If the upcoming Laker game is ranked 10 on the degree of difficulty scale and say Charlotte was something like 4, then the Hawks should be around a 6 or a 6.5. Plus they’ve already kicked our ass once and that was with Jermaine O’Neal in the lineup, so needless to say we have to play at a much higher level than Wednesday night for a shot at a win before heading out West for potentially more ass-kicking. JRich missed Wednesday’s game and we catch another break as Josh Smith is ruled out of Friday’s matchup which should make life easier for Bosh who won’t have to contend with the long reach and athleticism of the Hawks PF. We’re going to need O’Neal to be 100% out West which means he hasn’t practiced this week and is questionable for the game. He’s saving that positive energy for Andrew Bynum.
Chris Bosh is reflecting on what happened in Atlanta, Mike Bibby lit us up for a string of first half threes which ballooned the lead to unmanageable levels:
“I think our rotations were off just a little bit, we could have done a better job. Mike Bibby really got them going and that’s when they started increasing the lead. “If we go help (on) Joe, we have to be on that defensive rope and start pre-rotating. Mike Bibby can get it going, we all know that, and he showed us. If we do over-help on Joe, we still have to be in the correct rotations.”
It’s very basic stuff. Don’t leave a shooter when doubling someone. It’s disappointing that we still haven’t mastered this concept, its not like this is a tumultuous organization where the coach changes ever year and turnover is high. Parker, Bosh, Calderon, Graham and Bargnani have been here for at least two years and Moon, Kapono and Humphries have had more than a year under their belt and we still need to be reminded of who not to leave open when doubling. The Raptors have never been able to form an identity under Mitchell, save for that one year when we won the division we were great at moving the ball about on the perimeter after doubles and hit our threes with accuracy. Come to think of it the only key component missing from that squad and our current lineup is……..take a guess……..Garbo. I could never quantify Garbajosa’s value to the team because he was one of those guys the stats didn’t do justice to but even then I usually scaled down his impact (maybe incorrectly).
You sometimes lose objectivity when you’re in a close relationship with someone, it’s like that Family Guy where Lois’s brother is the “Fat Guy Killer” and she’s in complete denial about it. Her brother’s coming home covered with dirt and a shovel in his hand while the news is running a picture of him and there are dead fat guys in his room, but Lois still refuses to see it. Now replace Lois with Doug Smith and Lois’s brother with Sam Mitchell and the fat people being killed with the Raptors and the picture is complete. Reason I bring this is up is the weak defense of Sam Mitchell’s coaching by Doug Smith as critiqued here. The article’s refusing to give Smith’s commercial of Mitchell any merit and rightfully so, the idea that Sam Mitchell is the reason Chris Bosh or Jose Calderon are the players they are today is blasphemous. Here’s a quick summary of Doug Smith’s argument as illustrated by the author:
Smith’s argument:
(1) Sam Mitchell is the coach of the Toronto Raptors.
(2) Andrea Bargnani, Chris Bosh, and Jose Calderon play for the Raptors.
(3) All three players have improved from when they first became Raptors.
(4) Mitchell has remained the head coach through their improvement.
(5) Mitchell is responsible for their improvement.
Totally agree, to say Mitchell’s great at developing young talent is to say that my lousy boss at work is responsible for me being a good worker. I’m a good worker because I put in effort and happened to learn a few skills in uni. I’d give Mitchell a lot more credit if he managed to develop somebody on the threshold of the NBA into a really good player, somebody like Jamario Moon or Joey Graham, players that don’t have talent oozing out of them but might have something to give if prodded correctly. So yeah, the argument by Smith holds zero merit.
Chris Bosh is aiming for the MVP award. Good, you should set your goals nice and high but whether he’s going to be in the running for the award will obviously depend on where we are in the standings and whether we’ve accumulated quality wins over the long arduous NBA season. So far we’re batting 1-6 in that department. He’s averaging 27.6 PPG which is good for 2nd in the league behind LBJ (27.9) and 5th in rebounding with 10.5 RPG. If the statistics remain the same the only reason why he won’t be a serious contender is because of the team’s record and performance.
I guess Sam Mitchell was asked whether Chris Bosh’s minutes were being stretched just a bit, he’s second in the league at 42.1 behind Stephen Jackson (42.9).
“We watch it. We try and make sure we rest him in between games. We’re not trying to set a record and have him play 48 minutes a game.”
What? A lamer answer I have not heard, you’re obviously NOT watching his minutes and playing him to his maximum capacity right now without thinking of player burnout. He’s only had two games where he’s played less than 40 minutes and he played 38 and 39 in those. You can’t blame Sam though, he’s trying to hang on to his job and what easier way to try to win than just stretch your players to the max. This is a great example of Sam’s “brute force” way of thinking about basketball, you know, “Go go go!!” as you always hear him yelling on the sidelines. Where that “Go” is I never quite figured out since we’re somewhere at the bottom of the league in fastbreak points. I wish there was a subtle touch about his coaching, his playbook and his persona. There’s only so much one can handle of the pragmatic Sam, at some point you have to look underneath his talk and I fear that there’s very little substance there.
What are the chances Joey drops 17 again tonight? He didn’t have back-to-back double digit point games all last year so you’d think we’re due for Bad Joey. We could use his defense tonight on Marvin Williams who had his way with us in transition last time around. I’m all for giving Moon’s playing time to Graham and having him on the court until he fouls out. If Graham knows he’s got some leeway on defense he’ll stay aggressive which means good things will happen.
We also see round 2 of Antony Parker versus Joe Johnson tonight (Round 1 went to JJ 17-4). Parker’s man-defense and offensive output has been up for question this year. He’s been given a free-pass by the media and is always allowed to get away with having a bad game because of his hustle and supposed great defense. Now hustle’s great and effort should always be applauded but the bottom line is starting SG production which just hasn’t been there. I understand he guards one of the oppositions’ better players on a nightly basis but that does not excuse scoring lines of 4 and 5 while shooting 39% for the season, at least not in a starting capacity. Parker was asked about his season so far and he believes that he hasn’t lost a step on defense:
“I’m playing heavy minutes. I’m healthy. I don’t think I’m losing a step or quickness or anything like that.”
I just don’t agree with him not losing a step. I think his offensive game and defensive agility have considerably declined over the past two years and he’s gone from an acceptable starting SG to a liability who is often targeted in the boxscore as a reason for the L.
Jose Calderon’s made 40 straight FTs to start the season. The record is 94.
Join us tonight at Philthy McNasty’s. Let’s go you Raps!
69 Raps
That Robert Seagal piece is an interesting read. Are we all lusting after Granger because we messed up the draft pick, or because we messed up Graham ourselves? Would Granger even be the same player here if we had drafted him instead of Indiana? Would Joey Graham be a rising star on a weak Pacers squad? I think Seagal may agree with that assessment. We would be wondering whether it would be good Granger or roboG from game to game – with Sam’s iron fist wrapped around the leash.
As a person who didn’t really pay attention to the responsibilities of the head coach vis a vis developing young talent, the article is something of a shock to me. Not only are we trading away assets at a breakneck pace, we are stunting the development of our own talent? How many different things can be wrong with this organization?
That Seagal piece is as messed up as Smith’s. At the end of last season, Colangelo, who as we all know is trying to make this team worse, hired Gord Herbert to be the Raptors developmental assistant. Herbert worked with Bargnani for a good deal of the summer. He’s also working with Roko and was trying to work with Jawai before Colangelo made his heart too big. So someone is finally trying to carry through on a long-term plan to improve the team’s younger players. That plan, even in its early stages appears to have produced some positive results, although let’s not start sucking each other’s dicks over it. If it gets Roko a jump shot, something that can be taught, it will produce more positive results. I am not sure how Colangelo plans on screwing this up but he has time.
And AltRaps, you’re still a dick but I’ve got to admit the site you help with is still pretty good. Would it be possible, though, to have a feature that edits out Khandor’s posts for those who choose not to read them? My scroll through finger is getting tired.
Would the real Sam Mitchell please stand up?
IMO,
Anthony Parker has never been a Quality Starter, at the Wing position for a High End calibre team in the NBA.
Although, AP has been, and still can be, a Quality Back-up, at the Wing position for a High End calibre team in the NBA.
AP has NOT lost a step in quickness over the last 12 months.
Initial appearances can easily be deceiving in the NBA.
================================
Every good player’s natural tendency is to provide help for his teammate from the strong side of the floor when that teammate has been beaten off the bounce into the heart of the defense. It’s a constant struggle to remind oneself NOT to provide that help, even if it contravenes a specific game-plan which says something like, “Do Not Help Off Ray Allen no matter what.” Those NBA Observers who do not realize the tendencies of good player’s everywhere to react this way instinctively haven’t yet had the opportunity to work with good players in a coaching situation and therefore do not fully understand the difficulty involved in getting good players to consistently react counter-intuitively when this type of situation occurs in a NBA game.
That said … comparatively speaking, it is still easier to get a good player to be able to remind himself of this type of specific instruction in the heat of battle when the designated shooter is an opponent like Ray Allen, than it is when the opposition player in question is someone like Marvin Williams, for example.
One of the things which set NBA players apart, however, is the FACT that … if you leave to help off a mediocre shooter like Marvin, and the rest of your team’s rotation is a little too slow, perhaps, because the other players on the court with you at that time are, generally speaking, NOT AS ATHLETIC as their counterparts on the other team, then Marvin … even though he is only a mediocre shooter, compared to, say, Jesus Shuttlesworth … is still plenty good enough to knock it down, on a fairly regular basis, whereas in non-NBA leagues around the world the Marvin Williams’ who toil there are not, at least not from NBA 3PT-range.
================================
Good Joey was responsible for limiting Gerald Wallace to only 6 pts in the 2nd half of last game. Good Joey’s offensive productivity is irrelevant gravy. Good Joey can rebound, defend and run the floor [on O & D]. Good Joey deserves to play on a regular basis for this Raptors’ team which is quasi-starved for top notch NBA-calibre athletes.
================================
re: The Raptors have never been able to form an identity under Mitchell, save for that one year when we won the division we were great at moving the ball about on the perimeter after doubles and hit our threes with accuracy. – by Arsenalist
IMO, the Raptors have always been able to form an identity under the direction of Sam Mitchell and Bryan Colangelo. An identity which has been, “Offense first. Rebounding & Defense are an afterthought.” THAT IS THE RAPTORS’ IDENTITY, right there.
Problem is … it’s the wrong identity to have if what you want to be is a High End team in the NBA for an extended number of years.
If you want to accomplish THIS objective then what you need to do is draft, trade for, and sign players who are top notch NBA-calibre athletes, are tough-minded individuals, with solid skill sets, and then put them in an environment where the emphasis is on REBOUNDING, Defense & Highly Structured Team Offense.
What you will then get is a Team Identity [that encompasses Rebs, O & D] which mimics the type of Team Identity required to build an Elite Level organization in the NBA, like the Spurs, the Lakers, the Pistons and now, once again, after an extended hiatus, the Celtics each have.
It’s not rocket science … but, if you try to cut corners, in an effort to speed up the developmental process of THAT type of organization, it is simply Fool’s Gold, when it comes to ever winning a NBA championship.
——————
re: Would it be possible, though, to have a feature that edits out Khandor’s posts for those who choose not to read them? My scroll through finger is getting tired. – by Sam
——————
Maybe your scroll finger is just in need of more exercise. : )
khandor is just as valued a reader/contributer as anyone else here. people deserve to have an opportunity to express their opinions. in fact, i prefer the guys who come out of left field because they make you think and spark debate. how fucking boring would this, or any other site be, if everyone agreed about things?
Reader 7: anthony parker sucks
Reader 2: yea man he does suck
Reader 6: smitch needs to learn to coach
Reader 2: yea man he does suck
Reader 1: bargnani isn’t a good player
Reader 13: what!!?!?! are you crazy?
Reader 1: my bad, i meant he IS a good player
Reade 13: cool
Reade 2r: anthony parker sucks
there’s no need to attack anyone under the cover and anonymity of the internet, we’re all civilized here, hopefully.
I think the identity issue is due to Sam and BC having different philosophies. Brian dreams of the 7 seconds or less v2.0, Sam doesn’t.
No BC teams has had a positive rebounding differential in 8 season, take that how you will.
Sam and development. Again, I think people want him to be Greg or Phil or someone who has been coaching for 20 plus years, right away. God, give the man a break, he’s not useless. Maybe it’s the assistants he has, maybe he hasn’t organized a perfect system where he can teach young ones, work on the playbook etc as efficiently as possible. I’m sure Sloan on those guys have a well oiled machine where they just insert players and spit them out at the other end ready to go or not. Not to mention, BC is changing personnel faster then a ride at 6 flags.
And the defensive breakdowns, I don’t know; to me these guys don’t seem to play as a unit. No chemistry on D, everyone just “ok, my turn” when the ball swings to their guy. Like, post-action D rather then pre-action D, if that makes sense. When you see a team like Boston turn it on, it’s like this green blob, moving, working all at once, shutting down everyone and everything.
Whatever, what do I know. AS sucks, that’s what I know. : P
Sam, glad you back, man! But c’mon, really just because someone says thing that are completely not within your line of thinking… well, you know. Think of the kids, Sam, think of the kids! lol. Mark Jackson: You are better then that, Sam!!
Khandor,
Write all your shit on you’re own blog and then post a link instead of clogging things up here.
If people want to read your thoughts they can visit your site. Don’t hijack this one.
Your comment is longer than the article(as they usually are).
Get a job!
You know what’s scary.. our division record! 1-4? UGH!
Chris Bosh needs to stop making jokes .. MVP? C’mon man.. it’s been 14 games.. you’ve never played a full season. Stop being a clown.. save it for the videos.
Flux…ouch! That is rough.
Arse, the minutes IMHO is a problem but we knew this before the season. Remember “concentrated talent”, that’s what this mean, squeeze your starters to make up for not having depth. I don’t think he’ll keep up at this clip and Sam will cut his minutes if not on his own thinking then from direct orders from BC. BC’s half coaching this team anyway. In an interview linked from this blog Sam said that starting Bargnani was a decision BC and him came to together. WTF?? The way I read that is BC tells Sam what to do after waiting on him to figure it out for himself. He didn’t figure out starting Bargs and he’s not going to figure out that Bosh’s minutes are a problem until somebody tells him.
I think we’ll win tonight with or without JO because Bosh will have another 35+ point game.
Maybe AP’s off-season hand surgery has something to do with his shooting being off this year. Nobody has brought that subject up at all.
Raptors2009.. when the members of the media look at you funny… and you have to say “Does it look like I am joking?”, what does that tell you? And you know what the other thing is.. he self promotes himself too much. I don’t recall MVP winners coming out and saying “You know what? I need to be considered as an MVP!” Self-promoting wh**e. The other thing, with this he just confirms about what he worries about the most.. himself. Worry about the team, you clown! Stop worrying about raising your value on the market and worry about your team and that record. MVPs don not refuse to join the huddle, btw.
Agree with BC half coaching this team..very very true, IMO.
Arse,
I don’t get the Sam bashing? Are you just trying to get the masses riled up so they can chime in about how bad a coach Sam is? If players develop its because they are good players, and if they don’t, the coach sucks? I don’t get it. Calderon and Bargnani have improved under Sam and the coaching staff’s guidance. If you’re going to pass on the blame, why not offer some praise when it’s due?
Here’s what Dick is talking about.
http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080522.wsptparker/GSStory/GlobeSportsBasketball/home
It’s an excellent point and I’m no doctor but have broken my hand a couple times and I can tell you that once its healed you don’t feel a damn thing. I think if that’s what’s bothering him then the surgery was botched and he would’ve brought it up and it would’ve shown in the follow-ups. Again, I’m no doctor but I don’t think that has anything to do with it.
Raptors2009, I know the interview you’re talking about and he did mention that. I didn’t make much of it because it was an isolated comment. If I only had some proof that it was BC who asked Sam to start Bargnani against Orlando….
i think the point arsenalist was trying to prove was that those players had such high potential before entering the raptors. With respect to bargnani and bosh, they were both top-four picks and are expected to be great players. Granted, not all top-four pick players are great, but the percentages dictate that the majority will turn out good. Joey Graham and Jamario Moon have shown flashes of talent and could be key cogs of this team. Sam mitchell has not been able to consistently exploit their talent for the team’s benefit. That, I believe, is the difference between a coach like sam mitchell and one like gregg popavich from a player development perspective. If you look at the spurs roster, hill, their late first-round pick from this year, is tearing it up.
Sam should earn some credit for the development of Calderon. He was unknown from Europe and has been developed very well.
Flux,
yesterday was the first time I felt that CB was self promoting through the media… I don’t mind when he does it on his own (youtube/website)… you may be on to something, but hopefully he comes to his senses and realizes promoting yourself usually results in backlash… I’ve always found him to be humble and unassuming… maybe the gold is going to his head… I really hope not…
I ain’t better than that and last I checked my e-mail address is a required field when posting. I might have anonymity vis a vis Khandor but I’m not sure how much I have with respect to AltDick (that’s my HO). Besides, an editorial policy that decries a little trash talk while having no problem with guys expressing glee at a player going down with injury strikes me as a strange set of priorities. I thought you guys were all about toughness and telling it like it “is”. But it ain’t my site and I am forced to admit the quality of the articles, particularly Arse’s, and discussion is pretty good.
And I didn’t read the post, but I think the smiley face at the end of one of Khandor’s post means I have failed to influence his posting habits. I wonder if a threat of a nuclear strike could do that. (And I have no nuclear capability)
Anyway, I’ll step down from the soapbox and let others fill the digital void. Going to the Hawks game tonight and hope its a good one. That Atlanta team is intriguing – a poor man’s TrailBlazers in a lot of ways. Might not even be so poor.
pakmacman, I think you’ll find that I’ve been fair to Mitchell and given him credit whenever he does something good. I don’t think you read the blog when it was over on arsenalist.com. It’s only when he does one of the following three things that he feels the ire from this corner:
1) Stupid tactical stuff like bad subs, gaffes (e.g: starting Bargs in playoffs, Jose on D with 2 secs left against NJ etc)
2) Players not playing hard (if that lazy dog Moon continually stays on the perimeter and refuses to slash, its Moon’s fault to a degree. But if this goes on for the entire season, it’s Sam’s fault for sticking with him).
3) Horrible Offense (Hump and TJ playing hot potato etc.)
As for your claim that Calderon and Bargnani have improved because of the coaching staff, I have to disagree. Bargnani had a miserable year last year because he was not prepared for his sophomore season and nobody helped him make the adjustments to the scouting reports getting out. IMHO , that was the #1 reason why he struggled last season. How many times last year did you see Mitchell yank him because he had two fouls? How is that “player development”? This summer BC put him under a summer regiment and we’re seeing the results now.
As for Jose Calderon, I’ll give Mitchell credit for not having an offensive system in place which has the effect of giving your PGs freedom to do whatever they want. So yeah, I guess Jose (and TJ) took good advantage of that.
Let him make something out of Moon and Graham and I’ll keep praising him till I die. “Developing” players with talent is easy, try developing players with marginal talent.
Packmacman, it’s just clear that the guy has his own agenda. So, when people think he’s going nowhere in 2010..I dunno, I don’t see it that way. And all the crap LBJ takes for marketing himself, CB4 is in the same boat. The difference is, LBJ is a franchise player, CB4 is not. Make no mistake about it, his head has gotten huge, since the Olympics. Look at the way he talks to the refs now. “Yo man! You know who I am?” That boy needs to cut his hair and let the air back into his brain.
Sam, I’m just saying.. you seem bright enough to not let someone else’ opinion bother you THAT much. Heck, there’s a few guys on here that drive me insane, and I just ignore them. Focus on the good, my man.
Have fun at the game tonight. Paint RR on the side of your cheeks.. spread the word. These guys will love it and maybe buy a beer at Philthy’s one night. ; )
Arse,
I somehow stumbled onto this site after the loss to the Celtics in Boston… Negative commenter’s aside, I enjoy the blog…
I like Sam Mitchell… I don’t think he is the best coach we’ve had… but I don’t think he deserves ALL of the criticism he gets… I respect your view as I agree he has yet to get the best out of ‘marginal’ talents, and his x’s and o’s definitely leaves something to be desired. I don’t think he’ll get the chance for much longer, as I don’t see him lasting after this season, because I don’t think we can win a series against any of the 4 top teams in the east.
BTW, I was not claiming that SMitch and the boys ‘developed’ Bargnani and Calderon. I tend to put the onus on the players, more than the coach, for developing or failing to develop… I think it is the coaching staffs responsibility to help the young guys learn the game and about life in the NBA… Something I think Sam has proven he can do even when he was a veteran player.
flux – i think the bosh/MVP this is another area where how you feel about an issue going in impacts how a message is perceived. when i read the quote where bosh stated he wanted to be considered an MVP (or something along those lines), i thought the same as you: what a self-serving attention whore.
later on, i caught the interview on RapsTV, and i found it came across differently. i didn’t find that he was trying to say he was THE MVP, but that he needs to play like an MVP.
my interpretation (and again, this is only how i’m interpreting what bosh is saying), is that he’s recognized who he is in this league & on this team, and that for the team to have success, he’s going to have to play like an MVP; he’s thinking, and i agree, that if he takes on that kind of responsibility & has success, and that leads to team success, then MVP is a possibility…but that without team success, there’s no chance, just like there is little chance of the team having success unless he continues to perform at an MVP level.
Admit it. The Raptors need me. Check me out versus your 2’s & 3’s this season.
Parker: 10.6pts 3.0rbs 2.3assts
Kapono: 6.6pts 1.8rbs 1.6assts
Moon: 6.3pts 2.8rbs 1.5assts
Graham: 3.5pts 2.2rbs 0.2assts
Total: 27.0pts 9.8rbs 5.5assts
**It takes these guys 89.6 minutes to get these stats**
VC: 23.6pts, 4.4rbs 5.1assts
**It takes me 37.6 minutes to get these stats**
Considering I destroyed you last Friday I thought I would just rub it in a little.
HAHA
hey, who invited venereal cancer to the party?
My question is if BC can step in and stick Bargs to a strict workout schedule during the off season, why doesn’t he do that with all facets of the team? Maybe he is and we just don’t read about it, but since there’s dick all going on in the off season, I’m sure we would have.
I’m sure players want to have some time off and enjoy themselves, but this is their career we’re talking about. Borderline players like Joey, Moon, Hump etc. need all the help they can get and if the contracts indicate they’ll be around for at least another season, why didn’t BC put as much effort into developing them? I know Bargs is his golden boy, but the the team should be considered his golden children in it’s entirety.
Seriously, just hire a coach that’ll emphasize go to dribble / penetration moves for Moon and Joey. Post up and passing scenarios with Hump.
Not to mention Sam. Is pride a factor here? It’s clear that Sam’s not great with X’s and O’s or substitutions. Why hasn’t BC tried to develop Sam as a coach rather than let him do his thing then and then hate him for making the same mistakes over and over?
Obviously I’m over simplifying things, but if this is what we have, why not put every ounce of effort into internally improving our game? Are they not worth the effort?
Arsenalist, do you read Doug Smiths Blog? If not you should, instead of quoting his comments from the Bleacher Rat.
His blog on Nov 25th about Good Sam, Bad Sam is not unlike a lot of your criticism of Mitchell and his weaknesses, which the Rat quoted only a portion of.
Also on Nov 28th he talks about the 42 mins of Bosh.
By the way Bosh said that he wants to play every day like a MVP, and be in the consideration as one, while recognizing that his play has to lead the Raptors to play a lot better, and be winners.
If LBJ and DWade are franchise players, then Bosh definately is too.
Moon’s offseason regiment was a joke. I can tell you that much. At the end of last season everybody knew what he needed to do:
1. Work on jumper because team’s were sagging off of him
2. Get stronger because he was being pushed around by bigger 3’s (Bonzi, Pierce etc)
3. Improve ball handling and start developing a slashing game because we already have enough jump shooters.
4. Work on consistency, work-ethic.
Of the four he’s worked on #1 and that too barely since his overall FG% is lower than last year.
At least Joey Graham shows up in summer camp, give him credit for that. I don’t even know what his off-season regiment is but I don’t think its dictated/mandated by the Raptors otherwise we would’ve heard something by now.
I think Hump’s doing all right, he’s a hard-worker who has improved his jumper, his body and his rebounding technique each year. The effort is always there, I don’t understand why he doesn’t get more playing time because his PER48 in defensive stats is always tops on the team. I think “Hump Jordan” is greatly exaggerated and he’s much more disciplined than what people make him out to be, give him consistent burn and he’ll produce for you and if he doesn’t, at least the effort will be there. Plus, he strikes me as the kind of guy who once he gets some confidence wouldn’t mind laying some wood on people.
Free Hump!
I totally agree. FREE HUMP and JOEY.
Both those guys seem to be putting in the effort and they need to be rewarded. If Hump can learn to pass once or twice a game, I say let him do his thing cuz he surprisingly does more good than bad.
Even when Bad Joey comes out, he still does the right things by slashing and getting offensive putbacks and getting to the line. Things that Moon seem to be allergic to.
I’m sure Moon will be on a short leash tonight in favour of Graham.
Big time game tonight!!!
YoYo…!!!
~RAPTOR FAN FRIDAYS~
Raptors Republic @ Philthy McNasty’s
I want all y’all to come out with your friends tonight and join us in bringing the ACC upper-bowl crowd energy to the cozy confines of downtown Philthy McNasty’s! (BOH!) We’ll be runnnnnin’ tings in the “stadium”!!
(Game starts at 7PM)
Make sure to introduce yourselves – I won’t be hard to find! ;D
Friday nights are ours!!!
YEAH!!! FREE HUMP & ROBO-JOE!!
and, uh, what happens when they, you know, play like we’re used to?
Then nothing.
We go back to Moon jacking up 3’s and pretending to play D.
or JK.. playing like we’re used to.
If this is our team, and Sam is our man, then at least trying different things gives fans hope of improvement. Otherwise we might as well just give up on this season cuz we already know Sam’s ceiling with this talent pool.
Tinman…my thoughts exactly
Yertu, just tell me why he has to announce this to us? We know he’s our main, guy.. what is he telling us we already don’t know? C’mon man, dude is trying to “put everyone on notice”. Let your game and actions speak for themselves.. and don’t try to sell to a salesman, you know what I mean? Remember Kobe last year, or pretty much any player who was in the running.. none, and I mean none of them,cared about that…all they were saying all along was:”I could care less, I just want the team to do well.. make the Finals etc”. This team is not a contender and this guy is talking about MVP? This is realistic? Listen, just worry about the team AND MAKING YOUR TEAM MATES BETTER!!!!..I’m sure the awards will come in time.. if so deserved. All we ever talk about is how great he is and how much better he is getting. MVPs make their team better by making their team mates better.
Jhonn19, the Bosh franchise player/face of the franchise thing has been debated here a little while back. Most of us agreed he was not one, I think. Then the other day I came across this..tell me what you think Bosh is.
“There are Real Franchise players and there are players we tend to mistakenly call Real Franchise Players (RFP) that are more like Faces of the Franchise (FOF). A Real Franchise player should be defined only–and I mean only–as a guy that can carry a squad to a championship. Not just lead. Carry. Chris Webber (an FOF) forever altered the Kings franchise and gave it unthinkable relevancy during Sac’s new-millennium glory days. He was fully capable of leading that talented Kings squad to a championship. And he would have done just that, were it not for Shaq (an RFP). Duncan, on the other hand, carried an old Robinson and young Parkers and Ginoblis to championships. You see the difference? Very few players fit the RFP description. I’d say there are about five players with RFP capabilities, right now: Kobe, LeBron, DWade, Chris Paul and, perhaps, still Grandpa Duncan. FOFs are great players that make their teams viable, entertaining and successful, but need considerable help to get the ring (Melo, Deron Williams, Amare, Yao, Mac, Dirk, KG, Pierce, etc.). You can “build around” FOFs, construct “championship teams” on their foundations. RFPs are the franchise–all you need to do is provide some furnishings.”
IMO, Bosh is a great compliment to a RFP..and that makes him a FOF.
I love how Smith believes that when a player improve, Mitchell deserves some credit, but when they fail to develop or even regress, the onus was on that player the whole time. It takes a special kind of person to be that illogical while keeping a straight face.
One of the things I’ve never understood while Sam has been here, is the way we double-team players. Our guards have always doubled the post player way too hard, IMO. That was somewhat justifiable the past couple years when we had Bosh, Nesterovic, and crappy Bargnani playing post D. They sucked. But I see the exact same strategy this year, when we all know that our frontcourt can handle their own. I was actually seeing Jose and AP cheating off their man to double Charlotte’s forwards on Wednesday! The Bobcats have arguably the worst offensive frontcourt in the league and we still felt the need to overcompensate defensively.
so, bosh is an FOF (no argument)…where’s our RFP?
Alright, somebody fill me in on what FOF means because my first reaction was that it has something to do with hardcore bondage.
Chutney, when doubles seemingly happen on a random basis on random players it stinks of not having a strategy heading into games. I remember in the playoffs last year we doubled Dwight Howard 16 feet out!
I don’t actually mind the hard doubles when they’re necessary (not against Charlotte obviously), its the weak ones that I have a problem with. I hate the doubles where Parker or Jose are caught in two minds whether to double or not and they end up not sticking to their man AND not properly doubling leaving the guy to kick out for an open three. This happened with Ray Allen at least two or three times on Sunday and was a problem in the playoffs too.
The other problem I see with the doubles is that they all seem to come from the strong side which makes the pass out of the post easier. Notice how Boston always brought Pierce or T Allen from the weak side when doubling Bosh and got a couple steals that way. It’s harder for the ball0handler to see those coming and its tougher to react to them.
Doug Smith has a job because he’s in a market that puts NO premium whatsoever on NBA basketball.
He has no credibility and he’s wrong as often as Anthony Parker is outmatched….
In fact, he has he sort of credibility issues where you can almost bank on anything he predicts having pretty much the opposite outcome..he’s just that bad….how someone can be around THAT long and still be so unerringly OFF the mark is truly mysterious.
BTW, Bynum has a foot injury and may not play against Toronto….they still have ZERO, ZERO chance of winning, but it may save O’Neal some wear and tear…assuming the 44 million dollar cripple can play.
Every team has mastered the pass out of our doubles. It’s painful to see from CHA to BOS the exact same strong side double off their open shooter at the 3. Only diff is BOS makes them while CHA doesn’t.
We utilize the same strategy every game vs. every opponent. Regardless of how (in)effective it is.
I was at the CHA game, and watching people go nuts every time we scored in the 4th was retarded. Of course I support the team and am relieved when they manage to score. But c’mon!!! Cheering for a PnR that does nothing, Jose dribbling with 4 sec to go and either making a bail out shot, or passing it to Bosh for a bail out shot.
I get people are just there for entertainment and don’t really go deeper than that. But for the select few that really care about basketball.. it’s just insulting to watch.
Flux:
I think you are off-base in regards to Bosh. He is absolutely putting up MVP-like numbers. If Toronto finishes with 50 wins and he maintains his level of production, his name should be included in any MVP discussions. I know it may be a long shot, but 50 wins is not impossible if Jose, JO get healthy and either parker or graham step up (I also am aware that part of his incredible production lately is due to his heavey minutes).
I understand this is not likely to happen but I don’t mind that he challenges himself in this way. Like it or not, his performance this season and the Olympics establishes himself as a top 5-7 player in the L. There’s a reason, the media is salivating over a LBJ/Bosh super combo rather than Melo or Stoudemire (although I think Stat is just as good as Bosh).
Here’s my list of Legit Franchise players (now/future):
Lebron
Chris Paul
D Wade
Kobe
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Stoudemire
Tim Duncan
Derrick Rose
I’m sure I missed some but that’s good company.
It’s JO, yertu.. isn’t it obvious? : )
You know what I am waiting for? Chris Bosh referring to himself in the 3rd person. That will be fantastic.
stacks, it’s been 14 games, no? He puts up these numbers come March..or around time when MVP discussion begin and when we have a sense of where this team at, we have something to talk about.
It’s nice that he is setting goals, I just wish he wasn’t promoting it the way he is. I don’t care about CB4 and his personal accomplishments, this is not the CB4 Raptors, it’s the Toronto Raptors.
Btw, Melo is not a FA in 2010 and him and LBJ play the same position. That may make a difference. And it’s very doubtful STAT would leave PHX,(look at his team mates) whereas Bosh has legit reasons to leave. That’s why you don’t hear that, perhaps.
Rap starters tonight?: Bosh, Bargs, Jose, AP and …. Joey?? .. Humps?? .. Ukic?? .. Moom??
flux – agree re. bosh, if he’s still putting up these numbers in march, it (MVP talk) might have some substance. i simply like that he’s thinking of himself in those terms, and basically putting the onus of the team’s success on his shoulders. he’s quite aware that any MVP talk will be just that – talk – if the team isn’t successful. by which i – and i assume he – means a strong regular season for the team, with a top 3/4 finish in the east, and a dominant season from him…staying among the league leaders in key areas.
i guess the way i’m looking at it is that, theoretically, if he’s putting up these kind of numbers, and his teammates are playing up to their normal abilities, then the team should find success.
theoretically.
and i wouldn’t be so sure about stat wanting to stay in phx:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_stephen&page=Stoudemire-081128
sounds kinda like marion…
JO’s a game-time decision, right? if he goes, it’s back to him, bosh, bargs, AP & jose, w/ robo-joe getting moon’s minutes off the bench & hump likely playing more. if no JO, it’ll be the same starters as wed., except robo-joe will go in place of moon.
i wonder if we could see a little experimenting with moon at the 2?
i’m watching rapsTV, and they’re showing that promo from last year featuring moon. i threw up a little. it’s bad enough they’re still running promos that feature swirsk, couldn’t they stop running those until moon shows up for a whole game?
The MVP award is intrinsically tied to team success. You can’t win MVP unless your team wins. Bosh is no dummy. He knows this. When he says he wants to win MVP he is saying he wants to lead the team to success.
Flux: Bosh is the consummate team player. We’ve been watching him for 5 years now. He will make the necessary sacrifices to win. He has the best attitude one could possibly hope for in a superstar. When the Raps lose, he looks like he’s about to cry. He’s miserable. Irrespective of whether or not he got his numbers. I fucken love that.
I don’t get it. He states publicly he wants to be the best player in the league on a winning team, and you slag him for it?
If he even remotely suggested that winning the MVP is more important than winning a championship I would be the first to bust his nuts. But man, come on!
Yertu, at the end of the day.. what I am saying.. I don’t get why he is bringing it up. No reason other then self-promotion, in my mind, period. Guess what? Stats are kept track of, people pay attention. If he’s deserving of MVP talk, it will come on it’s own. Why is HE bringing it up? Leaders lead, they don’t yap.
I wouldn’t put too much weight on an article by Cheese Doodles and Amare will be singing a different tune by 2010. Either way, the point I was making is that Bosh leaving has more weight then STAT, simply based on team mates.
The most important/interesting quote from him is this one: “As a player, you should look at the teams you might want to play for. The city you may want to live in. The system you may want to play in. The economy. The cost of living. Everything. It’s about what’s best for you.” Somehow, I don’t think TO fits Bosh’s criteria.
Badass… does the fact he didn’t even mention team success first, especially the way this season is going, but mentions the MVP, not tell you something?
When a guy says “Every night I am trying to be an MVP..” NOT “I am trying to make sure my team wins, even if it means me putting up low numbers” What does that tell you?
“We need more wins…” not for the team to be successful, but for him to win the MVP.
Those tears are not for the Raps.. it’s how those losses reflect on him.
Think and read it how you want.. this teams chemistry is falling apart by the minute in my eyes. Heck, if one of his team mates or the entire team came out and said: “We are gonna make Chris the MVP this year” I would understand. It just reeeks of personal agenda to me.
Please tell me of the sacrifices Bosh has made for his team to win? His attitude in the Boston game sucked to say the least. You sure you don’t work for BC, Badass?
I’m going to agree with Fluxland ( BTW this site should have profiles/guestbook and a forum area like Facebook). There is something about Bosh that I take 1 look at and I go, something is missing with him. I just don’t see a “killer” in him. And all his points are jumpshots and a great midrange game, rarely does he attack the basket and give a hard foul to his adversary.
And don’t bash me this is my opinion but Bosh can easily score 35 points+ against the bottom feeders in the league, that’s when he thrives. And when he does, there best player is always injured too making his job a cake walk. I have yet see a game where he can put 40 up against Detroit, Utah, Lakers, Boston, Cleveland. He’ll score 40 against Phoenix but Shaq and Amare have to be injured if you get my drift.
The real test will be the west coast trip we’ll see how tough this guy is against these teams. I don’t give a shit if you can get 40 in Miami twice.
Joey, you took the words off my keyboard about the West Coast trip. He puts us crazy numbers vs elite teams, I’m in the MVP camp.
Word on the killer instinct as well, when confronted (say by KG) he shrinks. And guess what Badass, killers don’t cry. They get into their team mates faces and demand results, the throw shit around, they have team only meetings. If that’s what you love and want, start an emo band with Chris, that’s cool with me, I just don’t think it’s what winners are made of. In 5 years when the situation has demanded it, how many times has he stepped up?
i guess we see what we want.
Chris Bosh has scored 35+ points 13 times in the past three seasons.
Bosh has dropped 41 points on Amare Stoudemire, 41 points on LeBron’s Cavs, three times he’s scored 40-41 points on Dwight Howard’s Magic. Bosh has also scored 35 points on the New Orleans Hornets’ Tyson Chandler/David West (no Chris Paul).
That is 6 of the 13 times he has scored 35 points in the last three seasons, all against contenders.
Bosh has two other high scoring games against the Washington Wizards. One was against a short handed (no Arenas/Butler) Wizards lineup where Bosh scored 37 points. The Wizards were at full strength in the other game when Bosh again scored 37 points.
Can we stop saying he only has these type of nights against lowly teams?
The 5 other occasions were against Atlanta (last season when Atlanta made the playoffs), New Jersey + Charlotte (the recent games), New York (last season) and Portland (last season when Portland went 41-41, the overtime game at home).
That’s 6 of the 13 games (46%) against Contenders, 9 of the 13 games (70%) against playoff squads and one more against a .500 squad (77%) … and only 3 (23%) against lottery squads and two of those have come in the last couple of games.
Hmmm … 8 of those 13 games came in the 2008 calender year, other 5 in 2007. In 2005-06, the Mike James season, Bosh had one 35+ point game scoring 37 points on the Detroit Pistons who had both Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace in the team at the time.
Can we stop saying he only has these types of games against lowly squads?
good point. I think, like most elite players, he can have monster games agains anyone (other than Garnett, that is).
Dave, Dave, how dare you bring stats and facts into a discussion about perceptions and impressions? :) :)
(Thanks for supplying some much needed context, btw)
I don’t see Boston, Lakers, Detorit (ok 1 time out of how many games in 3 years), Houston, San Antonio, Dallas or Utah on there.. as in elite teams. Just because teams make it in the last 16, it doesn’t make them contenders.
So, no we really can’t stop saying that. Also 13 games out of 246 – 5% umm, no I don’t think we can.
CAV, HOR, WIZ, NJ, CHA, NY, POR, DET, how many of these are ELITE teams?
The funny thing about stats is that they can be manipulated to say what you want them to say. Stats lie, oh they so lie!
Also, 5 of those games resulted in losses, 38%, in case that matters.
Dave Read what I just said. The Cavs game last season Lebron didn’t play because of his hand injury. And the NO game Chris Paul didn’t play, The Washignton your right, No Caron Butler.
Now Tonight no Josh Smith to guard him so expect him to score 35 again. Charlotte yesterday no Jason Richardson.
See what I mean?
Utah and Lakers next week with No Boozer or Bynum playing if we still loose ……….
Flux, I’m not going to convince you am I?
How about a comparison? Let’s choose Allen Iverson.
Iverson ranks third All-Time in NBA History with a career average of 27.4ppg. Over the past two and a bit seasons he’s averaged around 26 points a game. He is one of the most explosive scorers in NBA History and played for a gun slinging fastbreak team.
Over the same period of time, Iverson has 17 games of 35+ points and has done so in 135 contests for the Nuggets. During that time, Bosh played 150 games (15 more) and had his 13 games of 35+ points.
The list of team’s Iverson abused – Toronto, Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Philadelphia, Minnesota, Miami, Lakers, Clippers, Houston (twice), Golden State (twice), Dallas, Cleveland, Chicago (twice). I count 6 contenders there, large number of playoff teams, and four lottery teams. So the same number of contenders, the split on the others changes from 7-3 to 10-4.
This is one of the most explosive scorers in NBA History, and a man who ranks third all time in points per game. He’s a lethal scorer. Bosh isn’t, and I think compares fairly well to him.
I think your expectations/demands are too high Fluxland.
Joey,
LeBron James did play in the game I described above (Nov 24 2007). He played 45 minutes and had a triple double and 37 points of his own.
I already pointed out that Chris Paul and Bulter/Arenas didn’t play in those two games.
AI? That’s a bad choice and you and I know both know that.
When Bosh CARRIES a team to the Finals, (a team of scrubs) the way AI did, then.. maybe. David Berri tells us what we need to know about AI, no? Should we start thinking the same about Bosh?
I don’t have any demands or expectation, because as I have stated earlier, whether Chris scores 50 every night for 3 seasons straight and this team exits in the first round, I could care less (about his numbers). Conversely, I could care less if he does the same and they win the chip. It’s a team game, I care about the team success.
Flux, if we were talking about both players in overall terms then it’s not an example I’d choose. But we were talking solely about those monster scoring nights and who they happen against and whether Bosh has those games against poor sides only or not ….
And in terms of prolific and explosive scoring Iverson is one of the best to ever set foot on an NBA court. Iverson’s scoring prowess makes him an unfair comparison to Bosh, a comparison that should dwarf Bosh’s accomplishments. The comparison was for context because I believe it shows Bosh has done very well in this regard.
If you pointed out those games then you just confirmed what I have just said. lol
I think Bosh is a great 2nd tier player who can be a perfect compliment to a superstar. Has the talent to score 25/10 a night but to completely shut down the opposite team in a playoff series? That’s a whole different ball game.
Simply in that comparison.. sure.
But they play different positions, and score in different ways. Does AI get as many from the stripe?
What it comes down to is what you consider ELITE (regardless of playoffs)teams, the middle, and lowly, I guess. I still contend, that against ELITE teams, Bosh shrinks or doesn’t have those “amazing” nights.
Again, I didn’t see Boston, Lakers, Utah, San Antonio, Dallas on there, teams that Joey and I mentioned. The Wizards and Hornets are your best arguments. And how many games total has he played against them in that span and performed that well.
I really don’t care, but if he’s gonna start talking MVP, the stats IMO do not justify it. Unless of course we want to talk about this season, thus far.
Oh and Dave, Jdbar and stacks are convinced, FWIW. : P
Flux,
I completely agree Bosh hasn’t been an MVP caliber player at this point. I regard him as an All-NBA level player.
I’m saying that the theory that Bosh shrinks against top teams is wrong.
I’m saying that the theory that Bosh only has those monster games against bad teams is wrong.
Dave, I know what you are saying. As you know, I happen to disagree. To what do we attribute his, say, 4th q performance vs. Boston, or his overall impact?
Flux
Dwyane Wade was held to 13 points, 3 rebounds and 4 assists per game in three meetings against Boston last year. Does that make him a player who shrinks against big teams?
How about Tim Duncan? He had 16 and 11 and the Celtics shut him down in both fourth quarters of close games.
Of course not. Bosh had a bad game, it wasn’t his first and it won’t be his last.
Bosh’s bad game is attributed to three things:
(1) He’s not a robot, he has bad games like all players do
(2) Boston are the best defensive team in the league and KG is the DpoY, and it’s a matchup that’s very difficult for him. Also consider that Boston shuts down more top players in this league than any other.
(3) Boston outclasses the Raptors. Give Bosh two Hall of Famers and a great supporting cast and see how long his struggles last.
DWade… different position.
I’ll agree that Boston is an “extreme” example. There are still lots of other teams where he just doesn’t have the monster games, like against the “lowly” teams, which in essence, is logical. The point is, without getting into the minute details, against elite teams in the league, superstars and MVPs take their games to another level and step up. It seems to me that has not been the case with him, and yes we can start attributing that to his team mates, but again, he shrinks when the competition at his position is better or at par, elite players do not.
We are not going to convince each other of the others view, we should just accept it.. kinda like me and Khandor do not agree on Jose.
Maybe Chris will go out and average 55 17 and 12 on this trip and erase my doubts.. let’s see what happens.
Yes, Flux, I think we’ve come to an impasse … hopefully Bosh will fix that.
Bunch of great plays from Joey Graham here in the fourth quarter.
I hope so too, I really do. For the sake of the team.
Wow, how close to a 5 second violation was that on that last inbounds to Kapono?
Flux & Dave get a room alreay !!!