Will Solomon trying some crazy shit that’s never going to workFor most of the game my emotions ranged somewhere between “hating Will Solomon” to “despising Will Solomon”. Towards the end they went from “feeling sorry for Bosh” to “thank heavens we extended that 3-point streak” and finally ended with the usual “good ‘ol Raptors blow it” feeling. It started nicely enough with Jermaine O’Neal dominating Dwight Howard. A couple blocks and a couple scores from O’Neal later you think to yourself that maybe we got the answer for Dwight Howard right here. Trouble is that whatever good O’Neal’s early play did was handed right back by Solomon’s early turnovers and inability to stop Nelson’s dribble penetration. Sound familiar?
Let me give an example, we were shooting 65% at one point in the second quarter and were only up by 5. The Magic at this point were shooting 38 percent. You knew that the percentages would eventually even out and that’s when you rued the early turnovers and felt that we shouldv’e been up by at least 15 if we had a backup PG who could go a full minute without a turnover. But hey, it wouldn’t have mattered. The Raptors have made it a business of opening double-digit first half leads only to fold late in the second quarter and unravel in the third and this wasn’t much different. Check the box.
So what went wrong. Let’s start with dribble penetration, the point of attack for the Magic wasn’t Hedo going at Bargnani, it was Jameer Nelson going at Will Solomon. Solomon continued to make a serious mistake all game long which went uncorrected by Mitchell: on every Magic high screen he either ended up trailing Nelson or getting caught behind the screen on the wrong side of the pick allowing Nelson free space to shoot, pass or drive. Once you allow that much space to even a slightly above average PG like Jameer Nelson he’ll gladly go 9-13 for 20 points. See, Mario Chalmers hasn’t learned to do that yet. To make matters worse Solomon failed to make a single entry pass into the post to any one of Bargnani, O’Neal or Bosh which meant our offense always started outside-in rather than the other way around. We failed to fully capitalize on the Magic’s slow start and a lot of it has to do with Solomon’s play. BTW, if you didn’t watch the game this hilarious play right here sums up Solomon’s night. Matt Devlin’s reaction is priceless. Bosh on the turnovers:
“That’s what did us in, we have to take care of the ball. I think if we do that we get a few more shots and you convert those turnovers into points that would not be much of a lead at all. We have cherish that ball, cherish every possession.”
Blaming the loss on Will is unfair. Let’s face it: he sucks. And to ask anything much of a player of that caliber is unfair. The question to ask is what happened to Bargnani and Parker? Bargnani went 2-9 for 5 points and 3 rebounds and Parker goes 2-6 with 4 points. Parker also went to bed safe in the knowledge that he got outplayed by JJ Redick. Yes, JJ F***ing Reddick. Bargnani was never given the ball in a position where he could slash to the rim like he did against Miami nor was he ever given a single post-up opportunity. Granted, Jose Calderon not being there considerably affects the ball movement but there needs to be a game-plan to get people the ball in good positions. I’m used to seeing Parker suck so it doesn’t bother me too much, but seeing Bargnani take only 2 first half shots stinks of a crappy game plan and one that doesn’t build on his success two days earlier. The fear coming into the game was whether Bargnani was going to be exploited by Hedo. That didn’t happen at all because the Magic were busy killing us at the PG spot to bother with that matchup, why we never looked to get him involved in the game is a mystery. Having said that, getting only three rebounds is pathetic and if you got an open look from four feet, you take the shot, not chicken out.
It’s hard to overcome 21 turnovers on any given night but when you’re also -11 on the break it means that you’re turning the ball over and not getting back on defense. In a game where the margin was 7 points heading into the final minute (that’s when Sam inexplicably mailed it in), those are all the stats you need to see. Hedo Turkoglu didn’t do his scoring damage till the fourth quarter (6-9 FG), before that he was driving past Moon and Parker and setting up Lewis and Redick for open jumpers. Now that I think about it, it wasn’t much different than the playoffs, the Magic knew that anytime they needed to get a good shot, all that was required was a drive to the paint off an isolation or a pick ‘n roll and suddenly the options opened up. Sam Mitchell talks about keeping the offense simple, maybe he should take note of Stan Van Gundy, that man keeps the offense brain dead – drive ‘n kick was their #1 play followed by working off of Howard doubles. They had a simple second-half plan and it worked nicely, we came into the game thinking Bargnani was going to replicate his Heat performance and Solomon was once again going to rack up 11 assists. Hey Sam, if something works for one game it doesn’t mean its going to magically work the next. Aside from Bosh, Bargnani is the only other matchup we could’ve exploited but never even ran a single damn play for him. It’s sad and speaks loudly about our game preparation. After the game Mitchell blamed the turnovers for the loss and if you like hearing the shats excuse, here it is again:
“They made shots, they made 3-point shots. They shot 47% from 3, they made shots in the second half..Chris took 16 shots, we got 80 shots for the game, Jermaine took 12, that’s a lot of shots for the game…..It’s just tough for us right now. We have two guys who are trying to learn in the NBA. You just have to shake it off. I know for myself if I had a tough game I would want to play as soon as possible so (tonight) he gets a chance to go out and play. Obviously you can’t turn the ball over 24 times. It’s hard to overcome 24 turnovers. Anybody who has ever watched even one game knows you can’t turn the ball over 24 times.”
Full Interview. It’s easy to pick out a stat and blame it as the reason for the loss. Unfortunately none of the reporters in the post-game press conference asked him about Kapono’s lack of involvement in the offense, Andrea Bargnani’s touches, the matchups that were left unexploited, being too cautious with player fouls and the stagnant offense which looked to give the ball to Bosh and get out of his way.
The Magic didn’t play all that great, they had 17 turnovers, got off to a slow start and didn’t get a dominant game from Dwight Howard. The difference is that they’re a deep team and have players who can step up (Lewis, Hedo and Nelson all with 22) and a coach that recognizes how to get his players off. If Van Gundy can get Lewis, Turkoglu and Nelson open looks, why can’t Sam Mitchell generate a single clean look for Jason Kapono. As AltRaps says, the man is a chicken running around in circles and doesn’t have a clue in the world of how he’s supposed to get his shots. So he ends up running the full semi-circle, catching the ball with the defense right up on him (I mean, why would they leave him) and either does a head-fake and pointless drive or launches a prayer that sometimes gets answered. Poor guy, you have to feel for him, but not as much as you feel for Bosh. More on him later. Our entire second half offense consisted of either giving it to Bosh and letting him do his thing or having Roko or Will waste 16 seconds off the clock by dribbling pointlessly and either throwing up a low-percentage jumper or passing it out to a wing player who really didn’t want the ball because he had no idea what to do with it. I’ve been saying it for two years now. Our fourth quarter offense is predictable, boring and most of all stoppable. It’s almost exclusively high pick ‘n roll except today nobody even rolled. Ukic used Bosh as the screener but CB4 didn’t even bother following through with the play and just waited for Ukic to give him the ball back so he could do his thing. Complete disarray. I counted one real cut to the rim all game long and that was by Bargnani on the first play of the game.
40 points, 18 rebounds and 14-19 FG. What more do you want? Bosh refused to lay down and played hard until the final minute when he was taken out. The look on his face cried for help from somebody, anybody, but nobody answered his call or followed his lead. Partly because he’s playing at an intensity level far above anybody else on the team save Jermaine O’Neal and remains the only true threat in our offense. The toughness he displayed today was admirable and if only one of Parker or Bargnani had shown up with the same zeal as him we would’ve won this game. I can’t say enough about Bosh’s performance, his point total equaled Howard and Lewis’ combined and he had one more rebound than both of them put together. He basically outplayed two of their best players single-handedly, its just that nobody helped him.
Jermaine O’Neal set a nice tone for us early but as soon as he went to the bench the defense took a hit. A very strong double-double of 16 points and 10 rebounds for the big man who’s starting to show signs of regaining his offensive touch. Today he hit a couple mid-range jumpers and got scores off offensive rebounds, his turnovers are still a problem and he’s got to figure out how to stay in the game longer. I thought he should’ve matched up with Dwight Howard on every play of the game, who cares if he has three fouls, keep him in there? If SVG can afford to keep Dwight Howard in the game with five fouls what’s stopping Sam Mitchell from keeping O’Neal in with four in the third quarter? I’m not saying Sam’s the reason we lost because at the end of the day the GM puts the team together and the GM’s given us a backup PG by the name of Will Solomon. Did Colangelo honestly think that this position wasn’t as big a problem as the SF? Especially after losing Carlos Delfino (who could play the point) and knowing that this is Jose’s first season as an NBA starting guard.
Some more stats to throw at you: Orlando shoots 46% while we go 2-14 from threes. The highest paid bench player in the league plays 31 minute and has 7 points and three turnovers. We go +6 on the boards but that’s not nearly enough to make up for the -11 fastbreak points and 21 turnovers. I don’t know how this game would’ve turned out if Jose Calderon was playing, I know we wouldn’t have had 21 turnovers and woud’ve been able to get the ball in the post more easily and wouldn’t have to wait till late in the fourth quarter for our first three. It’s a bad loss, Chris Bosh and Jermaine O’Neal’s strong games are wasted because nobody else stepped up and we suffered a big letdown at PG. I’d still put an asterisk next to it because of Jose not playing.
Thanks to everybody who showed up in the Live Chat, we’ll do it again tonight. We also selected our first Rap of the Day. Try to have a nice day after this bummer of a game.
107 Raps
Excellent review,
No doubt we can blame the turnovers,but to me it seemed that Sam mailed it in with a minute and change left ,and we were down 7….other coaches relish the last minute of the game,Sam was just rolling his eyes the entire time.COACH for F…. sakes.
Dont get me wrong ,I am not taking the darts out on Sam,but we were out coached again…
I would like to know how many times one of our players,JO or Bargs for that matter actually fouls out….what are we saving them for !!!2 quick fouls and park your ass on the bench,and when you get back in the game,and now out of the flow of the game kick some ass!!!
In all fairness,I was hoping to be competitive ,I think we proved that,but wow did that game reinforce what most of us have been saying for a while now,we need some wing help,and someone who can defend…and a back up with some experience.
Our man Bosh,left it on the court,and he led by example,but where did everybody else go…Bargs,Parker,Moon,Kapono,..OH! thats right we dont do wings.
oh man. i love that clip of will, glad i got to see it again & get a laugh out of this embarrassment. when i was watching last night, i lost count of how many ‘what the fuck’s i muttered, but it had to have been in the 30’s. i liked devlin’s call of will’s special play, reminded me of woody’s line at :50 of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5nKcN8Vo8Q
devlin actually called a pretty good game, he had quite a few WTF? moments as well, i’m guessing. though if thinks that the streak is important to any living human being, he needs to be snapped back to reality.
what can you say that hasn’t been said? when pretty much every guy plays like you assume they would, it shouldn’t be a bad thing. unfortunately, they only had one guy on the floor who i was confident would have a good game. that the m ost of their 1, 2 & 3 positions (sans jose) would have a tough time in the DL is not, i think, hyperbole.
i almost hope jose sits another few games – if he missed this one, then it’s probably worse than they initially assumed, and rest really is the only remedy for a hammy (i’m 18 months removed from my pull, and still feel it). & a few more outings like this, and it’ll force BC to snap out of it & DEAL FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING 2 OR 3 THIS TEAM DESPERATELY NEEDS. see, i think they could actually get by with will or roko as stop-gap back-ups, or even as emergency starters, but the lack of a reliable wing who can handle the ball in crunch time or make plays for himself is what’s really hurting. look around the league at the teams with go-to guys at the 2 or 3…when the game’s on the line, or they need to get points to stop a run, they hand the ball to their playmaker & basically let them go get it. the raps simply don’t have ANYONE on the roster (with or w/o jose in the lineup) who can effectively create his own shot. as great as he’s been playing, you can’t give bosh the ball at mid-court & say ‘go.’ he needs to gain position somewhere in the hi- or low-post, and someone needs to get him the ball.
watch pretty much any other game, and the first thing you’ll notice is how much easier everything seems on offense. for the raps last night, everything seemed like a struggle – bringing the ball up, making simple passes, gaining position in the post.
a question: why does adams wear the sweatband on his head? has he played enough this year (collectively) to actually break a sweat? and boy, did he hustle over to give howard a big ‘ole man-hug after the game, was surprised he didn’t ask for an autograph. talk about a guy just happy to be back in the league.
where was AP? didn’t redick start at 2? isn’t he pretty horrible defensively? isn’t he pretty one-dimensional offensively? shouldn’t that have been a mis-match? for US? i guess doug smith was wrong…redick can play. a little.
as for bargs – he showed what he was made of when he pulled out of what looked like a pretty wide-open 12-footer & pass off, ’cause he saw howard coming at him & didn’t want to get blocked. he turtled. kinda hard to go back to a guy who’s openly admitting that he’s intimidated.
Sam….its tough to learn on the job in front of 180000 people !!! why in the fuck did we hire him in the first place ?.When I hire a plumber for fuck sakes,I expect him to know what the hell hes doing,not training on my shit !!!
is there a way to edit / copy that youtube clip (devlin’s call of ‘the play’) into a ringtone? i’ve watched it about 3 dozen times this morning, and it cracks me up more each time.
the game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMq9yLGV4Ts
smitch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakinPNRiDc&feature=related
Last night’s starting PG constantly made fundamental errors. He dribbled too long, ended up in bad spots/ angles, made terrible passes, made bad decisions, gave the ball to the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc, etc. These PG errors led to even more bad decisions and complete offensive breakdowns that led to those turnovers. So, if Sam blames the loss on turnovers and shots it makes sense. I mean, are we looking for him to use the media to call out specific players now? I’m not. I just have to hope (HOPE!) that he’s saying and doing something about this behind closed doors.
One thing I noticed – these guys aren’t making it easy on their PGs. They are calling for the ball in terrible spots when they are barely open, leading to the (current)PG attempting passes he can’t make. How many times this year has Bargnani called for the ball from across the court, for example? Granted, last night’s across the court pass was sent by Parker and intended for Bargnani, but still. Why the hell are you asking your teammate to send the ball from one side of the 3pt line to the other? This is the NBA, someone is going to step up and pick off that pass. Bosh is calling for the ball when a precision pass is required from a guy who struggles with the simplest of passes. It’s not Bosh’s fault this guy is running the point, but he could at least try to simplify things. As soon as the ball gets out of Will’s hands, things get better (provided there’s time on the clock).
I just think we, as a team, don’t match up well against the Magic….full stop. Same as in the playoffs. Sure, Howard went mental, but it’s not like we could stop anybody else. Same happened last night. Howard was scoreless for, what did they say, 3 straight quarters, and yet we couldn’t stretch our lead past 10.
Every team has a team that they just don’t do well against…and we have yet to find our kryptonite for the Magic.
Great points, DSL.
Our movement without the ball is horrendous, save for…wait for it…Kapono (insert rolling-eyes smiley here). You can see Sam yelling at his guys to move (and you hear him imploring them to run the ball up the court) yet, this stuff continues to happen. It’s mind numbing.
yertu, I don’t know how to do that but here’s a start, download the AVI file for the clip:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z34vzum1yyj
AltRaps:
JO/O’Neal: Power vs Power
Bosh/Lewis: Both good players, no clear-cut advantage
Bargs/Hedo: Hedo wins quickness, we win size/strength
Parker/Reddick: They both suck
Solomon/Nelson: Obvious but Calderon can play him even. I think.
I don’t think its a horrible matchup at all. I think every analyst said that this was a winnable matchup in the playoffs. If you at that time stood by your current stance, I have mad respect for you.
dsl: “They are calling for the ball in terrible spots”. I thought they called for the ball when they’re in a position of advantage, sure they have to make the incoming angle easier for the passer but how much can you spoon-feed in this situation. Getting Howard on your back is a big task as it is, what more do you want? Once the PG struggles to get the ball in the post, all the big can do is step out and make the pass for the PG damn simple. Saw a lot of that last night. Our off-the-ball movement movement did overall suck but I’m used to that.
There are three sentences in this Game Review which are more important than all the others combined:
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re: I’m not saying Sam’s the reason we lost because at the end of the day the GM puts the team together and the GM’s given us a backup PG by the name of Will Solomon. Did Colangelo honestly think that this position wasn’t as big a problem as the SF? Especially after losing Carlos Delfino (who could play the point) and knowing that this is Jose’s first season as an NBA starting guard. – by Arsenalist
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When a GM in the NBA has a mediocre trade/acquisition/draft record that includes a number of solid decisions, no doubt, but also a number of transactions like these:
* Trades away a young Steve Nash
* Trades Jason Kidd for Stephon Marbury
* Trades Joe Johnson for Boris Diaw
* Trades Charlie Villanueva for TJ Ford
* Drafts PJ Tucker [2nd Round]
* Signs Fred Jones [UFA]
* Signs Jason Kapono [UFA]
* Trades two 2nd Round Draft Picks for Carlos Delfino
* Trades Ford + Nesterovic + Baston + No. 17 Draft Pick [2008] for Jermaine O’Neal + No. 41 Draft Pick [2008]
* Drafts Nathan Jawai [2nd Round]
* Signs Will Solomon [UFA]
* Signs Hassan Adams [UFA]
* Buys out Jorge Garbajosa [post traumatic leg injury/rehab]
it should [by all rights] call into question whether [or not] he has the type of Basketball Acumen it takes to be considered as something other than “Average” executive in this League.
Executive of The Year Award Winners [in the NBA] are little more than popularity contests which are voted on by fellow GM’s, not accredited/designated Media Members, in sharp contrast to a legitimate player award like the League MVP which is voted on, exclusively, by said Media Members.
When you look down this list and see the names of those individulas who have received this award WITHOUT first having the team they GM with actually win the League Championship, in comparison with the individuals whose teams did just that, it’s clear to see that certain family Surnames carry an abundance of cache, in this League, while others do not.
Decision-making is, perhaps, THE most important skill associated with the game of basketball, played at an elite level; none moreso than those made off the court by a team’s GM when assembling a roster of players and coaches.
I think we match up rather well with Orlando. Liked what I saw with O’Neal on Howard.
Solomon did not impress me much against Miami, and last night he looked like the rookie he is.
Kinda looked like 2 on 5 for most of the night.
khandor pal, here we go again? can we stick to talking about the game and not whether BC is a genius or a retard.
I think we matchup well with Orlando too and would’ve won this game if JC was playing. Arse is right to put an asterisk next to the game. Picture this game with our average amount of turnovers instead of 21?
I was a Parker supporter but he’s lost it. He’s become worse each season and his offense is inconsistent enough that he should be riding pine if we had a decent backup which we dont so hes going to continue gettin minutes
i thought lewis did a great job fronting bosh & forcing the pass, if it were to be made, to be over the top (much higher risk), which allows time for the D to react & rotate, and allows weak-side help to slide under.
on the flip side, bargs showed he still has a ways to go defending in the post, as he tried to front howard, who just went to the hoop for an uncontested oop. now that was pathetic. it’s one thing to be ooped-on in the open court or transition, but this was a slow, half-court set, and hedo held the ball up & stared down howard for a good 2-count. for bargs to A) attempt to front howard in the first place, B) fall asleep so badly that he not notice that he wasn’t attempting to post him up, just shows he’s got some work to do.
in the end, it all comes down to the wings being a complete & utter non-factor. they couldn’t alleviate the pressure in the post by spreading the D, they couldn’t alleviate the pressure on will/roko to make plays by handling the ball, they couldn’t hit their shots, and they didn’t get back on D.
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re: I don’t think its a horrible matchup at all. I think every analyst said that this was a winnable matchup in the playoffs. If you at that time stood by your current stance, I have mad respect for you. – by Arsenalist
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NBA Playoffs Preview 2007-2008.
Nuff said.
Arsenalist – I thought I saw a number of plays last night where Bosh was being fronted and he was still asking for the ball. Those are tough passes to make. Or, we see JO too far outside and asking for the ball. Not a hard pass, but in bad position for him on most nights (he made some longer shots last night). Then there’s Bargnani, asking for the ball in just plain weird spots.
Maybe if we look at it like this – Will is dribbling and standing around for way too long. He misses the windows when guys are just naturally open, so it’s left for them to ‘ask’ for the ball. By then, it’s too late because they end up with a classic telegraphed pass (not to mention one that’s often poorly thrown). The angles are often bad and the precision demanded from Will is just way too high.
As AltRaps suggests, the movement is terrible out there. That’s just it, if Will could just make a simple dump pass once he crosses half court, we’d see better movement. The guys would be getting better angles and looks through ball movement and the load could be taken off of Will.
Mark pal, it’s a matter of emphasis.
If others are attempting to find solutions to the Raptors’ current set of problems … examining the ’skills & abilities’ of (i) the players and (ii) the head coach, in isolation/primarily, is a waste of time.
If you’re in need of a heart transplant improving your in-take of fruits and vegetables isn’t going to cure what ails you…especially if you don’t happen to be a nutritional specialist [or a grocer], in the first place.
Yertu,
Lot of good bigs have difficulty with Howard.
It wasn’t Bargnani’s defence that hurt us. Was his lack of offence(and the 482 turnovers- or so it seemed).
tin – not saying anything different, howard’s a beast. the play i outlined was simply an example of bargs still not ‘getting it.’ i’m sure he’ll provide many other examples.
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re: i thought lewis did a great job fronting bosh & forcing the pass, if it were to be made, to be over the top (much higher risk), which allows time for the D to react & rotate, and allows weak-side help to slide under. – by yertu
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Like what happend on the playoff series-ending play with New Jersey.
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re: on the flip side, bargs showed he still has a ways to go defending in the post, as he tried to front howard, who just went to the hoop for an uncontested oop. now that was pathetic. it’s one thing to be ooped-on in the open court or transition, but this was a slow, half-court set, and hedo held the ball up & stared down howard for a good 2-count. for bargs to A) attempt to front howard in the first place, B) fall asleep so badly that he not notice that he wasn’t attempting to post him up, just shows he’s got some work to do.
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The most effective way to combat a Low Skill/Power-based Post Player, like Dwight Howard, is to ‘Play Behind’ him and do ‘Early Work’ by attempting not to allow him to set up shop quite as deep as he wants to; then do your best to hold that ground, as the reinforcements arrive [i.e. assorted 'Cover Downs' and 'Post Double-teams'.
'Fronting' vs Dwight ... is a recipe for disaster.
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re: in the end, it all comes down to the wings being a complete & utter non-factor. they couldn’t alleviate the pressure in the post by spreading the D, they couldn’t alleviate the pressure on will/roko to make plays by handling the ball, they couldn’t hit their shots, and they didn’t get back on D. - by yertu
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When a NBA team makes the decision to place its faith in a 'Twin Towers' approach to the game ... ala San Antonio [with Robinson & Duncan] & Houston [with Sampson & Olajuwon] … by definition, this means that there is NOT going to be a Wing Player of note on this team. The NBA game is a finite environment … and when a team establishes this approach it means that the bulk of its scoring is going to come from its Post Players not its Wings. To think that a team with a ‘Twin Towers’ approach to the game can ALSO find, incorporate and THEN utilize effectively a high-calibre Wing player, in the NBA, is utter folly.
khandor, I’m not saying the same analysts that said Orlando was a better matchup for us didn’t pick them to win. It was just that: a better matchup for us than Cleveland or Detroit. Also, the quote you pasted is taken out of context, I’m not exonerating Mitchell for the loss, just saying its not primarily his fault.
dsl: I think the post player can realistically get himself in a position for an entry-pass for about two or three seconds at the most. It’s the PG’s duties to find him in that brief period of time. I’d lay the blame 80% on the guards for not getting the job done by either not finding a right angle or not figuring a right lob.
I’m not saying our off-the-ball movement is good, in fact its brutal. Even when we do move its without a purpose or goal, it’s like we’re moving because we’re supposed to be moving. There’s no rhyme or reason behind it, notice the baseline movements by Parker and Moon, how often do they ever come to any fruition? I think the guards are the problem here, not CB4 and JO. Or even Bargnani for that matter.
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re: khandor, I’m not saying the same analysts that said Orlando was a better matchup for us didn’t pick them to win. It was just that: a better matchup for us than Cleveland or Detroit. Also, the quote you pasted is taken out of context, I’m not exonerating Mitchell for the loss, just saying its not primarily his fault. by Arsenalist
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When someone’s got a loaded weapon pointed directly at you, from close range … it’s of little consequence whether it’s a pistol, a semi-automatic or a shotgun.
If you survive the onslaught … of far greater significance is what you learn from being ‘caught’ in that type of experience, in the first place, and the decisions you make in order to prevent it from happening to you again.
Basketball, played at an elite level … is a game of exponential decision-making.
^^ I don’t know what you’re talking about there.
Tinman, Bargnani took two first half shots. What you say about that? Mitchell not looking for him or Bargnani drifting into the shadows?
How can anyone say we matchup well with Orlando??!!! And some of us were calling a sweep or a 4-1 with Dwight avg. 20 plus rebounds for the series. That’s what pretty much happened. All we did was give Dwight and that team reason to believe that they are legit, we will always be their prison b***h, like Alt said.
They have more talent and skill then us and their mental game (the most important thing in all of this) is leaps and bounds ahead of us. Anyone who thinks JO has swagger and legitimately gets into anyone’s head the way KG gets into 90% of League, is simply lying to themselves. Blame who you want, at the end of the day, this collection of players does not have IT. FU-GA-ZZI!
Arsenalist,
It means that … in actuality, none of Boston, Detroit, Cleveland or Orlando was a ‘good’ match-up for Toronto last season. IMO, those who thought otherwise were not correct.
Neither was Washington, if their squad was completely healthy.
IMO, if the Raptors would have faced either Atlanta or Philadelphia, only then would they have had a solid match-up, as a 1st Round Playoff Opponent … which was/is a right/opportunity earned by the No. 1 & No. 2 teams in the EC.
… and the second part is this:
What did the Raptors do this past off-season to improve their team’s chances of finishing in either the No. 1 or No. 2 positions in the EC, in order to be matched-up in the Playoffs with a lower end team [of the 8 remaining] and not get ‘caught’ in THAT same type of situation again.
Kaboom! … One & done.
[IMO, whoever thought that adding Jermaine O'Neal + Will Solomon + Roko Ukic + Hassan Adams + Nathan Jawai ... at the expense of Rasho Nesterovic + TJ Ford + No. 17/2008 Draft Pick (e.g. CDR or Hibbert or Dorsey or etc.) + Carlos Delfino + Jorge Garbajosa (forget about Baston & Brezec) ... needs to have their Basketball Acumen called into question.]
Sorry Khandor, i am still having trouble with the analogy. What does the gun have to do with anything?
When a team is better then you (a threatening weapon) does it (matter what weapon kind it is) what team?
Dino Gunners,
Boston … Gatling Gun
Detroit … Semi-automatic
Cleveland … Pistol [loaded with a single but tried and TRUE bullit]
Orlando … Semi-automatic
Washington [if healthy] … Shotgun
vs
Toronto [in a hostage scenario]
Jason Kapono got called for travelling at least 2 times in the first half and that is terrible. You would think that after the first time a professional would make note of the mistake and self-correct. I can count at least 3 other times this season when he has been called for the exact same mistake. Does anyone think this has anything to do with the fact that he became a non-factor on offence and has no plays called for him? Or is it Smitch’s fault? Or possibly the inability of the PG’s to run anything that remotely resembles an offensive game plan?
Sorry that should have read “when teams are better then you”
Don’t post much if at all but read the articles.
Arsenalist – great recap as usual. You’re #1 on the morning read.
I love the articles on this site but the comments section is disappointing and its mainly because of people like khandor who drone on and one in verbose prose about simple basketball. The condescension is just too much to bear and the analogies are out of whack, the italics, bolding and capitalization of random words is annoying. Just look at this thread, the first 9 comments have a flow to it and as soon as khandor comes in, it just stops and we’re back to debating the topics of the summer.
Back to the game, I think we win this if Calderon is starting. You, dsl and d279 have said what’s needed to be said. Couldn’t get the ball to the right people and turned the ball over too many times. AP’s done like dinner, he’s playing 35MPG and averaging 10/2/2.
Changing gears …
Did anybody else happen to hear Butch Carter’s Raptors’ segment on PrimeTime/FAN590 yesterday?
What he had to say about:
1. The appropriateness/correctness of the ‘Making Shats’ rationale which ALL nba coaches use to explain properly, via short-hand, what happens in a game, at this level of competition, when one team wins a game based on its assurdly high shooting percentage versus its opponent’s unusually low shooting percentage;
and,
2. The importance of ‘Establishing a Style of Play’;
was Right On the Money!
Arse, comment #22. Last night Sam was too quick on the hook on both Bargs and JO and then waited too long to bring them back. Fine, if Bargs has picked up 2 quick fouls I can understand you sub him out. But Sam has a tendency to forget about him and bury him on the bench until the near end of the half. By that point Bargnani is done. I’ve rarely seen Bargs emerge with a big game after getting off to a slow start. I think both Sam and Bargs are to blame.
Along the same vein, no reason JO should only get 26 minutes in a game like last night. Let these guys play through it. You’re absolutely right when you say Sam is overly cautious when it comes to fouls. Maybe he thinks you foul out at 5 instead of 6.
But turnovers was what killed us last night. Solomon was sooooooooooooo bad.
Flux, don’t see anyone in here comparing JO to KG. Don’t see anyone talking about JO getting into anyone’s head. What are you talking about? JO is not KG. The Raps are not the Lakers. That’s obvious. Don’t get why you keep driving the point home.
Badass.. because since we got him words like toughness and swagger are constantly being used to describe what he has brought to the team. His barking antics, have scared no one and are fake. As was said.. the Raptors look scary, but put fear in no one. That’s the truth about the team and JO.
Ok so why do you guys have Philly at 3-5? I don’t get it and I just noticed my comment was erased.
Arse -
The first half we were getting our buckets from different sources, seemed like we were scoring inside with CB and JO. We didn’t need to run plays for him.
Second half we could of used a jolt. He missed his shots. He ended up with 9 attempts which is probably 1 0r 2 lower than his average. If he would of sank them two 3’s that were missed would we be having this discussion. They were good looks on plays that seemed to of been run for him. Quite simply “he missed his shats”
Why are we surprised that we laid a bomb last night. Everyone was jumping on the Solomon bandwagon after the Heat but he really didn’t impress that much against Miami.. His #’s were good but his play wasn’t. Last night was a dose of reality.
I actually came away feeling OK about last might. JO showed he can guard DH as well as anyone and Bosh continues to amaze. Everyone else brought their D game – and it was still close.
Arsenalist – I think we mostly agree here. 80/20 is how I would probably assess the blame too (the bulk of this lies with the PG). I also think that the team on the floor is only as strong as its weakest link. If that weak link is the PG, they can either keep going as they normally would with Jose (like last night) or they can try to mask that weakness.
Thanks for the thoughts – it’s always nice to have a rational conversation about this team.
bargs – his 3 pt shats were indeed open looks, but he didn’t look set on 2 of them, and his mechanics were eerily similar to last year, when he got into aiming/line-driving his shats. when those didn’t fall, he seemed to stop looking to be involved…again, like last year.
2 full years in the league, a considerable number of games started, playoff experience, trying a number of positions, and we’re still pretty much at the same stage of his development as we were in Nov. 2006. not saying he hasn’t improved, he has…almost to the point of competency. just makes me wonder if it’s too much to ask for CONSISTENT competency…
Oh, and I just noticed the caption under the picture. Awesome, just awesome.
anyone else get a little ill when they saw replays of bosh tweaking his knee? i mean, it looked like it went the wrong way in both directions. any word on him…i assume that since it hasn’t been mentioned, nothing happened.
where’s some fucking wood?
Baadass, agreed. I’d like to add that we didn’t make enough effort to get Bargnani off to a good start since as you said, he had good games if he has good starts. If you can notice that I don’t see why Mitchell can’t.
dsl/Tinman: As some have already pointed out, I think we win this game with Jose in there. Pure and simple.
yertu: Notice that whenever Bargnani has good games, he always starts off inside by getting a layup, a dunk or a drive ‘n kick. Something going to the rim. I think Leo’s analysis on Bargnani has been bang-on in terms of what’s needed for him to start off well. I hear ya on the consistent competency, I have a fear that we’ll never see that in him, at least not to the degree of….here it comes….Brandon Roy. Best we can do is accept the mistake and work with what we’ve got. I think he can still be a pretty good player under a good coach.
Nice game review at # 10 khandor, I agree with you that the young Nash trade lost us the game last night yeah that’s about right.
I asked this last night of all the Sam haters. If not him, who is the right coach for this team. Who takes this group of players and gets the most out of them and makes them, as others seem to think they are, contenders?
In regards to Solomon and the offence last night, one thing that hasn’t been highlighted was the fact that in order to help him against the pressure from the Orlando PG’s, Bosh in particular was coming much further out to set picks, than typically isn’t the case with Jose. Setting your offence further on the perimeter is likely going to reduce the quality of shots, although it didnt hurt Bosh particularly last night, but reduced the doubles he faced and meant that other Raps didnt get the looks that they normally get.
I also think that the Magic executed esactly as they did last year when they used dribble penetration to draw and kick. Our PGs and SGs cant defend penetration and that results in a lot of open looks. We are consisitently getting beat on that front. All due resepct to Jose, but his being in the line up wouldnt have helped on that front.
I also beleive we are letting Smitch off a little to easy. When there is no movement on offence away from the ball, the coach is partly responsible. Shouldnt we have some sets or built in motion into the offence. You know set some picks, move to open spots?? In addition, I remember one set where Bosh had Howard in the post, back to basket. He gets the ball from Solomon and Nelson doubles. Solomon should be moving to get a good look and make them pay. Instead he moves towards center court, towards traffic and makes it virtually impossible for Bosh to kick him the ball. Does someone need to explain the concept??
As for all of the BC bashing over the past few days, I dont get it. I look at him as neither hero nor goat. He has certain parameters he is given to work with but they MLSE. I am sure he wants to win, but he can’t force MLSE to spend. He’s an employee and wants to keep his job, can’t blame him for that. Some may criticize him for the off season moves, rightly or wrongly, I’m not smart enough to say. I would wait to see how things work out, at least until the half way mark. One thing that we can’t overlook is that I think he had to do something at the PG spot, as TJ and Jose couldnt co-exist. So given that what else was out there. I am not sure you would have kept Delfino regardless. As for Garbo, I liked the guy, but you free up cap space for 2010 by buying him out.
We need better wing players, better back ups, better floor cleaners at the ACC, better priced food. But you plow with the ox you’ve got. In this case, I am not convinced we are getting the best out of the team that we have. I think we can beat Orlando, in a 4 out of 7, less certain, and we havent demonstrated it yet.
I said it here before and I say it again, injuries aside, the key to success this season will be Andrea. If he develops we have a solid front court and passable backcourt that can compete. If he doesnt, the gaps become way more obvious.
Arse-
Thanks for your response but you’r comment to me was
“Tinman, Bargnani took two first half shots. What you say about that? Mitchell not looking for him or Bargnani drifting into the shadows”
Do not understand your response which was
“dsl/Tinman: As some have already pointed out, I think we win this game with Jose in there. Pure and simple”
Believe I answered your initial inquiry, cannot relate to your response.
On Bargnani and his shot attempts
Bargnani has averaged 7.5 shots in 23 minutes a night this season coming into yesterday’s game. Against Orlando he took 9 shots in 22 minutes, which is higher than normal for him (pace wise, per minute his shot attempts vs Orlando was higher than Bosh on the season, something to ponder).
Bargnani has been timid offensively since preseason ended. This is shown with his lowest ever:
[1] shot attempts per game (7.7 field goals attempted versus 9.3-9.6)
[2] scoring per game (9.2ppg versus 10.2-11.6)
[3] FTs attempted per game (free throw attempts down almost two thirds, 0.8 from 2.2).
Bargnani’s low scoring numbers combined with his lack of rebounding has …. well hurt the team significantly over the opening 10 games.
DG, I don’t know if our offense is fine-grained enough for a fact like where Solomon sets the pick to matter.
Bosh didn’t get doubled as much yesterday because there was no need to double him. SVG chose to play him straight-up because Lewis has the quickness and size to matchup with him, the only “double” that came was when he put the ball on the floor and attacked the rim, that’s when their defense somewhat collapsed in the paint. We didn’t see a single traditional double team, you know, the one where we throw the ball in the post to him and a double comes before he even takes a dribble. As I said in the post, the Magic didn’t complicate things: straight up defense and drive ‘n kick offense. Can’t get much simpler.
My issue with Smitch is that he expects the results of one game to carry over to the next. I think he was expecting Bargnani to have another 12 point first quarter without doing anything different than the Heat game. All I expected from Sam pertaining to Bargnani was to isolate him on the wing against Hedo and let him try to create or score on at least three first quarter possessions. Is that too much to ask? Mitchell’s a “go with the flow” frestyling coach that doesn’t have the basketball acumen to construct a diverse offensive scheme which can utilize the resources on the team, mainly Kapono and Bargnani, two players that need coaching help. I really believe that. Chris Bosh will get his because he’s got unbelievable talent, same with Jose and even JO. It’s the success of the mediocre NBA players that goes a long way in defining a coach’s true impact.
As for BC, the jury’s out on him. I’ll give him this trade deadline to make his mark. Maybe even the summer.
DG
It not so much BC bashing, as it’s let’s bring down the over-praise down a notch. And the let’s wait 20 games is going to become let’s wait until half season, that will become let’s wait until the playoffs, and that will become let’s wait till next year, and then let’s wait unitl 2010 and on and on and on. It’s what the fanbase has been doing forever. Start season with hope, bring it down to reality by playoffs, stay disappointed for a day or week, re insert new dose of hope in off season. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, while MLSE is laughing all the way to the bank.
I think Jose would have made us look less like the Washington Generals, but we still would have lost the game. And yeah that was deja vu of the playoffs.
DG, where is Mop Girl?
Sorry Tin, I agree with your response. If the “shats” fall, nobody complains, I just don’t think bombing away three pointers is the way to start off a game for Bargnani. IMHO, he always needs to play inside-out because its obvious to me that he loses confidence when he misses early and we shouldn’t increase his chances of getting easy early scores. For example, I love that cut on the first play of the game. Why didn’t we see more of that?
The ideal coach for this team would be a person like Tom Thibodeau. A defense-first coach who would create set plays for the team. He has not had any head coach experience, but he was the assistant for the Boston last year and is largely credited for their defensive success (besides the kg factor) along with. He is an assistant and i am sure he would want to be a coach one day. What do you guy think of our chances of getting him?
Bargnani still does not have a big man’s mentality on offence. Defensively I like where he has improved. But offensively, when a big man catches the ball 5 feet from the basket as he did last night, he must go up strong, take some contact and get to the line. A big man should be drooling when getting the ball that low. Bargs gets it that low and looks like he has no idea what to do with it.
Arse, thanks for (sort of) proving my point.
You know what, a playoff series with any team in the east will come at us with everything they got because our coach insists on exposing our weaknesses for others to see. Boom! The Lion pounces on the helpless antelope sensing he’s weak and helpless. I do think we have enough pieces to push to the second round, I’ll say. Enough shooters around the perimeter and 2 big men who can bang with the best of them, if we had the right coach to utilize what we have. We don’t. The way were built, were a 6-7 seed all over again and going to Face Cleveland or Detroit first round and We don’t have the coaching to win here.
the best laid plans still have to be executed.
I like your analogy of MLSE. Rinse and repeat year after year while ticket prices rise. It holds true what there real motive is and now everyone in Toronto and areas suspects as well.
List of excuses:
2007 Bargnani had an apandectomy so that’s why we lost in the playoffs. Last Year Bargnani needed sinus surgery, stunted out growth, TJ Ford injury, point guard controversy etc. This Year we have new players who need time to find there grove in the NBA landscape, we have inadequate wings, poor coaching. Lets wait till 2010 and were going to be players without a doubt.
No Problem here. But Bosh leaves, Oneil leaves and BC uses Cap Space to sing European prospects and second round picks from the Draft. Give us 5 years to jell we have a new foundation in place were determined to see this works out.
Can anyone think of any reason why our parent company would be afraid to build a contender and win? Is there a conspiracy theory that MLSE needs all the income from ticket prices, concessions, parking, AD sales, merchandising to first use towards teachers who are retiring and winning isn’t worth the risk at the expense of their pension?
With the economy being what it is, it’s no surprise their risk tolerance is non existent.
Buy yeah the excuse train has been running full steam for over a decade, only making stops at the bank to make a deposit.
What’s sad is that it’s become clear the majority of the fanbase finds no fault with the ownership or with BC and very little if any with the players (read none). It is all Sam’s fault. So, when FAQ asks why he looks the way he does, it’s cuz he’s on the verge of pulling a Zeke. One man is holding the entire organization hostage, yet management is not doing anything about it. Then again, why get rid of someone who everyone thinks is to blame. Pure genius.
Careful what you wish for on the MLSE front folks. Name someone interested in buying an NBA franchise who will also be committed to keeping it in Toronto. They may be money-grubbing whores, but they are our money-grubbing whores.
Are there any millionaire or billionaire readers of this blog? Maybe you guys can join forces and buy this thing and become the Mark Cubans of Toronto. I’d love to see a fan owner of the Raptors.
Good luck prying it away from their greedy little hands. And Sam, sometimes I wish there weren’t a franchise here.. it’s so painfully obvious what it is for the NBA, it makes me sick.
MLSE would be stupid to not try and win. Think long-term. What is worth more to a franchise’s value, a consistent competitive team with a few championships or a middling first round and out team? From MLSE’s perspective, what would maximize the value of their investment? I would spend the extra twenty million if it reaps all the benefits of an extended playoff run, increase in franchise value and stronger ticket sales. I think its bullcrap that people enjoy supporting a semi-competitive loser. If they remain as is, people will tune out, no matter how hard-core the fans are. People want to see progress and im sure MLSE is smart enough to realize that. The loss in fan interest and merchanding sales is not worth the few extra million staying under the luxury tax with a middling team. People are taking way too short-term a view with this roster. We have a huge contract coming off the books next year as well as cap flexability from the expiring of our other talent. Players want to play with a competitor like bosh, we might be able to get JO for a smaller contract (8/9), BC’s biggest mistake are his strikes with the draft, we have no legit rodney stuckey-like talent coming through the pipeline
Your not winning fuck all with a teachers board in charge of a sports franchise, fact. Yet people still fork over $500 fork tickets only watch them loose the game in the end? When tickets are at an mind boggling rate like that, you would think they can afford to hire a top notch GM and wouldn’t think twice about going into the Luxury tax. Nope. Its criminal what they do.
It should be like the NFL were only 1 owner can buy a team – no corporations. Had someone like Jim Balsillie bought the team and were a champ contender right now both Leafs and Raptors and Toronto FC.
TSN, Bell, TD Bank, teachers, Tananebaum – who owns the team?
Joey,
Only one team wins at the end of the season. Do the rest all suck?
Raptors are on their way to respectability.
Season is young, JO working into his groove, Bargnani coming around… blah, blah, blah
Joey, it doesn’t matter how profane you get, no one is going to change the C you just got in English :)
I think just about everyone posting is getting lost in the daily grind. I guess that means we should all check in in about 10 games. Who knows where this team is going.
ONE LOSS! ONE LOSS! And suddenly we need a change of players, coaches, gm, and ownership. I know, this team is frustrating to watch, and it feels like we’ve taken a step back from a couple years ago. But it’s not like we’re totally screwed. I like what JO has been doing, steadily getting better, and Calderon and Bosh are still good. Maybe we do need a new coach, or maybe we need the GM to step up. But whatever the case, what’s up with the PANIC?
Dino.. you tell me why they are not spending the extra money. Is it because they want a sure thing? They want to be told do this and this will happen. They are clearly not willing to take that risk. And htey want every move they make to have a fallback plan and tied in benefit. Hence, being a middling first round and out team is way more profitable for them. Keep selling hope, and your are collecting money from merch and everything else anyway, you don’t need to go deep in the post season. People will never tune out, because here they are optimistic by nature..”Well, there’s always next year” and “Well, at least we got a team and it’s ours” The Leafs (and I know nothing about hockey) haven’t won anything in how long, and they are the most profitable team in North America (or something like that…maybe MLSE being the most profitable). Some of us are looking at the big picture,while other wanna blame player x for not making that cut, the coach for not making THAT sub, etc etc.
And Arse didn’t some Middle Eastern guy offer these clowns an insane amount of money and they turned it down? What does this tell you?
I don’t think you will find many markets that are more economically viable than Toronto for professional sports. We are the 6th largest market in the US/Canada. The ACC is the second busiest venue in North America. We all know that the Leafs are a cash cow, and the Raptors are on there way. People don’t realize what a lock MLSE has on season seat holders in the higher priced seats. We really cant get out of buying tickets unless we are willing to lose a significant license fee which we pay upfront. It is the biggest racket in town but admitedly some of us have fallen for it. There are many days I regret getting season seats, but its too late to get out now.
MLSE isn’t like many of the profit be damned, I want to win owners, but I’m not sure thats a recipe for success either, although it cant hurt.
As for desire to win, I am sure that the MLSE would prefer to win than to lose, but not at the expense of the profits. They probably analyze the costs and benefits and say, hey we can break the bank and win a Stanley Cup/NBA Championship and we’ll make less money, probably not justifiable to our shareholders. If we can do it and make more/same money than definately.
I think we may have to start picketing the OTPP offices and our local public schools, to force a change. Also stop banking at TD, and dont buy any of Tannenbaum’s construction projects (whatever they are?).
I think all that could possible be said about this game has been said.
20 games is what I said I’d give this team to find itself and I’m sticking to it. If we don’t show signs of significant improvement after that, BC has to look at either acquiring talent or changing the way we play (firing coach). He can’t let .500 ball continue for too long and the schedule only gets tougher. If Doug Smith is to be believed, Sam’s job is safe as ever which leaves us two options if we continue on the path to mediocrity which doesn’t get you a playoff spot this year: 1) stand pat 2) make a trade.
Given the NBA’s imposing trade rules, I don’t see us acquiring anything significant without giving up AB and I don’t think BC is going to let him go just yet, so there goes the trade route out the window. Standing pat and waiting for a FA signing seems to be the most logical option if we struggle. Just putting 2 and 2 together.
MLSE is singing this (to us) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3m-gOelA8g&feature
DG.. that’s what I am saying, or was trying to. Their analysis is all cost benefit.
Arse, in other words, short of Sam pulling coaching miracles, nothing to write home about for the next 2 years at the very last.
Geeze, Flux. You’re way off base. That line of thinking may hold water with the Leafs, but when applied to the Raptors it makes absolutely no sense. The Raptors have a loyal fan base in the GTA, but outside of it they’re constantly overshadowed by curling, fishing and darts. Friggin’ darts! If the Raps win and advance in the playoffs, the fan base will expand in Ontario and throughout Canada.
The Leafs already have a devout fan base nation-wide. Leafs fans were raised on hockey, they’re parents were raised on hockey, they’re grandparents …. whereas the Raptors and basketball in Canada is all relatively new. Winning will net them way more cash in ticket sales, merch and overall revenues.
The Leafs can suck and lose for 40 years and maintain their fan base. If the Raps go 5 straight seasons without making the playoffs, their very existence could be in jeopardy. At this point there is no comparison to be made. We can argue all day long about BC’s decisions to date, but the management brought him here to win.
lol
This isn’t just 1 game guys. Its a never ending cycle of mediocrity and continuity were profits keep rising, but nothing really changes. Have you been following the Leafs or Raptors for the last 6 or 7 years? Do you not see a pattern here. There is nothing I have read now in 2008 that I didn’t read in 2003. We have a Poor coach or Poor GM running the teams and we need change is all I heard on the Radio and on TV.
Remember this is the ownership that Hired Rob Babcock, Hired John Ferguson Jr, Fried pat Quinn, even though he had done nothing wrong, Dismisses Scotty Bowman as a potential GM. They are more happy when a New Condo Development is in the works then when a marque free agent is available that can put us over the top. This is is all under the watch of Richard Peddie. For all we know Colangelo is a great GM but is being hand cuffed and is forced to sign cheap minimal players to meet his budget. You can fire all the coaches and general mangers you want but you need to address the root cause of why out Teams are always sinking instead of swimming.
And by the way I am an asshole in real life and love to argue so just accept it and yeah… :)
Badass, I get what you are saying, but I think the fanbase is much bigger then you think. And if you own one business and run it well, (in the same industry) it only makes sense to apply the same tactics to another one. There is more of a comparison then you think. Between 2002 and 2006 this team sucked by all standards, with no playoffs.. did anyone tune out? Was their existence in jeopardy? I don’t think so, Sir.
Arse, next 10 opponents are: MIA,NJ,BST,CHR,ATL,LAL,DEN,UTH,POR,CLV. What kind of record do you envision by that time?
so, let’s recap:
1: smitch is safe (though if smith says it…)
2: AB won’t be traded
3: they won’t go over the tax ‘unless.’
with this lineup, #1 doesn’t matter; despite his (many, to some) shortcomings, smitch being the HC may not matter in the grand scheme of things. i’m sure a more experienced, savvy, fill-in-the-blank, coach would be able to squeeze an extra few wins out of this group over the course of a season, but for the most part, coaches in general get too much credit & too much blame.
if #2 is a hard & fast fact, then their options for upgrading AT ALL are limited.
if #3 is true (and there’s no reason to believe it isn’t), then we can stop looking for miracle-worker SF FA to drop to us.
so, if none of 1, 2 or 3 are likely to happen, then what we’ve got is 72 more games with this crew.
wooot!
This sounds realistic, no?
@ MIA: ?
v NJ: W
v BST: L
v CHR: W
v ATL: W
@ LAL: L
@ DEN: L
@ UTH: L
v POR: ?
@ CLV: L
The ? means we got a 50/50 shot at winning. Would not put money on those games.
next 10…if they manage 4 wins, i’d be surprised.
This is what the Rap’s should do against those teams: win, win, lose, win, win, lose, win, lose, lose, lose. damn, raps suck.
Actually yes, people did tune out. Attendance went down every single year (http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamatt.htm?tm=tor&lg=n) and the television viewership (which was never good on a national level and still isn’t) stagnated. Its easy for people like you and I to overestimate the Raptor fan base because we’re constantly surrounded (both in life and online) by other Raps fans. But most of this country does not give a shit about the Raptors. The only thing that will change that is winning.
My point is BC is one of the most respected executives in the NBA. He was brought here to win. Its not like they hired some first year shmuck to learn on the job. Again, whether you think he’s delivered is another story. But don’t try selling us the old Maple Leaf refrain that making money is more important than winning because in the Raptor’s case, it simply doesn’t apply.
Flux,
I understand what you are saying with regards to how MLSE operates. They always seem to make the safe move, as the company is very conservative by nature. There will always be that rabid fan base, but the casual fan will stop paying attention if the team sucks for too long. Look at the detroit lions. They have been crappy forever, and look at that team now, its a laughingstock. People have no hope for that team. The problem is that the season ticket holders are losing interest because they can see the problem with the team but there are enough fans to cover those who refund. However, there are a finite number of these fans and will decrease as the team quality remains poor. I do agree that MLSE is in a fairly comfortable position right now financially but i am arguing that it should be in their best interest to win, as there are far more benefits long term. The problem is that the only way to prompt them into that thinking is for the stadium to be empty and that will not happen anytime soon.
sorry what i mean by empty is, not at full capacity with a waiting list. The thinking would shift if the team averages around 11-12 k people.
Long time reader, (and by long time, i mean since the Celtics Loss) first time poster…
If you all want to fire Sam Mitchell, fine… That is your opinion… But to think that a new coach is going to come in and suddenly cure everything that is wrong with this team is ludicrous. When we won on Sunday, nobody said anything about Sam, it was the players who won… Now the team loses and Sam Mitchell is the devil?
I agree Sam is not the smartest coach we have had… my personal fave was Butch Carter… but the players are the ones on the floor making plays. Solomon was a complete bum last night (7 turnovers???) Bargnani struggled again, and AP and JKilla were not very good. We have a serious hole at the 2/3 and we are not going to be able to compete with good teams unless a move is made. Once we have stronger play from the wings, and we still struggle, then it might be time for a change. But you don’t get rid of a coach 10 games into a season… especially if you’re a .500 team. Would you guys prefer to have Kevin O’Neill back? How about Lenny Wilkens? Maybe we should get JVG… I’m pretty sure the first game those guys lose, you guys will be bashing them. How many of you guys have any experience at NBA level? (sorry for the rant… its meant at the guys who are complete know it all shit disturbers…)
I enjoy the articles, and some of the commenters (the sane ones), but you over the top bandwagon jumpers make me sick. I have been a Raps fan since Carlos Rogers was my favourite player… Things could be a lot worse… Trust me. You guys need to relax.. maybe put on some Bob Marley during the games and chill out…
@ MIA: we made shats
v NJ: We made shats
v BST: we didnt make shats
v CHR: we made shats
v ATL: we didnt make shats
@ LAL: we didnt make shats
@ DEN: we didnt make shats
@ UTH: we didnt make shats
v POR: we didnt make shats
@ CLV: we didnt make shats
Arse, don’t have time to dig it out, but I will later in the week. I was hoping and praying to match up against Detroit last year and avoid Orlando. Nobody can say what would have happened against the Pistons, but we sure know what happened against the Magic…and again yesterday.
It’s safe to say …… EVERYBODY wants an upgrade on the 2 & 3 positions. What worries me – in our attempt to camouflage that weakness – is that we end up messing with our 4/5 combination. Even as AB gets his confidence back, I get the feeling we’re throwing him back into last year’s vortex, once again.
As for BC, he’s on the 2 year plan. Or at least, the 1 & ½ year plan (ie. Trade deadline 2010). Until that time comes around, he’ll keep treading right where he is.
If he commits to acquiring a SF in the near future, he not only pays an over-inflated price (re. luxury tax – 1 million loses you 6), but it might just be for someone who only marginally improves on our 3 spot. If BC juices the payroll even higher, the cost decelerates (ie. luxury tax income loss is the same hit), but now we have to worry about the long term goal – which appears to be 2010-2011 season.
Badass, ok,(I’d have to look at those numbers) it would stand to reason some attendance would go down. But do you think they were ever in a situation where the franchise might fold? And agree to disagree regarding their primary interest.
Arse, would the record with your predictions, satisfy your expectations and would you call that significant improvement?
Dino, I agree. I just don’t think MLSE sees it that way. Perhaps the profit margin estimate with deeper runs and chips in not big enough for them to bother. I think the Celtics didn’t even break even for winning last year.
So, pakmacman.. we should be happy they are not worse, but not expect them to be better? Why?
Flux,
Mix in an 81 cent dollar (with NBA payroll in US bucks), add a deteriorating economy, and there goes any motivation MLSE might have.
Badass, i just looked at those numbers…you would call that tuning out?
Flux, I agree with you that their primary interest is making money. But in the Raptors’ case, making money goes hand and hand with winning. It’s not a one-and-done Maple Leaf scenario. And I don’t think they were about to fold, but if they didn’t hire BC and if Bosh failed to re-sign, I think they were headed in that direction.
Very good comments back to back Rapthoseleafs, forgot about the exchange rate. And for BC selling good US players the Canadian Tax Code is another challenge, so I dunno who he gets up here besides marginal dudes.Heck, at this point his favourite pets the Euros will be opting to stay. The thing is too, is his whole plan is 2010, can this team do enough by then to convince CB4 to stay? Did anyone catch him walking off the court last night? Depressed doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Badass, good call. I’ll agree to that, I’m still pretty sure that the franchise would never be in a threat to fold tho, but again, I totally see what you are saying.
Flux,
I absolutely believe we should expect them to be better, and get better, but its very difficult to elevate a players performance to standards that are not attainable. To expect Jamario Moon, a 28 year old sophomore to be a starting 3 in the NBA is just crazy! To think that a 21 year old Italian kid who is on the other side of the world trying to adjust to the NBA is not going to have growing pains is insane! As much as you may not want to believe it, these guys are just like any of us… They’re just a little taller and more athletic than some… but they are not superhuman machines… they are people. Which is why I believe that, like it or not, Smitch does a good job of relating to players.
Look at Mike Dunleavy, or PJ Carlesimo. Are they better x’s and o’s guys than Sam? Most likely… But their teams are 1-10. I agree with Yertu’s last post (and there is not too many times i can say that over the last week :) but coaches tend to get hammered when teams struggle, but I think it is important to look at the players performance as well.
I don’t think we as Raps fans, should expect this team to be an upper echelon team in this league with the roster we have. If you want to watch a team that has a chance of winning, watch the Lakers or Celtics. But I prefer to watch this team, because I think 3 or 4 years from now when CB4 is a legit MVP candidate I’ll be able to say that I watched him improve every year that he was in the league… not because he had the best coaches or teammates, but because he had the skill and the work ethic to take his game to new heights. It comes down to the individual, which is why I don’t believe you can point the finger at someone else (aka SMitch) when players don’t perform. Maybe they’re just not as good as the players they’re playing against… on any given night. I just hope 3-4 years from now CB4 is still here…
So Flux, I don’t think that we should not expect them to be better… I think our expectations of them should be a little more reasonable…
I saw that. I take back what I said about a week or so ago. he really is a great person and player. I was wrong
But if we knew that Bosh and is walking, If Brian had some kinda inside scoop and knew for certain Bosh wants a fresh start somewhere else, who can we get for him? BS already let too many players walk Ill be damned if we let a superstar walk and get nothing in return. Im talking 2 up and coming stars that could be had that we can add to Calderon and Bargnani maybe
Pakmacman, I agree with you more then you think. If you’ve read my comments over time.. you’d see we agree – a lot.
Some here will tell you, I am in the Moon give him some time camp, but you are probably right, to expect him to get tremendously better is unreasonable. I have been defending AB for a long time and begging people to be patient, with you there. He’s 23 (btw) now, and the clock is ticking so some criticism may be allowed.
Believe me, I am the last one to blast the coach, and I put it “all” on the players 1st.
I agree, I don’t think this team is “legit” yet, not even close, but it has been sold as such and I now blast them for it. I hold people to their word and I was “promised” results. Issues would be addressed, results would show. I cannot find the quote, but BC said he would build a contender in 4 years.
I do have a realistic view of what they can do, trust me.
Btw, you should post more often. The more the merrier, and who know you may win Rap of the day and one of the RR crew gents may buy a cold one at one of their events.
Raptors need someone to energize this offense, with some movement. Theyr descent and excellent on PG and Post positions repsectively but its amazing I repeat absolutely amazing how this year veteran wings and 2-guards lost confidence and play like shit with no fire (AP, Bargnani, Kapono, Moon, Graham, Humphries)-no exception.
Been following Raptors for 3-4 seasons now, and this year more closely because of my compadre Roko on the team but when Arsenalist says: “Our entire second half offense consisted of either giving it to Bosh and letting him do his thing or having Roko or Will waste 16 seconds off the clock by dribbling pointlessly and either throwing up a low-percentage jumper or passing it out to a wing player who really didn’t want the ball because he had no idea what to do with it.
“Ukic used Bosh as the screener but CB4 didn’t even bother following through with the play and just waited for Ukic to give him the ball back so he could do his thing.”
..In my opinion, you can easily insert Calderon instead of Roko or Will. That is Raptors style of play designed by Mitchell (at least for the last 2 years).
what else…yup I’m pretty biased (Croatian) but I find that Roko played ok for his 13-14 mins and actually made something happen; team cut 15 pt magic lead to 6 -end of 3rd…plus that giveaway with bosh worked as CB4 was shooting lights out on that nite.
I wish tonight vs Miami (if Jose dont play) Sam switches the rookies and plays Roko more minutes as its obvious dat Solomon has a stage fright.
Flux,
Athletes actually get special tax breaks in Canada based on a shortened working life, and the effective tax rate for them is not that bad. Like a guy making $12MM a year needs a break!
I really disagree that we only get marginal guys wanting to play here. I don’t know what empirical evidence there is to support that. I think a lot of guys who have left over the years have had specific issues, either personal or related to the their roles. Some of it may have to do with the Canada vs. USA, but I really think that is fairly marginal, not that I have any evidence to support my views either though.
DG, not that you’d lie to me, but is that for real? Thanks for the info!
Yet, with the break, there is still an advantage(s) of playing over there tho, no? And you still get more bang for your buck over there, I think. I live close to the border and last week I filled up (with xchange and everything) for 62 cents a liter over there while here it was 80something cents. Other items as well.
About playing here: it def. seems like we are losing (from drafting or whatever) more guys then keeping them or bringing them in (beside the draft). And if they do come here, it seems they are the end of their careers. Just look at the list of players we have had and see the average time they have stayed.
I say If Colangelo deals he waits for the December 15th deadline for newly signed contracts to become tradeable (gives him more options with Adams and Soloman etc) but in his true style he wont go for the obvious targets. Seriously, name the last trade or signing Colangelo made that was forseen more than a few days prior to the agreement… I still say get Battier!
MoneyCarlos – kako si?
Edgar, you seen anyone taking Adams and Soloman?
I personally would not like to see Battier or any other nice guy role model.
What this team needs is a baller.
Battier is the original younger version of anthony Parker – meaning they have someone to guard every star instead of poor arthritic Anthony Parker… Its an idea and the money and situations leave the possibility open…
plus he’s the kind of guy BC would like – I’m trying to predict the future not play fantasy sports…
Solid player, can hit shots in the clutch..I reeealy don’t see the Rockets giving him up.
100? three in a row?
OK, everyone..enjoy the game and let’s spiritually hold each other hands in the chat tonight while singing Kumbaya and praying for a Raptors win. And I mean a smackdown.. like say 25 point win. We are due an inspiring- nothing goes wrong, everyone is happy afterward and is an all star win.
LET’S GO RAPTORS *thunder stix* LET’S GO RAPTORS!!
flux – agree, can’t see them moving battier; even w/ artest joining them, it gives them a valuable vet coming off the bench.
as for the raps…i’ve given up hoping they deal for a 2/3, i’m resigned to this team as is. i hate feeling that they’re content with the status quo, but it’s hard to think otherwise.
flux – your optimism knows no bounds. kumba-my-fucking-ass is right, they need to layeth the smacketh downeth. which, of course, means they won’t. i feel a predictably sluggish start, with mini-runs throughout to keep them close, and another example of porous perimeter D.
any word on jose? like i said earlier, i hope he sits unless he’s 100%. sacrifice a few games early to ensure it gets better.
Flux I like your thinking – 30 point blowout – maybe a few techs – goaltending when necessary – no helping nobody up – and NO LAYUPS!
I dont know about everyone’s man-crush on Harrington – I’d rather salary dump Joey and a second rounder and sign Bonzi Wells than him. Atleast he’s show at some point in his career that he is an above average starter…
wow 105 comments. The Republic is doing well. Any live chat tonight?
There will be blood..er..I mean chat.