Anybody else getting tired of being laughed at?We’re allowed a 15 man roster of which we’re not using two spots. So we’re down to 13. Then we have Jawai so we’re down to 12. Then we have Hassan Adams, Will Solomon and Roko Ukic so our NBA quality players are down to 9. Of that we got Jamario Moon who’s about as worthless as an asshole on an elbow so we’re down to 8. Of those 8 we got Joey Graham and Kris Humphries who on good days can be good players but have never been used properly or given the proper chance to be a productive functioning part of a team. So we’re down to 6. Of those 6 we have Jason Kapono who is playing out of his element on most nights and cannot be counted on to provide a consistent punch of anything. So we’re down to 5. Of those 5 we have Anthony Parker who is aging worse than an expired carton of milk. So we’re down to 4. Of those 4 we have Jermaine O’Neal, his hurting knee and cap-killing 21M salary and a turnover to points ratio that could scare of a bad accountant, so we’re down to 3. Of those three we have Andrea Bargnani, the #1 overall pick who although improved this year, has not been the difference-maker or impact player that we hoped he would. So we’re down to 2. Of those two there’s Jose Calderon who’s effort and desire can never be questioned but who’s ability to distribute the ball and check his man is always a subject of conversation. And finally we have our superstar Bosh who as we’re fast finding out is turning out to be nothing more than a great second option.
We don’t have it, we can try and pretend like we have it and its just a matter of time or coaching before it comes out but getting blown out consistently suggests otherwise. We are struggling not to get blown out, its hard for us to keep a game close for more than two quarters and there are plenty of things to point fingers at. You can point to the first quarter starts, the bad defense, our “superstar”, our desire and willingness to compete, our mental strength, our talent, our coaching, everything. They’re all lacking, not a single component of this team is functioning at an NBA level. Nothing at all. There’s a difference between losing and getting crushed and right now we’re struggling not to get crushed. I think that Rob Babcock team with Voshon Lenard can beat our current squad the way they’re playing. No joke.
Where do you begin? I guess you have to start with the first quarter. The job of the starters is supposed to be to get you off to a good start and set the tone for the game. You know, something to pass on to the bench when they come in and get back after your late first, early second quarter breather. The shit hits the fan so early for us that we have to play the entire game from behind and that’s a hard thing to do. Our first two possessions are turnovers which are stuffed in our faces for two big LBJ slams. Nice start fellas. If Delonte West is breaking down Parker in the first quarter, I don’t even want to know what he’s going to do in the fourth when Parker’s legs are tired. When your team sucks (and the Raptors do in fact suck), you’re supposed to go to your superstar for production and Bosh happens to fold like expensive toilet paper against good teams. 4 of 11 for 9 points? Fuck. Off. Seriously. We needed him in two stretches today, the start of the first when we needed to get out of the gates quickly and the start of the third when Cleveland was trying to put the hammer down on us after we had clawed back in the game. He failed on both occasions.
Trailing threes are not what MVPs are made of. Nor are they made up of passing the ball off when covered by Mo Williams on single-coverage in the post. They definitely aren’t made up of checking out against Boston, Detroit, Denver, Utah and now Cleveland. The Cavs were all over us in the first quarter, they were getting enough dribble penetration to attract a double and start swinging the ball, luckily for us they weren’t hitting all their perimeter jumpers so we were somewhat still in the game at the end of the first (down 10). Jose Calderon, Jermaine O’Neal and Anthony Parker (the same trio that made that fourth quarter run against Portland) stepped up and cut the Cavaliers lead from 17 to 6 in the second quarter and got us somewhat back in the game down 8. Enter the third quarter and all eyes are on Bosh to start carrying the load against Wallace and Varejao and what does he do – he fizzles out like a candle hit by a wave. 1-4 for 2 points in the quarter. Lebron in this quarter went 4-6 for 10 points and two steals. 20 point lead. Game over. That right there is what a superstar does for you. He takes a game that is close and creates separation. We needed Bosh to step up and be aggressive against Cleveland’s immobile bigs and want to get to the FT line and get fouled, instead he settles (and I can’t stress this word enough) for flimsy perimeter jumpers that play exactly into the hands of the defense.
There’s a fine line between a great second-option, a star and a superstar. In Bosh’s four years with the Raptors he’s shown us that he can be a very good player but has far from proven that he’s worthy and capable of being a cornerstone of a franchise. I keep waiting for him to deliver in the spotlight when matched up against elite NBA players in games that mean more than a single W or L and time and time again he’s come up short. Very short. All the talk in pre-season was positive and he was playing aggressive earlier in the year but all that is gone and replaced with something which I dare say resembles complacency. Has he finally come to recognize the roster he’s playing with and has checked out? Is he pulling a Vince on us? You’d like to think he’s cut of a different cloth than VC but in his last couple outings he doesn’t seem to care about the result. Is it Triano not giving him the ball enough and not running enough PNRs? Whatever it is, Bosh’s attitude seems to have taken a 180 degree turn over the last couple weeks. I can’t imagine it’s fatigue, LBJ also played in the Olympics and he seems to be breathing normally. Yeah, Mitchell stretched Bosh for the first 15 games of the year but don’t tell me that’s the reason for burnout, it’s December for fuck sakes.
God bless Jermaine O’Neal’s heart because I know this losing hurts him more than anyone (definitely more than Bosh, smiling at the end) and I appreciate that he’s trying to carry this team by going into the post against other bigs but its just not happening for him. We’re 20 games in and I was counting on this to be the time where he finds his offensive groove and starts hitting those layups and lane-jumpers that were automatic for him a few years back, but its just not happening. Either his shot isn’t there or the legs aren’t there, he was starting to find his rhythm before he went down with injury and since he’s come back he hasn’t been able to get back to where he was. 6 turnovers is no joke, dribbling off his knees, losing the ball out of bounds, failing to keep defenders on his back….those are signs of somebody who’s losing it. You can see when he’s trying to gather himself before going up that he’s relying on sheer strength to finish rather than skill. The old Jermaine O’Neal would’ve led with his shoulder and layed the ball in, but this JO is trying with all his might to dunk it. The fluidity in his game is missing and he’s trying to compensate for it by power and its not working, it’s resulting in turnovers.
There was a play in the second half where O’Neal, Bosh and Bargnani were all in the paint with Big Z “contesting” for a rebound, when the shot was missed, Z just reached up and layed the ball in as our trinity stood there embarrassed. Nobody said anything to each other, they just inbounded the ball and walked up the court. That to me is a timeout call followed by expletives, broken chairs, stare-downs and a team-meeting. There’s no point analyzing the technical aspects of a game until we’ve got our effort and motivation issues ironed out. These three are supposed to be the headliners of the team and when you get this kind of play out of them, what can you possibly expect from someone like Jamario Moon?
We fail to execute basic basketball plays. I’m not talking about a PNR or a back-cut, I’m talking simple, fundamental tasks. For example, I just realized that we cannot throw an entry-pass into the post without making it very interesting, every completed pass into the post is a near steal for the defense and even if its caught, the post player has to come out of an advantageous area just so he can catch the ball. Our cross-court passes are weak, predictable and don’t have any zip on it, LBJ looked like Scottie Pippen tonight when he was playing those passing lanes, he even motivated the defensively indifferent Mo Williams to get in on the act. We cannot seem to get our best shooter and our best post-up player on the same side of the court, it’s like Kapono and Bosh are wearing two huge repelling magnets and cannot occupy the same side of the court while Bosh has the ball.
Did you catch that play where Bargnani drove the ball from the right elbow, got sealed off and threw it behind him hoping somebody was there to bail him out. That right there speaks of a man going solo without having any idea where any of his teammates are. I don’t know if that was a one-on-one play born out of frustration or a set-play which went horribly wrong, either way its a sign that Triano’s a long ways away from instilling any sort of a system with the Raptors. Judging by the rate at which this team learns things I fear that it might be too late before we finally grasp Triano’s style of play. So what is his style of play? I don’t know for sure but so far I’ve been able to decipher this: 1) Less Moon, more Graham, 2) Less high PNR, more ball movement, 3) Less fighting through screens, more switches, 4) More flashes and quick-hits. These can all be good things but the question is whether we have the personnel to execute any kind of system. It’s also why I was sometimes hesitant to rip into Mitchell too much because the talent pool that he was working with is not good or fierce enough to compete.
Matt Devlin, Leo Rautins and Jack Armstrong can harp on about the strength of schedule, the early injuries and Bosh’s fatigue all they want, but those aren’t factors in getting blown the fuck out. I understand if we lost a 5-point game or went through a cold-spell in the fourth quarter to lose the game, but that isn’t the case. We’re getting chased out of the arena and embarrassed in the first half. If it weren’t for the JO/Parker/Jose second quarter run, LBJ would’ve iced his knees in the second quarter.
Here are some facts that were reinforced last night: Bosh’s mental state is questionable. Jermaine O’Neal’s a hard worker but he’s not having the rebounding impact that we needed him to have. I think this has more to do with communication and defensive rotations and less to do with skill, our bigs have a nasty habit of challenging the shot but not making our interior rotations and our guards don’t box out which leaves ample offensive rebounding opportunities. The dribble-penetration is worse than it has been the last three years and we’re scrambling to recover too often. Even a great defensive team like San Antonio would struggle if they had to make as many defensive rotations as we’re forced to. Bosh cannot consistently create his own shot and if he isn’t doubled early in the shot-clock, our offense automatically reverts to one-on-one moves. Joey Graham has been a nice little surprise but our wing position is the weakest in the NBA and this happens to be the most loaded position in the league. There is a significant drop in production when we sub Jose off and the bench fails to provide that boost that good teams look always count on. The bench is supposed to fire the team up, ours digs the hole even deeper. Finally, we seem to have a GM that refuses to cross the luxury tax in order to fulfill a need. I cannot explain 2 empty roster spots on a team which is so shallow to begin with.
I’d like to give Jose Calderon some credit tonight, yeah he threw some bad passes that were picked off and didn’t check Boobie or West as well as he could’ve but he looked to attack. He had at least three drives to the rim (two for scores) and looked to genuine push the ball and setup early. When garbage time came in the fourth quarter, him and O’Neal were the two players that looked the most distraught. The perplexed and disappointed look on their faces spoke of a team that has deep problems and the worst part being that there doesn’t seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel.
On the bright side, Roko Ukic and Joey Graham are playing hard and that alone should warrant more playing time. If the starters can’t get the job done in the first quarter maybe its time to send a big message and start Humphries and Graham, if for nothing else than to rattle some heads. This team needs to buy into something and develop an identity, right now we’re wandering on a possession-by-possession basis without believing in anything that we’re trying to do. Let’s start off by motivating players to lay it all out there and there’s no better way to motivate someone by stepping on their ego, and starting scrubs might be the way to go. Losing is contagious and once you accept it as reality it’s very difficult to get out of that state of mind. Bryan Colangelo should see the warning signs and act accordingly because waiting too long might be waving goodbye to a playoff spot. If things don’t turn around very soon we might even have to make a a move for the sake of making a move. Things are starting to look that bleak, I can handle the Ls, I just can’t handle the way we’re getting annihilated in the Ls. If the answer is to trade Chris Bosh and start over, I’m fine with it, this franchise recovered from losing Damon, T-Mac, and VC. We can handle it.
We here at Raptors Republic realize that without the readers, this site sucks ass. So we’ve decided to give you, the fan, the chance to have your say and not just for 30 seconds like on a radio show. Every now and then (as often as possible) we’ll get your take on things, doesn’t matter who you are, if you got something to say, RR is your place to say it. So tonight, a fan named Chris (handle is Sir Carl English ) wanted to chat some hoops and vent about the Raptors so I called him up, here’s the talk:
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Remember that you can listen to this in iTunes. If you’d like to get on and chat, just email arsenalist at raptorsrepublic.com and we’ll try to get you on. Remember to also check the live blog which couldn’t be finished due to pure disgust and the hilarious Roll Call.
64 Raps
The game wasn’t good. I fell asleep aroud half-time and who knows what happened from there. Well, we lost, but I mean aside from that. It’s time. Yes, it’s time to start RoboJoe at SF. Bargnani will come off the bench for PF or C depending on whether Chris is sucking as usual or J-OHNO is in foul trouble again. Can we stop the Will Solomon experiment too? Please? Ukic looks to attack all the time and we NEED that. If you want his “scoring touch” slot him in at SG when AP gets tired, but I’m expecting a house of turnovers that bricks built.
Do it. Let’s go.
I am impressed by this website. Four posts covering the game, wow. Kudos to you guys.
“We needed him in two stretches today, the start of the first when we needed to get out of the gates quickly and the start of the third when Cleveland was trying to put the hammer down on us after we had clawed back in the game. He failed on both occasions.”
Very true, these were the two turning points of the game. Would the Raps come out and put the Blazers game behind them and come out aggressive. They didn’t. AP’s threes in the second quarter got us back and set Bosh up to do his duty but he never tried to get involved in the game. Stricly jumpers as you said.
Did see some good things from our offense. Kapono’s cutting more, more flash-type stuff, its a good beginning. I think Triano will surprise many.
If I was Colangelo I would trade everyone on this team.. Has a team in nba history ever get rid of all there players? I am speechless I dont know what can save us .. I have a feeling Bosh felt short on his call on being MVP and he is playing half ass.. Oneal seems like he is the only one with the Raptor spirit.. I know this coach seems like he can talk a big game but like I said before the chemistry of the team seems like its lost.. And I do agree Bosh gets intimitaded by great teams and players..
What would you guys do diffrent if you where in Colangelo’s shoes.. ?????????
Hey buddy, I hear your outright rage.
I don’t even know if we are better than Memphis or any shitty western teams.Is this the NBA’s worst team, or do we have some foundation?
I think that we should be calm and only think about our hard seasons run,
Cheers
Hello guys,
I’m an Italian fan. SOmebody is looking at Chris Bosh who is not playing without Sam Mitchell. Only tired or there’s something more…?
Bye
Nick
If Bosh is missing Smitch,he can grow the fuck up !!!Our self acclaimed league mvp is mia.
JO & Jose ,are doing the best they can,at least the desire is there.
Bargs,sorry the 3 isn’t working for you….hang on,did he not spend the summer with his back to the basket !!!
Roco,going to the hole,with some balls (Bosh)…I dont understand,roco is in the nba,and is learning how to shoot,shut the fuck up….
I am starting to question wonder boy Colangelo,what can he do now,with limited options ?
Bosh’s smiling and lack of leadership,looks like vc,all over again…if he is becoming a cancer,get rid of him for a pack of gum,while we can,maybe a Williams or 2….Am I ripping Bosh ? yup,man up for f…sakes.
d279,
Good morning to you!
Are you still so sure that what I’ve said, to this point, about this year’s team, was nonsense and would turn out to be incorrect?
Was just wondering …
Do you you know if your friend, Tinman, is still around?
Khandor,does every comment have to become a pissing match with you ?
well, had the night to let this one settle. why does it feel worse?
i intimated something akin to what arse wrote about bosh playing kind of like wince did in his waning days – lack of intensity, settling for ‘easy’ shots, not attacking, detached emotionally.
i’ve gone round & round in my head just what could be done with the current roster to make them even respectable, and i really don’t think there’s much. khan, i know you’ve suggested joey & hump start at the 3 & 4, w/ moon at the 2, and at this point, there’s no reason not to experiment (other than having JO come off the bench would probably lose him); would it do anything, though? they probably wouldn’t be any worse, but at best, given the other pieces, is it at all possible that lineup would be better?
one of the most troubling things, as a ‘fan’ (or is that ’supporter?’), is how much i HATE watching them. it’d be one thing to lose if they were giving max effort, had some semblance of cohesiveness, or showed any intensity or sustained desire to compete. but this is just laughable. like i said in yesterday’s comments, opposing teams must have a hard time staying serious when gameplanning…i imagine there’s a lot of snickering/giggling going on when watching tape. or when the matchups are laid out.
right now, we’re a team that only looks marginally good on paper; unfortunately, when the games start, against most good/very good teams, any supposed advantage goes out the window. then we get to the bench, and it becomes a joke.
would anyone on this roster, outside of bosh, and perhaps jose, get any serious minutes with a true contending team?
1. Bosh’s past 5 games are disappointing beyond the on-court product. With every blow out and poor, sulky performance, the odds of our landing the free agent(s) we need in 2010 diminishes. You think LBJ said to himself at the end of the game, ‘Man I can’t wait to play with Bosh, that dude is a warrior. Maybe Toronto will have a more attractive situation in 2010…’? I frieking doubt it.
2. I think Roko should get some time at the 2. Even if it’s just for 2-3 minutes per game, bring him in at the 2 right before you sub Calderon out. You get Roko into the game in a situation where he can get comfortable before you take Jose out and Roko is just as apt at that spot as, say, Jamario Moon. I’d just like to see what a guy with a drive and kick game could do mixed in with our starters.
3. What the hell do we do with Bargnani?
‘What the hell do we do with Bargnani?’
whaddya mean? he’s the future. right?
Excellent, excellent, excellent post. I can’t stress this enough. No covering up, no sugarcoating, no looking for glimmers of hope where there may not be any, no excusing the players,no over reacting either. Just cold harsh truth and reality. It is what it is. Can Rap fans handle the truth?
Should have titled this: The State of the Republic. Good job, Arse. Love the candle and wave thing. Fantastic.
Good call on JO and Bosh comparison on the bench. I just made the same point to Khandor on Roll Call. Lots of other excellent points, as well.
—
Khandor, I wonder where all the “2nd in the East” people are. And for that matter where has Andiamo been hiding.
Yertu, like you and Arse said.. it’s one thing to lose, another to forfeit the game before it even starts. This team has checked out.
And I have no concept of how anyone looked at this team at the start of the year (while looking at all the other playoff bound teams in the East) and thought it was going anywhere. The Kool Aid must be some powerful stuff, like Everclear.
Someone tell me what FA are coming here now. BC phone must be ringing off the hook, because they are trying to get on the Toronto Timberclips.
Flux,
FACT IS … the very best time to buy property … is during an ecomonic downturn, Right?
Q1. Is there possibly light at the end of this tunnel?
A1. You bet there is … depending on who it is driving your locamotive.
It’s a personnel issue, my friends. Always has been.
That … and the specific “Approach to ‘Business’” of MLSE, the owners of the Maple Leafs, the Raptors and TFC.
——————————–
It’s not rocket science, to be sure, but you do actually need to know what you’re doing.
Khandor, the variable is the quality of the property. If you are going to just replace it with equal of less quality, what are we doing? What I am saying is that no quality FA is coming here. This is officially a losing situation, a team headed for the lottery and last time I checked players want to play for a winner/contender, no?
for a drastic change, isn’t the only chip of value the raps have to play bosh?
Hey Khan – looks like Arse is buying into your lineup.
Starting Humps and Graham? Part way there. If only he ran the team so we could actually see this theory put to the test. Nothing else to look forward to with this team for now…
Sigh…
Flux,
And what I’m saying is …
The very best time to buy property is during an ecomonic downturn.
Right?
——————-
Of course, a secret is …
Knowing what specific properties to buy and which ones to leave alone.
———————-
re: for a drastic change, isn’t the only chip of value the raps have to play bosh? – by yertu
———————-
No, yertu, it’s not.
Dan H,
As it is with property …
WHEN you buy it
is at least as important as
WHAT you buy.
================================
Buying into something, too late … isn’t quite my cup of tea. : )
Ah, yes.. the timing, sure. But if the assets you are willing to part with are “worthless” in the market, you are probably looking at the one you should be leaving alone.
Thing is, BC believes in the entire roster, by all accounts, so maybe we should expect him to only fill out the roster spots? Again, I beg the question, who of considerable value is coming here?
Does anyone have word on what Jose and LeBron were chatting about at one point, last night?
The raps definitely have some pieces to trade, they just need to look for the right partner. Examples:
1. Kapono to a contender looking to add bench firepower to a strong defensive unit (SA would be great if they had anyone to take back).
2. Parker to a contender (I don’t think I need to state what he’d add to a contender coming off the bench, it’s pretty obvious).
3. Moon to a team that’s stacked at the wings and knows they won’t be able to pay them all in 2 years (but would probably have to be packaged with someone like Hump since no GM would trade anyone talented for him straight up – Portland springs to mind).
4. Bargnani to wherever Nelly coaches. You’ll always be able to find another GM that’s crazy enough to risk trading for him – his upside will always be worth the risk to someone. Too bad Isiah’s out of the game.
5. Joey Graham: I’d hate to see them trade him now but with his stock rising maybe you package him with Hump to get a couple of solid players back from a team with a lot of youth and low payroll flexibility (like GS – I’d take Julian Wright and Azabuike right now for Bargnani and Graham).
Point is, there are 30 teams in this league and in any given season there are enough championship pretenders and teams looking to clear space to swing something. The real problem for BC is the dominance of the Lakers and Celtics: normally I’d say teams like Dallas and Phoenix would love to deal some youth for that last playoff push, but I don’t know if the usual suspects will be as active this year.
Khandor,
Still here. Just refuse to pile on the negative.
We were expecting a rough stretch, why do we seem surprised(judging by the comments)when it occurs?
Do I think Sam should of been let go at this particular time? No. Having Triano take over during this stretch has set us back. Will we recover? Absolutely! How far behind will we be? Hopefully not too far.
Throughout this frustrating 20 game start to the season we are only 4 games out of 4th place – things could be much worse.
Good article in the Sun today by Zicarelli. Revisits the TJ/Jose situation.
PJ Carlesimo and that Blazers squad, that was some beautiful basketball. The ball and player movement was incredible. They had Kenny Anderson at the point, and Sabonis at the high post, and those two guys’ intelligence and passing skills … wow, they just ran the show. It was beautiful basketball.
Then you had Rasheed Wallace (second season in the league), Clifford Robinson, JR Rider to round out the starting five. Gary Trent was coming off the bench and knocking bodies around in the paint. Stacey Augmon and Chris Dudley supplying D. Jermaine O’Neal was a rookie on that squad too.
They won 49 games. They played tough defense and beautiful offense. They were an excellent rebounding team too. I loved watching that team play. Fun team.
I think the following summer was the year they botched the free agent negotiations with Clifford Robinson. He was a big loss, that hurt them badly for two years.
Most everybody talks of trades, but don’t include Bosh in that list. Why?
Surely Bosh is our best trading chip, and could fetch us a couple of decent athletic players plus draft picks. It must be apparent to all that Bosh is planning to dump the Raptors, and it can be sooner than we expect.
If I were Bosh, I would have my agent talking to the Raptor executive about an early trade to a contending team. Bosh knows the Raptors need a complete rebuild to fix the wreck they are currently. The players are not jelling because many of them don’t have the skills or mental ability to get the job done.
I know that tribal honking fans can’t cope with the thought of losing their beloved Bosh, who grew up with the Raptors became an all-star and is the ‘franchise’ player. The bitter fact is that Bosh is losing market value as a bball player by staying with the disjointed Raptors. In fact, Bosh is no longer motivated to play for this sorry excuse for a team. He obviously wants out and his body language confirms that.
I bet BC is considering tanking the season for high draft picks, because most established US NBA players don’t want to play in ‘Canada’ .. that’s not the cool place to be for them or their friends or family. Toronto is the last place high draft pick US college players want to be .. it’s a foreign country and Toronto has earned a bad reputation after the VC debacle and was it Steve Francis who infamously refused to play for the Vancouver Grizzlies when he was a draft pick?
Those who continue to cling to the thought that Bosh will forever be a Raptor are just not realistic nor rational. I wouldn’t be surprised if the MLSE sold the Toronto franchise for a USian destination, if they got a good buck for the team. The Toronto fan base is faithful to the Raptors, but the actual bball market in Canada is small … Canada is a hockey puck brain nation.
I enjoy watching good bball, and I don’t fall in love with any particular player; that’s infantile and delusionary. The current Raptor team is not very competent, and watching this disjointed team is painful. This team is the equivalent of a Euroleague team, a poor team.
BC must make deep and decisive changes to this team franchise and soon .. imho.
BC please make a move soon!!! Get some toughness on this team! Trade Parker, Bargnani, even Jose can go who cares just get some talent on this team!! Pick up JOHN SALMONS!!
….And get a REAL coach!
I’m with ya FAQ and Lopez.. ship everyone one out. Good night and good luck, good riddance as well.
FAQ, shipping the Raps may happen in a few years, still think it’s highly unlikely. Rumor has is Seattle will have a franchise by 2011.. I think the Bobcats are more likely to move then the Raps, but who knows what happens by then.
Great post Arsenalist. Hit all the important points. Sir Carl English did an admirable job on the podcast too (couldn’t hear him too well though).
Keep up the good work – Lord knows we need something to get through this time!
We’re not talking about moving Bosh because it’s unrealistic. Trading Bosh this season would alienate a Toronto fan base that still remembers the VC trade and isn’t going to reward the club with tickets sales – remember this GM is trying to keep his job under new scrutiny. I’m not saying it won’t be prudent to deal Bosh at some point, but why not see if you can flip some of what you’ve got, see what you can get for JO’s contract and if next year it still looks like Bosh is going to bolt then deal him.
Tinman,
Good to know you’re still about.
If I recall correctly … you had more than a few things to say about this blog entry of mine, a while back.
Was just wondering …
Q1. Do you still feel the same way today?
I love and I hate Raptors Fans and Torontonians. So insecure! You love our team, but your neurosis is crazy! Fine, Steve Francis didn’t want to report to Canada. That was almost 10 years ago and was Vancouver! Vince loved Toronto, he had no problem with Canada, he just (rightly) had no confidence in the MLSE and the Babcock run Toronto Raptors. Damon lost confidence when his mentor, Isiah was ousted and had no confidence in the franchise (note: this was pre-MLSE). Damon publicly said he would love to return to Toronto. T-mac is T-mac. Can you blame a 21 year old kid for making a boneheaded decision (i.e. not winning a championship with Vince and AD, which I believe would have been a real possibility). JO chose Toronto over a number of places. Bryan Colangelo chose Toronto when he could have gone to any NBA city in the world. Relax guys, don’t let your Canadian insecurity get to you.
Furthermore, Raps fans are so prone to panic. Maybe it’s because you guys are young (I’m making assumptions based on what I read here and on RealGM which is a completely absurd website), maybe it’s the insecurity coming out again, maybe it’s just ingrained in the city’s psyche because our teams are perennial losers (and yes if you’re wondering I’m from Toronto) but switching gears from Chris Bosh is the team’s saviour, to “trade that bum” is ridiculous. Give it some time, let BC makes a move for a wingman and more interior presence. Just chillout. It’s starting to get annoying. I also find the reversal on Jose crazy! Let’s also remember TJ’s shortcomings here (selfish, sometimes out of control, not a good shooter, etc.).
And Arse, again, I love your determination and your passion. But c’mon man. You’re guilty of it too. Bosh was your saviour 5 games in and now he is the goat. I just realized the difference between a professional writer and a blogger. A professional writer has a duty to write a balanced and fair article. This site is turning into a Raptors puke-fest. Some sanity would be warranted throughout the entire Raptors fanbase.
I thought someone’s comment yesterday was outrageous, delusional and ridiculous. Congratulations, B-Star you just snatched the award.
Please, out my ignorance on the situation, enlighten me and tell my what teams did JO and BC leave in the dust for Toronto. Just two out of the 1000 simply mind blowing statements you just made.
d279,
———————–
re: Khandor,does every comment have to become a pissing match with you? – by d279
———————–
Was that a “Yes” or a “No”? [on your part]
B-star,
He was the saviour for five games in a row, I thought he had turned the corner and was starting to FINALLY play as per his hype but its turning out to be all smoke and mirrors. He’s reverting to the same old Bosh that doesn’t show up when it counts. You can’t deny that because its fact and don’t pull an Eric Smith and point to stats because they hardly reflect player impact, especially when garbage time kicks in early.
As I said, we’re not just losing, we’re getting obliterated. I can handle losing man, I handled 16-66 like a breeze, I slept like a baby through VC’s off years and Walker and KO’s fuck-ups. Losing does not bother me, getting blown out consistently and not having the fight to respond does.
Reggie Slater, you know who he was, you sound like you’re old enough. I enjoyed watching that guy struggle to find his offense, I liked watching him give 100% on defense and still fail to get that rebound. I like watching Hump because despite all his faults, he genuinely cares when he’s on the court. I even liked Rafer Alston because he got pissed off and became emotional after losing. Aside from a little something from JO, I don’t see any of that here.
There is nothing wrong or immature with fans/bloggers/anybody being pissed off after our recent stretch of play, if anything, people who are still even keel after this need to re-examine themselves.
Funny thing is that the people who were calling for Mitchell’s head were labeled reactionary, hotheads and insecure just like you’re calling them. What happens next? Your beloved GM fires him thus making him reactionary, hotheads and insecure? C’mon man, I’m all for positive thinking but facts are facts and if the product you saw against Denver, Utah and Cleveland is even close to acceptable, then you and I are cut of very different cloth.
B-star,
In your opinion … has what I’ve written, so far, been “guilty of it, too?”
Thanks for your input, in advance.
“There’s no point analyzing the technical aspects of a game until we’ve got our effort and motivation issues ironed out.”
Great post all-around, and I couldn’t agree with the quote above more. We DO have enough talent to compete on a nightly basis, perhaps not against the best teams in the league, but surely against just about everyone else.
The roster is a big problem, no doubt, but NOT the biggest problem at present.
Arse,
Thanks for the comment. Far better than Flux’s, which was a typical Raps’ fan response. I see what you are saying, I understand your frustration and again I appreciate your passion. I could never manage a website like this, let alone push out so many entertaining and in depth articles. I have a feeling your Reggie Slater comment was meant to be a bit tongue and cheek. It’s like saying, Ed “the Garbage Man” Pickney was fun to watch or admiring the sweet stroke of our first Italian Free Agent, Vincenzo Esposito. I just think that an all out verbal assault on CB4, BC and Jose is not yet warranted when we are 4 games out of 4th place in the East. I think some patience is warranted (1) until the inevitable trade is made by BC and (2) until after the all-star break where the Raptors tend to heat up (see: 2000-2001, 2006-2007 seasons).
About the hothead comment and your analogy to BC. That was just plain silly. If BC was a hothead, he would have fired Sam long ago as he continuously underacheived. He is in fact a pretty balanced guy, (1) he gave Sam a chance to prove himself when most GMs prefer their own coach, (2) he allowed Sam to constantly throw him under the bus with his “we need a rebounder…we need more athleticism…we aren’t very good”. Even if it was true, its never a good career move to bite the hand that feeds you, (3) he based his decision to keep Sam on board longer than most thought based on financial reasons (i.e. his large contract) as well as team performance, which shows his methodical approach to management. I don’t know a lot of people who would have kept Sam on as coach (and CWebb doesn’t count!) as long as BC did.
I am all for free speech. Say whatever the hell you want, Rap Away Raps Fans, but patience is a virtue my friends.
B-Star
I just didn’t appreciate you grouping the entire fan base under one category. Not sure how long you have been reading this website, but you if you have, you would know that some of us didn’t just wake up this morning and decide to come up with these thoughts. Some of the statements you made are down right insulting to some people around here, in part simply by the fact that you have different expectations levels and frustration threshold then the rest of the them.
Still waiting for you to let me know what teams we had to fight off to get JO and BC. Thanks.
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2008/12/07/nba_tor_colangelo_20081207_sot.nba/
Khandor
You had them @ 6-14 , I had them @ 10-10. Sounds like a push.
Okay Flux, here we go: Jermaine O’Neal was rumoured to be headed to, (1) The Lakers, (2) New Jersey, (3) Cleveland, (4) New York and (5) Toronto. While these are just rumours and it is never good to work without perfect information, because MLSE is not a Public Company they are not required to disclose this information. Which means one of two things, there was either more or less interest than this in Jermaine. What we do know forsure (from the mouth of JO) is that there was a real option on the table for him to go to Cleveland, but that he in fact chose Toronto. Interesting. So notwithstanding the fact that we are not privy to the other possible destinations, we know that Jermaine at least had a chance to go to a team that made the NBA finals the season before and boasts the best player in the league, but he prefered Toronto. If you’ve ever been to Cleveland, you may understand why (I’ve been and its not pretty).
Colangelo: You can’t be serious about this one. I know that you think you may know more than the “establishment” media, but there is a reason he won Executive of the Year twice. He would have had multiple offers had MLSE not found itself in the lucky (or unlucky) position of (1) having fired a GM mid-season (i.e. Babcock) and (2) Colangelo’s father having sold the Suns and the team wanting to shed the organization of the family, which paved the way for Colangelo to come to Toronto. If you really think no one would have offered Colangelo a shot at the end of the season, you sir are highly delusional. If you want to argue this point some more, I’d be happy to do it.
Sorry for hurting your feelings, I just thought that if you can dish it so hard to guys like CB4 and BC, you could take it too.
Tinman,
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re: Khandor
You had them @ 6-14 , I had them @ 10-10. Sounds like a push. – by Tinman
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As I’ve said to you before …
If you think that I “had them at 6-14″ then you have yet to fully comprehend what I’ve actually written in that blog entry.
Personally, I have no idea the reason you keep stating that I’ve said something which I have not said.
B-star,
When you get around to the question I asked … please be sure to let me know. : )
Interesting. So JO chose TO over Kobe, VC and LeBron, rumor has it. That def. sounds believable. I guess we can speculate a) how much validity there was to any of those rumors and b) why JO chose TO. I’m gonna guess we are going to disagree on both, so we are just going to have to each believe what we want.
And the same goes for BC. No one is arguing that he wouldn’t have had a shot somewhere else, but perhaps one should know what his motivation was for coming here. I am going to assume that you believe it’s because he has deep rooted affection for the citizens of Toronto.
Oh I can take it, just don’t be surprised when it’s dished back.
Scott G,
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re: The roster is a big problem, no doubt, but NOT the biggest problem at present. – by Scott G
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Given that:
i] Sam Mitchell is no longer the head coach,
ii] It doesn’t look as though MLSE has designs on selling their stake in the Raptors
iii] It doesn’t look as though BRyan Colangelo is ready to run away, just yet, from what he’s built here, thus far
it looks like the roster might just be the biggest problem at present.
bstar – not making any assumptions, but you need to stop reading doughboy. the ‘they’re only 4 games out of 4th place in the east’ might have some pertinence, if they weren’t going in the wrong direction. 5 wins in their last 17 games.
Re: Stince – Dec 10, 2008 12:22 pm … We’re not talking about moving Bosh because it’s unrealistic…….
Stince … Bosh’s agent has got to be beating BC’s head, to trade him because Bosh’s value will tank horribly if he is held in Toronto. Just looking at Bosh collapsing on the floor and doing stupid things like lofting 3-pointers 7 seconds into the clock …. Bosh is struggling physically and mentally .. so obvious.
Bosh has committed himself to the Raptors until 2010, and he has given the franchise a solid return on their investment. Now Bosh must look out for his own welfare, because the Raptors have let him down with their incompetent assembly of this team of scrubs and benchers. Bosh plays in desperation and fear for his future … just like Vince did … and I’m pretty sure he wants out now.
Would you and Toronto fans begrudge him that …????
fire the coach.
1) Flux: we can agree to disagree, but just know that I’m right ;)
2) Khandor: I don’t know the content of your Raps (besides the few that I think made the Rap of the Day) so I don’t feel qualified to judge. If you need affirmation, love, support or a just someone to hold you, perhaps ask Flux.
Who’s coming out with typical RealGM stuff now? Hypocritical are we?
alt – exactly. did smitch sneak back in, ’cause i’m not seeing a whole of anything that’s different?
And you know little about ppl’s perceptions about anything really, but think you can just come out blasting with ridiculous statements and judgments after reading 2 comments and not expect to get blasted back? What world do you live in?
B-star,
——————————-
re: 2) Khandor: I don’t know the content of your Raps (besides the few that I think made the Rap of the Day) so I don’t feel qualified to judge. If you need affirmation, love, support or a just someone to hold you, perhaps ask Flux.
——————————-
You should have stopped after the first nine words. : )
affirmation, love, support, or just someone to hold?
Hmmmm …
“Louie, I think is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.”
- Monsieur Rick
B-star,
——————————-
re: 2) Khandor: I don’t know the content of your Raps (besides the few that I think made the Rap of the Day) so I don’t feel qualified to judge. If you need affirmation, love, support or a just someone to hold you, perhaps ask Flux. – by B-star
——————————-
You should have stopped after the first nine words. : )
affirmation, love, support, or just someone to hold?
Hmmmm …
“Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.”
- Monsieur Rick
B-Star – Firstly, Jermaine O’Neal was TRADED to Toronto, he didn’t CHOOSE Toronto, at all. Additionally, what were Colangelo’s options vs. Toronto, and how can you possibly provide any FACTUAL information?
Secondly, Toronto fans are insecure for good reason…allow me to explain:
When Danny Ainge was brought in to run the operation in Boston, he stated:
1. His goal (to bring a championship to boston within 5 years time)
2. How he planned on executing his goal (draft well, develop youth, acquire veterans to aid to Pierce, the franchise player who wouldn’t be going anywhere)
The difference in Toronto is that when Colangelo was brought in to run the franchise, he only stated:
1. His goal (to bring a championship to Toronto)
Let it be known that all GM’s have the same goal.
Since Colangelo hasn’t let the Toronto fans know of his ACTUAL PLAN, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know how if he is executing his plan.
So, Toronto fans SHOULD BE CONFUSED because they don’t know if BC’s plan is being executed or not. Simply put, if you don’t know the plan it is impossible to understand if it is being executed or not. They simply have no way of making an informed decision about weather Colangelo is doing a good job or not.
That’s my 2 cents…thoughts?
1) Khandor, at least you have a good sense of humour. Much love brotha!
2) Pike…oh man.
A) Jermaine stated yesterday that he prefered the Toronto deal over the Cleveland deal. This suggests that he had input on the trade and chose Toronto. Even if this was not the case, he did not cry, whine and pout about the trade like others have in the past. He has vocalized his appreciation of the city and his willingness to be here. The only point I was making was that not all NBA players hate Toronto. That’s it.
B) I don’t get your second point. What does BC’s plan have to do with Toronto fans’ insecurities? I don’t see a rationale connection. I think that the insecurities stem from our inferiority complex to those South of the Border who think we only know about hockey and ice fishing. Do you really think BC has no plan? Furthermore, why would he tell you? Here’s an analogy: I own a privately owned consumer goods company and I have an amazing new product that I’m about to release. Should I tell my customers about the plan because I owe it to them and let the competition pounce on the idea. That’d be silly. Additionally, Danny Ainge’s stated plan (btw, he is a former Blue Jay so I give him much respect) as summarized by you (if your recount is even correct) is a little facile don’t you think:
“Draft well, develop youth, acquire veterans to aid to Pierce…”
Wow. Pretty groundbreaking stuff. I’m pretty sure that is what every single team is trying to do. If that was his only plan, I’d wonder how he won an NBA Championship. I’m pretty sure, as a prudent businessman and GM, he is hiding almost everything else he is doing.
See you on the Court.
pike: that’s a really good point, and a source of confusion/resentment/disappointment with raptor fans everywhere. bc might very well have a system in place, but seemingly it looks like he doesn’t. would have been nice if he layed out a high level once he was hired, like ainge did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IKChbUhQok 7:14 Mark
B-Star,
A) Jermaine may have very well preferred Toronto over Cleveland (is he nuts?), but he had zero impact/involvement as to where he went. As far as I know JO didn’t have a no-trade clause in his contract. Do you think, once traded to Toronto, he was going to say, “man, this sucks…I totally wanted to land in Cleveland”….me thinks not. This is simply an example of “saying the right things” which guys in professional sports do all the time (see: Wallace, Rasheed). Furthermore, how do you know/what proof do you have that JO didn’t cry, whine, or pout privately to his family and friends while maintaining his professionalism and not making said crying, whining, and pouting public?
B) Q: “What does BC’s plan have to do with Toronto fans’ insecurities?”
A: I’m a fan of the Toronto Raptors. I am insecure about the current team and the teams future. I am insecure because our GM wants to bring a championship to Toronto, but I have no idea how he intends on doing so because he hasn’t told me. Since he hasn’t told me I am forced to start speculating, which of course, leads to insecurity. When beginning to speculate I quickly form the opinion that he (BC) certainly doesn’t plan on bringing a championship to Toronto via:
-drafting well (his two picks: Bargnani and Nathan Jawaii -two potential busts) -developing young players (has anyone not named Chris Bosh made noticeable improvements to their games?)
-acquiring veterans (certainly Jermaine O’neal isn’t bringing a championship to T-dot)
So, while Danny Ainge’s plan which he told the Boston media and its fans seems generic (“Draft well, develop youth, acquire veterans to aid to Pierce…”)…I was able to compare the present to the plan he stated on day 1 in 2003:
draft well – Al Jefferson, Delonte West, Tony Allen, Justin Reed, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, Orien Greene, Randy Foye, Jeff Green (selected on behalf of Seattle), Gabe Pruitt, Glen Davis (selected for Boston by Seattle), Bill Walker, J.R. Giddens.
develop youth – you probably didn’t watch the Celtics then, seeing as how they were terrible and not on national TV, but those terrible years from 2004-2007 were what’s known as “growing pains”. You know, years/time of terrible basketball that just had to happen to develop the youth. Know why I wasn’t insecure? Because I knew the plan, and knew that the develop the youth part of the plan naturally led to losses and years of lottery picks.
acquire veterans – with all those young guys Ainge drafted (and with Theo’s expiring contract) you/I just knew he was going to make a deal. I did not see that draft day deal coming (Delone/Wally/#5 overall pick for Ray Allen), but knew that once it happened the next phase of Ainge’s plan had been kicked into gear. Once Ray Allen got inked it still seemed like the C’s were a wierd combo of vets and youth. Then came the blockbuster trade for KG, which could only have happened by drafting well and developing the youth.
So, as you can see, as a fan of the Boston Celtics….through the years 2004-2007 I always “believed” because Ainge’s plan was unfolding right before my very eyes. Sure it was painful (remember when they lost 21 straight games?), but I was NEVER INSECURE BECAUSE I KNEW THE PLAN.
Game, set, match.
Your serve B-Star…
That analogy is beyond flawed.
It may be prudent of any owner of a company to be transparent or at least offer an outline of a plan (to gain profits) that may take place, in order to store confidence in its customers. The plan may change, yes, but that’s a give and understandable. Having an amazing new product is one thing and you can get it patented – protecting you form someone pouncing. Outlining a plan is another and nothing in your plan can be soo groundbreaking that someone hasn’t thought of it before. Had you said BC had a player that he didn’t want someone to know about, that’s a different story. But a plan on how to make this team a contender? No, sorry, no reason to hide that. All GM work on pretty much the same template or some variation there of, it’s just the players/staff you bring in that’s “different” or have different skills.
Sorry Pike.. didn’t see that..well played.
Fellas (Fluxland and Pike),
I think you are both making a fundamental attribution error. You are attributing a lack of success to a lack of a BC’s plan (to make the argument even more absurd a PUBLICLY STATED PLAN). You both criticized me for not having proof with respect to JO’s feelings about Toronto. You have no proof that BC doesn’t have a plan. Are you privy to a business model that I’m not? If you are, then I apologize and I agree with your argument. If you aren’t privy to Bryan’s everyday life (and I suppose you are not), then surmising that Colangelo, in your words Pike, doesn’t intend on bringing Toronto a championship, is proposterous. To make this even simpler, here is your argument: GM has stated plan, therefore, GM has championship aspirations. GM has no stated plan, therefore GM has no championship aspiration. Please give me concrete examples of any of the two logic patterns above. For example, show me that Pat Riley stated his plan in 2006 and then won that same year and that every other GM didn’t state their plan and didn’t win. Furthermore, what about GM’s that didn’t state their plan and then won the championship? The logic seems a bit flawed there because that would mean stating a plan is not a requirement. What if the Raptors were good? Would you still be insecure about them because you lack a publicly stated plan?
Fluxland, if the plan is so generic in the first place that you absolutely need it to feel good about the team, than what’s the point? You NEED to know he wants to draft well, you NEED to know he wants to develop players, you NEED to know he wants to acquire good vets? Jeez. In that case, I want to know why you read this great website because my generic assumption would be its because you like the Raptors, but I NEED to know because it might be because you like me or Pike or Arsenilist.
Pike, the umpire just called from the highchair. He reviewed the game and wants to take it back.
Okay…I’m proud to say that I can put all our insecurities to rest! I found BC’s plan. It look surprisingly similar to the saviour Danny Ainge’s. I also provided the link below:
“raptors.com: What do you feel the Raptors need in order to take that next step?
Bryan Colangelo: The Raptors have a good plan already in place, and fans have seen the results of that plan since the first of December after their tough start. We need to accelerate the development of our young players, manage our assets effectively, and to acquire players to surround Chris Bosh with who will position us well for the future.
The team is progressing in the right direction. I intend to lead that process to the best of my ability.”
I’ll outline the plan: (1) develop young players, (2) manage what we currently have, (3) acquire player to surround our franchise player.
I’m glad we will all sleep easily tonight. BC doesn’t explicitly say which players to surround Bosh with, but I think we can assume from point number 3 that he means veterans and young guys (through trades, free agents and draft). If this isn’t explicit (or generic) enough Flux, maybe you can go to the next Chalk Talk with Bryan at the ACC and get him to iron out the details. Hopefully you won’t lose to much sleep now.
Here is the link (the third question):
http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/colangelo_questions_0603.html
Phew!