happened to get fouled – the NBA needs to start keeping track of that stat, it’s getting lost in the mix. He took it to the rim in 1-1 and 2-3 situations as Parker, Bosh and Marion were making a much better effort to run ‘n gun and it resulted in 13 fastbreak points and as I said, it should’ve been more but for the FTs. Marion must’ve taken Jose aside at practice and communicated secret signals because those two were in-sync! The no-look alley-oop they executed was as nice a play the Raptors have run all season.
Charlie V never got going for them, he had some clumsy early turnovers and his shot looked cold, with no Redd in there the next man in line was Richard Jefferson and he finally went off against the Raptors. Jefferson had 12 of the Bucks’ first quarter points and was making Marion look average. Good hesitation material, a smooth jumper and a threatening slashing game have always made Jefferson a favorite of mine and if it weren’t for him this blowout would’ve started early. As it was we had to wait till the second quarter which was the best offensive quarter the Raptors have had all season. 40 points on 11/15 shooting and 12/13 FTs.
The Raptors hit 6 threes in the second quarter and it was an example of some great quarterbacking by Jose and some very unmotivated Bucks defense. Jose usually just passes to Bosh after the initial screen action but today he made an honest effort to look for Marion and Bargnani instead of Bosh who instead went directly to the rim to contest for rebounds. The result was a Bucks defense that had to pay attention to two other players instead of just Bosh. It helped that Marion and Bargnani did a good job of getting open by flashing to the mid-point area, elbow and by sealing off their man making the pass more obvious for Jose. Whatever it takes man, whatever it takes to get Jose to pass you the ball I’m all for it. Scott Skiles described his players’ inability to keep up with what the Raptors had going:
We’ve covered the stuff ad nauseam, as much if not more so than any other team in the league. I’m absolutely positive of that. The game started and we were behind their actions, we weren’t in front of them, we weren’t anticipating what was going on.
He’s right, the Bucks seemed a step too slow all night long, or at least when it ended up mattering which is in the second quarter.
Bosh assumed the role of garbage-man for this game, his rebounding and boxing-out was excellent, the only lapse that I noticed was when he failed to put a body on Charlie V and gave up a put-back dunk in the first. Other than that he was trying to get offensive rebounds, putting a body on his man and always helping on Sessions and Jefferson’s penetration (albeit sometimes unsuccessfully). When all five starters score at least 17 points you can get away with taking only 8 shots.
Here’s my take on Bosh’s personal issues. Leave him alone and stop writing about it. I’ve seen about 10 blog posts that are either questioning his character, questioning Feschuk’s professionalism, dissecting its impact on his game blah blah blah, who cares? Just give it a rest and let the man deal with his problems as I’m sure he will. This site has criticized the crap out of the guy but the last thing the man appears to be is unreasonable. Having said that, I always new big-forehead-girl was trouble.
Let’s play a game, it’s called Jason Kapono: Points or turnover? It’s pretty simple, all you have to do is pick whether Kapono, after coming off the bench, will either score first or turn the ball over first. So, what’s your pick? He was 4-7 for 14 points and 3 threes but did have 2 turnovers. So, what’s your answer? Well, if you answered “Points” you’re wrong. Kapono graced us with his presence at the start of the second quarter and at 11:07 of that quarter he threw a terrible pass. Folks, that’s been Jason Kapono: Points or turnover?, thanks for playing! A word about +/-. How does Bargnani who was arguably our best player tonight end up with a -2 and Kapono ends up with a +18? Well, it’s because Bargnani played in a garbage-time stretch of the fourth quarter where the Bucks knocked down 6 threes and Kapono didn’t.
Finally, Roko needs some playing time. 10 minutes in a blowout while Calderon and Parker get 38? That makes no sense and Triano needs to see things for what they are. He needs to literally free Roko and give him at least 25 minutes, if not at the expense of Calderon, than at Parker or Kapono’s. Shove him there with Jose if you have to and switch Jose to off-guard for a few minutes, does it really matter anymore?
Easy win, enjoy it if you can.
Liners:
- Charlie V promised to deliver before the game but never did.
- Pops missed the game due to a knee problem.
- The half-court shot for a million bucks literally rimmed out for the guy. That must suck.
- Shawn Marion (17/9) was eying for the rebounds tonight, he even snatched one away from Jose. Probably knows this is a game that’ll get more than a boxscore on ESPN tonight because of its playoff implications.
- So we put a dent in the Bucks’ playoff hopes. It doesn’t feel as good as I thought it would. Golden State has “overtaken” us for 7th worst and has a game and a half “edge”. League standings.
- The girl who’s always doing the promotions at the ACC is pregnant.
- I thought Charlie V’s foul on Marion could’ve been called a flagrant. No reaction from any of the Raptors, would’ve liked to seen one.
- Nathan Jawai got in for 35 seconds and didn’t do anything. Literally.
- Dwayne Wade missed a three that would’ve won the game. Check Moon’s smile at the end of the video here.
- Here’s a picture taken before the game of Andrea Bargnani with Carolina Morace – the best Italian women’s soccer player. Ever.
- 17,401 my ass. That was one of the worst crowds this season. I though we were down 20 at one point.
Thanks for swinging by the site even though the season’s over. We appreciate every “rap”. Tweet tweet.
119 Raps
Arsenalist, you write as good a game-summary as any I read, anywhere. Always enjoy it.
FACT – Arsenalist is the best blogger/fan reporter in the Raps fan community.
Agreed. But wanna do me a favour, Arse, and look up the meaning of the word literally.
Since there wasn’t a reaction to tj getting raped last year, there wasn’t going to be one for a rental player. It wasn’t even close to being called a flagarant foul (sorry man, but it was a good hard foul in my books)
The girl who does the promotions (Lara) is about 7 1/2 months pregnant. I know that they purposely attempted to not let the pregnancy interfere with the basketball season (and it seems that they had perfect timing).
Although it was pretty borderline, I would’ve called a flagrant on Charlie V because it looked like he pushed Marion with his other arm. That was dangerous and completely unnecessary.
To his credit, at least Voskuhl had a reaction to the foul.
Check out what Z-BO said about Bosh:
“I’m better than Chris Bosh,” he said. Told that line will make headlines, Zach gave a dismissive wave and said, “I’d tell him to his face.”
LOVE IT.
Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j1q6osDAEc
Exhibit B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A13PKLR-HyY
You be the judge.
“I don’t even know what he’s doing Leo” = Classic
Better than Bosh as in a better eater and a better strip-joint participant?
i think randolph is really better than bosh. the knicks were making noise early in the season, until they traded away their 2 best players for salary cap relief. randolph is an instant 20-10 guy, a decent post player who can hit the jumper. he is also a tough guy. the only thing he lacks is blocking shots. and unlike bosh, z-bo plays well against opposing team’s big men most of the time. z-bo and bargs i think is a better frontcourt duo than bargs and bosh, kinda like boozer and memo. bosh and bargs are play similarly, esp now that bosh loves shooting the jumper.
PART ONE
As was identified in THIS THREAD, yesterday …
last night’s gamed at two distinct junctures:
#1. At the Opening Tip, when Scott Skiles made the decision to align his Bucks’ individual defensive match-ups incorrectly;
and,
#2. At the later point in the 4th Quarter, when Scott Skiles finally made the correct coaching adjustment and switched the Bucks’ individual defensive match-ups to:
Elson vs Bargnani
Mbah A Moute vs Bosh
Alexander vs Marion
In general, it’s specific decisions like these that play a major role in determining Winners from Losers in the NBA on a nightly basis, once the teams’ player rosters have been constructed by their respective GMs.
PART TWO
Although the Bucks are still challenging for a playoff position, technically, they have decided to take a solid long term approach to the remaining games they have on their schedule this season … to play different players on their roster in a variety of different situations to allow them to grow properly as still young NBAers. This is evident if you look at their MP in last night’s game as well as others coming the down the stretch this season.
Kudos to their GM [John Hammond] and coaching staff [Skiles & Co.], in this regard!
In a single season, without making insidiously destructive moves in the name of progress, the Bucks have ceased to be a laughingstock any longer in the NBA.
the game was pretty much over in the middle of the 4th. To get a proper assessment, you’d have to see those match ups when the game was still on the line…
re: Z-Bo
There’s are plenty of reasons Zach R. will never be selected to play for the USA’s Men’s Basketball National Team. This is yet another one.
Khandor, please start using threaded comments. PLEASE.
I’ll second that motion. Khan thinks he’s 007: licenced to post in any damn way he chooses.
i’m pretty sure z-bo is as interested in playing for the olympic team as much as i’m interested in eating a shit-filled chimichanga.
I don’t think he’s as as bad as a headcase as some make him out to be. He’s one of those guys that needs a great leader on the floor and he’ll follow suit. Show him the light and he’ll follow it. He was part of the Jailblazers, the mishap that was the Knicks and now the Clippers where Baron’s taking night offs.
He needs a motivational coach because that’s obviously his main issue. Talent-wise his post-game is better than Bosh and his jumper is close to Bosh’s. It’s the shape and effort that’s been questionable but if you throw him in a non-rebuilding situation I think he’d be fine.
And he will not play defence
So if BC keeps this team largely intact for next year (which he shouldn’t) does it only work if Bosh becomes a garbage man (and I mean that in a good way – cleaning the glass, focusing on his D)? Would he ever settle into such a role?
He wouldn’t want to play, and the USA brass wouldn’t want him to play.
I would be extremely surprised if anyone (including Z-Bo himself) ever even considered the idea.
Any guy with an ego like Z-bo has flirted or even convinced himself that he’s good enough or even “too good” to play for their country… not that he’ll ever get the chance. Maybe if they have a Crispy Creme sponsored team he could be in the bigtime… Any suggestions for his Crispy Creme teamates?
great writeup arse.pleasure to read…….and khandor u faggot stfu.”andrea bargnani is not a solid basketball player”…lol.u dumb fuck.your basketball acumen is lacking bitch.kudos to being a punchline.
Andiamo, enough with the personal attacks. Seriously.
can we have a duel to the death? the winner will be crowned “khandiamo”…=)
best comment ever.
very nice one indeed!
pussy…..seriously.this fucking goof is a joke and u fucks are enablers.
vile yet very accurate
lol freedom of speech is a bitch.
Great summary! You nailed it! Only thing I would have added from the game itself was when the pregnant promotions girl asked the fans ” What is Anthony Parker’s most dreaded chore?” I thought the answer should have been “playing one on one with his sister” because it’s the only time he is consistent…” She kick’s his ass every time!”
Pregnant girl’s name is Lara. Thanks. (much nicer than referring to her as pregnant girl)
Sorry man, didn’t know she was your friend, and didn’t know her name. By the way if you know her so well what’s up with that hair??? Also does anyone have a bigger mouth than her??
No idea on the hair change. She used to have messed up jibs and got them fixed end of high school – maybe thats why her mouth is like that – used to be proportional.
Your posts are that much sweeter when we win arse!
great article arse!
It makes you wonder again, why this team couldnt put together a consistent effort every night. I mean, I know its the Bucks, but still, if Bosh, Marion, Bargs, and Jose brought their “A” game every night- you’d have to believe this team would be at least .500? no?
And btw, how good was Roko last night? He had a really nice game. Not sure the stats reflect it, but he rally pushed the ball nicely and got his teammates alot of open looks.
Hey Arse, I totally agree with you about Bosh’s private issues…one thing is to criticize his action on the court, another totally different is to jump to conclusions (or make a big fuss) about something that is still to be defined and decreed. When the ruling of the court will come out, then we’ll be able to give an opinion on his moral stature…
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He wouldn’t want to play, and the USA brass wouldn’t want him to play.
I would be extremely surprised if anyone (including Z-Bo himself) ever even considered the idea. – by Marc
—————————————
Which would only be Zach’s loss, at the end of the day.
I disagree, it would be his gain to not play. A loss if he did play. We’re talking about his weight right?
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I’ll second that motion. Khan thinks he’s 007: licenced to post in any damn way he chooses. – by Marc
————————————–
Hey … I like THAT line A LOT. Might just need to add that one to my current collection.
Much appreciated, and thanks, in advance, Marc.
And yet you still don’t listen…
phd,
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It makes you wonder again, why this team couldnt put together a consistent effort every night. I mean, I know its the Bucks, but still, if Bosh, Marion, Bargs, and Jose brought their “A” game every night- you’d have to believe this team would be at least .500? no? – by phdsteve
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When the Bucks coaching staff concentrated their efforts in the correct way, Milwaukee was a solid match-up vs the Raptors last night.
Bargnani + Bosh + Marion … is a flawed set, at the #5, #4 and #3 positions … which is not going to advance the Raptors up the EC Standings this season, or anytime soon.
GM’ed like the team has been GM’ed this season and coached like the team has been coached this season … the Raptors deserve to have the exact record that they possess right now.
IMO, the correct answer to the question you posed is, indeed, “No!”, much to my personal chagrin.
Arsenalist,
re: your position on the recent Chris Bosh revelations
Sound judgment on your part.
This is the Box Score from last night’s game.
One Raptors player posted the following set of simple game stats:
STARTERS MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OREB DREB REB AST STL BLK TO PF +/- PTS
Andrea Bargnani, FC 33 7-17 3-8 6-6 1 1 2 2 0 2 3 2 -2 23
while another posted this stat line, right here:
STARTERS MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OREB DREB REB AST STL BLK TO PF +/- PTS
Chris Bosh, PF 40 5-8 0-1 8-10 4 10 14 5 2 2 1 2 +10 18
Others are free to decide for themselves which of these two individuals … based on this game alone, and these simple stats alone … should be THE ONE who is being spoken highly of this morning by the Raptors’ faithful, in comparison with the other.
again, you seem to only see things the way you want to. Bargnani missed his last 5 or 6 shots, which were all taken in garbage time…
Bosh was the “garbage man”, and is very effective when he is in this role…such as in the Olympics. He has done this for the last 4-5 games.
The plus minus is also skewed because Bargnani was playing in garbage time with our wonderful bench…
Khandor.
Regardless of the fact that I believe Bargs & Bosh being able to be a top tier front court and you not. Beside the fact that when everything will be said and done I’m not so sure that CB will the better player between the two but we will have time to discuss about that and, last, not forgetting that if you split that stas by the $ each earn Bargs will be better aniway, in this specific case you are DEAD RIGHT.
The Hyunday player of the game = AB ? it was Jose for sure
but I understand that for the Press & the Raptors the only bright spot this year is Andrea, and it wasn’t the case to insist on CB yesterday due to the off court discussion
This on going bs between you two is becoming a pain in the ass.
Khandor….Bosh is not God
Andiamo…Bargs is not God
Both of you chill !!!
lol..what are you a bitch?…and if you think thats what its about,you are one dumb fuck…take a midol and quit cryin…fucking drama queen.lol.
Seriously, this Khandor guy is the reason so many savvy basketball posters don’t bother commenting on this site. A good portion of his comments are laced with veiled insults made to those who don’t agree with his reasoning or in most cases, failed logic. Why do you all encourage/support this but insist those who he offends should play fair? Go after the cause not the by-product.
Couldn’t agree more. Anything that isn’t a one-liner by Khandor is skipped right over. Total drivel.
Khandor,
You’re still the biggest idiot on this site, and are so biased against Bargnani it begs the question why? Are you the only one who hasn’t seen with the confidence of his coach and team he has greatly improved to deserve his number one selection. He’s 19 months younger than Bosh who was raised in the North American game, while Bargnani was getting his playing time in Europe. You also fail to realize that Bargnani plays way better defense which causes others to get rebounds.
Either way Khandor Bargs does many things that don’t show up in your stats. I am positive that Bargnani will be better than Bosh in 2011 which will be when he is Bosh’s current age. He’s already a better pure scorer, with more range and versatility, and a better defender, let alone a better team player. I also happen to think it’s refreshing to see he’s not a braggart and doesn’t blame others for the same things he does, and there is no way he will ever tell anyone he should be an MVP or all-star etc.. he will let others talk which is what a class player does in any sport. I’ve said from the beginning that Bosh and Bargs would be great together as Bryan envisioned, but what Bryan did not envision is a coach of a mediocre team would almost ruin his number #1 pick by giving him mixed signals almost every game, that he would allow Bosh to play a two man game with Jose at the expense of everyone else, and then also allow the same Bosh to suggest everyone else needs to play better to win saying nothing of the fact that when he hogs the ball they almost always lose. Yesterday they had something they rarely have but were supposed to get when drafting Bargnani….BALL MOVEMENT!!
wake up pal!!!
Open your eyes pal.
It shouldn’t even be possible to play spoiler to the Bucks.
Please,
Raised your hand in this fine forum if you were someone who had the Raptors pegged correctly to actually miss the playoffs this season when the team broke camp in October?
Thanks, in advance. : )
raises hand.
umm… do i qualify for this? : )
Also, Alt – getting close to my under 30 wins prediction.
Pizzaman, very nice synthesis of deep perception vs dry, humdrum and misleading interpretation of statistics.
Thanks caustic…much appreciated, but as I write this I’m sure you know who is out looking for some stupid stat to quote thinking it will make everyone somehow become an idiot and agree with his distorted views.
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the game was pretty much over in the middle of the 4th. To get a proper assessment, you’d have to see those match ups when the game was still on the line… – by ChrisR
—————————————
or, perhaps, journey back to the previous games that were played this season in which at least some of those specific match-ups were in effect, from the Bucks’ perspective.
As I wrote earlier, the Bucks did not play last night’s game with the sole objective of attempting to get the W; they were trying to win, alright, but only if it happened in a certain way, as it was their goal to explore a number of different situations for their different players who were on the active roster last night, according to what these eyes saw yesterday.
The Raptors played well yesterday … and, so did the Bucks, IMO. Each was working towards a very different goal though.
As I said, in the summer on this forum and elsewhere, John Hammond is off to a solid start with the Milwaukee Bucks, thus far.
you forget the little footnote that Bogut AND Redd played in the previous games.
I do enjoy some of your commentary, but you definitely have your own agenda at times.
Please try to see things from all angles.
Khandor,
“As I wrote earlier, the Bucks did not play last night’s game with the sole objective of attempting to get the W; they were trying to win, alright, but only if it happened in a certain way, as it was their goal to explore a number of different situations for their different players who were on the active roster last night, according to what these eyes saw yesterday.”
I understand your point of view. I disagree. Getting the W in any way, shape or form is the most pertinent result. For a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in years, I highly doubt they care how it comes, as long as it comes. I know you disagree. So to that I say…Proove it. Prove to me how they played well when their ultimate goal did not occur. (..and development of players, though beneficial, would not neccesarily be as beneficial to development, as, say, playoffs games).
ChrisR,
re: seeing things only one way about Bargnani
Trust that I saw accurately what Andrea Bargnani did well yesterday. There was nothing in my comment which alluded to Bargnani not doing anything well yesterday. Nor was there anything which extolled what Bargnani happened to do well in that specific game. Whether Bargnani did stuff well, or not, in this instance, was not the subject of what I wrote.
ChrisR,
FACT. Every single person in this world has their own agenda.
agreed,
and as for Bargnani,
I am happy with year 3 post Sam Mitchell…remember T-Mac in year 3? what did he do in year 4? I have the same “feeling” about him as I had for T-Mac at the time.
Some players just take a bit longer to develop their game than others.
His man on man D is night and day from last year, now if he can develop his help defence…he will be a very good player indeed.
My point is, he is not a fringe NBAer. He is someone with a very good chance of doing something special in this league, with a supporting cast of course.
I love Bosh, however, I disagree with you about playing him at the 5. His knee just can not handle this position for 82+ games. You generally seem to ignore this fact when posting…
ChrisR,
Footnotes are a wonderful thing. They can always be added in afterwords, if need be, and/or by others. It’s a collective process, when you reallt sit down and think about.
I agree with what you said, in that regard.
IMO, the Bucks are a better when they’ve got Bogut working as their starting Center, and a worse team when they’ve got Redd working as their Starting Off Guard, in comparison with bringing him into the game off their bench. Looking backwards to prior games isn’t that effective but sometimes it’s all you have to work with in a constructive way, as far as certain individual match-ups are concerned.
Redd off the bench? You nuts? He is and will probably remain one of the top scorers in this league. If he is not integrating properly with his teammates that is the coach’s/GMs fault.
I like Skiles but if he can’t find a use for a pure shooter like Michael Redd in the starting line up, then he is not an NBA coach.
Marc said “I like Skiles but if he can’t find a use for a pure shooter like Michael Redd in the starting line up, then he is not an NBA coach.”
LOL… Jason Kapono is a pure shooter, I guess that’s what caused Sam ‘More Shaaats” Mitchell his job.
Call me crazy, but I still think the raps would be better off with Kapono in the starting line up. They just need a defensive system that can hide him.
RBB,
I agree that this is not how the Bucks’ fanbase might prefer to see their team play in last night’s game … i.e. NOT going 100% for the 8th playoff spot, playing a short rotatio, etc., e.g. like the Bobcats … but, it is my considered opinion that THAT is precisely how the Bucks players and coaching staff and management team approached their match-up with the Raptors last night.
That’s what these eyes saw last night. That’s what this mind thinks today.
“Indisputable” proof of that? Now, that’s a different thing altogether, to come up and supply here to the necessary degree of satisfaction that it would take to make a claim that what I perceived last night was in fact a fact, so-to-speak, and that others who thought something else would in fact be WRONG.
Hence, I have not said anything approaching that … i.e. anybody being WRONG in their perceived notion of what exactly the Bucks tried to accomplish last night.
yertu, I actually do read what you write, just in case you were wondering. : )
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All I’ve got for you, RBB, at least at this point, is an educated opinion, FWLTIW.
Thats a fair assessment. I was quite interested in how you would argue the hypothetical question of which is more valuable “varying scenario’s” or “playoff experience” (with respect to development).
The one assumption that you made is that coaches, players and management are all on the same page (even though everyone has various agenda’s, which you mentioned a few posts prior). That I’m not as sure about as you are, but its a subjective argument, and where we may disagree (though an argument about that may become puerile and pedantic as there is no proff, so I digress).
What does FWLTIW mean?
ChrisR,
IMO, what Bosh’s knee cannot handle is playing 82 games at the PF position, rather than at the Center position.
When he’s had the good fortune to play Center primarily [exclusively?], has Chris Bosh injured his knee?
Now compare that with what’s happened to his wheels since he’s spent additional time playing the #4/PF spot for this team the last 2 seasons.
The “banging” which a player built like Bosh [or similar to other under-sized post players throughout the history of the NBA] takes everyday working in the low-mid post primarily is nothing like the wear & tear running & rotating & covering out, etc., builds up over the course of a NBA season and from year to year.
Do the research … Which players last longer in the NBA, in general, elite Power Forwards or elite level Centers?
RBB,
For What Little That Is Worth.
As I said before, I appreciate your style, content & aplomb.
Is you haven’t seen this, you may appreciate this as well. 11 years old. Crazy. I’ve seen people that can do all of this before..but not at the age of 11.
http://www.komonews.com/home/video/14008152.html?t=a&video=pop
This kid had a whole feature done on him by ESPN a while, while back. I think it there was an entire section of the website devoted to it as well.
The kids amazing indeed!! Only one kid I know who was likely better at that age and practiced harder…Pistol Pete Maravich. Check out his videos on youtube, and I think the skills the kid has are from the Maravich skills learning dvd’s.
well, maybe his knee just can’t handle an 82 game season period lol.
There is no doubt what position he sees himself playing, from some comments by the man himself in the past.
RBB,
————————————–
re: I was quite interested in how you would argue the hypothetical question of which is more valuable “varying scenario’s” or “playoff experience” (with respect to development).
————————————–
IMO, the correct answer is that … each has considerable value, depending on what specific place a franchise happens to be in, at the time, relative to it’s overall development as a hoped-for future contender for a spot in the NBA Finals.
Make sense to you?
It does (and is why I think varying scenario’s is not as important in the current Bucks case, as would be making the playoffs. Corollary: If you are indeed correct that management, the players, and coaches are on the same page, then it will lead to their folley this season and in the future).
ChrisR,
—————————————
re: well, maybe his knee just can’t handle an 82 game season period lol.
There is no doubt what position he sees himself playing, from some comments by the man himself in the past.
—————————————
In one of the great ironies of life, often times what we think we might want for ourselves in this world isn’t always exactly what’s the best for us at a given point in time.
Unfortunately, in Chris’ case, this reality has never been more painfully revealed than it has this week.
now there’s something I can agree with, so that must be the reason why I don’t have my headache stripper of a girlfriend around any more! haha
RBB,
Yes, I’ve seen the clip of Jayshaun before.
I actually saw T-Woods’ first appearance on network tv … live … on the old “Mike Douglas [Daytime Variety] Show”. Child prodigies happen from time to time in this world. Unfortunately, the vast majority do not end up as well-adjusted and as successful as Eldrick.
Back in the day, kid named “Sean Miller” was a pretty fair ball-handler [and all-around athlete, if I recall correctly]. You might know him better today, in his current line of work. Saw Sean first on the old Tonight Show, Starring Johnny Carson. Special young doesn’t always translate well to special old. [e.g. see the tragic case of The Pistol].
Sincerely hope that Jayshaun succeeds in life, whatever he chooses to pursue as an adult. It’s a long road, however; not a Sprint, not a Middle Distance, but a Marathon.
Are you saying that Pistol wasn’t special when he grew up? Are you kidding, all time leading college basketball scorer ( without a 3 point line) averaged 44 points per game and apparently stats showed he would have averaged 53 points per game with a three point line drawn in.
Also was great in the NBA, other than he suffered from depression and acohol binge drinking which pretty much destroyed his career, not to mention a mother with even worse issues who committed suicide.
Had Pitol not had all the personal issues he likely would have been the best ever.
RBB,
IMO, the Bucks might not think that they’re as far along the improvement curve right now as others do, including their own fans. From that perspective it might make more sense to their basketball peeps to forego a #8 finish just now, in lieu of a “bigger prize” down-the-road a piece, starting with an “upper” Lottery Selection this year, to go with what they’ve got in place already in the cupboard, and then subsequent playoff runs [plural] in the ensuing years … perhaps, once they’ve rid themslves of Michael Redd completely or, at least, reduced his central role on their team.
The signs point to John Hammond being in Milwaukee for an extended run.
Sound reasonable to you?
Not especially – things can change so drastically I have always believed that you go as far as you can with what you have (especially in basketball as compared to other major sports. Ball is a different breed of beast – very dissimiliar to other major sports). Milwaukee, unlike other franchises that have the ability to build a strong consistent contender and risk losing now, lack the history, the culture, and are a small market team (relative valuation to other teams). They need to go for it. They can’t afford to sit back and wait. FWLTIW.
OMFG if you would just use the threaded option you wouldn’t have to start every post with the name of the person you’re replying to and a freaking quote by that same person (The iphone is only so big, my thumbs get tired).
Sadly I think you like all this attention, negative or not. Which might explain why you won’t use the threaded option, god forbid anyone misses a post from kandor.
RBB,
I disagree. The History of the Milwaukee Bucks is traceable back to the glory days of Larry Costello, Oscar Robertson, Lew Alcindor, Bobby Dandridge and Wayne Embry. Although not the Lakers or the Celtics, that’s precisely the type of long-standing 2nd tier franchise that just might be able to afford to be a little more patient than many others, relatively speaking, despite even the mess of the current economic downturn and the real possibility that the Bucks are in a touchy situation financially right now.
With the injuries they’ve sufferred this season to Bogut & Redd, waiting for next season to make their push into the playoff picture in the Eastern Conference for the Bucks might not be such a bad idea from my perspective.
1) Last time they made it out of the first round was 2000-2001. Not, exactly, recent success.
2) They are also not a team which prized FA’s lineup to sign with.
3) Fiscal uncertainty (even before the market crash) which, in all likelihood, has gotten worse can only hinder their plight.
4) Not on the sun-belt (weather – which I guess is seemingly a factor for people now, though I don’t agree with this one myself).
Those are the main reasons why they need to be ‘in it to win it’. You can have no future without a present. If they do, in the future, need to trade their assets, would they attain better value for a ‘vet’ or a ‘vet’ with playoff experience? A step further (though this may be a reach), is that for every game that they prolong their season, they gain additional experience (and for the franchise, some extra $$).
You make valid points, however I am not sure that I am able to sign-off on your theory that the Bucks losing (even though they developed their players in the process), is the correct path for this specific franchise, in this specific situation.
arsenalist, altraps and allof you that own this site:
Can you somewhat FORCE Khandoor to use the Reply button ?
An user can max make two root reply?
Just sometimes( :) )he have something interesting to say but EVERYTIME it’s a mess to read the comment section….
Flux,
If you’re around today, please check your email account. : )
WTF, is this now a personal messaging system for this guy too? Wow, very disrepectful but I’m not surprised.
Khandor,
HA! I just sent you an email, but my inbox had nothing there from your end.
Khandor – I gather that you have your own blog-site. Based on your style of posting here, insisting on using methods and styles that seem objectionable to more than a few, one might guess that your website is likely a lonely place to reside. I do not write this to insult you … it’s just a guess. Yet, I can’t figure what it is you’re up to. If you’re using this site as a way to advertise what it is that you have to offer on your own site, you either don’t want anyone to actually go there, or you’re the worst salesman the world has ever seen. You have plenty to say, but you’re stubbornly resolute on doing things only YOUR way by not following and writing within existing threads, making it necessary to not only start a new one with each of your many many posts, but having to copy and paste each comment that you’re responding to, before you then respond. (How do you figure it’s ok to force readers to have to take that extra time – in effect, you’re stealing it, really – from each who tries to follow the thread along?)
Do you have any notion of what it is I am talking about? Do you have any inkling as to just why it is there are those here who express anger and frustration at your obstinate and uncaring manner and style? I suspect that you do, as you’re not dim. But … you come across as more than a little arrogant, in ways that are not at all entertaining … at least, not for many, I would guess.
This is not my website, I’m just an occasional visitor, so it is not for me to say if parameters should be established for you or anyone else here … and in a way, it would be a shame if someone like yourself forced Arsenalist to set rules just for you … or anyone (one of the great things about this site, for me, is the freedom each has to post what he or she pretty much likes) … but, in my opinion, you push it way beyond the boundaries of good taste and good manners. (I find myself wondering as I write, what you might do, if it was YOUR site being hijacked by a poster who insisted on playing by only his own rules?)
If I had to guess, I’d say that maybe … you are (somewhat subversively) bound and determined to ruin the good thing that RR is, in an underhanded and rotten kind of way. Because it just doesn’t add up. This is all just my opinion, but I wanted to offer it up, fwiw. Please consider.
Rap of the Year!
RR must have wronged him at some point. Beware the wrath of Khan!
1)
Is it more than a little arrogant to speak in double negatives?
“This is certainly not what an organization in ‘this league’ ought not to be considering…”
2)
Is it more than a little arrogant to constantly reply to others’ points by giving qualified responses to the point that people aren’t quite sure what you are saying, then throwing it in their face when they ask for elaborations?
Khandor says something like:
“If I were Bryan Colangelo, I would have been inclined to make somewhat different personnel changes (such as signing Rodney Carney, and letting go of Jason Kapono), given the players available that could be coached in this city, taking into account the Raptors overall situation.”
Someone asks Khandor:
“So, would you trade Kapono for Carney right now, all salaries being equal?”
Khandor replies:
“I did not say that. Review the comments I made, as they should more than sufficiently answer any and all queries. : )”
3)
Is more than a little arrogant to make absurd metaphors?
Khandor writes something like:
“Sometimes, the meal that you and I both eat, tastes bitter to one, but to another it is simply delicious. (and don’t forget the insufferable smiley face) : )”
4)
Is it a little more than arrogant to insinuate that other people’s opinions are invalid?
Khandor writes something like:
“Most people on this site, are not aware of the ‘best’ course of action for this team, and as such have shown themselves to lack the basketball acumen to properly diagnose the problems as they currently stand”
………………
No wsgisme, you are completely off base in your assessment.
If you going to do a caricature, you need the expression ‘top notch’ in there somewhere.
The best thing Khandor’s comments do is weed out the completely clueless and mindless people who are under the impression that they know what they are talking about and are “basketball wise”, while it’s obvious they are still getting daily diaper changes and hanging on to mommy’s apron strings.
and
The irony of them claiming HE is the one ruining this site with his commentary, while they are trolling and littering it with unnecessary foul language and bucket fulls of tears from their feelings being hurt due to a writing style or what particular comment method one chooses (that is a given option by the people who run the place, btw) to post by, and how completely oblivious they are to their actions or total lack of self awareness, is disturbing and sad.
Seriously, man up… save the drama for your mama and let people enjoy the freedoms of living. Live and let live, or call Dr. Phil.
I don’t buy what you’re saying one little bit. Khandor’s comments don’t “weed out the completely clueless and mindless people” at all. If they weed out anybody, it might just be those who’d rather think for themselves, about hoops or anything else.
And … what exactly is so offensive to you about profanity or “foul language”? They’re just words that have their own meanings (that we all understand) and generally, they serve the purpose quite handily … often, more concisely and illustratively than all the fudging word-play that some would rather be baffled with.
Not sure why you think people are trying to sell you anything. Unless, of course you are here shopping.
Not sure, either, about when his comments are not letting others think for them selves. Care to elaborate? But they absolutely weed out complete imbeciles that we all have to face on here everyday. It’s turning me off from coming here, because I know I am going to have to read 14000 comments about “Khandor your writing style hurts my feelings” or now “Khandor has a secret plan to destroy RR” (like WTF?) and etc. They ruin the other comments left by other people.
The offensive language, when overdone and misused (if there is an appropriate use) by many people on here – you know, as you would say: “pushing the boundaries of good taste”. It gets to be a lil much when 15 comments in a row are “stfu u lil bitch”
I guess it all comes down to level of sophistication, and you appreciate the “trucker talk” much more then I do. Word play must be for others, and I for one, do enjoy it. So, to each his own, I guess.
Oh, and I’m just not buying this Khandor “is up to something”, or that he is bent of destroying RR… (that is simply ridiculous to imply) and I find it funny that you mention freedom yet condemn him for using his.
Just my opinion, you know.
Wow dude, you are seriously delusional and a first-rate hypocrite. You cry more than anyone and have become almost as arrogant and insulting as the biggest troll and litterer in the Raptor photosphere – Khandor. Just as he chooses to pollute this site, you choose to defend him, some (myself included) choose to mock his many forms of absurd unjustified arrogance and expose his self-claimed expert acumen but most don’t feed the dragon and just ignore his drivel – freedom of living, right? But you are now the “freedom” police, you draw the lines? You’ve become a bigger ass than the donkey.
How do I cry more then anyone? I’m simply countering the unfounded cries of outrage.
Freedom of choice, absolutely. Difference, that you don’t apparently see, is that he talks about basketball, while you mock and insult. All I want is for that crap (yours) to stop. You ignore him? Hardly.
I can be as arrogant and insulting as anyone, yes… just giving a little back that you are dishing out. Kind of like this:
Of course you would know all about donkeys, as it’s clear from your comments that you were raised by two of them.
How do you like it? We can do this all day.
heading off khandor at the pass, should he respond to me in this way:
“more than a little arrogant,
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery : ) And I assure you, I am most flattered. lmaorotf”
………………
Heads up Khandor: this was not flattery. Just try to write a little, shall we say, more civilized?
Kandor has officially hijacked this post!
No, the emotionally unstable people that frequent it have.
Do you know the definition of hijacking?
His discussion is all bball related. These yahoo’s are crying about how he is not using “the threaded option”.
More and more, you sound like a ‘khandor apostle’. Did it cost you to join up? Or did it cost him?
You see what you wanna see.
I stand up for everyone equally. When ppl attack Arse, I do the same. When AltRaps get blasted and ppl take his roll calls out of context, Andiamo annoys me at times, but I’ve stood up for him in the chat before, etc. I don’t care who you are, I treat everyone the same, just don’t come on here (and you seem new around here) and just start blasting people. I’m an equal opportunity defender and attacker, you may say.
Fluxland – I didn’t write what I did to khandor with the intention of offending him. It wasn’t meant as an attack. I read this board because first off, I enjoy reading almost anything about the Raptors … but I especially enjoy whatever (it seems) Arsenalist has to say about things. As it turns out, I’ve come to enjoy reading most everything written by most everyone here … and yes, khandor generally included. I thought I’d take a shot at communicating to khandor what it seemed a few had already tried and I had meant to do so without being rude or disrespectful to him or to the board in general. If I fell short of that, I’m sorry for it. I certainly didn’t start off intending to offend you. I’d much rather read … and occasionally post a comment about my favorite sports team in the world, the Toronto Raptors. Hope we’re ok after all is said and done.
No worries at all, Sir. Not offended, even if it seems that way.
I know what you are saying about Khandor, and I understand the (mis)perception of his style, but I (100%) do not believe that’s the intent of it, at all.
not saying kandor intentionally planned this. that conspiracy theory is absurd. Just saying that there is more comments in this post about kandor than the raptors. Albeit there isn’t much to really care about the raptors at this point anyways.
That what’s I was saying earlier. I have to come here and read 1400 comments crying about how THE WAY he said something is making them fill their diaper, or 12yearold level insults. Losing my patience with this, but I don’t wanna stop coming here because I do enjoy the work of the ppl that own this place and the majority of the people that comment.
lol…flux is officially khandors bitch.
Khandor by reading your posts, past and current ones you say that Chris Bosh is naturally a 5 (centre) and he is being forced to play the Powerforward for the last 6 years. Don’t smear the site now with your philisophical bullshit but this is a comment you have said.
When you said that you lost any little credibility you might have had.
Joe,
re: Chris Bosh’s best position
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Please,
Raise your hand in this fine forum if you were someone who had the Raptors pegged correctly to actually miss the playoffs this season when the team broke camp in October?
Thanks, in advance. : ) – by khandor
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As best I can tell, only AltRaps has raised his hand, thus far.
Those of you have taken the time to read what I write on-line know already that I fit into that category, as well.
“Blind luck” isn’t the reason I’ve been right so often concerning what I’ve had to say about the Raptors, thus far, re: their player personnel moves, coaches, and management team. Whoever thinks that I am wrong in what I’ve had to say about what Chris Bosh’s best position is … is entitled to hold that opinion. Others have the choice of believing who and what they want. There’s a person who posts comments on this site under the name “Frank White” who thinks I am wrong in what I’ve had to say concerning the actual position which Tim Duncan plays, as well. THIS is the web site where “Frank” [White] chose to make his take known to a wider circle. THIS is what I had to say about the Big Fundamental’s best position on my own blog. You are free to make your own judgments, re: who is [most] Right and who is [most] Wrong, in the case of Tim Duncan. What I’ve had to say about Chris Bosh’s best position is fairly well known, at this point, and has been picked up by countless other web sites across the internet. Some comments agree with my specific take on CB4; others [the majority] do not. It makes no difference to me. In life, sometimes the majority opinion is the correct one to hold; other times it’s the minority. It’s the passage of time which best determines the accuracy of any specific opinion; that’s all. If/when I am able to find [or know of or am told of] indisputable “proof” that supports a perspective which I’ve presented on-line then you can count on me providing this proof for others to evaluate for themselves. Life is simply too short to sweat the small stuff.
There is a fundamental flaw in your argument. Positions in basketball are incredibly fluid. Very very very few players are a pure PG or a pure C. Pure centres, especially, are hard to find. Matchups, as well, are extremely fluid and change not only from one possession to the next, but even within the same possession. A lot of teams these days (incl San Antonio & the Raptors), play a prototypical PF at the fifth spot.
In my opinion, Tim Duncan, a prototypical PF, is at his best when he has a prototypical Centre to play along with (IE Nesterovic or Elson).
In my opinion, Chris Bosh, a prototypical PF, would benefit greatly from playing alongside a prototypical Centre, which Andrea Bargnani clearly is not (although he has recently improved his defense and rebounding).
Of course, being an insufferable condescending know-it-all, you are entitled to your own false opinion.
Marc,
What I am … is glad that an individual such as Jeff Van Gundy [and Mike Krzyzewski and Mike D'Antoni and Nate McMillan] shares the same opinion as mine, on a range of different subjects, including this one.
In my book, you can have “Frank White” on your side any day of the week. : )
- Bhand[or], 007 [with a license to post as I see fit]
Correction – you have adopted and siphoned comments from JVG, MikeK, MikeD and NMc and state them as YOUR independant thoughts (hence the K-fraud moniker). A trend I noticed. The last being your Grange-fueled crusade against Bargs siphoned from Granges last tirade of trying to stick it to BC for calling him out in his Marion trade interview.
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Correction – you have adopted and siphoned comments from JVG, MikeK, MikeD and NMc and state them as YOUR independant thoughts (hence the K-fraud moniker). A trend I noticed. The last being your Grange-fueled crusade against Bargs siphoned from Granges last tirade of trying to stick it to BC for calling him out in his Marion trade interview. – by Raptoronto
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Siphoned? Hmmm …
LOL, : )
Seems as though you have the order of operations reversed.
The FACT IS:
i. What I’ve said about the proper use of Chris Bosh preceded what was done by Coach K, and Mike D’Antoni, and Nate McMillan, in connection with the 2008 USA Olympic team;
ii. What I’ve said about the actual position which Tim Duncan plays preceded what was said by Jeff Van Gundy during that Bos/ORL game; and,
iii. What I’ve said about Andrea Bargnani, specifically, and the Toronto Raptors, in general, preceded any criticism directed at either of those two entities by Michael Grange, or any other member of the conventional media and/or blogging community.
Although you are certainly free to think the opposite, if you wish. : )
i – Khandor please explain the game strategy and required skill-set for bigs in the NBA versus the international/Olympic game? Are they identical?
ii – Tim Duncan – so you started this PF vs C debate that started the second The Admiral retired? Very impressive indeed. Was JVG a guest speaker in that game in 2003?
iii – Please reference all your “Bargs must go” links created prior to the Grange article…please insert only one link per comment so I don’t miss any (as you know my reading comprehension skills are lacking).
Catalogued references are well and good and make for fine looking comments on a sports blog. Yet the lack of independent thought, by “some”, often leads to incoherent failed analysis and the inability to consider opinions of the masses who provide self-determined valid, and more often then not, accurate analysis and conclusions.
I will trust that intelligent readers who took the time to digest what I wrote initially and then what was written after that, as well …
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i – Khandor please explain the game strategy and required skill-set for bigs in the NBA versus the international/Olympic game? Are they identical?
ii – Tim Duncan – so you started this PF vs C debate that started the second The Admiral retired? Very impressive indeed. Was JVG a guest speaker in that game in 2003?
iii – Please reference all your “Bargs must go” links created prior to the Grange article…please insert only one link per comment so I don’t miss any (as you know my reading comprehension skills are lacking).
Catalogued references are well and good and make for fine looking comments on a sports blog. Yet the lack of independent thought, by “some”, often leads to incoherent failed analysis and the inability to consider opinions of the masses who provide self-determined valid, and more often then not, accurate analysis and conclusions. – by Raptoronto
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can see for themselves how the actual “content” of the second submission is filled with material that is not related to the first and, therefore, in need of no explanatory response from me, other than this, of course.
As I said, sir, you are entitled to believe exactly what you wish.
LOL, : )
Thank you for making my point. Top notch.
Ditto. ; )