They say the team that got the best player in the deal won the trade. It’s simplistic but often true. So if you want to feel good about this one, that’s all you need to know.
When I first heard O’Neal got traded for Marion, I was happy. Then I heard Marcus Banks was coming our way instead of Joel Anthony and I was like, not great, but still good. Then I heard we also threw in a protected first-round pick in 2010 that will outright belong to Miami in 2015 along with a second-round pick if they don’t get it next year. That’s not so good. The Raptors have no business giving up a chance to get younger and have a shot at drafting their future star. If we make the playoffs next we’ll be going without a first round pick for 3 out of 4 years. By trading draft picks you’re putting immense pressure on yourself to make great trades and free agent signings to fill out your roster. If Marion walks at the end of the season and we don’t sign a big name free agent, this trade will backfire because all it’ll end up meaning is we traded O’Neal’s contract (which has great value next year) and a draft pick for the problem that is Marcus Banks, or in other words 2 first round picks, TJ Ford, Rasho for Marcus Banks.
Marcus Banks’ contract is very undesirable as already proven by Phoenix and Miami. Taking him on as part of this deal does hamstring us to some degree. We like to complain about Kapono’s 6M deal and Banks isn’t much better at 4.5M till the end of 2010-11. Even with Marion expiring at the end of the year we’re still above the salary cap and will have a difficult time signing a big name unless we unload Jason Kapono and/or Marcus Banks. With only one team in the league (Memphis) being under the cap, the chances of unloading them without taking a contract back is remote. The O’Neal deal was an easy one to make for Colangelo, it’s the second deal that will give us the flexibility of going after the players we need this summer that’s going to determine whether this was really worth it.
Now, we did get some cash believed to be approximately three million dollars which should cover a lot of Banks’ contract but that does no good to us as a team. It’s pure cash, not a trade exception so all it means is money for MLSE, not an asset that can be used in future deals. Let me put Marcus Banks in perspective for you: he gets beat by Chris Quinn for playing time. ‘Nuf said.
What does this do for us this season? It does give us the perimeter defender that we’ve been lacking as Marion can very well hold his own at the wing. It gives Bargnani more playing time at a more natural position, allows for Humphries to get back into the mix and also gives Joey more burn. All good stuff but these are all things that could’ve happened if we simply hadn’t traded for O’Neal and instead used TJ Ford and Rasho to get some help at the wing position earlier (Gerald Wallace for TJ was offered, yes, I know he’s injured). Oh, don’t forget that we gave up the 17th pick for basically nothing at this point. This trade is Colangelo acknowledging that the O’Neal experiment – although started with noble intentions – should never have been made. Those of you who called it when it happened, take a bow.
Is the Bargnani-Bosh-Marion-Calderon tandem the future? I think it’s too early to tell, we need to see what Marion can do for us first. He’s 31 years old and his primary advantage over others at his position is quickness and that’s the first thing to go. I don’t even want to speculate on what we should offer him in the summer (if we decide to re-sign him), but the bad economic times should help us out and we might only have to slightly overpay to retain him. For the remainder of the season he should be able to help us guard the opposing team’s best wing player and help out on the boards thus putting less pressure on Bargnani to do so.
I was happy with the Raptors tanking a couple seasons, getting some high picks, trying to resign Bosh and if we couldn’t, trading him for assets. This deal changes all that and shows Colangelo’s hand to all the GMs and agents in the league – now he has to make FA signings this summer otherwise Bosh is gone. It would not shock me to see our probable lottery pick this year traded as its clear that Colangelo’s priority is to retain Bosh and not look at the broader 5-year outlook of this team. Right now he’s winging everything, there’s no specific plan or roadmap to his moves and he’s just trying to apply bandaids in hopes of racking up enough wins and giving Bosh a reason to re-sign.
Now my dislike for Jamario Moon is well-documented and I’m glad to see him go. However, that doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s going to be an asset for the Heat. Sam Mitchell gave him too long of a leash in his rookie season and it spoiled him, he got used to getting away with missing defensive assignments, not playing hard, settling for jumpers and generally speaking, playing some pretty dumb basketball. Erik Spoelstra and Pat Riley won’t tolerate a grin after he jacks up a 26-footer in transition with 35 seconds left and the team down one (Atlanta). With some tough coaching, hard practices and a narrow but well-defined role, Moon can flourish. The problem with him in Toronto was that he was simply too high up in our rotation. He was never meant to be a starter but played 30+ minutes; when he did come off the bench he was usually the first guy of it when he should’ve been the third. His constant presence on the floor spoke of our lack of depth and with Joey and Parker around, we have more than enough scrubs to fill Moon’s role.
I don’t think O’Neal was as bad as some people are making him out to be, he played in 75% of our games (41 of 55) and averaged 13.5 ppg on 47% shooting, 7 rpg and 2 bpg. What else did you expect? The main problem with the Raptors is their perimeter defense and when you’re allowing constant dribble-penetration and failing to rotate, everybody ends up looking bad. Unfortunately for O’Neal, the finger ended up being pointed at him since he was our prime off-season acquisition. I can’t count how many times he’s gone out to help on a driving wing only to find that the rotation behind him was never made resulting in an offensive rebound or a score. Bargnani’s somehow earned a reprieve for his defense but we hold O’Neal to stringent standards when it comes to paint defense and rebounding. Doesn’t make sense.
From the Heat’s perspective, this is a great deal. If O’Neal stays healthy he’ll give them the inside presence they desperately need. They’ll also get to trade O’Neal to a team that’s looking to shed salary next year (ahem, Memphis, Sacramento). Finances-wise, they get a 4M trade-exception which gives them even more flexibility to acquire assets to help them this year. Plus, there’s the possibility of not one, but two draft picks. If I had to pick a winner here, it’s the Heat.
To end, I’d like to finally thank Colangelo for addressing the perimeter defense need after doing nothing in the summer of 2007 and 2008. Here’s hoping Jason Kapono wins the three-point contest so he becomes a little more appealing.
Thanks for reading.



137 Raps
Man that O’Neal guy is lucky. He basically used the Raptors as a practice pad to come back, get acclimated and get his groove back…and BAM he gets traded to freakin MIAMI and gets to play on a real team with a top-5 player in the game while making around 55 mil this and next year. Oh, that O’Neal…
Great analysis of the deal couldn’t agree more.
This trade isn’t about talent, it’s a trade defined by contracts. The talent is largely inconsequential because it’s in neither team’s interest to hold onto their players past their present contracts.
The Raptors got their ass kicked today.
Big problems, big problems are hanging around that corner.
Dave,
could you elaborate on that please
(1) The best opportunity to add top tier talent to both the Miami Heat and the Toronto Raptors was free agency, and in particular the 2010 free agency. Neither team was good enough to compete for an NBA title without that player, so to both teams, this was the pivotal opportunity.
(2) Neither Shawn Marion, or Jermaine O’Neal, or superior talents in comparison to the large number of highly talented players available in 2010. Therefore, it’s in both team’s best interests to sign players other than Marion/O’Neal after their current contracts expire.
(3) The Raptors intend to keep Bosh, Bargnani and Calderon. Those contracts in conjunction with the other deals on the Raptors books (Kapono, Hump, Ukic, draft picks) had the Raptors walking a tightrope in terms of their 2010 cap situation. In other words, they barely had enough space to add the caliber of player they desperately needed prior to the trade and couldn’t afford to take any other contracts because it would eliminate that opportunity.
Marcus Banks is that contract that the Raptors could not afford to take on. That $5mil takes Toronto out of the picture in 2010.
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The Raptors just threw away their best opportunity to build a Championship caliber side.
This deal could tie the Raptors down and keep them in mediocrity for the next 5-7 years, and/or force a long term rebuilding phase.
Well said Arse.
Glad the deal finally got done, interesting that our next game is against the Cavs. Marion will have a perfect opportunity to show how well he can defend against Lebron. Good riddance Jamrio!
They didn’t give up a pick in this year’s draft, it’s in the 2010 draft, correct? if that’s the case it’s not nearly as bad as it seems. We suck this year, get a good pick, and hopefully improve in the off-season enough to give Miami a crappy pick in return. Surrendering a 2nd round pick is nothing, we could buy another one with the cash they gave us.
I don’t think its fair to say he has no plan. We’re more balanced as a team then we’ve ever been now, we’ll have cap flexibility in the summer. We all knew the O’neal experiment was a gamble, who expected Calderon to be out half the season? I would agree that it hasn’t even been that good when all cylinders are firing though.
I think you have your years mixed up. We’re 2009. We keep our 2009 draft pick, playoffs or not. So, no, it won’t be 3 years in a row without a pick.
2010 is next summer… the first draft year where the pick is eligible to head to Miami.
Thanks for that.
I am so frustrated with how we continually give up draft picks. No wonder this team has no depth. Colangelo better make that cap space go a long way this summer or next year is going to be another long season.
Ugh
Good post Arsenalist, solid breakdown of the situation.
Just one point as I just got off the conference call with BC. The cash CAN be used for certain transactions and in fact BC stated that he could use the money to purchase draft picks as there “were picks to be had this year.” If the right player falls, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go shopping.
Another point that I found interesting was that Moon wasn’t the sticking point in the deal, it was the pick. Miami did always want the selection but it wasn’t until they decided to send back cash and agree to BC’s conditions surrounding the pick that the deal could get done. It’s good insurance because this way if the team struggles next year and it sounds like Bosh is out, they’ll be able to hold the pick to help the rebuilding. That likely means another few seasons of lottery for us fans but also it means that Miami likely won’t see the pick until that 2015 date.
Would love to know what those certain transactions are, looking forward to your post.
As for Moon not being the sticking point, I would’ve figured. Riley’s not an idiot.
Sorry, should have clarified – BC never went into the full extent of what the cash could be used for besides discussing the option of buying picks. But I think the promising thing here is a) that it’s not simply going back into MLSE coffers and b) it’s probably enough so that he could grab a late-first round pick and possibly a second-round selection this year on top of the one we already have if the right players are there. This point is huge because as you stated in your recap of the deal, if Marion walks and that money can’t be used to refurbish the club via the draft, the team is left with precious little besides Marcus Banks.
Great. If Marion walks and the Raps can’t sign a FA (or use the cap space to swing a deal) then we can all take solace in the fact that the Raps MAY be able to purchase a late 1st rounder or an early 2nd. I feel better already.
Great post, Arse. And Franchise. Very interesting stuff.
Arse, for me the start of your post was total deja vu. When I heard the Raps trade TJ for JO, I was thrilled. When I heard Rasho was included in the deal I was slightly miffed but still felt ok. When I heard we also included a pick I was very disappointed. BC just did it again.
Its more clear than ever that BC is a very impatient man. Whether you want to call it impatience or panic or whatever, its obvious that BC has been more than willing to sweeten the pot in order to get a deal done. I’m pleased the Raps have dealt JO for Marion, but the inclusion of Banks and the pick have me miffed.
Raptorshq rocks the show!
Has the Raptors franchise ever bought a first-round pick outright with cold hard cash? Has BC ever bought a first round pick?
It’s nice to say things like those but in reality, its not going to happen. Richard Peddie’s spending that money on high-priced hookers as we speak.
Franchise,
Thanks for the insight. I feel better about the trade already.
Wow! I can’t believe the negativity.
The Raptors just got the Matrix!! This guy never got the respect he deserved – he never got to an All star game and was not really given credit for how good he was in Phoenix. The guy can easily average 20 and 10 at the small forward position for us and makes the Raptors a LOT more athletic! He’ll guard the other teams best 2/3 guards, grab some important boards for us and throw down some big dunks to get his teammates and the fans going.
O’neal was not working out in Toronto and this was the best deal available for the short term and probably the long term. I’d definatley try to sign him in the off season and then our ONLY weakness becomes the 2 guard spot and the bigs on the bench. I think Colangelo tries his best to keep Marion in the of season and drafts a 2 guard or tires to sign one in the off season and we’re good!
Also I don;t think having all the extra cap space available in 2010 is that important to Colangelo – The chances of getting a second max contract player that year is slim to none and I think signing Bosh and then maybe Steve Nash would be a best case scenario for us in 2010. Remember he’ll need to keep extra cash available going forward to resign Bargani.
When the Suns were in 1st place in the west a couple of years ago he was complaining. And then he got traded to the last place Heat and was happy about it. The guy’s selfish and doesn’t care about winning.
Also have you seen his stats in Miami?? Totally different than his inflated PHX stats.
Bernard, shawn marion is a 4 time all-star. I best remember him for guarding MJ in his last all star game, with MJ hitting a fadeaway J to force OT. But I agree with you on The Matrix. In my opinion he was the Suns’ main source of defense and has been a good 2-way forward. He can also help solve our rebounding problems, he takes it to the rim for the jam, and can hit way way way better jumpers than jamario moon despite his weird jumpshot. Our wing problem has been remedied. So it’s up to Jake, and Kris to be our backup big men. Jake is ok, rasho-like. I like Kris’s hustle. Bosh should now step up his game, play an effective post up game like he did in Cleveland.
Big Nate (send him to our D-League team please)
Pat Riley did not agree on the deal yet saying that he has to see that JO can play, and so far in his last games with us JO has been playing great. Too bad the trade was clearly not what we expected, but I do wish him the best in Miami. He has been a great teammate, very unselfish, and has matured in many ways.
How bad is this banks guy? This guy’s been everywhere, from boston, phoenix, miami. And wtf, how did he get that contract????? I just don’t like that we gave up a first round pick, since we really need those to get quality young guys, rather than sign free-agents and make trades. So how many picks do we have in the next years? We got a second round pick when we shipped hassan adams to the clips right?
I think BC’s willingness to give up our 1st round picks speaks volumes about his ego. I guarantee you that he is confident in his ability to pull off lop-sided trades and sign a marquee free agent this summer. Problem is, I believe that BC’s ego could ultimately sink this franchise and dig a hole that might be impossible to climb out of…
We’re already halfway into that proverbial hole.
Did anyone realize that the 3 million that we got back can be used to buy another draft pick.
Or MLSE can just sit on their hands and keep it. Or better yet maybe we could’ve just kept our own pick but I guess our 2-time Executive of The Year just made “the best deal on the table” so we have to believe him.
3 million for Richard Peddie to buy a roll of gold toilet paper and wipe his ass…
Arsenalist,
Great article! How come Franchise gets invited to insider conference calls with BC and you get left behind like the fat girl at the prom? Where’s the justice in that???
I’m a leper.
Lepers only truly exist in impoverished countries like Africa, South America, India.
You aren’t African, South American, or Indian.
Oh, wait….
20/10 was what was said of Jermaine O’Neal coming in. Better remember your words if the time comes that you’re forced to eat them.
who said that? i don’t recall anyone expecting 20/10 from JO. shit, bosh barely gives us that, and we think he’s the cat’s ass. nice bit of revisionist history, something that’s become quite common around here.
When you talk about how the guys has found the fountain of youth and used to be a 20/10 and is a former 6 time all star, for 3-4 months… people start to expect those kind of performances. They don’t expect them vs the Kings and then taking a bundle of games off. Consistency, at the very least. And that he did not offer at all. Oh, 1 good game.. followed by 3, at best, mediocre ones.
Downplaying all the huge expectations that were showered upon the fans at the start of the year, something that has become a norm around these here parts. The excuse fest continues, while looking backwards and forwards.
Not to mention, we you come out and say you were brought it to “take the team to the next level” and fail.. you get to eat the soup you made.
Same goes for the MVP – CB4.
Shame that he goes on to enjoy the great Miami weather and play with Dwade in an actual system.
a lot of good points here, the raptors are in dire straights right now…dire…
‘right now?’ what, because of this trade, or because they’re pretty much out of playoff contention either way, and in serious risk of not being able to re-sign bosh?
FUck…no censoring…should of just gave them Anthony Parker instead of anything related to the draft picks….. He better draft another Kobe in this coming draft in the 1st round and 2nd round.
OH NO!! He’s not drafting…he’s gonna sign free agent Euros for the next 5 years instead of drafting!
and what’s the problem with that? If they end up being good and solid role players or bench depht, i don’t see a problem there
they better all be part of the Ginobili, Gasol, and Tony Parker quality
Anyone watchin Kevin Durant in the Rook Challenge????
MONSTER, I’d Trade the entire Raptors team for him!!!
BTW, he just turned 20 yrs old and even has his own shoe!
I think MLSE has more to do with this trade than BC. Everybody would assume Toronto would use Marion’s 16 million dollar to sign a all-star this summer? I think not. I believe what they want is shred some salary and same 21 million in 2010.
Speculating wildly …. Bosh + Kapono for Amare + Barbosa ….??!!!
Just imagine Bosh and Shaq a perfect fit .. and Kapono uniting with Shaq too …LOL
Just a further nutty thought …. Suns are in 9th place in the West an only one game behind Utah. They were apparently trying to move Amare .. and replacing him with Bosh would benefit their half-court offence with Shaq in the middle. Also they need scoring which Kapono could provide. Perhaps the Raptors have the pieces the Suns need to advance in the West.
I suspect Sun’s owner Sarver might not want to trade Amare and Barbosa to the Raptors because I believe he hates BCs guts .. or some kind of animosity … but WTH if it would help the Suns and my fantacising …!!!!!
Kevin Durant’s already a top 15 player at the age of 20. Such shooting, such passing, such handles for a 6-10 player…
Realizar what a dummy you are, just admit that Durant is great.
Have a listen to Colangelo’s conference call this afternoon. Here is the link.
http://fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20090213_195929_4536
A couple of observations from BC’s conference call:
1. BC is seriously considering re-signing Marion.
2. BC confirmed that the cap space the team would get conceivably from this trade is approximately 10-11 Million – but that would ONLY happen if the team renounces its rights to all of its free agents – ie. it does not re-sign Marion, renounces its rights to Delfino (who has a cap hold against the Raptors cap space for his qualifying offer), doesn’t re-sign Parker and renounces its rights to Graham.
3. In reality, BC seems to be suggesting that the team may be better off re-signing some or all of its own players (ie. Graham, Parker), bringing back Delfino – so that it is not under the cap and then use its mid level exception to sign another player.
4. BC thinks Marion will fit well with this team – as a defender and good rebounder at the 3 position.
5. Miami wanted a pick in the earlier discussions but the Raptors refused and only agreed recently when Miami agreed to the cash considerations. BC views the cash considerations as potentially being used to acquire a future first round pick. So he wasn’t that concerned about giving up this pick.
6. No other trade discussions came up with more cap space available – ex: a trade for Stephon Marbury.
BC seems to be suggesting that the reasons he made this trade were as follows:
(a) to address a weakness at the wing position with a player who can play strong defense and rebound and complements Bosh and Bargnani on the defensive end;
(b) to create roster flexibility, not cap space – ie. it does not sound like the Raptors will be players in the free agent market because of this trade (unless they make some other move like trading Kapono). Rather, with O’Neal’s contract the team was up against the luxury tax and had no ability to add players or improve. With this trade, the Raptors now have an opportunity to re-sign some of their players including Delfino, Graham and Parker if they want to or do sign and trades for those players to take them up to the cap and then they will have the full mid-level exception to sign another player in the offseason.
So much for all of those who thought that this trade would mean cap space making the Raptors significant players in the free agent market. That doesn’t seem likely, although with the current economic client it may be that the Raptors could sign a fairly good player with the mid-level exception.
phd,
Know that I’m waiting for you to say your piece about what the next step SHOULD be for the Raptors. : ) [not to jump all over it, just because it might actually be the logical next step, in this specific situation] Hopefully you won’t disappoint. It’s right there … almost close enough to reach out and touch, right now …
==========================================
Dave,
————————
This trade isn’t about talent, it’s a trade defined by contracts. The talent is largely inconsequential because it’s in neither team’s interest to hold onto their players past their present contracts.
The Raptors got their ass kicked today.
Big problems, big problems are hanging around that corner.
————————
Nuff, said. : )
Why is it that whenever I read khandors posts I get a migraine headache?
Because he’s a douche bag.
Another great post arse…
As for anyone wanting to reunite stoudamire and Marion….not gonna happen.
I have a friend who has a pretty sweet job with the suns and he once told me that while he’s never seen them fight, it was common knowledge that they didn’t like each other.
As a suns fan my first 23 years of existence ( I went rap city along with bc 3 years ago, although I can safely criticize him now after some of the things he’s done) I’ve watched
Marion plenty of times and while I think he’s a fresh defender and a nice puzzle piece, he’s certainly not gonna single handedly change the makeup of this team.
Say somehow we were magically get decent
and make the playoffs…it ends right there..matrix looks a little more like matrix 3 come playoff time.
That and he can be a cancer. I had another “friend” who was even closer to the team who had told once told me a story about them being on the team bus during a playoff series, after a game they had won, and he watched marions agent yell at bc because he didn’t get enough touches in the game.
I’d be a little more worried if we were a better team. But these days even Marion has to know he (and we) is on his last leg.
yea Amare & Marion had beef over shots on the Suns and thats why Shawn got traded.
Well, I am displeased with this trade. We lost way too much. Pat Riley simply took Colangelo’s desire to get rid of O’Neal and wrenched out a very-good-for-the-money Moon, and a future pick, AND unloaded a bad contract.
I am pleased that O’Neal will be traded to a team that I think will be a better fit for him. He will get more minutes, and will be the only legitimate big man. Beasley is more of an outside presence.
I am not pleased, because I feel that this season is not worth giving up this much for. We have to think about the future. No matter how well Marion plays, I still feel like the Raps got taken. I would have like to see Joel Anthony thrown in at least, or not give up Jamario.
- – - – - – - -
Jamario: as much as people on this site have aired their grievances against you, I thought you were a player that could be a part of any NBA team. There may have been lapses in focus from time to time, but overall , you were a very very good acquisition first by the Raps, now by Miami.
Please excuse the fact that it might read like a third grader. It’s hard posting on a phone.
Banks has supporters around the L, how else did he come by that contract? His rep is stellar D, good shot but short on skills to run an offense. Paired with Parker the Raps could mimic Portland’s Roy and Blake. Banks could slow down the PGs and let Parker run the O – POs here we come.
Did you get that Jay?
” If you, like a lot of observers, figured Colangelo shipped O’Neal for the summertime salary-cap space – this so he could begin to rebuild the team to entice Chris Bosh, a free agent in 2010, to stick around – Colangelo had news for you. The GM said he would only have about $10 million (U.S.) to spend under the cap this summer, far less than he boasted he would have in 2010 when he defended the off-season deal to acquire O’Neal.
And he’ll only have that kind of spending money – in a summer in which Hedo Turkoglu and Lamar Odom amount to the head of the free-agent class – if he renounces the rights to all the could-be free agents in the Toronto stable, among them Marion, Anthony Parker, Joey Graham and Carlos Delfino. That seems unlikely, since yesterday the GM spoke of the prospect of re-signing most of those guys, of sticking largely with the status quo in which he still has faith.”
yay!! yay!! sigh.
Let’s shoot for 35 wins next year, shall we??
So, if he were to renounce a couple those, how much would he have, and what could he do with it?
“and he’ll only have that kind of spending money..if he renounces the rights to all the could-be free agents..”
—————————-
Why is it that whenever I read khandors posts I get a migraine headache? – by Dylan
—————————-
Maybe you should ask your doctor to assist you with the constricted blood vessels in your brain. They tend to inhibit sound thinking. : )
Maybe you should use the reply button instead of just writing new posts all the time. It’s pretty annoying.
You are still a douche bag.
I just listened to BC’s conference call and he basically called JO a black hole by saying the ball never comes out once you give it to him in the post. He thinks that that affected our rebounding because we just stood around and watched one guy do his thing.
did you hear how BC talked about Marion as a “4-time all-star” with “career averages of 18 & 10″ despite his numbers clearly down. a freakin repeat of this summer with our “6-time allstar” who put up 20-10.
That definitely ringed in my ears, the only difference here is that Marion does not have a history of crazy injuries and his knee isn’t hanging on by a safety pin.
BC’s winging it my friends, hopefully he wings it right. If he had a real plan he would’ve acquired Marion (who is oh so perfect for the Raptors all of a sudden) in the summer. Give him credit though, he’s learning from his mistakes and that’s what your first job is for – learning.
Woke up today hoping this really didn’t happen, but it did.
===
And we should all count our lucky starts that BC picked Toronto as his 1st job after Daddy. FAAAN-TASTIC.
I need a little explanation as to how this move is bringing us closer to the culmination of the 4 year contender plan?
That’s BC’s best quality thus far. He’s willing to eat his screw ups. TJ, Sam Mitchell and now JO – BC’s willing to man up. Just wish there’d be more good decisions and less attempts at quick fixes.
There’s no championship blue print to this team. Just a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants philosophy, and we’re all along for the ride. Weeeeee.
I don’t even know what this talk about “admitting” mistakes and/or “eating” them means. What? Trading players is an admission of something? The record speaks for itself. We can pull out all the (optimist ridden) excuses we want, but fact is they were all concerns not addressed at the start of they year. He doesn’t have to admit anything. Facts are facts.
I simply don’t get how/why people defend this guy. All of this, dating back a few years, is inexcusable. Move after move, as if made on an x box console.
The only blueprint here is “Hope Sells”. Rinse and repeat, BC. Rinse and repeat.
if the problems were being fixed, we wouldn’t have a worse record every year.
What’s so hard to understand? Think about how long Babcock kept throwing Hoffa out there despite the overwhelming evidence that he had no business in the NBA.
First off, how was TJ a mistake?
And are you comparing Hoffa (a rook) to JO (a handicapped vet)?
As Alt said, what are these fixes you are talking about?
Where did I say fixes? Go back and re-read my post and you’ll find the word “attempts”.
And yes, your boy TJ was a mistake. Not long ago you were blowing his horn about how him and the Pacers were tearing up the league and legitimatechampionship contenders. But its now more evident than ever that he is not even a starting calibre PG.
And I am comparing Babcock’s stubborn refusal to acknowledge he screwed up with Hoffa, with BC’s acknowledgment that the JO trade did not work and his subsequent ATTEMPT to fix it.
Yes, we should take console at his “attempts”. Doing you job is now “maning up”. Is that like the guy at the office always looking busy, never getting anything done? Hey, at least he’s here right?
So, TJ was a mistake because of the Pacers record? OK.
I have mentioned TJ twice, maybe 3 times all year. And that was at the start. Not once, during those times did I say anything about championship contending.
Oh and btw… TJ has played more games, and averaged better numbers in less minutes then Jose.
And Jose has proved he is a staring PG? Reeealy?
“Oh and btw… TJ has played more games, and averaged better numbers in less minutes then Jose.”
funny how noone ever mentions that, eat that all you Jose lovers
Just when you think he’s out of excuses, Mr.Magician pulls another one out of his expensive well tailored suit.
Lateral step. Spinning. If you are still here you are still here. Next move is the one for a sign, one way or the other. And, if I can suggest, this one is not as bad as the last. Kinda like we back as close as we gonna get to where we were before that one. Next?
Don’t forget that the $3 million the Heat gave us could BUY a draft pick from a team that has extra over the next few years. I believe New Orleans bought Denver’s extra pick this year because the Nuggets were in a financial crunch. Teams will certainly sell draft picks. Just something to consider.
nah, that’s remotely positive, and we don’t do that around here.
Where did I say fixes? Go back and re-read my post and you’ll find the word “attempts”.
And yes, your boy TJ was a mistake. Not long ago you were blowing his horn about how him and the Pacers were tearing up the league and legitimatechampionship contenders. But its now more evident than ever that he is not even a starting calibre PG.
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Maybe you should use the reply button instead of just writing new posts all the time. It’s pretty annoying. – by Darien
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Thanks for the free advice but I prefer the “regular” comments.
I have yet to see Bryan Colangelo acknowledge that a transaction which he made was a mistake.
If you believe the opposite, then, please go ahead and explain.
Firing Sam after signing him to an extension. Does he have to come out an spell it out in public? Actions speak louder than words.
Baadassssss,
The “you” in my prior comment is not directed towards you.
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There’s no championship blue print to this team. Just a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants philosophy, and we’re all along for the ride. Weeeeee. – by Baadassssss
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Know that:
1. I agree … fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants it is.
2. I am NOT along for the ride.
I’ve read nothing but know it all’s crap on this trade and no game has been played yet.
Here’s my thoughts: I thought moving Bosh was the way to get this thing turned around and put us in good stead looking forward with 2010 looking more like opportunity than threat. Obviously BC or MLSE did not feel that way. Oh well. To those that say BC is winging it, I disagree. He’s sticking to his plan, Bosh, Bargs, José as the core, he’s stuck to that like glue. Even JO was only going to be around for a short period of time, and the essence of the move was to make José the starter, take pressure of BC and Andrea, and he was soon expiring, so he could be moved if he had to be.
The mistake, was not having faith in Bargnani in the offseason, and not firing Sam earlier to get a better understanding of what we had on the Roster. I tend to think the Board may have not been thrilled with axing Sam, and maybe that’s why it was delayed. But given the crux of BC’s vision, that is where the mistake was made. While the idea of healthy JO had us thinking this new look would really help, what we ended up realizing is we just shifted the problem. Now instead of TJ in José’s spot, we had JO in Andrea’s. And so finally we are a step towards addressing our real needs, with this move even though the deviation form the plan was not without cost. We are still, now more then ever, behind Bosh, Andrea and José and now we have another piece of the puzzle, perhaps, in Marion. He’s got a better shot at being our three than JO did.
The three bigs was a log jam, and they did not want to move Andrea back the bench or play him out of position any longer. The choice to make as either we cash in the Bosh chip and blow it up and reload, or we trade JO and try to get the plan back on track. Getting back on track cost us, Moon, and the pick in 2010, if we make the playoffs or a future pick if we don’t make the playoffs and the 2010 second rounder.
JO’s toughness and attitude was great, but that was not BC’s plan, maybe unfortunately. Sticking to JO would have been winging it imo.
I don’t think we are too bad off capwise next year to fill our needs. Give me a raja bell type next year at the 2. You know who are overpaid, the scorers, we don’t need an allstar 2, if Marion has got anything left. We need a gritty guy who can hit an open shot and stop the ball. I think those skills are less sexy, and perhaps cheaper. Heck fill it out with Keyon Dooling and imo, it’s be better than filling it with a more expensive Ben Gordan. We know what we need now, and we’re setting course to get it, even if BC doubted himself and got off track a bit this year.
Flux,
While it’s understood that you like what Ford brings to the table, as a PG, you also know that others do not necessarily share this same appreciation for him.
In the minds of others:
* Trading Ford for Villanueva was a mistake
* Trading Araujo for Humphries was a mistake
* Drafting Bargnani No. 1 [overall] was a mistake
* Re-upping Sam Mitchell was a mistake
* Signing Kapono was a mistake
* Trading 2 draft picks for Delfino was a mistake
* Trading Ford for O’Neal was a mistake
* Including Nesterovic in the trade for O’Neal was a mistake
* Including the flip of 2008 Draft Pick’s [No. 17 for No. 41] in the trade for O’Neal was a mistake
* Buying Out Garbajosa’s contract was a mistake
* Acquiring Solomon was a mistake
* Acquiring Adams was a mistake
* Firing Mitchell in December [8-9] was a mistake
* Trading O’Neal + Moon + a protected future 1st Round Draft Pick for Marion + Banks, prior to the Feb 19 Trade Deadline, is a mistake
Re-shuffling the deck, buying time, artificially manufacturing Fool’S Gold excitement in the fan base, etc., etc., etc., is not the way to show/convince your franchise player – who happens not to be a goto scorer in his own right – that his employer actually has the level of commitment it takes to build a championship calibre team in the NBA around him, and the know-how to develop and then execute a sound Action Plan to make that happen.
In the grand scheme of things, the only item on that list which I think you might disagree with is the part pertaining directly to Mr. Ford.
My point was… considering Ford’s contribution to the team (however fugazi that year was) the trade cannot be called a mistake, of the same proportion at the very least, as the JO trade was. Or a mistake at all for that matter? Has Charlie V been an epically large contributor on his team? (disregarding the needs he would have addressed here)
: ) Yeah, that may be my only quarrel, I am of course bias towards the man.
I’m curious as to who thinks that trading Araujo (not even playing in the NBA) for Kris Humphries (serviceable backup) was a mistake. Could you please provide me with their contact information so I could inform them that they might be afflicted with the disease known as stupidity?
eastcoastrapsfan,
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The mistake, was not having faith in Bargnani in the offseason …
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I agree with that sentiment, 100%.
Dude,
Dave Berri had Andrea as the WORST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE last year. How could anybody expect any sort of meaningful turnaround this year?
Thanks Khan,
I guess 1 line out of 30 ain’t bad,
Baadassssss,
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Firing Sam after signing him to an extension. Does he have to come out an spell it out in public? Actions speak louder than words.
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This is NOT the same thing as acknowledging his initial error in re-upping Mitchell in the first place.
On the contrary … this is compounding one error with another, while not realizing the mistake you made the first time.
You may disagree on BC’s choice of remedy (by arguing the firing Sam compounded the problem instead of providing a viable solution), but how can you deny that firing Sam was an admission that he should not have been re-hired at all?
ecrp,
It’s beneficial to take a positive approach. : )
There were other points in there with which I agreed, as well, but that was by far the most pertinent, IMO.
————
IMO, in the options you outlined before …
#1. Trade Bosh now, or
#2. Trade O’Neal now
you left out two others, which were also quite viable:
#3. Trade Bargnani now
#4. Do nothing of substance now … and take the hit, temporarily
either of which might have been more palatable to me.
I gonna wait for the next one, this one is spinning. And JO is gone.
ecrp, Dave, Scott G, phd, Flux, AltRaps, Raps Fan, Dinosty, Arsenalist, and Realizar [plus untold others who might fit into a similar category of Raptors fans],
Here are 2 questions for you:
If Andrea Bargnani is indeed a Perimeter Big [on Offense] who NEEDS to check a Power-based Big [on Defense] … similar to a player like Bill Laimbeer,
and,
If Chris Bosh is indeed a Center who NEEDS to play in the Mid-Low Post [on Offense] and check the opponent’s Primary Big [whether he's a Power-based or a Perimeter Big is irrelevant] … similar to a player like Bill Russell [or perhaps Dave Cowens, Willis Reed or Jake Sikma]
#1. Do you think they are truly compatible with one another?
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If Jose Calderon is indeed their Starting Point Guard … with Bargnani and Bosh, as the two Bigs …
#2. Do you think a player like Shawn Marion is a “best fit” to go with them at the Small Forward position?
=====================
Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts … should you choose to give them.
ooops … should read as Jack, not Jake. : )
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Dave Berri had Andrea as the WORST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE last year. How could anybody expect any sort of meaningful turnaround this year? – by Statement
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Does David Berri operate based on actual Basketball Acumen or is his stuff statistical-based? [you know, like other Fantasy/Rotisserie "experts", e.g. Rick Kamla]
In my book, a TOP NOTCH General Manager in the NBA is IN FACT supposed to have a healthy does of BASKETBALL ACUMEN in his very fibre.
Dave Berri does statistical analysis which attempts to evaluate players properly in a given season.
C’mon, you watched the games last year, Andrea was horrible.
It’s hard to have faith in horrible.
Also,
It is closeminded/dumb to assume that statistical analysis and “basketball acumen” are mutually exclusive.
Your hard drive needs a reboot I’m guessing.
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You may disagree on BC’s choice of remedy (by arguing the firing Sam compounded the problem instead of providing a viable solution), but how can you deny that firing Sam was an admission that he should not have been re-hired at all? – by Baadassssss
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IMO, if you asked Bryan Colangelo today if he should have re-upped Sam Mitchell when he did … what he will tell you is that,
“Yes, indeed, that was the right thing for me to do at the time.”
And, if you then asked him today if he should have fired Sam Mitchell when he did [on December 2008] … what he will tell you is that,
“Yes, indeed, that was the right thing for me to do at the time.”
There is NO admission of any type of mistake in there.
dumb.
Like I said, actions speak louder than words. Of course he won’t come out and say it.
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Dave Berri does statistical analysis which attempts to evaluate players properly in a given season.
C’mon, you watched the games last year, Andrea was horrible.
It’s hard to have faith in horrible. – by Statement
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I didn’t say that thinking Bargnani was horrible was incorrect.
What I said was that I agreed with ecrp.
The mistake was in not having faith in Bargnani the off-season.
If the Raptors had no faith in Bargnani … then they should have traded him. Period.
If the Raptors had faith in Bargnani … then they SHOULD NOT have obtained Jermaine O’Neal [$21 Million/year].
What Bryan Colangelo did instead was … HEDGE HIS BET, on Bargnani.
I’ve said this before … both, here and elsewhere.
Bryan Colangelo does NOT conduct himself like a Top Flight Pres/GM in the NBA.
Salesman? … Yes, indeed! … but, like Red Auerbach, Jerry West, Jerry Krause, or RC Buford/Gregg Popovich? … Not in the least!
“If the Raptors had no faith in Bargnani … then they should have traded him. Period.”
You mean last offseason…the one where he was completely awful? What should we have expected to get back, Marcus Banks?
Statement,
I did not say that they are mutually exclusive.
On the contrary, in fact.
A person with authentic Basketball Acumen … also has in his/her immediate possession amongst the fastest CPU’s ever created by either God or man … called, A [Cyborg's] Brain for Understanding How the NBA Game Actually Works.
“Does David Berri operate based on actual Basketball Acumen OR is his stuff statistical-based?”
That is you bud,
That sounds like you are saying that they are mutually exclusive.
Like I’ve said before, the hard drive needs a reboot
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You mean last offseason…the one where he was completely awful? What should we have expected to get back, Marcus Banks? – Statement
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Is that what you think Andrea Bargnani was “worth” last summer, as the 2006 No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick? [Marcus Banks? or, perhaps, Rodney Carney?]
Cyborgs do not understand sarcasm,
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I’m curious as to who thinks that trading Araujo (not even playing in the NBA) for Kris Humphries (serviceable backup) was a mistake. – by Dylan
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Someone who thinks in a macro rather than a micro way. That’s who.
Too, too funny. : )
Almost as easy as taking candy from a baby.
LOL, LOL, LOL : )
Khan, I gave a hard time looking at specific players I watch all the time in terms of moulds of payers that I haven’t, you know what I mean. I’ve seen enough of Bosh and Bargs, that I don’t need to relate their games to Lambier or anyone else. Are they the best possible combo and do they suit each other better than any other player in the league, probably not. But if both of them are going to get touches and need to get touches for our offense to work, I say their games mesh well in that regard. The only thing better would be perhpas have a not offensive Defenece and rebounding spec, with them and have other offense come from the wing, in Bosh’s case. I don’t think Bargs games is thrown off by another big getting touches as much as Bosh’s is.
I don’t think they trip over each other and I think Bargs opens the floor for CB and when CB gets doubled Andrea is spread out far enough to cause defense problem in terms of recovering. They still have a way to go though, CB can learn to pass sooner, and learn to expect passes of Andrea drives, and Andrea can look to improve his high low feed, and communication.
I think they can play together, but their games do not counter act the weakness of the other. I think that’s where the three comes in, to be the piece to allow them to do what they do and cover the weaknesses.
In tersm of José I think if it was just Bosh, yeah José fits well. Bosh is not surprised and is not caught watching him do his thing, but interms of Bargs and Bosh, I’m not sure José is putting the kind of pressure on the defense to really put pressure on them and make them choose where help will come from.
————————————
“Does David Berri operate based on actual Basketball Acumen OR is his stuff statistical-based?”
That is you bud,
That sounds like you are saying that they are mutually exclusive.
Like I’ve said before, the hard drive needs a reboot – Statement
————————————
Actually … what that asks is a question about the work of David Berri and suggests nothing about one being mutually exclusive with the other.
Nice try though. : )
For example … you or someone else could have easily answered that question in the following way:
David Berri’s work is based on both of those.
But you didn’t do that … did you? : )
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Cyborgs do not understand sarcasm,
—————————–
Are you sure about that? : )
ecrf,
Thanks for your answer.
Dave,
re: #88
At least the Heat still has Dwyane Wade they can count on.
Heading forward from here … IMO, Miami is now in a slightly different boat than Toronto, relative to the expected 2010 Free Agent Bonanza.
i.e. they got rid of Banks; they have Wade; they have Beasley; they have Eric Spoelstra; they have the cache of their 1st NBA Title; they have South Beach; they have Mickey Arison, as their owner; they have Pat Riley, at the helm; etc., etc., etc.
memphis, detroit, oklahoma, atlanta are the teams who have more money to spend than the raps next year.
Khandor is annoying and hijacking an otherwise interesting site…
amen to that
Looking at the Raptors NUMBERS $$$$$$ Simple arithmatic.
The CAP this year is $58.680 mil
The TAX this year is $71.150 mil
The current probability is that the numbers will go down for ’09/10
The RAP’s current is $70.917 mil with Marion/Banks for 13 players
The contracts ’09/10 $46.189 mil for 8 players, JC,AB,JK,CB,KH,NJ,MB,RU
are now in place. Includes Banks.
That leaves ’09/10 $24.961 mil to sign a min of 5 players for 13 min
which will be reduced if the CAP and TAX are reduced. This number also ignores cap holds, and qualifying offers for Graham and Delfino who are RFA’s, but is a maximum to spend for ’09/10 under the TAX.
Those 5 players will be Marion, Parker, Graham, and Voskuhl, Solomon, or replacements for these players.
Robert Archibald & Dylan [etc.],
Which character[s] in this clip best describes you? : )
Khan, Dylan has torched and exposed your tightly spun circle arguments for the fraud that you are…you should pay your respects instead of tossing insults.
…and if Arch is calling you out maybe it’s time to listen.
Then, again … I think I might already know the answer to that specific question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIHXnDdfOgw
well, this sums up khandor.
Actually I believe this does a much better job: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm
lmao
That is the greatest website ever.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm = Me
sorry but you don’t get to characterize yourself
Dylan, Archie, Andiamo & Raptoronto,
I have full confidence in the ability of others who might be so inclined to sift through the rubble in this thread and form their own judgments about who exactly has thrown “verbal” insults at whom, and who has had their torch succesfully extinguished by the other.
It’s Sunday, the sun is shining, and there is joy in the world for those with the intestinal fortitude to make it so.
Y’all have yourselves a terrific day! : )
Actually khandor I can’t speak for raptoronto but I assume he is referring to the other JO-Marion trade thread where I made you look like you just started watching the nba about 5 minutes ago.
Khan, you really don’t get why you are a lightning rod for venomous insults do you? Wow dude, my sympathies (really, no joke).
I really thought you were being an ass just to get a rise out of people, for your personal amusement, but a superiority complex as tightly wound as yours is not a trivial matter. Here’s a link for you…if you don’t see that you need help then an intervention my be your only hope.
http://www.stopdepressiontoday.com/stop-your-inferiority-complex-now.html
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lmao – by Andiamo
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Frequently the fate of one left holding an extinguished torch. : )
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Khan, you really don’t get why you are a lightning rod for venomous insults do you? – by Raptoronto
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You think not?
: ) LOL, LOL : )
You really think not?
Sorry Khan, no more cover ups. If you really knew why people hate you so much you wouldn’t cower and sulk when you get called out for making absurd comments and insulting others.
It’s time to look inside and stop projecting your insecurities on to others…not trying to be funny or condescending; get help!
It’s OK raptoronto khancer is just embarrassed and his way of expressing it is to just continue typing meaningless dribble.