Too bad that the highlight of yesterday’s game was Joey Graham getting in the face of Carrot Top’s love child. We got down early and never recovered until the C**tics took it easy in the fourth and Kapono, Graham, Moon, Ukic and Bargnani pulled us back. The C**tics promptly returned to thwart any designs we might’ve had of a comeback as Pierce drilled a crucial jumper off a pick – nobody stepped up and the game was over. A split would’ve been nice but realistically speaking, we needed to win the home game for that to happen. We didn’t so we’re left to pick up the pieces and see if we can salvage something in the fourth and final meeting against the most classless bunch in pro sports.
A couple tidbits from yesterday:
Best Lineup: Graham, Kapono, Ukic, Bargnani, Moon. +7 to start the fourth.
Worst Lineup: Bosh, Calderon, Moon, Bargnani, Parker. -8 to start the game.
Stat of the game: Celtics 10-20 3pt shooting. Ray Allen (8-10)
Understatement of the game: ‘He got it going,’ Triano said of Allen
Some plane reading for Triano:
Deal with Rondo. That breeze you felt in the first quarter was Rondo blowing by Calderon. It’s demoralizing when your man scores because you had to help on a beaten teammate, that’s the primary effect Jose has on his teammates. Thankfully, he’s out for tonight’s game so defensively things are already better. Solomon didn’t fare well against Gabe Pruitt or Rondo which leaves us with Roko. He was matched up with Eddie House and managed to keep him in front of him. That alone warrants minutes, see if his lanky 6′5″ frame can bother Rondo, if not then try putting Moon on him. Teams have had success against the C**tics by putting a bigger man on RR, why don’t we follow suit? Dribble penetration lost us the game and is priority #1 for tonight. Rajan Rondo – you can’t stop him, you can only hope to contain him.
Get the ball to Bargnani. That hacking cough you heard was Bosh choking on a Garnett popsicle as he went 5-16. We know he’s going to be a non-factor so let’s look for Bargnani, get him going and hopefully ride him. The Celtics are a terrible matchup for us and the only way we beat them is if somebody explodes for us. Powe, Davis and Carrot Top’s mistake cannot contend with Bargnani if they’re to respect his outside shot. If he makes a few early they’ll be forced to come out and defend thus opening up his drive and maybe even giving us our only double-team and dribble-penetration threat. As for Bosh, he might shoot a similar percentage again but Garnett isn’t shooting 3-16 tonight. Garnett missed wide open jumpers all game long and if Bosh can just make him a non-factor on offense and play him even on the boards he deserve a pat on the back and an extra All-Star vote.
Don’t overplay Allen, contain Pierce. The chances of Ray Allen hitting 8 threes again is low and we need to recognize that. The Raptors will adjust to his big game and probably come up with a switching scheme against him. Leave it to Doc Rivers and his staff to use Allen as a decoy to get Pierce off. Aah, the luxury of having three stars. Best we can do is switch on Ray and if they decide to work off of Pierce, the rotations better be there. Pierce is a terrible matchup and although Moon did okay on him today, asking him to repeat the feat is playing against the odds. Anthony Parker tried to make Ray Allen work early but his jumpers didn’t fall and he drifted off into a Parkeresque 2-12 night. I say let’s try it again and hopefully he sticks them. Let’s face it, they’re the better team and there’s no great plan we can come up with that’ll compensate for our lack of talent, best we can hope is somebody catching fire.
Post-position early. Make Bargnani or Bosh make the entry-pass into the post for each other. The C**tics play man-to-man defense which means if you can flash into the paint and receive a pass, you’ll have single-coverage for long enough to get your shot off. Since our PGs struggle to make entry passes, let the tallest guy on the team pass it to the second tallest guy on the team. If the C**tics front, spin and lob for a layup. Point is that if you can’t establish a post-game by backing your man down from the elbow-in, try something different. Maybe the C**tics even double.
Graham’s strength: He was our best player in the second quarter but didn’t get in the game after halftime until 2:15 of the third. Triano pulled a Mitchell there. We saw the Raptors look for Moon in the low-block as a second option at times, he couldn’t finish but you know who can? Yup, Joey. Get him in at the SG, if they put Pierce on him, switch to get Allen on him and then take him to the rim with Joey-like determination. Anything going to the hole is good therefore so is Joey.
And show some common sense. Ray Allen picked up his 5th foul at 7:16 of the fourth quarter and we didn’t bother trying for his 6th. He only scored 9 points after that. After he hit his first four threes, the instructions from that point forward should’ve been to switch any screen involving him yet we got caught trailing. Bosh and his 6-second long dance with the ball is killing us, we know he doesn’t have the basketball sense to read defenses and react accordingly but the least he could do is do whatever he’s planning on doing within the first two seconds. No need for the suspense. Jamario Moon should either take that three in rhythm or swing it to the left for Bargnani who made his last one. Rule of thumb is that as soon as you hesitate give the ball up because your chances of making that shot just fell drastically. Just for kicks here’s Jamario Moon’s NBA Hotspot to date:
Finally, how about some pride. This team’s beaten you three times already and if there’s an ounce of dignity or self-respect in the Raptors they’ll play 48 hard minutes regardless of the score. Last year we won the fourth and final against them on their home floor, cheers to that.
87 Raps
We need t.j ford back simple as that. Calderon is amazing, the american broadcasters praise him.. But we all know calderon is not the right fit for this team.. Neither is he for pacers, calderon can excel in a halfcourt offense that we for a reason just cannot do.. And if we do.. We run our plays soo slow.. Its always an obvious move.. And why the hell doesnt moon get that alley pass or that pass when he cuts.. I mean.. We always see him do lil girly hope and put his hand and stop for a good second.. Just comes to show … the plays that we do run for the wing players are not executed accordingly thanks to our brilliant play at the point. Sure hes hurt, but was he any better on defense prior to his injury? Nope.. Loll I like his game.. Im not hating, but truth be said.. Our offense should not have guys standing for seconds and doin the same play which the opposing team knows !! Jose needs to be a leader as a pointgaurd.. He is not a leader yet.. Just cause he hands out water bottles and gatorade at halftime doesnt mean sh*t. Lol he needs to do the right thing even if triano might freak out.. Like whats triano gonna do? Bring jose off the bench cuz he makes his own decisions on the court? Cp3/deron/kidd/even nash/nelson/felton/stuckey/fisher&farmar/alston/ridnour/andre miller.. All are told set plays.. They all have coaches who want it done there way.. But you cannot listen to instructions 110% of the time on offense.. Thats just not right.. When jose beat celtics last year single handedly in the last minute or two.. Did sam tell him “jose, its all you baby.. Take it to the rack and do a layup dont kick it out”.. No.. He realized he had no option and read the d.. And did what he thot was right..we need him to get mentally set and comfortable.. Somethings wrong with him.. Shit this is long.. Lol im outtt.. Plz tell me.. Some fans in canada agree with what I said.. Partially atleast.
sorry for the typo’s, its 2:00 am right now. loll
ps; moon needs to realize.. hes not a defensive ACE as the Americans say, hes just an OKAY player with NICE DEFENSIVE abilities, he is not a bruce bowen.. who steals, harrases other players and just hits WIDE OPEN 3’s.. MOON cannot hit three’s.. we need to setup a deal for Bargs/Jose/moon or kapono.. and B.C wont just sit back and relax.. he wants to win even tho he did other ppl a FAVOUR by selecting a FELLOW italian by the name of EL MAGOO loll IM TELLING YOU GUYS.. ITS A F*CKIN CONSIPIRACY.. which looks GOOD at times like this past week.. but on other days.. Bargs is a CONSPIRACY !!!! look into the connection guys..
Of Course Moon isn’t Bruce Bowen, he would need to place his foot under the shooters in order to be Bruce Bowen.
Totally agree.
If there was any justice in the world, tomorrow’s game would start with
Ukic
Joey
Moon
Bosh
Bargs…
But it won’t.
Here’s what i don’t get. Last year when the cunty celtics were put together, I saw that they had two problems:
1. They had little depth
2. They had not many great shooters outside of Allen (pierce is an okay shooter, but is much more dangerous when he drives inside.)
I preached on message boards and anywhere people would listen to simply make Garnett shoot 18 footers like everyone else does to Chris and stick tight to the shooters (provide shadow help/hedge to discourage driving). And, if he wants to post up? Let him! He’s not winning the damn game that way because he’s not a post player. Especially against Chris he ain’t doing sh*tall because of Chris’ length. Not only that, it makes Garnett’s overated ass work (and maybe draws some offensive fouls.) Do not let Allen shoot threes. Chase him off the line.
Play off Rondo when necessary to discourage driving and force perimiter passes while the shotclock runs off.
Rondo runs around? Let him. Let that bitch run baseline. No one should come to help until he is attempting the layup–if then. See if he can score 40. No parralel passes allowed!
Garnett is the outlet off of Pierce and Allen traps? Let him have it. The defences goal should be to force Garnett and Rondo to be the offence. Keep tight tabs on Pierce and Allen and force them to give the ball up around the perimiter. Front if Garnett moves to post (and watch for the lob–take a foul if necessary). So, who is left?
Rondo and fucking Scalaloser/Dogface (Perkins).Rotate to scalaloser and watch Rondo play with himself until the shotclock goes off.
This also has the added benefit of forcing scrubeenies like Davis and Powe to shoot rather than get wide open layup attempts at the rim because the defence is all tucked in and sagged off.
Why the f*ck it took two f*cking seasons to figure this out I’ll never know.
Also, on offence. What the c*nty celtics do defensively is so f*cking obvious I could die.
They protect the paint at all costs because they are a small team that can’t afford fouls to its stars. So, it’s all collapse and recover to the paint–they will accept ball swung three but you must make the extra pass.
However, all that swtching they do has a negative. At the end of plays, garnett is often at the top of the key contesting or helping out on the weak side. Any late cut in the heart of their d after they switch is basically a layup or a foul, as long as you don’t pussy out or try to pumpfake yourself into oblivion. Its usually Pierce or a small who has rotated down to help, so its a clear mismatch almost all the time.
So..recipe for success:
1. Take your time on offence–make a late cut as often as possible of an iso setup move (Joey!). Rinse repeat until garnett or celts are forced into a zone.
2. Make Pierce and Allen give the ball up as much as possible. Force garnett or Rondo to shoot as often as possible. Front the post on their cutters. Allow no parralel passes (foul if necessary).
3. Don’t f*ck up. Most of the time half of the c*tics offence is on the defensive side–less turnovers mean less points for them and more half court grinding as well. No half-assed passes (Kapono!, Solomon!) and sharp, strong cuts to the hoop. Chris must finish the damn and1s.
Well, that made me feel better to get that out. Anyone agree?
Quality, quality analysis. I agree with everything you are saying. What do you think of this.
What I was thinking in addition to that is to play a big on rondo and almost sag off of him completely. When he is trying a post pass, use the big to front and the primary defender behind, if he tries to pass to allen off a screen, use the big as a hedge. The only other things this big (hump in my opinion) has to do is not let rondo drive sag off his sooo much that it is an invite to shoot the 18 footer. The second thing he must do is always crash the boards. With that does is matches up their two bigs with our three, if we box-out we stand a good chance of grabbing the board.
My proposed line-up would be:
pg: graham
sg: moon
sf: hump
pf: bosh
c: bargs
(i know there is no point guard)
graham would cover pierce, moon would cover allen and hump would cover rondo. I think this might work in theory but I did not watch the game yesterday.
On offense, everything would be inside with alot of post-ups and cutting by the big men. Bargs would play out and would get a three-point shot over a smaller guard or would be fast enough if they put perks on him. The best thing about this system is that there is always going to be an advantegous mis-match for one of our bigs, and we’re not losing anything on offense because I would love if rondo shot forty jumpers for 12+ feet
sorry correction:
we’re not losing anything on DEFENSE because the ideal game plan for me if for rondo to shoot forty jumpers from 12+ feet
fuck the world don’t ask me for shit/
cause everything you gets ya gots ta work hard for it/
Raps just don’t wanna work hard for it, or at it…
Until they do we will continue to be mediocre…
And yes we should start Ukic or Soloman…Jose is just not playing well lately…make him fight for his starting job…we know how that works!
As well I agree that Good Joey needs to start…When O’Neal comes back he should come off the bench…so basically I like your starting lineup…Kap, AP, JO and for the time being Jose off the bench would work out nicely I believe. That woulod leave a pretty good second unit, don’t ya’ll think? I might even flirt with adding Ukic to the starting five at sg, to play along with jose and see how that shit works out…you never know.
and then eventually:
starters:
Jose
Joey
Moon
Bosh
Bargs
Subs: (in no particular order, needs to be assessed during games based on matchups, fouls, etc..)
JO
AP
JKap
Ukic
HumptyHump
Soloman
Jake the Snake
There is deffinelty minutes on the floor for all of these players…jay just needs to play around with the playersa bit…something i am not sure he is willing to do…he seems to be kinda like sam in that regard, he just doesn’t switch guys roles around…good coaches do that shit…tweek the lineups and find thw right one.
Who started at PG for their recent successes? It is what it is.
“if there’s an ounce of dignity or self-respect in the Raptors they’ll play 48 hard minutes regardless of the score.”
HA! What’s the last time you’ve seen that happen?
You can shuffle the lineups anyway you want.. it makes zero difference. There will always be one guy that has a night off (who will eat the blame the next day) and that’s something this team cannot afford. They all need to be on point and do so for 48 minutes. That’s asking for miracles, since even against the Wiz and Grizz they had stretches where they sucked, it’s just that those teams weren’t able to capitalize on it fully and pull out a win.
This team makes me sick. Said it at the start of the season, no excuses this year, but the faithful keep coming up with them. Sickening.
lol
There is a lot of evidence to suggest that this is true. Yesterday’s starting lineup would corroborate this. On the other hand, I have hope that they recognize the BB. We will know soon enough.
I have to admit though, when I see him do the caldy sign after a three, it does not inspire confidence or that he has a clue what it takes.
You know what worries me? What if Solomon outplays Calderon at the backup PG, and Calderon starts coming off the bench? Solomon takes the starting job, BC locks him up for 5+ years and we have the league’s “best backup one-two punch” HAHAHA
Hold me.
I’ll tell you what would be great…trade O’Neal for Stephen Jackson….he has the balls and plays the position that we need. He is fearless, will take over when required.
He can defend, slash and shoot the 3..he can run the offense and he isn’t a fucking pussy….and there are issues in Golden State and they may need to make some moves.
He isn’t the only answer, obviously, but he would change the personality of this wimpy fucking team immediately.
Yea, I know, why would Golden State do that? Cause they are whacky….
..but they do need a big strong slow-down guy down low and Ellis will be coming back soon and Jackson won’t be as needed …we might have to take Adonal Foyle’s contract or something else that’s icky, but it would be worth it.
Rodney Carney … would have come a whole lot cheapper than Stephen Jackson, during this past off-season, when he was available. : )
lol
Foyle is on the Magic’s roster … if I recall correctly.
The level of intelligence strikes a new low in these comments.
Actually suggesting Solomon or Ukic start over Jose – they allow you guys to use coputers at recess?
Listen – a mistake was made in having Jose start yesterday. That mistake was made by our training staaff and ultimately our coach, Jay Triano. By the 5 minute mark in yesterdays game it was clear Jose was not @ 100%. Hamstrings can be nagging and yesterdays start might set him back even more.
Thank you.
It isn’t really that difficult at all …
PG – ? [1. Calderon, 2. Ukic, 3. Parker. 4. Solomon]
OG – Moon
SF – Graham
PF – Bargnani [Humphries]
C – Bosh
————————-
Back-up PG – 1. or 2. or 3. or 4.
Back-up OG – 3. or Kapono
Back-up SF – Moon or Kapono
Back-up PF – Humphries [Bargnani]
Back-up C – O’Neal [or Voskuhl]
It involves the prioritization of:
I. Bargnani’s proper use as a Perimeter Shooter;
II. Team REBOUNDING;
III. Team Defense;
IV. Shared Team Offense;
V. Bosh’s proper use as a Low-Mid Post Player;
VI. Parker’s proper use as a Solid Back-up Player at the PG & OG spots;
VII. Moon & Graham’s proper use as Wing Rebounders/Defenders;
VIII. Humphries proper use as a serviceable Big;
IX. O’Neal’s proper use as a Back-up Center; and,
X. Kapono’s proper use as a Back-up Wing Shooter.
It was told to you much earlier this season.
Problem is some Raptors fans neither “see” nor “hear” too well.
khan: with no credible shooters except Bargnani on the floor to start the game, any team need only clog the paint to shut down that line. Bargnani would be pushed to the 3pt line and opposing SF’s could easily take the role of switching to guard him.
Some nights I think Kapono deserves a start just to give us a threat from outside – but his defence usually outweighs his positive contribution over long stretches of a game. But when I think back to the Orlando playoffs last year, he was the only player who really did it all…
and if Hump starts…well, let’s just say that is one less shooter and Raps big problem of late has been turnovers. Hump should not start.
In my NBA-fueled procrastination I wandered over to blog-a-bull where various posters are having to change their pants over a suggestion the Bulls trade Hughes and Nocioni for O’Neal. Were these guys managing the Bulls they appear to be willing to take O’Neal and Kapono for Hughes, Nocioni and Gooden’s expiring deal. Frankly, this type of deal or one for Marion and filler in Miami strike me as reasonable from both team’s perspectives. I know there are many who hate hypothetical trade talk but this Raptors’ season is withering on the vine. There’s only so much draft shit one can handle.
So if BC is going to deal O’Neal, where does he deal him to? What could Raptors fans expect as a reasonable return?
And nunya, I’d do that Jackson deal in a heartbeat if the Warriors hadn’t just extended him something like 5 years. He will be a hollow shell of himself by the end of his contract.
Team Defense… lol.. team rebounding.. rofl. HA! Khandor has his comedian hat on today. This collection of players, as I was just harping about in the Dinosty post, is not anything that resembles a TEAM. Just a bunch of dudes talking about “we” and then freestyling out there every night, because each on of them think he’s the man. 6 time all star, wannabe MVP, media professed All Star, 3 point champ, bunch of scrubs trying to prove they belong… no alpha order established. COMPLETE FREAKING CHAOS.
Keep shuffling them lineups all you want..it’s like trying to put together a bunch of parts that simply don’t work together. Jamming a square into a circle shape, etc.
lolerz
verbatim,
Those who think that Jamario Moon is a terrible 3PT-shooter and should not have taken that last 3 in yesterday’s game … are wrong.
Take a close look at the NBAhotspots diagram for his shooting this season which is now posted on this site.
————————–
It is a complete falsehood to propogate the notion that an elite level NBA team NEEDS to have more than 2 good perimeter shooters in its starting line-up.
If the Raptors were to start:
Calderon + Moon + Graham + Bargnani + Bosh
there is more than enough solid perimeter shooting in THAT 5-Man Unit to be effective … as Bargnani & Calderon are very good, while Moon & Graham are both adequate, IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO SHOOT ONLY CERTAIN TYPES OF 3PT SHOTS.
If the Raptors were to start:
Calderon + Moon + Graham + Humphries + Bosh
there would still be enough perimeter shooting in THAT 5-Man Unit to be effective … as Calderon is very good, while Moon & Graham are both adequate, as mentioned above. In conjunction with the additional Rebounding that specific unit would bring to the table, the Raptors would fundamentally remake their team by starting Moon & Graham & Humphries together with Bosh & Calderon AND then bringing their prime offensive players [i.e. Bargnani & Parker & Kapono & O'Neal] off the bench, as need be.
khan: moon is shooting 30.8% (23-76) from 3pt land this season (31.8% for his career). he’s not someone you want taking a big shot at a crucial time. even if he was in that area where he has been shooting 44.4% (which i don’t think he was), i still would rather bargnani/parker/kapono even bosh shoot that three. i’m sure he has hit a few big shots over the last two seasons, but i can’t think of even one instance. doesn’t take a student of the game to see that. don’t mean to be harsh, i just think you are off on this one.
khan: turning Moon and Graham into jumpshooters is exactly the mistake that helps dig toronto into deficits. Can they shoot? Yes. But is the shot Moon’s primary weapon? No. Same with Graham. As for Moon’s shot. Sure as hell it was a mistake. Making the extra pass around the 3 pt line to get a better look is fundamental basketball – something you preach daily. He didn’t see them open, it was a mistake. If he did see them, then he made an error in judgement. Bargnani and Kapono: both more open, no need to rush, both with the hot hand. Fundamentals khan, fundamentals.
I don’t see your starting 5 players, especially without Bargnani, spacing the floor out well against other team’s starting 5’s. Graham is good energy player and does well coming off the bench. For this reason only I don’t think he should start. He does a good job of playing against other team’s backups who are usually too slow to keep up with him. They may do well in the short term, but they simply are not a starting unit in the league – they may have the energy, but not the skill. You may disagree, of course.
verbatim,
As a simple point of comparison …
e.g.
TORONTO – Calderon + Moon + Graham + Humphries + Bosh
PORTLAND – Blake + Roy + Batum + Aldridge + Oden
where do you see the Blazers with a markedly better perimeter shooter than the Raptors?
the blazers have Roy. He can shoot whenever he feels like it. The rest of the team relies on spacing the floor out for him. If either Moon or Graham were Roy, I would completely agree with you. But they aren’t: need i say that?
Not to mention that Oden is worth having on the floor over Hump for a number of defensive reasons. Only he is a very unselfish offensive player, and allows Aldridge to do his thing, and worries about cleaning up after him. Same cannot be said about HO.
Here is Dr. Khandors line-up suggestion from a few weeks ago…oh, btw he just happened to change three of his starters, but since some Raptors fans neither “see” nor “hear” too well I guess he expected us to miss that little discrepancy.
Khandor Said:
“Given what Sam likes about the current roster of players, Raps should now be playing with the following rotation:
1st Unit
1 Calderon
2 Parker
3 Moon
4 Hump [Big #3]
5 Bosh [Big #1]
—————
2nd Unit
1 Solomon
2 Kapono
3 Graham
4 Bargnani [Big #2]
5 O’Neal [Big #4]”
Typical smoke and mirrors.
Raptoronto,
“Given what Sam likes about the current roster of players, Raps should now be playing with the following rotation:”
Maybe you don’t understand what those 4 words mean? : )
LOL
…and Carney is our savoir but he has only had two (yes 2) decent games all year on a terrible team.
Here are Carney’s (yes, the guy Khan wanted to trade straight up for TJ) 2008/2009 stats compared to our own sub-par 3’s who we love to hate.
G Min FG% FT%
Carney 26 12:05 42.2 60
Graham 35 17:48 47.9 83.3
Moon 37 24:18 45.8 82
Reb. Asts Stls Blk PF PPG
Carney 1.4 0.2 0.6 0.4 0.8 4.4
Graham 3.4 0.6 0.4 0.1 2.3 6.6
Moon 4.5 1.2 1.2 0.9 1.6 7.1
Here are my guesses on what those four words mean:
1. You are a mind reader.
2. Sams your buddy and he told you how he feels about his players.
3. You always put a little “out clause” in ALL your posts that can’t be proven (Sams thoughts, lol) so when they turn out to be ridiculous you can safely change your stance when convenient.
…hmmm, which one would it be?
Just so I get this straight. This “new” line-up suggestion that you supposed told us idiot fans about long ago is now YOUR suggestion based on YOUR expert opinion or is this one based on how Triano or Colangelo think they feel about their players? Or will it depend on what detergent they use to clean the uniforms that day? Or does it depend on which shoe each player puts on first on game day? Careful you might walk into a commitment.
verbatim,
Then, should I take that to mean you believe Roy is a superior perimeter shooter to Calderon, Moon or Graham?
Raptoronto,
Perhaps you should check out Mr. Carney’s recent game logs … the link to which is provided above [I think] … say, since Dec 26 2008, instead of his seasonal “averages”.
: )
Prehaps YOU should check out Carney since Dec 26th against this stellar competition:
DATE OPP STL BLK REB AST PTS
26-Dec @Nyk 1 0 0 0 11
27-Dec Orl 0 0 3 0 11
29-Dec Mem 1 0 3 0 0
30-Dec @Dal 0 0 1 0 4
2-Jan Gsw 0 0 3 1 6
3-Jan @Chi 0 0 2 0 6
6-Jan @Mem 0 0 1 0 2
7-Jan Okc 2 1 4 1 14
10-Jan Mil 0 1 3 1 22
Khan do you feel these stats are excellent and warrant giving Carney (a Timberwolve) a starting spot on a playoff contender? No dancing around just a yes or no.
verbatim,
If you think the Blazers are a poor comparison with the Raptors because of Brandon Roy’s omnipotence [as a scorer/shooter], then, use the Pistons instead:
[e.g. the 5-Man Unit they started vs Denver]
DETROIT – Stuckey + Iverson + Prince + Johnson + Brown
vs
TORONTO – Calderon + Moon + Graham + Humphries + Bosh
Where do you see markedly better perimeter shooters than the Raptors?
[FINAL SCORE: Detroit 93 DENVER 90]
That argument makes no sense logically. You’re basically saying
a) detroit has no lights out shooters
b) toronto has one lights out shooter
c) detroit beat denver in that one particular game
d) (and I assume this is the point you’re trying to make) the raptors, with said lineup with one lights out shooter, should also be able to beat detroit.
that’s non-sensical and completely circular.
khan: regarding Roy. That is a very unfair question. I don’t know Roy’s percentages, but it doesn’t matter. Bottom line is team’s react to his shot as if he will make it every time. He is a threat to shoot and a threat to drive. He commands respect from other team’s defences. Moon and Graham simply do not. Nor should they: they do not have the talent Roy has to drive, pass, shoot or bloody well take a game in his hands (remember the Phoenix game?) The way Roy spaces the floor is something that goes beyond his percentage from the perimiter.
It is evident that this team needs a perimiter player that can slash and shoot. It has been said a million times on this site. But we don’t have Roy on our team. In that absence, I do not think Graham and Moon and Hump together can last for any stretch of time. They have the energy, but not the skill.
Detroit is not the team they used to be mind you.
But these are more comparisons that simply do not fit. Detroit thrives on the defensive end. Sheed is a beast on D, and a threat from most places on the floor. Iverson is faster than anyone. Prince is a better (far better) version of Moon, who is capable on a given night of 20+ points. Detroit is a gritty team. They win by grinding other players. True, less so, before Chauncey left. But I still think Denver, when HEALTHY (remember Melo is out) is a superior team to Detroit.
Stop making comparisons Khan. You chew us out for talking about Dirk and Bargnani. Well, stop think the Raps have the quality of a seasoned Detroit team that knows what it takes to win in this league.
The discuassion theory of who should start PG is all so sweet and exciting given a healthy caldy. But when was the last time there was a healthy caldy with proper lateral capability. Maybe up until the first time he went down this season. Maybe.
Raptoronto,
If it’s commitment you’re looking for … at least, of that sort … then, IMO, you’re a prime example of someone who doesn’t understand yet how the NBA game works.
The outcomes of NBA games are determined by personnel match-ups … individually and collectively, on a possession-by-possession basis, night-in and night-out, relative to a team’s opponent and given the limitations of its own player roster.
I will not hazard a guess at what it is you walk into on daily basis. : )
Raptoronto,
It is always interesting dealing with an individual like you on-line. : )
re: Rodney Carney’s Game Logs, since Dec 26 2008
How the league-wide perception of Mr. Carney is gradually being changed, since Dec 26 2008 … from today’s TrueHoop – First Cup: Monday. : )
ha…although i may not have traded tj straight up for the guy, i liked what i saw out of him. good call on the kid man.
Raps Fan,
Not to worry … even overt harshness need not be a problem in my book. : )
What matters … is if someone is right or wrong.
==========================
Moon’s overall 3PT-shooting percentage simply isn’t relevant in this situation.
————————–
Do you recall what Luc Ridnour’s 3PT-shooting was when he hit those 2 dagger 3’s vs the Raptors in Milwaukee? [30.8%, if I recall correctly]
Difference was that Ridnour hit the ones he took with the game on the line and Moon missed the one he took in that situation last night.
The shot Moon got and took was a clean look at an uncontested 3-ball.
Moon should take that shot every single time … given the:
i. Time
ii. Score
iii. Deficit
iv. Opponent
involved in yesterday’s game, without a shadow of a doubt.
What he SHOULD NOT have done was hesitate momentarily before releasing that specific shot attempt.
Make or miss … is not what determines whether or not a specific shot was a “good” attempt or not … at least, not when the player with the ball in his hands is shooting 30.8% on the season.
he was very open, and i do agree that if someone is open, they should take the shot, but he is a much better shooter inside the arc, i wouldn’t have minded if he took a couple steps in and shot it.
as well, with him being open, the defense was rotating over to him, if he swung the ball to parker or bargnani, who have hit big shots, i would have been better with the play.
i suspect my hatred comes from moon shooting in general, and not in that position.
as far as ridnour, can we not agree that he is a much better shooter then moon? the comparison is a good one, but he does have a history of hitting big shots, albeit not a long one.
i certainly do not want to blame Moon for that loss. Being down 20 was why we lost. Under other circumstances, you can live with that shot. But the fact remains that the D was scrambling to cover him, he had limited time, and should have passed to the better open shooters. It isn’t like this was a HUGE UNFORGIVABLE mistake – he had a good game, and this one mistake, I can live with. I don’t think it was like Solomon jacking two contested J’s in a row…that was BAD. But it was not the best option, and was an error in judgement or a failure to see the floor properly. If, khan, you can’t admit that, then…well, we are fated to disagree.
I respect your basketball sense, and your predictions even when everyone is all over you. But sometimes, maybe sometimes, I might suggest that you stick to things just because others will disagree.
re: Khan do you feel these stats are excellent and warrant giving Carney (a Timberwolve) a starting spot on a playoff contender? No dancing around just a yes or no.
Yes, Rodney Carney is indeed good enough to be a starting Wing on a playoff contender in the NBA … especially as a defensive specialist ala Michael Cooper.
that said: there is a game tonight, and I want the Raps to win. Can they? Probably not. But the pieces are in place to give Boston a hard time. If they do that, and play for the full game, I will be happy. From the other thread: you can’t treat every game like it is game 7. That is true. But if there was 1, all season to do just that, it is this one. I want the Raps to bleed for this W. Anything less is unacceptable.
Go Raps! Prediction: Big Night for Bargnani: 30 pts. Raps go down in OT. (this is probably just my hope mixed with my fear that we can’t beat Boston.)
Raps Fan,
Moon is shooting 3’s at a 30.8% clip, thus far, this season.
The shot that found him was an uncontested 3 from the Right-TOTK, admittedly not one of the spots on the floor from where he is shooting a solid percentage right now.
Regardless … a player who is shooting 30.8% from threesville SHOULD have taken THAT shot yesterday if it was presented to him in that same scenario …
ie. Tor 83, BOS 88 … at the 01:04 mark of the 4th quarter, with 11 seconds left on the shot clock.
Davis was within close-out range of Bargnani [Left-TOTK] and Allen-R was checking Kapono [Right-Corner]. Pierce had abandoned Moon on the perimeter to help in the lane versus the initial drive by Ukic.
The Celtics had decided to help off Moon and force a defensive rotation from one of Rondo, Allen or Davis, with Pierce being responsible for rotating back to the Rotator’s original check if the ball was to go there on the 2nd pass out from the initial help situation …
i.e. Ukic’s pass to Moon and Moon’s pass to Kapono would have been covered by:
1. Pierce’s help on Ukic;
2. Allen’s help on Moon; and,
3. Pierce’s [or Rondo's] help on Kapono;
which would have probably generated a shot-fake-drive by Kapono [vs Pierce or Rondo] and not a 3PT-shot attempt at all, given Kapono’s penchant for this specific move in the face of an on-rushing defender.
The look Moon got was clean. Hopefully, next time, he will knock it down.
==========================
The major problem was what happened on the Celtics ensuing offensive possession when Garnett went to set his High Middle Pick for Pierce:
i. Bosh went to double-team Pierce directly with Moon, on the Right Sideline side of Pierce, instead of going with Garnett initially to Hedge/Show vs Pierce on his drive toward the middle of the floor;
ii. Pierce made a great read on Bosh, and drove middle around Ganett’s Pick;
iii. Kapono stayed home on Allen;
iv. Bosh recovered as best he could to close the gap on Pierce’s drive;
v. Garnett’s Pick was solid;
vi. Pierce hit a CLUTCH pull-up jumpshot.
with the game on the line like it was, does a 30.8% shooter have the kahuna’s to make that sort of shot? ridnour was a star in college, came up in that elite atmosphere that moon, to my knowledge, didn’t. having guys like ridnour/blake take and hit those kinds of shots doesn’t sit as bad with me as having moon doing it.
i expect boston to make those sorts of offensive plays, since i always expect to have the advantage on every single possession.
Raptoronto,
You may not have noticed it, but Khandor was one of the first people to call for O’Neal sitting on the bench to allow Bargnani to develop, when everyone thought that was a crazy idea and that the 6-time all star should without a question be starting. Guess who was right?
Moon has to take that shot. Wide open. Might not of been the Raps ideal situation but has to take that shot. Solomon as well the other night. Wide open. Has to take that shot.
Bill – while I agreed in a previous post that Khandor’s POV might have merit – it still hasn’t played out yet. O’Neal is not being benched – he’s hurt. Lets see him come off the bench and see how the equation works out.
Uh, Bill, Khandor has, since the beginning of the year, strongly stated that Hump should be starting and Bargs should be the first guy off the bench with JO being the fourth big getting 5-10 minutes a game (which essential destorys his trade value). He also repeatly stated that AP should be our back-up point gaurd. Do you agree with this?
Khandor – why don’t you post your comments/suggestions on blogs with more basketball savvy commenter’s? Very curious. You seem to be very careful to not branch out to places like Hoopslife or Raptorblog so we can have a more active debate on your incredible NBA acumen. Why is that?
Also, if you want to get into a personal spitting match (with someone you don’t know) please answer these 4 questions so I can truly gauge your basketball/sports experience against my own (this should be fun):
What is the highest level of basketball you have ever played?
What is the highest level of sport you have ever played?
What is the highest level of basketball you have coached?
What is our level of involvement in organized sport in general?
Score – Celtics 12 .. Ratpors 5
This is one baaaaaaaaaaaad team.
Theyre playing ok now, game is pretty close
khandors a pompous nobody.dont let him get to you.he’s striving for attention he lacked from his parents.
Great 2nd quarter by Raps…Up by 9 over NBA champs at the half(54-45).
Team is just plain outhustling boston. outrebounding, outsmarting, out-everything…I got a tear in my eye…lol
Still, how weakass solomon gets to start over Ukic is mindboggling 2 me…
Watch this fool mess up team’s chemistry in the 3rd:)
It’s one thing to create competition and get best out of a rookie but to not go with the obvious advantage?
It’s gonna come down to how deep of a whole Solomon digs them in the quarter.. I know theyll come back with Ukic at the steering wheel in the 4th but if its 20 pts like yesterday forget it.
Wow that Bosh fella sure is dominant….easy to see why the stupidest fanbase in the NBA thinks he is a superstar MVP…everyone knows the true mark of a franchise player is the ability to look good against rookies and to never play your best against the best teams….
I said it earlier in the post, and so far part of it has come true:
“Go Raps! Prediction: Big Night for Bargnani: 30 pts. Raps go down in OT. (this is probably just my hope mixed with my fear that we can’t beat Boston.)”
I sincerely do hope and am starting to believe the Raps can eke this one out!
GO RAPS!!!
just not enough talent on this team. It’s Bosh and Bargs and a bunch of 9th men right now.
start Roko the rest of the way until Jose comes back.
also, could the announcers stop fellating the Raps’ losing efforts please.
Having to sit through the Boston feed of the game, I can honestly say I’ve never hated a city more than I do right now
too bad…if Kapono hit that three…we can only wonder. Should have given it to Bargnani: maybe he would have reached those 30 pts i called for…lol.
Look, Boston is better than Toronto. Bosh has a VERY tough time dealing with KG one on one. Hell, most people do. I think KG is perfectly matched to Bosh’s offensive abilities. Bosh/Bargnani did a nice job on him tonight though on the other end.
Proud that the team played the way they did. They lost to a good club that wanted it as bad as we did. And don’t give me any bullshit about how pathetic it is to be proud of a loss. Boston is good team, a championship team, and the Raps hung in there. Could they beat Boston in a 7-game series? Hell no. But playing like that, they could certainly beat a few teams in this league other than the top-tier.
gee willikers! let’s build a barn and put on a show! for fuck’s sake..that is typical of the love affair with mediocrity that is Toronto….
Just keep aiming for the middle….
The Celtic stars are also much older than your hero Bosh, have nothing to prove and also played last night…he looked more tired than any of them….
If you call a “nice job” by Bosh on Garnett on the other end having fewer points and fewer rebounds than Garnett, then yes, Bosh did a great job…
KG did not shoot a nice percentage though.
nunya: did you watch a different game than I did? CB4 just got outclassed by KG defensively. Bosh, at this point in time, does not have what it takes to handle Garnett 1 on 1. It would have been nice to see some screen run for Bosh, which I did not see too many of. Garnett is good at fighting through screens though. I never saw Bosh give up though. He chased down every loose ball he could. If we fans look at the Raps through rosy-coloured glasses, I would hate to see what kind of glasses you look through.
I don’t know what you want from these guys. They are not a top-tier team. They went up against the defending champs who wanted it as much as we did. That is BC’s fault, and we need to give him hell until he builds a better team. But the way the guys on the floor played, I couldn’t ask for much more. They played well enough to beat 85% of the teams in this league. It was entertaining and gritty, and I saw a lot of good things from Toronto’s backcourt.
That last paragraph is probably the most intelligent thing out of all these comments.
They played hard and came up short. The Raps are a mediocre team when all their players are healthy. To play this game on the road with two guys sitting out? That’s tough. They came up short, but you can’t accuse them of lack of effort.
Well, I could, in terms of rebounding, but those are mental breakdowns more than physical to me.. I.E. Bosh is mentally soft, it’s not that he doesn’t try.
WE NEED TO BLOW THIS PIECE OF SHIT TEAM UP!!!!!!!
WE NEED TO TANK & GET A HIGH DRAFT PICK!!!!!
WE NEED TO CLEAR UP OUR CAP SPACE!!!!!!!!!
WE NEED TO GET GRITTY & COMPETITIVE PLAYERS THAT DON’T GET INTIMIDATED BY GOOD OPPOSING TEAMS!!!!!!!!
WE NEED TO GET PLAYERS WHO CARE ABOUT WINNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its so sad to see how scared chris is of KG..just sad
KG owns Bosh,why in the sweet fuck do we continue to force the issue.
Sorry,Verbatem,but its a loss and I dont care that it was an overtime loss,and yup !!!I dont care about the “growing experience”….by the time they finally get it I’ll be dead.
Some positives for sure,but at the end of the day,positives might get you the C’s in the first round.
I guess in the standings,beside our L we can say “ya but we feel good !!!”
Wilson: if Raps eked out a win, would you be saying that? Because in this game, a win could have been one possession away.
Most of what you said is true – but it shouldn’t be based on tonight’s game. The Raps came in hungry looking for a win, and nearly got one against a far better and hall of fame team.
Have you been watching the Raptors these past 2 years???
We are NOT a legitimate team!
Even if we had won tonights game it would’ve been a fluke win anyway!!
The fact that this is one of the better games the Raps had played against a decent team this season is a downright shame.
I don’t know how you’re still accepting the “positives” after all those blown double-digit leads and chokejobs.
And to make matters worse the guys play like without any heart or grit.
I can go on and on listing why this team is mediocre but that would be a waste of time.
Bottom line is that they need to dismantle this team.
JO, Kapono and our Jose the Matador all have to go.
Khnador is a pussy bwoy…we a slew dem.
Will Solomon shouldn’t have been playing the late 4th/OT. Watching Ukic undress Rondo thrice was awesome. And if Kapono made that shot, holy mother of god! Should’ve called a timeout there.
re: Khandor – why don’t you post your comments/suggestions on blogs with more basketball savvy commenter’s? Very curious. You seem to be very careful to not branch out to places like Hoopslife or Raptorblog so we can have a more active debate on your incredible NBA acumen. Why is that?
First. It is you who is making an assumption about the quality of basketball analysis found on [i] this site versus [ii] certain others like the two you mentioned. Bias comes in many forms.
Second. In general, I post comments on sites where I have the utmost respect for the operators … e.g. for the hard work they do keeping their site afloat; for their willingness to be open-minded; for their level of integrity; for their prioritization of topics which are of particular interest to me; for the overall quality of their work; etc.
Third. Anyone who wishes to engage in an in-depth dialogue with me directly … to challenge my views on the game, or otherwise … knows exactly where to find me. khandor’s sports blog. Come on down, at any time. : )
re: Also, if you want to get into a personal spitting match (with someone you don’t know) please answer these 4 questions so I can truly gauge your basketball/sports experience against my own (this should be fun):
What is the highest level of basketball you have ever played?
What is the highest level of sport you have ever played?
What is the highest level of basketball you have coached?
What is our level of involvement in organized sport in general?
First. I have zero interest in spitting at YOU.
Second. YOU seem to have some interest in spitting at me.
Third. That’s YOU’RE problem, not mine. : )
Fourth. I have zero interest in YOUR level of basketball/sports experience, in comparison with others.
Fifth. The way that MoneyCarlo and Scott G and Simon, for example, say what they have to say, on this site and elsewhere, it’s apparent that they have a more sophisticated understanding of basketball than many other Raptors fans. What they write and how they write it is enough to tell you that … if you know what to look for in the first place. : )
Sixth. It matters not from where wisdom comes only that it’s accurate.
Have yourself a terrific day! : )
So you wait until the next couple of articles/posts are up to respond…very slick cover for you non-existent basketball acumen.
Khandor, now I understand. Basketball experience and earning ones knowledge of the game of basketball through actually living the experience means nothing to you (I find it hilarious that you have more respect for some journalists than you do for actual NBA executives). This is why I have absolutely no respect for your condescending, I’m always right, you all know nothing, wayward attitude, analysis and criticism of the people who have actually earned the right and respect to make decisions in the NBA (who somehow never seem to see what you state is so obvious…don’t you think that is a bit odd that these guys who make a living off their ability to make the hard decisions to build a successful team don’t ever see what you see?). Not to mention your pompous attitude towards other bloggers on this and other sites, to which you completely disregard, with hollow arrogance, even when you have no idea how much experience they have in living/analyzing the game…keep living in your little bubble world, hope it’s nice and warm.
Raptoronto, you’re talking a lot of shit for no reason. No idea why you’re trying to get all personal here.
Khandor might have a way about him that doesn’t come off right to many people but if you ever do read his game analysis on his site or understand the points in his comments, you would understand that he knows what he’s talking about. Outside the box thinking is rare and the man possesses it, he also happens to be right more often than wrong.
As for your little insult about the visitors to this site being less analytical than those on Raptorblog, well, I beg to differ and say that this site has plenty of commenters that know what they’re talking about. But I don’t have any idea why you would bring that up either. If you want to take khandor into a chatroom, you two should join us in the Live Chat during the game and literally, get a room to sort things out.
Raptoronto,
Individuals like you make such basic mistakes in assuming things about others it is rather comical at times.
My basketball acumen is non-existent? : )
You are certainly free to think that if you wish.
You think that I have more respect for some “journalists” than I do for some NBA Executives like Jerry West, or RC Buford, or Joe Dumars, or Rod Thorn, or Ernie Grunfeld, or Jeff Bower, or Jerry Krause, or Wayne Embry, or Red Auerbach, etc.?
You are certainly free to think that if you wish.
You think that the amount of money someone makes in a job makes them an authority on something … say, the way a prostitute is more of an authentic authority on healthy sexual relations between consenting adults than one half of an elderly couple who just happens to have been happily married for 50 years, because the former earns MORE money from their livelihhod than the latter does living their life each and every day for free within a single committed sexual relationship?
You are certainly free to think that if you wish.
It is always fascinating to me … how it is that an individual like yourself can think that s/he has an omnipotent ability to distinguish accurately what someone else’s intentions are when it comes to writing what that person writes on-line and who it is that’s really being condescending in their words and who, in fact, is not.
Arrogance, like bias, can indeed take many different forms.
——————————–
1. If you think the opinions and ideas expressed on this site are inferior to others which you frequent, as well … Then what’s the reason you are here, in the first place?
2. You know where my blog is located. If you want to have an in-depth discussion with me, regarding YOUR supposed basketball acumen, then, all you’ve got to do is stop by for a while. : )
Have yourself a terrific day!
Arse – really? no reason? Do you read how Khan responds to other peoples posts on this site…on just about EVERY POST he insults someone? The dude was talking down to me and most others from the first time I posted on this site (I have more basketball experieince and first hand knowledge of the game in my pickie finger) yet you defend him…this is not even worth arguing and frankly I’m not sure why I even try to share my thoughts here (must be the coach in me and Flux brought me back).
Saying he is right more than he is wrong is an absolute farce…when you take the outside-of-the-box approach the limited times you are right stand out (and he rides it). It would be fun to watch if he wasn’t so unjustly arrogant and a pompous ass.
C’mon, you know the commentors on this blog are not as seasoned as in other blogs (which is actually not a bad thing as it gets basketball conv’s out to a wider audience and expands the interest in the game) but Khandor feeds off of that with his shock and awe approach which irritates more posters than not.
Good luck to you Ares, I’m actually proud of what you have put together here but this is obviously not where I should be posting and sharing my thoughts (I gave it one more try but alas). Khandor it’s all yours buddy…venture out and share your “wisdom”.
Arse – really? no reason? Do you read how Khan responds to other peoples posts on this site…on just about EVERY POST he insults someone? The dude was talking down to me and most others from the first time I posted on this site (I have more basketball experieince and first hand knowledge of the game in my pickie finger) yet you defend him…this is not even worth arguing and frankly I’m not sure why I even try to share my thoughts here (must be the coach in me and Flux brought me back).
Saying he is right more than he is wrong is an absolute farce…when you take the outside-of-the-box approach the limited times you are right stand out (and he rides it). It would be fun to watch if he wasn’t so unjustly arrogant and a pompous ass.
C’mon, you know the commentors on this blog are not as seasoned as in other blogs (which is actually not a bad thing as it gets basketball conv’s out to a wider audience and expands the interest in the game) but Khandor feeds off of that with his shock and awe approach which irritates more posters than not.
Good luck to you Arse, I’m actually proud of what you have put together here but this is obviously not where I should be posting and sharing my thoughts (I gave it one more try but alas). Khandor it’s all yours buddy…venture out and share your “wisdom”.
Raptoronto,
————————————–
re: (I have more basketball experieince and first hand knowledge of the game in my pickie finger)
————————————–
As I said before …
You are certainly free to think THAT if you wish. Chances are pretty good, however, that your best guess is IN FACT wrong. : )
Any time you’d like to display the extent of your actual “basketball experience and first hand knowledge of the game” … you know exactly where you can find me. All you have to do is drop on by. : )
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