Chris Bosh can’t wait for Kevin Garnett to retireThe end result wasn’t there but the overall effort, team play and the desire to compete was, so you can’t complain too much about a reverse in overtime against the team that’s had our number the last two years. The Raptors get swept in the season series and have lost 7 of 8 to the C**tics. This game was high-drama for 50 of the 53 minutes played. The Raptors commitment to defense was present all evening long and just when you thought they’d led up and allow the C**tics to run them over, they came back with big stops and big scores, all the while playing the game the way it’s supposed to be played: hard, aggressive and going to the hole. In the end we needed a little push from our big players but both Bargnani and Bosh remained silent in overtime, the latter fatally so.
Chris Bosh choked again but we’re so used to it that at this point it doesn’t even register. Don’t worry though, he’ll be back against the Bulls, unless of course Garnett is traded to them by Wednesday. Bosh had an inspiring dunk against Glen Davis at the 9:29 mark of the fourth quarter. Kevin Garnett returned at the 8:11 mark of the fourth quarter which meant that Bosh didn’t score again in the fourth quarter. He was held scoreless in overtime until the :21 mark when he got to the line for two meaningless free throws in a seven point game and ended with the worst +/- of any player at -10. 6-11 for 18 points isn’t a shabby line but the clutch scoring wasn’t there and we again saw him panic when guarded by Garnett. If he can drive past Davis when he’s being played tight, why not even attempt to do the same with Garnett playing tighter? Passing the ball to Will Solomon at the end of the shot clock or to Joey Graham instead isn’t what great players do. Michael Grange had a scout saying that Bosh’s basketball sense is below Charlie V, I think it’s below Roko Ukic.
Will Solomon played the entire first quarter and Roko Ukic played the second. Neither of them shut down Rajan Rondo’s penetration but they were smart enough to sag which forced Rondo to either take the jumper or drive the ball with the defense in place to challenge. Rondo was made to play some defense as Roko gave him a taste of his own medicine by rather easily getting past him as the Celtics were locked in man-to-man coverage. Andrea Bargnani must’ve read the pre-game report which called on him to attack Glen Davis and Scalabrine which he did to the tune of a B+. It would’ve been an A if he was a bit more patient in the post and not executed a couple turnaround jumpers that easily could’ve been drives. I thought he should’ve been the #1 offensive option every time he was on the floor because if there was one matchup to be exploited tonight it was Bargnani’s agility versus their bigs’ lack of mobility. Kevin Garnett was busy with Bosh and only switched on Bargnani late in overtime.
A word about our defense and point-guard play today. Impressive, Roko Ukic and Will Solomon are going to make some dumb, dumb offensive decisions as we saw in overtime and the fourth quarter. Solomon will get burned on defense and is liable to cough it up anytime. Ukic will get rejected half the time he drives to the rim. I accept all this, but I do like the defense they’re playing and how they’re looking to attack. Roko’s drive against Rondo was something to note, Rondo is one of the quickest players in the league and he made him look like a statue by lulling him to sleep and going left. Solomon splitting the trap and going right down the middle of the lane was awesome. I know, I know, I sound like I’m satisfied by mediocrity and you’re probably right but I would rather have reduced offense any day in favor of consistent defense. Jose Calderon, you’re on notice. Shuffling lineups so frequently usually throws the continuity of a unit off but I would experiment the idea of playing Jose and Roko at the same time, if for nothing else then to hide Jose while keeping him in the game as an outside threat.
Giving Bargnani the ball at the top of the key and providing him with options seems like the best way to initiate our offense. He delivered the ball on cuts across the lane (one of them a perfect one-touch to Bosh), sized up his defender and the potential help beautifully and passed out of the drive with good vision. He had the C**tics defense moving their feet which caused enough disruption for other players to be factors. Chris Bosh had it going in the first half too as he knocked down a couple patented 17-footers which made your cringe and clap at the same time. Most of our offense was going towards the rim, the starting five did a good job of being patient and not taking the first shot available, instead choosing to see if Bargnani and Bosh would attract even a soft double and working off of it.
The overall man-defense was good in the first half but we were often leaving shooters open in the corner because we were paying way too much attention to Ray Allen. Those 8 threes are hard to forget but Doc Rivers’ plan was to use him as a decoy as evidenced by his lone shot in the first quarter. Every time Allen had the ball on the strong side, the defense shifted towards him unnecessarily leaving Pierce in single-coverage against Moon. Instead of providing help when needed we were preemptively sending it which cost us as Pierce exploited his matchups tonight. After Allen burned us in Toronto I thought the natural reaction from Triano would be to switch but the Raptors didn’t do much of that at all. Pierce’s crafty head, shoulder, pump, ass, groin and pelvis fakes were too much to handle for Moon, Graham or Parker who were biting on everything. Helping on Allen while sagging on Pierce and not rotation hurt us. Pierce didn’t see a live-dribble double team the entire game and took advantage as he should. Chris Bosh talked about the rotations later and for what its worth, he’s 100% right:
We shot ourselves in the foot tonight. There were a couple of rotations that we made mistakes on. We gave up a couple of layups and on one we left the hottest guy on the court, Paul Pierce, wide open. Out of everybody, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen seem to get open at the wrong time. We get so caught up in helping out baseline that we do it too much. And while helping out a teammate is a great thing and I love it, but if we have our guy contained don’t overhelp. We got caught doing that a little bit.
At half time Doc Rivers must have commanded Scalabrine to take those threes he was passing up in the first half because the Celtics opened the third quarter with him hitting two long-distance jumpers to cut the lead from 9 to 4 and it looked like the dreaded third quarter collapse was here. Bargnani’s defense on Scalabrine was bad, he was leaving him without communicating with a teammate about the rotation. Scalabrine literally walked over to the other side of the court and Bargnani just didn’t follow him for whatever reason. Anyway, Moon, Parker and then Bargnani responded with huge jumpers to keep the Celtics at bay but you knew the eventual run was inevitable. Pierce went off for 14 in the quarter as the gutsy Raptors traded punches. The earlier defense wasn’t there but we were making up for it by scoring consistently. Bargnani scored the last five Raptors points giving us a 4 point lead heading into the fourth quarter. We gave up three crucial offensive rebounds in the third quarter which ended up being 5 C**tic points, I got the feel that the lead heading into the fourth needed to be slightly larger.
Rebounding, especially the offensive kind, was becoming a problem. Bosh and Humphries’ boxing out of Davis and Powe was poor by any standards. I thought Voskuhl did a decent job of boxing out their bigs on Sunday as we won the rebounding battle +1 but he never saw the light of day. Last night we got outrebounded 46-37 (13-6) and more importantly gave up 21 second chance points. This along with Pierce waltzing his way into the lane to the tune of a song in his head resulted in a 52-30 PINP drubbing. Expected really, out power-forward plays 16 feet out and our center is perimeter-oriented. Moon who’s been hitting the glass of late had 1 in 23 minutes. Believe it or not he did a phenomenal job on Paul Pierce for about three possessions or so in the first half but that was about it. His grin returned and the bench came calling as Joey got up, but he too was no match for Pierce. This is the NBA and you’re at the mercy of athletic wings of which we have none and unfortunately, can’t defend any either.
The final frame started with two missed jumpers from Chris Bosh and Jason Kapono which were promptly answered by two threes from Eddie House and Gabe Pruitt. The lead we had worked so hard to protect the entire third quarter was gone in 60 seconds, literally. Chris Bosh then responded with a three point play against Glen Davis which I alluded to earlier and then may as well have caught the early charter home. Then the weirdest and most crucial stretch of the game happened, the Raptors didn’t score for a full 6 minutes and 16 seconds. Here’s our offensive stretch:
7:46 Jason Kapono misses 24-foot three point jumper 84-82 7:16 Roko Ukic misses layup 84-82 6:48 Roko Ukic misses 6-foot jumper 84-84 6:09 Joey Graham misses layup 84-84 5:31 Andrea Bargnani misses layup 84-84 4:56 Anthony Parker misses 19-foot jumper 84-84 4:35 Kevin Garnett blocks Chris Bosh's layup 84-84 3:40 Andrea Bargnani misses 26-foot three point jumper 84-86 2:51 Anthony Parker misses 24-foot three point jumper 84-88 1:55 Joey Graham makes free throw 1 of 2 85-90
The C**tics went from -2 to +6 in this stretch as the Rapors failed to score on 9 straight possessions, 6 of which the C**tics themselves didn’t score on thus. Blown opportunity indeed. Will Solomon taking a horrible three but making it combined with Pierce missing a big FT and two jumpers set the stage for Andrea Bargnani’s heroics. The play coming out of the timeout was a horrible one, it was basically a half-hearted screen for Parker allowing him to launch a 24-foot three which he obviously missed. Bosh managed to fight for the rebound and it fell to Kapono who passed it up to Bargnani. The ensuing three would’ve been the stuff of legends if we would’ve won. It reminded me of Vince Carter’s three at the Fleet Center (sigh, those were the days). Nerves of steel by Bargnani.
Having Kapono on the floor to start overtime made me nervous and those fears were realized as our wings left Pierce open for two threes. We were once again caught overplaying the strong-side with Ray Allen as we had done all game long. Game over.
Just like Allen had killed us on Sunday, Pierce killed us today. That’s the C**tics for you, too much talent to contend with. Hey, do you like to puke? If so, Garnett gushing over Pierce should help:
I’ll be Batman. I’ll be Robin. I’ll be anybody you want me to be. I’ll be the garbage man. But this is Clark Kent right here.
I can’t stand these *&^%$.
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90 Raps
“Kevin Garnett returned at the 8:11 mark of the fourth quarter which meant that Bosh didn’t score again in the fourth quarter.”
You don’t get it man. Our superstar MVP was a DECOY. That’s why we were able to push it to OT.
That was a fun game, a competitive game. Very enjoyable to watch.
You know what I have noticed everyone here is just shooting out negative emotions..!!!! No wonder we are losing…. Can we all start a trend where we not expect the Raptors to lose but see them win every game… This is what Phil Jackson does every night when the Lakers play…
The Meditate and visualize the game and the end and the feeling of winning. Can we as fans try this experiment??
And when is JO coming bacK???
Can we please have some more comments about why Joey Graham should be playing (outside we have no other choice) and why he is such a beast? Also please explain how he can not make a lay up (0 for 4 yesterday)?
Yes he drives me crazy….
Raptors are a legitimate 16-23 team and it can’t be said that they were unlucky and should have a .500 record if things had gone their way. Perhaps the remainder of the season will be kinder to the Raps, but I am not holding my breath for that last playoff spot.
Bosh must be suffering professionally, because losing exposes his weaknesses and diminishes his market value as a player. His agent must be praying that Bosh gets traded to a playoff team so he can look good and come the 2010 bazaar sale, he will command Million$$$$ more. Remember, it’s a business …..
For raptors fans you guys are really negative towards this team. This whole article had nothing but negative connotations. They took it to the celtics, the DEFENDING CHAMPIONS, the WHOLE game. They played as solid D as you can play against one of the best and most intimidating teams in the league. This is easily one of the best games they’ve played this season. They went blow for blow almost the entire game. Granted, they choked in the middle of that 4th quarter but it’s not like they didn’t try. If you look at that play by play 6 out of those 9 possessions were layup attempts. They just didn’t fall. Usually, a road team would completely collapse after that and call it a game. But they still clawed back and took it to OT.
I’ve been reading articles on this site for a little while now and what I’ve noticed is that when they lose the writers bash them. And when they win, you still try to spin it and give it a negative feel. I’m with Albert’s comment. If you’re a true fan, you don’t cheer them while still expecting them to lose. Look at the Thunder, their fans cheer their hearts out at home games even with that horrible record. When the fan base is negative, the team feels it and it affects their confidence. Remember that home game before they went on the 6 game trip? They got booed out of town. Granted they’re underachieving but a true fan does not boo them out of town. A true fan cheers them on. A true fan cheers win or lose. You guys are writing articles for raptors fans but you’re not really helping the cause. I’m not saying keep it rosy. I’m saying show some real support win or lose.
Rant of the Month!! :D
Guess you didn’t read the Alice Fine post. We’re not ALL negative, though that’s what many of our readers seem to want.
At least we tried. this team has really grown under Jay.
If they put together the same collective effort shown from yesterday night in and night out for the rest of the seaon we should be fine.
Yeah we went on a drought and coulnd’t seal the victory but i felt the intensity. no need for calderon to come back because will and roko are doing a fantanstic job.
I like our team. If Jo can come off the bench everything will be fine.
if Will and Roko can show consistency then we can trade Jose.
A lot of team would like to have him and we can use him to get the swingman/perimeter D we need.
what do you think?
——————-
re: If he can drive past Davis when he’s being played tight, why not even attempt to do the same with Garnett playing tighter?
——————-
If you look closely at that play vs Davis, you will see him swipe at the ball with his right hand while Bosh is holding it in a low position. This is the action by Davis that Bosh takes advantage of properly to sweep baseline and layback dunk on him.
Conversely, if you look at the way in which Garnett defends Bosh when the ball is already in CB4’s possession it is entirely different.
Elite level basketball is a lot like playing billiards … i.e. it’s not just what you make that counts but, also, what you leave on the table for your opponent when it’s his/her turn to play.
Safe to say that Big Baby Davis leaves A LOT on the table and KG does not … when it comes to Christopher Bosh. : )
——————
It’s a simple and an intricate game at the same time, and you’ve got to know what to look for if you’re going to analyse/understand it properly.
Victor,
Last seson’s team went into Boston and won.
This season’s current team went into Boston and lost.
Dems the simple facts.
What…no mention of not getting the ball in-bounds and the subsequent horrible play call for AP to take an ill-advised three?? If that were Sam Mitchell, you would have crucified him.
Victor, I completely agree with your points. Bring the priss off the bench and see what Jose’s value is on the market. No harm in asking. Will and Roko are far from being a final answer, but they can plug a hole.
Do you think this will work?
1. Soloman, Ukic
2. Calderon, Parker, Kapono
3. Moon, Graham, Parker
4. Bosh, JO , Hump
5, Bargs, Hump, Voshkul, Jawai
Since Calderon can’t play D on the pg position he might be a lot more effective on the SG position. Smitch did this last year with TJ and Jose. It will work a lot better with Will because both Jose and Will can shoot. Plus i do see Ukic as the future so by doing this it won’t stall his development.
Jo off the bench will eat opposing teams bench. Plus he will tear apart opposing teams PF. Better for CB4.
Changes:
Calderon SG
JO off the bench and play PF
Not Perm. Just want to try this out because it won’t put stress on Caldy’s hamstring and slow Roko develop. losing on D to SG’s is better than PG’s IMO because its better for countering the drive and dish plays that killed us last night.
I didn’t mind the play for AP’s 3 at the end of the 4th. The Celtics knew we need a three, AP is the most unclutch shooter on our team but he can get a shot off, and the only way we can get an open 3 is in a scramble situation. This was the best option I think.
Jack Armstrong mentioned this, I was suprised Chris never sweeps across Garnett’s face, giving him an elbow to the face, sure it would be an offensive foul, but he would let garnett know, he needs his space. Maybe break a nose! lol
Also there is know way Garnett is 6′11, he is way too long.
Graham and Ukic need much more minutes, I feel both of them can be role players on a championship team and we need to let them get comfortable and go through some growing pains. Eventually they may be able to grow into our very own Sasha and Luke Walton. The Lakers kept most of their young guys even though they weren’t very good at first, especially sasha.
I agree that Bargs should have been the first option down the stretch. Good analysis.
It also looked like Bosh has completely gassed down the stretch.
Hmm, could Calderon play the 2, I have no idea. But add me too – Calderon should leave and JO off the floor or leave also. The BB is right there though, and the team (without Calderon) is rallying. Fine, if we aren’t as good as last year so be it who cares, it is what it is. But at least we are on the upswing. Now, if they can just resist further blunders like Sunday.
Skimming through the comments … no mention of Boston’s unsportsmanlike last second dunk? Really pissed me off. Loved the TO call by Triano.
Now that Bargs is good, the Raps are fun to watch again.
Yeah, that bounce pass dunk at the end was bush league bad sportsmanship.
They should have just held on to the ball and run the clock out, but instead they chose to be classless assholes.
If they’re not waving their fingers and clapping in your face or practicing their golf swings, they’re ally-oop dunking on you when the game is over. These guys are bush.
and their goddamn fans boo when we called the timeout. If they want to rub it in, we’ll play till the final whistle. I like the timeout by Jay, shows we will never give up.
We should not trade Calderon, Ukic is a good project but he’s not a starter right now. Solomon in not the answer either at the one. BC bring Solomon to be a back up PG in case Ukic doesn’t develope quickly but as Roko has been playing, I see him as a back up and Solomon as the third option, but he’s not a starter. And Calderon playing at SG is just crazy, he’s one of the league leaders in assists and one of the few PG left with a passing first mentallity. He’s nowhere near of a scoring guard, he’s a passer and a playmaker, a terrific one.
About Kapono, I don’t know why, but he’s always looking for his option first he’s just playing like a selfish player that wants his numbers over the team’s victory. I don’t want a guy like that in Toronto.
About the last shot, even tough Bargs has the hot hand right now, remember how many times AP saved the game with a last second shot (remember his shot against the raptors in the preseason). He’s just a very clutch player and I liked the fact he took that last shot even tough it didn’t went inn
Calderon produces high assists to turnover ratios and can shoot really well we all know that. but have you noticed most of his plays are from top of the arc. he doesn’t have that speed to drive like i saw last year. i really think he’s a good player and because of his stats and what he can do his value is really high. Were almost half way through the season and calderon hasn’t really impacted the team in terms of team play. he also gets so abused by other point guards it causes the team d to collaspe which is really the reason we breakdown. so why not give him a shot at SG? he will still get his assist since it will be so good to run the PnR with bosh plus he can nail his shots. Like i said not permenant just try it out see how it goes.
It is a good idea, but remember, if you run PNR will Calderon and Bosh/Bargs and you have Ukic as the PG, then the defenders can pressure the strong side and when Caldron is forced to swing the ball to the weak side, Ukic’s man will come to help from the weak side, leaving Ukic to take the open shot. Not necessarily our best option.
See that, Arse? AP is a clutch player. Shows what you know.
Jose is a complete liability on defense. Sure his 13 & 8.5 look good on paper but he has to drop 20 & 10 just to make up for what he’s giving up defensively! Scrubs are having career nights against the Raptors thanks in part to Jose’s matador defense. Don’t let his high assist numbers fool you either. This guy NEVER takes chances to get this team easy buckets like real PGs do, which is why the Raptors are dead last in the NBA in fast break points. OVER-RATED!
Wow. This entire time I’ve had a typo on my own name. Go me.
http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/teams/raptors/rgi6-090112-celticsgi6.asx
check the 2:14 mark of the video for a garnett double gut punch to hump….fuck i hate the celtics….we have way to many pussies on this team.bosh is their leader.
This drove me nuts too. No T? Not even a foul call? No retaliation? Everyone in the L is so shitpants scared of Garnett and I don’t know why. He needs to be laid on his ass in a bad way.
I don’t get why some of you are saying there’s negativity in this post. This is a heavy dose of realism. Pointing out Bosh’s fourth quarter and OT stats is just reality. For the guy who made the “decoy” argument, I would actually be somewhat inclined to believed that if Bosh ever saw a live-dribble double-team.
We had a chance to put this game away with the score tied at 84-84 and came up empty on 9 straight possessions. All you can ask for is a chance to beat the Celtics late in the fourth, we got that and blew it.
@lost: I was thinking about JC at the two but you’re just robbing Peter to pay Paul. He gets exploited off the bounce at SG and will get torn apart in the post, the only sense in even trying that experiment would be if our post-help is better than our perimeter-help which it isn’t. Also, the strongest area of Calderon’s game might be how he finds people on the perimeter from the perimeter and doesn’t turn the ball over, by taking the ball out of his hands you’d be taking that away too.
I think our record indicates exactly how good of a team we are. As someone already said, there are no shoulda, coulda, woulda’s here. This is what we are.
Yes Arsenalist I agree. Calderon cannot defend the strong SG’s of the league, imagine Vincent Lamar Carter taking Ocho in the post! Also, see my response to Victor for an additional problem playing PNR with Jose at the SG position.
Just trying to utilize Jose somehow without disrupting the chemistry. would you rather have VC blow by jose tough 2 with interior help? or a open look three caused by opposing pg’s drive and dish.
i wouldnt try it on teams with good SGS. i think we should test it out against OKC.
Nash TO T.dot check that out!
Victor, it is definitely worth a try, and something I would like to see. Not trying to be overly negative, just pointing out the flip side. But with three average guards, and Kapono being utterly useless, I think it is worth entertaining.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2806~2010~3249~635~2166~592&teams=21~21~21~21~28~28&te=&cash=
This is the lastest rumour…
This trade I would do in a second. Ukic could really benefit from Nash.
The other trade scenario that is posted in the RR Latest Articles includes Bargs and Lopez, but it would be a huge mistake to trade Bargs right now.
if we did that trade. we would need to trade JO as well then.
to get wing players… cuz all we have left after that trade is graham and barbosa. LOL BRING BACK DELFINO TIME
Why would Phoenix do that?
what everyone is failing to mention is that triano made the same bonehead decision he made against the bucks, only in this game he did it twice!! he took out roko for will in the fourth and then started him in ot!! im not hating on will because hes been fine recently but hes not a point guard and completely fucked us in OT re; his turnover, lack of passing ability and his shitty d on rondo. roko comes in and gets 4 points in 20 seconds.. also that play call for parkers dribbling cross court fade away 3 with 14 seconds left was more”bush league” than anything rondo did..
everyone is loving jt right now for some reason and i dont get it. his decision making lost us this game. he never gets bargs the ball in the fourth, he continues to feed the black whole that is bosh against kg and hes a repeat offender on the same mistakes.
we shouldve won this game, instead were just sitting around talking about bush league bullshit and trying to be positive..
go raps??
I don’t care how much s@#t the Celtics talk, I am angry about how our “captain” of the team allows himself to get bullied by a poser like Garnett, and also by elite teams. Triano is a fool like Mitchell, but at least it looks like there’s something different to the team (very trivial), prolly not, just a different body and same mind. There’s still no “identity” to this team, the only thing you can have now is effort and a season that looks like we are not tanking by much. Win or lose, it looks about now on who is the “guy who can deliver under pressure”, “runs this team under pressure”, and “who really gives the energy for the team”.
One more thing, is it me or is Bosh making his Youtube videos turning him softer every season. You can make commercials for shoes, but he should be scouting his next games beside making Youtube videos. Bad omen was that he was trying to win the video contest with Baron Davis, and you know what is happening to Baron right now? Ya I’m sure everyone knows about now.
I agree that KG shuts down Bosh, but that’s what a second option is for. Bosh does just as good of a job on Garnett defensively. It’s not like KG goes off against the Raptors, Bosh keeps him in check. The problem is that the Raptors rely on Bosh’s offence a hell of a lot more than the Celtics rely on KG’s.
And that is where Trianos ’style’ is better than Smitch’s. Because the Smitch led offence was entirely centered around CB4, thus any team able to take away that sole option will be able to shut down the Raptors offence. Conversely, Triano is TRYING to create a more balanced offence, he just does not have all of the pieces to do so yet. Saying that Triano is the same as Mitchell is eroneous.
Agreed on the last comment tho, KG is not an offensive force anymore for the Greens, its all on Allen and the chip-munked douche Pierce’s scoring. Does Bosh really keep him in check, how about all those alley-oop dunks? We still have no dribble-drive options on this team for this year, its gonna hurt us until April.
One alley-oop was on Bargs, one was on Hump, and one on Bosh. I think the one on Bosh was in game 2/2 and the other 2 were in game 1/2. But those oops are something Rondo and Garnett look for and get because they are comfortable playing together and watch each others eyes (actually the last one in game 2/2 was an assist from House, not Rajon). When Bosh and Ocho play together they connect for the odd Ooop as well, but nowhere near as often. But overall, YES Bosh keeps Garnett in check, as KG is not a first option due to his skill set (i.e. not being a primanr ball handler). Same is true of Bosh’s skill set, only difference is that WE NEED CB4 on offence a hell of a lot more than the Celtics need KG…but now I’m just getting redundant.
brilllllzz
No one has mentioned the play with 1 second left ? Jack Armstrong caught it ,lets try a la Vince the backdoor to the rim,that almost worked again….the play may not have been exactly like the Nets but pretty dam close…
Yeah, that scared the crap out of me. If Rondo knew where he was on the court when he caught it he would’ve finished it. Reminded me of us looking for TJ Ford in Atlanta, you know, smallest guy on the floor catches the alley-oop.
Yeah, Rondo almost finished the play.
Right after that, I imagined what the fan reaction would have been had he did. (OMFG!!!!!) Super scary.
if rondo got that bucket i stopped watching raps and started watching curling
If I’m doing the trade victor proposed in #29, I am including Matt Barnes in the deal:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2166~1765~592~2806~2010~3249~635&teams=28~28~28~21~21~21~21&te=&cash=
Phoenix:
Jason Kapono
Jose Calderon
Jamario Moon
Anthony Parker
Toronto:
Steven Nash
Leandrinho Barbosa
Matt Barnes
Toronto’s Lineup:
Nash/Ukic
Barbosa/Soloman
Graham/Barnes
Bosh/O’Neal/Hump
Bargs/Voshkul/Jawaii
Then maybe BC could sign another guard/forward to get to the league minimum or make a minor trade, say a pick for a guard/forward. IMO, overall our team would be much better.
Although I am not sure Phoenix would make this trade. What do you all think?
I’m not comparing Jose Calderon to Devin Harris but that looks a lot like repeating Dallas’ mistake. Trade an up and coming point guard for an aging veteran. I think Phoenix would actually make that trade but I’m not sure the Raptors should. If our recent play is any indication of what lies ahead I’d first look at trading O’Neal before shipping Jose.
I think it all depends on what BC’s priorities are. Is it keeping Bosh happy? Winning a playoff round? Staying under luxury tax? Rebuilding and developing whatever little talent we have? There are two many unknowns around the Raptors to take a good guess at what moves will be made next.
No way PHX gives up Nash, Barbossa and Barnes without getting BArgnangi back.
i don’t think the phoenix trade will happen since they are currently rolling. we should have done that trade when nash was really upset with his team when his boys were traded to the Cats. But this is a different scenario compared to the dallas-nj trade last year. dallas’s goal was to win in the playoffs. NJ wants to rebuild, a young core in preparation for 2010. but in our case, both teams would like to achieve more in the playoffs. harris definitely has improved since he is getting the minutes he is’nt getting with dallas. plus he is surrounded by mostly veterans. now in NJ, he is among the team leaders along with VC.
the jason kidd trade did not work because kidd and dirk dont have chemistry. will dirk run and run and catch lobs and throw it down for a slam dunk??? nash and kidd are similar when it comes to making big men better. nash with amare and kidd with kmart (who looked like one of the elite big men in the league back then), RJ and VC. i think nash could do the same with bosh. bosh really needs to gain back his confidence. right now, bargs has been the raps best player. with steve passing bosh open looks for easy dunks, who wouldnt feel good? plus he can help roko improve his play, maybe teach him how to shoot better.
Good points Arse. And I understand the chance you take by shipping out Jose for Nash, but you have to gamble once in a while. Like the O’Neal trade, which probally wasn’t the right trade for us to make at the time. But maybe this is the right trade for us now. We would have Nash for this year and next and I firmly believe Ukic would benefit from that. Not sure he’s gonna turn into a Jose Calderon type player/talent, but if it’s not working then you find a new pg after Nash leaves. Besides Ukic has Nash like tendencies, so who knows? Maybe he would develop nicely.
I really believe that it would be hard to trade JO this year, without getting burned in the process. Although if we made this trade and he came off the bench we would be pretty sick.
But yes, Dallas does look foolish now-how nice is Devin? Dudes playing at an all-star level. One of the best PG’s in the east – too bad he’s in Jersey and not Toronto.
First, Dallas was stupid because of the draft pick they gave up. The reason Harris is flourishing in Jersey is becasue they gave him carte blache to run the offence and take lots of shots and handle the ball all the time. In Dallas this was not the case, as Dirk handles the ball as their first option, while plays for Terry and Stack are the second options. Harris was the 3rd or 4th option. It’s not like he didn’t have those skills in Dallas. He got to the line just as effectively there as well.
Second, anyone that watched Jose in his first year should realize the Roko is light years ahead of where Jose was in IQ and court awareness. Roko will develop offensively when he develops his shot (which Jose took a full season to develop). Roko will be just as deadly in the PNR situations. Also, Roko has a much higher defensive ceiling than Jose. I would not worry about Roko’s development, ESPECIALLY playing under Nash.
Third, you are 100% right about JO. Trading him this year would net us back nothing, so we should wait until the right deal comes along.
Arsenalist,
Agree with the Calderon – Nash trade being a big mistake. Nash is great, but he’s at the end of his career. That kind of trade is one the Leafs would probably make – enough said.
I think BC’s priorities might (or should?) be in this order:
1)Develop our potential (with Bosh, Bargs, Jose & Ukic) and fill in the blanks.
2)Keep Bosh happy by getting that 2 and/or 3, either this year, or next.
3)Win a play-off round, but don’t trade the future for the present.
4)Luxury tax overbite …. but only if it means a difference. I think going into Tax territory has always been an option. But why waste those dollars now, when we could use them next year, or thereafter. MLSE is a business that thinks like Accountants … the people who really run the show. But give them reason to go over — team value is enhanced, public relations benefit … etc. — and they’ll more than likely make the move.
I’ll be honest, I don’t understand this idea of trading Calderon. We all know that eventually for this team to be successful the wing positions are going to need to undergo an overhaul, and once that happens I think you’ll finally start to see Calderon’s value. I get the sense that most fans want Calderon to be something that he’s not, but good teams don’t ask their players to play outside of their abilities, they just surround them with complementary players and find a system that allows them to flourish.
So, take this existing Raps team. Subtract JO’s 22 million per season. Add a 10-13 million dollar wing player (Joe Johnson, Caron Butler, Josh Howard, etc etc), add a mid-level wing player that can hit the 3, rebound a bit and plays solid D (Battier, Posey, etc etc), and use the rest on a quality backup big on the bench and/or a backup point (I personally believe Roko will turn out well with playing time).
Suddenly you’ve got yourself one hell of a team, with Calderon’s job being to run the offense, hit the open shot when it’s swung or kicked, and not turn the ball over while your big guns do most of the work in the half court set. Sounds like a perfect role for Calderon, no? The only thing missing from his game when he’s playing this role is the defense, which I’ll gladly admit is lacking but can be covered somewhat by solid defensive wings. The point is that, much like with Bosh, this team just flat out needs more talent for Calderon to be able to play the role that he’s best suited to, and trading him away isn’t going to address that unless you’re bringing back an elite point in return and hoping to plug role players in at the wings.
Well put Stince. Asking Calderon to be effective, while being the ONLY Raptor player on the perimeter to create his own shot is unfair. Especially in crunch time. Well put indeed.
I think that’s the plan, in broad strokes, and it’s not crazy. But the million dollar question is how do you get the missing pieces (one big, the others medium-sized to small)? Apart from rehashing the other deals that might have been done with TJ and Rasho’s expiring contract, you’ve gotta wonder who there is out there to trade with. Chicago might be a good fit for what remains of Jermaine O’Neal and his contract expires at the right time but we don’t get back a wing player unless Paxson decides it was a mistake to sign Deng to an extension – and Paxson’s main failing seems to be an inability to change plans so I don’t see Deng being available. If Chicago wants O’Neal I hope BC holds out for Gooden’s expiring deal (without giving up any of the Raptors’ current expiring ones). Not a lot of quality wings in the 2009 free agent pool but having some space under the cap can’t hurt if the JO experiment comes to an end.
The only other hope for a top-flight wing that I can see is Washington and I think it’s a faint hope. Maybe that team decides to blow things up and Caron Butler and his 3-year contract become available if we take back some other longish deals in exchange for the 2010 cap space that JO represents.
Other than that, you gotta wait until the mythical summer of 2010 at which point Raps fans might want to pray Bargs is capable of taking over for CB4. A more realistic hope than it was a month ago but not sure it pans out.
We’ll see.
Yeah it’s definitely not going to be easy, but the more optimistic view is that you’re starting with what’s harder to find in this league: a center, power forward and point guard whose games complement each other as well as form a great surrounding cast for the one kind of player that the NBA has no shortage of in comparison: athletic wing scorers. Frankly if I’m Joe Johnson I’m loving the idea of a point guard, center and power forward that all keep their defenders honest with the shot and spread the floor, will defer and can make plays themselves for buckets (and here I mean the PnR for Calderon).
I mean we don’t have a wing player that’s even average if you’re going to measure by PER. Really though you’d just have to watch any 5-game stretch to get the picture more clearly than you’d probably like. And in today’s NBA the rules are set up to allow your wings offensive freedom – that’s the NBA game. Without good wing scoring and good wing defense, you’re in serious trouble. Our wings are the equivalent of starting Jason Collins. Anthony Parker’s PER is lower than Roko’s for christ’s sake. Jason Kapono’s too. Oh, and Joey’s. It’ll be tough to find a great wing player, the kind that we need, but just about anything is an upgrade from what we’re getting.
Jason Kapono’s PER is fucking 9.3. The league average is 15.0. This guy is absolutely AWFUL.
Really am perplexed at the anti Calderon posts. Personally I do not think he has been 100% since his first hamstring pull(and possibly going back to the World Bball Championship).
While not the best defender to begin with, try doing it with a bum leg.
With Nash starting do you think our defence at the PG position would get better? Gimme a break. I would not trade Jose straight up for Nash.
You kinda justified the anti-Calderon posts by commenting on his defense. As you said, he’s a poor defender to begin with and never should be on the court unless he’s 100%. I absolutely hate players who play hurt and then end up hurting the team and he’s done exactly that the last two times he’s been injured. I don’t have an appreciation for him “sucking it up” to play either.
I’ve been very surprised at how bad he’s been this season, last year he wasn’t a total liability and teams weren’t going at him which made him look he was on par with TJ Ford on the defensive end. This year he’s been exploited. Maybe it has to do with scouts figuring out that his defense is the first thing to test when playing the Raptors, I don’t know. As somebody already said, he needs to average 20ppg just to offset what he costs us on the other end, you know, kinda like Nash.
Might’ve been me who said JC’s offense isn’t justifying his atrocius defense right now. But I think the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately crowd has hopped off the Bargnani bus and on to Calderon’s.
He’s proven that he’s a quality starting PG. He obviously isn’t 100% and maybe hasn’t been all year. I realize he cost us game 1 against the C’s and I realize he’s having a tough season defensively. But all the “trade Jose Calderon” scenarios are being way overstated. He is not the problem with this team going forward.
Yes Badass, but IF we traded Jose for another point guard who was neither much better or much worse than Jose (like Nash) and in that trade were able to upgrade our team at another position (like added scoring at the wing vis a vis Barbosa) then would it not have to at least be entertained as a possibility? Not that Nash would greatly imrpove the team, but he may help in Roko’s development.
The fact is, there are only so many quality point guards in this league, and Jose would be highly coveted by many teams. We don’t have many trading chips to work with here. And now we have lost one of those chips becasue I don’t see Bargs being traded now, which was not the situation a few weeks ago.
nash makes up for his defensive liability by his offense. he makes quick plays or takes an open shot, and is always on the move. calderon has not been the same. it is also mostly due to his injury. too bad.
Oh yeah – Khandor,
You take one play from the game and break it down and then you treat it like a science. Fact is the same play could play out again immediately with different results. Fail to see your point and judging by your postings you have some intellect.
Wish you would lose your arrogance – its so easy being a Monday Morning Quaterback.
I, for one, am very interested to see just how the Timberwolves make out this evening, at home versus the Miami Heat … with the 1-on-1 match-up many have been waiting for, re: D-Wade vs Rodney Carney. : )
—————
Tinman,
It’s not Monday Morning Quarterbacking when/if you say it in advance, get laughed at by others … and, then, repeat the same, after-the-fact, when you turn out to be right.
At least, not in my book.
Courtesy of my good man, Flux … I call that something else which is entirely different.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=356~2456~3028~615~181~2006&teams=6~6~28~4~28~28&te=&cash=
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2166~1765~592~2806~2010~3249~635&teams=28~28~28~21~21~21~21&te=&cash=
New Toronto Raptors
Nash/Ukic/Soloman
Barbosa/Soloman/Barnes
Howard/Graham/Sefolosha
Bosh/Humpfries
Bargs/Dampier/Voshul/Jawai
how do those deals make sense for teams not from Toronto?
Bull get cap space relief for JO gets rdy for 2010
Mavs want JHo out plus dampier is getting old.
they get Huges and Nocioni to add some scoring..
im just messing around though not likes its going to happen…..
Victor, I don’t think a team will take on JO just to get cap relief right now. His contract is more valuable in the summer and even more valuable at the 2010 trade-deadline.
From all the reports in the last few days, BC appears to be high on Nocioni and Hughes, although a good defender when he wants to be, is overrated as a slasher. And he can’t shoot worth a lick.
Well, the Bulls/Mavs deal makes no sense for the Mavs but might make sense for the Bulls who are looking to get bigger. There was even a rumour about this yesterday or the day before.
Assuming Calderon’s value is inflated, I’d make that deal if I’m Phoenix. I think they’re close to realizing that Nash has taken them about as far as he can. Kinda like Billups and Detroit.
yeah i made these trades according to rumours but…your right i really can’t see mavs giving up JHO for Larry but nocioni provides more offense. oh well…when’s the trade deadline?
Bosh= Pussy! Get a player with some heart on the court, Danny Granger! DANNY DANNY DANNY DANNY!
exactly!!! bosh is softer than pau gasoft!
From today’s BDL Power Rankings …
22. Minnesota Timberwolves — Damper warning! “From 13 consecutive losses to seven victories in their past nine games and a five-game winning streak, the Timberwolves have come a long way in the past 2 1/2 weeks. But there’s one thing they haven’t done: defeated a team with a winning record.” Still, Rodney Carney! [J.E.]
Know that JE Skeets reads this blog from time to time …
LOL, LOL, LOL :-)
FWIW …
Neither Nocioni nor Hughes would help the cause for the Raptors this season, at least, not as much as, say, someone like …
: )
Stince,
It’s a pleasure to read what you have to say about the Raptors, whether I agree with it or not.
So, Calderon is young, and at this early stage in his career he is bad at D – injuries or no. (Though I think it is serviceable if he is healthy). Solet’s trade him…let’s get an aging player with back issues who can’t play D either.
Ya, that makes sense to me. I would LOVE to have Nash here…but not in the role as the saviour of this team for Jose. That he is not. Let’s see if we can get him in 2010 if Ukic doesn’t pan out.
We have JO on the books, who, come next year will start to look very valuable. He is 21 million dollars coming off the books. If the Raps don’t hold onto him, someone will take him off our hands. Colangelo will make his move when he thinks it is right. He might be wrong, of course, he has made his mistakes, but doing it now out of panic is not the key.
Verbatim, you are right that Nash for Calderon STRAIGHT UP is a terrible trade for the Raps. But that is not the situtaion we are currrently debating. The possibility of picking up Barbosa and Barnes is very attractive and should at least be considered. You will never get something for free in sports, we have to give up something too. I’m just saying that it is at least worth thinking about.
Ultimately I think you are right about Jose. I have watched him throughout his entire career with the Raps and he has done nothing but improve in every area of his game and I am confident that his D will get better. For anyone to say that his talent has piqued is just crazy. But we need help on the wings. And we have very little young talent (BTW Barnes and Barbosa still make us younger) and little draft options.
Finally, I agree that waiting and not panicking is important, BUT if we wait to long Bosh may leave and then we are fucked. We may need to bring in a vetran like Nash (even to our detriment) to keep Bosh happy. It’s a fine line though…
i see your point. it makes sense, but i think that JO has to be our trade option along with Kapono…I am not sure Barbosa and Barnes are what we are looking for either. It is a valid thing to consider, but I don’t think it should be dwelt on too long. I doubt it is even a real rumor.
JO forsure is a valuable trading chip, but more valuable near the trade deadline and into next season (the main reason he was picked up, all you BC haters).
Kapono, not so sure about that in terms of his large contract over multiple seasons, although he would flourish in San Antonio, Boston, maybe NO, Cleveland, you know, some team that actually has players who attract double teams to get him open looks.
I know Statement. Every time he puts it on the floor and takes taht runner I want to punch someone.
verbatim: reading through some posts: Nice call on the Boston/Toronto overtime thing.
Well, this viewer is gonna say if they deal Jose, that will be a good move, finally.
Hate to put a damper on things but… Isn’t Jose a BYC this year? Doesn’t that pretty much kill the trade with phx?
ok.. this is some serious frustrated negative BS again, kinda shit that will make you stop visiting this site.
Trade Calderon now ? Correct me if I’m wrong, didnt the whole fanbase in canada want jose to stay just last year?
I repeat again, Raptors problems are not at the PG spot, Calderon is a great offensive PG when healthy. Look at the vaste array of weak links on this team (in the long run): AP, moon, kapono, O’Neal and humphries they can all go in one package..ok maybe moon can stay as a good back-up to a new wing. Solomon is a waive waiting to happen.
I agree, trading Calderon isn’t going to do anything. Unless you’re getting something ridiculous in return there’s no point moving him. His defense sucks but there are far more glaring issues on this team than Jose, most notably wing scoring which is something that’s been a problem for three years now.
I do disagree that he’s a “great offensive PG”. He’s got a long ways to go before he’s called great.
After doing the Phoenix deal, I woud make this trade…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=498~510~615&teams=28~28~14&te=&cash=
Toronto:
Steven Nash
Leandrinho Barbosa
Matt Barnes
Toronto’s Lineup:
Nash/Ukic
Graham/Barbosa/Soloman
Marion/Barnes
Bosh/Hump/Voshkul
Bargs/Magloire/Jawaii
Nice Lineup
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