Its official, I need help. Serious, professional, help.
My problem is simple: as bad as this team plays, as horrible as the GM is, and as much as I swore I would never love another bad team after three decades of being a Red Sox fan (pre 2004)…I still get excited when Joey Graham shows flashes of toughness, when Jamario Moon blocks a shot from out of nowhere, when AP hits a fade away 3 from the corner, when CB4 sticks that 19 foot jumper, when JO throws down a 2 handed jam or when Andrea Bargnani dribbles. I know that the likelihood of these moments outlasting the “reality” is poor. More often than not, JO picks up 2 quick fouls, AP misses crucial free throws, Moon thinks he can shoot, Andrea looks lost, and CB4 takes a 3 pointer with a full shot clock in a close game (see Sundays loss to NO- 4th quarter-). And yet, I still love this team…but why?
I imagine that like most Raptors fans, I woke up this morning, unsure about what to expect any night against any team in the league. After all, the last two weeks have shown us many faces of the same beast. If we throw out the first month and a half of the season under Sam Mitchell and just look objectively at the Raptors under Triano, things don’t get any easier to understand. Because, well, first off, even though Mitchell is gone…his record remains. And so the Raptors who started the season 8-9 under Mitchell and have since gone 2-4 under Triano, and still find themselves 10-15 this morning with 7 games left to play before they ring in the New Year. You see the hard part for me is believing that this team can actually win 5 of them and remain in contention for a playoff spot in the Eastern Conference.
I want to believe that this team is still the same team that I pegged to win 50 games and claim the 4 seed in the East this year. And two weeks ago, when the team was 8-7 before traveling out west to get spanked by the Lakers and humiliated in Denver, I wrote a post for Raps Fan and others to calm down, relax, and just believe in their home team. I mean things weren’t that bad. But since then, so much has happened- with the biggest issue being the firing of Mitchell and replacing him with Triano- that only 7 days ago- I took back my earlier blog that called for calm in Raptor nation and instead issued a notice to start panicking NOW!
But I can’t make up my mind as to which team the Raptors really are. I’m torn…between my heart and my eyes. My homerism wants me to believe that this team can still turn it around and win 40 of its remaining 59 games (at a clip of .750) to challenge for the top 4 seeds in the East. But my head tells me that this team will more likely win 25of its remaining games (at a clip closer to the .435 winning percentage it is sporting this season) and find itself in a battle for the 8th seed and more likely than not sitting in the lottery draft instead of the playoffs..
And so here is why I’m torn- because they are NOT winning under Triano. And although the TV and radio guys spin it like this team is getting better under Triano- increasing its focus, changing little things one at a time, etc…..they still are losing games and will continue to loose games at a pretty intense clip up until the all star game. And yet, there are moments where I say… “you know what, that Leo Rautins is right- this is a team on the rise.” And after I put down the bottle and skip my next turn on the hookah, I’m left to wonder- “who are the Raptors of 2008-2009? And better yet, why should I keep believing in this team?
At times, we have been that team that runs and guns and takes top notch teams in the Western Conference like Portland or New Orleans to the brink- with tight defense, good shot selection, and an endless desire to get to the rim offensively and not settle for jump shots. And then, just as quickly as we look like a team on the rebound, we lay an egg for 5-7 minute stretch and let winnable games slip away (see Portland and New Orleans). SO far this season, as I pointed out in my column last week- this team has only won games against inferior opponents. A trend that continued last week when they beat Indiana and NJ (who has been playing over their heads a little bit this year).
So what comes next? Is there going to be a move? Colangelo keeps hinting that something could happen but if he isn’t going to deal Andrea then really what chips does he have to make something happen. Also, two of the best looking trading partners (CHA and PHO) both made big moves last week and well, come on, Jake Voshkul cant be the answer to all of our problems.
Well, all I can do now is get back to schedule to see what comes next.
If we take a look at the remaining games between now and the all star break here is what we see as games we should win and games we should loose.
| Date | Opponent | |
|---|---|---|
| Dec. 15 | New Jersey | W |
| Dec. 17 | Dallas | L |
| Dec. 19 | at Oklahoma City | W |
| Dec. 20 | at San Antonio | L |
| Dec. 22 | at Los Angeles | W |
| Dec. 26 | at Sacramento | W |
| Dec. 27 | at Portland | L |
| Dec. 29 | at Golden State | W |
| Dec. 31 | Denver | L |
| Jan. 2 | Houston | L |
| Jan. 4 | Orlando | L |
| Jan. 5 | at Milwaukee | W |
| Jan. 7 | at Washington | W |
| Jan. 9 | Memphis | W |
| Jan. 11 | Boston | L |
| Jan. 12 | at Boston | L |
| Jan. 14 | Chicago | W |
| Jan. 16 | at Indiana | W |
| Jan. 18 | Phoenix | L |
| Jan. 19 | at Atlanta | L |
| Jan. 21 | at Detroit | L |
| Jan. 23 | at Chicago | W |
| Jan. 25 | Sacramento | W |
| Jan. 28 | at New Jersey | W |
| Jan. 30 | Milwaukee | W |
| Feb. 1 | Orlando | L |
| Feb. 3 | at Cleveland | L |
| Feb. 4 | Los Angeles | L |
| Feb. 6 | at New Orleans | L |
| Feb. 7 | at Memphis | W |
| Feb. 10 | at Minnesota | W |
| Feb. 11 | San Antonio | L |
Certainly there are some games here that I have marked as wins that they will loose and some games here marked as losses that they will win but this is still a very optimistic forecast. Even still, it has the Raps going 16-16 over their next 32 games and leaving them with a record of 26-29 heading into the final 27 games.
Does this seem accurate to other people? What are your thoughts on what to expect from here on out. Im a little at a loss for words here and I am seeking out guidance from the readers of RaptorsRepublic.com as to whether I should continue to believe that this team can turn it around or whether to believe that it is doomed. As I’ve said before, Triano may get Bosh’s nod of approval but so what. This team is better that the .430 ball it has played this season or the .250 ball it has played under Triano to date. And even if Triano is able to get his team to win 16 of its next 32 games- a team that plays .500 ball, barely scrapes into the playoffs and is gone in the first round after getting blown out by Boston, Cleveland, or Detroit- SHOULD NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH to keep my love and attention. SO why is it good enough for Colangelo?
Somebody send me some answers. Please.
As always, standing in the key, I’m the Dr. Ive got my feet planted and I’m planning on taking a charge.
Phdsteve
206 Raps
I think that what you’ve presented is a very realistic prognostication, which is sadly depressing. Personally, I’d prefer they throw in the towel and head for the lottery as opposed to struggling tooth and nail just so we can be cannon fodder in the first round. Mediocrity is Purgatory.
No offense, but this screams of a realGM’er. Up, down, up, down… this team is frustrating, but there is consistency.
JO – changes shots in the paint, takes the charge, comes over to help on defense. His offense is variable, but the defense has been what we’ve needed overall.
Jose – Efficient point guard with a lack of a defensive understanding. I would argue that he’s unsure if we’re supposed to be a half-court team or a run-and-gun team.
Parker – lost a step, both offensively and defensively. He’s hit his peak and going down.
Moon – the question is always motivation. No use keeping players like this around, but his contract makes him a keeper or a useful incentive as a trade piece.
Kapono – he’s not in the right system and is overpaid. He shows flashes enough to make him a moveable piece at the deadline, despite the contract.
Bosh – has never been a franchise player. Looks like a beast when he drives and horrible when he jump shoots. He’s a larger Vince Carter with less talent. He even had a period of laughing on the bench, after the Raps got crucified.
Humphries – lots of heart, but lacks talent. A good 12th man.
Bargnani – inconsistent offensively and defensively. Needs a change in scenery… will at best become a CV3 type of player. At worst? Loren Woods (though he is not 7′2″).
Adams – useless.
Solomon – Mike James with less talent coupled with Alston’s ‘leave your feet and pass’ syndrome. Worse than useless.
Ukic – just needs some time to develop.
Graham – flashes, but no consistency. What’s the point, really? He’s a 12th man at best.
My personal opinion is, Kapono and/or Bargnani and/or Parker need to be packaged for something… and hopefully we can get rid of Graham, Adams, Solomon as throw-ins. I wouldn’t rule out trading Bosh, but we’d need to get someone really good here… akin to a star-in-the-making (not unlike when Jefferson was traded for KG, Harris was traded for Kidd, etc).
steve – i think there are lots of us in the same boat…wanting to see the positives, but knowing that the future can be forecast relatively accurately by what’s going on now.
16-16 in their next 32 puts them at 26-31. not a disaster…but that’s if they can actually go 16-16, which remains to be seen. i have no confidence that they can routinely beat teams that they are on par with, so over the same stretch, i’m thinking that 15 wins (MAX) is about what we can hope for. it won’t be enough, even though the sched does turn in march & get ‘easier.’ of course, ‘easy’ is relative, and who knows what those ‘easy’ teams will be playing like then, or what their (or our) roster will look like.
they will, of course, win the odd game they should lose, but that will be countered by them losing more games they should win. until i feel a reason to be optimistic, i’m gonna crawl back into a fetal position, sit in a corner, turn off the lights, and mumble ‘gotta make mo shats’ until i pass out.
deja vu anyone?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=271120006
i thought something about last night felt eerily familiar.
The only key difference being Bosh’s performance!
C. Bosh
Points: 31
Reb: 12
Ast: 1
Stl: 0
Blk: 1
But this is in no way a relection of what I think about Bosh.
He is however struggling to find a way to dominate, like he was earlier in the season. I do firmly believe that he will get back to form very soon. There have been some distractions lately, which may have been cause for his performance as of late. I am truly confident that being the mature/poised/talented/skilled/franchise young man/player that he is he/we shall overcome. I know some of you may point at last night’s minor “outburst” over the fans reaction as a lack of maturity, but may I say that we all are prbably guilty of saying the wrong things at the wrong times in our lives, and no one is perfect. He is however perfect for this franchise and believe you me, we cannot withstand another rebuilding phase at this crucial moment of our franchises exsitence. I fully realize we are only two years back from a rebuilding phase, but two steps forward equals three years back…and I am not sure the Toronto Raptors organization could sustain that.
With the way the roster is I think your predictions will be proven fairly right, I’d like to point out that we haven’t beaten the Kings in Sacramento in about 10 years and haven’t beaten the Warriors in Cali in the last four. Also, the Clippers have won 4 of their last 6.
The NBA is full of tough teams that compete and play hard every night, we can’t do either on a consistent basis which puts us at a disadvantage even against mediocre opposition. The talent gap is a lot to make up too. Last year we got blown out in Seattle and don’t think the Thunder don’t know it. Desmond Mason, Joe Smith, Chris Wilcox, Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, Nick Collison – these aren’t bad players and you can argue are more talented than the what the Raptors will bring to the building. Gotta blame BC for that.
And yes PHD Steve you may have to see a shrink. It might be time to use that work medical plan you’ve been paying into for the last few years!
Just don’t go to the same one that FLUX has been seeing, he obviously isn’t qualified. Maybe Arsenalist can recommend someone.
HOLY SHIT LeBOOM is 6-9, 274 POUNDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHITTT
http://thebiglead.com/?p=10169#more-10169
I just want them to make the playoffs. Please, just make the playoffs.
so they can be ousted in 4-5 games i suppose…
What do you guys think of the following trade:
Caron Butler for Kapono & Parker
We would get a really good SF and Wizards get an outside shooter and an expiring contract. If we want we can add in a bench warmer from Wizards to fill a roster spot.
The numbers work on ESPN’s trade machine:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2010~635~1705~3243&teams=27~27~28~28&te=&cash=
Arse, that’s what I have been saying. Based on that, I have no idea how we can look at any game as say we will win. We win when the other team doesn’t play well.
===
And they are 2-6 under Triano, not 2-4.
You got us beating the Bucks, the Grizz, the Bulls, the Nets (lost one already) and the Kings twice… probably NOT!
i’m trying to figure out a more appropriate team name. as may seem obvious, i’m trying to survive the last two days at work before vacation.
cliptors.
raptorwolves.
grizzlors.
generaptors.
wesucktors.
thunder.
flux – they’ve actually now lost to the nets twice.
hoops – really? couldn’t we get anyone better for our garbage?
what about this one…it works on the trade machine:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2983~1994~3204~2015~3025~3027~2987~2759~2010~635&teams=28~28~28~28~28~28~22~22~22~22&te=&cash=
i wonder if pritchard would go for that…
Yertu.. I’ve called them the Timberclips for a while. You no like?
Yertu, I was going only by his predictions.
i agree with JohnnySlash #6. We cannot hope for another explosion, as much as I desperately want one right now. Bosh is a good player who needs a better cast around him. Right now, he is making the worst decisions I have seen in a long time. I used to see more than 1 weapon in his arsenal, giving various looks, drawing and kicking, dominating. Not seeing it, and I don’t know why.
Bosh should shoot: sometimes. For now, I wish he would forget he ever thought he knew how, because of the apparent slump he is in. Every dominant player in the league needs to know how to shoot. Even Shaq had the nice baby hook in the paint. Duncan, my favourite PF of all time has that sweet bank shot. These are not long range shots, but in the paint. Bosh should just try to get a little better position, and these shots he takes, if they are decreased in number by half, will start to look pretty good. Bosh is the second most frustrating player I have seen because of the talent I know he has.
That said:
The Raps cannot succeed without a solid #2 or #3 that can also do these things. I am telling you, just wait until Bosh and Wade team up in NY in 2010 (if that happens) – all the Raps fans will start booing Bosh because they will think he Cartered us all over again. But he isn’t. I have never seen a player more dedicated to helping out Toronto’s franchise. There is something missing mentally that is affecting his game on the floor. Give him some time, and BC, give him that dominant #2 to compliment his game.
The most frustrating:
I thought Jose could do it. I mean cut, drive, play under the net feeding inside out. I guess he can’t. To me, that has been the biggest disappointment of all. Add that, and I think the Raps are a better team, with a few more W’s. I lauded him last year for his ability to see the floor, drive, and space it out well. He hasn’t this year. I thought he was the smartest PG in the East. Maybe he still is? If he is, then I have no idea what the hell is wrong with him.
Does anyone have the stat of what the raptors record was the same time last year? I remember them losing alot of games in Nov and Dec until they finally turned it up in the new year.
hey flux, they are 2-6 under Triano, but were 2-4 when I wrote the article before the jersey game.
butler for garbage wont happen but I think thats what yertu was suggesting with his trade machine post (quite funny btw).
I heard GS is looking to move Stephen Jackson, do you think JO would like a reunion?
14-11 after 25.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/schedule?team=tor&year=2008
steve – funny? whaddya mean, i was being serious. i think portland would do that, can you imagine veg. lasagna playing beside oden!?!? oh man, he’d be tearing it up.
verbatim is totally right- we should cut bosh some slack and yes, Calderon has underperformed.
portland is playing over .600 ball- there is NO chance they trade all those guys- even if you leave Roy out of the deal.
we had our chance to get Roy but BC made a different decision. Portland wouldnt deal Roy for anybody not named Lebron. sorry
flux – yeah, sorry, forgot about the timberclips…but i wanted to include some variation of ‘raptors’ in it, as best i could.
i like generaptors. or maybe generaptals. or maybe just generals. the toronto generals. or maybe genitals.
I like Caron for Parker/Kapono, only thing is Washington doesn’t!
Anyone remember this game…one of my all time low Raps moments…
yertu, while I enjoy your passion for the raps, and while I love your trade proposal, I don’t think there is a chance portland does that; I think that Roy is virtually untradable- it would have to be Bosh and the wings going over for that package….
Forgot the link…
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=FeXZY4eVLlo&feature=channel
steve – do you know how to spell ‘facecious.’ is it ‘facecious,’ or ‘facetious?’ i think that’s it.
portland wouldn’t trade half of those guys even if bosh & calderon were included. maybe in a year, when they start to run out of minutes, but by then, they’ll be even hotter commodoties. they’ll be able to turn a few of them into excellent prospects & picks. and they still have lafrentz’s deal coming off the books this year. even if they get screwed by miles, they’re still in beyond excellent shape.
ah, to dream…
Hoops,
after 25 games they were 14-11 then they went 11-10 until the end of January /7-5 Feb/ 6-11 March / 3-5 April… yeah, turnaround all right.. right into the toilet.
point taken
sorry, i guess i forget that sarcasm doesn’t translate well over the ‘net. the point of my trade ‘proposal/joke’ was to point out JUST HOW INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUS IT IS TO SERIOUSLY THINK WASHINGTON WOULD TRADE CARON FU%^ING BUTLER FOR TWO OF OUR PIECES OF CRAP.
actually, if you need to kill 4 hours or so, try to make a trade involving ANY raptor that makes them better and that another GM would even consider making (bear in mind, mchale lost his GM duties).
Honestly, if we don’t beat OKC, I’m gonna be really, REALLY pissed!!
At the present time, I still believe and have faith in our current roster to make the playoffs.
I’ll add that BC still has one move to make to clear some salary after signing Jake the Snake.
Steve, word.
Yertu,
Craptors? Too used? Choketors? Rapbunktors?
I also agree with this post…I can’t make my mind up on this team. The teams’ situation sits entirely on BC’s well-tailored shoulders. He was the one who re-signed Smitch, even though we struggled through the second half of last season and the playoffs; he moved our top available player(TJ) AND our top trading chip(Rasho) in the same trade for ONE player, and I still disagree with the inclusion of the pick-he should have been putting the screws to Indy, not vice-versa.
Good point yertu…I cannot possibly fathom any trades that we could make that would make us and the partner better…guess that’s why I’m not the Cipperwolves or whatevas GM…
Used to call them the Scraptors…but that was when we had Jorge Garbojosa and the east was weak and we won the Atlantic with 47 wins.. the same team this year would probably be around the same mark now
Hopefully we can call them the Scraptors once again…only after yertu’s ingenious trade option…
—————————
re: sorry, i guess i forget that sarcasm doesn’t translate well over the ‘net. – by yertu
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Nawh, that’s not it, at all. It’s just that,
Sarcasm is a poor excuse for intelligence. : )
Authentic intelligence involves getting someone else to laugh along WITH you, rather than AT someone or something else.
Has anyone realized that it’s MUCH harder for Colangelo to make a good trade with another GM because of his profile. After winning 2 Execs of the year its almost like he has a target on his back and everyone is aware and weary to deal with him.
I mean all the good moves in recent couple of years have been under the radar & by unknown GMs like Kevin Pritchard and Sam Presti.
JohnnySlash,
re: #38
IMO, the 2006-2007 team, dropped into the EC today, would be better than 10-15.
Khandor where is this written? As if you of all people have never laughed at someone or poked fun of someone…aparently yertu damkule
yertu,
re: #32
Would you like to place a small wager on this request, on your part?
JohnnySlash,
When I don’t include a link, then, you should consider it original khandor material. : )
2007-08 Roster
NUM PLAYER POS HT WT DOB FROM YRS
7 Andrea Bargnani F-C 7-0 250 10/26/1985 Italy 1
9 Maceo Baston F 6-10 230 05/29/1975 Michigan 2
4 Chris Bosh F 6-10 230 03/24/1984 Georgia Tech 4
8 Jose Calderon G 6-3 210 09/28/1981 Spain 2
20 Carlos Delfino G 6-6 230 08/29/1982 Argentina 3
3 Juan Dixon G 6-3 165 10/09/1978 Maryland 5
11 T.J. Ford G 6-0 165 03/24/1983 Texas 3
15 Jorge Garbajosa F 6-9 245 12/19/1977 Spain 1
14 Joey Graham F 6-7 225 06/11/1982 Oklahoma State 2
43 Kris Humphries F 6-9 235 02/06/1985 Minnesota 3
24 Jason Kapono F 6-8 215 02/04/1981 UCLA 4
2 Darrick Martin G 5-11 170 03/06/1971 UCLA 12
33 Jamario Moon F 6-8 205 06/13/1980 Meridian CC (MS) R
12 Rasho Nesterovic C 7-0 255 05/30/1976 Slovenia 9
18 Anthony Parker G-F 6-6 215 06/19/1975 Bradley
As opposed to:
2008/2009 Roster
3 Hassan Adams F 6-4 220 06/20/1984 Arizona 1
7 Andrea Bargnani F-C 7-0 250 10/26/1985 Italy 2
4 Chris Bosh F 6-10 230 03/24/1984 Georgia Tech 5
8 Jose Calderon G 6-3 210 09/28/1981 Spain 3
14 Joey Graham F 6-7 225 06/11/1982 Oklahoma State 3
43 Kris Humphries F 6-9 235 02/06/1985 Minnesota 4
21 Nathan Jawai F 6-10 280 10/10/1986 Australia R
24 Jason Kapono G-F 6-8 215 02/04/1981 UCLA 5
33 Jamario Moon F 6-8 205 06/13/1980 Meridian CC (MS) 1
6 Jermaine O’Neal C-F 6-11 260 10/13/1978 Eau Claire HS (SC) 12
18 Anthony Parker G 6-6 215 06/19/1975 Bradley 5
5 Will Solomon G 6-1 185 07/20/1978 Clemson 1
1 Roko Ukic G 6-5 183 05/12/1984 Croatia R
77 Jake Voskuhl C 6-11 255 11/01/1977 Connecticut 8
Maybe one or two more wins, but at the end of a long gruelling season, I hardly think there would be much of a difference, meaning they would both end up where these 2009 Raps will most probably end up .500 or a couple games under…IMO
Exactly my point…it’s fodder…and as such should be subject to riducle
yertu,
Come on fella … I already have my first “proposed trade to improve the current team” ready to roll out to the faithful here at RaptorsRepublic.com for them to vote on.
If the majority vote “No”, then you win.
If the majority vote “Yes”, then …
: )
Just say the word.
JohnnySlash,
Ridicule as much as you’d like.
“The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” – Anonymous
and,
Time is what will tell if it’s right or not. : )
JohnnySlash, are you new here? : ) If so, welcome and enjoy. Hope you brought pen and paper to make some notes. Be sure to check out khandors link. FREE, I repeat, FREE gold at the end of that one.
JohnnySlash,
What you wrote inititially was the team from the 47 Win season, which was 2006-2007, not 2007-2008, in comparison with this current one.
Is that what you meant to say? Or, did you actually mean to say/write something else? : )
Flux,
And, you know what … FREE doesn’t always last forever. : )
I know, I always wondered about that, buy you never reply to emails. Are changes in the making, at the mine?
Not a big difference in those rosters and yes I made a mistake, and now looking at it I still believe what I said to be true
How about this trade….
Kris Humphries($3.2) Anthony Parker($4.5) Will Solomon($0.7)
To Magic for:
J.J. Redick($2.1) Hedo Turkoglu ($6.8)
Loose Parkers 3pt shoot BUT gain Hedo 3pt and ability to drive to the hoop. Hedo doesn’t shy from a challange, can handle the ball on Offence. Can play the 2,3 or 4 spot. Rebounds. PLUS he alway kills us when we play the magic.
Start Moon/Kapono and bring Redick off bench. Redick can handle ball. He made a splash in his college days. Not looking for alot with this guy.
I’ll miss Humphries but…. sorry Hump….business is business.
New Line-ups
Calderon, Kapono, Hedo, Bosh, O’Neil
Roko, Redick/Moon, Graham, Bargnani, Jake Voskuhl.(Shorten Play Time)
I don’t see any personallity problems either… hmmmmmmm
To ere is human…
Flux:
You can keep your “free” it is not needed here…
I don’t rely on others charity…
Khandor:
Furthermore I would really like to know what you propose is the saviour trade that will correct this ship?
2 years ago they were 10-15 after 25 games and ended up with 47 wins, so there is some (very small) hope….
Papi:
No way Magic make that trade, what do they gain?
They loose a starter for what? One good bench player (AP) A decent big backup(8th or 9th player)and a roster filler????? Doesn’t add up.
Although I wouldn’t mind Hedo, however does he play D? I’m not sure he does, which would be a severe liability..considering…most Raptors are anemic when it comes to D.
JohnnySlash,
A “Saviour trade” is NOT what yertu asked for. : )
Flux,
Safe to say that things have been going fairly well lately and there just might be a tweak or two in store, sooner rather than later. I’ll be sure to keep you informed.
They gain Wil Soloman! The Greatest NBA Baller Ever!! With Parker you could probably get his Sister phone number. With Humphries you get a banger that great at warming the bench. Obviously!!
Well…. we paid BC load of $$$ for a reason. Sell Ice Cube to an Eskimo right?
Come On JohnnySlash we gotta sell it!!… I know it’s a stretch but everything works out in “The Magical Land of Raptorville”.
No but you implied it, and I guess every Raptor follower in his/her right mind is looking for one…call it what you want…improvement trade/saviour trade, whatever…just tell us what you propose and stop beating around the bush…because that’s for infants. Otherwise stop posting for now and let us talk about ideas/concerns, because at least we throw things out there. Not just metaphors.
BTW, I really like this trade, for defense intensity purposes, however I really doubt Hotlanta would do this…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1031~2797~2759~635&teams=28~28~1~1&te=&cash=
Your loss, JohnnySlash.
As my last act of “charity” to you: It’s err not ere and it’s lose not loose.
Khan, good to hear.
I have this sick feeling that BC has attempted to deal, but all the trades were not advantageous .. so here we sit and what we see is what we got.
It’s going to be painful to watch the Raptors .. unless we see a miraculous turnaround. Don’t hold yer breath.
Excuse me if my grammar/spelling is a little off, It is late where I am in the world, and I am a little bit tired…
However I make valid points, and you my internet friend have still not graced us with your proposal..so what is it going to be?
Stop trying to be so righteous, and put your money where your key hand strokes are…if it sounds good to me/all of us, you will not hear any remarks from my post… :)
Holy shit this Khandor dude is annoying.
khandor Identicon Icon khandor
Dec 18, 2008 2:45 pm | Permalink
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re: sorry, i guess i forget that sarcasm doesn’t translate well over the ‘net. – by yertu
—————————
Nawh, that’s not it, at all. It’s just that,
Sarcasm is a poor excuse for intelligence. : )
Authentic intelligence involves getting someone else to laugh along WITH you, rather than AT someone or something else.
—————————————–
But your an idiot. Authentic intelligent people know when there wrong and can accept critisism
well put joe :)
Anyways about the schedule Steve (someone who is intelligent):
It shows that they have 1 (4 game winning streak) and 2 (3 game winning streaks). Are the Raptors capable of back to back to back wins? Can they sustain there effort for a long period of time? I don’t know.
#
JohnnySlash Identicon Icon JohnnySlash
Dec 18, 2008 4:24 pm | Permalink
well put joe :)
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Yeah Ive been wanting to say something for a while and now I am. He just kills the whole vibe of this site. And I know a lot of people agree with me
In regards to your question of back-to-back-to-back wins (although not directed at myself) I feel that they have a hard time sustaining effort for even 48 minutes, let alone three games in a row. I remain to be optimistic that they can though…
agreed FAQ… I’m trying to think of any combination of players not involving Bosh, Calderon, Bargnani in trade scenarios, and once I put myself in the other GM’s shoes, I realize that the Raptors have absolutely nothing to offer.
If this is painful, I’d hate to see what happens if Bosh leaves in 2010, and we’re stuck overpaying for B-list NBA players like Larry Hughes, Jerry Stackhouse, and Raja Bell
Yeah.
This game is all mental in my opinion. ( hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard). Our players at our disposal already know ahead of time that there either going to win the game or loose it. So they mentally check themselves out before stepping on the court.This is why we cant win a single game against a western conference team. With such a collection of “nice guys” we cant compete against Boston or Detroit or Utah or Denver. Were more at ease when we face Charlotte and Milwaukee.
If our players had a Kevin Garnette mentality or a Charles Oakley then we can beat any team in the league, period. Boston destroyed the Lakers last summer because they were mentally tougher and Kobe, Lamar, Gasol, Vuajic weren’t prepared for that
MigsDec 18, 2008 4:36 pm | Permalink
agreed FAQ… I’m trying to think of any combination of players not involving Bosh, Calderon, Bargnani in trade scenarios, and once I put myself in the other GM’s shoes, I realize that the Raptors have absolutely nothing to offer.
I have felt this same way for a couple of months now…although…
…One might argue that Kapono is attractive to a few teams, who could/would utilize him properly…I might agree..but beyond that…not much…unless you factor in Anthony Parkers expiring contract, but only closer to the deadline…all in all not much to work with at all…certainly not gonna get you that elusive 2nd(SF) option we’ve been looking for.
JohnnySlash,
I implied nothing of the sort. : )
I will need to hear back from yertu, first, re: the offer I made … before fulfilling the specific request he made:
try to make a trade involving ANY raptor that makes them better and that another GM would even consider making (bear in mind, mchale lost his GM duties). – by yertu
Are you game, Yes or No? : )
D #41: You’re kidding me? You think execs are scared that Bryan Colangelo is sooo smart that he’ll fleece them in any deal they make?
The only trade BC’s flat-out won so far is Hump for Hoffa.
khan – whatever. if i could actually find in your litany of garbage posts an actual point, i’d try to respond. somewhere in there, i think you wanted me to enter into a wager with you, but i’m not sure what it was over? hoop’s proposed trade (butler/young for AP/JK)? if so, then sure, i’ll ‘wager’ on it (that, while appealing to the raps and their fans, would never be made). how, exactly, one does that over the ‘net is a bit confusing, but what isn’t when dealing with someone with as high an intellect as yourself?
if that’s the deal we’re talking about, and since it’s the only one i was referring to in my previous posts, then i assume it is, then sure. but i’m guessing you have some as-yet fantastical trade that would likely never happen, but that you’ll still contend would ’solve’ all the raps problems. this way, you can’t lose…the deal you propose won’t possibly happen, and therefore, can never be proven or disproven. awesome!
unfortunately, i live in what’s commonly referred to as ‘reality,’ and as such, i try to base my opinions on events that could actually take place.
migs – don’t limit the trade options, include bosh, he’s the only truly valuable piece anyway. jose would be, but his BYC status makes him less appealing for the raps (ditto for hump, albeit to a lesser degree).
MigsDec 18, 2008 4:36 pm | Permalink
——–
agreed FAQ… I’m trying to think of any combination of players not involving Bosh, Calderon, Bargnani in trade scenarios, and once I put myself in the other GM’s shoes, I realize that the Raptors have absolutely nothing to offer.
———
I have felt this same way for a couple of months now…although…
…One might argue that Kapono is attractive to a few teams, who could/would utilize him properly…I might agree..but beyond that…not much…unless you factor in Anthony Parkers expiring contract, but only closer to the deadline…all in all not much to work with at all…certainly not gonna get you that elusive 2nd(SF) option we’ve been looking for.
FAQ
Dec 18, 2008 3:58 pm | Permalink
I have this sick feeling that BC has attempted to deal, but all the trades were not advantageous .. so here we sit and what we see is what we got.
It’s going to be painful to watch the Raptors .. unless we see a miraculous turnaround. Don’t hold yer breath.
——————————-
Agreed. Bryan, in his mind see’s that this team has potential and he’s not going to undo the work that he has spent 3 years culminating. From a MLSE viewpoint, he has been a winner when you think of profits and viewership.
What Bryan will say is: Were still learning under a new system. Bosh is going through a difficult period. Nathan Jawai coming back into the fold slowed our growth. bla bla
Well… Ill always cheer for Toronto. They’re my home team. Whether it will be painful and shitty to do it forever is another question.
khan – posted mine before i saw your latest.
hmmm. interesting. go for it. of course, it’s always subjective as to what ‘better’ means, right? are we talking ‘better’ the day after the trade, or two years down the road? and who decides on the plausibility of whether the other GM would make the deal?
but sure, this could be fun. let’s have it.
yertu,
Once you read #78 … you should know exactly what you requested, and what my offer is in return.
If not, just let me know THAT and I’ll repeat for you again.
Yeru:
I don’t think you can include Bosh in that. Unless he is traded for as I said before a handfull or two of players in the league, it is just not worth abandoning our plan, which was to surround Bosh with good players to win a championship(or at very least compete very hard and go far into the playoffs). I don’t want a few “maybe gonna be good/great players” coming over for our franchise player…IMO.
D Identicon Icon D
Dec 18, 2008 2:46 pm | Permalink
Has anyone realized that it’s MUCH harder for Colangelo to make a good trade with another GM because of his profile. After winning 2 Execs of the year its almost like he has a target on his back and everyone is aware and weary to deal with him.
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Or maybe there looking to take advantage of his current situation with Bargnani and our wing play. Shoe is on the other foot and now gm’s will be looking to fleece him
yertu,
“Subjectivity” per se is part of what a blog like this one is all about, right?
What exactly “better” means and all that … is of little concern to me.
You wanted a trade that fits in the espn nba trade machine and makes the Raptors “better” which the opposition GM would actually agree to make, correct?
Khandor that bush you are beating around is now dead, and on the ground, just tell us what you propose, so we can all ponder it and come to our own far grown conclusion
no no, johnny, you have to play the game…khan needs to feel as though we’re asking him to give us his insight (he’ll give it whether we ask or not, but that’s no fun).
khan – i said, let’s have it.
JohnnySlash,
Actually, I don’t think it’s quite dead yet … at least, for the likes of joe/joey.
Who likes this trade?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trademachine?teams=28~30&players=635~2010~2753~2433~1026&sendto=30~30~28~30~28&from=28~28~30~28~30&te=na~na~na~na~na
I am pretty sure it would work out for the Raps, questionable for the Bobcats, but then again they enjoy getting “fleeced” a little
Rudy Gay/Conley might be a Trailblazers. ESPN
I guess you wouldn’t know a bush if it crawled into bed and smacked you in the lips…
well…if wallace hadn’t stated he wouldn’t report to TO (that’s the story), then i’m not sure it’s feasible. i can see brown liking hump’s hustle & athleticism…and then parking him on the bench for 6 weeks for taking an ill-timed jumper. would felton be happy playing behind jose? he’s not a great PG, but he probably considers himself a starter.
i think they had their fleecing for the year. or not. why would they include dudley in that deal? wouldn’t he be the EXACT kind of glue guy you can build a young team around? so given that…
I think your wins vs losses is very optimistic with the current team make up if changes happen then who knows and no one knows what/when changes will happen your confession of being a sox fan speaks volumes as to why you are confused following the Jays is just as frustrating as the Raps but at least these teams are ours…
yertu, dudley got sent to phoenix, it is only his trade exception included. And tough shit for felton, he would make a great backup pg…he would have to deal with it..
joe what are posting about gay/conley to the trailblazers? for who?
According to Memphis Sports56 talk radio, there’s a huge trade that may be going down with Memphis and Portland.
Travis Outlaw, Jerryd Bayless, Ike Diogu, Raef LaFrenz & ’09 1st to Memphis
FOR
Rudy Gay, Mike Conley, Darko Milicic & Antoine Walker to Portland
If this goes down, wow. Just wow, Pritchard.
that would be a nice trade for portland, Memphis would get screwed again. Not sure there is much validity, however crazier things have happened.
Yet our incompetent GM wont get in on this. They can offer Gay and OJ Mayo for Bargnani and we would say no
yertu,
——————————–
re: no no, johnny, you have to play the game…khan needs to feel as though we’re asking him to give us his insight (he’ll give it whether we ask or not, but that’s no fun).
khan – i said, let’s have it.
——————————–
Actually … that’s not the truth, in this instance … as, the FACT IS, if you did not ask, I would not tell you.
Since you did, however … and you’re being polite about it, too … then, in the name of Rodney Carney!!! … here’s but one example that meets your request to the betterment of this current team:
It’s a minor deal that accomplishes the following for the Raptors’ trading partner …
* Improves their overall offensive production, at a minimal cost to their current Salary Cap/Luxury Tax Threshold situation
* Might put a few more rear ends in the seats for a struggling franchise
* Gives them a bigger expiring contract in two years time with which to wheel & deal
while, simultaneously, accomplishing the following for the Raptors …
* Removes a bad contract from the current team
* Removes a non-Rebounder & non-Defender from the current team
* Improves the Raptors’ Team Rebounding & Team Defense situation, especially on the Wing
* Adds another hard-working, good character [but with "an edge to him"] player to the room
* Improves the Raptors’ current Salary Cap/Luxury Tax Threshold situation
* Fundamentally changes the focus of Toronto’s franchise
Proposed Trade #1 … speaking of the Memphis Grizzlies
How long it will take for someone to slam that Proposed Trade, from the Raptors’ perspective?
10, 9, 8, 7 …
memphis seems to have a bit of a fetish for young PGs. i was under the impression that conley has been losing minutes to lowry, but that memphis was still pretty high on him…i guess getting bayless back makes it something of a wash. i’m guessing portland figures reuniting conley w/ oden will give both a spark.
i have a hard time believing memphis give up on gay, hough outlaw is appealing. i thought walker had been bought out?
Conley
Roy/Fernandez
Gay/Batum
Aldridge
Oden
Don’t think so Khandor. Don’t want him. Would rather have JKap. Greg freaking Buckner. Seriously, there would be a riot at the ACC if this happened. you are taking a starter(should be a sixth man) and replacing him with a bit/role player. How does this make us better? How does this address our second option dilema? I understand we don’t have much to work with, but come on. How many boards does he average? I realize it is not always about the stats, but seriously they are indicative of production to some degree…come up with something better…unless you have a trade number 2 to compliment the first one…which I somehow believe you do…
what’s to slam? doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of it, you won’t agree, so i might as well just say, ‘good one.’
i guess giving up a marginally impactful player on a shitty team for a non-contributing shitty player on a shitty team makes sense.
or where you just “fleecing” us, and you have the real trade following…?
Why is this faggot still typing bibles?
johnny – you’re not playing the game. y’see, it’s not about what can be ’seen’ by merely ‘looking.’ you have to Look Beyond the Obvious. just because buckner hasn’t contributed at all to memphis, doesn’t mean he wouldn’t contribute to the raps.
khan – i guess i assumed you’d propose a trade that a GM would BOTHER making. and i think it’s safe to say that an argument could be made that while it would make memphis ‘better,’ the same cannot be said for the raps. and i thought JK had 3 more years left on his deal…so it wouldn’t be expiring for ‘10.
of course, the whole exercise is just to prove your ‘outside-the-box’ approach, right? get everyone in agreement against you, so you can spew on about how no one understands how the NBA game, in 2008, works, right?
I can’t see, where should I be looking? How come I don’t understand how the nba game works? Am I stupid? Why is it that I can’t seem to get out of this box? Where is the door? Khandor please help me. You are the Jedi of all beings and the great allmighty, please bless us with your wisdom…
Best trade proposal yet…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2433~2010~2171~2794&teams=29~29~28~28&te=&cash=
Have D start, bring Bargs and JO off the bench, and W’s a good young wing to develop…what do you think?
Although BC would have to do something throughout the year cause we would be taking back a little bit more money…
lol We dont even have the scouts or the smarts to draft a great player. I wouldn’t feel confident if we were givin this years #2 and #4 pick. This draft will be a wash after Blake Griffin and maybe Bryan will convince himself that he can find a solid gem in Euroleague.
Lets calla spade a spade.
Does a winning general manager and president bring the likes of Will Solomon, Hassan Adams, Jake Vaskhule, Jason Kapono, Jamario Moon, Anthony Parker if he was really commited to win a ring?
Me thinks he’s employed by Richard Peddie.
Lets make lateral movements and add/remove players through the process.When stuck in this midset, we sign Jake Vsshkule instead of trading for say, Pau Gasol
Re: #70 and 73. Joe, thats your opinion and I am sure some of us feel that way about your posts. For example
“Our players at our disposal already know ahead of time that there either going to win the game or loose it. So they mentally check themselves out before stepping on the court.This is why we cant win a single game against a western conference team. ”
What does this even mean? There is no logic here that I can follow.
Go follow Khandor then
Re: 118:
Kudos, very well thought out and articulated response!!
I am not “following” anyone. I like to discuss basketball and whether or not I agree with all the posts, I recognize that people with well thought out positions can disagree with me.
I am still trying to figure out what you meant in your post though.
“Our players at our disposal already know ahead of time that there either going to win the game or loose it. So they mentally check themselves out before stepping on the court”
As opposed to other team’s players who know they are going to tie a game, so they are mentally into it???
DG,
In your opinion …
Would the Proposed Trade #1 [i.e. Kapono straight-up for Buckner] make the Raptors a “better” team?
Votes cast, thus far:
No – yertu, Joe
Yes – khandor
Thanks, in advance. : )
Our players are not talented enough to win us games. They know this ALREADY.
Well go back to school if you cant understand. Idiot
They are not mentally strong enough to win us the tough
games.Understand?
Why do we blow leads when up by 20 points?
Why cant we win a game against any elite team?
Its because the players don’t mentally brace themselves for the task at hand. There soft. SOFT.
Coming into a game praying not too lose ( The Raptors) is a huge difference then coming into a game knowing there will be bloodshed(Boston).
You get it now or do you need em to make you look stupid again?
revised … should read as:
——————————–
DG,
In your opinion …
Would the Proposed Trade #1 [i.e. Kapono straight-up for Buckner] make the Raptors a “better” team?
Votes cast, thus far:
No – yertu, Joe, JohnnySlash
Yes – khandor
Thanks, in advance. : )
——————————–
Wouldn’t want to leave out any voters by accident. : )
@# 79 via # 41
Arse, I didnt mean that GMs are scared to trade with him, they’re just more aware of his profile and would negotiate much harder with him, essentially killing most of the proposed deals by him.
Think of it as an NBA player who sneaks up on the league for one season and then everybody becomes aware of him, figure him out and play him that much harder!!
My point is that I believe that BC is wheelin’ and dealin’ only the other GM’s aren’t accepting and lowballing him. Whereas low-profile GM’s like Pritchard, Presti and last year Mitch Kupchak(who everyone seemingly wrote off) have made big steals recently.
Khandor go get laid. Have you touched a girl before ? Meh me thinks not
hey, where did i vote no? i’m all for this trade.
WOOOW… it’s getting real RealGMee in this piece. Threads/posts getting locked, children throwing around insults while having the nerve of accusing others of “killing the vibe”. Excellent! Khandor, DG, I am not affiliated with this place in any way, but please don’t be deterred by the lurking clowns, who have been part of this place for a minute and are acting like rude guests. Appalling. Then again, that’s what attracts these kinds of people when such behavior is accepted and the owners “have their back”. Yertu, don’t get sucked in man, I know “you are better then that”.
Joe,
re: Khandor go get laid. Have you touched a girl before ? Meh me thinks not – by Joe
Whatever problems you might have … don’t make the mistake of trying to put those problems onto others, as well. : )
And Arse, when you are comparing Bosh to KG, and calling them the same player and/or claiming Bosh actually may be better then KG, not so sure what prevents one from comparing him to Mr. 11 rings. Talk about losing credibility.
I don’t think we can beat Oklahoma to be honest. They have more firepower and having a few 21 yr old players with a lot of it is too much for our players to handle
These comments on this page are hilarious and stupid. Oh Boy. I do agree though that Khandor needs to stick to discussing basketball and loose the sarcasm and arrogance. Its not needed.
yertu,
re: hey, where did i vote no? i’m all for this trade. – by yertu
Mistake on my part, then.
Revised votes to-date:
No – Joe, JohnnySlash [2]
Yes – khandor, yertu [2]
Dead-locked at the 1/4 pole.
And the players I like to watch, that might not have all star talent but make up for it with heart and effort is Joey Graham and Roko Ukic. You can see that these two always do what is asked of them. Joey can easily attack the basket and draw contact and thrives. Roko will break down the defense and create shots for Jermaine and Bosh and our wings. His jumper needs work but what he’s more useful for is to create for others
yertu,
re: khan – i guess i assumed you’d propose a trade that a GM would BOTHER making. and i think it’s safe to say that an argument could be made that while it would make memphis ‘better,’ the same cannot be said for the raps.
Given that last sentence … Are you sure your vote really is “Yes”? : )
Oh Shit, Vancouver signs Sundin: Breaking News
Always said eh was about the money and I stand by that
So what great player headed for or in the hall is Bosh supposed to pattern himself after.
For the benefit of late-comers …
Given yertu’s specific request in #32:
Q1. Would the Grizzlies GM make Proposed Trade #1?
A1. Yes, he would because it makes Memphis a better team.
Q2. Would the Raptors be a better team with Buckner added to the present roster in place of Kapono? [Yes or No]
A1. ?
Option 1 [present roster]
Calderon-Kapono-Moon-Bosh-O’Neal
————————
Ukic, Parker, Graham, Bargnani, Humphries, Solomon, Adams, Jawai, Voskuhl
Option 2 [post trade roster]
Calderon-Moon-Graham-Humphries-Bosh
————————
Ukic, Buckner, Parker, Bargnani, O’Neal, Solomon, Adams, Jawai, Voskuhl
Feel free to cast your vote in this thread. : )
just to quickly agree with Joey, these 2 are the only reason I watch the “late” raptors..just wanna see them get more time and put em on the floor together.
In favor of the trade.
Re: 121
Joe, clearly your well articulated arguements, excellent use of english, and general demeanor support my need for further education. Happy to compare educational credentials. I am not going to bother discussing the issue further. As Jay-Z says “never argue with a fool, as people far away cant tell whos who”.
Arse cant be held responsible for the ignorant fools who sometimes post here. This is a great site with quality analysis, good debate and knowledgeable fans. I hope the loudmouths dont push out the reasoned debate.
I was listneing to a bit of the Fan on the way home, Sherm and the other guy are serious homers.
DG,
Jay Z quote? Respect. “You can pay for school, but you can’t buy class.”
Re: Arse, no he can’t, but he encourages(ed) the behaviour.
flux – just to be clear…you’re bagging on arse for comparing bosh to garnett, yet seem to be supporting khandor’s comparison of bosh with bill russell? really?
khan – huh…i don’t remember saying i agreed with that trade. you’re crazy.
just to touch on that trade for a second…aren’t quite a few assumptions being made? i’m not trying to just discredit it outright, i do see the principle behind it. and i’m not suggesting that there aren’t players out there toiling in obscurity who can provide the raps with some of what they’re missing.
but i’d like to think that even though we’re just playing the GM game, we still need to abide by the rules of reality & probability. i think it’s entirely debatable that the trade ‘works’ for BOTH teams (i.e. that both would be ‘better’ off for it), and further, i find it laugable to suggest that a GM, regardless of how much of an idiot we think he may be, would trade JK for buckner, or a player of his ilk.
all in all, this is EXACTLY the type of deal i figured you’d come up with, something obscure that has almost no chance of ever happening, and thus whose merits will never become known. but again, that’s the point.
yertu, the clear up for ya.. not supporting, because I have some reservations about that as well.
Not sure why you got the impression I was. Just sayin…if he’s comparing him to Bosh, not much difference in someone comparing to Bill. Not to mention, informing them they are losing credibility. KG and Bosh? Really?
And here’s a question for ya… which one do you think is more comparable?
I’d be leaning on Bill before KG any day of the week.
This thread is a little disappointing, there’s a LOT of people reading this and not commenting and I can only imagine what’s going through their minds as they’re reading some of the stupid comments.
Joe has been out of line a few times here but I don’t want to delete any comments since they throw everything out of context. I do realize that my language in the previous post didn’t help. I can just promise that future threads will be moderated better. Seriously, I just took a nap after #79 and woke up to find this.
Anyway, I’ll go back to basketball for a bit:
Flux, Re #128: I said that Bosh’s skill-set is comparable to KG’s and that the main difference between the two is that KG’s aggression, emotion and intensity helps him to get more out of his skill-set than Bosh’s who has yet to figure out how to play at a high level in terms of effort and tenacity. I had also hinted that Bosh’s skill-set might even be better than KG’s because he’s quicker, has an arguably better jumper and is considerably younger. I realize that this is a highly debatable subject because one can classify a guy who plays great defense as having skill rather than simply effort. I stand by what I said.
khandor, in the other thread, hinted that Bosh can be a superstar since Bill Russell was a superstar and that they have something in common – no post-up game, lack of jumper and under-sized at C. Now I’m not old enough to have seen Bill Russell play but from what I’ve seen on YouTube and NBA highlights, the man was a roadblock on defense, I don’t see any reasonable grounds of comparison here until Bosh averages 18.6 – 24.7 for 13 seasons in a row. If you just base it on physical characteristics, then I can do something asinine like comapare Nathan Jawai to Bill Russell since they don’t have a jumper and are undersized at C. It’s stupid to even name Russell when discussion Bosh. Really.
Flux, Re #126: If that’s referring to my comment about nunya and Andiamo a couple days back, I stand by that too. Those guys might be brutally harsh with their foul language but they usually make a pretty solid point. You just got to look past the language and keep your basketball differences aside.
Papi, Re #55: Why would the Magic do that deal? That trade-checker is probably gonna crash with the amount of trades being proposed with Parker and Hump in it. Remember, if you don’t want a scrub on your team, why the hell would somebody else? I’ve been saying this for some time, if we want to make a significant trade we’ll have to give up Bargnani because he’s the only one who might have some real value to a GM who thinks his potential is yet to be tapped. (At this point khandor usually jumps in with a post saying how people who propose trades are retarded because the best thing we can do is wait and let Bosh/Calderon develop).
Khandor, Re #136: Of course the Grizzlies will make that trade, they’re getting the better player and the salary bump coming their way is reasonable. I don’t know if you’re looking at Buckner as the defensive stopper off the bench who can slash and cut, but if you are I think you’re overvaluing him. He’s a fringe NBA player and we already have enough of those.
Not a great link but still, talks about Buckner:
http://www.nbapostup.com/content/greg-buckner
Arse, I knew what you were saying, but you are both basing it on potential, no? I also said I have my reservations about the Bill deal, but again, if I were forced to pick I’d take him. Agreed, highly debatable and based on your current perception of all three parties involved. Just didn’t care for the credibility dig.
Also, I knew what you were implying about nunya and Andiamo. Just didn’t agree with how you went about the praise, as you may or may not realize what it’s encouraging with other posters. Example – today.
And not sure how you do not delete Joe’s comments but do g’s last night. Whatever, not my site. You know I’ll keep coming here, I am capable of ignoring the dimwits, my “concern” is essentially what your 1st paragraphs was, and I have nothing vested in this site other then my time, so again… whatever.
I’m watching the Orlando and San Antonio game. Stan Van Gundy I think is the next best coach in the L after Popovich. He takes a team from last place in the east to 3rd seed in a year. Orlando is dominating teams and plays aggressive beginning to end. That’s what I want for the Raptors.
flux – generally speaking, i think it’s a fairly useless exercise comparing players, either with their contemporaries or across generations. take the russell comparo – i get that both he & bosh are similar physically, but don’t the eras in which they played/are playing influence their impact? would bill russell, playing in the NBA today, be the bill russell he was 50 years ago? i kinda doubt it. numbers generated in other eras just aren’t representative to today, and that goes across almost all sports.
likewise, i tire of the incessant need to compare players to recent other players, ‘the next jordan’ tag being the most obviously retarded. i guess it’s easier to say, ‘player x is like player y’ than it is to just talk about player x’s attributes.
in the big picture, what does it matter who we compare bosh to, or why do we feel the need to do so? he is who he is.
Yertu, I agree with the era argument. That IS my reservation. I’ve had the conversation with Khandor before, and he made a convincing case that it didn’t make a difference. I wasn’t completely convinced, but was more receptive to the possibility. Ask him, he may be be willing to break it down for ya.
haha…yeah, i think i’ll pass on that.
anything’s possible. including the notion that it does make a difference.
yertu,
#1 … hey, where did i vote no? i’m all for this trade. – by yertu
#2 … khan – huh…i don’t remember saying i agreed with that trade. you’re crazy. – by yertu
Priceless. : )
——————————–
Which means the vote tally is now:
No – Joe, JohnnySlash, yertu [I think, therefore, I am, I think]
Yes – khandor, DG
i change mine from ‘no’ to ‘who cares?’
been thinking about the OKC game…i’m feeling better about it; while it wouldn’t totally shock me if they lost, they *should* rally together & pull out a win. i wouldn’t be surprised if they won comfortably.
but at this point, very little would surprise me.
they have to know that the season is on the brink, right? e. smith said so.
Don’t read E.Smith.
Q1. Why does it matter who we compare Bosh to?
A1. Because certain people around here seem to be fond of comparing Bosh with certain other players who THEY consider to be stronger than this young man.
————
The FACT IS … given the History of THIS League … those people do not know what they are talking about.
Arsenalist,
* Is Jawai left-handed?
* Is Jawai 220 lbs?
* Does Jawai have a lean, angular, athletic frame?
* Has Jawai played his first several years in the NBA at the Center position, as an under-sized [i.e. height & weight] player?
* Has Jawai ever led the NBA in shot blocks recovered by his own team?
* Has Jawai ever pulled down 18-19 [or more] Rebounds in a NBA game?
* Has Jawai been the lead Center on a US Olympic Gold-winning team?
* Does Jawai have a keen mind/intellect? curious, imaginative, and with well-developed sense of humour?
* Has Jawai demonstrated through his play, in the NBA, at the start of his pro career, his willingness to put the good of the TEAM first & foremost? [i.e. above his own individual statistics]
After playing for a great coach at the University of San Francisco for 3 years [plus one season of freshman ineligibility, I believe] do you know how old Bill Russell was whn he played his 1st game in the NBA for the Celtics?
After playing one season at Georgia Tech do you know how old Chris Bosh was when he played his 1st game in the NBA for the Raptors? and, that today he is still only 24 years of age?
——————–
Others are certainly free to hold a different opinion than mine, when it comes to finding an apt comparison for Chris Bosh. That is your perogative.
Khan, i think you bring a very interesting point of view to the discussion. I often find myself reading and sometimes re-reading your posts. The one thing i can’t shake is that you find people stupid if they do not understand your explanation of something. This in my opinion is a failure on your part to express your views in a clear and concise manner. I find it interesting how you never comment on posts whereby your arrogance and belittling is brought into the equation, but only where there are personal attacks that put you in the position to easily dismiss them as immature and childish.
Your basketball mind is interesting, but until you can express yourself in a constructive and clear method, ultimately it is useless.
If people can’t understand what you are saying thats YOUR fault for not explaining it properly in the first place. Its not because people are stupid. Take a look at your diction and syntax before calling people what is essentially stupid. At least everyone can understand what they are trying to say.
They have a good center, power forward, point guard and a rookie head coach who will probably become a successful head coach. That’s it.
BC has to fill in the rest.
The fans deserve to boo this team when it fails to make the simplest of basketball plays.
This franchise needs Bosh more than anything else to survive and attract high quality free agents.
BC will make a deal soon. It’s a guarantee and it will not include Bosh.
BC may not be the best but he did get two executive of the year awards. Some people say that’s because it’s an old boys club or it’s because he’s popular. Well, the truth in this world is, It’s who you know not what you know. That’s why I have faith in this GM and believe with Bosh as a center piece things will be okay.
Asked how he would react if his favorite team were not meeting expectations, Bosh said, “I don’t know, just sit there, I guess.”
-is bosh this arrogantly dumb?
By the way Khandor, im against the trade. I feel like this team just isn’t good enough at the other 4 positions to have JK on this team BUT i do believe we can get more value than this for him.
Is there no-one better that you could think of that we could get for one of the best shooters in the league?
yertu,
#1 … hey, where did i vote no? i’m all for this trade. – by yertu
#2 … khan – huh…i don’t remember saying i agreed with that trade. you’re crazy. – by yertu
#3 … i change mine from ‘no’ to ‘who cares?’
Priceless, squared. : )
——————————–
Which means that the vote tally is now:
No – Joe, JohnnySlash
Yes – khandor, DG
================================
Arsenalist,
Instead of thinking that I might be over-valuing a strictly “bit” player like Greg Buckner, think instead that you [and some others, including Bryan Colangelo?] might just be over-valuing Jason Kapono?
Sanders,
Fair enough, but … know that the question is not …
“Can we get more value for Jason Kapono than Greg Buckner?”
The question is …
“Would this team’s roster be “better” with Greg Buckner on it in place of Jason Kapono?”
================================
Current Vote Count:
No – Joe, JohnnySlash, Sanders [3]
Yes – khnador, DG [2]
^^ Yeah, I thought of that and I’m not overvaluing Jason Kapono. Well, I don’t think he’s worth 6M a year but leaving salary aside, I think he can help this team pending proper usage. More importantly, I think he’s got a skill that is valued across the NBA and I’d like to believe he’s worth more than Greg Buckner in a trade.
The thing that is impossible for us is not knowing what the league views are on our own players. Not one GM watches as many games as we do of the raptors. We drastically change our valuation of our players from over value to under value sometimes as often as the end of every game.
What this creates is confusion. Is our trash really trash to all? Or is it Boris Diaw buried on Atlanta’s bench? I’m not sure there is an answer to this.
The only way we will find out ones value is by the actual transactions taking place. The fact that we can’t make any transaction right now might speak volumes itself.
re: Asked how he would react if his favorite team were not meeting expectations, Bosh said, “I don’t know, just sit there, I guess.”
-is bosh this arrogantly dumb? – by Andiamo
LOL, LOL, LOL … along with CB4!
As I said, above … the young man has a keen mind/intellect, curious, imaginative, and with a well-developed sense of humour. : )
Ah yes…. but then we get into a fun little thing called opportunity cost.
Kind of like, our team is better with Joey Graham, but it would have been better if we had drafted Granger?
As we have seen from the TJ trade, the opportunity cost of any given move is an extremely large measuring stick as to whether a deal is in fact a good one.
jesus christ..greg buckner?
Sanders,
not to interject, but are you serious right now? Do you really think the manner in witch Khandor communicates his points would make any difference at all? And are you missing the verbal abuse he is enduring, over and over and over again, without may I add retaliating on the same level? Think you may want to direct your advice at those parties. The bottom line is people are entirely too sensitive at how the message is being communicated instead focusing on what is being communicated and discussing those points.
id like to applaud those who attempt to decipher khandhores gibberish and Napoleonic ranting….i skim over his crap from time to time,its a sad mix of sudoku meets tic tac toe meets “look at me,im unemployed and have way to much time on my hands,im sad alone and desperately need the attention”…his crap is extremely annoying….kudos to those who entertain and enable this dweeb….rock on dude.
I just posted this on E Smith’s blog, it’s awaiting moderation.
Eric, it took you till December 18 2008 @ 9:15am to figure out that things aren’t looking good?
Joking aside, Neil does have a point. You guys are way too easy on this team and have helped breed the culture of mediocrity that’s surrounding this franchise. Even Jack Armstrong who I’ve always thought to be a great analyst is sucking it in now, he even proclaimed to be the “eternal optimist” in the last broadcast. I understand why you don’t want to criticize the players, coaches or GM, after all you do want them to give you interviews but if that’s keeping you from speaking your mind, then its got to suck coming to work.
As for the team, long-time blogger AltRaps on my site said it best:
“This team’s just like Roseanne Barr’s pantyhose, full of holes and beyond repair”
http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/ericsmith/2008/12/18/this-is-the-season/
Flux, I completely agree with you. The fact that he does not shoot back at these people more often is indeed to be applauded. I’m just trying to express to him that he wouldn’t get the flak he gets if he dropped the attitude. I appreciate his views, my point was that i wanted to be able to understand them better.
And re: this Buckner debate. What this guys bring to the table is somewhat immeasurable. Offensively he in not a workhorse, and he doesn’t care about that, nor needs to be. It’s the mental fortitude this team needs right now, the lack of meltdown ability when things are going wrong and defensive/rebounding presence. Greg Buckner would not allow 30 point meltdown to come about, rest assured. My only concern would be his TOs, cuz that’s what sticks in my mind form his Dallas days, right now
IMO, of course.
Carry on, debate how useless this guy is and is 10K times better then Kapono.
Arsenalist,
In fact, Kapono/$5 Mil+ is worth more than Buckner/$4 Mil+ … in terms of dollars & cents.
What the team would gain, however, by sliding Moon to the 2, Graham to the 3, Hump to the 4, Bosh to the 5 … and, then, by shifting Parker [1, 2 & 3] & O’Neal [5] to the bench, to go with Ukic [1], Buckner [2], Bargnani [4] & Voskuhl [4/5] – leaving out Jawai until he regains his conditioning, and Solomon Adams because HE is just not very good – would more than off-set the loss of Kapono’s erratic 3PT-shooting.
lol…greg buckner?
Also Flux, some of the flames in here have been completely unacceptable. People need to read what they post after they right it and take a deep breathe before posting.
Arse, if you want, i am on this site quite a bit, if you want another set of eyes moderating i would be happy to help out.
I wonder whether a player that is A) New to the team B) A role-player (to be generous) can really demand the type of accountability this team needs?
Should we be looking at lesser talented players for a different team mental make-up? I think the answer is clearly yes. But the better question is, How much of this roster needs to be changed to make this change?
Sanders, look, we all have a style and honestly more often then not, when he is INITIALLY posting or making a point, there is not, what you call attitude. He doesn’t draw the first punch in a fight, sort to speak, either. It’s always some yahoo disagreeing with his overall point and then blasting away with RealGM/eleventeen type insults, to which he mildly replies with dismissal and humor. Again, really, just get past the style, focus on the key stuff and let the clowns feed their egos by picking on the completely irrelevant material. Cuz you know, as stated earlier by some, they don’t need his “charity”.
i’ll bet $1000 thats khandhors fantasy basketball team is in last place….you know,its one thing to debate and have heated discussions in regards to a team we all love but the condescending attitude toward people that dont and wont massage your ego and worship your wannabe gm delusion is farcical.
Just watched the Bosh interview, the guy keeps making excuses about the coaching change despite the fact that they’ve been choking under Jay just as bad as they did under Sam. I hate how this guy keeps on saying that they’re gonna turn it around and all that shit while making stupid jokes in between.
Can we all just agree that this guy is not THE leader or a legitimate first option for a contending team?! Enough with the Duncan, KG, and especially the Russell references!
This guy is much closer to Shareef Abdur-Rahim or Pau Gasol than any of those HOFs.
There is no excusing poor manners. Personal insults, by anyone, no matter who throws the first proverbial punch, is unacceptable and takes away from the conversation of basketball. That IS why we are here.
I am screaming for this team to be blown up, Sanders, because as Dino and Arse are saying, I am tired of watching the same movie over and over again. Last night all you had to do is imagine Dallas wearing Nets unis and I swear you were watching the same exact game.
I just think someone needs to get their ass shipped out, to rattle this team and weak them up. Everyone is a little too comfortable right now. The losses are just rolling off their back.. like, oh well, another game tomorrow. Not to mention Triano is treating these guys like BFFs and would never lay into anyone. Nor does he probably know how. Shoot, the guy is too busy screaming travel at the refs and taking it all out on them. And bringing someone else in.. not to start barking around but to lead by example instead of running his yap ala JO or Jose or Bosh right now, would be refreshing. This team has been talking about the “changes” that need to made for over a month, but on the floor it’s the same old, same old.
—
I never said he throws down personal insults, more like simple dismissals. Am I wrong? Point out a personal insult on his behalf for me, I really may be wrong. Maybe I have my RELEVANT INFO filter cranked up too high.
Sanders,
1. There’s a difference between saying that “someone is stupid” … which is something I do not do … and saying that “someone doesn’t seem to understand ‘How the NBA game works’” … which is something I’ve said on occasion here and elsewhere.
There is nothing condescending in that.
If others think that I am THE one who doesn’t seem to understand “How the NBA game works”, then, that’s okay with me. Time will tell if they are right, or not.
2. re: diction & syntax
i. Some CHOOSE to express their thoughts and ideas in a straight-forward way at all times; others do not. By this point, you should be able to tell into which category I fit.
ii. Some topics/subjects are best illucidated in a less-than straight-forward way.
e.g. Have you ever read the Art of War? Or, the synoptic Gospels? Or, the Federalist Papers? Or, The Prince? Or, Practical Modern Basketball?
Those who choose to play with language, sometimes, do so because they are, at heart, mere players. Nothing more, and nothing less.
iii. Some topics/subjects are inherently contradictory and convoluted … except, of course, to those who choose only to see in perfectly, rigidly, straight lines.
Yes, I know it’s difficult to understand what I write sometimes … of that you can be sure … but, “That which doesn’t kill us only serves to make us stronger, in the end.” – Anonymous : )
Hmm… what do we think of this? Clippers get a shooter for the double teams that their bigs and b-davis will see and we get an athletic promising wing. Hart is a decent back-up PG who can come in and defend his position.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2998~312~3237~2010&teams=28~28~28~12&te=&cash=
Khandor #170: How can you say we can off-set the loss of the 3-pt shooting we lose by acquiring a guy who can’t shoot and promoting a guy who can’t shoot into the starting lineup?!
We’re talking about Greg freaking Buckner here man!! This guy is NOT James Posey as you’re making him out to be, I could understand if it was Shane Battier, Ron Artest, Udonis Haslem, Mikael Pietrus, Travis Outlaw, Al Thornton etc but Greg Buckner? C’mon man, this guy will have zero to negligible impact, I think you’re just saying this to get a reaction out of people.
As someone yesterday said, let’s not try to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. Let’s fix the core talent base of this team and then start adding the Greg Buckner’s of the world. Danny Ainge first acquired Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett, then he rounded it off with James Posey, not the other way around.
I’m off to bed.
lol@sanders asking to moderate….yikes…kumbaya my friend,kumbaya,lol.
Flux look at #40.
Khandor: I get it. I really do. I understand that you prefer a more intangible approach to communication. I suppose what i am saying is that not everyone is wired the same way as you and so your words will connote differently with different people. When people try to take the straight-forward approach to posting you have to respect how much more difficult it is to turn something complicated into something simple that many people can understand. That is the mastery of communication. A mastery that none of us have mastered. Just because someone can’t express these things does not mean they do or don’t “get” the nba game. Frankly, i really don’t feel like judging people’s knowledge of the NBA is even a constructive exercise. Instead, just explain why you feel they are wrong and let your argument speak to this.
GREG BUCKNER…..ROLFCOPTER
lol Andiamo.
Yeah… i don’t know why i said that.
I suppose i have a belief in the site and the quality of some of the basketball minds here. If that means it needs a couple more eyes to make sure people aren’t being idiots then so be it.
Quinn Buckner for Jason Kapono?
A couple of points
(1) Buckner has three years left on his contract (including this season – same as Kapono) but the following two years are non-guaranteed. He’s basically an expiring contract.
(2) With that in mind, Memphis definitely does not make this trade. They’re in cost cutting mode and have no interest in adding longer more expensive contracts for mediocre role players. They’re keeping as much as their cap space as possible for higher level talents.
Memphis would be taking on almost $15mil more in this deal, with the reward being Jason Kapono. There’s no way they make this trade.
(3) Buckner is no longer worthy of a spot in an NBA rotation. He isn’t good enough. Nice locker room guy to have at the end of your roster though. Kapono on the other hand is worthy of a spot in an NBA rotation (although I’d rather him not in mine). Buckner does not improve the Raptors from a basketball standpoint.
Buckner was a very poor player for Dallas, a worse player for Minnesota and has shown nothing in Memphis. Four or five years ago Buckner was a superior player to present day Kapono, but not today.
(4) Going back to Buckner’s expiring contract, this is exactly the type of trade I’d like to see Toronto make with Jason Kapono. The player who returns is largely immaterial in this scenario. What is of importance is freeing up the cap flexibility (the expiring contract) so that the Raps can spend their MLE next summer (or hold it over until 2010) on a player who is actually worthy of the paycheck.
It’s the simplest way to upgrade Kapono, and it will bring a greater upgrade than any trade ….. in other words the MLE can acquire a better player than a Jason Kapono trade can.
btw,anybody watching this gem of a game between blazers and suns….man i wish we played like this….have we hired a sports psychologist yet?
Sanders, explain #40 to me. Where is the insult?
Haha, sorry Greg Buckner not Quinn Buckner. Oh, it must be too late in the day for this.
Arsenalist,
No reaction intended.
In this league … You can only trade value for value. You might not like that Kapono & Buckner are relatively equal value players but the harsh truth is that they are.
When you make a deal in this league:
1. It has to be acceptable to the other trading partner.
2. It has to fit under the arcance Salary Cap & Luxury Tax Threshold Rules of Engagement.
3. It has to be acceptable to you, as the GM of your team … principally, because what you’re getting back in return is of different but similar value to that which you’re relinquishing.
Buckner is a bit player. So is Kapono.
Kapono is an erratic spot-up shooter, sometimes scorer. Buckner is a consistent defender/rebounder.
Kapono is a player with a soft image. Buckner is a player with a tough image.
Kapono is someone who needs to play a fair amount. Buckner is player who doesn’t need to play a fair amount.
With Moon, Graham, Parker, Adams, Ukic and Bargnani on this team already … which one of Kapono or Buckner do you think is a better fit for a team that is currently characterized as being too soft, with an inability to REBOUND, Defend and an over-reliance on perimeter jumpshots?
Dave,
In fact … I might trade him for Quinn Buckner, too. : )
Sure Flux: Yertu was being sarcastic. Khandor says “sarcasm is a poor excuse for intelligence” therefore Yertu = unintelligent by simple reasoning.
Whether this is what was meant or not, it was completely unnecessary and in my opinion, was effectively calling him stupid. Not needed in this type of forum.
Dave,
Speaking of older players who you feel might not deserve to keep their current place on a NBA roster, playing for a high end team …
mehopes that you can recall who it is that I am speaking about … toiling for the team that just refuses to die. : )
Turns out that you may have been premature in your assessment of him, as you might be incorrect about Mr. Buckner, here & now, in terms of his on-court ability.
In terms of Mr. Buckner’s contractual value, relative to Kapono’s … IMO, you are pretty much on the $$$ … and, perhaps, only you amongst the others here would be astute enough – i.e. way moreso than me – to suggest that it would in fact be Memphis [not Toronto] that might turn down the Proposed Trade #1 offer due to financial considerations.
Sanders,
FWIW … it was yertu who said that he was using sarcasm.
What I said about “sarcasm”, on the other hand … was generic. : )
Others will need to decide for themselves if the glove doth fit the hand in question.
Sanders,
IMO, your belief in the site is commendable and should be rewarded, not harpooned.
Those responsible for the site are doing terrific work, and improving steadily.
IMO … Arsenalist might not know the actual sway he is developing amongst the Raptors’ faithful, in his words and actions.
“With tremendous power so, too, comes increased responsibility.” – Anonymous
lmao…u are such a wanker.
I don’t know which player you’re referring to Khandor. I remember talking to you about Donyell Marshall in that light. Was there someone else also?
Just watched two good games tonight … Spurs-Hornets and PHX-Portland .. very entertaining and a pleasure to watch.
Rather than watch the hapless Raptors and then attempt to analyze what is wrong and how to fix it, I’ve decided not to waste my time in that futility .. it’s just not worth it.
The Raptors are just not playing NBA-quality bball and cannot be taken seriously by bball aficionados. Of course that won’t stop tribal honking fans faithful to Toronto from chewing, swallowing and regurgitating each of the Raptor’s games and players. That’s not bball .. that’s masochism. I guess I’m too cynical and that’s no way to live life.
Top of the Season to all …..
LMAO @ “if the glove doth fit the hand in question”?? What is that? Shakespear?
How did I ever live without this site….
BTW, no to Buckner. I don’t think Memphis even makes that deal cuz of Kapono’s contract which runs past 2010. Without that its a no-brainer.
Brandon Roy with 52 points. Chris Bosh hasn’t scored 50 points in his entire career. Not once lol
Nice drafting Colangelo. You Fucking Cunt
Who would have thought I would check this site after watching some of the most entertaining basketball I have seen in a long while, and come to find 200 posts, half of which are bickering and squabbling amongst posts?
Apparently, the Raptors poor play has begun to tear us apart! Let’s try to be respectful, yeah? Arse does a great job on the site; let’s not make his job more difficult trying to weed out these non b-ball discussion, ya? Read what you typed, and if it is an attack, forget about it. If it sounds like you are talking down to people, try to change your what you wrote and say it differently. Period.
My opinion on Bosh: based on what I have seen over the past few years is a young player with the explosiveness to be a true force in the NBA. In my opinion, he is better that Amare simply because I feel he has a better attitude to the game and to teamwork. I have seen him for years play team ball. Now, this season, he is struggling, and he has a weak supporting cast. He has lost faith in this team, and I am beginning to as well. You can’t pass the ball to Parker, because he will take a contested running jumper at the top of the key. You can’t pass to Moon half the time because he is looking to take a jumper, which is not his strength. Calderon, I thought, was going to be much better than he is right now. HE is the player I feel has been the biggest disappointment. Last year, I saw so much with him I am not seeing now. All I can hope for is that he will do those things to imprive his game: drive and dish, run at offences before they are set instead of stopping at the top of the key, playing a better outside-in game.
Give Bosh some time. And, BC, give him some help. If we lose Bosh, and he goes to a better team, he will be the dominant force we think I can be – but, he, like KG, like Amare or most any other big, he needs a potent #2 or #3. Every GM in the league would kill to have him on their team. And everyone on this blog will be all over him, for showing us no heart, or not trying or any other kind of BS. I have never seen a Raptors player give as much to the team as CB4 has over the past couple of years. And I am not about to throw that away over a bad stretch of games.
“he will be the dominant force we think I can be” lol
needless to say, replace “I” with “he”. Oh, and replace “we” with “I” and
Thanks Khandor. I appreciate that.
Re 201: Bang on. I have watched bosh as we all have since his first year. The one thing i always took away from him was his passion and effort that he put into the game. With his smaller frame in comparison to the average 4/5’s in the league, there was a type of David vs. Goliath complex that made me want to pull for him. I think we need to give him a pass for these last 10 games or so. He is a young kid whose best friend (TJ) was traded from the team, whose mentor is now gone(smitch), and whose expectations have been shattered.
I’m not excusing the way he has been playing, but I think we need to take a hold of his body of work and let it speak for himself. He didn’t all of a sudden lose his competitive spirit and his will to win. Frankly, I think he is a disappointed young man who is trying to figure out what is going on and is getting piled on by every person he sees in the street.
Now THIS is one of those learning experiences that Bosh talks about after a bad loss. I fully expect him to bounce back.
As strange as it may seem, or as distasteful to perception, there may be something to the notion of getting JO out of his way, no?
Dave,
Although he struggled again last night, the player in question remains a key member of the team that, according to Chris Webber, just refuses to die … and, no, he’s not Donyell Marshall.
If you were to ask Flux for a clue to his identity, he would probably point you to a pic like this … give a wry smile, and then curse, in silence, repeatedly. : )
impediment,
re: As strange as it may seem, or as distasteful to perception, there may be something to the notion of getting JO out of his way, no?
: ) … : ) … : )
A dish that’s best served cold.