It’s the last home game till New Years eve against the Mavericks tonight. The game’s on TSN2 so if you have Rogers you’re out of luck. Check back around 7PM EST for the stream which will also be available in the live chat. Check the Opening Tip which gives you a reason to be thankful for TSN2.
Jay Triano’s post-practice scrum (you should listen to it, every article in every GTA newspaper is based on these) is all about rebounding. He’s putting the Raptors rebounders into two categories: those who should track the ball and those who should box out. In other words, those who can get the rebound through their size and skill and those who are better off focusing on boxing out and preventing their man from getting the rebound. You can put in all the effort in the world and still not be a good rebounder (ahem..Bargnani) and those players are better off not being a problem rather than trying to be part of a solution.
Chris Bosh and Jermaine O’Neal are getting a lot of heat for the Raptors’ -16 performance on the boards but if you look at individual stats, Bosh tied his man in boards and O’Neal was only -1 against his, so where did the other -15 come from? The blame here doesn’t fall on O’Neal not hustling hard enough or Bosh being a bad defender, the majority of it falls directly on the guards who were -10 in the category. The primary reason for this is…yup….you guessed it…switching. The more we protect the paint, the more we switch and the more we switch the more rotations we need to make when finding a man to box out. Triano has had success in protecting the paint and has lowered the FG% of the opposition but he’s opened a can of worms in terms of rebounding. Anthony Parker, Joey Graham, Andrea Bargnani (at the SF) and Jose Calderon all fall under Triano’s “should box out” category and right now their being overmatched on the switches.
Consider the following stats under Mitchell and Triano:
| Mitchell | Triano | Overall | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Opponent FG% | 46.8% | 42.4% | 45.5% |
| Opponent Points in the Paint | 41.05 | 36 | 39.5 |
| Total Rebounding Differential | -3.3 | -11.4 | -5.7 |
| Second Chance Points | 12.8 | 18.7 | 14.5 |
We’re holding teams to a lower shooting percentage and restricting their points in the paint under Triano but at the cost of giving up rebounds and second chance points. This isn’t rocket science by any means and a natural side-effect of our defensive strategy. However, Triano commends the players for quickly picking up his defensive system and figures that if they try and grasp his rebounding advice as quickly, they’ll be fine. I say we need to give him some time and allow him to implement a solution to this issue just like he did for the PINP/dribble-penetration problem.
Right now we’re 10-14 and if things go according to trend we’ll be 10-15 after tonight heading into the 6-game Western swing. Going 2-4 is the best-case scenario there with the wins coming against the Thunder and the Clippers, so conceivably we could be 12-19 very soon and if we lose to Denver at home on New Years eve (first game back from West is always tough), we could be 12-20 and needing to go 29-21 just to get to .500. Now as things stand right now in the East an even record gets you into the playoffs but we can’t count on that to be true later in the year. The road ahead for the Raptors is very tough, ideally we needed to be somewhere around .500 at the end of December but it doesn’t look like its going to happen and its going to put a lot of pressure on us in the second half of the season. Can Triano get this gang of fringe NBA-talent into the playoffs? I think at this point that is a challenging prospect on its own.
There’s a quote-heavy article from Doug Smith where Jay Triano’s talking about being aggressive on offense:
Almost every play we diagram is something where guys are going to the basket, (to) try to create some points going to the basket, see if we can get (out opponents) in foul trouble. We started off the (New Jersey) game doing extremely well. First play of the game was a foul, went to the basket, we moved the ball and we shared it.
I’m not too concerned about our offense under Triano, he’s improved the ball and player movement and has set a nice consistent rotation where everybody seems to know when they’ll be coming in. If anything, it’s the one-on-one play that’s been missing since he took over, especially Bosh’s who now needs to pile on a high number of FGs to get his points. You have to wonder how well Bosh can fit into a real system where his responsibilities include more than just making an offensive move to draw a foul but also passing, reading double teams and recognizing potential cutters. If there’s one player that has struggled to grasp Triano’s offensive system, it is Bosh but then again, we are in its infancy.
Let’s talk about the game a little here. The Mavericks are 13-10 and out of the playoff picture in the West, however, they’re 7-3 in their last 10 with wins over some mediocre teams such as the Bobcats, Thunder and the Hawks. They’ve lost their last two big games against Denver and San Antonio are are firmly established as pretenders in the West. We’ve lost 11 of the last 13 games against them with a history of blowing big leads. They are the second best rebounding team in the league behind only the Lakers so it goes without saying that…you know…we got to take of the boards.
In Basketball Canada news, Leo Rautins has been extended as head coach of the national team for another two years. Meh.
Tonight should be fun, let’s go Raps!
77 Raps
1. Bosh comprehends the nuances of Triano’s offensive system just fine. Just because he isn’t scoring as many points as he did under Mitchell doesn’t mean he is struggling in this new system. The fewer points CB4 has to score … to secure a victory [ala @ NJ] … the better off his team will eventually be.
2. The team’s current rebounding woes are rooted in the play of three specific Raptors: I] Jason Kapono; II] Jermaine O’Neal; and, III] Anthony Parker.
The answer to this problem has already been provided for you:
STARTERS: Calderon-Moon-Graham-Bargnani-Bosh
KEY SUBS: Parker & Humphries
SITUATIONAL SUBS: Ukic, Kapono, O’Neal
EXTRAS: Solomon, Adams, Jake V. & Jawai
If you choose to reject it … so be it, that’s your business. Doesn’t mean that THE ANSWER is incorrect/wrong.
3. The Switching Defense is not related to the Rebounding Problem at all.
4. The improved Defensive FG%, in isolation, is meaningless.
Making a major trade in the next while is NOT what this team needs to do.
Oh goody…the smartest fan base in the NBA is going to get all excited about millionaire professional basketball stars learning how to rebound.
I guess there’s something in the water that prevents the population of this city from retaining the memory of 95% of the post game scrums over the last few years about the lack of rebounding…this is a new development that must be discussed ad nauseum…it really helps….
Certainly there must be no trades….men in their late 20s and 30s suddenly become totally different on the court all the time….
A team that has shown repeatedly that it can only come up with concentrated effort for 20 minutes per game, of COURSE is going to turn it around just because Jay Triano suggests that they should…
It’s just a matter of changing around the deck chairs on this Titanic…..for goodness sakes, only a mean aggressive American wouldn’t understand that if you just keep repeating the same obvious shit over and over it’s inevitable that this team will go from barely beating bottom feeders to dominating the elite teams…
You see, the reason non of them can play hard for more than one game is that NO ONE TOLD them they should….
My goodness, if you just put Anthony Parker with Jermaine O’Neal… no wait, put Bosh with Joey Graham….oh goodness, there are so many variations of hustle, talent and drive and balls, brains and athleticism, it’s really only a matter of moving people around endlessly…
Only a big fat meanie wouldn’t see that.
nunya, I see your point which basically is that the roster can’t rebound and there’s nothing Triano can do to change that. I think in his post-practice scrum he hinted at that by saying that there are weaklings on the team who just can’t rebound and should just worry about boxing out.
The guy deserves a chance to fix the problem though, the numbers show that he’s improved the PINP and Opp FG% which was ridiculous under Mitchell. Let’s give him a chance and see what his attempt at fixing the rebounding problem is. Tonight against Dallas should be a good test.
I agree with your points at 1, 3, and 4. (Although with 4, I think the improved defensive FG% has certainly been affected by the new defensive plan)
As for point 2, I agree with your 3 problem raptors you’ve identified, and I might even add Calderon as a 4th, although he has less of an effect since he’s a PG. At the same time, since we’ve been switching, he ends up guarding other players frequently, so his refusal to put a body on anyone hurts us more than if he were only guarding PGs. But O’Neal is very immobile and doesn’t chase anything.
As for your suggested rotation, however, I think all 3 of your situational subs bring more to the table than Parker, particularly at the offensive end. Parker is not as good defensively as people want to believe, especially with regards to rebounding, and he’s also pretty anemic on the offensive end. And Parker playing backup PG is not the answer – ballhandling skills are not strong enough, and neither is his court vision. At best, he’d be able to throw the ball to Bosh in an iso and space the floor. I love the guy, but AP needs to see less time.
I see Amare is pouting again about wanting to be “the man” in Phoenix. Wouldn’t it be great if we could do a Bosh for Amare deal? They both have a couple of years left on their deals & they are putting up similar numbers.
everyone should remember that JO averages 10 rebounds a game. Most of the time when he is not getting a rebound its because guards like Caleron (who cant guard anyone) and slower wing players are getting beat off the dribble and so JO has to leave his man and his position in the low post to come over and protect the paint.
so much of this years problems on defence come from Calderon’s horrible play on defence- and the drop off in defensive efficiency from guys like Moon who had great years last year.
not only does it take your bigs out of position but it also puts them into foul trouble early and often.
this team has 3 7 footers- 2 of whom average 10 boards a game (JO and Bosh) and one who should (andrea). then they got guys like Humph, Joey, and Moon who all are capable of 5+ boards a game. the issue here isnt that guys dont “know” how to rebound.
Well, rebounding is the issue. What I like about Triano’s apparent approach is that he isn’t just telling guys to be better rebounders. He is working on team rebounding: something I have advocated from the beginning. If we have the 3 bigs on at one time, it is Bargnani’s job to box out his perimeter guy and jump for those long boards. It is O’Neal and Bosh’s job to get the ones in the paint, and everyone else box out – not this mad scramble to run to the net every time a shot is hoisted up, leaving open all of the opponents players to hustle themselves.
Can triano fix it? That remains to be seen. I would like to say yes, because I think he is a great coach from what I have seen, and I am deathly afraid of Colangelo running for Messina in the off-season.
On a side note: is there a chance that the Raps can get Bell and/or Diaw? I think that they could provide some toughness on the perimiter we lack.
oh, and #5, under no circumstances would i deal with Amare for Bosh. If he is unhappy on a great team in Phoenix, imagine how shitty he would play with our inability to run the ball?
Amare is the player he is today because of Nash. Nash finds him the ball at the perfect times to allow him to take on the opposing team. A PF like Amare cannot take over games without solid distributors (all usually exceptions to the best PF I have ever seen, Mr. Duncan). I have made this point with regard to Bosh, and I make it about Amare too.
hey verbatim,
you dont have to worry about Amare for Bosh, because there is a 0% chance that Pheonix would make that deal.
As for Diaw and Bell, ESPN.com was reporting today that there is a chance that they will end up in NY before the deadline for Curry and Lee.
Here’s my take on a raps trade that would benefit this team- I posted it on raptorstalk.com about 10 days ago:
http://www.raptorstalk.com/2008/12/06/why-stop-with-triano-when-you-could-get-nash-and-have-a-reunion/
Regardless in terms of toughness and big game factor Amare > Bosh
“we could be 12-20 and needing to go 29-13 just to get to .500.”
On the bright side of things, Arsenalist, you got your math wrong. That would have the team going 41-33. Only 74 games. They can lose 8 more games so they need to go 29-21 the rest of the way to make .500 if they end up in that situation. Not as bad as you first thought. It is achievable.
———————————–
Jermaine’s rebounding has been very poor since he returned from injury. He’s yanking down only 5.4rpg in 29.5mpg in his 8 games since the comeback. Very poor. He’s naturally a slow starter so it’s likely just a blip and he’ll get back to his high level of rebounding from earlier this season.
His negative rebounding has hurt the Raps quite a lot lately. As has Andrea as his backup. As has no Kris Humphries for the past few games. Joey Graham is another who hasn’t been rebounding the ball as well as he can recently. Leaving only Bosh (solid) and Moon (excellent recently).
That’s the primary reason for the Raptors struggles on the backboards recently, not Jay’s defense. Too many of the Raps better rebounders are missing in action, and Bargnani is a major liability – and for 8 games so has Jermaine. The Raptors don’t have enough rebounders on their squad to make up for the best one’s struggles, it goes downhill quick smart when that happens.
Oh shit, thanks. I’ll fix, but the point still holds: .500 will not be good enough to get into the playoffs and we’ll need to be somewhere near +6-7 games over….IMHO
You think the 7th + 8th seed in the East will win 47-48 games this year? Or are you talking about a higher seed?
I’d be surprised if the East ended up like that (8th seed 47 wins) at the end of season.
Finishing 7th or 8th is absolutely pointless. I’d rather miss the playoffs than lose in 4 or 5 games to Boston or Cleveland. We need to finish 6th or above to have a chance against Detroit (still tough), Magic or Atlanta…
Ah, okay.
Dave beat me to it about Gimpy’s stats lately. Not to mention his foul trouble hindering his ability to help his team and his lack of desire to..you know..jump. Not sure if he is still mentally worried about his knee.
Might I also just say that if I have 3 7footers on a team, 2 of which have been on allstar teams, one of the 3 should be averaging 14-16 a game. 23boards (roughly) between 3 big guys is nothing to be happy about.
And what in the world gives us a chance vs. Detroit, Magic or Atlanta? It doesn’t matter who we play… this team has mental problems in the regular season, what do you think happens in the playoffs? They should just tank so they don’t make it and embarrass themselves further.
This team won’t win 30 games.. no freaking way.
Nunya’s comments need to be Rap of the Day, everyday.
Who averages 14 boards a game in the NBA? I don’t even think Howard averages that? Camby never averaged that. Sorry Alt Raps, but that is unrealistic.
We still havn’t heard the answer to the question of whether Amare is part of, or still part of that team’s plan.
JO seems to be in pretty good position and gets touches on a lot of those lost rebounds, bad hands it seems to me.
phdsteve – Dec 17, 2008 12:18 pm
Re: Raptors-PHX trade. Perhaps you could correct me, but doesn’t the PHX team owner Sarver(?) hate BCs guts .. and wouldn’t do anything to help BC?
Here are the rebounding leaders:
Howard-14.1
Biedrins-12.0
Camby-11.7
Murphy-11.1
Okafor-11.0
Bogut-10.8
Duncan-10.8
Lee-10.6
Al Jefferson-10.1
Brand-10
Yao-9.9
Bosh-9.9
Dwight Howard averages 14 rebounds per game.. and about 400 when playing the Raptors.
Yes this is true Flux, Howard is averaging 14. And to assert that any Raptor is in the same class as Howard is preposterous!
Here’s the thing..it’s not about one guy, really. The point is with that many 7 footers.. they should be averaging WAY more rebounds. They should be destroying teams. But, they are getting freaking worked!!!!! Twin Towers? Do yourself a favour.. go look at the numbers the Twin Towers averaged..ALONE!!
Khan,
The problem with your ANSWER is that it’s never ever going to be tested. Bargs is not going to replace O’Neal (let alone see him relegated to 4th big status) and JG and JM are not going to start beside each other. In a way it’s a nice scenario because you have a hypothesis that is more than likely never going to be proved or disproved, thus you will never be shown to be wrong (or right, though I think “wrong” is more likely, IMHO). Lots of fodder for internet chats, little chance of being tested on the court.
I don’t think Triano would have a completely fair chance unless it was from the beginning of the season in training camp. I do believe in him though, and even if does succeed, let’s see if Colangelo still cans him to get his own coach. We all know how bad Smitch winning COY was for BC :p
Giving Leo an extension?
NGGNGNGNNNNGGGGGGGG THAT MAKES MY EYE ACHE
Scott G:
re: AP as the back-up PG
Years and years ago players like Ron Harper, Paul Pressey & Phil Chenier, etc., showed the hoops world that there are several advantages to using someone like Mr. Parker in this role, in the NBA, including simple stuff just like what you said, e.g. good spacing, feeding the ball relatively easily to an interior player and knocking down the occasional perimeter shot.
There is nothing wrong with those things … in addition to [i] posting-up smaller opponents and creating instantaneous mismatches, left & right, with a simple UCLA cut; and [ii] the benefits that come with improved REBOUNDING.
In general, Dribbling skills, at the PG-spot are highly over-rated in the NBA game.
um…have i been watching a different AP? this is ANTHONY PARKER, of the toronto raptors, we’re talking about, right? just checking.
Jbar,
Actually …
Calderon-Moon-Graham-O’Neal-Bosh
was the 5-Man Unit that closed the deal in the W vs Indiana … so the FACT IS … 4/5ths of that starting group I’ve suggested has already played together successfully this season.
Who knows …
i] Once Hump returns from his injury
and
ii] O’Neal gets hurt again [hopefully this doesn't happen at all],
and
iii] If Bargnani continues to struggle,
and
iv] The Raptors’ organizational representatives just keep reading my blog,
then that line-up I’ve suggested might actually be used for more minutes by this team, this season.
Afterall … who really knew that the Raptors were going to be well under .500 at this point of the season, would have fired Sam Mitchell before Christmas, and would have begun to call into question the actual ability of their .200 hitter GM to right the good ship Raptor this season, given what’s transpired here since Feb/2006?
Huh? … Who really knew ALL THAT, in advance? : )
Anything is possible. Anyone can win. That’s why you play Pro-Line, right?
Re: Using AP at the PG position…
That’s not going to do much to improve the Raptors NOW, let alone the damage it will do to Roko’s development. Roko needs more burn, not less.
We need our guards to pick up the rebounding slack. The Raptors average about 44 rebs per game, We need to see that number rise to just about 48-50, consistently. Between parker, calderon, moon, graham we need to see about about 16-20 rebs per game with bosh, oneal and bargs getting about 25-30.
BBD,
If the Raptors want to make the playoffs this season … then, Mr. Ukic will need to get less burn, not more; and the only player on this squad right now, who can adequately handle the duties of a back-up PG in this league, other than Jose Calderon, just happens to be Anthony Parker.
Unless the Raptors add a veteran back-up PG, like Mateen Cleaves [for example] … which is something I believe they should have done in the summer months … then AP is it, unfortunately.
Yes, Ukic is improving … but, nowhere near fast enough to warrant increased use this season on a team that is trying its best to make it to the 2nd Round of the Playoffs.
Khandor,
I agree with your points, but I don’t think AP helps this team into the playoffs at the backup PG position. Imagine AP and Moon on the floor at the same time in the backcourt…terrible ball handling skills and a recipe for disaster. Or worse, Parker and Kapono handling the ball!
I agree that the problem stems from BC not addressing the PG situation.
Also Khan,
You wrote that,
If the Raptors want to make the playoffs this season … then, Mr. Ukic will need to get less burn, not more;
You seem to be implying that Ukic is costing the Raptors games…but he is not.
“This team won’t win 30 games.. no freaking way.” – Flux
I have difficulty detecting sarcasm in print… but if you are serious, I have to ask where you get that premise from?
I mean, the Raps have had the 2nd hardest schedule so far (that may be outdated, but I think its close enough) … and are currently on pace for a record of 34-48.
Dan, c’mon man… are we going to nit pick here? 30 34..tell me what’s the difference? And let’s consider the way this team is playing… effortless, mindless, embarrassing, complete garbage bball. The season gets longer, the mileage on the players higher. When any team we play, decides to turn it on, after effin around for the 1st couple of qs, we fill our diapers. What is there to hang any hope on? What has this team done to make you think thing are going to drastically change? Teams smell blood as soon as they see us on their schedule, guys are looking for career nights or breaking records. We are a doormat.. that is all.
Khan:
Sure, there is a great precedent for using wings at PG in the NBA, since the shot clock is short, and most teams have players other than their PG who need the ball in their hands to make plays. Even this year, someone like Steven Jackson comes to mind.
However, I don’t think AP’s ball handling skills are even up to that standard. I think he’d be subjected to a lot of pressure, and couldn’t handle it. Further, as BBD noted, our other wings aren’t exactly skilled with the dribble, which places even more pressure on the PG. (UNLIKE those teams you referenced with Harper, etc, which had multiple ballhandlers on the floor)
I actually think Roko will be okay this year. He didn’t play at all for a number of games, so he really hasn’t seen that much court time. At the same time, you’re absolutely right that he will make some missteps along the way.
I just don’t think it is as clear cut as you, but I certainly see your point of view.
People always underrate mental toughness and confidence in the game of basketball.
Ever hear the saying, “hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard”
This can apply to the New York Knicks who despite not having any superstars or even all stars, there always competing each and every game. They have a desire to compete because they want to be a good team. That’s mental toughness and heart.
The Raptors don’t have that. They go into games playing not to loose instead of playing to win. And its all on the personal not the coach. When your team is made up of players from unknown Leagues around the world and a lot of mild mannered men who don’t loose there temper, why would they care if they loose? Nice guys never hold grudges.
I also think that Roko is simply a jump shot away from being a pretty dangerous guard in this league. Everyone needs to remember Jose’s first season with the Rap’s when he had no jump shot and no decision making skills. Plus, he still has problems defending. Contrast that with Roko, who has shown much better decision making than Caldron’s rookie year, and a better first step than Jose had (not better than Jose had last year though). Also, Roko is longer and taller and should be able to be better defensively that Jose, as his lateral quicks are better.
Therefore, I believe that Roko has a much higher ceiling than Jose (not saying he will be better, but definitely has the potential to be) and deserves more playing time to cultivate his skills, rather than gambling on AP who only brings a better jump shot, and the ability to post up smaller guards (not really his strength, although it would be fun to watch him shoot over them with his crazy elevated jumpers that he loves so much). But imagine AP trying to penetrate and create for his team…he can’t even do that now, let alone when the pressure is on him to do so.
BBD – definitely agree with this POV regarding Roko. The guy clearly has talent, and already looks so much better than his first few appearances.
Joseph, this is pretty much what I am saying. I watch the other teams with losing records play and this mfs are bringing it. Every night!
The Raptors are going thru the motions, play by play. No overall game plan, just “hey, let’s try and win this trip down the floor, maybe they’ll all add up to a win at the end”. And then when the other team starts ballin.. it’s like: “oh well, we tried”
But the important thing is Jose is doing his three finger salute after shooting a 3 and JO is punching the air after some useless call goes in his favor, while CB4 is sitting on the bench laughing his ass off.
This is the worst team in the NBA, by a mile, I don’t care what the stats say.
Aand the “Roko is an All Star in the making” train needs to stop right now, it’s only a matter of time before his “game” is figured out, when he exposed into the fouling, turnover machine that he is.
Colangelo believes that this current team is good enough to make noise in the playoffs. His entire plan banks on the Raptors staying competitive with the current roster since he’s very knowingly maxed out the salary cap and doesn’t have wiggle room to make any moves. Whether you agree with him on that point is a different matter, as phdsteve pointed out in his first article, Colangelo is a fairly stubborn man who has a history of waiting a little too late before acting on his mistakes. I think he should acknowledge that the roster he thought was good enough in the summer is not in fact so and ask the board’s approval for acquiring a player that can at least give the Raptors a 6th seed in the East.
If the goal is to convince Bosh to resign by showing him a winning atmosphere, it’s going to fail regardless of whether we miss the playoffs or get executed in the first round. Although this team MIGHT be good enough to make it to the playoffs, it can’t win once there so the entire exercise becomes redundant. Either we have to be good enough to win a playoff series or we should be bad enough so that we develop whatever young talent we have and get a player via lottery. Being between the two is the worst situation for the Raptors and their fans.
If Colangelo thinks that is the case, then I wonder why he was so successful in Phoenix.Did his dad have final say on player related issues? How does the man who has worked for the NBA since he was 10 years old in Phoenix helping his dad so no little about the game in regards to having an eye for talent and building a team with no defense or rebounding and lack of mental toughness?
Seriously, you guys are looking for things that are not there, riding the hope train to nowhere. Riddle me this, out of all the Euro players that have come here or former NBA ers, how come they have not registered on any other teams radar? This amazing talent of this franchise to pick up players no one in their right mind wants, is mind blowing.
“Being between the two is the worst situation for the Raptors and their fans.”
Oh no no Sir, this is the perfect situation for the Raptors/MLSE. That is EXACTLY where they want to be.
Priceless:
http://hardwoodparoxysm.blogspot.com/2008/12/its-not-everyday-you-get-new-franchise.html
And identify your individual Raptors. Fun stuff. I see lots of red.
http://flickr.com/photos/23744547@N02/3114942913/
Exactly Fluxland
Moon
Parker
Humphries
Oneil
Garbajosa
Kapono
Delfino
Jawai
None of these players were on other teams radar. Not 1. We were the only team to sign them and even scout them. How can we be a championship team when we look for players no one wants? Dumars was more then happy to get rid of Delfino. Sloan was happy to dump Humphries.
Well Flux, I had a response all set up but instead I’ll say this.
All those teams you watch that give it night in and night out and have losing records? Where do you see improvement coming from?
Whereas the Raptors, if you say they do not ‘bring it’ every night… what if they started to? An area where the team could improve.
The Raptors have a new coach. Sam wasn’t the main problem, but he was one. So maybe there is some slight improvement to be made there when the new system is in place?
You asked me: have I seen anything to suggest this team will drastically improve?
Well, if they are playing as drastically bad and without effort as you make them out to be, then I have seen something that suggests this team COULD improve. Unlike the other bottom feeders already giving their all, and DOING THEIR BEST.
This popped up under Latest Web Articles:
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=10959
Antoine Walker? Are we that desperate?
Don’t forget Will… I mean, that guy, he’s a freking game changer that one. You know, if you are planning on losing the game. And then of course the latest gem of gems, the NBA singing of the year, Jake ” the missing piece to the championship” VowhatverhislastnameisIdontcaretospellitright.
“This is the worst team in the NBA, by a mile, I don’t care what the stats say.” – Flux
Between this and you trying to characterize the discussion as “roko is an all-star in the making”, I’m getting dizzy from all the hyperbole.
Roko will never be an all-star. But, that’s not to say he can’t help the raps.
And if you really think we’re the worst team in the L, “by a mile”, you need to re-up your league pass subscription and watch some of the other teams out there.
I forgot to add Bargnani and will solomon, Hassan Adams. What a poor display of talent. Its rediculous that any GM would assemble a team with so many losers.
Bryan C a genius?
Memphis has a bunch of talent, so does Okalhoma, Dont let there record fool you, these players can ball its just that they play in a tough conference. They are high energy teams and very athletic.
In my honest opinion, and Ive been watching alot of teams play even the losing ones, We cannot beat any team in a playoff series in the L.
Flux – check your expectations. Nobody should be following the Raptors if they want a team that goes out to try to win the title every year. I think the only season we set out to win something big was the year after we got booted against Philly. Next year there was legit talk of an EC appearance and maybe more. Since then, the franchise’s goal has not been to win an NBA title, it has been to get gradually better and this season is no different.
Nobody on this forum is retarded enough to argue that Will Solomon and Jake Voshkul are the last pieces of the puzzle so it shouldn’t even be brought up in that context, even jokingly. I think we all agree that we’re not a very good team and that for us to be competitive a lot of things need to go right and so far not much is. I think the ball’s in Colangelo’s court and I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t make another move because he’s got to be blind to not see that the current group of players are headed for a first round exit in the best case.
I think those of you who think Bosh should be traded for young talent and that we should start the rebuilding process in earnest are underestimating how negatively this organization will be perceived around the NBA if that were to happen. I see no other way of improving this team other than crossing the luxury tax, if not at the deadline, then in the summer.
Arse, I say bring the Shimmy Shake to the ACC. BC must be picking these guys by their in game celebrations.
Scott, yeah, I mean the guy can dribble, so he SHOULD be able to help.
I’m all up on my league pass, homey. I watch A LOT of games. I always have. Beside the NY Knicks last year, who by the way, were doing it on purpose…I cannot think of a team that plays with less heart and more fugazzi then this bunch of pathetic excuse of players. Collectively, they make me sick. 10 minutes without a bucket, really? 3 7 footers getting out rebounded 90 percent of the time? And the fans base spitting on Smitch (8-9) but giving Jay (2-5) a pass on everything, FANTASTIC!!! It is beyond effed up how EVERY SINGLE thing that went wrong was sam sam sam, now it players players players AND AND AND what’s worst if goes between Oh man Bargs is an All Star, damn JKilla is sick to trade that POS..cot dayum Kapono, he sucks.
Memphis is outrageous with talent. OKC is much better then their record and THEY BRING IT man..they don’t even play like they’ve only won two games. I could go on… believe what you want. Every single team with a worse record then the Raps have more heart and passion then these clowns. I have no idea what you are looking at.
Joseph – OKC is 2-24, and has both wins against western conf teams. That leaves them 0-11 against the East. Talk about the energy and athleticism all you want but the bottom line is that they are currently on pace to be one of the worst teams in NBA history. But what about teams like Sacto (0-5 vs east), G-State (2-10 vs east), Clips (1-3 vs east) and Minny (2-4 vs east, but 4-20 overall)? Not to mention Charlotte and Washington. Let’s not overstate the situation.
Flux – I agree with just about everything you said.
But, W’s and L’s aren’t awarded for “bringing it” unless that translates into a favorable final score. Having said that, I agree that the Raps are absolutely maddening to watch. But worst team in the L? Don’t think so.
Arse, I am the one claiming the barely win 30 games, no? I think mine are as low as they can go.
What’s beyond upsetting, is that BC is claiming this roster is a contender and that some of us had to eat a lot of crap for disagreeing over the summer and ever since. Now, tell me of a BC signing that has changed the course of any of his teams.
I am not one to believe in change until I see it and see it consistently. And same with the luxary tax.. something MLSE has never, ever, ever done. NEVER. You think in this economy that is about to change? F they’ll come out with a different uniform before that happens.
Bosh is gone, think what you want.. read about him bitching about the cold weather on his blog, draw your own conclusions. He has checked out, it’s a done deal. It make perfect sense to trade him now, get what we can.
Scott, Sacto had to eat a lot of injuries at the start of the year, nothing was expected of GS at all – you think missing Monta, as well, has something to do with their record? Bobcats are balling, no question and just made some trades and J Rich JUST got back.. ask me they are much much better then that record and the Wiz, again when your 2 best players go down.. c’mon now, none of those teams are in the same boat as Toronto and their records are not that far off from ours. I’d be willing to give the Raps the injury excuse, but none of them happened for a long period or before the start of the season.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=mem
I like Gay, Mayo, Gasol, Warrick, and generously, Ross. What else is outrageously talented about that roster??
And Arthur too, I suppose.
You don’t like Arthur or Conley? I’ll take both of them. And Buckner gives them the vet they need. Gay, Mayo, Warrick ALONE are more talented then 75% of the Raptors. THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS. C’mon man, the “talent” on this team is greatly exaggerated. A backup wanna be All Star PG, a washed up C, a gutless PF, over the hill SG… i goes on and on.
So 6 player you say… is that not enough for you to see how much better thy are then that record? You can account their “bad” record on 4 rookies, no? Plus Crittenton is not garbage at all.. but he’s no longer with them.
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Scott G
Dec 17, 2008 4:58 pm | Permalink
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=mem
I like Gay, Mayo, Gasol, Warrick, and generously, Ross. What else is outrageously talented about that roster??
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Already better then the Raptors. I dont say Toronto because Toronto is the greatest city. The Raptors are the team I don’t like.
The Raps have Bosh and Calderon and that’s it. Memphis has those players you just mentioned. There better then we are and would beat us in a playoff series
If… IF… the Raps don’t make the playoffs, I know we sure could use a nice lottery draft pick to help retool for the ‘Bosh decision season’: 2009/10.
Game Note: RAPS vs. MAVS ON T(B)SN-2… so for those of you who don’t have it yet, hit our link to the LIVE FEED, or, find yourselves at downtown Philthy McNasty’s!!
Also, I want to give a HAPPY BIRTHDAY shout out to by g/f, Sandra, – HEY BIBI!!! – so I’ll be at home catching the GIAH recast with her. ;D
wazuppppppppppppppp Sandra.
And collectively the Grizz have 29 years of NBA experience, not counting Walker… the Raptors have 42 of NBA and probably 20 plus in Euro experience. You are telling me the difference in their records should be 2 games?
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY SANDRA!!
James, doesn’t matter who we draft.. Bosh will pull a VC, he won’t have the patience to wait for some guy to develop his game, while LeBoom and Wade are waiting for him. This team needs to do something and something huge NOW, not to mention next year. And there is no way he is dumb enough to see that’s not happening. He has checked out already, and I don’t blame him one bit. Save his body for a real team.
I emailed Cam Stewart from The Score and I asked him if he thinks we can we beat Memphis or New York or Sacramento in a playoff series?
He responded with: Those teams mentioned have guards and wings that would run circles around ours and have more athleticism. Add Bosh doesn’t have a killer instinct it would be difficult to grind out 7 games.
Memphis in 5
Sacramento in 6
New York in 5
It is what it is folks
I agree Bosh has checked out. He is 100 times better then what he has shown. Put him on the Caveliers right now, today and they’re the best team in the League.
Joseph, I was thinking about the signings.. how about Luke Jackson or Andre Barrett? PJ Tucker? Fred Jones? who else? Dixon? where are all these All Stars?
You know I rather have Dixon as the backup then Roko. He was a feisty player who played with heart and with energy. His chucking could have been worked on with Triano.
But as a basketball fan, not a Toronto Raptors fan who are the better players:
a) Gay, Mayo, Warrick
b) Johnson, Smith, Horford, Williams
C) Lee, Harrington, Nate Robinson
D) Durant, Westbrook,
E) Wade, Chalmers, Beasley
F) Kopono, Parker, Moon
Wing play wins you a playoff series. Bosh cant do anything with F). I wouldn’t destroy my body and limit my durability for the future
None of the following guys are wing players: Warrick, Smith, Horford, Lee, Harrington, Beasley, Chalmers
As for the blanket statement that “wing play wins you a playoff series”, I can’t say I agree that’s always true.
I don’t even know what we’re debating anymore – the bottom line is that the Raps are NOT the worst team in the L.
They play SF all the time and can play diff positions. Watch the games before you talk out of your ass
Do they? Of all those guys, Beasley, Smith and Warrick are the only ones that see any time whatsoever at the 2/3.
And let’s not start with the name-calling, okay?
khandor Identicon Icon khandor
Dec 17, 2008 10:47 am | Permalink
1. Bosh comprehends the nuances of Triano’s offensive system just fine. Just because he isn’t scoring as many points as he did under Mitchell doesn’t mean he is struggling in this new system. The fewer points CB4 has to score … to secure a victory [ala @ NJ] … the better off his team will eventually be.
2. The team’s current rebounding woes are rooted in the play of three specific Raptors: I] Jason Kapono; II] Jermaine O’Neal; and, III] Anthony Parker.
The answer to this problem has already been provided for you:
STARTERS: Calderon-Moon-Graham-Bargnani-Bosh
KEY SUBS: Parker & Humphries
SITUATIONAL SUBS: Ukic, Kapono, O’Neal
EXTRAS: Solomon, Adams, Jake V. & Jawai
If you choose to reject it … so be it, that’s your business. Doesn’t mean that THE ANSWER is incorrect/wrong.
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Because that will win us a championship right?
If I am Bargnani I realize that I’m a target for the media and for pissed off fans and need to get my act together and prove that I should be the #1 pick. If I were him, I focus only on rebounding and defense that’s it. There’s enough offense to go around and what we really need from him is to box out, and bang with players in the paint. 7 feet tall and cant grab more then 2 rebounds a game?
BBD,
Ukic [or Solomon] as the back-up PG for this team has already cost them W’s this season, and there will be more ahead the longer it’s allowed to continue. I like Roko a great deal but he’s not ready for this gig just yet. Neither would Calderon have been ready either in his first year in the league. Difference is, this team is not supposed to lose 55 games like THAT team did.
There is more than one way to play the back-up PG spot in this league, especially if you happen to be 6-6, 215, with a solid jumpshot.
Thanks for seeing my POV, even when you don’t happen to agree with it. Reasonable people can always agree to disagree.
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Dave,
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re: Because that will win us a championship right? – by Dave
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No … THAT will not win the Raptors a NBA championship, anytime soon.
What it will do is exactly what I said it will do … i.e. solve the current Rebounding problem for this Raptors team.
When it comes to the problem of the Dinos ever winning a NBA championship, that’s a different story … which requires a number of different things, including but certainly not limited to:
* A different Ownership Group
* A different President/GM
* A different set of Support Staff
* A different Coaching Staff
* A number of different players from the ones on the current roster
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IMO … a TOP NOTCH NBA GM would, in fact, sit tight in this specific situation for the Raptors.
It’s going to be very interesting to see what Bryan Colangelo does next. : )
[i.e. Option 1 - If he really does know what he's doing and his goal actually is to bring a NBA championship to Toronto, then, he will sit tight. Option 2 - If he really doesn't know what he's doing and/or his goal actually is something other than THAT, then, he will make a significant trade in the not too distant future.]