OK, has anyone here heard of this thing called “boxing out”?It doesn’t even register with me when this team builds a 16 point lead, they could be up by 32 and I’d still be worried if there were more than 5 minutes left in the game. Why? Because when it matters the most, when the shit’s on the line, when it’s time to weigh your nuts, when it’s time to step up and prove your worth, we always come up short. We choke, we fold, we wet our beds, we shit our pants, we just don’t come through. We start doing the dumbest things you can possibly do with the game on the line, we shy away from taking the big shot, we’re unsure of ourselves, we take terrible shots, we become passive, we bail out defenses, we allow ourselves to get dominated, we don’t accept the challenge of rebounding, we play scared and most of all, we don’t play to win, we play not to lose.
The Raptors jumped out to a big first quarter lead because of their defense which fueled the offense, Jose Calderon was hitting zone-busting threes, Jermaine O’Neal was getting paint-scores, Jamario Moon was moving without the ball for scores and it all seemed alright. It looked like we’d be getting a comfortable home win against a team that we’re supposed to beat before we lost on Wednesday against a team we’re supposed to lose to. This team is so terribly mediocre that I’ve readjusted my expectations to be just as mediocre as them, unfortunately they can’t even live up to the low standard set for them. Just as everyone in the live chat had feared, the Nets started chipping away at the lead as our defense grew softer and softer and New Jersey increased their defensive pressure and started doing smarter things on offense. Hot starts are anomalies, you can’t stay hot for the entire game and once the hot-streak is over, you still have to play solid and sound basketball in order to sustain the lead you worked so hard to build.
Once everybody had cooled off and the defense had loosened up, we needed our big gun, Chris Bosh who had had no part in our early success, to start taking control and keep the Nets at bay. Just like how Vince Carter led the charge to bring the Nets back, Chris Bosh needed to lead the charge to keep the Raptors in control of this game. And what does he do? 4-15 FG. Oh, don’t worry though, he did make 8-10 FTs so I guess it’s all good and he did his part, eh? No!! I’m tired of watching the Raptors look to him to deliver points in the paint and him responding by taking the easy way out. This team needs a go-to guy and if anyone thinks Bosh is that player, they’re wrong. I don’t blame him though, he’s caught up in his own hype and the expectations from fans are too high, he’s just not good enough to deliver in clutch situations against set defenses. We knew this two years ago when he faced the Nets in the playoffs and we know this today when we lose to an entirely different Nets team at home in December. We were 6-14 in games decided by 5 points or less last season for a reason, it’s because when it comes time to score, we can’t.
Devin Harris took a night off in New Jersey on Friday but he was back torching Jose Calderon again when it mattered, 16 of his 20 points came in the fourth quarter. The guy went on a 9-0 run on his own to start the fourth for the Nets erasing the 9 point lead the Raptors were nursing like a hot potato. In that stretch Parker, Roko, Bargnani, Calderon and O’Neal all missed shots and our leader, Bosh, didn’t even take one. When he finally took one after crawling out from under his shell with the Raptors down 2, you guessed it, it was an 18 foot jumper which he missed. All this happened with Carter on the bench so when he finally came in he was fresher than a spring daisy and immediately converted a three-point play to hammer another nail in our coffin. Soon after Jose Calderon had snapped Harris’ run with a couple FTs, it was Ryan Anderson’s turn to go on a 7-0 run to ice the game. All in all the Nets went on a 23-4 to start the fourth quarter, is there a greater sign of choking?
Blaming it entirely on Bosh calling in dead isn’t fair. Rebounding numbers like these should be plastered on practice walls just as a reminder of the degree of humiliation. -16 total rebounds, -11 offensive rebounds and -24 second chance points. That right there’s your game, aren’t you glad we signed Jake Voshkul to help the situation? Andrea Bargnani and his 2 rebounds shouldn’t be able to sleep today, there’s no way a 7-footer can live with himself after his team got crushed on the boards and he only got two rebounds. Imagine walking into the dressing room like a stiff with your two rebounds in your travel pouch and everybody’s got the boxscore in their hands and they look at you like, “WTF man, two rebounds? Jeebus H Krist man, you’re useless!” If Jamario Moon can grab 9 rebounds in 28 minutes, he should be able to grab more than 2 in 23. I mean, how much do you have to pay someone to put a body on Ryan Anderson? Jermaine O’Neal and Chris Bosh might have 6 and 9 rebounds but that doesn’t count how many rebounds the 38% shooting Nets peppered on our defensive glass – we only grabbed 67% of the defensive rebounds available today. That’s terrible!
Ryan Anderson coming in and grabbing a rebound over Anthony Parker (0 rebs), Jermaine O’Neal and Chris Bosh at 1:40 of the fourth quarter was perhaps the most embarrassing moment of the night. We had cut the lead from 12 to 8 and needed a defensive stop and got it as Vince missed a tough jumper, but we couldn’t come up with the rebound because Anderson eluded Parker, went around O’Neal and got it as Bosh was ball-watching. In addition to giving up the hustle rebounds, we also fail to execute simple box-outs and lose track of our man easier than anyone else in the league, our guards are the guiltiest party. Our entire team came up with 7 offensive rebounds, Carter and Hassell alone came up with 8. Their guards hit the glass and ours didn’t. Rebounding is a team effort, not something you look at your bigs to do on their own. Calderon and Parker rarely go in the paint to contest a rebound which is inexcusable since we don’t even run the fast break and there’s no reason for them to be standing behind the three-point line waiting for an outlet.
This was exactly like the Nets game from two weeks ago, Raptors build an early lead, fall into a false sense of security, Nets chip away as Vince and Harris recover from slow starts and by the fourth quarter they’re firing on all cylinders and we’re struggling to string two passes together. The first and third quarters were excellent for us because we played high-energy basketball and were active on defense, Jamario Moon and Jason Kapono (runs around more screens than Reggie Miller, must be tired poor chap) were hitting their shots and our defense fed off of our offensive success. But you can’t rely on role players to pull you through the entire game, they’ll pull you through a stretch of play at best, after that you have to rely on your big guns. NJ had those big guns in Harris and Carter, we don’t. I have to give props to Jamario Moon for playing as well as he has all season, he was contesting for rebounds, moving without the ball and probably could’ve had at least a couple more alley-oops if Calderon had the ability to find people on the fly.
The Nets realized that other than Yi, they didn’t have to help out anyone when defending the Raptors. If they apply enough ball pressure at the point of attack, stick to Jason Kapono and check Bosh, they’ll be able to contest every shot we take. The way Jose Calderon and the Raptors run their offense doesn’t dislocate defensive players from their positions by much, the Nets were hardly ever scrambling to stop our offense as they never had to deal with dribble-penetration or providing consistent help to anyone. Thus the defensive assignment for them became simple: play solid main-to-man defense and fight through screens, they’ve got enough physical presence and athleticism to do both and don’t need to do anything special to deal with the non-threatening Raptors offense. We on the other hand have to deal with dribble-penetration, East-West ball movement and the threat of Brook Lopez (very good player) down low.
Jose Calderon’s point guard play was bad tonight, we already know what Harris did but his own passing play was the worst it’s been all season. If there’s one thing you can rely on Jose for is to take care of the ball and last night he uncharacteristically turned it over 5 times. He made some very bad forced passes which showed that he wasn’t reading the defense as he should. Harris got a key steal on him in the fourth quarter and he was unable to find the cutters that were there. Moon was always active going East-West on the baseline and Calderon only found him once. The problems delivering an entry-pass into the post continue as Jose, Bosh and O’Neal just aren’t on the same page in terms of angles. Ukic’s overall play in limited minutes was slightly better but that’s not saying much, he’s too raw and not enough of a scoring threat to have a real impact on any game.
Our bench got outscored 35-14 as Joey Graham was a non-factor and Parker sucked as usual (0 points). Bargnani had 10 points and managed to get fouled a few times which put him at the line where he got 6 of his 10 points. I guess he was more aggressive today than he was in the past but I’m getting tired of reporting baby steps of success for him. It’s almost embarrassing man, it’s like, “Today Bargnani dribbled the ball across the lane without travelling!”..Applause! Clap, clap, clap! Oh, you can see that he’s getting better, he’s going to be awesome…”Today Bargnani drove to the rim, he didn’t finish but the move was prettttyyyy aggresssssivvvee”…Woot! Woot! Baby steps are nice but how about a 25/10 game once in a while just to keep us hard, eh?
Since Jay Triano took over we’ve seen the Raptors take small steps in the right direction, last night we saw them take their first big step back. Raptors lose to the Nets for the second time at the ACC. This truly remains Vince Carter’s house. We’re 0-2 on this three game home stand with Dallas coming to town on Wednesday. If we can’t take care of the Nets at home, how can we possibly deal with Dallas?
Quick site news: We’ve added a contributing writer to our unpaid overworked staff, please welcome phdsteve. He’ll swing by later with a post, please give him a warm welcome.
56 Raps
I agree with you about getting frustrated with how we evaluate Bargnani. And this is hard coming from a guy who’s been a fan of his skillset since he was drafted and who wants to see him succeed really badly. But the more I follow this team, the more I think Andrea’s presence has contributed to a culture of mediocrity that’s enveloped the team. The franchise has operated under the assumption that Bargnani will be a cornerstone for this roster at some point, and they’ve stubbornly maintained it even when the results simply haven’t justified it. As a result, we see everyone surrounding the team desperately trying to find some positive with Andrea.
That’s not conducive to a winning environment though. You typically have that attitude with a young, rebuilding team more concerned with player development rather than team success. With the JO trade, Colangelo went “all-in” and signalled that this team is meant to succeed now. Effort, hustle, aggressiveness, intensity, (insert whatever vague adjective you want): those are all essential for success, but they have to culminate into execution. At some point, Andrea has to get it in his head that he ain’t shit until he’s consistently executing up to his abilities.
I’m (almost) speechless. I thought watching Bosh get stuffed by Sean f*cking Marks would be the low point of the season–and now this.
Every game previous to this I thought I saw some positives (Yesterday it was defensive rebounding, the game before that many things were good outside of the rebounding), and then, nothing.
I just think this team has conditioning issues. Why else the stellar play at the beginning of quarters and the lack of execution of even basic plays later? Why such poor effort on the back to back?
That was one thing triano made clear when he was hired, and I think he meant it to mean we would have trouble running consistently as a team until we got the habit down…but it seems to have taken the starch out of our jumpshots despite the quick sub patterns even worse than he thought. It has improved the role player’s games….the graham’s, the moon’s the roko’s..but the key guys (Calderon and Bosh) are having trouble finding their niche in it.
Either triano has to try to slow down more for these “old fogies” or they have to make a trade for a dominant 3 who can rebound. As sad as it is, I have come to the realization it is time to trade Bargs and parker for a three.
Perhaps Jefferson of the Bucks?
Man…this team is so dissapointing.
chutney,u need to replace bargs with bosh….the team isnt taking the lead from bargs,they are taking the lead from their supposed best player who got his nuts handed to him again tonight…..bosh is soft,he really is,he takes d possessions off instead of trying to use his length he shies away from contact.he rarely uses all his fouls and as the supposed leader of this team he sets the tone.dont get me wrong i love bosh hes a great guy,but his skillset isnt really that great.if he isnt aggressive on both ends of the floor hes useless.you cant have that from your best player.every team has its undisputed leader.is bosh ours?……..bargs and bit players get way to much slack its time for jo our 20 million dollar man or bosh to step the fuck up, or for jo to say fuck it and bitchslap bosh into playing like a man and take over this team.we lack leadership on the floor….im thrilled with triano as the bench boss but somebody has to be a man out there and lead by example…..bosh barked out order for the first 3 games of the seaon,we all remarked how we could hear him yelling and we killed it our first 3 games.first sign of trouble bosh is refusing to join the huddle in timeouts,staring off into space all glossy eyed,you dont hear a peep from the softee anymore.who’s team is this,bargs?ap’s?moons?kaponos?…….BOSH NEEDS TO MAN THE FUCK UP…..or jo has to or were going nowhere.
i still maintain that Bosh is a superstar. Really, I do. But, unless your name is Tim Duncan, I think it is very hard for a power forward to put a team on his back and win. Duncan is, in my opinion, the greatest PF to ever play the game (all you Garnett fans can suck my balls), and even he needs Parker and Ginobili and the best man-to-man defender in the game (albeit dirty) to succeed. He can put a team on his back for stretches, not not in the way Kobe or LeBron or Jordan have been able to do. I am sure Khandor or another blogger will give me ample evidence from history to the contrary regarding PF’s. But, look even at Garnett. He could not turn Minnesota into a playoff team, and neither can Bosh with the Raps. It is too difficult a task. maybe he knows this? Is this why he tries to play like a #2, hanging around the 3pt line? I dunno.
I do know that Bosh has been playing mediocre, yes. In fact, more like ass. This is definitely true. But until there is a solid #2 or #3 that can make cuts and open up the floor, Bosh will only get contested looks. Every time he has the ball, he has to beat one or two players – never does the PF get the same kind of daylight as the 1, 2 or 3. This is not the recipe for success, having our franchise player consistently expected to make tough shots. There is no one reason, or one cure for Bosh’s choking on the massive balls of tougher teams. But maybe, there is too much put on his back going into these games. We expect that from our superstar, but maybe he needs more help to provide a consistent threat that draws the attention from him. Mitchell had his game plan to either use Bosh as a diversion, or as the only player who should touch the ball. Both of these strategies end up signalling him out to the opposing team’s defence.
Now, Bosh is struggling. It is time for him to get back to drawing board. He needs to play smarter, know and find his teammates better, and get back to fundamentals. You won’t ever see Duncan going for 3’s. That just isn’t smart post up play.
I have said it before on this site: Calderon needs to get his driving game back. If he can’t do it, then he does not deserve to start. BC needs to look not for a backup, but for a starting PG. Maybe if Calderon were fighting for the no. 1 spot again, we would see some aggressiveness.
I really hope we do not pick up Marion. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but I think that his lax effort of late is the last thing this complacent Raps team needs. Settling for outside jumpers is the bane of this team’s existence, and I fear that this is what Marion would only bring.
I still maintain that it will take Bosh quite a bit longer before he can truly work within a proper offensive gameplan. The fact is that all of his NBA development up ’till now has occurred under the structureless, clueless gameplanning of Sam Mitchell. And as a result, he’s picked up quite a few bad habits.
On offense, he’s used to dominating ball possession even when it makes it harder for both him and his teammates to score. He doesn’t read the defense quick enough and he’s far too indecisive. He never truly diversified his offensive game, only bolstering skills that he already had.
Defensively, he doesn’t rotate quick enough and lets his man gain position before receiving a pass, far too easily. He never developed into the shotblocker that almost everybody thought he should’ve become coming out of college. He rebounds by going after the ball instead of first boxing out and ensuring his area on the court is secure.
These are habits that he needs to eliminate before he can resume playing up to his potential within a functional gameplan. The fact is that very few NBA coaches will tolerate some of what he’s grown accustomed to doing over the past 5 years.
What a coincidence that we both started our posts with the exact same first three words.
if you look at bosh’s play during the olympics, he was a jyd type. a hustle guy, a rebound guy,a d man, a worker a hustler.thats how he got his points thats how he earned acclaim from coaches and his peers and praise by the international media…..on our team he thinks hes a scorer with a primadonna attitude and a propensity to avoid the dirty work.
chutney, no.5, i agree.
remember when Phil Jackson pulled the reins in on Kobe, and made him work, and buy into the triangle offence? Jackson turned Kobe into the most well-rounded player in the NBA. Someone needs to work with Bosh.
Just because I think Bosh is a superstar, does not mean I think he is playing the way he should on a consistent level. It is more like, I think he is one or two moves away from being the consistent force he has shown himself to be at times. Right now, he looks completely out of sync, and the way to fix that is to work on his post moves, not on his long rage game. Leave that to the no. 2’s and 3’s even if they suck. it is not his job to take their shots.
bosh isnt a sg.he isnt a sf.so why is he playing like one?i dont ever want to see him take a 3 ever again or rely on his jumper.he’s a god damn pf and our leader and he needs to play like it every possession on both ends of the floor.
Keep Moon, Graham, Kapano, Oneal, And trade everyone else in this YMCA allstar team.. Bosh plays like he is gay/ Calderon doesnt care about nothing but his money where he will retire in Spain (make more chinese faces with friends and laugh it all the way to the bank). Parker seems like he is just bad luck and a turn over master. Bargniani has no skills at all. Ukich, Solomon, Humphries, Fat Jaimacan man about to have a heart attack, Oily white man we just got, who else am I missing NO ONE IMPORTANT GET RID OFF THESE LOSERS.. I would trade all of these so called NBA players for a bag of ketchup chips eh!
LOL at Alberts post. Chinease faces part
Three fuckin SEVEN footers,and they get schooled by a rook!!!I was secretly hoping that Jay would bring some balls to the table,but Bosh continues to do whatever the fuck he wants,continues to stall the offence by hanging on to the ball for 5 seconds at a time,oh,and takes threes !!!!
We all know that Bosh will be shooting 99% of the time after hanging on to the ball forever,doesn’t his teammates know that by now !!!!go to the rim,you lazy mother….
Bargs parking VC on his ass was classic…having said that ,I ‘m done with him,and BC’S upsides,when reviewing players skills…to Bargs defense he did not ask to go # 1.
As far as AP getting back into game shape,what did he miss a month !!!
Unless BC pulls the trigger on some kind of deal,we will not make the playoffs….Who would of thought,that I would be willing to dangle Mr. Bosh as trade bate !!!!
Outside of his start,the big 40 point games,that we lost,he has proven to me that he cannot win against winners,or loosers for that matter.
Blow this up ??? or blow a brain vessel!!!!!
Drive Bosh, Drive! Catch the pass and make your move! Don’t hesitate, don’t wait for the side to clear out, make your move. Drive to the hole, elevate and good things will happen. Take the shot if it’s there, take the foul if there’s contact or make the pass if you’re doubled. Offence starts with you… O’Neals got your back in the paint, Moon will be cutting when you make your move and your snipers are scattered in the field. Simple game.
I love this site … Raptors Republic kicks ass… We are some die hard fans that speak the truth and take no crap… If I was BC I would come to this site and check what the fans are saying…
All Raptor fans want is a championship.. Can we get the team needed to get this done already.. We dont want the tall lanky shaggy rasta fari man anymore.. We are sick of Bragniani (how the #($* do you spell this gresse balls name) He is our number worst pick.. Talk about a dream that gave us nightmares.. Calderon is just a guy who doesnt care.. You can tell by the way he talks ( We going to do it the good thing every game and we are lookin real good dis years as I can see it) Shut up and go back compadre.. Take the money and say adios.. Parker well he’s a jew.. unless you dont trow change on the floor he is not intrested..
And I am tired of talking #($) CAN WE GET SOME REAL TALENTED PLAYERS.. BOSH IS STILL TALKING ABOUT HIS GLORY DAYS OF THE OLYMPICS.. GOING UP TO ALLSTARS LIKE (HEY DOG REMEMBER ME !) They respond: Nah Dawg,,
Here’s what i started noticing about CB last year. He plays his game in the first q the same he plays in the 4th. He may have game where his feel is off. but his effort level doesn’t change on offense. Other players who may not be at his level 75% percent of the time, can be better than him 25% of the time in the fourth, when the games on the line and they move a bit faster, push a bit harder and shoot a little better.
I think CB’s stats will be good as long as he’s able to be the focal point and get a lot of touches. But I don’t think he’ll ever be a great playoff player or be a player who is game changing in the fourth Q. That is not meant to mean he sucks, but the worst part about it for a team he’s on, is that his stats warrant large sums of cash, which make it harder to surround him with the talent he’ll need to be successful. I hate to say it but I think a team like the Knicks or Blazers, who do not fear the luxury tax, would be the only teams CB will have a big chance for consistent playoff success.
If we could find that second guy, hey all the better, but it’s going to be hard if we have to go max contract for CB just to stay where we are.
Also, just a note, for some reason he closed if CB-4 website facebook page down. Maybe he didn’t like his “fans” telling him to play better D, which was happening a lot on the wall.
They way I look at it is, it’s hard to be optimistic when if we do what we seem to feel is the most important thing, lock up bosh in 2010, we go even deeper into our cap investment for years to come, which may make it harder to get to our ultimate goal.
If we keep CB we need to draft wings, and hope to get one right.
hoo, boy, let’s see. some positives…hmm. uh, moon played well, for the most part. JO got off to a good start. JK hit some shots. they seemed more inclined to push the ball.
and that’s about it.
why do i get the feeling that game wrap-ups are beginning to sound eerily similar? repeated deja vu…
why do i get the feelign that game wrap-ups are beginning to sound eerily similar? weird…
i don’t even know where to begin. i guess rebounding would be the obvious place. nets guards/wings outrebounded raps guards/wings 30-21. nets bigs outrebounded raps bigs 24-17; but 23 for the nets were spread amongst 3 guys (i’m not counting yi’s 1), while 15 were grabbed by just two raps (bosh & JO – bargs doesn’t count…for anything). that’s just not enough from your bigs.
offense looked fantastic…for about 5 minutes. i even saw jose throw an oop that didn’t hit the rim or backboard. of course, one other did, and another was about 8 feet too high, but i’m sure he’ll get it eventually.
that’s a pretty disgusting line there, mr. parker. complete oh-fer. wait, wait…nope, he had 2 TO’s & a foul. i especially liked the TO where he appeared to just hand the ball over.
bargnani – i’d like to pile on, but what’s the point? i’ve spent two years trying to defend the guy, trying to see what apparently is hidden somewhere deep inside him, but i’m done. fuck him. if they could get anything for him (which i hope is the ONLY reason he hasn’t been dealt yet), then pull the fucking trigger. the ‘intensity’ doesn’t mean shit if it only shows up every 3 months.
jack armstrong – you’re losing me, buddy. time to drop the reigns swirsk handed to you & get back to actual game analysis. you might think devlin’s too dry, and that you need to up the schtick quotient to appease our feeble minds, but just don’t. oh, and another thing…can you please refrain from using ‘great move’ when describing whatever the fuck it is bargnani’s doing in the post (that so clearly isn’t a ‘move’ or ‘great’)? thanks. i witnessed two such ‘great moves’ in last night’s game, and they both made me want to simultaneously wretch & throw the remote through the screen. i’ve seen better footwork/leaping ability in wheelchair basketball.
and yeah, i already know i’m going to hell.
Raptors suck fucking hairy ron jeremy balls.
>> You won’t ever see Duncan going for 3’s.
Except, of course, when it’s in overtime in the playoffs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0&fmt=6
“But you can’t rely on role players to pull you through the entire game, they’ll pull you through a stretch of play at best, after that you have to rely on your big guns. NJ had those big guns in Harris and Carter, we don’t.”
There you go. No go-to players on the Raps, those of you waiting for Bosh to become that will always remain disappointed, not many go-to PFs in the league. Duncan’s the only one I can think of. You need to be a skilled wing (PG/OG/SF) if you want to take the game over in the fourth, Jose struggles to make an entry pass, how can he deliver dimes?
David Moro – no comment on Bargnani? He’s still your boy, right?
“WILL REBOUND FOR FOOD”
josh – that’s how it should be in the NBA.
“i’ve seen better footwork/leaping ability in wheelchair basketball.”
************************************************************************
Wow that just set me up for a great day, lol thanks bud.
And sign josh to a 10-day contract dude seems hungry to hit the glass, he deserves Bargnani’s spot.
I am no longer watching Raptor games, until they trade someone, I’ll just rely on Arsenalist and his in depth summary, cheers.
Btw can anyone do a comparison of South American players and Euro players, just a straight stereotypical comparison so I can confirm if my suspicions are true.
I think Bosh is driving less because he does not want to get in JO’s way (now that he’s *starting* to find is offense, however inconsistent it may be)
Bosh is most effective when the bulk of his FG’s are drives that end with a lay-up or a call.
Jay should try shifting Bosh to the 5, where he can take it to the rim more often, and rebound harder, while putting JO at his natural position as Power Forward.
Jo has already said that Triano’s system is similar to what they did in Indy, I think it would make both of our bigs more effective.
Worth a shot, don’t you think?
lol @ josh
This year was only ever going to turn out well for the Raps if one of two things happened:
a) The ‘everything goes right’ scenario: Bosh and Calderon build on last year, Bargnani finally comes along, solid play from the bench and role players, we win a second round playoff series.
or
b) They suck. And they do indeed suck.
You see the other option is that they’re average, middle of the pack, and lose another first round playoff series. To my mind, that’s a far worse fate in this league. As I’ve been saying all year, what happens this year matters only in terms of development – this team will need at least 2-3 years to compete for real playoff success. What is important is the ability of the GM to respond to the needs of the club and fill in the missing pieces, and the worst possible thing that could have happened to this club (and still can I suppose) is to get caught up in the idea that the change needed to propel this team forward can come from within – it can’t, it won’t.
Instead, we now know that Bosh isn’t ready to be a superstar this year and may not be next year either (or ever) – and that’s crucial because it means we need to look for an alpha dog on the wings, not a Corey fucking Maggette.
We know that Bargnani is a bust. 3 years in the league and still shoots jumpers that you know before he even lets them go have no chance. And it’s a shame too, because if he could even shoot 45% his solid D would be enough to keep him around as a big off the bench.
We know O’Neal needs to be shipped out or paid about 6-7 mil per season (ie we’ve determined that his value isn’t all-star level and we can pay him accordingly, which in my opinion is a HUGE step forward).
Now consider what could have happened if the Raptors had another one of those middling seasons. We keep Bargs (who probably teases us with the occasional ‘breakout’ game – funny how 3 years into the league and that word still pops up from time to time), we eventually re-sign O’Neal to something insane like 10-12 mil per, and we bring in a complimentary wing player and fill out the bench. Congrats, that team just booked a second round loss every year for the next 5.
In my opinion the only remaining burning question for this team is whether it can win with Calderon. His contract says yes (ie you can surround him with a lot of other talent), but his defensive shortcomings and inability to create shots from broken plays and penetrations say no.
Regardless, at least we now know that this team needs significant changes. And really, I’d rather be 10-14 and know that change is needed than 14-10 and think that everything might just work out as long as we can get (insert any combination of Bosh, Bargs, Joey G, Moon, Kapono, Ukic, Parker, O’Neal, or Hump) playing well consistently.
I guess he was more aggressive today than he was in the past but I’m getting tired of reporting baby steps of success for him. It’s almost embarrassing man, it’s like, “Today Bargnani dribbled the ball across the lane without travelling!”..Applause! Clap, clap, clap! Oh, you can see that he’s getting better, he’s going to be awesome…”Today Bargnani drove to the rim, he didn’t finish but the move was prettttyyyy aggresssssivvvee”…Woot! Woot! Baby steps are nice but how about a 25/10 game once in a while just to keep us hard, eh?
Fukin right man. Armstrong and Devlin are picking out the smallest positives in his game and projecting it like its a major step forward. Yertu’s right too – he’s got no “great moves”, everything is forced and unnatural. The only thing natural in his game is when somebody kicks out to him for an open three, he looks right at home shooting that but he’s even missing that.
Stince – nice post but what do you suggest? Trade Bosh because he’s going to leave anyway in 2010? I think if this team doesn’t win playoff rounds in the next two years he’s definitely out and by the looks of things its not gonna happen. We need to get athletic, younger and get more talent at the wing positions. Lose the fake optimism and deal with reality, draft right, trade for young talent and become the Portland Trailblazers of three years ago. I’d say look at what you can get for Bosh, his value is high right now and Detroit could even part with Stuckey, Aamir Johnson right now. Just a thought.
Stince-great analysis. I have been very patient and optomistic with Barg’s over the past 3 seasons. I have been relatively pleased with his development and see a lot of potential in his game. I just can’t understand why he doesn’t set up in the high post near the free throw line and model his game after Dirks. It seems that from the 17-19 foot range he would have multiple options. He could pull up for a jump shot, as he is fairly consistent from that range if he is not fading, and he could drive. The reason the Mav’s set Dirk up around the foul line is so that he can see doubles coming and make it easier to kick out.
Spectrum-I see what you are saying but if O’Neal and Bosh are on the floor at the same time it doesn’t matter who is playing which position. I think you are saying the Bosh would be more effective against a bigger/slower player (this is what Khandor maintains, and I think you are both correct) while O’Neal would be able to overpower a smaller defender. The problem is that if both are on the floor at the same time, then the defence can switch, thus negating the advantage of the ‘mismatch’ you are proposing.
Also, what does everyone think about the possibility of trading for Al Jefferson? Great post presence, commands a double team. I’m not sure if he can pass out of the post well, but he must be better in this respect than Bosh?
Endo:
I strongly believe that bosh (and his agent) are intelligent enough to know that what happens between now and 2010 maters a great deal less than what the roster looks like the day before he can sign a new contract.
I’d argue that it’s not fake optimism at all – I’m going to hate to watch this lazy, uninspired team over the course of the year. But the only logical step is to maybe a make a small trade at the wings if it can make you younger or bring in a pick and otherwise to leave this roster intact. What you can get for the pieces we have will increase dramatically at the end of the season and/or closer to the deadline. We have 2 years to position this team for 2010, where the fate of the league for the next 5-10 years afterward will likely be decided. We need to stop thinking about making some miraculous rebirth so we can enjoy a tiny taste of the playoffs and start thinking about building a deep roster with holes we can throw money at.
More importantly, the best time to blow this team up will be after 2010 shakes out, when teams that didn’t quite do enough will be looking to add pieces in an attempt to beat the (insert city here) LeBrons.
That being said, I still believe you can win with Bosh long-term, but as a second option surrounded with talent. The thing is, you’re going to have to pay for quality bigs to win in this league, and Bosh is a good low post game away from being near-unstoppable on offense. We see wing players like VC, McGrady, etc all peak in their youth and flame out later but it doesn’t work that way for big men; they take time to develop because you can’t rely on athleticism alone if you want to be a true impact player that can take over a game (see: Amare). Bosh will peak in his 26-30 years, and he clearly needs a bit of mental development as well. Trading him now makes no sense.
Wow…the drips in Toronto are starting to see the obvious about Bosh…. all of this has been apparent for years…and for the nitwits still tying to compare him to Duncan…it’s about DEFENSE!! Look at Duncan’s (and Garnett’s) defense….and it’s about coming up big when and where it counts.
..and it’s about arrogance… when Bosh actually said that he was going for MVP this year and not one of those cunty little “journalists” blinked, you could see this coming…..have you EVER heard Duncan say something so incredibly arrogant or deluded??
None of what is going on with Bosh now is new…. he has, for his entire career been easily overpowered by pretty much anyone…horrible on defense and never able to score in a way AT A TIME when the team needed him to win in a big game….NEVER….
Idiots look at stats, listen to the flat out fucking idiots who shill for the Raptors and assume this guy is a leader. Toronto is a city with no instincts…
This WILL be disastrous if he is given a huge contract in 2010 at the expense of getting a REAL team.
After the O’Neal trade, I have zero faith in Colangelo….
why in the fuck is Parker still here????
Why indeed, Bargs and Parker.
look, it’s all pretty simple, no?
1. can they ‘win’ (i.e. make the playoffs, advance in the playoffs, etc.) with this roster?
A. no.
2. are they willing to part with any of bosh, jose or bargs in a trade?
A. no.
3. can they deal JO & his contract for anything?
A. no.
4. do they have enough assets, outside of those four, to make a deal that would improve the team enough to make number 1 possible?
A. no.
5. if no. 1 isn’t going to happen now or next year, is there ANY chance bosh re-signs w/ the raps?
A. no.
given the above, either they’re content to ’see what happens’ with the status quo/minor tweaks, or they’ll have to start considering breaking up the core. i don’t feel it’s an overreaction to a bad run of ball, the roster is simply fundamentally flawed, and cannot be considered a serious contender in the playoffs (or, at this point, even a legit playoff team). anyone who thinks bosh is waiting until the end of june, 2010 to make up his mind is fairly naive. as with any business decision, pros & cons are continually being weighed. i have a hard time believing that if they don’t make a serious push for the playoffs this season, then it’s going to become exponentially harder to re-sign bosh. and if that’s the case…then why not make a move? what is bargs’ ceiling at this point? i find myself randomly scanning other teams’ rosters for young bigs who i’d rather have than bargs, and wondering whether a deal could be made. in most cases, i can’t see why the other GM would want to make a deal for him. but who knows?
if he’s worth keeping to the point of losing bosh, then it’s time to put up or shut up (er, wait, vegetable lasagna hardly ever says anything…but still). unless some miracle occurs & he starts producing like they need him to (i.e. like an average NBA big), then it’s time to cut the cord & bid the big fundamental(ly unsound) goof adieu.
Totally agree. Trading Bargs is the only option. He’s gotta go.
doughboy just answered a very well thought-out question re. the team’s history of rebounding ineptitude in his blog with an answer that can be summed up as, ‘they need to work harder.’
he. is. awesome.
as the raps get worse, so do the manners of some of the people posting. I think some posts need to be censored. I am not talking about swear words.
I would trade Bosh for anything that could bring Rudy Gay and OJ Mayo in a heartbeat.
Unless you can somehow get more for Bargs in a trade now than you can at the end of the season or closer to the deadline, I fail to see what it would accomplish except further convince Bosh that BC doesn’t know what he’s doing.
Don’t get me wrong, if he could swing something to bring back some combination of a solid first round pick, a young, defensively sound big and/or a young, defensively sound wing with a drive and kick game, then I’d be all for it. But his trade value right now is crap, and you’re going to get crap back in return unless BC manages to fleece someone. Otherwise you’re trading potential for potential, and that can backfire. I mean if you’re a rival GM and BC calls you, you know immediately that he might be wiling to take back lesser value to keep his superstar happy and make the playoffs – he’s starting from a disadvantage in every negotiation.
Conversely, if you wait until the end of the season you’ll be giving Bargs a chance to put up better numbers, to see if he can grow and to see if he can increase his value. If at the end of the year he’s worth keeping, then keep him. If he’s not, then trade him – his value isn’t going to be any lower then than it is now and this team is starved for quality trading assets. This same argument goes for joey Graham and Moon – give them a chance to turn it around before you dump them for 75 cents on the dollar in some sort of misguided attempt to salvage a season that can’t end well anyway.
Stince-I totally agree. No sense making a move just for the sake of making a move…especially if you won’t get fair value.
What did you think about what I said about Bargs in my comment # 27?
No. If he has to go, get it done.
Its getting more and more difficult for me to even like this team after games like that – and I’m someone who sat through the 21 win season.
Besides the obvious flaws (rebounding/boxing out, 2/3 play, defense, intensity, aggressiveness), we have a “franchise player” who will not drive to the rim despite being matched up with Ryan friggin’ Anderson, cannot garner a consistent double team to get his shooters open (because of said lack of propensity to drive), and who allows aforementioned rookie to score 20 pts on him without bothering to raise his intensity. Unbelievable.
I used to believe that Colangelo would make the Raptors better and inject a sense of pride in the team, but instead he’s introduced mediocrity in his tenure as GM. All I see is a team with no identity, composed of soft players and very little potential for the future. He squandered our first pick on a soft, wildly inconsistent player (who happens to play the same position as our franchise player), and traded away a first round pick to draft a raw prospect with questionable health problems. He signed fringe players to guaranteed contracts, fielded a woefully sparse roster, and insists that this is the best team he’s had on paper. In BC we trust! … I think not
Personally, I’d love to see what BC could bring back in a trade, not using daddy’s help. Nobody wanted the Indy Gimp, so let’s call BryCo and see if he’ll take him. WOOT!
The depth of this team is at his feet. He created the issue and needs to resolve it. He used his scapegoat card with Sam and it won’t take long for even the idiot fans to wake up and see that the product on the floor was put together by someone who doesn’t utilize the cap well and also has what appears to be zero eye for talent.
AltRaps,
I agree. Ok we get a bunch of draft picks and up and coming players trading Bosh. Now do we even have the scouting to select a good player/s in the draft? Will they scout the NCAA or will BC send them to Europe to scout graveyard leagues? I have no faith in management. Bargnani over Roy, Gay, Aldridge, Rondo, Millsap. Disgusting
His first season here he should have traded his roster for expirings and draft picks to rebuild. Just like the MLSE way, why dont you sign veteran players for cheap in Europe who can contribute right away? There 30 but who cares.
In Bryan’s Tenure so Far:
Garbajosa
Parker
Moon
Kapono
Nesterovich
Ford
Uros Slokar
Pj Tucker
Carlos Delfino
Maceo Baston
Jake Vaskhule
Hassan Adams
Will Solomon
Oneil
Bargnani
Nathan Jawai
Who the hell are these players? That list tells you Bryan doesn’t know what he’s doing. Those are all quick fixes and didn’t win us a single thing and are in the D-league or in Europe now. All the money on them could have gone towards an 3-4 actual NBA athletes. This team could have been in the Finals if Dumars or Kevin Pritchard, Donnie Walsh was running things
Effort… Effort… Effort. Please don’t use the “E” word around this group of players – they don’t want to hear it.
In the last two games, we’ve seen players on the opposition catch a rebound AFTER they had fallen to the floor, the Raptors place three 7 footers under the basket and still fail on four consecutive misses to get a board, and some guy named Ryan Anderson put up a double double (after Troy Murphy’s 20/20 game) against a “franchise” player and supposed top 10 NBA talent. What a load of bull.
Concerning Blaine Harrington – it was pointed out in Grange’s blog the other day that some NBA execs think Charlie V has a better feel for basketball than Bosh does. I couldn’t agree more. He’s a one trick pony, and his solution is to try and spot up for three’s instead of get new post up moves. Can we hire Hakeem Olajuwon or someone to come into town and show him how its done? Bosh is a very good player, don’t get me wrong. But he’s limited to what we’ve seen so far. He doesn’t seem to have the “win at all costs” mentality that could truly see him get to the next level.
Concerning the wing problem, at this point I’d welcome back Mo Pete with open arms and let the rest of the bums form a team in the D League.
i would LOVE it if the Raps could pick up an old hall of famer to coach these guys. But, who are we kidding: we aren’t the Lakers. Nobody is dying to relive theor youth through the Raptors. I guarantee that if Bosh does end up in NY, Ewing comes back and teaches him a thing or two, and Bosh takes his game to the next level.
Bring Back Delfino:
I’d love to see Bargs in the high post, and I think he could probably make a living there once he’s made a few improvements, but I’m not sure he’s ready for it at this point. The main problem is that Bargs hasn’t yet developped enough patience on offense to read a defense and take what’s there, which is key for high post play. Ditto for his jumper and his drive game; they’d make perfect sense from that area but I could see a lot of badly rushed shots and ‘head down’ drives. It would also (generally speaking) get him closer to the key and maybe increase his rebound rate, but somehow I doubt it.
In a sense it would also fit well with the Raps’ gameplan as well since you could essentially sub Bargs for Bosh like Utah does with Millsap and Boozer – you just slot the next guy into the system and keep running the same plays. The problem there is that the Raps’ offense is personnel-oriented (though that may gradually change under Triano).
So yeah, I’d love to see it, but only on the condition that Bargs can handle it (and only in a role off the bench – if he and Bosh both tried to play near the high post at the same time, things would get very messy). Remember when he was hitting those midrange jumpers consistently (well…maybe consistently isn’t the right word) at the start of the season? I’d put that Bargs in the high post, but not this version we’re stuck with now.
Stince – I agree that Bargnani’s best shot at success can come from the high-post area where he has the option to hoist 18-footers or drive if the opportunity is there. He was doing this earlier in the year but we’ve seen less and less of that as the games have went on. I believe that he could knock down the jumper from that spot, but he hasn’t shown that he can take a crowding defender off the dribble, evade the help that’ll be coming by avoiding the offensive foul and finish or pass in that situation. I think your hopes for him too high.
ibreak4coffee – Bosh’s decision making ability is in the bottom 10% of the league. We’ve all talked about how it takes him 7 seconds to read the defense and then make a wrong decision based on what he’s seen. He doesn’t know how to respond to soft-doubles and once he makes up his mind to drive to the rim to get a fouled, he cannot read just and look for a passer when the help comes. How many times have you seen Bosh fade on a jumper when he’s got a SG or SF on him? I think it happens twice every game, those matchups should be punished. Funny part is that after each practice he says he needs to be aggressive but we rarely see it on the court. All talk IMHO.
Migs – This is not a very likeable team. There aren’t any players you can respect or cheer for like we did with Oakley, the early VC and even Davis. JO comes close because he seems to play hard most of the time but the rest of the bunch are too soft (I hate that word but it applies) and fragile.
verbatim – Coaching and instruction can only take you so far, as AltRaps said, we need to make smart on-court personnel moves before we make any more coaching tweaks.
Arse – that’s exactly what I mean (I was responding to Bring Back Delfino’s post) – his game is suited for it but it hasn’t developed sufficiently yet. We’ve seen what happens when he puts the ball on the floor above the 3-point line; if he starts a step in then that high dribble is begging to be swiped by guards collapsing in the lane a la Fisher / Rondo / CP3. I think his passing game could be better utilized there, but then again who on this team is going to cut hard, take the pass from Bargs and finish in traffic?
I suppose I do have high hopes for him, but those hopes aren’t of the ‘hey, he’s a first overall pick, he’s got skill, he’ll come around’ variety – they’re more of the ‘i just hope he can turn into a cheap effective defender who will hit a jumper and play smart’ variety. Basically I just want him to turn into a more athletic Rasho that scores 12 a game on 50% shooting, grabs 8 boards and I’m happy. I know that for his selection, etc, that’s not living up to potential, but at this point that’s irrelevant – I think getting anything out of him would be a positive (including a quality player back in a trade).
i agree that coaching can only take you so far. Bosh will not be a better rebounder, nor will O’Neal. You can’t teach talent, and you can’t teach motivation. But, I do think that Bosh’s game can be worked on. He has room for improvement, and a definable space where you can see that a little bit of proper mentorship would improve his game tenfold. This is not the role of the head coach – this is what the staff are for.
Magic made Kobe a better passer because the skill was there. Before that there was just a void of people that really knew how to teach someone like Kobe. I guarantee you, if Bosh moves to NY there will be some retired superstar waiting in the wings to bring the last bit out of him. Maybe a nice post game to compliment the face-up game. Combine him with LeBron and Nash, as some are predicting, and you have a new dynasty.
We add a contributor to the team:
http://raptorsrepublic.com/blog/2008/12/16/rethinking-colangelos-genius/
Arse, I too hate the word “soft”… I felt that I used it in my last post too many times, but “soft” doesn’t even begin to describe how this team plays (both mentally and physically). I’d use the word “marshmallow”, but Oliver Miller ate the last one.
Hell, speaking of the Big O, right now I’d much rather watch a team full of misfits, nobodies and rejects like him, Alvin Robertson, Tracy Murray, John Salley, Carlos Rogers, Zan Tabak and Ed Pinckney… I still hate Vincenzo Esposito though. At least Mighty Mouse made those guys seem better than they actually were, and there were no illusions from the GM that the team on the floor was a contender.
Bargs cannot develop here.
End of story.
He needs to be dealt for a wing. He is a power forward who has nice range, decent man ability and a developing post game. He needs a team that will let him do so without repercussion.
I say trade him to Memphis with Calderon and Graham for Gay and Conley.
It sucks but them’s the breaks.
At least he fucking showed up last game. Chris Bosh is a nancyboy.
Conley is not an NBA point guard right now, Rudy gay, fine, but who starts for this team at PG if you do that? That position will be undersized or inexperienced or both.
I’ll be a happy man if I never see that lineup that started the fourth quarter ever again. What was Triano thinking with that?
Roko-Parker-Kapono-Graham-Bargnani
On a night where the Raptors were getting abused on the backboards (out-rebounded by 16), Triano responds by putting (1) Four players who are below par rebounders (2) Plus one player who’s a good rebounder for a small forward but below par for a power forward, so that makes it five below par rebounders (3) In Bargnani and Kapono you have two of the worst rebounders in the league at their positions. They’re not just bad, they’re terrible.
Then you look at that group and wonder what the heck they’re going to do when they actually get the ball and go up the other end. Who are you going to run your offense through? Kapono? Parker? Bargnani has been struggling throughout December on the offensive end.
This is a tight game, why aren’t you leaving one of your three best guys out there to help that group offensively? Jermaine had been sitting for close to five minutes. Put him out there and give that group a post option, a defensive anchor and rebounder … let him balance that group out somewhat.
It was a disaster of a lineup
The lineup lasted only 2 minutes and 40 something seconds. The Raptors lost half of their lead and were out-rebounded by three boards … and more importantly lost the lead and allowed Devin Harris to get comfortable. The Raptors never found their way offensively after that period. They were on a 13-0 run before that unit
I’ll be happy if I never see that lineup again and especially not in comparable circumstances. Why that lineup would ever be a good idea in a close game where you’re getting pounded on the boards …. I simply do not know.
Dave,
Just out of curiosity …
GAME REVIEW: Raptors vs Nets [Dec 15]
Did it contribute at all to your perception of that 4th quarter? : )
No Khandor, I hadn’t read your game review until now.
That lineup bugged the heck out of me the second I saw it walk onto the court to start the fourth quarter. With the way the game was going I could not understand the choice of players.
Bargnagni is just an average player. End of the story. He will never be the next dirk or something like that,he will never develop. After 3 years in the nba his game is always the same. Hes not agressive, he never grab a damn offensive rebound and sometimes he just dosent care.Expectations in 06′ were too high and wrong. Lots of people (me and colangelo included i guess) tough he was gonna be good.. but i repeat afer 3 damn years you are what you are : one of the worst 1st pick ever. trade him.