I dunk, you decide.They say that the first stage of any torture procedure is the worst because once you become used to the initial pain, whatever follows becomes easier to handle. That’s exactly how I feel about the Raptors. If they had put out the first half effort they did last night in Game 6 of the season I’d be outraged, but at this point it hardly makes sense to get angry about it and you’re probably better off thinking in terms of lottery balls. Someone asked me yesterday why this site is so negative and what’s the point of having a “fan site” if you’re not going to say anything nice. Fact is that the negatives outweigh the positives by so much that more than a 10% mention of the positives would be distorted blogging. Just take this game for example, Bargnani had a nice night despite the flu but that’s about it; the rest of the team mailed it in for the first half which is the only one that ended up mattering.
It started off harmlessly enough by Bosh attacking Dalembert on three of the first four possessions resulting in a missed jumper, a foul, a rejection and a dunk. That’s not too bad of a success rate for Bosh so I’m left scratching my head why he didn’t keep on doing that instead of taking jumpers for the rest of the half. Meh, I’m used to that too. Bargnani who was a game-time decision and decided on his own to give it a shot, he showed up smoking hot from downtown and knocked down 3 threes and had a nice drive for a layup in the first quarter. He was the only reason we got blown out in the second instead of the first. Bargnani was 4-5 in the first for 11 points while the rest of the team went a sad 4-16. Philly also struggled from the field and shot only 35% in the quarter which kept us in the game at 19 apiece, but that was all about to change. They shot 64% for the remaining three quarters.
The death-blow came in the second when we checked out defensively, couldn’t string together three proper passes and were as silent on defense as a victim in a snuff movie. Pick ‘n roll defense, ha! Why do I still expect them to defend it like a proper unit, am I insane? The way Banks/Bosh and Calderon/Bosh defended the pick ‘n roll against Andre Miller and Lou Williams was so bush-league that you have to wonder whether these guys even get rudimentary training in their practices. I haven’t played the game a high level, just some high school basketball and pick-up games two or three times a week but even I know that defending a pick ‘n roll involves components such as showing, hedging, recovering and most of all, communication. Assuming Jose, Bosh and Banks are familiar with these concepts, why is it that Bosh makes zero effort in trying to forestall the dribble penetration by forcing the ball-handler away from the paint? Why aren’t Jose and Bosh even calling out to each other during the play and why don’t they already know exactly what to do when Miller versus Williams are running the play? Why? Is it effort or just bad coaching? I’d peg it at 50-50.
We got killed in the second quarter by Iggy’s, Lou’s and Miller’s penetration which was finished in style and authority by Young, Dalembert and Speights. The on-the-ball defense was obviously terrible but what made the situation worse was how we weren’t bumping cutters and preventing them from having a clear path to the rim. Parker, Marion and Bargnani were too confused too often as to which one was responsible for the cutter resulting in all three of them starring as innocent bystanders in more than a few posters. The reaction from Parker after each one of these plays is the best, he just can’t come to terms with the fact that they’re this bad. It upsets him, I respect that. To counter the dribble-penetration we even went into a zone but it didn’t matter, they busted it open by hitting threes since we didn’t close-out. Zone doesn’t mean you back-up and let them shoot uncontested shots, sadly, I don’t think all the Raptors know that. Iggy, who’s a 29% three-point shooter hit a couple threes as Philly went 3-6 from downtown and forced the Raptors into 6 turnovers which upped the tempo of the game playing right into Philly’s hands, even though we’re supposed to be a running team (ha!).
Weird substitution late in first quarter saw Parker relieve Calderon to play the point which made no sense. AP has no reason to still be playing the point at the expense of Roko, does Triano know where the team is in the standings? As if feeling guilty for not playing Roko and Banks in the first quarter, he brought them both on in the second with Banks at the point and Roko at the off-guard. Neither could properly dribble the ball let alone create for their mates and the exercise was a failure. Banks doesn’t have the desire to attack and Willie Green was laying off Roko like he had SARS. The team was going through an offensive funk and needed someone to step up and pick up the scoring load like Bargnani had in the first. Bosh, you there? He had 2 points in the first, 3 in the second and finished the half 2-8. As mentioned already, his defense on the PNR was terrible and Dalembert easily neutralized him while getting his points by being active near the rim and presenting himself to his driving teammates. Our second-best player (Calderon if you need a reminder) had two points. The halftime deficit was 17.
When talking about the Raptors offense you have to start with Calderon. We know that his vision in the full-court is limited but he’s equally as inept in the half-court. It’s been said a thousand times but all he does is use a pointless screen only to pass it back to Bosh 18-feet out. If not that, he’ll waive of someone (often Bargnani) who might be demanding the ball on the wing only to use a pick with Bosh, pick up his dribble too early, and then look around for a teammate so he can reset his dribble. That back-court violation that resulted exactly because of this was bench-worthy. He’s even getting lazy on his top-to-wing and lob passes which get deflected and disrupt the flow of the possession. I don’t even expect him to put the defense on its heels by taking it to them off the dribble but can he at least try to turn off the high screen, attract a defender from the corner and try to kick it out? Please man, you’re killing us. Lastly, he seems to bark out a lot of orders on offense which don’t end up meaning anything. I’d love to blog one game sitting courtside so I can figure just what the hell Triano’s instructions to him are and whether it’s the coaching or Calderon that’s the problem.
Some post-game interview stuff. Anthony Parker’s saying offense wasn’t a problem since they shot a high percentage. I disagree, it was the lack of offense combined with the dismal defensive effort in the second quarter which cost us this one. He hit one thing right on the head, things are too easy for the other team. Shawn Marion’s talking about increasing the defensive intensity and asking us to go up to every Raptor and ask them about their defense. Chris Bosh gives the most hypocritical interview about playing defense by claiming that he cares to play any. The smile and jokes are sounding very Vinceish. Jay Triano’s pointing to dribble-penetration as the major problem by saying Bargnani and Bosh were forced to help and Dalembert was the chief beneficiary. He’s also pointing to Bosh’s lack of FTs by saying it’s because of Dalembert’s defense and Bosh’s unwillingness to drive. But the major finger is pointed towards the wing defense:
Bottom line is you got to keep your guy in front of you at some point.
I like how the reporters are now asking effort questions about whether it’s hard for the team to get up for these games since they don’t mean anything. Nobody’s obviously going to respond in the affirmative but you can tell by the tone of their answers that the fat lady has sung.
The task to turn around 17 point deficits on the road against a division rival isn’t something you want to be assigned. If you are by some divine miracle to complete it, you’ll have to play some suffocating defense or pray the other team just goes ice cold. Since we don’t play defense we had to hope that Philly starts taking bad shots and doing dumb stuff and that didn’t happen. Our scoring picked up as we managed to get on the run a little and Jose made some shots, set up Parker on the perimeter for scores but it was all a wash since Philly continued their unabated assault on the rim courtesy of dribble-penetration and cuts which were finished off by Young and Dalembert through all kinds of dunks, mostly of lobs and good interior passing. The result was a fast-paced high-scoring quarter where the Raptors failed to chip in to the lead. You got the feeling that Philly was comfortably in control because our defensive intensity (ha!) was non-existent. We had shown little defensive strategy other than playing some hopeful zone which got busted immediately and some early-pressure which was converted to layups by a spaced-out Philly 2-1-2. It was like picking up your only gun and shooting it right in your own face. Give points to Triano for trying.
Fourth quarter was a joke. Stat-padding all around. We made a “run” but it had everything to do with Philly already having the game in the bag more than anything else. It was one of those runs that you just know the Raptors will never actually compete because if it ever got too close for comfort for Philly, they’d up their defense and get the stops against a perimeter-oriented offense. Chalk up another L and yet another lottery ball.
One-Liners:
- Reggie Evans had an impact in the second quarter when Philly made their decisive run. I thought Triano should’ve countered with Pops immediately but waited too late.
- Bargnani with a very nice shooting game but he lost track of Dalembert on the boards way too easily. It’s not even a question of Dalembert jumping higher or being more aggressive, Bargnani just didn’t box him out or when he did, did it after he had conceded position. Kind of puts a damper on his otherwise fine game. He looks as comfortable putting the ball on the floor as I’ve ever seen him.
- Chris Bosh with a game-worst -27. Didn’t score when we needed him the most (second quarter) and seemed intimidated by Dalembert after he got his shot blocked a couple times. Mentally weak. Poor Raps Fan in an effort to be positive had given the edge to Bosh in the pre-game over Young.
- Other than Bargnani’s game, Joey Graham’s massive dunk on Dalembert and Parker’s good shooting game were positives. It is to be note that Parker’s off-the-ball defense and wandering, unplanned help did offset anything positive he did.
- Jason Kapono with another stinker on both ends. Held scoreless on 0-3 shooting and targeted by Philly on the defensive end. Got the hook after 9 minutes when it became clear he was a giant liability.
- If he is anything other than 100%, we need to shut Jose Calderon down ASAP. It’s lunacy to play him like this.
- Pops Mensah-Bonsu with 8 rebounds. What’s not to like about this guy? Isn’t it pathetic that after Bargnani’s 2009 play he’s the best thing that happened to the Raptors?
- Thaddeus Young and Marreese Speights: Two examples of good drafting.
- The more I see of Marcus Banks, the more I hate the Marion trade.
- Shawn Marion with 18 points but the majority of those were in the second half when things didn’t matter as much. Missed about three easy layups in the second quarter which could’ve helped us stay in the game. We put him on Iggy early on which did have its intended effect as he didn’t go off but in hindsight, maybe he should’ve taken care of Young. Triano couldn’t have known.
- Philly shot 56%. Could’ve been higher but for garbage time.
- Nice to see Ukic get out and play a bit in the second half. I’d much rather see him screw up while trying to do something rather than Jose not do anything at all.
- I remember the season-opener and wonder what the hell happened.
- Best Lineup: Banks, Ukic, O’Bryant, Marion and Pops going +8 to end the game in what was essentially garbage time. Worst Lineup: Kapono, Parker, Bargnani, Bosh and Calderon going -5 in that stink bomb of a second quarter.
In addition to talking Raptors ball all day on the blog you could also follow us on Twitter to make that work day go by a little faster. You can also latch on the RSS feed.
Thanks for reading. Do check the Roll Call.
Share
Switch to regular comments
95 Raps
…congrats arse on arsenal going through…..yeah,just watched post game video.marion is pissed.bosh is as goofy and delusional as khandor…..sad sad stuff overall…also,its only a matter of time until bargs tunes out as well,seriously.i saw joey,jose,roko,ru and ap all look off a wide open bargs tonight.getting him only 13 shots is inexcusable when hes hitting…every fucking time tonight when bargs had a guy pinned down low or had a shorter dude on him in the paint hes demanding the ball and he gets looked off.then the faggots clamour for him to develop a post game and bitch he only takes 3’s,its a joke.our teams a joke.
The more I see of Marcus Banks, the more I hate the Marion trade.
…and to think we’re out a few picks along with his contract?
rapsTV showed the double OT game b/w suns/mavs from mar ‘07 earlier in the day. just an awesome display of ball.
that’s what i was thinking about while watching the raps mail it in.
ok, someone turn off the italics…
Awesome wrap-up man. The torture intro is a great analogy, absolutely perfect!
Also, how did we let dalembert drop 19? What a disgrace, I think I’m more embarasses then the raptors!
Why don’t we all save ourselves a bit of angst. Could you guys cut your previews and post-game pieces in half and use the other half (or more) previewing the draft, previewing players who are FA/likely trade pick-ups or giving us Bosh’s unfiltered twitter feed and latest photo shoots. Like the players, I’m tired of this season. I can’t believe I thought they had a chance to make noise.
And thanks to the mini-pack I wasted my cash on this year I have 2 Raps games I can still go see. Yipee! Which will be more craptacular? Raps-Clippers or Wizards-Raps (at the end of the season, no less). Bryan, the quality of the entertainment has me all aquiver with anticipation. What do you think the fine is for throwing a bag of shit out onto the court? Is bagging it being too restrained?
POPS numbers when playing more then 1 minute in an NBA game this year.
2 Games before coming a Raptor:
GAME 1
VS CLEVELAND *** IN 12 MIN, 3-3 FG, GOT TO THE LINE FOR 7 FREE THROWS MADE 5, 6 REBOUNDS, 11 PTS, WAS A +10 IN AN 11PT LOSS, IN 12 MIN ***
GAME 2
VS PORTLAND *** IN JUST 7 MIN 2-4 FG, 3 REB, 4 PTS, A +7 IN AN 18PT LOSS
TOTALS AS A NON RAPTOR IN 19 MIN, 5-7 FG, 9 REB, 15 PTS, +17
3 Games with the Raptors:
GAME MIN REB +/- TEAM RESULT
1 15 10 +6 6PT LOSS
2 11 7 +3 8PT LOSS
3 17 8 +17 9PT LOSS
TOTAL AS A RAPTOR
3 GMS 43 25 +26
43 minutes 25 rebounds +26 in 3 losses that we lost by a combined 23 points……
ALL 5 GAMES COMBINED
62 MIN, 34 REB, +43, IN 5 LOSSES….
We need DeJuan Blair: http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/tourney/posts/56721-the-power-of-dejuan-blair
And Johnny Flynn!
When the players on an elite level basketball team “freeze out” a particular individual, at the offensive end of the floor [in a variety of different locations],
What’s the most frequent reason?
They play for their stats as they given up for the season. Don’t you know that ?
Raps Fan,
The main culprit responsible for allowing most of Dalemberts’ points … Was?
CB4, but you know already, so why you ask ?
Please please stop bashing CB4!.
Yes, he got a little off night, yes, he was 6 /16, got 3 BA, but I mean, those things happen even to the max franchise player.
I know I know, he just taken 3 rebounds, but he make 17 points.
So, stop bashing, and the true player will show up!
Franchise superstar: -27
Some guy we just signed for the league minimum: +17
YOUR…TORONTOOOOOOOOO RAP-TOOOOOOOOOOOOORS!
How about Jake Voskuhl with a -15 in 0 minutes played?
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290311020
Ha I saw that too…that has to be a screwup by the scorekeepers.
just shows how meaningless that stat is if they can’t catch that.
Mauro,
——————————–
re: CB4, but you know already, so why you ask ?
——————————–
… because the main culprit last night, yet again, was Bargnani … which I think Raps Fan may have been able to ascertain for himself from watching the game. Although I could always be wrong about that.
i saw an aaawwwful lot of dalmebert dunks off lobs into the post after bargs had rotated to help when the perimeter D broke down. i’m not sure what he’s supposed to do in those situations – if he stays on sammy, the wing has either an open lane to the hoop, or an open jumper. if he steps away from sammy to contest the drive/shot, no one was rotating down to help the helper, leaving him open. VL also just seemed disinterested in bodying up in the post & battling for position. of course, the same could be said for almost all of ‘em.
in no way am i suggesting bargs doesn’t deserve criticism – his overall game was subpar. but focusing only on his errors/mistakes & proclaiming him the ‘main’ culprit may be a bit overstated, no? there was plenty of blame to go around.
i was actually going to say marion, lol jk.
bargnani, although bosh had some hand in sams big game, the bulk lies with vl for sure.
yertu,
Yes, there was plenty of blame to go around … so the question then becomes … What’s the reason some members of the Raptors’ on-line hoops community seemed to focus primarily on the play of Chris Bosh last night? … to the tune of an ugly -27 [+/-] … when the more accurate assessment is that:
================================
When Jay Triano says in his post-game interview,
“We tried changing the angle on the Pick & Roll … there’s only so many different things you can do. At some point you just have to be able to keep someone in front of you.”
Do you think he is identifying either:
A. The Original Ball Defender; or,
B. The Picker’s Original Defender;
as being the MAIN culprit in last night’s game who was incapable of “Just Keeping Someone in front of you”?
… because IMO … when an NBA coach says that specific comment he is most frequently speaking about the Picker’s Defender, as the MAIN culprit, rather than the Original Ball Defender … which is, in fact, the exact opposite of what many “casual fans”, and “media types”, etc., mistakenly assume to be the case, in response to Pick & Roll/Pop Actions on the floor, from a defensive scheme perspective.
================================
Do you think Marion, Parker and Bosh are most upset with:
1. Jose Calderon?, or
2. Chris Bosh?, or
3. Jason Kapono? or
4. Andrea Bargnani?
… from a Team Defensive perspective.
i’m not overly interested in who’s ‘most’ upset with whoever. shouldn’t they all just be pissed with themselves? it’s not like 3 or 4 guys were playing stellar, and it was a small few who ruined it for everyone else.
—–
on the plays i noted above (lobs over VL after he came out to challenge a drive/jumper), he wasn’t the defensive player on the picker. he seemed to be on SD for most of the night, and philly wasn’t using him to set picks. sammy simply hung around the hoop, waiting for the inevitible opening.
—–
you’ll have to ask those in the on-line community who rip bosh why they do so…but i wonder…do those who rip him wonder how others always avoid criticizing him? or deflect his shortcomings or poor outings onto others?
Khandoor:
You read what you have already on your mind.
You listen just to what you would like to hear.
Unbelievable.
try to listen to JT. He is not blaming CB4 or AB, just the guys on the perimeter.
“I’m going to be your weatherman tomorrow on CTV @6pm!!!!!!!!!!” :Bosh’s tweet after his humiliation in Philly.
Any team that gives this nunya weakling with the biggest brace in the NBA on his knee a Max contract deserves to lose for as long as he’s there…
He is weak, passive, complacent and arrogant and knows that the worst that will probably happen to him is he takes a little less money to play with Wade but probably the nunya in Toronto will give him the full $130 mil and THEN he will demand a trade.
Any nunyatard who can’t see his obvious strength and stamina issues, his inability to hold his ground, run, jump and thinks that any of that is going to get better rather than worse is delusional. Bad knees on 6′10″ athletes don’t get better..they get worse…
….you don’t build your team around someone who can’t nunyaing deliver..unless you’re Toronto and you have a clusternunya for management and cretinous fanboys like khandor with serious mental issues.
HAHAHAHAHA awesome!
This is so much gold.
Our season has been over for awhile now…our conversations should turn to options:
I would like to take an informal pole,if you were running the show,who you would keep and build around?
A) Bosh
B) Bargs
C) Neither
Khandor,try to answer with an A or B,C
B.
not because VL is now, or ever will be, better, or even as good (overall) as bosh. it’s simply because i doubt the raps will be able to turn over the roster enough this offseason to actually improve the team to the point he’ll want to re-sign…and knowing that, they’re better off moving him & at least obtaining something in return. the added bonus is that they may be able to off-load krapono in a deal with bosh as well (i.e. ‘ok, we’ll deal bosh, but you have to take krapono as well.’). i’d suggest using banks instead, but i don’t want to be silly…’cause who’d take him off our hands now that zeke’s not around?
i’d be more than willing to deal bargs, but i don’t think doing so will net sufficient piece(s) to improve the team to the point that bosh would be interested in re-signing – and then you’ve lost both, with little-to-no net gain.
on another note, much of what they do this summer will depend on how they handle marion, joey & AP. if they hold onto their rights, the cap-hold figure (combined) is quite large, and will limit their ability to do much in free agency (outside of re-signing them). my gut says they’ll either hold all of ‘em, or renounce all of ‘em. renouncing is the only way to actually be a legit player in the trade market, since doing so would drop them below the cap, and they’d be able to make a camby-for-nothing type trade (i.e. just taking on salary without giving anything up but, say, a future pick). however, they better be sure they can sign a decent wing (delfino) on the cheap, draft wisely, and that the player they acquire in any trade is actually a difference-maker (and for a change, a positive difference-maker…no more acquring guys who make the team worse. that should be the first rule.).
if they can’t do the above, and decide to hold onto marion, joey & AP, then moving bosh (& parts?) for a legit wing (or big), a good prospect & a pick may be their best move.
C. Bosh is the better player and probably always will be but I don’t think the effort and money that appear necessary to keep him are wise investments.
Bargs’ ceiling as a player strikes me as high but there’s a real risk he falls far short of his ceiling and even if he hits it there will be some pretty glaring gaps in his game. He will never dominate the glass and that’s a problem.
And there’s no one else to build around on this roster. Only potentially complementary pieces. So I’d be figuring out what I could get for Jose too.
This may just be semantics, but I’m not sure you “build” around either of them (I think they can each be a piece of a good team though). I think you try to lock up Bargs in the medium-to-long-long term and then see what you can get for either/both of them on the open market…but my inclination is to trade Bosh, as he could bring back more and I believe he thinks he should be a max player, which would be cap-crippling…
I am reaonably excited for our cap flexibility and trade options this off season, but my excitment is tempered by BC’s recent moves/FA signings and the possibility the idiocy will continue…When you think that, if you combine his two biggest moves, he basically made this trade (going on memory, may have forgotten some pieces):
1. T.J. Ford;
2. Rasho;
3. Jamario Moon;
4. Roy Hibbert (the 17th pick we traded);
5. A first round pick; and
6. A second round pick.
For:
1. Marcus banks;
2. Nathan Jawai; and
2. $3,000,000
Yikes. 6 assets for one liability, one probable bust and some cash.
well, and marion.
Oops. That’s true; but he is a FA at the end of the season, so it was basically just a rental.
*fingers crossed*
Quick answer:C
Long answer: D. :) With the salary cap squeezing, I think R.O.Y. ( not Roy) is king. We have a lot of player that are paid much higher than what they produce.
I don’t want us to pay MAX for a player that is not MAX
I don’t want to pay 10 M for a JC that have a real value of 5
I don’t want AB , unless for a fair amount
I don’t want Marion at 10 Million.
And not to speak about JK and MB, or Hump…
cleaning the bad contract is the first condition to have a good team these days.
I don’t think any of those two are something to build around. They could be valuable pieces if there are other, possibly better pieces around them. On their own they won’t be doing much. At this point I’d say Bargnani, but if you had asked that question at the beginning of the year, I would’ve said Bosh. Yeah, I’m like that.
I think if Bargnani continues his improvement on offense he’s going to be something good. He’s more aggressive than Bosh, takes the game more seriously and doesn’t get flustered in clutch situations. I’d also say he has more mental strength than Bosh. The only knock on him is that his rebounding sucks ass (see Dalembert yesterday) and that he tends to stay on the perimeter a little too much, although he’s getting better at that.
Bosh – second biggest disappointment of this season after Jose. He’s just not into it, he seems too distracted by other shit that’s going on in his life. I mean how can any player with any pride be twittering shit after a loss like that. I’d put that Blackberry down and go to a secluded location to figure out what’s missing from my game. That post-game interview he did last night was sad, he didn’t care and just gave tin-canned responses. At least Marion spoke from his heart, Bosh complimented AP’s jacket.
careful…you don’t want to be questioning bosh ‘as a player, or as a person.’
I’m on the B team. I think Bosh has pretty much checked out on this particular iteration of the Toronto Raptors, and without a change from top to bottom, will (purposefully, perhaps?) never regain his form here. It sucks that this is how it has to be, but we made this bed of shit and now we’re sleeping in it.
Bargs is younger, and will be locked in for a while, so we can hopefully get some more young pieces, stick Calderon’s ass on the bench where it belongs and start again. Man, we need this so bad for so many reasons… and we’re not even talking championship right now…
I am also on the B team, but how much of a factor is what team Bosh would potentially be traded to?
Do people care if the Raps trade him to Miami or Cleveland, resulting in the Raps have to play againt a Bosh-Wade or Bosh-Lebron combo for the next 10 years?
Great post.
At least it feels like SOMEONE is watching the same game I’m watching.
It’s become clear to me that this team is so messed up that we can’t even properly evaluate Marion because NO ONE is really competing and EVERYONE is bad.
Some positivity (if it’s what we are lacking): the bargnani dunk in the 3rd came out of nowhere, and jose actually hit a couple shots that used to be automatic.
Also. Has anyone noticed the body language bosh projects to calderon after their piss poor defense? Not good.
Now I’m gonna say and going to stick with it 200% of the time, via some-of-what-Arsenalist-said:
Keep Bargnani, maybe Ukic, and the missing Calderon ….and BLOW THIS ENTIRE TEAM UP for 2010:
Bargnani is not the franchise player, but he will be the one who will lead just by example, and not by talking. Whoever we draft (Gawd Help us) and hire as a coach who has got a damn game plan and style, and loves to teach and discipline young players will be the new vocal leaders. The mind-set and chemistry is a mess, that is why this terribly flawed “win-now” plan is sucking balls now.
I’m sure Bosh is just looking at his team’s current record and mailing it in, and the entire league has got a 2 page scouting report on Bosh to counter the limited things he does.
Our 2010 1st round is lottery protected right? Do we have to give it to the Heat if we tank 2009 as well? Can anyone remind/clarify it to me?
it’s protected until 2014.
My Bad,should read keep around,as opposed to buid around.
d279,
—————————————
re: Our season has been over for awhile now…our conversations should turn to options:
I would like to take an informal pole,if you were running the show,who you would keep and build around?
A) Bosh
B) Bargs
C) Neither
Khandor,try to answer with an A or B,C
—————————————
As I’ve already said in another thread here:
I am someone who …
* Would’ve traded up to get Carmelo Anthony in the 2003 Draft
* Would’ve traded down to Dwyane Wade in the 2003 Draft
* Would not have picked Chris Bosh in the 2003 Draft
* Would have traded down to pick either Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy in the 2006 Draft
* Would not have picked Andrea Bargnani No.1 [overall] in the 2006 Draft
My answer to the question asked is “A” … assuming that CB4 is, in fact, still capable of regaining his full health, at just 24 years of age.
Chris Bosh, as an under-sized finesse Center, who can Rebound, Team Defend and play adequate Team Offense, at that spot, in this league [i.e. with the rules in place today], rather than Andrea Bargnani, as a good-sized perimeter scoring Center, who cannot Rebound, Team Defend and play adequate Team Offense, at that same spot, is a much better player to build a high end team around.
Khandor,I messed up should say keep as opposed to build around,and please no would of could of…..
you wouldn’t have taken wade at 4? i was hoping the raptors would take wade or tj ford that year.
Its disappointing to see the Raps mail it in over and over again. Judging by Marion’s frustration its safe to say any hope of him coming back next year is gone. He hasn’t been our saviour but some shrewed off season moves to sign Marion at a reasonable cost and bring in a few more roll players out of a group like Delfino, Barnes, Bass, Bogans, Rasho, Wilcox, even a guy like Kareem Rush for some instant offense and things may have been able to improve. Now its all about hoping for some lottery luck and seeing what we can get for Bosh before he darts south of the border. Its a sad state as a Raps fan. I may just buy a ticket to a late season game for the sole purpose of going with a paper bag on my head, to show this organization how far it has fallen.
Arsenalist,
* IMO, the type of answers that Shawn Marion gave in his interview last night were part of the reason he eventually fell out of favour in Phoenix & Miami.
* IMO, who Chris Bosh has gradually lost faith in this season … is Bryan Colangelo, as the Pres/GM of this team.
——————————————-
IMO, if CB4 does not resign with the Raptors, it will be because of that loss of faith in Bryan Colangelo.
On the other hand, if Bryan Colangelo chooses to trade CB4 before Bosh publicly acknowledges that he no longer wishes to be a Raptor beyond the date on his current contract … it will be because Bryan Colangelo knows/feels that Chris Bosh has lost faith in the ability of this team’s Pres/GM to ever build a championship team in Toronto, and he [Colangelo] will then have no choice in the matter but to move Bosh to another team, either in a straight-up trade or with a sign & trade agreement.
Can we find a way to bring in Mo Cheeks? Its clear his demise in Philly was premature as it was trying to incorporate Brand into the team, and not the coaching, that effected the play of the 76ers.
d279,
A.
Willing to bet a huge sum of $$$$ that the most frequent answer to the informal poll will, in fact, be B.
An example of the 20/80 Principle at work, yet again, amongst the Raptors’ on-line fanbase.
Khandor what does paretos law have to do with choosing fuckin a,b,or c
‘Willing to bet a huge sum of $$$$ that the most frequent answer to the informal poll will, in fact, be B.’
if that’s the case, then is it not reasonable to conclude that one of the primary reasons is because most feel bosh isn’t going to re-sign anyway, so why not deal him & get something as opposed to waiting out the inevitible? it is for me. i highly doubt anyone choosing B would do so because they truly feel bargs is now, or will be, a ‘better’ player than bosh, but the reality of the situation dictates that it may be better for the long-term viability of the franchise to cut ties w/ bosh & begin the rebuild. he’d at least bring back quality, even if they only get 80 cents on the dollar for him.
much like bosh, i don’t see VL as ‘the’ guy around whom a team is built; rather, with the right pieces around him (i.e. legit, NBA-quality 2s & 3s), i think he could develop into a steady contributor on a good-very good NBA team. those ‘right pieces’ are easier to obtain when your dangling bosh as trade-bait, no? conversely, since bosh needs help as well, what options do they have for obtaining help that will provide a short-term fix? not many.
if the choice is A, then don’t they have to be hell-bent on fixing this debacle quickly, over this off-season, otherwise they risk losing him? and how quickly have teams, in the past, been able to re-tool over one off-season with just minor FA signings & a mid-level lottery pick?
I’d like to see a team that doesn’t build around one player but instead focuses on being a deep, share-the-load type of team. Detroit of the last few years comes to mind. For that reason I would say keep Bargnani, because I think he would work better as a key part in a deep rotation. I think Bosh demands the ball too much and lacks any skill beyond getting his own points. Bargnani is less of a black hole and so I think would work better with a deep team. Guys like Delfino are the players I would like to see again, he can pass, rebound, play defense, and score. I don’t know who the free agents are or the draftees that play like that, but the Raps should try and get players at each position that can do multiple things. None of this three point specialist crap, or other similar bullshit.
Jord,
FYI … 2009-2010 NBA Free Agents.
Are you sure that Andrea Bargnani is less of a Black Hole, as a Center, on offense, than Chris Bosh is?
Khandor, the Pareto Principle is gobledygook. I clicked on the link and read one of the more meaningless observations I’ve ever read (and I’ve got a political philosophy degree so I’ve read a lot of mumbojumbo). The 20/80 principle is a lazy attempt to structure the world in an organized way so we can make rules and laws and not do the hard work of figuring out Truth.
… if so,
Which one do you believe is more of a Black Hole on Defense? and, In terms of Rebounding? [as a Center]
Nah, I’m not sure about Bosh and Bargnani. But Bosh never seems to make a nice pass while I’ve seen Bargnani thread the needle a couple of times. I just think Bargnani demands the ball less and thus fits in better with a team offense than Bosh.
Thanks for the list of Free Agents.
Khandor, at defense both Bosh and Bargnani suck. But I noticed in the roll call that you broke down the positive lineups and the negative lineups. Bargnani, when paired with Pops (a high energy guy, good rebounded) was a plus. But when he was paired with Bosh (another finesse guy) he was a minus. I just think that if Bargnani was paired with a good rebounding defensive PF or C (but one that is high energy, unlike JO) the team might work better. But that might be true of Bosh as well (if he too is paired with a high energy rebounder). Really, I’d like to see Bosh work more on his defense and rebounding than his three-point shot. Then he might better compliment Bargnani.
Since it is Bosh’s team, shouldn’t Barg’s be trying to compliment him?
Jord,
————————————–
re: Khandor, the Pareto Principle is gobledygook. I clicked on the link and read one of the more meaningless observations I’ve ever read (and I’ve got a political philosophy degree so I’ve read a lot of mumbojumbo). The 20/80 principle is a lazy attempt to structure the world in an organized way so we can make rules and laws and not do the hard work of figuring out Truth. – by Jord
————————————–
Accepted … although, others might also say that it’s The [supposed] Truth which is the real the gobledygook, in a specific situation, as it does not seem as though there is but one, single version of Tha Truth, in the world today, except, of course for THIS one.
I never said “The Truth”, I specifically wrote Truth, of which there is plenty but it requires diligence and hard work (generally) to figure it out. I should have seen the Paul Pierce reference coming…nice one.
Jord,
re: the list
You’re welcome.
—————–
re: who demands the ball more on offense
I think Bosh is GIVEN the ball more on offense … which is not the same thing as “demanding” it.
If the ball was given to Bosh less on this team, it would be a productive thing, overall, IMO.
—————–
re: Bosh’s passing out of the Low & Mid Post areas
IMO, it’s better than many realize … as evidenced by the nice pass he made last night to a cutter [Bargnani?] for a layup.
======================================
re: Khandor, at defense both Bosh and Bargnani suck. But I noticed in the roll call that you broke down the positive lineups and the negative lineups. Bargnani, when paired with Pops (a high energy guy, good rebounded) was a plus. But when he was paired with Bosh (another finesse guy) he was a minus. I just think that if Bargnani was paired with a good rebounding defensive PF or C (but one that is high energy, unlike JO) the team might work better. But that might be true of Bosh as well (if he too is paired with a high energy rebounder). Really, I’d like to see Bosh work more on his defense and rebounding than his three-point shot. Then he might better compliment Bargnani. Jord
======================================
Contrary to popular perception … Bosh’s Team Defense doesn’t suck, when he’s healthy and able to play the #5/C spot.
On the other hand, Bargnani’s Team Defense does suck, in the same situation.
Right now, and going forward with this team … is the fact that the major problem occurs defensively whenever they are on the floor together, which invariably sees Bosh being asked to check the opponent’s #4/PF spot, which he is incapable of doing … especially with a bad wheel.
Both would would benefit from playing with a different sort of post partner.
Khandor said:_________________________________________________________
Contrary to popular perception … Bosh’s Team Defense doesn’t suck, when he’s healthy and able to play the #5/C spot.
On the other hand, Bargnani’s Team Defense does suck, in the same situation.
Right now, and going forward with this team … is the fact that the major problem occurs defensively whenever they are on the floor together, which invariably sees Bosh being asked to check the opponent’s #4/PF spot, which he is incapable of doing … especially with a bad wheel.
Both would would benefit from playing with a different sort of post partner.
____________________________________________________________________
One thing to note here: Bargnani isnt a great team defender, but he is, right now, a good individual defender. This is his second year of playing significant minutes, white washing last year, and team defense is not the same in the NBA as it is in Europe. He has shown that he is a smart player, and that he cares, and he has improved defensively every year.
Further, his effort is generally good.
I factor that into any discussion of Bargnani’s value to the Raptors, and as a Raptor.
I do not believe Chris Bosh is resigning her in Toronto, and thus, I believe building with Bargnani, a legitimate 7 footer who can block shots, cares about his craft, and I believe is one of the few clutch players on this team seems a given to me.
Lets look at Bargnani’s upside. He draws fouls and shoots free throws due to vicious upfakes that are only getting better, and drives that almost no center in the NBA has any answer for. He takes the opposing 5 out to the 3 point line, or, he takes a smaller player inside and punishes him. His rebounding has been going up, and he has been boxing out more and more frequently. He’s even gotten some Offensive boards in the last few games, despite hanging out near the 3 point line most of the time. He aggressively attacks mismatches, where Bosh doesnt even seem to notice mismatches, which speaks to either IQ, or heart. His individual defense year 1 and 2 was atrocious, and this year its average to above average, he even gets blocks contesting jump shots. In fact, on this team, he might be the only guy that actually contests a jump shot at all.
Lets look at Bargnani’s downside. He forgets to box out, he is not a great team defender, and sometimes looks completely lost. He doesnt rebound as well as he should. He doesn’t score inside/post up enough. He commits too many charges, and turns the ball over getting stripped too much. He breaks his man down off the dribble often, but rarely hits the cutter(there is no cutters in Toronto) or the open man. He doesn’t look to pass, but like I said in my previous post a couple days back, thats because Calderon has fostered a sense of selfishness as there is no ball movement.
I think the positives are VERY positive, and I think the negatives are coachable. In fact, I think he’s clearly working on the negatives already, and is improving in most of those areas as we speak. I think he wants to be a superstar.
Bosh is leaving. I’d be happy to see great pieces around Bargnani.
Wrong again. Bargnani is already a better offensive player than Bosh and getting better all the time even though he’s on Bosh’s Team and getting looked over all the time in favour of Bosh and others even when they’re terrible. Bargs will get better and better and has way more heart than Bosh and is not afraid to make decisions like Bosh. Bargs can and will be a way better clutch performer. Bosh has had his chance and never ever ever won us a big game. On defense Bargs is improving and has room to improve especially pulling down more boards which will happen when Bosh isn’t there trying to pad his stats. That said Bargs is already a way better defender than Bosh and still learning, and comes ready to defend every night, unlike Bosh who sticks his hands up and gets virtually no fouls because he’s a pussy. Therefore get rid of Bosh in the off season and blow this team up!! Keep Bargnani for sure and everyone else is trade bait.
yertu,
No short term fix is necessary at all. That’s been one of the problems with the Raptors for a long time now … which SHOULD have corrected when Colangelo was brought on board … but, apparently, still remains.
If in doubt, see the constant roster turnover since Feb/2006.
If the Raptors offer Bosh a max contract and he signs, no problem. He pans out or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t they can trade him later for another set of assets. The fact is, others around the league THINK highly of Mr. Bosh. Please recall Mr. Colangelo saying that, “Others wouldn’t believe the type of packages that are being offerred to us for Chris Bosh”, prior to the Trade Deadline this season, after the SAS story hit the air-waves. If he chooses to walk-away from the Raptors, then, they can use that freed-up money instead to go in a different direction with the team, at that point, whatever that might be, short and long term.
There is nothing to be lost by holding onto a solid character player like Chris Bosh.
If he walks-away other players around the league will not have formed the impression that the Raptors are an organization that devours its own best players, and simply trades them away rather than re-signing them for a Max Contract. What good, young multi-talented super-star-potential player would then ever be interested in playing long term for the Toronto Raptors under those conditions?
What they SHOULD have done is … exactly what I said elsewhere [you know where!] already … STAYED THE COURSE this season, with Jermaine O’Neal – as distasteful as that might have been – and Jamario Moon, and then re-evaluate this next off season what to do moving forward with players like Will Solomon, Jason Kapono, Joey Graham, Kris Humphries, Roko Ukic, Nathan Jawai, Carlos Delfino, Anthony Parker, and Andrea Bargnani … while adding a 1st Round Draft Pick in June.
Instead of that, however … all they did is make things worse, one season sooner, by exchanging J-O’Neal [$23 M/yr coming off for 2010] & J-Moon [highly cost-effective right now] for Mr. Marion [$17.0 M/yr, expires this summer] & Mr. Banks [$4.5 M/yr, beyond 2010 ... ouch!] … which has left their team still thin on the Wings and also in the Post [given the injury to Kris Humphries].
Given those errors …
IMO, what the Raptors need to do going forward from here is hold onto Chris Bosh … until such time that he tells them that he no longer wants to be here, if that happens down-the-road at all.
Bosh isn’t worth the money he makes now or next year let alone a max contract. Max contracts are for game changers that carry their teams to victory something Botch will never do…He just doesn’t have that much talent. Also he showed us another thing that is a big negative to him this year to go with his ok talent, he has no brains which is the most dangerous thing…calling himself out for MVP when he is clearly not even in the same hemisphere as an MVP, and then continuing to shoot three’s like a complete idiot. He is now stupid enough to believe he’s a great star and everything is everyone else’s fault instead of carrying the burden he deserves for not leading his team to the promised land.
At this point, I’m thinking that not even max money would get Bosh to stay. How do you suggest we “hold onto him” if this happens? We have no chips left, and our hand is played out.
Raps Fan,
If I’d offerred Pat Riley the #4 pick in the 2003 NBA Draft, in exchange for his #5, plus another player and/or a 2nd pick, with the proviso that he NOT choose D-Wade with the selection he was getting from me, and he’d have said, “No, thank you” … then, Yes, by all means, I would have IN FACT chosen Dwyane Wade in the No. 4 slot [overall], if I was the Raptors’ GM at that time.
[if that wasn't clear before ... thanks for pointing that out]
I would just like to thank you and everyone that contributes to this site for continuing to write honest and insightful articles about this team even though there’s little left to be hopeful for. You guys have shown more dedication to this team than most of the roster. For myself and every Raptor fan that will continue to be a Raptor no matter how bad things get, thank you and your unwaivering support of this team (not neccassarily the players, coaches, staff, managers or owners, but the team if you get my meaning) and it’s fans is greatly appreciated. Again, Thank you!
d279,
—————————————
re: Khandor what does paretos law have to do with choosing fuckin a,b,or c – by d279
—————————————
Not much, perhaps … other than indicating any position which is held by as much as 80% of a majority need not necessarily signify anything of substantive value which is also not contained, by-chance, in the opposite minority viewpoint, to the extent of as little as 0.2.
Simply being consistent with a majority opinion does not necessarily make something/someone the barer of Truth [as Jord might want to say, I think].
juror #8.
Khandor,
would it be safe to say if you want to to use paretos law 20/80
20% of our players will be making 80% of our payroll…= max player!!
d279,
—————————————
re: Khandor,
would it be safe to say if you want to to use paretos law 20/80
20% of our players will be making 80% of our payroll…= max player!!
—————————————
Now you’re catching on! : )
[although calculus was never my strong suit as a mathematician]
yertu,
————————————–
re: juror #8.
————————————–
That’s it, in a nutshell, my friend.
Now, you’re catchin on, too.
Thinking back to … Good Times … to be sure! : )
i really don’t expect anything from the raptors at this point, but seriously that second quarter was pathetic even by their standards.
our perimeter defense is atrocious, and for as poor defensively as we are inside it makes our bigs look even worse for consistently having to over rotate to cover for the pylons we set up around the arch. and at this rate we’re not gonna have first round picks for the next 5 years if we want to unload calderon, kapono and their collective 14 million a season (*speechless).
i really hope that we dont resign marion, he’s graham, minus a jump shot, with slightly more athleticism and a better head for the game, thats it. and he’s just taking time away from graham’s “development” whatever that may be, although graham’s showing more flashes and looks like hes starting to get it, and i’d rather suffer through his brain cramps then marion’s dis-interest.
trade bosh for a legit 2 guard next year, pray somebody will take calderon and try and get another pg in here who can run and defend, maybe felton, or try and sign crawford if he opts out of golden state.
start bargs at 5, pops at 4, graham at 3 or whatever you get from the draft, dealing bosh and calderon, and free agency to fill out the rest of the starting 5.
THIS IS REEEAAAALLLLLY STARTING TO GET SICKENING. if im triano, i dont care if your bosh or voskhul, if you arent showing the effort you’re riding the bench for anybody that decides they have some heart and hussle. and if they get embarrassed, good maybe they’ll do something about it the next time they’re on the floor. i would rather watch a d-league caliber team fighting on every offensive and defensive possession getting over matched skill wise then an nba team with the skill needed to compete and not giving a shit and getting blown out game in and game out.
I’ve stated before that getting Jamal Crawford is like getting Marcus Banks. Its expensive, and ridiculous.
The guy shoots %40 and has never met a shot he wouldnt take, at any point. Its like Jamario Moon without a conscience.
crawford can go off for 50 AND create his own shot, name one current raptor that can?
If I take 110 shots, I too can score 50.
he’s shooting 41%, bosh @ 49% bargs @ 44% parker @ 43%. your “black hole” is missing 4 more shots out of a hundred then parker.
considering what is available, unproven youngs and breaking down vets, crawford is a decent option at 10 million. christ kapono is making 6 million, i have no problem saying crawford is twice the player kapono is, do u?
he has a swagger that we sorely lack, he can break down defenses, has good height, a good handle, LIKES TO RUN, and can pass. he brings to the table everything we are kinda lacking. aaaannnnd hes playing in golden state with little shooting restraint and the knicks before that with very much the same long leash. and i would give him the green light for us too.
and all joking aside, based on what teams might be willing to give up versus what we have/are willing to offer, i would like to hear your suggestions instead. would you trade bosh for an unproven young? would you throw cash at a broken down t-mac? would you stand pat with parker? im just curious. delfino isnt the answer, nor is parker.
Seeten,
Good job, on your part, IMO, even though I don’t happen to agree with all of your individual interpretations. What you wrote and how you wrote it is first-rate.
Slight word of caution though. Just because Bargnani’s BSPG are increasing do not make the mistake of thinking that his individual defense fits properly into the “adequate” category just yet. IMO, the only players in this league he can check effectively right now are power-based #5/C’s … and there just are very many of those beast in the NBA any more.
Has he gotten better? Yes, he has.
Does he still foul? Or whiff completely, on occasion [too much]? Yes, he does.
Thought you did a good job outlining both the positives and the negatives, from your perspective. It’s a style that goes over well on fan sites, in general.
Look forward to reading more from you … along the lines of what Dave regularly brings to the table here. : )
Khandor wrote:_________________________________________________________
Just because Bargnani’s BSPG are increasing do not make the mistake of thinking that his individual defense fits properly into the “adequate” category just yet.
_______________________________________________________________________
I didn’t factor the blocks into the analysis of his individual defense at all. His blocks arise out of instinct, more than anything else. The individual defense I am talking about is his footwork, if you watch when someone faces him, he has his hands up, and active, and his feet moving. He does a pretty good job of keeping people that aren’t small forwards or guards in front of him, and lets be real, nobody is expecting him to keep Lou Williams, or Allen Iverson or Deron Williams in front of him.
He does a very good job with his body getting into power centers, and keeping them out of their comfort zone, and he’s still only 23 and has thickening out to do, I think he’s gonna be even better in the coming years against them, and as mentioned above, his footwork and hands suggest he also “gets it” for playing individual defense. I think he’s gonna be rough on centers in the mold of Antonio Davis/Sam Dalembert in the future, even if he still has some trouble with them today.
On the topic of the blocks, he has significant amounts of them against 3’s and 2’s contesting jumpers, which shows his long arms(A definite plus) and willingness to get out and get his hands up, and his exceptional coordination.
He does not play good team defense, but I have high hopes that he will learn to do so. Part of it is that the team doesn’t do what its supposed to do, so if you are expecting Bosh to zig, for example, and he zags, you need to be able to adjust to whatever silly thing the Raptors have done this time. Often, someone does something ridiculous, like Anthony Parker leaving Ray Allen alone for a 3, to sag onto Leon Powe, for example, and suddenly Andrea looks lost. To be honest, at that moment, I look lost, and horrified, also. I think as he fully realizes what is supposed to be done, and commits that to muscle memory, he’ll be able to adjust to blown plays, as he has shown a high degree of intelligence in the other aspects of the game he’s grasped.
I’m not ready to crown him All-Defensive Third team, or anything, but I think this year he’s hit average to slightly above average as an individual defender, and I don’t think we’ve seen his ceiling defensively, at all.
I also think he is starting to garner respect from refs, and many of the fouls he’s picked up, and travels, were of the “He cant actually do that, it must have been a foul/travel” variety, and now he’s starting to get respect, and calls. Not always, but much more than he did earlier this season.
I gave up on the season an awful long time ago, and have generally been watching Andrea Bargnani, sort of like the Thunder fans did with Durant, so I’ve paid a great deal of attention to why he hasn’t been getting the ball in situations, where he has had some of his issues, and if he’s been working through them, etc. Its much more interesting than watching the Raptors act as though they have no idea how to play team defense, or pass the ball.
sorry … should read as,
“and there just aren’t very many of those beasts … “
Seeten,
——————————–
re: I didn’t factor the blocks into the analysis of his individual defense at all. His blocks arise out of instinct, more than anything else. The individual defense I am talking about is his footwork, if you watch when someone faces him, he has his hands up, and active, and his feet moving. He does a pretty good job of keeping people that aren’t small forwards or guards in front of him, and lets be real, nobody is expecting him to keep Lou Williams, or Allen Iverson or Deron Williams in front of him.
——————————–
This is where I have to disagree. Thoroughly understanding how “vs Picks” defense works in the NBA necessitates that he MUST improve dramatically in this regard, if he’s going to be able to succeed as a Main-frame #5/C, in this league, given the fact that he is NOT [yet?] a power-based Warrior like the [old school?] Shaqtus was in his heyday.
Men like Tim Duncan and even a less-than-stellar #5/C like Kendrick Perkin excell at keeping guards and forwards in front of them, in Pick situations, which contributes mightily to the overall success their teams have on the defensive end of the floor.
What Deron Williams did to Bargnani in the final 1:35 of Sunday’s game simply CANNOT continue to happen if he’s going to play at crunch-time for a high end team in this league.
U DUMB FUCK.Bargnani is one of the best one-on-one defenders this team has. In fact, in the Utah game Jay Triano made Bargnani defend Deron Williams for a few possessions because nobody else on the team could. Jay even admitted as much in his post game interview. Think about that a 7′ dude guarding the opposition PG who is arguably one of the best PGs in the game. Bargnani is a superior defender to Bosh, without a shade of doubt. He is also one of the only players on this team that shows up.
Well I’ve looked at the list for agents that was linked above and can honestly say I would rather watch a team of:
C – Chris Andersen
PF – Anderson Varejao
SF – Ron Artest
SG – Matt Barnes
PG – Bobby Jackson
than this crap I am watching right now… at least these guys would put some damn effort into the playing the game. I don’t mind losing but lack of effort is unforgivable IMO.
even my less than Basketball educated wife asked me last night, “Why are the Raptors always losing when I see you watching them” that almost brought a tear to my eye as I remembered the years of Antonio Davis, Oakley and JYD. Dammit get mad and show some pride in your livelyhood.
PS Love the site, never discovered it until you became a true hoop affiliate, keep up the good work.
Creebrave,
————————————–
re: a line-up like this
C – Chris Andersen
PF – Anderson Varejao
SF – Ron Artest
SG – Matt Barnes
PG – Bobby Jackson
————————————–
IMO … and despite what you might say right now … you and scores of other Raptors fans would quickly grow tired of watching a team with those 5 players included as central characters, and ZERO hope for future advancement up the league standings.
Khandor,
I understand where you are coming from in regards to long term/being serious about the future Raptors and by no means was I seriously giving consideration to signing these guys as next years Raptors. The point I was trying to make is the effort given by your (as a fan) team, be it the Raptors, Warriors, Thunder, etc… is alot of what the fans like to see. Effort shows a willingness to improve and work on your weaknesses not just play how you did the previous game and hope it works this time.
To see these multi-millionaires go through the motions while we the fans are paying to see/support them is frustrating to say the least. I watched the game last night and was thoroughly disgusted by the effort. Maybe I am just jaded from this years results and what I’ve seen on the court from the Raptors, but how many teams throughout the league do you see giving this kind of crap effort 9 games out of 10. I am one of the lucky viewers not in Toronto that gets TSN2 and has watched about 90% of the games this year, and after a majority of the games I ask myself “Why the hell am I watching these guys and cheering for them if they don’t care themselves?” That is sad in itself that a fan of the team should even feel that way.
hmmm maybe “lucky viewer” wasn’t the proper term to use given the state of the Raptors this year… I believe that I should be deserving even more sympathy than most for sitting through some of the stinkers that were only shown on TSN2
You and I both.
just wanted to add to the kudos…you had a couple really well thought-out posts above. i guess the general point, at least with respect to VL’s D, is that he has shown significant strides this season; it’s at least comforting to know that he has the ability to improve & become more well-rounded. once it clicks in his head that he needs to maintain a certain level of intensity & aggression, especially while defending & rebounding, his game could well reach another level.
I posted a huge response to the pick n roll = keep pg in front of you last night also. Looks like the interwebs ate it.
Essentially I said I was referring to being switched onto Deron, not defending penetration at the elbow on a pnr.
Yertu said: _____________________________________________________________
once it clicks in his head that he needs to maintain a certain level of intensity & aggression, especially while defending & rebounding, his game could well reach another level.
_________________________________________________________________________
This is very often the case. See Bosh, Chris for more evidence.
2 Trackbacks
[...] spared eye sores for many a game. I still curse Rogers and TSN2, but it is followed with a shrug. Misery continued in Philly on Wednesday for the Raptors, but you know what, she likes company, and her name is Detroit. The [...]
Misery continues in Philly – Raptors Republic…
They say that the first stage of any torture procedure is the worst because once you become used to the initial pain, whatever follows becomes easier to handle. That’s exactly how I feel about the Raptors…
Switch to regular comments