A long time ago, I used to sign my forum/newsgroup posts with “RFFL” which stood for Raptors Fan For Life, something I stole after seeing Mark Cuban’s license plate (MFFL). A few years ago, after being embarrassed by the actions of “fans”, basically doing whatever the media told them to do (Vince Carter? Boooo…Antonio Davis wanting an education for his children? Booo…No pizza after a blowout win? Booo…) I changed it to “RSFL” where the S stood for Supporter, a level above fan in (real) football. While the Raptors have never had a supporters group (something we will be attempting to start here at Raptors Republic and something the TFC have in spades), a group of fellow season ticket holders shared the same beliefs, so we were a small but happy group. We were euphoric at every win and frustrated by every loss. That frustration was tempered, though, if the effort was there. We avoided mainstream media like the plague, despising how much the hockey team in Anaheim was getting more local press than our own NBA team. We turned to various blogs, USENET, and stole DirecTv feeds in order to get our basketball fix.
One thing that has been abundantly clear is that the Raptor fanbase is a vocal bunch. In the old Usenet days, we were really only outshone by the Lakers newsgroup and the Bulls during the Jordan years. Same can be said for the activity on RealGM. With large numbers comes disagreement and division, but also it’s a great microcosm for what I personally find so funny. The team goes 3-0 and the team is touted as an elite team on its path to a conference final, then they lose 2 and it’s time to fire the coach, look at re-jigging their defensive schemes and cutting down their rotations even more. Love and panic……it could be a theme for Toronto sports fans across the board.
Those of you that have followed me over the past few years at www.altraps.com, and even those that have done so just these past few weeks at RR, know that I think Colangelo has taken this team in the wrong direction. I don’t mean this just from the on-court level either. Since Bryan took over, the in-game entertainment has been getting worse, season ticket holders were paying the FOURTH HIGHEST in the NBA (you could see Kobe in LA for cheaper in most seats), there were many in-house changes in different departments on the basketball side of MLSE, and many season ticket holder perks were taken away or depleted. Personally, I had been a season ticket holder since day one and only missed one home game until the end of last year. I had finally had enough, cancelled my tickets and wrote this.
Reading Sam’s comment #26 on this post made this feeling come rushing back. I remember asking people who were “fans” to come to a game with me and the first question was “who are they playing?”. Why ask? Thought you were a fan? If you were a fan, why not go and see them play, say, Charlotte in their first year? You should be going to support your home team, no? All that passion you see during the playoffs…where is it during the regular season? It’s alarming to me the number of Raptor fans who live in the GTA and go to no or just a couple of games. Price can’t be a factor, since you can buy cheap tickets upstairs. Even if you live out of town, why do our viewing numbers consistently come in danger of being outdrawn by darts? Why doesn’t this team have the draw that it should? Why are people considering cancelling their tickets? Are they maybe mirroring the effort on the court and by management? They play and manage like they don’t care, so why should we?
The power of the fan is strong, if harnessed. The power of the supporter, though, is intense. Don’t believe the numbers the team is feeding you when it comes to renewals. If they had 12,000 season seats sold, you wouldn’t see both ends of the court half empty consistently from game to game, as well as 4 sections in the upper level. Next time you go to a mediocre-opponent game, take a look. If it was season ticket holders not showing up, you would see just pairs or fours of empty seats, not rows upon rows. If Colangelo hadn’t let some of the group sales department go, maybe they could be filling those up.
Maybe the time has come to ask yourself: fan or supporter? How much do you love this team and want to see it succeed? Do you think the moves he has made since being here have put this team on the road to consistency? Are you willing to pay to see the Raptors or are you paying to see the opponent? How best to get that message across to BC and the board? Was it not said that BC would have complete and utter control over moves when he came here? If so, why continue, as a fan, to blame the MLSE board? Are those seats you are sitting in worth the price? Is this team indeed better than the Spurs and the Lakers?
Passion is a funny thing. It’s why you are here on our site. It’s why you can’t stand that other guys opinion. It’s why you want so badly to say that you were at “that” game when “that” happened. But it also makes you question HD scoreboards and a club restaurant being renovated twice in two years. What happened to the plethora of giveaway nights? If the Dance Pak was deemed one of the best in the league four years ago, why are they barely on the court, instead replaced by silly games that are sponsored by big Raptors sponsors?
I still consider myself an ardent supporter of this ball club. It’s why I think 2 or 3 pieces to fill up more holes would have been better than one big piece. I want what are glaring weaknesses addressed. I want another banner, but one with even greater importance. If it takes putting a scare in the coffers of this franchise, then I will, and did, do it. I will not buy any merchandise or tickets until I see or hear a plan to make this franchise a consistent contender. I’d love to open a season with little to no question marks, but with hope and pride.
I am a supporter, not a fan.
70 Raps
ahmen
“know that I think Colangelo has taken this team in the wrong direction.”
I will still continue reading even after that stupid statement. I think two things
1)you have a very short memory and forget where we were prior to BC
2)your expectations are unreasonable
tinman – it’s all relative, isn’t it? sure, where the team is now vs. where it was when BC took over is substantially better. the question, i believe, is that shouldn’t the team be even further along, all things considered?
Man, I don’t know if NOT going to Raptor games means anything. I mean, I’m stuck in Vancouver and only get to see them once a year when they go to Seattle (damn it all to hell!).
And I have to disagree with this statement:
“I’d love to open a season with little to no question marks, but with hope and pride”
Half the fun of professional sports is dreaming and playing at GM, you know? I don’t mind having a team like the Raps, a team that is good enough to win some games now, but still needs some work. I like that every game is both loseable and winnable, puts me on the edge of my seat. I like that some players can be frustratingly good one game and terrible the next, that way I can “be” them in NBA ‘09 and pretend like they’re really good (I’m talking about Bargs here). I couldn’t wait for this season to start, regardless of the holes in the line-up.
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re: the question, i believe, is that shouldn’t the team be even further along, all things considered?
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Exactly.
Good post. There’s a lot in there. One thing that I suspect a lot of people on this board at least can agree on is what you say about the in-game experience.
I’ll admit to being a bandwagon jumper. I lost interest to a fair degree when the Carter fiasco went down and then became a fan again in ‘06-’07 and started going to games when I could. Each year I’ve put more money into tickets.
I don’t know what it’s like in Boston or Detroit, but the barrage of crap music and commentary coupled with the bland marketing of the team detracts from the experience of going to games. Oh, and so does the cost once you compare with other, better teams. A good chunk of the blame for that goes to the basketball folks at MLSE. Stop treating us like Florida Panthers fans in the first season. A decent number of us have played basketball and watched it most of our lives. That’s why we’re at a basketball game. And it’s folks like that who are going to stick with a team more than most.
It would also be nice if there was an effort to tie the city and the team together. The great thing about the ‘06-’07 team was that it did well and it did well with a team that coincidentally reflected the city a bit – a multi-cultural team that came together (hokey but it worked for me). When you go to the ACC you could be in Houston for all you know. They’ve got to let some of Toronto come through during the games.
And then there are the blackberry folk and the idiots who won’t cheer. This one is on MLSE too indirectly. Because Leafs tickets are tied to Raptors tickets there are a bunch of rich folks who aren’t very interested in the team killing the lower bowl a lot of nights. MLSE won’t give up the cash the tie-in between Leafs season tickets and Raptors’ tickets gives them but they could at least try to bring some of the upper bowl down.
There’s got to be a way to get the passion, fractious though it is, on a site like this or Raptors HQ into the ACC on a regular basis. If Raptors management were smart they’d be trying to create a link between an independent fan community and the team in order to sweep up the more casual fans in the enthusiasm. That approach seems to have worked for TFC.
And now to ponder whether I still want my tickets. I’m a bit embarrassed by that post #26 but I doubt I’m the only one who’s already running hot and cold on this team, 6 games into the season. Not even sure if today’s win gets me to lukewarm, well except for Bosh – what a fucking beast he may become. What a fucking waste he may become on this team.
Do you wanna know what really hurt the Raps and everyone seems to of forgotten. Garbo hurting his ankle. There was the small forward we are all missing. Not BC’s fault he broke his ankle.
How far along should we be? You take away the trade(gift) of KG to the Celtics and we are fighting for the EC title. Not BC’’s fault.
What has BC done?
He turned Charlie V into Jermaine O’Neal.With 22 million coming off during a great free agent season.
Raphael Arrujo into Kris Humphries.
Brought AP back from the desert to show he can contribute to a winning organization in the NBA.
Found Jamario Moon.
Made it attractive enough for CB4 to sign a 4 year deal.
All this with really not much to begin with.
About the only thing you can question about BC was taking Bargnani first overall in a draft where everyone also seems to forget had no consensus #1. After his rookie season not many people were questioning it. Yes sophomore season was disappointing but being asked to change his game, play 2/3 of the year battling a sinus problem, and losing a team-mate like Garbo made things tougher. Once again, not annointing Andreas anything but his start this season has been nothing but promising.
Will refer you back to my second point on post # 2 – you’re expectations are unreasonable. Our goal this year is a first round playoff victory – not a championship(hate to tell you). Anything else is gravy.
Much too easy to sit on your coach and play Monday morning quarterback.
Whoops – meant sit on your couch. Wouldn’t want you all sitting on Sam.
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re: All this with really not much to begin with.
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1. There was a lot to begin with in Feb/2006.
2. Then the Raptors won the Draft Lottery in a year which included NBA talents like Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge and Tyrus Thomas.
It’s not worth it though to take the time and re-hash the entire series of questionable moves which have happened since then.
———–
Instead, moving forward from here, this season …
Given what Sam likes about the current roster of players, Raps should now be playing with the following rotation:
1st Unit
1 Calderon
2 Parker
3 Moon
4 Hump [Big #3]
5 Bosh [Big #1]
—————
2nd Unit
1 Solomon
2 Kapono
3 Graham
4 Bargnani [Big #2]
5 O’Neal [Big #4]
—————
CLOSERS
1 Calderon
2 Parker
3 Moon
4 Bargnani
5 Bosh
As long as there are no major injuries that’s a rotation which should be in the playoff hunt for the balance of the season.
Fighting for the EC title??
Wait, so we were a .500 team last year. Were all our games against the Celtics, or the four other teams that placed above us? That one trade made us 6 games worse than the previous year? Not mathematically possible, really.
Not much to begin with my ass. Again, he had cap room and a first overall pick which he probably could have used to move down, save even more money and still get Bargs. If he was a great GM.
To listen to BC, Garbo would never play ball again. Must have been his twin playing in the Olympics, huh? Why buy him out? If he could play, why not move him? Oh, right..we had Maceo Baston, another fantastic free agent pickup.
What exactly were my expectations? I can say this: to be entertained and enjoy my night out and watch a team that could at least say they left it out on the floor. Period. Say what you want about what BC inherited, but I remember a team that went on a winning streak without Vince to get into the playoffs. I remember a team that were given no chance, but took the pistons to game five and lost on the final shot. I remember an energy so strong during a double overtime vs the Kings. I remember watching AD try so hard to beat his former team that it might still be the second loudest game in ACC history, next to Game 6 vs Philly. I remember taking people for their first ever basketball games and coming away knowing they would be back because of the polar opposite of what it was like to go to a Leafs game.
People can blame MLSE all they want, but the board was still around for Grunwald and Babcock. Colangelo has been given more power than either of them ever had, so he should be wielding it as necessary.
Final straw? Colangelo at a season ticket holders meet & greet, answering a question about lack of defense by saying his goal was to outscore everybody. No need to address the D if we could put points on the board. Nice.
Way I look at it is that we are 3 years in to his reign, and, yes, two years from now we will have some money. Some will need to be used to re-sign Bosh and some will be used to bring new people in. The excuse then could be “well, new people need time to gel”. Again.
well said brother.
Actually, as much as you’ll take heat for that, Khandor, O’Neal off the bench is no different than, say, the fourth quarter for most games this season.
Also been alarming to see how well we play without him on the court.
AltRaps,
As you know already, bro … Heat is not something of which I’m afraid.
i.e. 110 degrees, in the shade, and now we’re talking my kind of weather. : )
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Were you actually in attendance at the meeting when these words were spoken by Bryan Colangelo.
If so, thanks for sharing that specific information with us.
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re: Final straw? Colangelo at a season ticket holders meet & greet, answering a question about lack of defense by saying his goal was to outscore everybody. No need to address the D if we could put points on the board. Nice.
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Sorry, AltRaps … forgot to include the quote I was referring to in the first place. : )
Dems ‘the words’ I was citing in the previous comment.
Absolutely, sir. Wine and cheese in the practice facility before a game. It was brilliant. As soon as I heard some of his glib answers and remarks, I found myself daydreaming about what I would do with the $10,000 I would be saving in ticket money moving forward.
I really like your underlying idea for the article. That the Raps should have supporters. Raps fans come with expectations of being entertained. Supporters understand that they are a part of the team. Toronto FC has great support. It would be cool if this happened here and and now. We don’t need a city or media that completely and consistently badgers the team for not being more entertaining. We should be telling them that we will be better fans. I am ready to take some responsibility off the shoulders of the players.
And you have come to this conclusion 6 games into the year. Tell me have you given up on this team. Would you of predicted winning 4 of first 6? Without really hitting our stride. What happened to “lets give this team 15-20 games to get used to each other.
Khandor
I will repeat, there was no consensus # 1 pick – saying “we should of taken player X instead” after the fact is childish. Judging by the start of this season, Bargnani is holding his own with his draft class.
Live in the now, man.
This may be obvious, but I think the age of your “fan” may come into play here. And that trickles down to everything else – basketball knowledge, business sense, knowledge of how the NBA works, knowledge of other teas, and probably more importantly assessment of various talent in the NBA including their strengths and weakness.
If you are 16 and started following the Raps (and NBA) when you were 8 (in 2000), I think it would be fair to say that you think this team is contender and currently in much better shape then ever before. If you are, say, AltRaps… you are at a much different place.
That may be how or why all the different opinions vary across the board and therefore the expectations. Jord is a perfect example. I could not disagree with this any more then already do, on the other hand 10 years ago, this is where I was at. And Tinman is telling you what the goal of this team is. I mean, didn’t you get the memo?
It just doesn’t matter how accurate your assessment of the current state of affairs may be or how well it may be backed up with your arguments, some yo-yo will get on here, call you a complete moron and say the Raps are the greatest team in the history of the NBA.
Also, like was said – everyone has their own idea on how a team should be run and where the priorities lie. All the while they believe their plan is foolproof and if only they were given the chance to run this team, they would should you how things need to be done and the LOBTs would be piling up at the ACC. In the meantime, the can’t manage their daily schedule or life, let alone an entire organization.
Well said.
And whether or not you’re a fan or supporter I think you may agree with this: it actually pisses me off to see Raptor “fans” sitting courtside, in their suits (and probably got the tickets for free), not ONCE cheering during the game. Meanwhile, individuals spend their savings to sit in the 300s and are wild throughout the game.
I have MANY friends who have spent money to sit in the lower bowls and were actually told to SIT DOWN or BE QUIET while cheering during the game. GIVE YOUR TICKETS TO PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CARE, PLEASE.
Very true; I think as they gain more and more corporate respect in Toronto, they’re threatening to become the Leafs; a team that’s fun to watch but couldn’t care less about individual fans, instead fronting it’s corporate sponsors at seemingly every turn. Thankfully, they’re not there yet.
A note to the post above: I cannot believe people get hushed at a basketball game. That is crazy.
Self awareness (assessment) is a MF… and the majority of people lack in that area, heavily, while seriously over estimating their actual judgment and abilities regarding all topics/areas in life.
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re: Live in the now, man.
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If you want to live in the ‘now’ then don’t be posting a list of Colangelo moves from years gone by.
When you do that …
You open the floor for discussion about the veracity of your interpretation of those moves.
Then you try to follow that up by making a request to live in the ‘now’?
That’s what I call being duplicit.
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re: I will repeat, there was no consensus # 1 pick – saying “we should of taken player X instead” after the fact is childish.
———————–
Childish?
Childish is trying to put words into someone else’s mouth, that that person never said.
Childish is not knowing what is was that someone else suggested the Raptors should be doing with the No. 1 [overall] Pick PRIOR to the 2006 Draft happening in the first place, and then trying to insinuate that because there was no ‘concensus’ selection at that spot, at that time … what a Top Notch GM in the NBA should have done was to use that Pick on a player like Andrea Bargnani.
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Of course … I should expect no less from someone who lies about the comments of another contributor to this blog. Should I? : )
re: Much too easy to sit on your coach [sic] and …
… drink the KOOL-AID put out by MLSE, in a deaf, dumb & blind state.
Who really cares whether or not there are “suits” in the first few rows that don’t give a shit about the Raps. It doesn’t matter at all! Just enjoy the games and have fun. Let the “fans” have some fun while the good times last and as “supporters” just be happy that the Raps don’t suck and actually can draw some “fans”. If that makes sense.
Man, I’m pleased that the Raps are 4-2 and not 0-6. The team isn’t where it could be, but enjoy the wins while you can! Not too long ago things were much, much worse. Although I miss Hoffa. He was fun.
Jord’s right, it *really* doesn’t matter. But Sam also hit that MLSE Leafs/Raps ticket combo thing right on the head. As big as Raps fan/supporter that I am, I have actually passed on lower bowl seats before to sit up in the 300-level. The game experience is night and day. It really is. That’s just wrong on so many, ahem, levels.
And while I’m sure “big business” will never let this fly, I’ve suggested to some the idea of moving fans down to the lower bowl at half. The logistics and stipulations would have to be worked out, but I don’t see any reason why empty lower bowl seats couldn’t be reassigned — via text messages — to upper bowl season ticket holders.
A full, loud, rambunctious lower level could only benefit the home court team.
(By the way, lovin’ the Republic, gentlemen. Keep up the great work.)
Skeets,
Welcome aboard, my Man!
Keep On Truck’n : )
I agree with the points Altraps makes. I am not lucky enough to have gone to as many games as you have, but I generally go to 1-2 games a year, usually in the upper bowl. I remember the days where the sprite zone was 8-10 dollars and everybody was just crazy; screaming and cheering. My main highlight was going to a playoff game against the nets last year. The passion showed by the fans/supporters was unbelivable and was honestly one of the best experiences I have ever had.
The point I want to make with this post is that I am afraid that what is happening to the Raps is what happened to the Leafs in terms of atmosphere. I understand that it is premature to think that the mood will go quiet soon, but there are some pretty noticable parrallels. The team has not won a championship and is almost certain not going to win one this year. Ticket prices have been rising tremondous over the past few years (as Altraps showed), pricing out the long-time fan season ticket holders and the fan who can go to the occasional game. This will effectively kill the mood of the stadium and the raps will lose that ’sixth man’ that the attendence usually provided. I know casual fans usually attend games primarily based on oppenents, but they also want to experience the mood created at the stadium.
I think it would truly be sad if watching professional the raps live is catered primarily towards the rich and suits, and the fans and supporters who really bleed the team’s colour rarely, if ever, get to watch their team play at the arena.
This is BC’s third full season as our GM.
Let’s quickly analyze the actions, results & general fan/league reaction level of each of them:
2006/07
Actions:
-Complete roster overhaul (9 new players) while maintaining cap flexibility for 2009-10.
Results:
-Team ties its record win total
-Makes first play-off appearance in 5 years, first with home-court advantages. (But loses 4-2 in first round to veteran Nets team).
-Garbo’s severe injury forces him to sit in playoffs
-Coach Mitchell wins COY award; Bargs places 2nd in ROY award.
General Reaction:
-Surprise by overachieving results; future expectations raised.
2007/08
Actions:
-Signs “Kaponomatic” for full MLE.
-With little cap flexibility, acquires marginal bench/practice players (Delfino Baston, Moon).
-Allows MoP to walk.
Results:
-Garbo’s injury forces him to miss nearly the whole season and playoffs (due to playing Olympic qualifier during offseason).
-PG controversy negatively affected team chemistry.
-Team underachieves, finishes with 0.500 record.
-Makes playoffs for second seasons. (But loses 4-1 to overmatched Orlando team with D12).
General Reaction:
-Signing for Moon (fringe player) proves invaluable
-Garbo’s injury (due to off-season decision) blamed for poor regular season record & poor playoff results.
-Poor interior defence reason for playoff loss.
2008/09
Actions:
-Resolves PG controversy & attempts to improve interior defence by trading TJ for JO.
-Buys-out Garbo to avoid prolonging off-court media drama.
-Little cap flexibility, signs marginal bench/practice players (Solomon, Adams, Ukic, Jawai)
Results:
-3 straight wins to start season, team currently 4-2.
General Reaction:
-Roster still a work in progress (Wing position severely deficient)
Overall Personal Opinion:
-BC has done all he can to shape and improve roster over past 3 off-seasons, given budgetary limitations.
-Team’s poor result last season due to events beyond control (injuries to Garbo & TJ)
-Team may be 1 top-tier wing player away from immediately competing for EC title.
-Team is well positioned to re-sign Bosh and continue re-tooling to soon become perennial title contenders (ex. Spurs, Pistons)
-This year’s playoff run is critical to demonstrating to fan/league that the team is in fact moving forward, as opposed to standing still.
BC’s Overall Grade: B+
-He’s been responsive and proactive in taking calculated risks in putting the best possible roster, while always maintaining significant cap flexibility to compete with other top teams to re-sign Bosh and sign possible superstar FA to build around our current solid foundation (all-star PG & superstar PF) in 2 years.
-Is expected to maintain same off-season behavior based on assessment of end-of-season results.
Fan or Supporter:
-I’m a hardcore “Fan-addict” who’s happy (but not satisfied) with the overall results and the direction the team is headed.
-Supports Coach Mitchell for ALWAYS keeping the team focused on playing hard and up to it’s roster potential.
-Supports BC for taking calculated risks in doing everything he possibly can to achieve the franchise’s long-term goal: To build a perennial title contending team/organization.
BTW, I am also a proud season ticket holder (upper bowl), who’s happy sharing the total cost/number of games with 2 other people.
I still cant believe this could have been our team. When all is said and done
TJ Ford/Calderon
Brandon Roy/Morris Peterson
Rudy Gay
Bosh
Roy Hibbert /Rasho Nesterovich
Coach: Stan Van Gundy needed a Job when Sam won COTY. As was Rick Adelman.
Role players who were a waste of cap. Moon, Graham, Kapono, Humphries, Delfino, Anthony parker Garbajosa, Dixon, Fred Jones, every player he has brought in he got rid of a year later. No continuity with this team.That’s what 18 mill in contracts there.
Sign Pau Gasol ,JR smith, Magette, Marion, Maxiell, Camby. Hes made so many fucking mistakes and has set this franchise back a few years.
Do people think Joe Dumars would assemble a team like the current Raptors? NO. Not one player except Bosh, Calderon ..which weren’t Calangelo picks would make that team.And that’s not Hyberbole
BTW 2010 we’ll be back to where we started. Trying to rebuilt with Calderon and Bosh, just like in 2006. Name 1 player, up and coming star he has brought so far? Bosh is going to leave. The only players that will come here will be on there last legs. Also Bryan will sign players from Europe to fill the cap. With MLSE incharge I cant see any Toronto team winning the Chip until ownership is replaced/dies of cancer
How was BC in a position to draft Rudy Gay and Brandon Roy?
To pick up on something Fluxland posted, maybe the young ones are all the tribal honking fans that frustrate you on this and other sites but age of another sort is a part of what kills the lower bowl – and I know because I’m old (and a bit of suit too). Us older, career and family types aren’t going to bring home-painted signs and drunkenly carry on, but if fans were treated as a bit more knowledgeable and there was some effort to bring some enthusiasm down from the lower bowl we’d get swept up too. No longer an issue for me since the tickets I’m wondering about trying to return are upstairs.
And what’s the over/under for posts on the “Has BC done a good job” article you guys will no doubt post around mid-season? 400? My quick take, not as good as he seemed at the beginning but not as bad as he seems right now. He had a plan that went off the rails in a completely unforeseeable way and now he’s trying to figure out a new one. I’d feel better about him if I had confidence he cared about supporters rather than corporate seat-fillers.
Raptors Kool-Aid Drinkers,
My first comment in this thread said,
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re: the question, i believe, is that shouldn’t the team be even further along, all things considered?
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Exactly.
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… because it doesn’t matter to me who it is that says something intelligent, or not.
‘Intelligence’, per se, can come in all manner of ways, shapes, sizes or forms. What matters most is … whether it’s intelligent, or not.
My second comment in this thread then said,
===============================
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re: All this with really not much to begin with.
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1. There was a lot to begin with in Feb/2006.
2. Then the Raptors won the Draft Lottery in a year which included NBA talents like Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge and Tyrus Thomas.
It’s not worth it though to take the time and re-hash the entire series of questionable moves which have happened since then.
———–
Instead, moving forward from here, this season …
Given what Sam likes about the current roster of players, Raps should now be playing with the following rotation:
1st Unit
1 Calderon
2 Parker
3 Moon
4 Hump [Big #3]
5 Bosh [Big #1]
—————
2nd Unit
1 Solomon
2 Kapono
3 Graham
4 Bargnani [Big #2]
5 O’Neal [Big #4]
—————
CLOSERS
1 Calderon
2 Parker
3 Moon
4 Bargnani
5 Bosh
As long as there are no major injuries that’s a rotation which should be in the playoff hunt for the balance of the season.
===============================
… because I do not appreciate reading mendacity, when it concerns my favourite NBA team … and,
1. Sometimes it’s important to counter ‘gross’ mistakes in perception that others seem to have about the Raptors franchise, i.e. Where it’s been; where it is; and, where it looks like it might be headed, down-the-road … so that the whole of a subject is outlined, and others can then have the opportunity to read about it for themselves and can form their own opinions about it, based upon a spectrum of ideas, facts and interpretations.
while, simultaneously
2. Giving them a chance to move ahead, primarily, to focus on the present and the future with this team … which, IMO, would be a productive thing to do, right now … without completely re-hashing a by-gone series of events that are readily interpretable in a number of different ways.
However … when certain individuals here seem not to be interested in doing this … i.e. moving forward from here,
then,
You know what?
I’m compelled to drop a link in this location …
20/20 vision of the Toronto Raptors
and, then, just leave it like THAT … for those who might want to re-trace those specific steps again.
[personally, I have little interest in doing that.]
There is a supporter group for the Raps and the Toronto FC called the ULTRAS. We attend games, make banners and flags, and come up with songs. The problem with all of that is that ACC and the NBA vow to provide a family/corporate environment which means there are strict rules as to what you can/can’t do.
I come from Eastern Europe where every single city has a support group that attends every single sport and supports the city’s teams by singing, banner making, and tifo showcasing. It’s a way of life for people.
If I told you in ‘06 that this team would be a top 10 team in the league in 2008 with a superstar forward, a 29 year old six time all-star who is one of the best shot blockers in the game at center, a big coming off the bench with huge upside and a star-like skillset, an all-star point guard, three seven(ish) footers who contribute, three of the best three point shooters in the game (possibly 4) with only three players born after 1980 on the entire roster and a huge amount of cap space coming in less than two years would you have seriously told me; “that sucks I expect alot more from this organization”…really? Honestly? WTF?
This is by-far the best shape our organization has been in in the history of our franchise. We have the most skilled and youthful, competitive team we have ever had by-far and we’re one or two steps from being a serious contender. If you absolutely expected to be a championship contender, at that his point, in the evolution of the Raptors (especailly after the shit-storm of VC15 and our certain destiny of becoming Clippers 2.0) then I have to wonder when you took the rose-coloured glasses off and put on a hockey helmet?
Considering the crap we had for management team(s) since we landed this franchise, it seems very, very odd to me that a “supporter” could find so much fault in our current management team (likely one of the top 5, but most definitely top 10 in the business) and the team as it is constructed today. Take another sip of that kool-aid ’cause it seems to a have a distinct smell of a fine wine.
Can you name ten other organizations and rosters you would trade places with right now? Please enlighten and entertain me.
The Raptors road attendance has been dead last the past couple of years. Yeah, even when we were winning! I guess people in the States didnt want to see a 2nd-tier superstar surrounded by a bunch of scrubs and borderline starters.
Just for fun
Lakers
Celtics
Cavs
Jazz
TrailBlazers
Pistons
Hornets
Rockets
Magic
Suns
and for Khandor Spurs
The Raptors road attendance has been dead last the past couple of years. Yeah, even when we were winning! I guess people in the States didnt want to see a 2nd-tier superstar surrounded by a bunch of scrubs and borderline starters. Oh yeah, I’m not just a fan or a supporter, I’m a DIEHARD!
“three of the best three point shooters in the game (possibly 4)” – are you high? Where do I start? Ray Allen, Brent Barry, Bruce Bowen, Peja, Wally, Nash, Kobe.. the only legit guy we have on out team is Kapono and his numbers are suspect as he is the most selective guy I have ever seen. I’ll be damned if he attempts 3 per game for his career.
Interesting post. Are you drawing a line in the sand?
I’m not sure where I stand. I admit that I see all of the flaws of this team. The roster has glaring holes in it that continue to be unfilled. Rather than addressing problems, the team has used misdirection by signing useless players and has-beens. Our bench is nearly non-existent and yet despite only have 8 players, Mitchell still doesn’t have a clue on who should be getting the minutes.
Yes, I’m annoyed by all of this but I have no vested interested in wasting my time worrying about these things. I don’t feel like I’m a part of it like you supporters do. No amount of my complaints, boycotting of games or rants on blogs will make any difference to how the team is handled. Bryan Colangelo is here to stay.
I see how foolish it is to boo Vince Carter, but I do it anyway because it’s fun and it works. We boo, he plays horribly. If only that worked for every opposing player. I like seeing the Raptors win even if they didn’t deserve to. I (gulp) pay to see Raptor games, and who they are playing weighs in heavily in my decision process to decide which game to pay for. When I ask my guest “Did you have fun?” and he/she says “Yes”, I feel like I got my monies’ worth. And it just so happens that they seem to be happier when they have a bobblehead in tow than not.
I wish for all you supporters all the best. I really do. I hope you succeed in your endeavours to make the team better.
Lakers – yes
Celtics – yes but for two years of glory and then what?
Cavs – no thanks. I love Lebron but after him there is very little to look forward too and I believe he is gone in ‘10 (Bosh is far more likely to stay with the Raps than LeCashola stays in Cleveland).
Jazz – yes. Strong roster, strong organization.
TrailBlazers – love the young roster but definitely not sold on the organization. How do you properly develop all the young talent and keep them happy? Would still say yes though.
Pistons – yes.
Hornets – Chris Paul alone makes this a yes.
Rockets – imagine how crazy this roster would make Rap fans? My head says yes my heart says no, no, no!
Magic – Tough one…hard to turn away from Howard (monster) but I don’t believe their management can build a real winner around him. I’d take my chances with BC.
Suns – old, not going to win anything this year and other than Amare and his two knees, who is left in two years with that ownership group running the show? No thanks.
Spurs – love the organization but they are heading for a long decline. No thanks.
FLUX – thanks for throwing this out. It’s a strong list but kinda validates my point. I wouldn’t take any other roster or organization not on this list…so at the very worst we are a top 12 organization and climbing. Would you not have taken that 3 years ago?
Flux, c’mon?
Top 3 point shooting percentage in 2007-08 (players with enough attempts to qualify):
1 Jason Kapono TOR .483 2007-08
2 Steve Nash PHO .470 2007-08
3 James Jones POR .444 2007-08
4 Peja Stojakovic NOH .441 2007-08
5 Daniel Gibson CLE .440 2007-08
6 Richard Hamilton DET .440 2007-08
7 Anthony Parker TOR .438 2007-08
8 Sasha Vujacic LAL .437 2007-08
9 Matt Carroll CHR .436 2007-08
10 Mike Miller MEM .432 2007-08
11 Jose Calderon TOR .429 2007-08
3 years ago I was told to be looking at contending for the chip by BC. Now i am supposed to eat this fugazzi roster? Are you joking? Same wine tastes different to everyone.. you like this 4$ Wine Rack crap? Buy a case load..don’t expect me to call it primo.
rapTO – i think the point is, time is fluid…you can’t look back to a specific point in time & compare it to what’s going on now, as many things have changed since then. there’s no doubt that what you’re saying is true…in ‘06, many fans/supporters would have given their left nut to be where they were starting the ‘07/’08 season. but ‘all things considered’ comes into play…since then, we’ve had some improvements, and the expectations, obviously, change (read: increase) with those improvements. arriving at the present, is it not reasonable to assume that the raps shouldn’t be further along? i mean, on paper, they seem impressive, but in reality, they still have the same trouble with the better teams they did two years ago, their weaknesses are still weaknesses, and their outlook for end-of-season success has only marginally improved.
maybe we get sucked in by teams that make quick turnarounds and immediately challenge for a title (or win one) in a short period of time (think miami & cleve.), and we want a little taste of that…or at least the comfort that comes with knowing that the raps can compete with anyone, on any given day…as opposed to barely scraping out a road win against an inferior opponent after being outplayed for most of the game, and needing their one true superstar to have a herculian effort (against a diminished frontcourt) to pull out said victory. when games like yesterday’s become easy wins, instead of struggles, then maybe we’ll feel like the team’s on the right track.
Flux – we’ll have to settle on disagreeing. You see a poo-poo platter going into the tank while I’m optomistic about our team and where it’s heading in respect to where we were three years ago.
khan – for shits & giggles, i read your blog that you linked to above. i was confused by this, your last comment:
‘Araujo was a lousy player. Fact is, however, he was still a ccommodity with some value on the trade market, as was evidenced by the acquisition of Kris Humphries. Unlike what many others tend to think, getting Hump back in return for Hoffa was nowhere near a ’steal’ for the Raptors/Colangelo, that’s all.’
if hoffa was a lousy player (no argument – at the time he was dealt, i’d wager that his value on market was pretty f’n low, though), and he was traded for hump, but that trade wasn’t a ’steal’ (meaning hump wasn’t that much better than hoffa…who was lousy, remember), then how do you justify putting hump into the starting lineup at the 4? i mean, from what i gather, in your opinion, they traded a guy who was lousy for someone who should start ahead of both JO & bargs and, as you’ve stated elsewhere, should also be the first option on offense.
i know i’m not very smart, but help me out anyway. either hump is much better than anyone thought & is worthy of starting for the raps, and acquiring him would have to therefore be considered a ’steal’ (since the guy he was acquired for was ‘lousy’), or hump is also lousy (as you seem to be indicating from the comment above, as acquiring him for hoffa wasn’t a ’steal’)…but if that’s the case, why is he in your ideal starting lineup? i’m not sure it can be both – if he’s good enough to start, then the deal to acquire him was a ’steal.’ if the deal’s not a steal, then isn’t he as lousy as hoffa, and doesn’t deserve to start?
of course, i’m sure you’ll let me know how i’m just not seeing things the right way. DAMNIT, i’m so insufferably ignorant!!
Flux,
Other comparable organizations for you to consider on your list …
ATLANTA – Johnson-J, Horford, Smith-J, Williams-M, Law, Jones-S, Pachulia, Morris-R, Evans-M, Murray
CHICAGO – Rose, Thomas, Noah, Deng, Sefolosha, Gordon, Hinrich, Gray, Hughes
DENVER – Melo, Billups, Nene, Martin, Kleiza, Smith-JR
PHILADELPHIA – Young, Speights, Iguodala, Williams-L, Green, Smith-J, Brand, Dalembert, Evans-R
INDIANA – Granger, Dunleavy, Rush-B, Hibbert, Jack, Diener, Ford, Murphy, Daniels
LA CLIPPERS – Davis-B, Thornton, Camby, Gordon, Kaman, Thomas-T, Mobley, Davis-P, Taylor
MEMPHIS – Gay, Mayo, Conley, Gasol, Milicic, Lowry
MIAMI – Wade, Beasley, Marion, Chalmers, Cook, Anthony
MILWAUKEE – Jefferson, Alexander, Mbah A Moute, Bogut, Sessions
MINNESOTA – Foye, Miller, Brewer, Love, Jefferson, Gomes, McCants, Carney, Telfair
NEW JERSEY – Harris, Jianlian, Carter, Lopez-B, CDR, Dooling, Najera, Hayes, Simmons, Williams-S
NEW YORK – Gallinari, Crawford, Lee, Duhon, Robinson, Richardson, Randolph, Curry, Rose-M, Collins, Chandler
OKLAHOMA CITY – Durant, Westbrook, Green, Wilcox, Collison, Petro, Swift, Wilkens
WASHINGTON – Arenas, Jamison, Butler, Young, Blatche, Haywood, Pecherov, Magee [sp?], Stevenson, Daniels, Songaila, McGuire
No, I’d say the word is obtuse more than ignorant.
That list is “flawed”. Are any of those Raps in the top 10 3 point attempts? I bet none are in the top 50. Kapono attempts a 3 pointer every other solar eclipse (and that’s his job). Parker can’t make a 3 pointer when it counts if someone was holding his family hostage (I don’t care how many he makes in the 1st 3 quarters). I’ll give Jose a pass cuz he seem to be shooting better this year, but I don’t trust his clutchness.
The other players on that list are money when it counts (or at the very least more then our players)
Stats lie, my friend. Or don’t tell the whole story. Playoffs, regulars season, opponent in question.. all thing come into play.
* Hump is a better player than Hoffa.
* Hoffa had value as a high draft pick with an ‘expiring’ contract.
* Hump is a solid small Big, in the NBA. Hump is not an all-star.
* The best teams in the NBA do not necessarily ’start’ their 5 ‘best’ players.
* There is considerable ‘value’ in having a bump on a log, who can carry & use his 5 fouls in a NBA game, is 6-9 & 250+, but is also obedient and a darn good teammate while sitting on the bench [e.g. Chuck Nevitt : -)].
* There is considerable ‘value’ in using a small, energetic Big like Hump, in the starting line-up for a high-calibre NBA team, like the Showtime Lakers used Kurt Rambis.
* There is considerable ‘value’ in having a non-myopic brain … that can see things from different vantage points, at once, and is neither obtuse, nor ignorant.
: )
Here’s a pic for you. I’ve been saving it for a few days now …
Voice of Fire
Enjoy!
Khandor, I was considering those.. no doubt. I figured the ones I listed, made for a better argument. Guess I was wrong. This cat is in the “Raptors are the greatest team in the history of the NBA” bunch. Gimme a break! Again, all the things I listed in yesterdays post..talent evaluation, other team evaluation, etc. come into play. Not to mention, dude says yes to half the teams on my list, and is very borderline on the other half, then proceeds to say I made his point… can I really make an argument with those other teams? Something tells me unless if I put a list with every team having Zeke, Jordan, Rodman, Laimbeer and Russell on it, he still would have said: I’ll take the Raps.
——-
An optimist? Yeah you are. Realistic? I don’t think so. But hey who knows? I may be wrong and the win it all the next 10 years straight. I’m wrong about 10 times a day, on average.
As I said before …
I’m a fan of intelligence, regardless the source is.
—————————————
re: is it not reasonable to assume that the raps shouldn’t be further along? i mean, on paper, they seem impressive, but in reality, they still have the same trouble with the better teams they did two years ago, their weaknesses are still weaknesses, and their outlook for end-of-season success has only marginally improved.
maybe we get sucked in by teams that make quick turnarounds and immediately challenge for a title (or win one) in a short period of time (think miami & cleve.), and we want a little taste of that…or at least the comfort that comes with knowing that the raps can compete with anyone, on any given day…as opposed to barely scraping out a road win against an inferior opponent after being outplayed for most of the game, and needing their one true superstar to have a herculian effort (against a diminished frontcourt) to pull out said victory. when games like yesterday’s become easy wins, instead of struggles, then maybe we’ll feel like the team’s on the right track.
—————————————
In my book, those are three [3] highly intelligent sentences. : )
I mean, we beat the Bobcats last night. THE BOB-CATS! (barely) And people are popping bottles on their way to the Finals.
The grass is always greener with another team, eh?
Yertu – I really felt the team would struggle with cohesiveness on both ends of the floor for the first 20 games or more (while incorporating an inexperienced back-up point guard (or two) and a rusty starting center. We really don’t know what we have in front of us at this point; it’s only 6 games into the season and we’re struggling at 4-2! However, I do expect this team to have a solid second half of the season so maybe it’s just our immediate expectations that differ.
Sure looks greener from this side of the fence.
—-
And it took KG and Ray Allen the better part of the season to work on their “cohesiveness” last year right?
Great comparison, Flux. Three veteran future hall of famers on the same team versus the Raps situation, OK, thanks for sharing. Tells me all I need to know about your expectations.
…and when and where did I state the Raps were the “greatest NBA team of all-time”? The point was that we are far better off than we were 3 years ago and certainly building up to a top ten organization in the NBA.
When you start pulling comments completely out of context to demean other posters that brings you down to Khandors level aka Nostro(the most prolific moronic poster on Rap blogs…and I’ve only been reading RR posts for the past two weeks to realize it!).
RR is a great site but frankly some commenter’s completely kill the experience (actually Khandor alone does that and I hate to admit that I’ve likely given in to his likely intentions; leave the RR comments section to him and his bethren, for which I will gladly give in).
khan – ignorant, obtuse, whatever. i thought i had a legit question, the answer to which would help me understand better understand your position with respect to both hump & BC, and while you provided a detailed ‘answer,’ i’m not sure you really answered anything. in one breath, you’re essentially stating that hoffa stunk, and the guy for whom he was traded has enough bball value that he should start & be a serious offensive option on a playoff-calibre team…all while stating that the trade that netted him wasn’t a steal, which apparently validates your point that BC’s been average over the last few years. i can live with one, but not both, viewpoints, and while that inability may be myopic to you, it isn’t to me.
hoffa was dead weight. personally, i’m not so sure hump is any better. i know we disagree, and there are many who feel he could be something special, a valuable rebounder, defender, finisher, etc. i may not agree, but i’ll accept that position. what i simply don’t understand is how, if you feel that highly about hump, you feel the trade that netted him was relatively unimpressive. that BC was able to get anything for hoffa would seem a minor miracle. i guess it’s all about perspective…
at least you didn’t use irregardless…
Khandor, I’ve miscalulated. You are actually the second coming of a very “significant” man in our history…his name is Michel de Nostradamus. You may have heard of him but here is a segment of his wiki entry (pure gold for you I’m sure) that truly captures your blog-persona:
“Most academic sources maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus’s quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus’s quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance.”
…did you write that wiki entry? No seriously, did you?
yertu damkule,
When you ask me a civil question … it makes it easier to respond in-kind. Likewise when you refrain from including either insults or sarcasm.
1. I respect your take on the game.
2. I don’t respect when you lapse into non-civility and/or insults, nor when you attempt to position what I write on-line as being condescending.
There are many different interpretations of Voice of Fire.
Although each is different …
It would also be fair and accurate to say that …
Some are more sound than others … despite what each viewer thinks, and not necessarily from a statistical basis, but … depending on your point of view, and the width, depth and breadth of your knowledge about the specific subject involved.
Just because I know what I happen to like in Art [CARNEY and RODNEY, both] … does not mean that I have the skills and comprehensive background which others might possess, nor the eyes, the ears, the hands, etc., required to assess its authentic ‘value’ accurately.
=================
* Hump is not a great player.
* Neither was Kurt Rambis.
* Getting Hump for Hoffa was not a steal for the Raptors.
* Rambis was used as a starter for some very good Lakers teams.
* Hump, too, could/should be used as a starter by the Raptors, beside CB4.
* If the Raptors had held onto Hoffa, until last season, could they have simply cut him this past off-season and used that money instead to add a player they drafted at the No. 17 [overall] spot, e.g. CDR or Roy Hibbert or Joey Dorsey, etc. [admitting that this is hindsight speculation]?
* Getting a serviceable player Hump in return for Hoffa … who was serviceable, in his own way, given the price-tag that was associated with him, as a former Lottery Pick … was not a coup; it was a nice fair exchange of assets.
What would have been an example of a coup, IMO?
Getting Kendrick Perkins.
- Rodney Carney :-)
Raptoronto,
—————————–
re: I’ve miscalculated.
—————————–
Yes, indeed … you have. :-)
yertu damkule,
‘Irregardless’ is not a word in my vocabulary.
[FWIW ... when you act with civility, as you've done here, you have my sincere respect]
glad to hear it. i’ll try to be civil, but whether you realize it or not, sometimes your responses are condascending. i’m not being uncivil when i point out that you didn’t answer my question…if anything, i’m merely trying to get a better grasp on your methadology.
you can claim the deal wasn’t a coup, and considering what hump’s produced relative to what hoffa produced, it may even be a wash. but i fail to see how you can then contend that hump should be given a significant role in the rotation, something the guy he replaced certainly wasn’t warranted to receive. if you believe that, then doesn’t it stand to reason that the deal was significantly better for the raps than the jazz? i mean, was the few million in cap space the jazz cleared when hoffa came off the books really that valuable.
i’m just trying to figure out how you can be so blah about a trade that rid the raps of hoffa & netted the guy you think should be a significant player on this team.
i agree, hump is not a star. although i don’t think of highly of him as you, i do think he’s significantly more productive & valuable than hoffa. i wish that he could get on the floor more, and that when on the floor, he did the things that the team needs him to do in order for the team to be successful. ditto for graham – i have no personal vendetta against either, if they make the team better, then so be it.
i’m sure i just don’t get it. please, feel free to not explain it again.
Fluxland: “And it took KG and Ray Allen the better part of the season to work on their “cohesiveness” last year right?”
Exactly, sir. Throw in the fact that most deriders of all things Sam talk about the basic plays we run and it’s not like any new additions are flipping through a 100-play document.
I still agree with the 20 game theory, but what happens if things are still disjointed at 40?
they”ll stay that way, that’s what.
This is kind of a tangent, but in relation to the original post:
Why do you seem to blame BC for things like in-game entertainment, video intros and season ticket prices.
Do you honestly think Bryan Colangelo has anything to do with the player introduction song selection? Or that it was his decision to fire MLSE employee’s in charge of sales and marketing? Or that he books the half-time shows?
…those are rhetorical questions by the way.
FLUXLAND Identicon Icon FLUXLAND
Nov 10, 2008 1:14 pm | Permalink
I mean, we beat the Bobcats last night. THE BOB-CATS! (barely) And people are popping bottles on their way to the Finals.
Thank You.
Bosh will go off for 50 points against Sacramento or Oklahoma. Detroit and Boston, ….where did he go?
Last year that 5 game west coast road trip he was injured supposedly. Sitting on the Bench with an armani suit or w.e.
Surprisingly he’s healthy again when the trip is over and were back facing New York Knicks 2 nights later
From sources I heard he was healthy he just chose not to play because he knew we would still loose and wanted to save face I guess.
thank god sam mitchell got fired hey.
i think jay triano is gonna lead this team