With all due respect to some of my friends and colleagues here at the Republic: The Raptors easily win the Marion deal and now find themselves only a couple dollars away from being REBUILT.
Now, I’d love to suggest that more deals are coming and that Nash and Amare are just around the corner, but I think Colangelo may be done. In fact, he should be. Bryan, if you can hear me (and I know you read my posts religiously) stop now while you’re ahead (unless of course you can get a veteran big like Joe Smith for nothing). Now, I know, that I have written 8 months of posts hammering you to make more moves, but this time, I think, that you may have actually got it right – and all that stands between you and the second round of the playoffs is money…so spend it wisely!
Marion, even if he is half the player he was in Phoenix (which is kind of like what he was in Miami) he will improve this team ten fold. Everyone has already hammered out the positives and negatives of this trade but here is all you really need to know:
- O’Neal was a good player but wasn’t helping this team win.
- Without touching your starting rotation you were able to turn a backup center into a starting SF and a backup PG, thus filling the two biggest holes in this team’s line up.
- If Banks can give this team 10 minutes a night of turnover free ball (and if Roko can do the same) Jose can go back to playing 30 strong minutes a night.
- This team now sports a legitimate NBA starting line up of Calderon, Parker, Marion, Bosh and Bargnani. Respectable in all regards.
- With Kapono back to occupying the sixth man role he plays well, Graham as the seventh man, and Roko and Banks sharing the backup guard duties, this team can be happy with guys like Humphries and Voskuhl as its reserve bigs.
- While I’m not the biggest fan of Delfino, if you sign him to a reasonable contract with some of the cash we’ve saved the bench is all of a sudden not so thin. Remember, he’s barely getting paid in Russia and we hold his rights.
Here is where the money thing comes into play. Pick your year, 2009 or 2010, either way the Raptors are now a legitimate NBA coach away from making a run in the East.
2009 – Game plan
- Fire Triano today and spend the 3 million you got in the Miami deal to bring in (in order of personal preference) Hubie Brown, Eddie Jordan, Jeff Van Gundy, Avery Johnson or Flip Saunders. Not only does the 6th to 8th spot become a realistic target for this team, but a first round upset against one of the East’s big 3 is also possible (before you call me out on this note that it’ll be the topic of my next article).
2010 – Game plan
- Wait until the offseason, bring in one of the big coaches.
- Resign all your own guys (including Marion and Delfino).
- Sign David Lee to an offer sheet (since he is a restricted FA and the Knicks don’t want to spend any cash before 2010) for the 10 million of cap space you will have and hope the Knicks don’t match.
- Sign a serviceable veteran like Joe Smith to the MLE.
- Buy a draft pick and package it with your own lottery pick to move up in this year’s draft and get your hands on a guy like Jennings or Rubio.
- …and BAM! You are back and ready to go.
As always, standing in the key, I’m the Dr. I’ve got my feet planted, and I’m planning on taking a charge!
phdsteve
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104 Raps
Yea the trade is done so no point wondering what could else could have been done now, however getting ris of soloman and voshkhul is necessary
and if we can trade kapono be great because I see Joey as a better 6th man
What? We will see my friend.
backup center??
Yes to Bargs, as he should have been all year, the mans starting time is up. He is a back up big at this point in his career.
Point is, he wasn’t while he was here. He came off the bench in only a few games and, even then, that was chalked up to him coming off his injury.
“Fire Triano today and spend the 3 million you got in the Miami deal to bring in (in order of personal preference) Hubie Brown, Eddie Jordan, Jeff Van Gundy, Avery Johnson or Flip Saunders. Not only does the 6th to 8th spot become a realistic target for this team, but a first round upset against one of the East’s big 3 is also possible”
IDIOT!
Because of retarded shit like this you shouldn’t be writing for this site!
ok z, I get it…you think Im an idiot- but why? Your response lacks in both critcism and an alternative opinion. Tell what you think and tell me why you think my ideas are so “retarded.”
i back muh mans optimism!
i never thought id see the day i agree with steve but for the most part he makes sense.check out the gems we have available to us whether or not matrix re ups or he flops and walks…..ben gordon,varejao,kleiza,chris anderson,RON ARTEST,marquis daniels,rasho,ariza,odom,david lee,hedo,bogans,MATT BARNS,ronnie price…..bc did what he had to do and if joey and ap dont reup for cheap they can walk for all i care.soloman and jake are as good as gone……….this will be a very different team come next season and bc just made the rest of this disastrous season interesting.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-09-10
Andiamo,
can we be friends now? I’ll even buy the first round!
You can buy your way through the first round?? GET MLSE ON THE PHONE NOW!
This post isn’t as crazy as it first appears to be but it’s hoping a few things come true:
1) Marion becomes a mainstay with the Raptors.
2) Marcus Banks becomes a serviceable backup.
3) Colangelo is able to sign an appropriate player to the MLE.
4) We have a good draft to get some youth and develop it in the background.
Only time will tell whether we’re able to execute this mostly logical roadmap but given Colangelo’s record of FA signings in Toronto, I can’t help but be a little pessimistic.
agreed- what happens next will determine how good this move ends up being- but we are in a better spot today than we were 48 hours ago- and all that really stands in the way of some real improvement is a little bit of $$$.
Maybe BC is expecting the next few years to be even weaker drafts, thus making the loss of our pick(s?) to Miami not such a big deal. One can only hope this pans out.
Our pick that we sent to Miami is protected until 2015. So if something goes horribly wrong, and by that I mean a certain somone leaving town in a few years, we can still have our first round pick, and try to re-build….but lets hope that it doesnt come to that!
Will you guys make up your mind please. This website is confusing the hell out of me.. First they say it’s a bad trade now we say it’s a good one…
Each writer has his own take. There’s never consensus here, that would suck.
I agree.
Arsenalist,
I think it would be great if you could write one article with opinions from all the writers here at Raptors Republic on the trade.
Say — (1) A yes/no call on whether it’s a good trade or not (2) A paragraph on why they do like or do not like the trade (3) For those who have already written a full article on the deal (like yourself), a link to their article so people can check out their thoughts in full on the deal.
I think it would be great to have all those differing thoughts alongside one another in one place.
Agreed. One of the ideas I floated out there at the start of this site was to do that after each game. All the writers here have such a wide range of opinion on the apples and oranges of Raptors ball that I think it would lead to a healthy discussion from readers (one would hope).
Of course, real life usually gets in the way of solid ideas.
Really, do we really need to go there? I already wrote the longest article on this saying how I felt about it. Raps Fan wrote one too and he hates it but then again he hates everything Colangelo. phdsteve likes it and I’m guessing AltRaps chose the TBD option in the poll. That leaves Dinosty, when he recovers from his cocaine bender I’ll ask him to muster up a post.
actually, I voted no twice.
I don’t know about David Lee, I would rather throw 8 million at someone like Ben Gordon. As well this summer we should look at people like Brandon Bass, Matt Barnes, Desmond Mason, and try to get one of them. I say forget about Anthony Parker, unless he’s dirt cheap.
I just threw up a little. Ben Gordon? You’re kidding right?
Remember at the start of the season when Smitch described our lack of rebounding ability as being a product of the constant switching we were doing on defense (in order to take advantage of our quick bigs)? It would often leave Calderon or Parker under the boards against a bigger, stronger player, or they’d drift back out to the perimiter leaving Bosh alone down low to handle two or more. Well, Jose aside, how much of a nightmare for opposing teams would it be to have a lineup of AP at the point, Joey at the 2, Marion, Bosh and Bargs out on the court switching every pick and roll? Potentially scary stuff (and here I emphasize potentially). And to me that’s Marion’s biggest asset, his ability to check a variety of players effectively off of switches, which will be very very welcome.
I have no idea why we don’t utilize the switch more. At some point, we have to start blaming the players personally. First it was Mitchell as a lousy coach, even though he, Bosh, MoPete, etc would come out and say that they work on stuff in practice and, for “whatever reason” it just doesn’t get done in the game. Now we have Triano, who one would ASSume is a good coach, and they still aren’t doing it. Has to be frustrating.
Seems to me that they’ve never really had a defensive scheme that best utilizes the personnel. I’m not saying I really have any idea how exactly they could have accomplished that with the roster as it was pre-trade (if at all), but regardless of how the disadvantage manifested itself under both Triano and Mitchel’s defenses the team continues to be poor at preventing opposing teams from scoring on them in the paint. Under Mitchel it was off of offensive rebounds and second chance points due to the switch and under Triano it’s off of dribble penetration and late clock defensive breakdowns, but either way it’s been in the paint.
O’Neal couldn’t fix either of the problems in those two schemes because in the first he’d be the guy caught on the switch out high and in the second, well, he’s just not as good as advertised. Sure he blocks shots, takes charges, etc., but he also gets into foul trouble despite playing 30 minutes a game. The positives he’s shown have typically come from volume; he gets a lot of chances to make plays because opponents get into the lane at will. Let’s be honest, for every one of his blocks another 2-3 layups went in per game – there’s only so much the guy can do when you’re playing a lot of minutes with Jason Kapono, Jamario Moon, Jose Calderon, Will Solomon, etc.
The irony is that Marion might be best used under Mitchel’s switching scheme, where his rebounding and quickness would best be used on the switch.
If the point guard and small forward are pumpfaked or blown by so easily, then defense does not exist.
Agreed somewhat, tonious, but that was one of the virtues of getting that guy from Indiana. If Bibby made Jose look like a wet mop, he’d be there to welcome the bugger. Now, if he leaves his own man, someone has to rotate, which is neither rocket science or too hard to teach. Baffling that it seems like it is, though…and for years.
Some pople would take Ben Gordon over David Lee? really? Lee is a VERY underrated player, and I think he would flourish with the Raps. I agree with almost everything, and you just made me feet a bit better about this trade haha…I really hope he brings back delfino, and this season would be nice. With Hump out I am a bit worried about that bigs, but Marion addresses the imediate need of rebounding and athleticism at the 3. If Colangelo gets rid of Triano (which I dont want to see) he better wait until the off season for that, and I think he will. And AP better be re-signed, and I dont think he will be looking for big money, but he is a solid, consitant player, one of my favorite Raps. BC is making the push to make TO and legit team and keeping Bosh here for many more years. Oh and about Solomon, I am NOT a fan at all, but there is no other team out there that will want him, and he is only signed to a 1 year, so he will be done after the season…Oh I almost forgot…trading Jason Kapono? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? lol…wow.
You realize we have Chris Bosh on our team, and while having David Lee wouldn’t be bad, what we do need on this team is a guard that can create his own shot…hence Ben Gordon. We won’t have enough money to go after both players this summer. J. Kap is a one trick pony, we could use his 5+mill a season more wisely.
We should trade Kapono for an expiring contract and a draft pick.
Im sure BC would if he could but with so many teams losing money- Im not sure you could even get an expiring for him.
phdsteve,
The Raptors only have the $10mil of cap space if they do not sign Marion, Parker, Graham, Delfino and whoever else is a free agent this summer. If they re-sign those players then they have no cap space, and instead have their MLE to play with.
Also, a team either has their cap space or the MLE, but not both. For example, if the Raptors choose to use their cap space and spend their $10mil, they then do not have their MLE to spend. The MLE, and LLE, are exceptions given to teams over the cap. The Raptors wouldn’t be able to spend the MLE until the following summer.
Was going to say the same thing. You beat me to it.
But I think it’s important to say that anyone writing articles on this site should have a good, if not strong, grasp of the cap before they start telling an NBA GM what to do.
sorry guys- I wasnt clear about this- and both your points are right on.
The point was suggesting more that guys like Joe Smith should be readily available for well under the MLE, which is usually in the 5-6 mil category- and therefore grabbing a vet with some size shouldnt be too difficult this summer- even if you had no cap space and had to rely on the MLE.
but fyi- most GMs dont even have a strong grasp of how the cap actually works. Most teams actually hire a guy whos only job is to manage the cap.
Hence the job title capoligist.
Wish I had that as a business card.
Or capologist. That would have been an embarrassing business card… but one that suggest I knew more about numbers than spelling.
I think the draft will determine who BS goes after with his MLE. If we draft a wing, he’ll go after a big. If we draft a big, he’ll go after a wing.
If we draft a big (maybe a real defender/shot blocker like Thabeet), I’d love to see BC go after Childress. I have a feeling all those empty seats are going to put Atlanta in a bind this summer when they have to resign both Childress and WIlliams… and one of them will have to be let go. And Childress is ripe for the picking… and hey… technically a Euro import!
But this all depends on Marion signing. I’m reserving judgement on the deal until I see what BC does with these assets.
Hold on, why is everyone still talking about RE-SIGNING Anthony Parker, this guy is one of the most overrated players that has ever put on a raptors uniform. Have you ever noticed that we keep sticking him on the elite players of the league and no matter what ALWAYS burn us for 28+ points. Now aside from D, he is very inconsistent on the offensive end, taking in to account that our franchise player is a power forward we can’t have him driving in as much as a 2 or 3 is capable of. I think Anthony Parker is just the new Morris Peterson, we held on to “MoPete” for years because he would have a pretty good night every few games and told fans he was the best defensive player we had, even if that was true that hardly meant he was a respectable defensive player. Regardless of the inclusion of Marion with Bosh and Bargnani, without a coach that changes the dynamics of this team we’re going to play at the same level we did with O’Neal.
All we really need is:
Trade Anthony Parker (Along with Jawai, Kapono, Voskhul if possible) for an upgrade at the 2 spot. This way when we get Calderon back:
Calderon (Develop Ukic)
Someone (Banks)
Marion (Kapono, Graham)
Bosh (Humphries)
Bargnani (Vokhul)
I know including the name ‘someone’ is totally stupid regarding my massive rant about APs gameplay, but nevertheless there must be someone else in the summer who comes free or someone we can trade for now?
Because resigning Parker to a 3 year deal at 1.5 mil per would be perfect if he’s going to be playing only 20 minutes a night. AP is a soild player, he’s just asked to do too much on this team and doesn’t have the legs for 35 minutes a night.
Agree that Parker isnt ideal to be your starting two- but he is a pretty solid contributor and would be a helpful hand on a championship team- in the Brent Barry a la San Antonio mode. He would also be nice to resign if he could come as cheap as 1.5 mil but Im thinking 3-4 mil is probably more close to his market value.
I agree with the Ben Gordon deal, we might have to trade AP and then some to get a little more money off our books and use the cash to get Ben Gordon in
Steve, (*Johnny Mac voice*) “You CANNOT be serious!!”
Day 2 – woke up thinking this didn’t really happen, but yes.. yes it did.
I still have not read one single solitary thing that justifies this trade in any way shape or form. Another panic move by BC, I suspect related to chemistry issues (the same issues people think are non existent). And bringing in a malcontent is supposed to solve this?
BC = Brainless Cretin
Oh, I thought it was Bryan Colangelo.
Jess,
Those who would choose Ben Gordon over David Lee as a player to go with Chris Bosh tell you everything you need to know. : )
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Shawn Marion’s best position in the NBA is the #4/PF spot, not the #3/SF.
When you player outside of his best position in the NBA things tend to not work out so well for your team.
If Shawn Marion was a terrific #3/SF he would still be in Miami playing alongside of:
1/Chalmers + 2/D-Wade + 3/Marion + 4/Beasley or Haslem + 5/Haslem or Anthony or Magloire or Blount
——————————–
Marcus Banks couldn’t play ahead of Chris Quinn, in Miami. Nuff, said.
——————————–
phd,
1. Knew, implicitly, that you would come through as a fan of this specific trade. Read back in that other thread, if you have the time. : )
2. Still waiting for you though to drop “the other shoe” and suggest the need for Mr. Colangelo to go all the way with this current line of thinking, for the Raptors heading forward. Will be interesting to see at what point, in the future, you decide to go that route. : )
——————————–
The Raptors’ problems on defense, and with rebounding, this season were not rooted in the disappointing play of Jamario Moon or Jose Calderon … and they will not be fixed right now through the addition of a player like Shawn Marion, at the #3/SF spot.
——————————–
IN and of itself … this is a bad trade for the Raptors to make.
Remember when you were told on Arsenalist’s old blog that express thing before and after the Jermaine O’Neal trade was made last summer?
That the JO was going to take this team nowhere fast, except perhaps back to TREADMILL STATUS, if the Pres/GM wasn’t very, very careful.
[i.e. The collection of players & coaches the Raptors started this season with COULD have been competitive this season in the EC if they had made the correct decisions with their personnel from the get-go ... but that possibility, given who these people were/are, as individuals, was highly unlikely to happen SOON enough [or at all] to save this season.]
Some folks still haven’t learned their lessons just yet. : (
——————————–
Still …
In the fine tradition, of the Kobayashi Maru … know that there is ALWAYS a workable alternative route [to salvation?] for those who are truly capable of thinking outside-of-the-box.
In this case, there is at least one line-up which does have some possibility for success with this current slate of players for the Raptors … if they have the insight & the bball acumen to go in that direction with their team, heading forward from here, and it will be most interesting to see IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY CAPABLE OF DISCOVERING THIS FACT FOR THEMSELVES … or not.
P.S. To this point, it has yet to be identified by anyone else, in print, on-air, or on-line. : )
P.P.S. I probably write something about it later on this week.
——————————–
The biggest problem in Raptorville lies in the lack of Basketball Acumen shown by the men responsible for running this organization, which in turn filters down through to every level of the team, unfortunately, and even includes significant elements of the media [conventional & unconventional] which covers the Raptors on a regular basis, and its rabid fanbase.
In the REAL world we only have the possibility of trying to sign one of either Gordon or Lee. This team desperately needs to upgrade at the sg position. We desperately need a guard who can create his own shot.
Therefore Gordon would be a better choice for BC and Co. to target.
You are still a douche bag.
Khandor, I’ll hazard a guess at that lineup
Bosh — Marion — Graham — Parker — Calderon
with Calderon at the 5!
Miami gets rid of a terrible contract, gets a huge amount of cap space for 2010, gets the defensive center they need, gets a super cheap version of Marion, gets draft picks, and gets a trade exception. Raptors get Marion for 2 months, a terrible contract, and cap space. Raptors win this one how??
Justin,
IMO, the only people excited by this type of deal for the Raptors are those who do not really care if the team ever wins or even is considered a legitimate conteder to win the NBA Title down-the-road.
Fans who are content just to watch some entertaining basketball, that’s all.
For the other type of fan who does care whether or not the team is authentically trying TO WIN the championship … they know implicitly that there are now at least 5 other teams in the Eastern Conference that will be exceedingly difficult for the Raptors to get by at any time during the next SEVERAL seasons as they are “substantially” ahead of the Raptors on the champiosnip learning/achievement curve, i.e. Boston, Orlando, Cleveland, Detroit, and Miami … with a another batch of teams “slightly” ahead of the dino’s right now, as well, e.g. Chicago, Atlanta, New Jersey, Milwaukee, and Indiana.
The only EC teams in the company of the Raptors right now are Charlotte & Washington … in part, because of the Jermaine O’Neal trade lst summer AND the Jermaine O’Neal + Jamario Moon + future 1st Round Draft Pick trade which was made this week.
Wow. You really like to pontificate like some sort of savant, divined to us by the basketball Gods. Clearly us meager and simple “fans” can’t possibly grasp the difference between Championship Basketball and a YMCA pick-up game.
And what the hell is this:
“In this case, there is at least one line-up which does have some possibility for success with this current slate of players for the Raptors … if they have the insight & the bball acumen to go in that direction with their team, heading forward from here, and it will be most interesting to see IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY CAPABLE OF DISCOVERING THIS FACT FOR THEMSELVES … or not.
P.S. To this point, it has yet to be identified by anyone else, in print, on-air, or on-line. : )
P.P.S. I probably write something about it later on this week.”
You write as if you are hoarding all the answers waiting for MLSE to hand you the keys. This isn’t magic, where keeping your secrets adds mystique… it’s just plain arrogant and condescending…. which are two traits you habitually project without fail.
Your insight is the equivalent to Jamario’s smug grin after jacking a 3 in transition. And similarly, no one is impressed.
“Your insight is the equivalent to Jamario’s smug grin after jacking a 3 in transition. And similarly, no one is impressed.”
That was low. I wouldn’t say that to my worst enemy.
True. True.
But someone has to stand up for the “little man”…
Most comments here are from fans who do care about winning, and some think the Marion deal is a step towards that, and to suggest that thinking so means you are not a true fan of the team is just as low in my opinion.
It’s one thing to debate the deal, it’s another to continuously suggest that you have all answers and everyone is just a cog in the MLSE money machine.
And I’ll defend anyone’s right to be fan.
me too (eventhough I am an idiot)!
I didnt mean my post like that and if you think the Marion trade is a good one then fine, I was just wondering what the reasons for that were.
JO is gone. Acknowledged, the cost is high. Had to be done though. Nobody is trying to say they were operating from strength.
Dave,
There’s a good reason why I R.E.S.P.E.C.T. what you have to say. : )
lessthanzero,
It’s not magic … it just takes eyes like Dave’s.
Dave & phd,
Tell Frank White who you’d go for if the choice was between adding either David Lee or Ben Gordon to the current Raptors’ team.
david lee-
he’s a walking double double
vs
gordon who is a ball hog who needs 20 shots to get his points and is never happy unless the offence runs through him.
the problem is that we have bosh at the 4 and bargs at the 5, do you think lee could hold himself at the three. By reading some knicks blogs, his defense is suspect at the 4 and 3′s are much more athletic. Sounds to me like a defensive disaster.
I’d rather have David Lee on the bench and than Ben Gordon as a full time starter. Ben Gordon. I mean are you guys serious?!
AltRaps,
It’s a good thing … I’m not his WORST enemy. : )
phd,
re: #50
Just think of the mismatch opportunities? : )
agreed.
lessthanzero,
—————————-
And similarly, no one is impressed.
—————————-
Are u sure u want to associate yourself with being a “no one”? : )
There’s that smug grin again.
I admit….I laughed out loud at that one. Well played.
hey Khandor,
I did read your post in the other thread and that was what inspired me to write this piece.
At first, I too was upset abotu the deal- and the inclusion of a pick- and the addition of Banks and Moon- but after spending some time thinking about it- I decided to step back from my earlier posts that suggested BC needed to do more and more.
In fact, I think in retrospect, the biggest issue this season was not the lineup or the JO trade but Calderon’s injury (and BCs inability to bring in a quality back up pg)and the firing of SMITCH. If Calderon doesnt get injured- and SMITCH stays- I think the Raps are at worst .500 and fighting for the 4 spot. Because, after, JO played pretty well here (about 75% of the time).
So, when I took the time to reflect on why this season had really gone into the tank- I felt that the Marion move was actually a nice little coup for BC. But again, it means nothing if the next 6 months dont follow with smart basketball moves to rebuild the bench (both interms of players and coaches). So, this time, Im hoping the other shoe doesnt drop and that Nash and Amare are staying on Pheonix- and that BC just makes a few small moves (that cost nothing more than $) to finish off the rebuild.
What I enjoy most about our discussions Khandor- is that we dont always agree- but its always colourful.
for example- there was that time you suggested AP play the point and CB4 play centre and JO come off the bench months before Triano tried any of that stuff…and I told you that was ridiculous…but you were right.
Or that time when you had that poll on your site about how I said Yao was better than Bynum and it started a crazy heated debate for weeks…by the way,
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1722
Judging by this trade, either Colangelo is going for broke over the next two seasons or is planning an extended rebuilding period post 2010 (when Bosh leaves).
If he wants to go for it over the next two years (which I completely disagree with), he needs to create cap flexibility to obatin 1 or 2 quality veterans to surround Calderon, Bosh, Marion and Bargnani. Before you read on, I am not a fan of trading first round picks, but the circumstances have dictated that we may have to do so.
With this in mind, Colangelo HAS to trade Kapono and Banks’ contract before or very early into the offseason. The most efficient way to do this is to trade these players to rebuilding teams along with a positive asset (first round picks). Teams might be interested in such a deal would be teams like Minny and Oklahoma. With both of these players off of our roster, our cap hit for next year would be 35 million.
If I were Colangelo, my course of action would be: (if I wanted to compete and keep Bosh happy)
1. Trade Kapono and a protected first rounder 2011* to Oklahoma for Joe Smith
2. Trade Marcus Banks and a protected first 2012* and second rounder (when he is eligable to be traded) to Memphis for a conditional second or a trade exemption.
3. Resign Marion to 3 year 24 million deals
4. If 3 doesn’t work, sign Marvin Williams to an offer sheet of 3 years 30 million
5. If 3 or 4 do not work sign Ron Artest to a 2 year 14 million contract
6. Resign Parker to 3 years 4.5 million
7. Resign Joey to 3 years 7 million.
8. Sign Rasho to a 2 year 6 million
At this point, I have added an average of 14 million salary. This brings the total up to 49 million. I am assuming the salary cap is going to be at 58 million and luxury to be at 69 million.
8. Sign Ben Gordon to a 5 year 45 million dollar contract
9. Sign Delfino to a 4 year 15 million dollar contract.
This adds another 14 million in average salary bringing the total to 63 million.
The roster for next year would be:
pg: calderon / ukic / minimum
sg: gordon / parker/ draft pick
sf: williams / delfino / graham
pf: bosh / hump
c: bargnani / rasho / jawaii
This is a very versatile lineup which could realisticly compete over the next two year, but would send us to salary cap hell. It has quality depth, good offense and good rebounding. The defense is not strong, bt the group of players are young.
If Colangelo does not do something like what I propose (compete over the next two years) or trade Bosh for prospects (start rebuilding early) then this team will be stuck in an in-between period and will struggle to get out. Good players will continue to leave our team as there is no potential for success.
* The first rounder will be the next availabe after the one given to Miami.
The gist of your post is basically that the Marion trade in itself means nothing unless Colangelo is able to make a series of other moves to fill out the roster. I think it’s only a coup if Marion plays well and gets resigned OR he walks but we sign a decent wing (e.g: Marvin) to a deal with the money we saved (after trading Kapono). Also, BC should be able to address the backup PG situation (if Banks is the answer, great) and should sign a veteran rebounding big to the MLE. I don’t see Jawai amounting to anything worthwhile and relying on Humphries to play 82 consistent games is asking a lot.
phd,
re: #55
IMO, you deserve a tonne of credit for stating THAT.
Sincere Kudos to you, sir! … and, my R.E.S.P.E.C.T.
Btw, GO Lions! : )
Dino Gunner,
————————
the problem is that we have bosh at the 4 and bargs at the 5, do you think lee could hold himself at the three. By reading some knicks blogs, his defense is suspect at the 4 and 3’s are much more athletic. Sounds to me like a defensive disaster.
————————
Should it ever come to pass:
Bosh would be the 5.
Lee would be the 4.
Bargnani would be the 4/5 off the bench.
Yeah, I was thinking thats might be what you were proposing. But, without creating some salary cap relief, are we going to address our problem at sg? If marion were to leave and we sign lee (as you proposed), our wings would be in the same position as they were at the beginning of this year. We could draft a 2/3, but they would realisticly take 2 to 3 years to get accuminlated to the team.
Although I too feel Lee is a better player than Gordon, it would create severe imbalance to the squad and I do not that situation somewhat like what we had with JO. (Three quality bigs, but were being exposed by lack of exterior presence both offensively and defensively)
Josh Childress is only a marginally better player than a mediocre NBA wing like … you know who. : )
He’s more versatile than Moon… and he went to Stanford… so clearly… he’s got a higher basketball IQ.
He can play the 2 and the 3, which I suppose Delfino can do too, but Childress is less of a chucker. I’d rather see Childress than Delfino because he has the kind of steady intangibles that made Parker such a good fit… and I can see him replacing Parker as a starter.
But if we sign Delfino, Parker, Graham, and Marion, then I think, even with the drafting of a big, the MLE is going to go to a big.
I think he’s referring to Rodney Carney.
Dino Gunner,
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Judging by this trade, either Colangelo is going for broke over the next two seasons or is planning an extended rebuilding period post 2010 (when Bosh leaves).
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Or … in his own mis-guided way … he is, once again, HEDGING his bets on both accounts … which will ultimately produce? … nothing of major significance for this team anytime soon, unfortunately.
Dino Gunner,
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We could draft a 2/3, but they would realisticly take 2 to 3 years to get accuminlated to the team.
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It would depend entirely on the actual QUALITY of that #2/3.
Authentic quality is recognizable almost right away … and really doesn’t take that long [in the grand scheme of things ... macro-style ... hey, Dylan, baby, that one was just for you! : ) ] to mature at all, e.g. Roy, Gay, Ginobili, Allen, Pierce, etc., none of whom were Top 3 picks, all of whom are very, very good.
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He’s more versatile than Moon… and he went to Stanford… so clearly… he’s got a higher basketball IQ. – by lessthanzero
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The inclusion of a smiley might indicate that you were joking. In it’s absence, however, one might have to assume that you meant exactly what you wrote … which, IN FACT, couldn’t possibly be further than Da Truth.
Comments, like this one, are the reason, in part, some members of the Raptors’ basketball community mistakenly think that Jamario Moon has a less-than-first-rate Bball IQ … which is simply nonsense.
Stereotypical viewpoints like that do more damage than many people realize.
Sure there may be some exaggeration in my point… I don’t think an insincere smiley is necessary to understand that.
But Childress is known for his smarts… which I explained further on in my post.
Jamario was never known for his basketball IQ. He was an opportunistic player who relied on his athleticism to recover from poor defensive positioning and would frequently fail to make the extra pass when swinging the ball around the outside. He was never in the flow of the game… he would, literally and figuratively, bounce in and out of the play.
He may stuff the stat sheet, but he’s playing a zero sum game and just bailing himself out of his own mistakes with super human athletic feats.
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There’s that smug grin again. – by lessthanzero
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Back in the day … there were many who didn’t appreciate this smug mug, either.
Times … they are a-changing … : ) … and, as Howard Cosell once said:
History [time-?] will show that, on the important issues, I was to be found on the side of Right, not Wrong.
Goofy grins, or mouths that roar … when it comes to action … it’s “the What” that matters most, not necessarily, “the How”.
: )
Sadly “the what” in your case is just a pile of trash.
Justin,
If your most recent comment [#76] was intended towards me then know that I agree with you about the quality of the Marion trade for the Raptors. It was not what they should have done in this instance.
This is one story line every fan should follow. From Hollinger:
“Finally, let me share a juicy tip from a league source on the state of the salary cap. Basically, the situation will be worse than many people expect, and the luxury-tax level next season will be set even lower than what several teams are currently planning for. The implications will be huge as we head into next season.
Here’s the more interesting part of what I was told: Next season’s luxury tax might just be the tip of the iceberg. The salary cap (and thus the tax level) could drop massively in 2010; my source used the term “bloodbath.”
This would have huge effects on the pursuit of big-game free agents, of course, but also on the luxury-tax level for that season … which could push many more teams over the line and lead to fire-sale-type trades.
All this would be a prelude to the labor negotiations for a new collective bargaining agreement in 2011. If money gets as tight as some project, things could get ugly.”
Huge implications for the Raps this summer, and next, where if things go down as Hollinger predicts, Bosh may be forced to take an extension from the Raps… he may have few other suitors… and will likely look foolish throwing away the 30 million home court advantage in the throws of a shrinking salary cap.
old news..posted on our weblinks about 4 hours ago.
Not old. From today’s article. His previous one stated that the majority of the damage would be to the 2010 cap because this season’s revenue had mostly been accounted for as the endorsements and season ticket renewals were confirmed before the market collapse. This “update”, if that’s what you prefer to call it, addresses the 2009 season, which wasn’t portrayed as direly in his previous article as it was today and relates very much to what this Raptros article is trying to argue. The money available to BC appears to shrinking by the day.
It’s good to stay current, check the date of the article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-Star-Notebook-090215
I see. My bad. I thought you were referring to his previous posting from early 2009.
Still relevant to the conversation I will argue.
Doesn’t the moderator realise that every comments section ends up littered with aloof comments from Khandor leaving other posters feeling irritated, bored or insulted? Ban him, he can go back to his own side or RealGM. I get it, Bosh is a C, BC is an idiot, and so is every other poster on here. Why doesn’t dude ever hit the reply button?
Maybe that’s a little cruel, but when PhD throws him a bone it only goes to his head.
“Your insight is the equivalent to Jamario’s smug grin after jacking a 3 in transition. And similarly, no one is impressed.” That is much more eloquent…
And on the whole Lee vs Gordon debate, Lee is a much better player, no argument. But if we learned anything from the JO trade, we are better off having a good starter at every position before we start spending loads on back ups. On this team Gordon is more appealing than Lee, but there has to be someone out there more appealing than Gordon to man the 2.
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Doesn’t the moderator realise that every comments section ends up littered with aloof comments from Khandor leaving other posters feeling irritated, bored or insulted? Ban him, he can go back to his own side or RealGM. – by Robert Archibald
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Do not make the mistake of assuming that those who run RR agree with your perspective on this.
I can assure you that I have not made the mistake of assuming that they actually agree with mine.
One of the very best things about the good people who run RR, dating back to Arsenalist’s old blog is the open-minded tolerance which they have for the difference in opinion held by others.
It’s a blessing, not a curse, and you should be appreciative of THAT fact.
Khandor-
Have you even watched any miami games this season, other than blathering the “he’s not a TRUE” three nonsense by ESPN?
Is that why Miami has struggled this season? Don’t make me laugh. It is for this reason they have stayed afloat! I know Heat fans love to spout their small sample 7 and 4 record without him but with Wade you go seven and four with four high school girls. it has nothing to do with Marion.
Marion does the following (upon a scouting report of one particular game–but also having watched several Heat games this season):
1. Sets up all screens on the pick and roll. Marion sets all initial picks for Wade.
2. Is their best and smartest defender.
3. Gets most of their offensive and dfensive rebounds–certainly causes more deflections
4. Works as an offensive facilitator with his passing.
5. Remains a threat to score at the hoop (notice i didn’t say drive), and thus allows Wade a bit of space initially on his setups.
6. He has no offence run for him whatsoever and doesn’t shoot threes(1 per game on average)–and yet averages 12 and 8
7. Guards the other team’s best player.
Whether he is a true three or not is irrelevant. He is not on that team because Miami was the smallest team in the history of the NBA (yes, that is hyperbole, tough). They have now made the team worse. Jermaine can’t move his legs to move to the ball anymore even though he does a good job of covering for it. At least Marion made them one of the better defensive teams. What does moon do for them? Nothing. Now, when he gets hurt, they better pray Daequan Cook scores like 30 a night.
Will they fare better down the road? Perhaps. But that has more to do with where they are situated and what their tax laws are. They’ll get another star because free agents like to go to Miami and love not paying taxes. This is why the deal works for both teams.
We get a good player they can use.
They get a chance to try and use their “miami” advanatge in 2010, which we were not ever going to be able to compete in.
T.O. is not Miami, it’s not New York and it ain’t LA. Hell, it ain’t even Cleveland. We are what we are. We will always be a team struggling to be on the cusp of greatness unless a great pick falls into our laps (which is more dumb luck than anything) while Bosh is still in his prime. Best case scenario is Utah. Is that so bad?
In the meantime, either live with aiming for “really good” or gtfo.
^^^^who is this guy???
its like the good lord came out of nowhere and slapped someone.
nice post.
Lol…is that the David Moro of Epic Misel Postojna? I’d believe it.
David Muro,
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1. Sets up all screens on the pick and roll. Marion sets all initial picks for Wade.
2. Is their best and smartest defender.
3. Gets most of their offensive and dfensive rebounds–certainly causes more deflections
4. Works as an offensive facilitator with his passing.
5. Remains a threat to score at the hoop (notice i didn’t say drive), and thus allows Wade a bit of space initially on his setups.
6. He has no offence run for him whatsoever and doesn’t shoot threes(1 per game on average)–and yet averages 12 and 8
7. Guards the other team’s best player.
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None of those points is concerned with the observation I made that Marion’s best fit position, in the NBA, is the #4/PF spot.
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Whether he is a true three or not is irrelevant. He is not on that team because Miami was the smallest team in the history of the NBA (yes, that is hyperbole, tough).
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IMO, Marion isn’t on that team anymore for several reasons, one of which, is that he isn’t good enough as a #3/SF, at his salary, to justify playing major minutes for their team, given the production he provided for the Heat … and at that price-tag was capable of pulling in what Pat Riley thought the Heat needed most right now, and looking ahead to the 2010 season, given the other resources on their roster … which is very different than the resources the Raptors had when they dealt for Jermaine O’Neal this past summer.
Of course, that’s just my opinion.
nadir,
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JO is gone. Acknowledged, the cost is high. Had to be done though. Nobody is trying to say they were operating from strength.
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1. What’s the reason you believe it had to be done?
2. What catastrophe, if any, might have come about if the Raptors finished this season with a 31-51 W-L record? … and the following roster:
STARTERS
Calderon
Moon [expires 2009]
Graham [expires 2009]
Bargnani
Bosh
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KEY BENCH SUBS
Parker [expires 2009]
player X [acquired in exchange for Jason Kapono]
O’Neal [expires 2010]
—————
RESERVES
Ukic
Humphries
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EXTRAS
Solomon
Jawai
Voskuhl
They weren’t gonna play him off the bench.
nadir,
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They weren’t gonna play him off the bench.
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Okay. Would it make a major difference in your rationale if O’Neal & Bargnani were flip-flopped, like this, instead?
STARTERS
Calderon
Moon [expires 2009]
Graham [expires 2009]
O’Neal [expires 2010]
Bosh
—————
KEY BENCH SUBS
Parker [expires 2009]
player X [acquired in exchange for Jason Kapono]
Bargnani
—————
RESERVES
Ukic
Humphries
—————
EXTRAS
Solomon
Jawai
Voskuhl
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Lol…is that the David Moro of Epic Misel Postojna? I’d believe it. – by Raptoronto
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Hopefully David is getting the good coaching he needs in order to become a Top Flight player … according to the info on his eurobasket profile.
[yes, indeed ... lol, : ) ]
I think we may need to get used to Triano as our coach. Everything BC has said so far seems like he is trying to get the fans used to him coming back next year. I don’t have the exact quaote but he has said that the are on the same page and he has done nothing to lose the job yet. If he is saying that now then even a modest improvement would make you think he will be back.
Hey phdsteve, I agree w/ you on most point except that I think BC should do one more trade b4 the deadline. The trade of Parker, Graham & Solomon for Butler makes a lot of sense for both sides. Parker, Graham (qualifying offer) & Solomon are all expiring contracts – which Washington desparately needs since they will be over the luxury tax, at least 5 million, next year just by keeping its current roster (not like they are going to get pass first round). Washington can re-sign Graham (who is a lesser version of Butler) in case it wants to fill the void left by Butler. For us, we added another legit all-star guard. Problem is we have to go over the luxury tax a bit this year (since we have to add two more fillers to make the count of roster at 13). Next year though, when Marion’s contract comes off the book, our payroll will be siting at around 56 million. Assume Cap is 58 million, we can sign Rasho to a 3 year 5 million contract. We can use the MLE on Delfino for 3 years 10 million and Larry-Bird on Marion for 3 years 21 million. Total payroll sit somewhere around 68 million. Not to mention we have the following line-up.
Bosh/Nathan
Bargnani/Nesterovic/Humpries
Jose/Banks/Ukic
Marion/Kapono
Butler/Delfino
+ a 2009 first rounder.
Definitely not bad for a starting line-up.
Resigning Delfino and buying draft picks is a must but outside of Marion (at the right price as his stock appears to be low) I really hope BC spends cap space through trade rather than through free agency… The quick fixes never work!