Sam Mitchell was out of answers for the HawksYou know it’s garbage time when the entire pub starts sarcastically chanting MVP, MVP as Joey Graham gets soundly rejected off the glass in a 24 point game. It’s one of those moments where you step back and start seeing the humour in these things, sure the atmosphere and the alcohol probably helps, but it doesn’t mean watching our wings try to guard Atlanta’s wasn’t utterly hilarious. When it becomes clear that there’s no way we can stop Marvin Williams, Flip Murray or Joe Johnson doing what they wanted to do and where they want it it to do it, it hardly matters if Bibby’s left open for 5 killer first-half threes. We can talk about the defensive problems we had all night but let’s sum this game up in a stat: scoring from the starting SG and SF spot. Against Detroit it was 49-14 and last night it was 31-8. You can’t win games with that kind of production from key positions. It doesn’t matter how “basketball-wise intelligent” your team is, you’ll get burned.
Once again our wings get owned on defense and don’t provide nearly enough offense to make up for it. To make matters worse we don’t play transition defense and get out-fastbreaked 18-3 (box) which means we’re not getting any easy points and are forced to make our half-court offense click against an Atlanta team which has great wingspan and an ability to disrupt even the best of players. Lack of defense might’ve lost us the game but let’s not forget that aside from that early Kapono outburst our offense was always sputtering and never came close to looking like it could get three consecutive scores. Chris Bosh was the only guy that looked remotely threatening and finished with 26/8 on 8-15 shooting. As you might’ve guessed most of it came through one-on-one play or a jump-shot after running a high pick ‘n roll. Almost any score we got came off of some sort of involvement from Chris Bosh, he’s our only double-team threat and thus it follows that he directly or indirectly generates most of our offense. To compound the offensive problems, Jose Calderon had a bad shooting night going 2-10. He did have 12 assists but when firepower is running low on the team, none of our two big-guns can afford to have bad games.
Atlanta defended us by using man-coverage on everyone except Chris Bosh. We on the other hand had to always be cognizant about helping on Williams, Bibby, and Johnson because their defenders couldn’t check them properly. If all you’re doing on defense is rotating off of doubles you’ll never stop anybody because your positioning will be in shambles. Just like how even the greatest corner-back can’t cover a wide-receiver for more than 12 seconds, asking our rotations to make up for the mess the initial penetration has created is asking too much. My point is that we shouldn’t fall into the trap of blaming late rotations, its the reason why the rotations had to be made that are the problems.
Chris Bosh looked visibly frustrated in this game. When garbage time arrived I caught a couple shots of him on the bench and he looked very dejected, more than he looked at any time last season. When it became clear that he was the only thing going, he tried very hard to win the game on his own but Atlanta’s help on him was always there. After his initial spin move there was always a guy waiting for him and anytime he attacked the rim, somebody stepped over to meet him. The technical he picked up was basically telling his teammates, They’re sending everybody over to help and I’m still managing to score while being fouled every time. Can someone please help me and try to elevate their game so I don’t have to do this alone? Even then he managed to shoot a high percentage and put up solid numbers; impressive game by Bosh who looks to be in mid-season form, unfortunately he’s the only one. Jermaine O’Neal’s scoring numbers were great (17pts, 7-10 FG) and he ended up with three blocks but the rebounding numbers were lacking. It doesn’t matter though, at the rate Moon, Calderon and Parker were getting abused on the perimeter, it wouldn’t have mattered if we had Bill Russel underneath the rim.
The most bizarre thing in this game was how we defended their pick ‘n roll. It was as if we were playing 3-on-5. Atlanta had a layup drill going in the first half whenever they ran the play with Bibby and one of Williams, Smith or Horford. It was almost like we plan to get beaten by the roller and plan for the help to get there instead of negating the initial pick by fighting through it. We have to understand that the help is the second line of defense, not the first. Just like they negative our high pick ‘n rolls, we need to do the same. Atlanta spaced the floor very well and ran isolations such as Johnson on Parker and Williams on Bagnani which were very effective. Bargnani played a few minutes at the SF position with O’Neal and Bosh but the results were not good. He couldn’t guard the quicker Williams and although he got good post-position at the other end, wasn’t able to convert nearly enough for Mitchell to continue giving the idea any more time.
Mike Bibby’s threes were daggers and Jose Calderon should’ve known better than to help when help wasn’t needed. There’s no excuse for not sticking to Bibby and making him the #1 priority when you’re on defense. Calderon got yelled at by Mitchell after the Hawks got an early transition opportunity and Calderon backed away from trying to make an attempt on the layup. You had a feeling that the Raptors weren’t prepared for the way the Hawks use their athleticism. On defense the Hawks were able to trap and recover as good as any team I’ve seen this year. The way you beat that is having options in your offense that react to certain situations. For example, if the high pick ‘n roll is nullified, you can’t just reset and run the same play with two different guys. There needs to be action away from the ball which uses the pick ‘n roll as a distraction to create shooting space for somebody on the weak-side. The movement or creativity in the offense isn’t there but before you shit on Sam Mitchell (and he does deserved to be shit on) also consider Parker and Moon’s talent level and ask yourself whether we should actually expect anything different. I don’t know.
Here’s my beef with Mitchell:
“There was just nothing we could do to stop them. We just couldn’t guard them tonight. Almost everybody was off. It happens.”
No, it does not happen. Mitchell should take responsibity for not having a plan to slow Atlanta down and can’t just write things off to “It Happens”. That excuse was somewhat acceptable against Detroit but we should’ve been better against Atlanta. Nobody’s expecting Moon and Parker to come out on top in this matchup but we are expecting them to provide some sort of resistance. I don’t want this team to accept failure by saying “It happens” because that’s loser talk. Pure and simple, he needs to be held accountable and we shouldn’t expect him to just throw his hands in the air and blurt out “It Happens”. I hate that.
If mild penetration followed by Bibby and Murray threes didn’t remind you of the Orlando series, then Maurice Evans firing from the corners surely must have. It showed me that our perimeter guys still can’t stay in front of their man and will allow their checks to create by penetrating 5-6 feet and dishing off to open shooters. Remember, there’s nothing Chris Bosh or Jermaine O’Neal can do when Joe Johnson drives to the point just outside the paint, draws help and kicks out to Calderon’s man. The play never got to Bosh or O’Neal so they never got a chance to be factors by altering or blocking shots, the only thing it did was draw Calderon, start the lazy defensive rotation and throw our rebound positioning off. Point-of-attack penetration has been a problem for the third straight year and we’ve done nothing about it.
So our nice little 3-0 start has come crashing down and we’re back to flirting with .500. It’s obviously early and there’s no need to hit the panic/panac button but there is serious work to be done on defense because if last night was any indication of how we’re going to handle that dreaded athletic wing player, we’re in for a long season. The ball’s in Sam Mitchell’s court, he’s got to make his pay cheque count for something by devising a scheme that hides our weaknesses against above-average opposition. Before the regular season began I said I’d give this team 10-20 games to find itself and work out the kinks of integrating a major new player and figuring out what to do with that sorry excuse of a bench, I’ll stay true to that.
Not much more analysis one can do, we got our ass kicked because we didn’t play transition/perimeter/man defense and allowed 62 points in the first half. Our simplistic offense couldn’t keep up with theirs and we suffered. The only reasons some of the numbers are close is because garbage time came early and we did some nice stat-padding.
Anybody catch the shot of the Atlanta scorekeeper? The man’s 96 years old, no wonder he keeps fucking up the clock. Thanks to everybody who showed up at Philthy’s last night, there were lots of people there, many probably showed up on their own but the ones that came because of us, special thanks to you. Nice chatting with some of you over some cold ones, too bad the Raptors let us down.
53 Raps
different seasons,different players,same stupid mitakes,same stupid plays,same stupid inability to stop bibby for goin off for 19 first half points on 5 uncontested 3’s…same shit.the players we have may have changed but we play the same stupid ball.
but hey,this is the same guy that let kobe go off for 81 refusing to send a dbl or triple to take the ball out of his hands…yeah,doorknobs will come post we dont have the sg/sf and we lack athleticism.but what team is perfect?what team has the perfect lineup?.if there was a perfect team, lets just hand them the trophy cuz its pre determined they are gonna win right?.it doesnt work that way.
every game is on average 100 pts so 50 buckets will be made give or take,that means 50 times somebody will get burnt.the aim of the game is to play smart and limit mistakes,make adjustments on the fly and outplay your opponent attacking a weak link and exploiting a mismatch….u dont make the same stupid mistakes over and over,u adjust on the fly…sam cant,the end.
if the boys are firing on all cylinders and hitting their shots which happens quite a bit and has given us consecutive winning seasons.were fine.but if we end up in a dogfight where things arent going right we dont have a coach in place to manipulate a win.jim todd,sams best friend left because he said sam wouldnt listen to the coaching staff and he didnt want their friendship to sour.
at the end of the first qtr sam was screamin,”we have a foul to give we have a foul to give”our players stop playing thinking will is going to foul the man with the ball,he doesnt,some dude rolls to the hole, quick drop in and slam,then with 6 seconds left,no play,no timeout, no nothin,will runs down court and jacks up a clanker.complete and total clock mismanagement.this team either has tuned sam out or they dont listen to sam or he isnt clear.either way after that sequence i knew we were done for………sam had no answer tonight,yeah,he’ll make subtle comments blaming the players and deferring all responsibility.thats unnaceptable.
props to arse’s awesome blog.thanks 4 lettin me vent + i drank way 2 much tonight.
As usual, great post. Calderon’s D on Bibby was the worst I’ve seen him play. Why is he helping AP when JJ is trying to drive past him? That’s the interior D’s responsibility, let them handle it. Why’s he roaming?? I have never seen Calderon ever strip the ball off someone and he never disrupts anything another guard is trying to do so why not just stick to your man.
I don’t like Smitch’s attitude either. He’s always making excuses and give us the ‘That’s how the NBA works’ speech. Depressing loss.
disgusting. couldn’t even finish watching the game…
Great post. Great analysis about the help defence and not blaming poor rotations.
I’m surprised you were able to pick all that up out of Smitch’s post game interview, from what I transcribed, it was basically: ‘They made shots… We had shots… We hesitated to take shots… Shots… Shots… Shots… Shots… Shots… Shot-making… Shots…’
I’d hate to go to a bar with him.
didnt it feel like atlanta knew exactly everything we were going to do and exactly how to destroy us on all levels from the outset?….i just read that jim todd is an assistant for the hawks.that explains it……….MO SHATS!
This was a terrible game. Good thing a friend came over and I didnt see the end. Hope Colangelo watched Sam’s post-game presser.
2nd in the East baby!! Contenders! NBA Finals – here we come! Twin towers 2nd coming… that cunt TJ is gone YIPPY!!!!
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Seriously, I think the players are tuning out Sam. First the constant “discussions” with Jose (I don’t think I’ve ever seen a PG talk to the coaching staff as often as he does.) and then a sequence last night where Sam is talking to Bosh with Bosh walking away raising his eyebrows, in disbelief as, if to say “WTF is this guy talking about?”
Whatever happens, it will not end well for someone. Either we are going to eat the East basement, Sam gets the boot or both.
Oh, and so much for us being the better team, they beat our ass without Smith, for cryin out loud. Like I said the other day, this team scares no one, in any way. Team are licking their chops when they play us, and guys are looking for career nights.
0-3 this road trip. Book it!
Good post Arse. The MVP line had me laughing. And all I could hear was Mick Jagger’s “Old Habits Die Hard” when I read the title.
At least it was funny in a thoroughly embarrassing way when Adams fell on his ass trying to play defense.
“Remember, there’s nothing Chris Bosh or Jermaine O’Neal can do when Joe Johnson drives to the point just outside the paint, draws help and kicks out to Calderon’s man.”
Great point. Solid interior defence only matters if the ball gets into the paint. You did see on numerous occasions last night where Bosh/O’Neal altered the shot of a penetrating player, not to mention the blocks. But you can’t leave professional players, guys who’s job it is to hit GUARDED jumpers, to take uncontested 3’s. It’s suicide.
What’s Wallace and J-Rich going to do to us?
Archimedies, this post is written at 2:30AM. At that time in the morning there aren’t any videos or detailed post-game transcripts out, so I have to go by whatever the AP report usually says. I usually update it the next morning with some more quotes from Mitchell but today I think that one little phrase summed it up.
I’m feeling Andiamo #1. It’s a bad loss which looks very much like a bad loss from any of the last two seasons. We haven’t addressed our personnel issues and are relying on the players we have to just “get better” which is not great strategy since their ceiling/potential isn’t high to begin with (Parker, Moon, Graham etc). I feel bad for them because they’re being asked to play outside their talent which isn’t fair either. You have to take care of the make-up of the team before you look at the on-court play…i’m rambling now, no sleep…fuck it, at least Arsenal beat Man Utd.
Arsenalist,
Please don’t take this comment the wrong but … there is no other way for me to say this.
IMO, there are a lot of observations in this piece you’ve written today which are not an accurate description of what exactly happened to the Raptors in last night’s game against the Hawks.
Specifically, generalized comments like these …
* “Once again our wings get owned on defense and don’t provide nearly enough offense to make up for it.”
* “Point-of-attack penetration has been a problem for the third straight year and we’ve done nothing about it.”
* “Not much more analysis one can do, we got our ass kicked because we didn’t play transition/perimeter/man defense and allowed 62 points in the first half.”
do not target the real source of the problems with this team, this season, and only serve to muddy the waters further, in conjunction with some of the inaccurate commentary we also get consistently from Raptors television broadcasts.
There were specific players who got broken down last night, in specific situations on the court … who Sam Mitchell was trying to protect, BTW, as a good coach should in his public interviews, by not identifying them individually, by name … and to simply put the blame on an entire ‘group’, or mis-assign the blame completely to, either, the wrong group of players or the wrong individual player, is a disservice to these individuals and a representative indication of the overall poor level of ‘Basketball Acumen’ displayed by most of the active voices on-line amongst the Raptors rabid fan base … who don’t really understand what they’re seeing when they’re watching an NBA game.
e.g. In Point-of-pentration situations which involve a #5-on-#1 Pick & Roll, whose responsibility is it to contain that initial dribble penetration by the opponent’s Point Guard? (i) The Ball Defender, or (ii) The Pick Defender, or (iii) It Depends … on what the specific defensive scheme is that’s being used on that play, and in the gameplan vs this specific opponent.
Contrary to what many Raptors fans might think … Jack Armstrong, Leo Rautins, Matt Devlin, Paul Jones and Eric Smith are not high level NBA analysts, e.g. like Jeff Van Gundy or Mike Fratello or Hubie Brown, etc., who have had the resonsibility of coaching in an NBA game and understand implicitly what’s involved when a play or a player get broken down.
e.g. Watch the tape of last night’s game again … and look closely at which specific Raptors players got beat off the bounce without the hinderance of an Atlanta pick being set, and how many times specifically this play happened to certain Raptors and not to others. If you do, I think the answer my surprise you.
e.g. Then watch the tape again … and look closely at which specific Raptors players got beat down the floor in defensive transition, either, by their individual check or a player who they should have been responsible for picking up on behalf of one of their teammates who was in the process of retreating himself. If you do this, I think the answer might surprise you.
e.g. Then watch the tape again … and look to see the difference in the physical size of a player like Jamario Moon and Anthony Parker, in comparison with a ’stud’ like Joe Johnson, and ask yourself which of the Raptors players is best equipped to defend 1-V-1 against a player like JJ? If you do this … I think the answer should NOT surprise you.
When you take the time to write a detailed post about the Raptors trials and tribulations in a game, it’s important to get it right … especially when you are now considered to be a MUST READ for many amongst the Raptors faithful … because if you don’t it can cause as much damage as any mis-informed piece written by one of the Raptors regular propoganda machines.
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PS. I am pretty busy today, so there won’t be an opportunity for me to go back and forth with others about what I saw in last night’s game that others might have interpreted differently … and I do not believe in ‘piling on’ when things are going badly already for my favourite NBA team … but tomorrow is another day, and I’ll be happy to exchange ideas with others who might be interested in learning more about ‘How the NBA game works’ along with me, and the Raptors, and the Charlotte Bobcats.
- Rodney [but not Art] Carney
Keep On Truck’n : )
Arse, seems funny since that is what I’ve been saying for months.
I still think had we brought 2 or 3 players in, instead of JO and addressed some needs…
I think AP is the type of player that enjoys being challenged by his teammates, so bring in someone and have them dogfight.
Jamario needs somebody to really step up and challenge to take away his starting role.
Jose needs to know there is an NBA-experience reliable backup on a bad night.
These things should have been addressed. Instead we invested in a player that does none of those things and specializes in blocks….something that was not nearly as big an issue as other things we had on our plate.
The team looked gassed last night. That scares me.
Sam Mitchell’s Thoughs during the game…
We are down 4-0 call a time-out. Then yell at the PointGuard. Good job that should clear things up. Oh wait…I think the other team is laughing at us. It ok guys just play though it.
Hmmm.. Things are still bad. I got an idea…lets try a new line-up again. This way we will have ‘No Flow’, ‘No Familar Plays’ and our opponents can really expolit us!
Hummm… Not working….I know try another new rotation. Put Hassen Adams in….shit Adams just fell an his ass.
I know… OK everybody make there own shot… Half Court Sets!
Why doesn’t my Amazing Play Book work? Where is my playbook? What is a playbook??
Maybe if I yell & scream and act like it all the players fault things will change.
Come-On Moon keep trying. I Beleive I you. I’ll just keep letting you learn your lesson at the expense of the team. Go Moon, Go!!
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I know some people will say it was this guy fault or that guys fault and Sam just used what he had. But I think Arsenalist make a good point in sayin’ “Mitchell should take responsibity for not having a plan to slow Atlanta down and can’t just write things off to “It Happens”.
Hey Sam, did you know ‘Sam’ Rymthes with ‘Plan’!!
…I don’t Think Sam get’s it….
Team did appear to be gassed tonight, and I agree that the Mitchell quote is indicative of Sam’s attempts to combat a good team.
Instead of setting up plays, he throws out different line-ups and just lets them play. Ukic and Solomon out at the same time was my favourite (*sarcasm*), and Bargs got abused when playing the SF. Bargs/Bosh/JO so far has only sounded good in theory.
Kudo’s to JO for taking a step forward tonight. He’ll be much better when he’s better conditioned.
Spudz
http://www.altraps.com/forum
Really not gonna worry too much about this beating. Always tough to win on the road, last night Atlanta was on fire and couldn’t miss.Raptors have trouble against quick teams.
Parker and Calderon a combined 4-19 with zero FT attempts.
On a night when Atlanta couldn’t miss. Defensively, last night, we were flat. Last two opponents have absolutely killed us at SF and SG positions. Between O’Neal, Bargnani and Moon, a combined 9 rebounds. Just an ugly game to watch, turned it off after 3 quarters.
Do not think this team has played all that well since the Philly game(and see rebounding #’s in that one!). Do think we will continue to improve. We said it might take 10-15 games to see what this unit is capable of doing prior to opening night. Lets not jump ship 5 games in. Its a very long seasons and a stinker like last night will occur. Might be what this team needs.
Am I the only one who’s glad the Khandor will not be available?
I might agree with the Sam thoughts….if we didn’t have a proven track record of not being able to stop ANYBODY from exactly what the Hawks used to exploit us.
They knew how to attack us. It’s called good scouting…(something which I still think we lack, by the way). You don’t think Sam knew, for example, that Bibby makes us his bitch whenever and wherever? What can you do when you have a horrible defensive team? Rely on your GM to bring someone in, in most cases. Not so lucky here.
Anybody who thinks Woodson outcoached Sam last night needs a reality check.
Gotta agree with Khandor’s observation on the 5 on 1 pick. Yes, the Hawks are athletic but they played a good system, maximizing their abilities (this wasn’t simply mid-90s one-on-one play). The Raps perimeter defenders ran into continual picks at the top of the three-point line from the Hawks’ big men, allowing the ball handler to get a better matchup on a slower Raps big man. Not sure how to defend against that, as I think switching on D is exactly what the Hawks are prepared/aiming for. More talking from the big man to the defender to keep an eye out for the pick perhaps?
Another thing I didn’t understand is the perimeter defenders doubling down low or at least hedging that way, leaving open shooters on the outside. Looked like the Orlando series all over again.
On D, the Hawks seemed content to go one-on-one with O’Neal and Bosh and not let the Raps shooters beat them. As the game went on and it became clear Calderon and the swingmen weren’t shooting well, they started to swarm a little more around Bosh when he got the ball down low (though Bosh still managed to get his).
Kapono got some points from pull-ups, some smart plays on offense, though one time he faked and went in for the pull up two when I thought he had enough time to take the three clearly. Say what you will about Kapono’s athleticism, but if we could take his offensive smarts and stick them in Moon or Graham, we might just have a pretty good swingman.
Atlanta simply beat us with athleticism in the back court (and sizzling shooting) at a time when the Raps are not yet fully in sync on D rotations and O sets (which will come). The Hawks have exposed every team they have played thus far in the same manner (no pushovers). I expect them to come back down to earth as more “cranial” teams get their shit together.
As for Khandor – I’ve never seen a poster use more words not to make a point while fully engaged in an “argument” he/she initiates (a tactic in self-defence?…or preparation for politic life?). He/she critics others while not giving anything back with substance (destructive criticism at it’s finest). However, I do enjoy reading responses to his/her posts for high comedy (I assume this is his/her intend).
Did anybody notice during one of the time-outs that Calderon broke into the coaches huddle and said something with obvious concern/anger to Mitchell, who just nodded in agreement?
Dissension brewing ..??!!!!
khandor, please enlighten me as to who should’ve been guarding JJ. I look at our roster and AP, Moon and Graham are the only candidates I see and they all have their flaws. We don’t have a stud to match their stud. Now you’re probably doing some out-of-the-box thinking and will probably recommend something like Hump guarding JJ.
I don’t have time to look at the tape three times but I did watch the game and checked out some of the plays on PVR and I still think our pnr defense stinks to high heaven. As to who’s responsibility it is to make sure their pns are negated? It’s not one guy, it’s both of the people involved that have to make sure there’s no space being created during the action. the ball-defender’s got to fight through and the pick defender has to either step-back and not get in the way of his teammate so he can get back to his man (this is where jumpers are conceded) or he has to come into position so that he can stop the roll (thus leaving room open for the drive). I appreciate that you’re looking the game at microcosmic level but that doesn’t mean the general statements I’m making are wrong.
As Raptoronto said, they beat us with their athleticism and back-court shooting. This is a game where the box score tells a lot of the story.
Alt – you are me are usually on the same page except that you love to shit on JO every chance you get.
Mitchell never takes responsibility for a loss. His post-games after a loss are so predictable now. “We just got beat.”
…and Jim Todd presence on the Hawks bench should not be dismissed lightly.
Didn’t shit on HO last night. Had a good game. Again, the fact that he was totally gassed concerns me. I don’t buy the whole “still getting into condition” crap with him. He has supposedly been in the gym for almost a year. I thought Bosh was a wheezer, but HO is like a vac.
Raptoronto, How much time do you give them? Unlike most teams, we have been using our starters since day one of training camp, which is coming up on a month, over it if you count when the players were training “unofficially” in Toronto. Personally, I give them until the end of November to see if they gel. My concern is that they ARE gelled. How many times have you seen errant passes due to a guy assuming his teammate was cutting a particular way? Bosh is scoring, Jose is not too far off what he did last year, Andrea may be playing as well as he has/could, Parker about the same, Kapono about the same, Moon about the same, etc. Just who are we waiting for to sync up?
FAQ – not only did Calderon tune out Sam in this game, so did Bosh. If you are one of only two players that brings the needed intensity to every game and carries your team for long stretches, at some point being called out publicly will get old. Definitely something to watch for with winning being the cure all.
I know it’s early, blah, blah, blah but I recognize the team in the black jerseys last night and that’s not the team I paid good money to see this year. We’ll see how I feel Monday but I’m actually thinking of calling to see if I can get a refund on the tickets I’ve bought for this season. Not sure I’d actually cash them in but what other way does a ticket-holder/fan have to express the kind of anger a game like last night’s inspires? I’d pay good money to see a team rebuilding. I’d pay good money to see a team capable of challenging the established powers. I don’t want to pay money to see a team tread water while wasting its best player. Fuck
arse – don’t waste your time with khandor, his sole purpose in life is to provide critiques of other people’s critiques, without providing anything but vague references to ‘go look at x play.’ of course, there’s the usual ‘most posters don’t understand the NBA game.’ in end, it usually leads back to a nonsensical belief that robo-joe’s being misused, and that he should have have been assigned to JJ, and would, no doubt, have shut him down completely.
look, sometimes, the answers really are right in front of you. there isn’t always a need to search outside the box for odd, nonsensical reasons. the simple, unfortunate fact is simply that our 2s & 3s simply do not match up with the 2s & 3s of most teams, and certainly not of playoff-calibre teams. it’s not a matter of working/trying harder, or being better coached, or playing x minutes. it’s about ABILITY. that simple. now, certainly, there will be games/matchups in which the disparity between ‘them’ & ‘us’ isn’t as large as it was last night…but to think that the raps will be gaining an advantage over any other 2/3 combo in the league (and that’s the point right? to gain an advantage in as many positions as possible, as many possessions as possible, right?), is simply foolhardy. at best, we should hope they’re able to hold their own.
if only we had a guy like…RODNEY CARNEY!! oh yeah, i’ve come around on him, he would’ve laid the smacketh downeth. boo yah!
so, how’s that bargs/JK for harrington or wallace deal sounding now?
Sorry, Tinman … looks like I’ll have a few minutes here and there, off and on, today afterall. : )
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re: Defensively, last night, we were flat. Last two opponents have absolutely killed us at SF and SG positions.
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This is not an accurate assessment of what happened last night.
Jason Kapono, then Anthony Parker, then Jamario Moon, then Andrea Bargnani, then Will Solomon … each got killed off the bounce last night by a variety of Atlanta’s players … not just their #2/3’s … e.g. Marvin Williams totally abused Bargnani in at least 1-V-1 situation I can remember off the top of my head. [I don't have the tape in front of me right now]
I read reports on last night’s game that detail what a crafty offensive player J-K is … which is true … and what a good job J-Killa did providing the Raptors with at least a little bit of solid O to go with CB4 … which is true … but, nowhere do I read anything at all about the fact that Jason was also absolutely brutal last night defending his individual check off the bounce and anytime he was required to rotate out/close out vs a player on the defensive perimeter. Nowhere at all.
I read how Bargnani is coming along offensively in the low post … which is true, in part, depending on who it is he’s match-up against … but, nowhere do I read anything about his horrendous defensive transition, which is resulting in either open looks for the opposition or straight layups/dunks by his individual check or the player he’s responsible for rotating to in defensive transition.
Or, about his total inability to (a) contain the ball-handler who is using the #5-#1/2/3 pick that his man is repeatedly setting on the ball, or (b) avoid fouling this ball-handler as he is driving into the Raptors lane to create havoc with Toronto’s defense.
Nowhere at all.
Instead of reading about the fact that Joey Graham is the only Raptor Defender with the physical attributes required to defend adequately against a player with the body and the skill set and the size, etc., that a Joe Johnson has … rather than a too small & slow AP or a too thin J-Moon, who were doing their level best to tackle that challenge last night, on a night that JJ was most definitely ‘on’ his individual game …
what I read about is how Joey G. got his shot blocked … from behind, at that … by an off the ball defender, hustling back in transition, like Mario West, who is a h*lluva athlete in his right … as if this was somehow a ‘bad’ play by JG, or in some way indicative of him being a poor NBA player to begin with. Not.
The litany of ‘errors in reporting accurately’ what actually happened in that game last night are simply too much for me to cover thoroughly, at this time … but, from an NBA acumen standpoint, what Sam said happened last night was, more or less, right on the money, and he at least, had enough class to refrain from calling out specific players publically and did an excellent job of ‘protecting’ the players that have been given to him to work this season, from #1-13.
Do not for a minute think that Sam now enjoys coaching a ‘Will Solomon vs a Acie Law’ match-up, in an NBA game … NOT for a nano-second.
Sam played 13 years in the NBA and trust that he now knows better than any of you what Will Solomon actually does and doesn’t know about guarding a player like Acie Law, coming off the bench, in his 2nd year of pro ball, for the Atlanta Hawks.
And, it isn’t pretty. Not on a night like last night.
When I wrote before the game and told others in these locals just how much this Hawks team has improved from last season … what a sound [and I mean very, very sound] basketball mind like ‘Dave’ gave me back in return were comments, exclusively about JJ, Josh, Al, Marvin & Mr Bibby, as not really being that much better than they were last season.
Well, you know what?
What he didn’t do was touch upon any of the players I had in mind, as being THE reason for the Hawks improved play so far this season. Guys like … e.g. Acie Law, Solomon Jones, Zaza Pachulia [who was injured much of last season], Randolph Morris, Flip Murray and Maurice Evans … each of whom is a better fit for/with the current Hawks team than an ‘average’ NBA player named Josh Childress who is best served by cashing big cheques in the Euroleague cause he doesn’t have any sort of Primetime specialty to his game that an ‘above-average’ player needs to have if he’s going to succeed big-time in this League over the long haul.
The fact is … when you put the slight improvements of players like JJ, Marvin, Josh & Al together with the major upgrades this season to the games of the players listed in the previous paragraph … each and everyone of whom is relatively ‘athletic’ at the spot he plays in the NBA … what you’ve got now is a pretty solid, youngish & still improving team in the EC that is poised to go right by the TEAM THAT BRYAN’S BUILT here in Raptorville, if Toronto isn’t very very careful this season.
There is one person who is RESPONSIBLE for the current situation with the Raptors, and … depite his short-comings as a coach, as a work-in-progress, still … that person’s name IS NOT Sam Mitchell, nor Chris Bosh, nor Jose Calderon, nor Jermaine O’Neal, nor Andrea Bargnani, nor Anthony Parker, nor Jamario Moon, nor Joey Graham, nor Jason Kapono, nor Will Graham, nor Roko Ukic, nor Kris Humphries, nor Hassan [I'm not a very good NBA player], nor Nathan [I'm just trying to overcome my heart condition, so don't include me] Jawai … that person’s name is Mr. Bryan Colangelo.
When it comes to the running of this team, the buck stops with 3 specific individuals, the two principal owners [i.e. Larry Tanenbaum & Richard Peddie] and the President/GM of Basketball Operations … then it shifts down to Sam Mitchell, who just happens to be a solid [but not great] NBA coach, in his 5th year at the helm in Toronto … and, then, the specific players who got abused on the defensive end of the floor last night, in their individual match-ups against the Hawks, at the #1 [Will Solomon], #2 [A-Parker, & J-Kapono], #3 [J-Moon], and #4/5 [Bargnani] spots, respectively, in the half-court as well as in defensive transition.
On a night when Jose Calderon’s shot was OFF, and Chris Bosh was not getting the foul calls he may have deserved … especially by that one little putrid NBA ref, who was punked off by CB4 and responded by giving him the T in return … the Raptors simply didn’t play well enough as a group to get the W against a much improved outfit like these Atlanta Hawks.
- Rodney [but not Art] Carney
[excuse the stream of consciousness ... cause I'm a little bit rushed]
And, btw … a player like the real life RODNEY CARNEY, as a 6-7 defensive check with 1st class nba athleticism and agility, etc. … is PRECISELY the type of player this Raptors team needed last night to put out there against a player with Joe Johnson’s individual game.
ROTFLOL … at a certain Raptors fan who cannot see this for himself. : )
[and that doesn't include you Dave ... cause I know already that you, in fact, know exactly what I'm talking about, in this specific instance ... as a player like Mr. Carney is such a better match-up vs JJ, in comparison to a player like Joey Graham, who would try but still get beat in the end, or a player like AP or Jamario who is simply in over his head physically when it comes to dealing effectively with JJ when he's 'on' his game]
Khandor, I think you’re right in a sense. The Raptors need player like what you imagine Rodney Carney is. I suspect management and Mitchell thought they had a reasonable facsimile of that player in Jamario Moon but he has just disappeared. There’s a part of me that wants the team to waive him just for spite. They might have hoped that Joey Graham could be that player too but we all know how that is working out.
Anyway, if things continue in the vein of the last 2 games I might be willing to suspend outrage for 10 games or so if BC traded Bargs for Carney (and balast).
yeah, me so stupid, not understand game with basket & ball, can’t see if player good or if player bad. khan is clever, see all those words, my, so clever. he truly ’sees,’ me bow down to superior intellect of khan, he new hero. khan always know what players would be good with team of raptors, especially when there is little chance players ever end up with TO, or could have ever been acquired.
ooh, i have thought. team in need of good defending 3…maybe the NBA basketball team in minnesota would be willing to trade us carney. but who would we have to give up to get him? why not…jose calderon? deal is super smart, cause i think outside of box. it make sense, raptors get much needed defensive-minded SF. roko can be new starting PG. also, raps be in better position for high lottery pick this way, for to select next euro-bust.
theres a reason why khandor posts his blogs here.its because nobody goes to read his blogs on his own page,i wonder why?….hey khandor,a hundred words wont make them wise.
Nice article Arsenalist!
Was that ever painful to watch last night…at times i really didn’t think the raps were even on the court on the defensive end, i was shocked when i saw one of them actually step in front of a hawk trying to drive! wait, did that even happen? lol
One-game hyper analysis should always be measured with hindsight. That being said, my piece to add, is that THIS is the fundamental issue:
“What can you do when you have a horrible defensive team? Rely on your GM to bring someone in, in most cases. Not so lucky here.” (AltRaps)
Agreed. Somewhat.
SMitch deficiency #43,782: Player motivation/accountability/stick-to-it-ivity
Old dog/new tricks corollary here. Sure, NBA players coddled practically their whole careers, have the ability to do what they want, whenever they want, with little reproach.
Example: Anthony Parker did a stellar job with his defensive intensity in last years playoffs – a notable increase in his aggression/activity, miraculously from his in-season effort.
A respected coach and his staff *could* ensure/instill that kind of tenacity even in players without a predilection to turn back and crash the boards. (Anyone agree that Joey Graham, if drafted by the Pistons, under that system/tutelage, would be a more aggressive rebounder and post player?)
Jamario. Hump. Bargnani. Jose, even – the natural defensive ability is undoubtedly lacking, but the ineffectual effort sticking to what (hopefully) is practiced is more glaring.
SMitch deficiency #78,112:
While crossing fingers and awaiting the GM to deliver the magic swingman who can D up the stud 2/3’s in the league, schemes can be devised, practiced and ingrained to offset poor penetration D (and rotation D).
There isn’t a prevailing defensive system, that the Raptors can revert to when their shots aren’t falling. Granted, not many teams can boast this either but whether Woodson outcoached Smitch or not, there ARE coaches out there who are much, much better than Sam (and staff) in preparing teams, prior to the tip-off.
Unscientific anecdote: I’ve seen the Raps 8-0 down, far more times than I can remember them UP by a few buckets.
ALT – I’m giving this team 20 games before I try to peg their identity (or lack of). Integrating a starting center that will be your defensive centerpiece and one of your primary focuses in offensive sets (in and out) will take time (I don’t think the pre-season does much for team cohesiveness; it’s really the experimental phase of the season), especially when that player has missed so much of the past two season with injuries. JO can’t get his legs, lungs and timing back outside of real games, just not possible in my mind. Once JO hits his stride, the rest of starters will get a better sense of how to work with him (and get in sync).
Our interior presence combined with our outside shooters will win us more games than we lose but if want to be a top tier team we need another one or two bench players to step up (we all knew it was a crap shoot from day one as to who would step up or not). Kapono and Barg’s have been better than I expected but outside of those two we have been dreadful. I expected we would struggle until Solomon got up to speed (with Ukic likely needing half a season to get acclimated with NBA life on and off the court) and either Moon or Joey or Adams gave us some respectable defensive presence a the 2-3. Still not clear what we will get from these guys but I’m still holding out hope that it will be better than what we are getting now (or it may affect the psyche of the starters if they don’t pull their weight). 15 more games before I start dishing out some heat!
Hey guys did you see Sam’s post game interview after the past two losses the guy looked as depressed and down as Swirsk did at the end of last year’s playoffs. You can TELL from his expression that the axe is swinging near and he’s starting to feel the heat.
Raptoronto, I’m with you on the 20 games. I think JO needs to hit his stride as you said before we evaluate the team. Not sure how much he’ll help the wing defense but we’ll see, let’s give it some time.
FireSamMitchell:
SMitch deficiency #78,112: There isn’t a prevailing defensive system, that the Raptors can revert to when their shots aren’t falling.
Very good point. Every good team goes through offensive droughts but the good ones retain their advantage through playing defense when their shots aren’t falling. The only time the Raptors managed to do this was against Philly this year and as is being proved, they’re not that good.
I think Sam needs help coming up with defensive schemes, I’ve always been an advocate of hiring a D-Guru as an assistant coach much like Tom Tin Boston or KO under Larry Brown in Detroit. Great assistants can add a lot to the team if the head coach gives them some sort of autonomy but as pointed out by Tim Chisholm, Sam doesn’t strike me as the guy who’ll play second fiddle to anyone on his coaching staff when it comes to anything.
khandor: Joey Graham cannot guard anyone. This is probably the biggest misconception out there. The guy cannot move laterally, he just can’t. Just because he has the physical attributes does not make him a good defender. In the preseason he had one good game against Minnesota where he took a couple charges but that’s it. Joe Johnson would KILL Joey Graham off the dribble, just destroy him and leave him for the dead. Joey might slow him down in post-ups by playing physically or by fronting but JJ is a multi-talented player and can take you inside or outside. In this case he’d take Graham in the 12-16 foot range and drain jumpers all night because Graham would have to respect his drive by giving him space.
yertu: I hate speculating on who we could acquire because I have no clue whether the player is available or whether MLSE is willing to take on salary. With that in mind I wouldn’t mind seeing someone like Raja Bell on the Raptors. He’s not going to put us over the top but he’ll bring a defensive presence to the perimeter that is lacking. I doubt the Suns make this move though.
L: I don’t know if the sword’s hanging because its only been 5 games, as I said give it some more time. I think if we see a few more losses like last night then questions will be raised. If you’re been reading arsenalist.com or even this site you know what I think of Mitchell. As But as AltRaps keeps pointing out, he’s been given nothing to work with at the SF position. There’s a school of thought that this is where Mitchell needs to earn his money and hide team weaknesses while there’s another POV which feels sorry for him. I used to be in the latter but am drifting more and more towards the former.
I have great news! The Raptors already have Rodney Carney on their team! His name is Joey “don’t call me Rod” Graham. A defensive specialist in college with freakish genetics but no basketball court sense…our saviour is here!
Joey would like to point out, however, that he is not injury prone, has never been packaged ALONG WITH a first round pick and a scrub with salary for future cap relief for just a SECOND ROUND PICK and has actually had to contend for his minutes on a winning team while posting better stats than Rod.
Wait, better news! Since Joey is likely better than Rod that means we can esily trade him for TJ Ford straight up with no salary implications because…well just because. We can then trade TJ for Harrington or G.Wallace and bring home a championship banner. What is Colangelo waiting for?
Here’s the thing, though, and a serious question: what would you do with this squad to hide our weaknesses?
Obviously the ideal thing is to run your guards out and either force penetration to the paint or a pass down low and rely on HO and Bosh to get a stop or a board. That isn’t going to last long and, as Doug Smith said, scouts talk. If they can duck under Moon and hit that 20footer, we are doomed. If a PG can jab step or simply beat Jose, ditto. If anybody is standing still, they can beat Kapono.
This is one of my issues bringing HO in at his value. Sure, you protect the paint, but what else? His rebound numbers are still alarmingly low for a man his size and his lack of effort boxing out surprises me.
I can’t help but worry that Bosh could feel like a one-man team again by February.
u cant hide your weaknesses in ball,but you win by playing to your strengths and minimizing exploitation….double down anyone?lol.sams a joke.bargs came in for 2 straight buckets in the post,next thing poor drea is getting raped playing the sf….is drea a sf?how many fucking times will sam see drea get raped at the 3 before sam gets it?…all those stupid lineup combos roko n will on the floor together?what does thsi coaching say to the players?…..we had a nice groove goin first 3 games untill sam decided to go to will.roko was playing solid backup minutes to jose.but no,sams gotta get will in and roko is resigned to bein a scrub.lol.
Arsenalist,
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re: khandor: Joey Graham cannot guard anyone. This is probably the biggest misconception out there. The guy cannot move laterally, he just can’t. Just because he has the physical attributes does not make him a good defender.
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If you could … please pick out a possession which has happened so far this season in any one of the Raptors 5 games … and identify the quarter, the time and the score when it happened, so that I can look it up for myself … during which you believe Joey Graham has been beaten to the basket off the dribble by his individual check [i.e. a player of comparable size, who plays a wing position for his team].
I’m not saying that it hasn’t happened thus far this season, only that I am asking you to point it out to me.
On my part, and by way of contrast … I will show you at least one possession that has happened so far this season during which a pretty good NBA wing player tried but was unable to go by Joey Graham on the dribble in an attempt to get to the basket, i.e. during the Pistons’ 3rd possession of the 2nd quarter, at approximately the 10:28 mark, approximately, when the score was Det 24, TOR 25 and Joey Graham was isolated on the Right Wing versus Tayshaun Prince.
IMO, there’s a difference between making a specific claim based on specific possessions in an NBA game … and the generalized statements of others which are largely perception-based but without concrete possession-by-possession examples which we can all go back to on videotape, re-examine thoroughly and attempt to understand clearly what someone else is seeing that we might have missed ourselves when it happened in real life.
^blah blah blah^….joey sucks dookie….give it up.
well, clearly, khan wins this one. i mean, he found an example of joey closing off the lane against a very good wing player. that’s it, case closed. i gotta wonder though…in practice/scrimmage, would robo-joe not be matched up with our less-than-stellar 3? and if he can’t make a defensive statement against MOON in practice, what faith can the coaching staff have in him to actually put in a consistent, solid effort, and actually use some of that herculian physique to good use? i guess the only way to see for sure is to just give him the minutes. of course, if/when that happens (it won’t), and he does EXACTLY what he’s done over the last 3 years with those minutes (which is a whole lot of nothing), and the raps don’t improve at all, we’d all know for sure just how useless he is. well, those of us with the unfortunate inability to ’see.’ expectations of him are so low at this point, and yet, he can’t seem to meet even those to a satisfactory enough degree to warrant PT. sure, the raps must figure out a way to use him in the right way…this is all on them, if only they’d figure that out, they’d have an all-NBA calibre defensive stopper.
wait, bad example with the practice thing…there’s no reason to expect that moon offers up any kind of challenge for his defender in practice either…
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re: well, clearly, khan wins this one. i mean, he found an example of joey closing off the lane against a very good wing player. that’s it, case closed. i gotta wonder though…in practice/scrimmage, would robo-joe not be matched up with our less-than-stellar 3? and if he can’t make a defensive statement against MOON in practice, what faith can the coaching staff have in him to actually put in a consistent, solid effort, and actually use some of that herculian physique to good use? i guess the only way to see for sure is to just give him the minutes. of course, if/when that happens (it won’t), and he does EXACTLY what he’s done over the last 3 years with those minutes (which is a whole lot of nothing), and the raps don’t improve at all, we’d all know for sure just how useless he is. well, those of us with the unfortunate inability to ’see.’ expectations of him are so low at this point, and yet, he can’t seem to meet even those to a satisfactory enough degree to warrant PT. sure, the raps must figure out a way to use him in the right way…this is all on them, if only they’d figure that out, they’d have an all-NBA calibre defensive stopper.
———————
So THIS means you don’t have a single example of a specific possession in a game so far this season of Joey Graham getting beat off the dribble by an opponent he has been assigned to check on that possession who is similar in size to him and plays a Wing position?
Hmmmm …
: ) , : ) , : )
For the interests of others …
The old saying which goes,
“Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit”,
happens to be accurate because it means the practicioner is just this side of being ‘witless’, and is incapable of making others laugh ‘with’ them, not ‘at’ someone else, but together ‘with’ that person, plus the other by-standers, at an authentic life situation which ‘all’ involved recognize and accept/value as being funny/humourous but without attempting to put anyone else down, in the process.
Genuine humour is not an easy thing to do … especially, for the witless … : ) … for whom we should all have sympathy rather than scorn. : )
To wit:
There is someone, active in this thread, for whom I have great sympathy.
——————————–
Let’s hope the Raptors play better today, against the Bobcats, in a game which could go either way … as, IMO, the ability level of the players on these two rosters, grouped collectively, is actually quite close to one another.
If the Bobcats are at all distracted by the Gerald Wallace [and to a lesser extent, the Sean May] trade speculation … this might be a solid opportunity for Toronto to get back into the Win column quickly … which would be a nice boost for the team, prior to heading into Boston tomorrow night … a game for which the Celtics should be ready to rock-n-roll, given their memories of how the Raptors dealt with them when they last visited Beantown.
As I mentioned prior to the start of the regular season, today’s contest versus Charlotte is a key game on the Raptors’ schedule this season, given where both these teams are right now in their developmental curves.
re: u cant hide your weaknesses in ball
This is not an accurate observation, as a skilfull practicioner can most definitely hide ‘weaknesses’ in ball.
re: His name is Joey “don’t call me Rod” Graham. A defensive specialist in college with freakish genetics but no basketball court sense…
This is not an accurate comment, as Joey Graham was generally perceived to be an ‘offensive’ player during his US college career.
theres a reason why khandor posts his blogs here.its because nobody goes to read his blogs on his own page
The fact that individuals like Kelly Dwyer [Yahoo Sports!], JE Skeets [Yahoo Sports!], Matt Moore [Hardwood Paroxysm], ‘Dave’ [nbaroundtable], Tom Ziller [nbafanhouse.com], Dave Zirin [Edge of Sports, Welcome to the Terrordome], Michael Grange [From Deep], and a host of others, thus far, DO NOT agree with YOUR perspective about this … is of far greater significance to me. : )
if you say so, genius.
As I said before … re: the value of ’sarcasm’. : )
“The fact that individuals like Kelly Dwyer [Yahoo Sports!], JE Skeets [Yahoo Sports!], Matt Moore [Hardwood Paroxysm], ‘Dave’ [nbaroundtable], Tom Ziller [nbafanhouse.com], Dave Zirin [Edge of Sports, Welcome to the Terrordome], Michael Grange [From Deep], and a host of others, thus far, DO NOT agree with YOUR perspective about this … is of far greater significance to me. : )
”
But like everyone else, they don’t visit your blog.
Live blog started:
http://raptorsrepublic.com/liveblog/raptors-vs-bobcats-live-blog-chat.html
Tinman,
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re: But like everyone else, they don’t visit your blog.
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You are entitled to hold your own perception about what it is you ‘think’ others do or do not do with their time in this world.
For my part … I am glad that I do not share THAT perception with YOU regarding the on-line activities of the individuals mentioned in the prior two comments.
As the old saying goes, “Ignorance is [indeed] bliss.” : )
——————————-
Enjoy today’s game against Charlotte.
I know that I will. : )
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