It happened a year too late but it finally happened, Bryan Colangelo couldn’t tolerate another day of not having the coach of his choice running the team of his choice. So what took so long? Why didn’t he just not renew his contract and get his man in there last season? I’ll tell you why, because it takes balls to let the reigning Coach of the Year walk and Colangelo was lacking the cahones to pull the trigger last summer. We fans didn’t deserve to go through last season the way we did, it was too obvious that the coach wasn’t right for the team and vice-versa, yet we continued to chug along the regular season watching blunder after blunder until we finally backed into the playoffs. Once there we got served a dose of reality as Mitchell’s primary tactical move of starting Bargnani at the SF backfired worse than Plaxico Burress’ decision to carry a gun in the hem of his sweatpants. The season ended with a thud and Mitchell didn’t get fired which meant Colangelo was relatively content with his coaching, but as we now find out he’s not been happy with Sam’s coaching for quite some time now.
Mitchell haters, don’t get me wrong, I think he should’ve been fired…..when Colangelo took over. I suppose its better late than never but you can’t help argue Mitchell’s case. The roster he was given had more flaws in it than Roko’s shooting motion and expecting anything too much more than an 8-9 record is being unrealistic. I mean, what team did we lose to that we should’ve beaten? Maybe New Jersey, that’s about it because all the other games went according to Las Vegas. I mean, what did Mitchell do wrong this year that he didn’t do wrong last year? It’s the same sets, the same excuses, the same PG pressers, everything is the same. So why didn’t we can him at the end of last season and give the new coach the training camp to get ready. It’s called indecision and not having the ability to make up your mind.
There’s not much that already hasn’t been said in the earlier post and its comments but its worth repeating that the man’s paper-thin playbook was his greatest undoing. That could’ve been tolerated if the team gave an honest effort every night but since even that wasn’t happening, the only reason to keep him on became the fact that we were already paying him. Once eating his salary became acceptable to the powers at MLSE, Colangelo didn’t waste much time cutting Mitchell lose. I find it hard to believe that the two ever saw eye-to-eye. Mitchell was a no-nonsense, lunch-pail type player and he wanted to coach that way too. Unfortunately, that’s not Colangelo’s style as he’s shown that he prefers finesse over grit so that right there was a great philosophical difference.
Said Colangelo of Mitchell’s firing:
It’s safe to say that after the debacle that we all witnessed last night against Denver – a 39-point loss – not to mention several other incidents this early season where we gave up double-digit leads or had mental breakdowns with respect to the effort on the court. You come to a point where you realize some of the things you want to see out on the court are not taking place.
Right, and they were taking place last year? Now that Mitchell’s gone the focus shifts entirely on Bryan Colangelo. He made his biggest move of the summer before the free agent period even started and traded away anything that was tradeable in acquiring one player that was expected to (and still might) provide interior defense, low-block scoring and some rebounding. Unfortunately, after that trade we had no means of addressing the wing scoring and defense or the backup PG situation. We had no choice but to scrape the bottom of the barrel and we came up with Will Solomon and Hassan Adams, the latter being hailed as a steal since NJ was allegedly sooooo upset that they couldn’t offer him a contract. Colangelo hoped that Bargnani, Moon, Humphries and Kapono would have breakout years to make up for the lack of talent or depth on the bench. The marketing team came up with the phrase “concentrated talent”. Some bought it hook, line and sinker, some were skeptical and played along and some laughed at the idea. In the end it turned out that 2 of the 3 signings were a total bust and that the bench wasn’t even close to coming in and playing meaningful minutes. Colangelo had assessed the situation at the end of the playoffs incorrectly and now had no option but to can Mitchell since status-quo would not be acceptable and there’s no wiggle room to make a significant move. You know what they say, it’s easier to fire 1 coach than 15..er..14…13..oh..Jawai…12 players.
See Colangelo’s interview with Devlin here, seems like he can’t get the NJ game out of his mind either. He certainly believes in the roster he’s put together and thinks that his last two teams are underachieving and judging by his talk, he’s seeing the coach as the primary reason why. I agree that Mitchell’s cost this team a few W’s last year and has already had a couple brain-farts this year, but the roster assembled for him should be examined just as much as his coaching. If we’re looking at this firing to be the answer that makes this team a contender, we’re mistaken. This move will give the team a jolt and they’ll play a few games at a high level of intensity but as the effect of the firing wears off, the players’ inert nature will kick in and they’ll revert to their former non-caring selves. If Colangelo doesn’t see the desired response in the next couple of weeks, he’s got to make a move to fix the roster, not the guy giving directions to the roster.
To end the Mitchell talk let me just say that once players stop playing hard for their coach it’s time to go and judging by some of the recent performances which were capped off by the Nuggets game, it became clear that what Mitchell wanted to see on the court wasn’t happening and to make matters worse, the effort wasn’t there. Thinking of it in net terms, its a good divorce but it should’ve come much sooner because the reasons Colangelo fired him were not new at all.
Said Mitchell after being fired:
I don’t want to get into what’s fair or not fair. I learned a long time ago that the world’s not fair and life isn’t always fair.
Around 8 million to spend while not working. Oh, I think life’s more than fair.
Jose Calderon’s giving Sam Mitchell credit for making him his point-guard. Chris Bosh’s Facebook status is “I’m putting the past behind me. Today is a better day!”, other than that there’s not much reaction from the players. I’m sure they all feel shitty for getting a man fired. They’ll be practicing today and then heading out to Salt Lake City for tomorrow’s matchup against the Jazz.
Jay Triano and his 1-0 record take over. Colangelo says “he’s very impressed by his basketball IQ” and has full confidence in him. Colangelo probably has had a replacement for Mitchell in his mind for years and will finally bring him over when the situation has cooled off a little. Triano is the interim only to make it look like Colangelo’s decision was a reactionary one and not one made a long time ago. The best Triano can do here is get this team to play hard and compete. He should canvas the opinion of his fellow assistant coaches and almost coach by committee. Sam was a stubborn coach that didn’t defer to anyone and if Triano makes the same error of being adamant about his coaching philosophies he’s sure to repeat Mitchell’s mistakes. I’m looking forward to the Jazz game more than ever, we’ll see the difference in offense within the first few plays.
Here’s me and Raps Fan rambling about the firing (subscribe in iTunes):
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Kenny Smith on NBA TV was surprised why the Raptors fired a coach this early after an 8-9 start. His take was that this team was playing at the level they’re capable of and expecting anything more with this bunch was unreasonable. He also called Jose Calderon a “a good backup” who’s not close to being an All-Star. Take it with a grain of salt because this is the same guy that admitted to rarely watching the Raptors, if ever. That doesn’t mean there’s not a hint of truth in his take on Jose Calderon, especially given his recent performances. Insert hamstring talk here.
So Mitchell gets fired, hopefully this unshackles Hassan Adams and he can become the player that Colangelo envisions. Good luck to Mitchell, the post-game press conferences will never be the same. Maybe if he had just shown a little more offensive creativity, some common basketball sense and given the seemingly talented assistant coaches more say in the plays he runs and the sets he designs, it would’ve turned out differently. As it stands now, this is entirely Bryan Colangelo’s team and nobody can make excuses on his behalf by pointing at Mitchell anymore. 65 games to go, let’s see what you got.
Possible coaching candidates: Avery Johnson, Flip Saunders, Ettore Messina, Jeff van Gundy, Mark Jackson, Eddie Jordan, PJ Carlesimo, Dell Harris, Tom Thibodeau…..I think the next coach needs to have some experience so that there’s no on-the-job training and more importantly so that he can command the immediate respect of the players. We have a few veterans on this team that need to buy into the system we’re running and if players are iffy about what they’re doing on the basketball court, they’ll never perform up to their effort or talent levels. Look at Doc Rivers as an example, he’s gotten the Celtics to buy into defense, we need a coach who can sell the team something they feel enthusiastic and passionate about. “More Shats” wasn’t good enough, we need to set tangible, definable and realistic goals about what this team can do on the court and then go about achieving them in a systematic manner. This team needs to find an identity and stick with it, be about something specific rather than hand-wave about different basketball ideologies and achieve nothing in the process.
More tomorrow.



107 Raps
Look at what Kenny Smith said about Jose in this NBA TV interview.
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2008/12/04/nba_20081203_gt_mitchell_fallout.nba/
“They [Toronto] think he’s a great point guard???!!”
Haha. So true, so true…
“I agree that Mitchell’s cost this team a few W’s last year and has already had a couple brain-farts this year, but the roster assembled for him should be examined just as much as his coaching. If we’re looking at this firing to be the answer that makes this team a contender, we’re mistaken. This move will give the team a jolt and they’ll play a few games at a high level of intensity but as the effect of the firing wears off, the players’ inert nature will kick in and they’ll revert to their former non-caring selves. If Colangelo doesn’t see the desired response in the next couple of weeks, he’s got to make a move to fix the roster, not the guy giving directions to the roster.”
My thoughts exactly. Smitch was terrible but the teams he got the last two seasons are not as good as Colangelo thinks they are. Firing Mitchell does not mean everythings fixed and we can go back to dominating the East. BCs got to improve the talent and depth on the roster before we’ll see results.
That headline is…. bold? Wow.
Couple of point about podcast:
- please stop saying tough schedule. It is what it is. We are not playing teams from out of space, we are playing teams that everyone else plays. Sounds like an excuse and way of babying the team. Contenders don’t whine of the schedule. Please, cut that out.
- Arse, first you say no rookie coaches, but then you say Jackson?! Then again he played here, and he’s dying to coach…so I could see that. Not for it, but I can see it. And would be not sorta be getting JVG this way?
- BC said he plans on keeping Triano for the rest of the season.
- Firing COY – had he let him go, who was he going to sign and how dumb does he look it that guy would have had a shitty record?
- I’ve said it before, no coach (or player) wants to come here. How is this an ideal coaching situation, unless you are a rook?
- JVG? How is he different from Sam as far as wanting to play defense?
- Are we giving Adams a fair evaluation? He seem like a thick guy, should be able to D up and he seems athletic. I’ve seen a few games when he played in Arizona, he has no fear, that’s for sure. I don’t get people dumping on this kid.
- PJ? If anyone is a career assistant.. it’s this guy. Please.
- Good job, Raps Fan! You are special, don’t listen to Arse!!
Flux, the headline is sarcastic. I hope people get that.
I’m not advocating Mark Jackson, just throwing his name out there. I don’t believe a word of what BC says. He’s already got somebody lined up.
I’m not advocating JVG either, as I said he’s a bit overrated but I do think he’d bring in a more sophisticated offensive scheme than what Mitchell did.
You know what my Dad’s take on this is: He says that the firing was needed because the fans were losing interest in the team and would sotp going to games etc. This firing renews their false hopes. Interesting take by Arse Sr.
arse – agree, BC likely has a guy in mind, but ‘lined up’ might be a stretch.
JVG just signed a multi-year TV deal last month, can’t imagine he’d be able to break it, or want to, to coach the raps. although i’ll take ‘a bit overrated’ over ‘no experience as a coach anywhere, ever.’
the fans would stop going to the games because the team fucking sucked, had no heart (jawai’s extra biggie couldn’t make up for it), gave JV quality effort & was/is as boring to watch as a camel taking a piss.
i could honestly care less about smitch being fired/triano taking over, as i don’t think it’ll make one lick of difference. if BC turns around and shakes up the roster, that’ll be, IMO, a low-class move. he should be able to look at the pu pu platter he’s assembed and realize it’s not equipped to compete at the level he thinks it is. that, of course, is not to excuse lack of effort, hustle, preparedeness, pre-game strategy, in-game adjustments, etc etc etc etc.
flux – SoS is important, and the raps have had one of the harder scheds so far. it’s not an excuse, it’s a fact. if they’d played OKC, memphis & the other ‘real’ dregs of the league 15 times, they’d go 11-4 in those game…but it’s not like it wouldn’t be pointed out that they’re only beating crappy teams…just like it shouldn’t be ignored that they’ve played some really good ones (with more to come). of course, SoS loses a bit of impact WHEN YOU LOSE BY 40 FUCKING POINTS!
Arse, yeah, I was having trouble with the sarcasm.
I think the firing is to save the season with the fans as well, and for BC to save face. He keeps Sam and the season fails – he’s an idiot for keeping him around. Fire Sam and the season fails – oh well, at least he “mixed things up”, tried to do something. He just eliminated all expectations with the team. I can see the quotes now: “Well, we had a coaching change this season. Anytime there is a coaching change, there is an adjustment period, and given the slow start, I think the roster didn’t really get a chance to show us how well they can play together. We had expectations going into the season, but given how things played out, I’m proud of our guys and the effort they put in.” And you know every clown that was screaming 2nd in the East is going say: “What do you expect man? We didn’t even have a real coach this year”
Under the assumption that he keeps Triano for the season. BC now has one year to turn this team into a contender and make Bosh happy. Let’s see if he’s really worthy of his Executive err Salesman of the Year awards.
I hear ya on the offensive end with JVG, I just think he’ll be demanding the D, something BC obviously doesn’t believe in.
Smitch’s contract: 4 years, 3 mil per, for 12 mil overall. So, his 2.5 years of vacation will bring him 7.5 million dollars.
Kenny Smith never said that Jose was a bench player, he just said that Jose’s not “one of the best” PGs in this league. Considering his atrocious “matador” defense and his inability to ignite a fast-break that’s a fair assessment.
Eddie Jordan is known as the architect of those Nets Finals teams in the early Kidd era. I think that hiring him would be a a refreshing change from
watching Mitchell’s 1-play “offense”.
Raps Fan brought up a good point in defending JVG. He made those scrub-filled Rocket teams with Mac & Yao missing 40 games a season into 50(!)-win teams in a TOUGH western conference. Have the Raptors ever won 50 games. No we won 47 games in the “Atlantis” division which at the time was considered the worst in all of the 4 major North American sports and we raised a banner to celebrate this “accomplishment”.
Oh yeah, what’s the name of the song that you played at the start & the end of your podcast.
Yertu, I am just saying that on one end you can’t front this team as a Contender and best talent ever assembled in the history of mankind, and then cry about the schedule. Everyone plays the same teams, at some point or another. This is one month, and if this one is tough, then the next two are easy and we need to say they should go 13-0 or whatever the games are in January. I just hate, I repeat hate excuses, and they are piling up. Oh, well Jose and JO got injured for X amount of games, oh we switched coaches, oh we had a tough schedule in December. Is it me or are we the whiniest team/fanbase in the L?
Again, Goodbye playoffs! Hello lottery!
flux – not the whiniest, but probably the most paranoid.
and i’m with you, i’m tired of the excuses, and would have much preferred they make a much-needed roster move before canning the coach. it can be argued the players quit on the coach, and that may very well be, but it can also be argued that they quit on each other.
I’m not overwhelmed by the list of veteran NBA coaching candidates, so I’m happy to see Jay Triano get an extended opportunity to show his talents. If he takes care of business relatively well then he should finish the season and then the replacement should be acquired (perhaps Triano if he does well). There will be more options in the summer.
L – he did say that. I saw it on TV, it might not be in that clip but I have it recorded on my PVR. He called him a “backup”.
Nobody’s crying out over the schedule. All Raps Fan was saying (and he’s referring to a post I wrote earlier) is when the likelihood of his firing would be:
http://raptorsrepublic.com/blog/2008/07/31/overunder-date-for-sam-mitchell-firing/
I thought it would come Christmas time, khandor said 2nd/3rd week of December etc.
Yertu,
Yeah, my mind can’t help but keep thinking about JO. This team was much more together and had more chemistry, last year. Ever since he came in, I don’t see that. I know it’s a stretch, but I can’t help but think that he doesn’t like Jose – there was at least one instant, during a recent game, where Jose is saying something to him and JO looked like Jose was explaining the finer points of singularity theorems in Virginia Algonquian – and it seems he never liked Sam. More importantly what bothers me is that he has had a negative impact on Bosh, IMO. I have never seen him this attitudinal towards everything. This is not the CB4 I “know”. I think JO’s presence has caused a problem in the locker room, but it may not be very evident to us.
Arse, you guys used the word though or brutal schedule, what seemed like a dozen times. It’s not just you, either. It’s the mongoloids on RapsTV that keep saying it and it’s going to turn into the biggest excuse fest of the year. We know, everyone knows. It’s the 4th and I’ve heard tough December schedule a gazillion times already.
Kenny didn’t say Jose was a bench player did he? I thought he said he was “not one of the best”, which I would agree with.
Well flux, it is what it is – a tough part of the schedule. Nobody’s making any excuses, just pointing out facts.
My thoughts are that historically, coaches like Sam Mitchell have a shelf life (See: Scott Skiles – Chicago, etc.) Sam’s just finally met his expiry date and was no longer getting the most out of the players he has on the roster. At the end of the day, if Jay Triano gets this team amped up for 10 games based solely on the change, and brings in an offense with more than 3 plays, then the firing was justified and effective………
Arse, what’s the name of the song in the podcast??
About Jose… all I have to say is that the people who say that he’s an All-Star are homers or don’t follow the raptors closely enough. Celticsblog.com wondered recently whether Rajon Rondo is an All-Star this season. Any level headed person would know that he’s not. But Rondo’s stats are BETTER! Go head and see for yourself. Jose only scores 2 more points and gets 1.5 more assists while shooting 100% from the FT line (where he’s allergic to get to). In every other statistical measure Rajon is clearly better than Jose. All in all, my point is that Jose is not all that Devlin and all the crazy Jose fanboys make him out to be.
Sorry, the words used were nasty, ridiculous and really tough. Not arguing facts, Arse. I just see the schedule being used as an excuse more then this pathetic excuse of a team, in the long term, by the majority of fans. Hey, I said in #3, it is what it is and again, we are playing the same teams as every one else. I don’t see other teams crying about having to play those teams. NJ seemed to do well on their W.C. swing. Miami, NJ, Chicago beat Utah at home this year.. point is, other teams, regardless of roster take moments and trips like this as challenges and rise to the occasion. This team and some of its fans are already laying down the ground work for an epic beating, that will be OK and justifiable.. beacuse the schedule is “tough”. C’mon man… we are playing OKC, the Clippers and Sacramento during that 6 game swing. The Jazz have a 6 game E.C. swing this month. Portland has a tougher schedule then we do, IMO. Everyone is getting their share of “tough” schedule, other teams don’t cry about it.
Rajon Rondo plays with three hall-of-fame players. It’s always easier to be a PG when you have supreme talent around you. If Jose played in Boston I’m pretty sure he’d be averaging 12 assists a game and hitting 2.5 three per game.
Anyways, I know everyone wants to rag on Colangelo, but consider the Knicks.
Same roster as last season (worse if you consider they gave away randolph and crawford for magic beans and al harrington) but under D’Antoni they’re the surprise of the East, along with Miami.
A coaching change can definitely make a difference. We can complain about defense all we want, but we’re probably going to win more games trying to outscore people than trying to stop them. We’ll never win a championship that way, but we really should have the talent to make it past the first round.
I think that’s the realistic expectation BC has for the team.
The song is Hard Times by Baby Huey.
Hollinger on ESPN referred to Jamario as a “defensive ace” today. I had to chuckle. I know he is a stats guy, and Jamario gets a lot of blocks and a few steals, but that doesn’t make him a defensive ace.
IMO, the exact timing of this decision yesterday … of all days, when there was a “players only” meeting scheduled for the morning, in place of a regular practice session between games … is a key to understanding, in part, some of what is still insidiously wrong/corrupt with MLSE, and the way in which this organization chooses to conduct its pro sports related business.
Trust that I will be seeing and listening intently over the next little while to the words and the quotes which come directly from the different parties involved in this decision, made yesterday … to decipher accurately what it means for this franchise, short and long term, going forward from here.
To wit:
Analysis: Mitchell firing not a surprise
“This team’s a lot better than an 8-9 record,” Colangelo said during a late afternoon teleconference. “Despite the criticism of this roster, this is a roster that was put together on a consensus basis…you might look back at last season, and the games, a series of games, where we underachieved. Expectations were high.”
Which players chose to speak in that locker room after the Denver game?
Did that “players only” meeting happen Wednesday morning?
Prior to this decision being made?
Or, did that meeting not take place at all?
Who exactly was running this team, at that moment when Sam Mitchell was relieved of his coaching duties with the Raptors, from amongst this specific group of players?
And, to whom is that person[s] reporting?
What was really accomplished by making this move yesterday?
It’s all an elaborate a game of chess, my friends … and, Every Move Must Have A Purpose.
Part of the fun lies … in trying to figure out what that purpose actually is.
It’s very depressing as a fan to see your home team slowly turn to shit and go through so much uncertainty. For the past 3-4 years when things got horrible as least you could’ve looked down the standings and thought “At least we’re not the Knicks…” But now that the Knicks have turned they’re franchise 180 degrees and got all that cap space I’m really worried about what the Raptors becoming a shit team – a la LAC – in the next 3-4 years. We dont have any assets besides Bosh, JO’s exp. contract and Jose (who’s getting more and more exposed with every game he starts and therefore is losing his stock).
We don’t have any system set in place and even if Jay Triano does a moderately good job he’s still a nobody and no good players would want to come here. And last but not least, the owners of this team are cheap greedy bastards who aren’t willing to invest money to go to the next level.
The only way that we can get to the next level is by ripping another team off like the Lakers did last year or throwing away the next couple of seasons in hopes of getting a couple of young studs.
It would really be disappointing as a diehard fan to watch Raptors lose in the first round for the next 5 years and hopefully BC really pulls something out of his ass and turn this ship around.
Doug Smith is really pissed that he was wrong about Smitch! Telling your readers to go to hell!?!?!?!?!? Pretty strong words there Doug!
From http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/:
“Okay, had your fun? Some of the e-mails were cool, joking, mocking, cutting up and that’s all cool. The idiots and mindless creeps who made it personal? I hope you go read From Deep every day and make the life of M. Grange ™ miserable. Actually, I hope not because I quite like Mike. I hope some of you rot in the depths of some very hot and uncomfortable place, though.”
Ouch.
“Jermaine O’Neal chaired a players’ meeting after Tuesday’s 132-93 thrashing by the Nuggets.”
Khandor, does that help?
As I was saying in 13.. something about this guy.. very shady.
RR repping on Ball Don’t Lie.. woot woot!!
Now that Smitch and Chuck Swirsky are gone from the Raptors orbit, when can we get rid of Doug Smith’s blog? Seriously though, all the “characters” around the Raptors are now gone.
Can we get rid of Leo, Devlin and the entire RapsTV crew?
Flux,
Original source of quote, please.
Thanks, in advance. : )
I’m sure Doug’s inbox is full of dumb emails from immature & rude RealGM posters.
Big news day in Raptorsland.
I too didn’t expect it to happen at that moment, but I too, cannot dissagree with BC’s decision.
In BC’s media conference call, he owned up taking as much of the blame for our record – but I sensed that his tone was that it was due mainly to having kept Smitch around as long as he did.
Today is the start of the post-Smitch era.
Khandor,
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/basketball/2008/12/04/7625366-sun.html
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2008/12/04/7628651-sun.html
Same guy.
No worries.
JSYK, you can always goggle the quote. You should be able to get the source. ; )
I hope Denver is reading this: “The Denver Nuggets are a good team, but not that good.”
dougs mad at me,i emailed him asking what he would do now without sams dick in his mouth….doug loved sam so much he was blinded by sams indiscretions…..GOD DAMN IT FEELS GOOD NO MORE FUCKING RETARD SAM!
Great take, Arsenalist. Nice and balanced from both sides. This is my first comment on the site so I just wanted to say fantastic work in general. #1 Raps site, period.
B-star: I have to side with Doug on this one. We all know that any conversation on realGM deteriorates into monkeys throwing feces at each other after a few posts. Some moron in one thread was encouraging people to go and slam Doug for being a homer. Yes, he was wrong about Mitchel. But from what I’ve seen from some previous comments in his Blog, people call him fat, retarded, etc. No excuse for that. Maybe he’s getting some flack for previously stating that bloggers do not have the same level of insight as beat grunts. Still, from the crap that gets posted by the children on RealGm, I have no doubt that Doug’s rebuttal was totally warranted.
how bout doug get another job or be assigned to cover the cfl.our beat writers are blind,scared and spineless.they are more concerned with maintaining a rapport vs honest journalism.i’ll take arse’s take on things vs dougie and dougies getting mad money doing what?telling us that sams great?…fuck him.
journalistic integrity….and 90% of the dudes covering our team have none….eric smith is another huge kiss ass wanker.
Smith usually brags about how good he’s got it.
So now we’re jealous of the Knicks?
Give me a break, man. The Knicks have been absolutely terrible and just threw away the next two years. I love their choice of D’Antoni as a coach cause I think he’s really good (and he’s done well so far with the Knicks), but the Knicks will collapse and not make the playoffs this year or the next. The Raps at least have a viable team that can win some games and hopefully make the playoffs. Yeah, we’ve got problems, but still, no comparison between the Raps and the dysfunctional Knicks.
Andiamo – you’re entitled to your opinion obviously. But your style speaks for itself. I agree with a lot of what you are actually saying, which is why I read this and other Blogs about the Raps. But Doug is a genuinely nice guy. I never agreed with his take on Smitch either, but I wouldn’t resort to childishness in defending my position. Which is why I come here and try to avoid real gm. Anyway, nuff said.
Nice article Arsenalist.
I agree with Andiamo with the thoughts on journalistic integrity. You see the same thing with politicians, where the beat writer is more interested in maintaining a solid “insider” relationship while spewing out propaganda and bullshit. And then 5 years later, the reporter comes out with a tell-all book. There is no sense in having a close relationship with a team if you aren’t going to tell the readers the truth, but instead just repeat what the team is saying. Isn’t that why blogs kind of started up? So people not close to teams and politicians could honestly report what was happening? I mean, we don’t know tons of details of what happening, but yeah, we can see the direction the ball is rolling.
Khandor, you’re giving BC and MLSE too much credit if you think this move is anything but a reaction to this season, and perhaps last. There is no conspiracy towards mediocrity though that is obviously the result that fans of the team have got thus far. They are not that smart, no one is.
What I got from listening to the various Colangelo quotes out there is that he thinks this roster is better than its record but is not sure. Smitch was a problem because he was obviously having trouble getting through to the team. Maybe that was Smitch’s fault, maybe it’s the players BC has assembled. BC sounds like he has at least entertained the idea of blowing the whole thing up – something he did to a degree when the Starbury/Amare team made the playoffs but was not really that good. That blow-up produced one of the best teams of all time in my opinion – the D’Antoni Suns. He wants to get rid of Smitch and see what the team has without the filter a coach can create if the GM and coach are not on the same page. He wants to evaluate the roster in this way before he makes moves with long-term consequences. None of this can be proven and even if it can be, none of this makes BC the best GM ever. I, however, think he’s competent, perhaps more than that. I may be wrong. We’ll see.
jord – how, exactly have the knicks ‘thrown away’ the next two seasons? they were horrible with the ‘good’ players they traded away (z-bo, crawford, etc.), and it’s not like the guys they got back are as bad as, say, most of the raptors bench guys. they’re simply moving in a different direction…it’s not like they were a 45-win team last year, blowing it up to make a run in two years. they’ll be, at worst, WAAAAY more competitive this year (and next) than they have been for the last 3. and at the very least, they’ll be entertaining to watch. as for the knick/raptor comparo…i’d say their chances for making the post-season, right now, are about even. only difference is, the knicks are actually in play for a big FA in ’10, and if things keep going downhill in raptorville, TO won’t be.
melikeraptors – smith, for all the ‘inside’ information & ‘special’ access his press credentials afforded rarely, if ever, actually provided any information that wasn’t already available elsewhere. he did break a few stories, not saying he was completely useless, but his writing style is very condascending, and he carries himself with an air of importance that seems misplaced. he loved to cater to newb bball fans who liked to ask such scintillating questions as ‘where does sam get his suits? you’re the best, doug, all the hard work you do is really appreciated!!’ & ‘what’s a ‘travel?’
khan – good call on the firing, and from last spring, no less! of course, you didn’t actually predict that he’d be fired; what you did was establish two variables, both of which were entirely plausible (if not probable): the raps losing to orlando, and being under .500 after the 1st 20 games of the ’08 season (given the schedule), and stated that if these variables were met, BC’s MO was to make a coaching change, as he had in the past. i mean, it’s still very good insight and all, but it’s not like you came out, in april, and said, ‘in december ’08, sam mitchell will be fired.’ you laid the groundwork for what would be considered a possible time-frame for his firing, but the criteria upon which that groundwork was based was fairly obvious (i.e. poor playoff showing, poor start to season).
i know, i know…
Jord: Agreed, but here’s part of a comment from Doug’s blog today regarding his ineptitude on the posibility of Sam getting fired:
“You must admit that the tone of your reply is: “get on with it”, “enough of talking about sam’s sackin”; “let’s be serious here”, etc.
and that was hours before sam got indeed sacked. my point is not about your own view of the sacking, with which I in fact empathize. The worry is that you didn’t think that was an issue worth talking about, while it so obviously was; since it was just hours from happening
your job can’t just be to comment things as they happen or after they happen. your job is also to predict, investigate, find out. ”
Not much different than a lot of the comments here – just without the venom and the insults. Anyway, just my opinion.
Where DOES Sam get his suits?
Sam, I’m sorry, how do you get the impression that he is not sure? The man sounds utterly convinced that is a championship caliber roster and the problem all along has been Sam. To me at least.
Also, there may be no conspiracy toward mediocrity perhaps, but certainly a case can be made that there isn’t a desire to build a contender. If anything people are giving BC too much credit and credibility towards his goals over the next two years,IMO, and there is no evidence to prove his intentions (towards building a contender). In essence, no proof of either way.
Now (or even prior to) that Sam is gone, I really don’t see what sort of move BC can pull that will convince Bosh to stay. All reports indicate that no legit coach is interested in dealing with this roster, that there is no interest in any players BC is willing to give up, and that Bosh in not happy with this situation.
Sam,
Nothing in what I’ve written has given MLSE/Bryan Colangelo “credit” for being something other than:
1. Very good at making money; and,
2. Operating a pro sports franchise in an “average” way on the court.
At least, not as far as I know.
IMO, the evidence is actually there to suggest … by seeing and listening attentatively … that there is precious little of a long term viable plan in place today with the leaders of this organization to ever bring a NBA championship to the City of Toronto.
In general, the message that I got is that Bryan Colangelo is not exactly very sure about a whole lot of things…. and then, extremely sure of certain other things.
Flux, I caught a portion of BC’s conference call on the TV this morning while getting ready for work. I heard him say he wants to evaluate the roster before deciding on whether to make any trades. A bit later he said he’s been pitched a variety of deals, including ones that would “blow” the roster up. The way he said it made it sound like he wasn’t ready to do that but that was a possibility that had entered his mind. Later he talked about how an underachieving team attracts GM’s offering bad deals like a rotting carcass attracts vultures at noon (my words, not his). Sounds like he wasn’t ready to make those panic trades. He’s blown up “good” teams before with great results if my memory of the Starbury Suns is correct. But like I said, I may be wrong about the Suns and Colangelo. We’ll see.
And show me one “legit” report indicating that coaches won’t come to Toronto – the 4th or 5th largest media market in North America with the 11th most valuable NBA team. A chance to coach Bosh and Calderon surely ranks higher than a chance to suck in Oklahoma so there’s one job offer the Raptors can likely top.
yertu,
re: khan – good call on the firing, and from last spring, no less! of course, you didn’t actually predict that he’d be fired; what you did was establish two variables, both of which were entirely plausible (if not probable): the raps losing to orlando, and being under .500 after the 1st 20 games of the ‘08 season (given the schedule), and stated that if these variables were met, BC’s MO was to make a coaching change, as he had in the past. i mean, it’s still very good insight and all, but it’s not like you came out, in april, and said, ‘in december ‘08, sam mitchell will be fired.’ you laid the groundwork for what would be considered a possible time-frame for his firing, but the criteria upon which that groundwork was based was fairly obvious (i.e. poor playoff showing, poor start to season).
Congrats! This is by far the most accurate comment I have read yet, from you, concerning something which I have written on-line. Akin to what Flux has tried to tell you already … my tendency is [in fact] to give credit when & where credit given is due. This time, it’s to you.
BC speaks in a way and does things “in front of” fans, like a true salesman, that appear to be in the best interest of the customer. Bottom line is, everything he does is in the interest of his employer.
Some of the things he has done has people convinced that they are towards making this team a contender by 2010. A case could be easily made that moves are being made to blow this popsicle stand up and start from scratchola. To each his own I guess. The “optimists” will always believe that the sales guy his best interest at heart. Oh how naive people can be.
Sam, OBVIOUSLY, the guy will examine all angles, or at the very least make it appear he is. I don’t know what deals BC is talking about, since I read somewhere there is ZERO trade talks going on. Read the various newspapers, draw your own conclusions. Someone must be lying.
Look at his record with the Suns, man. Forget the players caliber. Look at the results and tell me what you see so great about his tenure there.
Look, I am sure Toronto is a great city, with many positives, with passionate fans and an ownership group that thanks to those fans (regardless of product) has made it profitable. From a bball POV, this roster, regardless of Bosh and Jose, offers nothing beyond that, so who would want to coach a team that is going nowhere?
An out of job NBA coach will be open to taking any job, there are far worse situations in the league than the Raptors and insinuating that the franchise repels coaches is frankly absurd.
You may not respect BC but fact is that he does garner it from around the league (for whatever reason). Every reporter that I’ve talked to speaks highly of him and the reviews about his work are generally favorable. I think Chris Bosh and the Raps are attractive to a potential head coach, especially one seeking a challenge. No, we won’t be getting Phil Jackson here but there’s no reason whatsoever that a legit NBA coach will not coach in Toronto. It’s not like the Raptors are run by Donald Sterling or anything. The Teacher’s Pension Plan and MLSE aren’t ideal owners but its not as if they’re holding the Raptors back from contention.
Somebody name me one coach that we’ve wooed who rejected our offer. There are only 30 NBA jobs out there and nobody gets too picky when offered one.
Less than 24 hours after getting shitcanned, the ESPN NBA front page has nothing nada zilch about Mitchell.
Noooooooooobody cares.
I never said the franchise did, I said this particular roster does (due to its bench)
Yes, it’s logical an unemployed, inexperienced coach would take any job.
He garners respect from the GMs cuz he knows how to make money. If you think every GM is in it to win a chip, you are wrong, IMO. He is nice to reporters and always accommodating, that’s all it takes to make them happy.
Who is holding the Raps from contention, Arse? Sam was?
There are countless of examples of coaches turning down offers. Doug C, JVG, Coach K.. just as I am typing this come to mind.
There is no evidence of what you are looking for cuz teams only tell you what they think you need to know. GET REAL!! How come BC hasn’t told us what other offers were on the table for TJ (for example). There were 5.
Sam:
“But when asked if there is any kind of realistic deal on the horizon, a team source familiar with trade discussions emphatically said “Nope. No.”
And Arse what are these variety of deals that are being pitched? How come we are not being told about that? What in the world make you think you would hear about a coach being wooed and rejecting the offer, if that was the case, when you can’t even find out the “crazy deals being pitched”? Riddle me that.
Of course BC does everything in the interest of his employer…it’s a freaking business! It’s the same thing with players, they are out to make bucks and put in some work. The only altruists in sports are the fans. We enjoy watching and following teams for the pure entertainment of it. GMs, owners, coaches, and players are doing their jobs, whatever that might be. I don’t believe BC is just trying to make money while “selling” an average team though. I’m sure he, and the entire MLSE would love to win. Just without spending more than they have to. And actually, I’m ok with that. I mean, I hate getting junky players, but I don’t mind the challenge of cheering for a team that wants to stick to the salary cap. We might never win a championship, but the entertainment value can be the same.
And with the Knicks, they were terrible for three or more years, and now they’re .500 or so only a few games into the season with a roster that just looks putrid. My opinion (not researched or anything) is that they had an easy schedule, got some lucky wins, or teams misjudged them and so they’ve managed to put a decent record together. I bet they totally collapse eventually. Plus the Knicks are not really in a great position. Ok, they can bet some free agents in 2010, but right now and next year they’re going to be bad. Really bad. Unless they sign a couple big time free agents, even Lebron isn’t going to be able to work with a Knick team that features David Lee at centre, Duhon at point, and Robinson at shooting guard. Yuck.
Anybody want to start a pool as to the date when Andiamo turns on Jay Triano?
Bosh is the bottle-neck at the top of the bottle. He must be traded for 2 or 3 solid athletic players. Pull the trigger, BC.
Bargs can play PF with JO at C. Bosh is our best and only trading chip, and it’s obvious he will be leaving the Raptors now .. so trade him asap and get it over with.
I am bored with Bosh’s all-star MVP quest so that he can boost his 2010 market value. I am bored with his predictable play … jump shot or drive and flop. Send him off into one of the Texas teams so he is close to his home and away from the Eastern conference.
You think Avery and JVG have not been pitched to (and rejected offers) prior to various teams hiring rookies coaches for this season? What? They have been blacklisted from the NBA? That’s why they are not coaching?
Jord, I’ll give you that much. Everyone has different expectations.. you have no issues cheering for a team that will never win a chip, all the power to ya. Just don’t expect everyone else to follow that dream. And btw, you don’t have to tell me it’s a business or how one operates.
All I am saying is that it’s a little ridiculous to blame the coach for not winning, when he is not being given the tools to do so. Many a “experts” are saying little can be done with this roster, regardless of the coach, and to them this firing makes no sense. This was done purely for the fans and for BC to be able to say: “I didn’t sit on my hands”.
The Boston ownership broke bank and didn’t even break even to win that chip. They did it simple because they wanted to raise a banner in Boston. MLSE had zero freaking desire to do so, and I don’t get how anyone who supports the team, invests their money, time, emotion into it, is not a little miffed by that.
Jdbar… that was gold! Just remember..Triano is going to make them a MILLION times better the Sam. A MILLION! I don’t even know what that means.. but I am looking forward to it. GOOO JAY-T.
Here’s a trade that I just plugged into the ESPN trade machine, and it works. Just throwing it out there, but what do you think of this trade:
Bosh (hear me out) and Parker for Amare and Barbosa
Let’s run! Bargs can run, put Kapono at the three and reinvent the 7-seconds-or-less strategy. Also, I think Amare will be easier to keep than Bosh, sadly. The question is can Jose handle it, and I think he probably could. Thoughts?
Suns would never do it Aaron, but I think the Raps would in a heartbeat.
i’ll turn on triano friday if he does bonehead sam moves..
Hollinger ESPN Insider piece about the Raptors:
Aaron, I think I’d stick with Bosh. Amare needs Nash just as much as Marion did. They run that two-man game to perfection and I’m not sure if Jose can emulate Nash that way. I think Phoenix produces players that are best suited in Phoenix, I know it sounds dumb but they have a distinct style of play which if you copy, you will fail miserably because you lack the floor general necessary.
Take Bosh and Amare out of the equation I’ll pull the trigger right now but I don’t think Kerr is that desperate to save 4.5M. And I don’t even know why they’d ever trade Barbosa who’s a pretty good player locked into a reasonable contract: 6-7M per over the next four years.
Andiamo, nice response :). Thank you for having a sense of humour about my little dig at you. Nice to see that on the ‘Net.
As much as I like Bargnani, I’d rather trade him than Bosh. I think (hope) that Bargs will turn into something good, but we know that Bosh is already capable of playing at a high level (offensively). What could we get for Bargnani? There must be some GM that can be suckered into giving us a good player and a high pick. I mean, Bargnani is a 7-footer and you can’t teach height, right?
That said, we just got rid of the coach, maybe we should hang on for a few games and see if Triano can turn this team into, well, a team. Perhaps a few plays to get guys like Kapono and Parker open shots, or some plays to get Bosh and O’Neal some easier dunks, will get this team rolling again. Plus, maybe everybody will stay sufficiently embarrassed enough to play harder until the playoffs…
How come I can picture Andiamo watching the Raps on TV and twirling a knife, muttering under his breath!
Love it, man!
Jord, I’m honestly thinking hard about making #63 the Rap of the Day.
Seriously though, Andiamo is great.
Flux,
Neither of the 2 links you gave actually answered the question I asked, re: the “players only” meeting that was scheduled for Wednesday morning. Those two articles are referencing the post-game “players only” meeting that happened in the locker room on Tuesday night.
These are two different meetings.
Apparently:
* Jermaine O’Neal chaired the post-game meeting.
* Jose Calderon spoke, as well.
* Chris Bosh did not speak at that meeting.
What I want to know now is this:
1. Did that 2nd “players only” meeting happen on Wednesday morning?
2. If it did … Did it happen prior to Colangelo’s decision to fire Sam Mitchell?
3. Who chaired and who spoke at THIS 2nd meeting?
Any help on this would be sincerely appreciated.
http://www.firejaytriano.com/
arse, i second the nomination to make # 63 rap of the day.
man…fire jay triano? are you guys serious? the guy hasn’t even done anything yet, lol.
Man those NBA TV guys have no clue about the situation. The look on their faces is like “we might as well be doing commentary on the middle-eastern situation”. Like uhh whats their record?
Chris Bosh wants out to save his career .. that’s obvious. Now we watch if he does a slow vince or if BC obliges him and arranges a decent trade.
Let’s not deceive ourselves because that’s the reality now.
re #69; there is no way that it would go down like that- bosh is not vc, and BC is not babcock. Bosh is a stand up guy with pride and honour, and would not lie and punk out on the team like wince did, and BC will be proactive with bosh and determine if he actually wants to lead this franchise for the next 5-6 years. If Bosh doesn’t like the direction BC is taking the team, he will be moved, for value. your comment is very ‘chicken little’….
Flux and Khandor – don’t you guys get tired of spouting the same crap over and over again. The idea that BC is deliberately trying to keep the team at a level that is just good enough to make money is ridiculous. Teams that win a lot make more money than teams that are merely mediocre.
As for the Smitch firing, it had to happen. No team can be successful if the GM and coach don’t share the same vision as to the identity of the team. BC and Smitch clearly did not. It’s just a shame that it took this long for this to happen. I’m very interested to see if Triano can get the Raptors to play with more focus and execution.
khandor reported:
* Jermaine O’Neal chaired the post-game meeting.
* Jose Calderon spoke, as well.
* Chris Bosh did not speak at that meeting.
…………..
This tells us that JO is now the veteran leader of the team and Bosh has relinquished any leadership role. If Bosh said nothing at the meeting that speaks volumes about his future intention … because the NBA is a “business” and as we all know, Bosh is taking care of his “business”.
Let’s be realistic about the locker-room situation .. it’s grim and no amount of handing out Gatorade by Jose will help the team.
The rebuilding of the Raptors must begin now, after the release of Sam. There must be significant trades, and those trades may well involve Bosh. I know that tribal honking fans will cut their wrists if they have to trash their CB4 jerseys, but holding on to Bosh’s one-man style of play is ruining good team play on offense AND defense.
I would welcome trading Bosh for Amare and Diaw not Barbosa as somebody mentioned. The Raptors desperately need athletic NBA bodies to save the team from disaster. The trades must begin soon, otherwise the team will tank by the third quarters of their games. Bad entertainment ….!!!!
If Bosh leaves no player will come here or respect Toronto. He’s a Raptor, simple as that. This team is still only a wing player from being really strong starting core. I know the bench is weak but it could work.
No thanks to Amare. Bring in guys who grew up near Toronto.
No thanks to Euro coach. NBA proven please.
I believe BC when he says he’s building a winner here. I know his record but he is an egomaniac and believe he will not rest and settle for mediocre.
Sorael,
May I ask you the following question?
As a loyal Raptors fan …
At what point will you ever be prepared to stop spouting the same message over and over again? … concerning what you seem to see as the best efforts of MLSE to put an entertaining product on the floor and, if all goes well, consistently compete with the best teams in the NBA on a regular basis, while continuing to turn a healthy profit, as any sound business venture should?
If you’d prefer not to answer this specific question … that’s okay with me. Perhaps, in that case, you’d also like to retract the question you asked of Flux and me, in your comment #71.
If your answer is forthcoming … that’s terrific, I look forward to reading it.
——————————–
re: The idea that BC is deliberately trying to keep the team at a level that is just good enough to make money is ridiculous. – by Sorael
——————————–
Flux can provide his perspective on this for himself, but … from my POV … I don’t think I’ve ever said that what Bryan Colangelo is doing is deliberately keeping the team at a level which is just good enough to make money.
There’s a difference between [i] Keeping the quality of a product down on purpose, in order to make more money, and [ii] Not having the know-how and/or being prepared to do what it actually takes financially [and otherwise] to win a championship in the NBA, when it comes at the expense of failing to making a bottom-line profit for the owners of that same business venture. At least, in my book, there is.
——————————–
re: Teams that win a lot make more money than teams that are merely mediocre. – by Sorael
——————————–
Not sure I read the headline correctly, earlier today, but … Did the New York Knicks not just get tabbed as the most profittable franchise in the entire NBA?
If so, the veracity of your observation here might not be completely accurate.
Khandor,
I never said my links answered ALL your questions. They were to help with you 1st one. My sources are working on getting you the rest of that info. BC has stopped answering my calls and questions on his Blackberry, so there may be a delay. : ) That second meeting sounds to me like was held by someone with management with the players only. I don’t think the decision to fire Sam was made after Tuesday.. read into what Phil Jax said as you like. And if it was only players, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t chaired by Roko or Adams or Will. JO said Tuesday that game was the final straw, so I think it may be safe to think it was him again. Just my thoughts.
Soreal, this team makes plenty of money, win or not. Not sure what you are trying to say.
Paps, I agree with that 1st line.
Agree with pretty much everything FAQ has been saying for the last little while.
Duncan, are you a personal friend on CB and have 1st hand information of this or are you basing your opinion on his TV interviews and website?
FTWIW, I think the players were told well in advance that a few losses will ensure Sam being gone. IMO, that explains their lack or effort and conduct during games on this road trip. I am will to go as far back as the start of the season and speculate that BC told a few of them if losses pile up, he will can Sam. Very interested to see how the players play over the next few games.
74 – gold. Thing is though, Khandor, as you see from Jord’s comment today, (and I suspect this is the case with many “true” Raptor fans) mediocrity and never contending for a chip while being entertained, is completely acceptable. See 52.
How can anyone doubt that a team that wins would make more money than a team that doesn’t win?
It’s completely disingenuous to compare two DIFFERENT teams such as the Knicks and the Spurs because the Knicks make money based not on their record but the fact that they occupy the largest market in the league.
A more obvious comparison would be would the knicks make more money than they do now if they were a winning team?
Replace any team into that equation and it’s just common sense. Of course the Raptors would make more money if they won championships than if they were mediocre. That’s just common sense.
Really Simon? Common sense? Last year Boston won the chip and didn’t make money, can you break down the common sense there for me?
I thought Boston made money last year. Give me a source on that claim.
Well, if you want a bit of blow-it-up thinking what about pitching O’Neil to Miami for Marion and either a draft pick or Cook? They need a big man and O’Neil is that. He might be able to help that team more than Toronto. Marion, headcase though he is, might also be able to make a significant improvement in the Raptors perimeter defence. And his contract gives Toronto space to sign a free agent next year in the hopes of (maybe) wooing Bosh and perhaps someone else from the summer of 2010 crowd. Frankly, I think that deal makes sense for both teams.
Flux,
Sorry about that. Mix up from my end … because I’d already posted info about JO & JC speaking at the post-game “players only” meeting in the other thread yesterday. Thought you were trying to help me out with the answer[s] to Q2-7 from comment #22 in here.
Hmmmmmmmm……..
“In professional sports, an owner’s commitment to winning right out of the gate counts, according to a Globe compilation and analysis of championships won by the last two rounds of owners for every team in the four major US sports leagues. If new owners don’t win a championship within five to eight years of buying a team, depending on the sport, their chances of ever doing so decline dramatically, the Globe found. Many will never win.”
“Indeed, winning helps owners fill seats, make money, and attract talent. But many of them can’t seem to pull it off.”
“Very often, owning a sports team is simply a vehicle for very wealthy owners to promote their other assets.”
“Among the 30 current NBA owners, and the 27 before them, 10 have won championships. (Some of those have won multiple times.) Half grabbed their first title within five years. Two did it in six or seven years. Three pulled it off in 11 to 15 years.”
Draw your own conclusions. I’ve said if before and say it again, the LOB will not be raised at the ACC within our lifetime.
Sam, I have no reason to make that up. Why would I make it up, dude? I read it somewhere after they won in black and white. I’ll look for it tho. Still working on that pic of Matt C’s wife for Arse, as well.
Khandor, no worries. : ) I missed your comment in yesterdays thread then, cuz I wouldn’t have bothered posting that had I known you knew.
LOL arsenal.. “The roster he was given had more flaws in it than Roko’s shooting motion ” hahahah …I noticed that about him long time ago and in Croatia thats what everyone says, Roko’s first guy from the whole region of excellent shooters that cant really shoot.. Its not just his unortodox shooting motion cuz no1 would care if the shats got in, but when they dont its just silly.
However quickness of gettin to the basket got him to where hes at. And he told me that improving his shot is his #1 priority, working every day with good coaches and trainers hopefully he’ll get better as year goes on.
As for the New beginning in the raptors odyssey tomorrow night.
I think theyll make it competitive but still fall short at the end. its in Utah after all, no1 leaves winning from there
way to bring it back to what really matter, money…ROKO!!!
FREE ROKO!!!!!!!!
I think Bryan had no intention to keep Sam with the extension offer. He tried to low-ball Sam. Unfortunately Sam knew himself too well to venture out to try the market and took the extension offer. Ever since, Bryan has been waiting for an opportunity to fire him. I predicted Sam would be fired during this west coast trip. And I was right on.
I think the next coach will be one with experience in Euro basketball. Bryan desperately needs someone who can bring the best out of Bargnani. Babcock couldn’t survive messing up a #7 draft. The same fans will not forgive Bryan if Bargnani turns out to be a bust. They will boo him out of town.
Hey, I didn’t mean that I don’t care if the Raps win or lose. I mean, I get frustrated and morose when they lose (and I wanted to rip out my computer and throw it at the wall after the loss in Denver), but it’s not super easy to win a championship in any league except the CFL. I want the Raps to be competitive and have a plan for the future. I thought, and still think, that the O’Neal trade could work out. But now we have terrible wings and no bench. That pisses me off, but I’m not throwing BC and the entire Raps away this year. We’re only a quarter through the season. We’ve seen some good and some bad. I’m still optimistic that the Raps can salvage this season. Maybe the new coach will help, or maybe a trade is needed.
Jord,
If possible … Please explain “the plan” you’ve seen unfolding for this franchise, since Feb 2006?
Flux, thanks for the shout-out. I suppose what I should have said is that CB appears to be a guy who holds himself accountable and takes pride in his word and his reputation, and IMO, would not quit on his team and franchise like vince did. No, I don’t know CB on a personal level, I just see how he carries himself, and form my opinion from that. I’m just like everybody else who takes the time to post here, theorizing on what we think.
Not really.. weird name guy, everything has been said about Sam and the raptors.. not a couch coach or “wannabe professional sports GM from my computer-room” like you guys so i didnt wanna get into the important “Amare for Bosh” or TJ was the shit discussion..
Just read this and saw interesting comment about my reason for actualy watching raptors this year.
What matters to everyone is that raptors do good. and they do good if each player does good. reach a conclusion.
whats wrong with free roko? are u a FREE WILLY type!?
Duncan, comment more often dude! I always say: the more the merrier. Thanks for the reply. MoneyCarlo and Roko are tight, thought maybe you and CB kick it. Anyhow, as far as his accountability, how come Bosh hasn’t said anything in the post Sam firing comments about it being on the players as well? Did I miss it? I really think the Bosh we “knew” is not the same person anymore..IMO, he has bought into his own hype and thinks he is above the rest of the team. I don’t doubt he is worried about his reputation tho.
Khan, I wrote that I WANT the Raps to have a plan, not necessarily that they have one. But I guess I’ll take the bait and argue that there is a bit of a plan, albeit one that changed with the addition of O’Neal. I like BC’s first idea, a team that focuses on ball movement and has several shooting/scoring options. However, he seems to have changed direction to the usual type of team: athletic wing, powerforward scorer, defensive centre, etc. Does anyone else agree with this broad long-term view? Some guys hate the euro-type ball, but I would still like to see it tried. But the group we got now can’t do it. Essentially every player would need to be able to pass, shoot, and rebound. But instead we have guys that can’t do any of that!
Boston’s revenues rose 27% last season, their operating income rose 11% and the value of their franchise rose 14%. Their income was the highest it had been in 5 years, that was their run to the conference finals I think. The profits from winning a Championship aren’t seen only in one 12 month period either. They’ll be receiving benefits for years to come.
Numbers are from Forbes. Published yesterday. Just go to Forbes, search NBA and you can check out any team you want.
If you go back to the KG trade and read the interviews given by Boston’s ownership at the time, you’ll see Wyc Grousbeck made the move with the expectation of increasing their profits (he specifically mentioned merchandising as an area that would rise significantly) as well as increasing the caliber of their team.
—————————————————
That FireJayTriano site has an excellent graphic on it’s frontpage. A sniper type target on Triano’s head with the areas around him shaded over. Very funny.
Edit: Sorry I didn’t see a new article was posted on the money angle.
Income and profits are not the same thing. Value is another thing as well.
True, the actual profits will be reaped in years to come and if I remember correctly, last year, I read in a Boston newspaper article that they would have to make the Finals in order for profits to be even possible. Count in the fact that some of the income is shared with the rest of the NBA, profits were doubtful. I remember reading later on that they barely broke even.
The other thing the you are not mentioning is how the Banner17 group’s main goal was to win the chip, then profits. Unlike the agenda of MLSE.
Yes, I couldn’t find nets profits. Operating income doesn’t include interest, tax or depreciation.
The 14% increase in the value of the Celtics was the largest in the NBA over the past 12 months.
Teams never discuss their real numbers anyway, Dave. Those numbers are hard/impossible to find.
The main point here is that people are saying that it doesn’t make sense MLSE would not break bank, since winning means more money. RapsFans showed us this is not the case at all.
And the point about Wyc and Steph is that their main goal is to win a championship, realizing (more then likely and like they said) the rest will take care of itself.
MLSE.. doesn’t see a reason to take chances in breaking bank and trying to win the Chip, because a) there is no guarantee they will win it and b)they are making “sure” money this way (without raising expenses) so why bother?
Like I posted in 80..it’s all about commitment and goals.
The numbers Raps Fan showed do not prove that. They do not tell how much money the Raptors could make if they won a title, or the long term consequences from continuing their present rate of performance. They simply say how much money the Raptors make in their present situation and that’s a huge amount of money.
The Celtics priorities are to win and to make money. Not one or the other. If that were the case they wouldn’t have allowed James Posey to leave because of financial reasons, a player that Ainge wanted to keep and tried to keep but he couldn’t match the money. It’s not one or the other, it’s both. Like it’s both for San Antonio, Detroit, LA Lakers, Houston Rockets, Miami Heat, and the Chicago Bulls who have won every championship since in the last 20 years.
This is a very long but interesting reading.
Everything you wanted to know about Ettore Messina but did not know who to ask.
October 23, 2008
Euroleague Basketball: Ettore Messina Blog Excerpts
Ettore Messina blog excerpts
The ground-breaking Ettore Messina On-Line Clinic, which concludes this week with a hands-on seminar in Barcelona, has given basketball coaches around the world direct access to a giant in their profession. As a team organizer, tactician and motivator, the Euroleague champion head coach from CSKA Moscow is recognized as a leader in his field. It goes without saying, too, that Messina is in a class with few peers when it comes to communicating ideas, arguments and insights about basketball, not only to his players and staff, but to media and fans as well. To further expose some of the essence of his philosophies, Euroleague.net is re-printing excerpts of the blog that Coach Messina has maintainedon the Russian website http://www.sports.ru over the last two seasons. Enjoy….
Rules and roles
“In basketball the same rule applies differently depending on the situation on the court. Let’s say, we have a rule to find an open man to shoot. If I play basketball, to be open I need the defender to be at least 2 meters away from me, because I’m slow and need some space and time. Suppose great players that everybody knows, Kirilenko and Ginobili, are also in my team. They are incredible athletes with great vertical jump. Even if they are guarded, they can either go by an opponent or jump higher so they are as free as I am with 2 meters of distance. According to the rule you might say: Ettore is open, but Kirilenko and Ginobili are defended, so they should pass the ball. However with the great quickness they have, if they make a step or jump they will be as free as I am. And in this case you want them to shoot, not me, because they are much better shooters than me. So, the rule might say the open man takes a shot, but we all must understand what means for each of us to be open in accordance with our different abilities. It cannot be the same for everybody.
“If I want to do with my limited abilities what Kirilenko or Ginobili can do, I’ll simply turn the ball over. For them, dribbling against a quick defender who is pressing them probably means to get advantage and do good things for the team. It might look the same only on PlayStation — offensive player trying to go by his man, — not in real life. If one player has more talent than the other, there will be two completely different situations in reality. Let’s not forget: we don’t coach PlayStation, we coach human beings.
“If you as a coach apply a rule the same way to everyone, you forget the fact you have different talents among your players and you fail to use it. If the players want the rule applied strictly without accepting that they have different talents, abilities and level of responsibility, you cannot have a team. You have a group of robots.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Ready to shoot
“If you are a youngster playing in a top team, you’ll always have your chance because the attention of defense will be focused on key players of your team. So you can contribute if you try to play defense, rebound and shoot when you’re open. There will be plenty of moments when your defender will leave you open while helping his teammates. In such moments you need to be extremely determined to shoot. You shouldn’t waste your time on thinking when you are open. It will only cause mistakes. You also need to be a decent outside shooter, because what defense will give first and foremost is a jump-shot. You will rarely have an opportunity to penetrate.
“Unfortunately, most young players don’t understand the importance of developing a reliable jump-shooting ability. They rely more on their dribble penetration or some strange moves. It’s funny that most young American players who come to Europe experience exactly the same problem. They think that with their jumping ability, their ability to penetrate with the ball, they can resolve a lot of offensive situations. They don’t understand that at our level the defense will first give them a jump-shot. Only then, if you prove being a decent shooter, they will be aggressive and this will open to you some space for dribble penetration.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Making players better
“In my opinion, you’re a good coach if you can improve your players. To improve a player you both need to understand and acknowledge his weaknesses and decide how to overcome them. This is a great motivation for me as a coach. Especially with young players, but also with experienced ones. Developing strengths and eliminating weaknesses are two sides of the medal. If you fix the weakness, you add up to your strengths. Suppose, I cannot shoot well. I keep on working on my shooting fundamentals. My shooting percentage goes up. Immediately, I get more versatility and technical strengths with the other elements in my arsenal as well.
“Many times I heard an opinion that if you’re good with, let’s say, your right hand, you should focus on developing it even more. It’s a wrong concept. Let me explain why. If you develop your left hand a little bit, it gives you more versatility. In basketball, versatility is the first thing to surprise the opponent with. If you’re limited to only a few things you can do well, you’re in big trouble.Getting versatile has its chain effect. I still can use my right hand, but I can also use my left hand now. If I face an opponent, I can go right as well as left. I can surprise him. I have more freedom in choosing my next action.If all you can do is go right, you’ll depend on your opponent. Once he blocks your movement to the right, you have to pass. This limits your freedom, your value for the team.
“The more fundamentals you have, the more confident and unpredictable you are on the court. You can do everything — go right, left, stop, shoot or pass. The eventual goal is to become a complete player.
“Many years ago, in 80s and early 90s, the NBA cultivated the idea of specialization. There was a theory that all players (except superstars) should become specialists in one field — either shooting, rebounding, defending or passing. That theory represented a big problem. If you have too many specialists, you become predictable. The higher number of complete players you have, the better the game is. That’s why I have always liked to have three guards on the court. In Virtus and CSKA we usually played with 3 guards. With 3 guards you always have at least 3 players who can shoot, dribble, pass and play defense.
“One more thing is worth pointing out. I think the more talented the player is, the more he should work on his fundamentals to become a complete player.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
The night before
“I don’t think that it’s a good thing before the big games to think only about them. There was a great coach Petar Skansi who coached Lele Molin in Treviso when they won the national championship of Italy. He always went to dinner the night before the game. When Lele asked him “Why?” he replied: “Because we haven’t lost yet. If tomorrow we lose, at least I had a good dinner the night before. If we win, I’ll have the reason to party for the second time.
“This is an incredibly smart approach and a good way to relax. This story changed my attitude. Personally, I don’t like to go out after the game. I’m tired no matter whether it was a Russian league or Euroleague game. If I don’t have people who are visiting me or special guests of the club, I’d like to go home or maybe have a very quick pizza with my wife and my son. I’m curious to watch the game on DVD. So if I want to relax a little bit, I follow Petar Skansi’s theory and go out with my wife and my son the night before the game.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Read and react
“The system that I had in Virtus, Benetton, the national team of Italy and now I have in CSKA is based on what the Americans call ‘reading the situation and reacting’. If you adopt this kind of system, you immediately admit that you need players with two qualities: a) the intelligence to understand what is going on on the court and b) the ability to do it quickly. You also need players who are not afraid of taking responsibility and making decisions on the court.
“The ability to read (understand) the situation is not strictly related to player’s talent. Once you read the situation, then you need the talent. If you are a talented player and you can dribble, shoot or pass, this gives you more options to do something in reaction to what you see on the court.
“If you are an intelligent player, but not so talented, you should know your limitations and try to use your talent just for what you have. For example, if you are a good shooter, but not a great one-on-one player, after reading the situation, you limit yourself to take a good shot if you have time. But if the defense is running towards you, you pass the ball. You don’t force yourself to penetrate. Knowing your limitations, playing through them and not putting yourself into situations you cannot solve are the marks of the highest basketball IQ level.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Expectations
“The second thing that changes completely after winning the title is the expectations. If you’re expected to do well in something, whether it’s school, job or sports, it becomes more difficult. Everybody understands this, but really few people are capable to perform under the pressure of expectations. And it has nothing to do with your abilities. No matter how good you are in doing your job. You might be an average player, but do miracles under pressure. Or vice versa, you might be a perfect player, but be a complete failure when it comes to play under pressure of expectations.
“There are different kinds of pressure and the pressure of the expectations is the worst. If everybody — your wife or girlfriend, your children, your colleagues — thinks that you will do it well, this might destroy you mentally. You start thinking: “what shall I do if I deceive all these people?” Moreover, like a famous volleyball coach Julio Velasco was saying, you might start playing to defend the previous titles, which is a completely wrong approach. According to this approach, what you do now will justify the award you’ve already received. If you defend something instead of going on and getting something new, it might kill your performance.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Defense as offense
Good defense starts with good offense. There are three very important things about good offense. First, you can get a balanced shot. A shot by an open man usually means that the defending team had to work a lot before that shot. This makes it difficult for the opponent to run a fast break, which is much easier when you lose the ball or attempt a bad shot. As you see, good offense is about preventing transition from the opponent.
“Second, if you have good offense, you can draw fouls. Getting one of the best opponent players sidelined with two, three or four fouls is the best defense.
“Third, good offense implies having good balance on the floor. Once you have balance on the offensive end of the court, it’s easier for you to transform it into a good balance on the defensive end of the court and thus prevent transition. In these days the court is more or less the same size it used to be ten years ago, but players are much bigger, faster and more physically fit. They can cover the court very quickly. This is why you can usually have a fast break only after a turnover or a bad shot, because in these two cases the team is not balanced and cannot cover the court quickly.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Personal responsibility
“One day, Antoine Rigaudeau, one of the greatest point guards in European basketball in last 25 years, told me: ‘When I go into a game, I know that I have to win my match-up against my opponent, like in tennis. If I do this, my team has a better chance to win. If I lose my match-up, my team will probably lose, especially because I play point guard, which is a key position.’
“That was an incredible lesson. It taught me a lot about the team sports of high level. Personally, I never played at a high level, so I don’t know what’s going on in the mind of a great player. Antoine is an ultimate team player, and still, he wasn’t saying ‘team’ or ‘we.’ He was taking his responsibility. He showed me that personal responsibility is extremely important. I learnt to help my players to understand how to win their match-ups. If there are five match-ups and we win three of them, we’re likely to win the game. If we win four, we will win the game for sure.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Repeat
“It would be an incredible accomplishment to win two Euroleagues in a row. Only Maccabi did it during the last 15 years. We had a strong desire to win (in 2006). That would be something special. It was painful to lose. We could find a lot of things we could have done better, but many of those things got us to the final. Winning two Euroleague titles in a row is not a dream. It’s rather a goal for the years to come. And my true dream is to coach a team in the Olympic games, walk with my team in the opening ceremony. One of my favorite movies is Chariots of Fire, where British running team prepares for the Olympic games of Paris.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Simplicity
“Offensively, our game is much simpler that many people think. On offense, we try to take advantage of our opponent, to get open for 1 second to shoot or pass. It makes opponent’s defense work to stop me, and it makes them leave somebody else open. Now, if I can find another open man with a pass, we keep the advantage and, sooner or later in 24 seconds, we’ll have a completely free shot.
“You can keep the advantage only with a pass. Many players can create the advantage, thanks to their jump, quickness or receiving a screen. The defense reacts to take away this advantage. This is why players like Papaloukas or Vanterpool are so good. They make an extra pass to keep the advantage. This is why CSKA, Panathinaikos, Maccabi are great teams. Most of the players in these teams can make an extra pass. The pass that gives you the opportunity to keep the advantage is the key to the offensive game.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Methods
“When you teach young players, you need to develop your own teaching method at first. I think it’s the most underestimated part of coaching job. No matter how thorough your knowledge of basketball is, you should have a teaching method. Nowadays, with all the clinics, videos and even the possibility to attend practices, knowledge has enormously increased as compared to what it used to be 20-25 years ago.
“The biggest part of developing a method is to select what to teach young players from a long list of different things. Usually, coach cannot communicate all his knowledge to a player, as it will create confusion. Moreover, the things you’re trying to teach should be consistent with one another and should be put into a logical succession. Coach must take into consideration the level of the player as well. You cannot create expectations of huge improvements over a short period of time, as it might destroy player’s mentality.
“There is no secret at all. Help young players to advance step by step. Make sure every step is neither too difficult (it will cause frustration), nor too easy (it will be a waste of time). Offer slightly harder challenges every time to help your players to build confidence and gain knowledge.This is the essence of any teaching method. If you don’t have such a method, having the biggest knowledge in the world won’t help. With no teaching method, you’ll remain the only one who knows it.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Music class
“Basketball is like music. Young players who just started practicing basketball develop an idea, though random, of what the game is. They start with a global idea that basketball, normally, is played in a harmonic way. Then you give them drills or exercises to master specific aspects of the game. And then you put everything together again. Basketball is unlike mathematics. In mathematics, you start with elementary arithmetic operation and, at that point, have no idea what further mathematics is. In music, in sports we have this idea where we would end up. It means coach must always keep in mind this whole-part-whole teaching method.
“You cannot develop good players only with the part method. Your players may be great in doing exercises and still wouldn’t play basketball. Neither you can develop players only with the whole method — always going 5 on 5. Your players just won’t have sound fundamentals as they should. You should develop your own method where you combine both whole and part methods according to your understanding. It’s the key to be a teacher.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Mistakes
“All mistakes in basketball can be divided into two types – technical mistakes and mental mistakes. Technical mistakes are easy to recognize. Mental mistakes are mainly caused by the lack of attention or understanding what’s going on the floor. Unfortunately, I have a very low level of tolerance for mental mistakes, and sometimes I realize I’m putting too much pressure on a player. Believe it or not, I’m still trying to get better in this part of my job. Anyway, it’s important to explain to players the difference in the way you treat both types of mistakes.
“At the same time I think the player’s personality plays a great role in the process. If you are a player and you want to improve significantly, you should put pressure on yourself to work on eliminating mental mistakes. The difference between an average player and a great player is that a great player has a very clear idea of what a mental mistake is. He works to cut down the number of mental mistakes.
“Try to understand the mistakes you make and work hard to correct them. This is the only way to advance to the next level. Start by defining your mistakes. Great players immediately recognize their mistakes and either try to avoid them or correct them quickly.”
Read more on http://www.sports.ru
Tailor-made
“I adjust our system, our strategy, our tactical organization to the individual abilities of the players that we have. In this theory coach is similar to a tailor who makes a suit for a customer. Even if you use some general frame to make suits, you have to adjust it to the customer’s body. Ready-to-wear suits always need to be adjusted to the individuals that will be wearing it.
“The same rule applies to the strategy we implement every year. First, it needs to address individual abilities of the personnel. Second, there should be mutual cooperation between coaches and players. Coaches have to come up with a tactical organization that will allow the players to use their individual abilities. Players have to make an effort to understand coach’s philosophy.
“Generally, I might have some defensive and offensive objectives, but it will depend on players’ individual abilities what kind of system we’ll choose, and how we get to the point this time.”
This is a very long but interesting reading.
Everything you wanted to know about Ettore Messina but did not know who to ask.
http://mensbasketballhoopscoop.blogspot.com/2008/10/euroleague-basketball-ettore-messina.html
Dave, I don’t think you get what I am saying here. MLSE sees no reason to go above and beyond what it’s doing because the teams that have won have not increased their margins that to them justify the risk of spending more more money. Say the do, and suffer injuries, exit the 1st round. This will more then likely result in a loss. Say the make the Finals and lose, is that money well spent, according to them? Probably not. Peddie said himself they only make move that “make sense” and guarantee results.
I think the last 15 years of this franchise being around proves that continuing with this type or performance is profitable and there is no reason to go above and beyond.
“Everything you wanted to know about Ettore Messina but did not know who to ask.” PART 2
http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.sports.ru/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.sports.ru%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_hr%257Clang_en%257Clang_hu%257Clang_sr%26sa%3DG
Fluxland,
Re: Comment #3
“Out of space” = “Outer space”
I think that’s what you mean, right?
Rishi,
yes indeed, Sir. That’s what I meant. Thanks! : ) LOL
Just some thoughts about the MLSE’s goals regarding winning versus making money (or winning and making money).
It’s not the same sport, but Baseball Prospectus did a study using regression analysis which indicated that the revenue gains from a playoff berth/win were felt for multiple years. If that’s the case for basketball, than it would pay to have a good team.
I do think that the fact that MLSE was willing to eat Sam’s salary does imply that they will sacrifice some money to be (potentially) more competitive.
Also, if someone could englighten me, were the Rap’s still doing decent attendance when they were crappy? I mean, I think Dave’s point (if understood correctly) is valid in that the MLSE would likely have to consider how attendance (not to mention T.V. revenues and merchandising) would fall if the team continued to underperform. All in all, I believe there are incentives, though maybe less so in the current economy (imagine how much the teacher’s pension fund must be getting killed now), to improve the team.
Remember, this team is not the Leafs and it is conceivable that the current great fanbase could be reduced signifcantly.
Rishi, you can look up attendance records when the team was not playing well – they did not dip significantly at all.
Tj ford says: “Calderons friendship with Chris Bosh isn’t the same as mine. Calderon’s t.o ratio is amazing,its very good.. but why is it so good? Not like we see him making passes and plays like how I do? Or other Point Gaurds like, Farmar/Fisher, cp3, nash, kidd etc..
As a point gaurd you need to run that break.. if you see Graham open cutting to the lane WIDE OPEN! and you look at him and not pass.. he does girly scream that we clearly heard during the NUGGETS game.
And when Moon does a hand movement signalling for a cut to the rim for a jam and you JOSE.. IGNORE IT & See Moon Jump it off like a bellarina.. then definitly your not taking a risk.. and protecting a Freakin possession.. THEN you choose to walk over to bosh and pass him the ball.. if he hits.. its an assist for you Jose..YAY! We know he hits like 7 plus of those jumpers per game.. no wonder u get 7 plus assists just like that and so little TURNOVERS !!
Thats not how it should be done Toronto ! When I went down with that Injury, Kapono’s 3pt attempts went down, Moon’s offensive numbers dropped… arent you guys PLEADING these two today to hurry up and go back to last year mode? and turn it on? THIS IS WHY THERE NOT.. JOSE can’t play THERE style of Basket-ball. SIMPLE.. face it, not HATING.. Jose is amazing.. and GREAT.. BUT hes not FOR THIS RAPTORS team.
Anyways I have another playoffs to attend this year,
i will now have a playoff appearence every year of my career.. OH AND.. RASHO wants me to deliver the message.. “I SECOND THAT”.
Toodles T.O
SMITCH was a good coach, WHEN i was there haha,
THE CURSE OF T.J has begun LOL gooooodluck folks
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