Grab the Opening Tip PDF here.
3-1 to start the season? I’ll take it. Dropping a tough one to the Pistons is palatable when 2 of the first 3 wins came on the road (and one of them was on the second night of a back to back).
It’s been a while since we’ve said a game against the Hawks will be a tough one. Last season, they manhandled us and single-handedly decided the fate of TJ Ford in Toronto when Horford raped him on a layup attempt. Then Calderon got elbowed in the back of the neck by…I wanna say Anthony Carter for some reason, can’t remember…dirty birds they are.
Even without Josh Childress, who is ripping up the Greek league, the Hawks are still one of 4 undefeated teams in the league. Remember, this is the same team that took Boston to 7 games in the 1st round last year.
They are long, athletic and finally have a point guard who has been nothing but a Raptor killer. 38 rebounds wont get the job done against these guys, as everyone but Bibby crashes the boards.
I expect Mitchell to ride Bosh for major minutes AND production. Last weeks player of the week has really stepped up this season. I’m starting to think I’m the first to admit when I’m wrong, and it looks like I have been wrong about Bosh. His Olympic gold medal has transformed him into the vocal leader this team has been missing since Oakley/Davis were in town.
O’Neal is due to show up, and put up a $20mil performance. As athletic as the Hawks are, O’Neal should be able to impose some physical play on Horford and Pachulia. I’m hoping O’Neal drops Horford on his ass when he gets in the paint. TJ may not be a Raptor anymore, but the scar is still there, for me anyways.
Starting Lineup
Calderon / Bibby
The Edge: Raptors – Bibby is coming off a bad games against the Hornets. Paul abused him, and I see no reason why Calderon can’t. The key to Bibby is to make him run around on defense. If there is a point guard in the league weaker on D then Calderon, my vote is for Bibby. Calderon has been a stud to start the season, and I so no reason why he can’t win this battle. Bibby will get his on offense, but if his points come at the expense of Johnson, it will be a long night for Atlanta
Parker / Johnson
The Edge: Hawks – Johnson is a fantasy dream. The guy is a tough player, who has a knack for scoring at will. Raise your hands if you saw what he did to the Celtics in the playoffs. Masterful. Sadly his defense is a tad weak, and if Parker can tired him out running around high/low picks, his jumper might not fall as much. I’m not looking for Parker to outscore Johnson, just make Johnson work on every single possession.
Moon / Williams
The Edge: Hawks – Prince gave Moon a diploma last night. Actually he gave every Raptor one. Marvin isn’t quite the player Prince is, but he has a solid 15 foot game, and will make Moon pay for his defensive gambles. The key for Moon will be to keep Williams in front of him, and force a drive into Bosh or O’Neal. Swatting Williams will prove difficult, as he is just as athletic as Moon. I’ve lost all faith in Moon so far this season, so I’m not expecting a whole lot out of him tonight.
Bosh / Smith
The Edge: Raptors – This is the must see battle of the game. Both these guys are match up nightmares for the opposing team: long, athletic, tough, good jumpers, great rebounders, solid defenders. They will each get theirs on the boards, in the hoop and out on the floor, but Bosh gets the edge because he is a better player. The key in this match up is to out-do the other player IMHO.
O’Neal / Horford
The Edge: Raptors – Simply put, O’neal is due. He has had a couple sub-par games, and HAS to pick it up. I’d look to establish him in the paint off the bat, and let him go to work against Horford. It was accepted that it will take O’Neal 15 or so games to get back his feel, but he has to start showing some progress, so at the 15 game mark, the team will be gunning on all cylinders. It’s games like this, when the opposing player isn’t a Wallace/Biedrins/Bogut that O’Neal will have the opportunity to pick it up.
The Line
Vegas.com has the spread at -3 for the Hawks.
Prediction
Tough call really. The Hawks are due to lose, and the Raptors will be looking to win one of those games that will go a long way in determining where they stand in the Eastern Conference. This is one of those character games against a team hovering around the same spot as the Raptors. Historically, the Raptors have lost these battles, but this isn’t a run of the mill Raptor squad. I wouldn’t bet on this game, but my gut is telling me the Raptors grind out a tough one, and extend their road winning streak to 3.
So far this season, I am 4-0 on my predictions, take that with a grain of salt.
There wont be live chat for tonights game, as we will hosting another Raptor Fan Friday at Philthy McNasty’s. Arse has a thing for one of the girls who works there, so a pint to the guy who picks her up in front of him ;)
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58 Raps
Won’t Moon be covering J. Smith? I suspect that Smitch will match up that way to keep our only offensive threat energized and out of foul trouble.
I agree with exposing Bibby. He’s really playing shitty so far this season and should be punished by Jose. I also think both Roko and Solomon can take him as well – Ukic with his size and Sweet Willie with his speed.
How our team responds to a loss in a tough road game will be telling…though it’s game 5, they’ll be facing this situation over the course of the season. It’s a test, the same as Det was a test. If JO can take it to the net (and get to the fucking line already) then I think we have a shot.
if moon is going to cover josh smith, this will be a LONG night for the raptors. take what prince did, and add about 28 rebounds.
Yup, that’s the worry.
Hey guys, I’ve already reminded the members at Raptors Forum about “Raptor Fan Fridays”. So hopefully you’ll get a few of our members down at Philthy’s tonight.
Link: http://raptorsforum.com/f/showthread.php?t=4087
Cheers fellas and keep up the good work.
Raps Fan,
You are going to be sorely mistaken if you think this Hawks team is similar in nature to the ones Toronto’s played the last few years.
They’re much better than that.
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re: As athletic as the Hawks are, O’Neal should be able to impose some physical play on Horford and Pachulia.
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Are you kidding?
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re: I’m hoping O’Neal drops Horford on his ass when he gets in the paint.
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Are you kidding?
If the Raptors win tonight, it will be because Jose Calderon has a terrific game, like he did vs Milwaukee, AND Chris Bosh does likewise, and possibly because Kris Humphries gets a chance to follow-up his positive [brief?] performance against the Pistons with an extended 15-minute run vs an outfit like the Hawks, with their solid physical Bigs rotation of Horford, Smith & Pachulia.
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re: Tough call really.
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Are you kidding?
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re: The Hawks are due to lose,
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Are you kidding?
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re: … and the Raptors will be looking to win one of those games that will go a long way in determining where they stand in the Eastern Conference. This is one of those character games against a team hovering around the same spot as the Raptors. Historically, the Raptors have lost these battles,
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Exactly.
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re: … but this isn’t a run of the mill Raptor squad.
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Are you kidding?
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re: … I wouldn’t bet on this game,
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Whew … that’s a good thing! … you had me worried there, for a while. : )
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re: … but my gut is telling me the Raptors grind out a tough one, and extend their road winning streak to 3.
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Could, possibly, happen, but … reason says, “That it’s highly unlikely.” : (
I feel a lot more confident in a Raps win, with Khandor picking a loss.
Mike Bibby is the worst starting point guard in the NBA on the defensive end of the floor. The pressure he puts his teammates under …. terrible, just terrible. He’s playing off his reputation at this stage of his career.
Disagree on Joe Johnson’s defense. He’s a very good defensive player. Only above average perimeter defender the Hawks have. Heck, he’s the only above average one-on-one defender (Josh Smith poor man-to-man defender, very good help defender) they have on their squad. Wait, why isn’t this team a good defensive squad again?
Hawks have been a below par rebounding team on the defensive end. They attack the offensive glass ferociously though. Jermaine O’Neal needs to be careful helping off of Al Horford.
Raptors are by far the better team. Hawks are in good form though, that win over the Hornets was impressive (so was their comeback against Phily).
RUN THE FLOOR
HIT THE GLASS
LET’S KICK ATLANTA IN THE ASS!!
(SAY HEY!!!) (SAY HO!!!)
khandor: i guess i wasn’t clear, i do think this hawks team is different then the ones the raptors have played in the past – read a better team. in fact, i think they are very good.
by not being a run of the mill, i was comparing them to seasons past, and meant the raptors have shown some resilience this season. they pulled out a couple tough games, and were in the pistons game…somewhat.
Dave, I agree with you on Bibby but not that Raptors are by far the better team. I’d wager to say that the Hawks are younger, more athletic, and have more weapons. If they just had a PG (Speedy and Acie Law are NOT the answer, either) they’d be mad dangerous. I am waiting for them to trade some of their young studs for a solid PG and then, watch out.
Dave,
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re: Raptors are by far the better team.
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Please explain further.
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Raps Fan,
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re: by not being a run of the mill, i was comparing them to seasons past, and meant the raptors have shown some resilience this season. they pulled out a couple tough games, and were in the pistons game…somewhat.
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Last year’s team did this as well.
khan – considering your preseason predictions for the first 20-odd games, it’s not surprising that you disagree with the notion that the raps may win.
i’m just curious…what, exactly, makes it ‘highly unlikely’ that the raps pull out a win? by stating it as such, you’re basically saying that the hawks are the far superior team, and shouldn’t have much difficulty with the raps. not that it’s worth much, but vegas has the hawks giving 3…now, i may be mixing up football & bball lines, but isn’t 3 the variance given to the home team? so, vegas is thinking that they’re pretty evenly matched, and i’m inclined to agree with that. we haven’t seen the raps play a complete game yet – they’ve been good in spurts, and horrible in others, and outside of bosh & jose, everyone else has been fairly (to woefully) inconsistent at one end of the floor or the other). the hawks have played very well, putting up impressive wins on the road & a big-time comeback win at home vs. philly (they were down by 20+ in the 2nd Q, if i remember correctly). so, 3 good wins against 3 very solid playoff teams…yeah, a win will be difficult, but most of ‘em will be. how many ‘easy’ wins do we really expect them to have this year, what with JO not providing (much) secondary post offense & the bench looking pretty thin?
lastly – if by some miracle they do pull out a ‘highly unlikely’ win, it will have to count as a great achievement….right?
Anthony Carter? He was and is a Nugget, my friend.
The thing I like most about this year’s team so far is the fact that with Jose Calderon on the floor for heavy minutes … it, at least, has a shot at winning each & every game it plays because he understands how to play the PG position for an elite level team in the NBA, i.e. Offensively, Defensively & Rebounding wise.
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Personally …
I would have loved to have seen what this team could have done this season, and going forward from this point, with ONLY one major change to last year’s roster, and the addition of Ukic & the 2008 No. 17 [overall[ Draft Pick:
1 Calderon
2 Parker
3 Moon
4 Humphries
5 Bosh
------------
1 Ukic
2 Carney [acquired in for Ford]
3 Delfino
4 Bargnani
5 Nesterovic
————
2/3 Kapono
4/5 Garbajosa
No. 17
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When you conduct a serious ‘experiment’ the only way you can know exactly what the variable is that brings about a ‘resulting’ change in performance … i.e. either up/better or down/worse … is by isolating only ONE at a time.
Otherwise mis-identifying ‘the authentic cause’ of the change which results is all too common and, fundamentally, leaves you no further ahead than you were before conducting the experiment in the first place. : (
ford for rodney fucking carney. rodney carney…the guy on the ‘wolves who can’t get into the rotation? stuck behind COREY FUCKING BREWER? that would’ve been a good ‘get’ for what is, most agree, a top-15 PG (many would put ford in the top-10)? um, sure. an interesting thought. goes a little further than ‘outside the box.’ of course, i don’t understand basketball, the NBA GAME or WHAT MAKES FOR A GOOD TEAM, or, my favourite, how guys should be used.
hump starting at the 4. yeah, why not. i mean, what’s the worst that could happen? it’s painfully obvious to anyone who truly understands the NBA game that his progress, to date, to the eyes of the informed, and the educated, has been sullied, by those who have chosen to not see beyond what they’re really seeing, and fail to, at the NBA level, understand the TRUTH, which escapes the ‘conventional wisdom’ of most, who don’t realize, in the grand scheme, NBA players in today’s NBA, and that valuable commodoties, like our mr. humphries, will only excel in the NBA game, if, and when, a great mind sees beyond what said commodities have produced to date, and focus on what they could produce, if only they were given the opportunity, coaching, mentoring to do so.
Khan…. you really cant be serious about that can you?
You would have rather traded ford for Rodney Carney???
He hit 31.7% of his three pointers… 29.7% of his long twos, has a career average of 6.1 points and can’t get any burn on a team that will maybe win 30 games this year.
Thats exactly who i would want on my team… not even to mention that the trade doesn’t even work numbers wise.
Right.
And by the way, if you are going to criticize something like you did in your first post, back it up. Ridiculing someone’s work is unneeded. If you have points then share them and have a discussion, saying “are you Kidding?” is not a valid analysis.
FWIW …
I’ve made no pre-season ‘predictions’ about which games the Raptors are going to win this season.
Others should trust that I know full well what the difference is between saying, in advance:
i) The Celtics are going to beat the Lakers in the 2008 NBA Finals which starts tomorrow;
and,
ii) Outlining, in advance, a possible scenario which the Raptors might find themselves in to begin the 2008-2009 regular season.
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If in doubt, go ahead and ask Flux. He can verify THIS FACT for you.
re: what makes a specific win-lose outcome ‘highly unlikely’
Absolutely nothing … since in every single NBA game that’s played each of the respective opponents has exactly the same chance of winning, or not, based on the Laws of Probability, i.e. 50%.
Then, again … since the Celtics did win 66 regular season games last season, while the Miami Heat managed to win only 15 … it might well be the case that the Laws of Probability are not the only thing at work, in the NBA Galaxy, when it comes to actually determining W-L outcomes. : )
thanks for the defense Sanders, but i don’t think khandor was ridiculing me.
hoopinion: who was it that elbowed calderon in the back of the neck last year then? i can’t remember for my life.
Hey, Raps Fan … you forgot to compare the coaches ….. Sam Mitchell v.s. Mike Woodson. Surely this comparison reflects on the game as much as the players on the floor.
Speaking of Mitchell … is it only me who senses that Sam’s persona has changed … from an aggressive loudmouth to a chastened, quiet, almost defeated person whether he is coaching during a game of in post-game pressers.. why is this …??!!!
As for Humphries in the starting five: What makes him any good is the fact that he is an arrogant idiot who plays with a chip on his shoulder because he isn’t getting enough burn. If he starts and gets consistent minutes its going to do nothing but demotivate him, as he thinks he has proven everyone wrong, and will also aid in his god-complex that makes him think he should be shooting as much as chris bosh. This needs attitude needs to be broken down, the only thing he responds to are Sam’s swift knocks to the head.
FAQ: I think he is just growing and adapting to his roster. His team is older than last year and he is adapting his role to fit with the fact that he has a stronger group of personalities in the team-room. He doesn’y need to be as loud and angry, its more effective if the team-mates discipline each other. He is just letting them do that a bit more because he trusts the locker room more.
Barack Obama could beat Rodney Carney 1-on-1.
Sanders,
I think Raps Fan and I have a pretty good understanding of one another and feel confident that he interpreted my “Are you kidding?’s” in the right way, in the manner they were intended, on my part. : )
re: Mr. Carney
Do you know the name ‘Michael Cooper’?
Before you go saying that that 1-for-1 deal wouldn’t have worked for the 76ers and the Raptors last season, prior to the 2008 NBA Draft … I’d suggest doing a bit more research … and, then, getting back to me about it at a later date.
The fact is … my memory isn’t as good as it once was, and I make more mistakes these days than I did before, so I could always be mistaken about a small detail like that one, in which case … if the NBA’s arcane trade restrictions dictated other than a 1-for-1 trade was required to fulfill that proposed transaction last off-season, then from what recall, it may have been a two-for-one deal I put through the ESPN Trade Checker, at the time, involving two Raptors players [e.g. Ford + a spare part not named Rsho Nesterovic] and one 76er [i.e. named Rodney Carney].
Then, again, ESPN’s Trade Checker could perhaps have made a mistake.
When a trade is proposed the first order of business is to put an offer on the table which the other party might well be interested in accepting, since it seems on the surface that they might be getting the better end of the transaction.
The second order of business is then to consummate the transaction, knowing that the asset you are getting in return for what you’re giving up might, in fact, have a far greater upside, if it turns out that your basketball acumen is at a different level than is your trading partner’s and what it is your counterpart is actually giving up turns out down-the-road to be of far greater ability, in combination with the other assets you have in the cupboard already than was ever thought possible by your unsuspecting ‘dealer-friend’.
I have no problem whatsoever with anyone else thinking that Rodney Carney is an unworthy NBA player to be getting back in return for someone like TJ Ford. In fact, that just puts a smile on my face.
Sorta like the one I think Gregg Popovich had on his when he and Spurs lucked into acquiring one Bruce Bowen.
In the NBA, The Value of the Whole, for a top notch team, needs to be so much greater than the mere sum of its individual parts, it isn’t even funny.
I was going to post 10 minutes ago but it took me that long to stop laughing. Khandor, Khandor, Khandor . . . Your next 20 posts should draw a simple, 2-word response: Rodney Carney. When you call me, yertu and anyone else who has posted on a thread ignorant or misguided – Rodney Carney. When you drone on for the millionth time about how the Raptors, “as currently constructed/managed or whatever your phrase is”, will not compete seriously for a championship – Rodney Carney. When you rag on Bryan Colangelo for not being Joe Dumars – Rodney Carney.
You are aware of the salary cap right? You got to pretend-GM the Raptors for a post and all you got for TJ Ford was Rodney Carney? What did you do with the $6+ million salary differential – buy a pretend house? What did you do with the talent differential. Wait, don’t tell me because you already know my response – Rodney Carney.
Anyway, feel free to rag on me but at least I got us Harrington AND Azabuike (my Rodney Carney) when I was pretend-GM’ing.
Peace
Dinosty,
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re: Barack Obama could beat Rodney Carney 1-on-1.
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In which case … it’s a darn good thing for the T-wolves that basketball is so much more than just a ’1-V-1′ game. : )
I missed #21. You know what I have to say to that? Rodney Carney!
I hope he stays in the league. His name now brings a smile to my face.
Sam,
I think I should just sign my comments from now on as,
Rodney [but not Art] Carney.
What ya think? : )
i like it, lol.
Sam,
Speaking of, “Rodney Carneyfication” …
ever seen the little movie gem, “Breaking Away”?
If you have, you’ll know exactly what I mean by …
“Refund? … Refund? … Refund? … etc.”
which is what,
“Practice? … We talking ’bout Practice, Man, … Practise? … etc.”
was to me long before A.I. launched into his youtube moment of infamy.
Simply classic stuff. : )
- Rodney [but not Art] Carney
Raps Fan,
It might have been Anthony Johnson who did the dirty deed, from the top turnbuckle. : )
YES!!! thanks man. i wasn’t that far off.
Khan,
ok… so lets play your game and say that the numbers worked. Which i may add. If you are going to propose a trade, you might want to get the players you are traded nailed down before you propose it.
Lets look at the sides of the trade here, Carney, yes he is young, so i guess he has “upside”, he is known to be a decent defender who can slash to the hoop. Alright, fine. At 6’7 he is adequate height to play SF. Too bad he cant shoot worth a damn. If Bruce bowen couldn’t shoot threes, there is no way the spurs win the championships they did. He HAD to be just good enough to prevent people from cheating. Defense alone was not enough. But lets just say that the raptors think he is an upgrade over moon. Fine.
One thing i cant grasp. Why in gods name would the 76′ers take on an oft injured point guard when they have Andre MIller, who just ushered them into the playoffs in the second half of the season and the undoubted started and an up and coming or at least serviceable back-up in Lou Williams? Why would they spend 8 million dollars on a back-up when they have so many young players whom they need to ink to extensions???
This makes no sense from the Philly perspective. Your argument is based on the fact that he will become some uber defender who will be in the mold of bruce bowen… when two teams say your no good… there might be a reason for it.
philly doesn’t have a viable backup pg, and miller is getting old. there would be a clear succession of the pg to a young energetic player who could lead the break with iguodala, williams, speights and young. not a bad core of young guys to lead their team into the next few years.
hahahaha…yeah, carney’s right around the corner to being one of the all-time best defensive players the NBA’s ever seen. an integral member of a 5-time championship team. i see it, it’s right there, the similarities are astounding. and to think, the raps could have had the second-coming of michael cooper…
playing pretend-GM sure is fun. but only if you come up with totally wacked-out trades. like bargs & JK for harrington or wallace (wait…both actually work, financially & personnel-wise. oops). i guess the only way to ‘prove’ you have superior basketball knowledge to make the most ridiculous, obscure, unfathomable trades possible, and then defend them by saying, ‘just wait & see, player x (in this case, carney), is far better than you underlings can possibly imagine, and will be a star in this league for many years…if used properly.’ hey, carney may very well become a serviceable player, but at 24 and unable to get serious burn on a horrible (really, truly horrible team) cause he’s stuck behind another 2nd year guy (who isn’t overly shit-hot either), it doesn’t bode well for the future. but what do we know? it’s not simply a matter of replacing a part on the raps (ford) that was no longer of value & in return getting a serviceable piece to fill a hole (whether carney was/could be that piece is debatable), it’s about maximizing your return.
Thanks Raps Fan.
Or … perhaps, since the 76ers would have been getting a ‘valuabale’ asset like Ford, on the cheap, so-to-speak … they might well have been able to parlay Mr. Ford into an even BIGGER fish as they were shopping around the League this off season or next, for an asset the likes of which they do not perceive themselves to be in possession of at the monent.
Assets are never a bad thing to accummulate in this League.
You mean to tell me … if I offerred you TJ Ford for Rodney Carney,
I’m talking RODNEY CARNEY here, people,
you think the 76ers would have turned THAT deal down?
Rodney Carney!
- Rodney [but not Art, except perhaps to my closest friends] Carney
I’m sorry Khandor, when there are former all-stars and fringe all-stars(wallace) being offered for Ford, i think the shopping cart is for a higher level player than Rodney Carney.
He is a throw in to make the cap numbers work.
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re: i guess the only way to ‘prove’ you have superior basketball knowledge to make the most ridiculous, obscure, unfathomable trades possible, and then defend them by saying, ‘just wait & see, player x (in this case, carney), is far better than you underlings can possibly imagine, and will be a star in this league for many years…if used properly.
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Actually there are other ways beyond doing just that …
ROTFLOL : )
Khandor,
As most here know I haven’t been complimentary about the Raptors chances in the playoffs (I think they’re likely to lose in the first round). I look at the East in tiers:
(1) The first being Boston who stand head and shoulders above the competition
(2) The second being Cleveland, Orlando, Phily, Detroit. Phily are disappointing right now and in danger of dropping a tier, but I’m not prepared to change my mind on that this early.
(3) The third tier is Toronto and Washington.
(4) These are all the teams vying for the 8th seed. Atlanta being one of them.
Toronto are further ahead than Washington and with some small moves (supporting cast) they could join that second tier. They’re not far off that second tier, they’re close, but they’re not there. With one big move (trading Bargnani+Parker for a borderline all-star wing), and a small move or two, they could jump up the queue in a big way.
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On to the Atlanta Hawks,
Firstly, let’s get rid of the ludicrous suggestion that Atlanta almost beat Boston. They lost four games to the tune of 17 points, 19 points, 25 points and 34 points. Which one of those contests did they have even a glimmer of hope of winning? Their average margin for victory in that series was 11ppg, they trashed the Hawks. In the regular season the Hawks lost each of their three matchups with Boston by an average of 14 points and didn’t have a chance to win anyone of them (I watched each one). By some fluke they got three wins on their home floor while Boston played very poorly (by their standards).
Secondly, let’s talk about their defense. They have two above average defenders on their squad in Joe Johnson and Josh Smith, and Smith can’t defend his own man. Everyone else last season was below average (most slightly below average), and then Bibby who is awful defensively. Two summer signings in Murray and Evans will help but I consider both to be average defenders (Murray capable of more, but is inconsistent). Their overall defense is still nowhere near good enough to compete and below average overall.
Offensively, Joe Johnson is on an island. His teammates leave him out to dry with shocking regularity. Nobody has stepped up as a capable second scorer. Josh Smith is the best equipped but he’s too unreliable, too inconsistent, not just from game-to-game but quarter-to-quarter and possession-to-possession. The playoffs displayed Smith in a nutshell – 22ppg on 54% shooting in the home games to 11ppg and 27% shooting in the away games – it’s an extreme example but an apt description.
Then you have Marvin Williams who contributes hardly anything to the team outside of scoring, and he only does that a mediocre rate. Then there’s Al Horford who gets 10ppg. Hardly the offense dreams are made of.
Mike Bibby is a solid offensive guard but he can no longer take his man off the dribble consistently, so he takes a lot of long jump shots, mostly contested. He’s also vulnerable to being shut down by any competent point guard and screen and roll defense in the league, like Boston did. This isn’t new, this has been Bibby for two years now.
Once again, the two FA signings help. The loss of Childress hurts. Not much difference overall, except in the way the basket comes (jump shots and drives [Flip], rather than hustle play and efficient inside scoring).
Rebounding wise this team is average, slightly above even. It’s phenomenal on the offensive glass, ranking fourth last season … and dreadful on the defensive glass, only 26th in defensive rebounding last season. Horford is a beast on the boards, but Smith doesn’t do his fair share. When it comes to rebounding Smith is regularly lazy. The man is capable of being a dominant rebounder, he’s shown that, he just doesn’t put enough effort/concentration in to do it consistently. Williams lack of board work hurts double because of Smith’s lack of work, vice versa also true. The loss of Childress will hurt them on the backboards.
Then you get to the Head Coach who for some unknown reason refuses to let his team push the ball and play to their strengths (below average in pace – 19th last year, 24th so far this year). Refuses to run plays for Horford. It boggles the mind at how this man still has a job in this league.
Heck, they were lucky just to make the playoffs last year finishing with the league’s 19th best record …. and they’re nowhere near a certainty to make it back this season. Indiana finished one win behind them last year, and the Pacers offseason additions/subtractions have improved them a lot more than Atlanta’s have.
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Present tense – The Atlanta Hawks are a below average team. They’re below average offensively, below average defensively and slightly above average on the backboards.
The Hawks need huge improvement, not small, but huge improvement to make it up to the next level in the East. Then they need another massive improvement to make it to the second tier.
As of right now, the Raptors are by far the better squad.
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Dinosty,
I agree the Hawks are well positioned for a move in the future if they get both a trade (agreed on the PG need) and internal development from their youngsters (one of the two could be enough to draw level with the Raps) …. I just don’t think they’re there today.
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Khandor,
How highly do you rate Rodney Carney’s defense? Do you think he’s an elite stopper in the making?
Any thoughts on why he didn’t play much in Phily? If he’ll break out in Minnesota?
‘You mean to tell me … if I offerred you TJ Ford for Rodney Carney,
I’m talking RODNEY CARNEY here, people,
you think the 76ers would have turned THAT deal down?’
that’s just it…the trade is so one-sided, only a complete & utter moron would either propose it or accept it if they had the more valuable chip. like, WTF?!? of COURSE the 76ers wouldn’t have turned it down, but it NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN OFFERRED IN THE FIRST PLACE. we may be just playing at GM, but the moves suggested have to be based in some kind of reality, no?
Sanders,
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re: I’m sorry Khandor, when there are former all-stars and fringe all-stars(wallace) being offered for Ford, i think the shopping cart is for a higher level player than Rodney Carney.
He is a throw in to make the cap numbers work.
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I’ve got no problem with that.
You can take Gerald ‘Oops, my post-concussion Syndrome symptoms have returned’ Wallace … and, I will take Rodney Carney … thanks very much.
[or, if you'd prefer, substitute JO's name in there, instead, in place of the NBA's burgeoning Mr. Lindross]
Differnt strokes for different folks … makes the world go round. : )
You mean like the Clippers turned down Marcus Camby?
Opening tip is hilarious.
‘You mean like the Clippers turned down Marcus Camby?’
completely different scenario, and you know it. camby was a salary dump.
Edgar pipe down! We’re still talking about Rodney Carney here.
‘You can take Gerald ‘Oops, my post-concussion Syndrome symptoms have returned’ Wallace … and, I will take Rodney Carney … thanks very much.’
yeah, it’s best not risk getting a player with an injury-history. much safer to just get the unproven & utterly pedestrian ‘never-will.’ and then, when he either doesn’t play, or plays like shit, we can always fall back on the ‘he’s simply being misused’ mantra.
i mean, that IS what’s going on in minny right now, right? carney’s just not being used properly, right?
Dave,
There are well-founded reasons at the root of why I like and R.E.S.P.E.C.T. you …
even though we don’t see quite eye-to-eye on all things related to the NBA.
: )
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re: the Hawks
IMO, you’re going a tad too much on what the Hawks have been in the past [immediate and long term] and not focusing quite enough on where the Hawks are today, with the roster they have on-hand.
Do I think Atlanta is going to win the NBA Title this season, or next, or next, etc.?
At this point … No, I do think that, at al.
But, I do think the chances are actually quite good for their team to show themselves this year as being much better than they were last season, at least, in the regular season, and as a team moving up in the EC this year.
Coming back from down big at home against either the Magic or the 76ers [I forget which team it was?] and then winning on the road, handily, vs New Orleans, giving them their 1st loss of the season … is no mean joke.
Salary dump from the Nuggets perspective, that’s right … but how about from the Clippers POV?
The Clips were offerred a gift horse … and they took it. End of story.
e.g. if the Knicks offerred Gallinari to the Spurs right now for Matt Bonner do you think San Antonio would turn that deal down?
[because it doesn't qualify as a salary dump, or because it is simply too much of good deal, and therefore must indicate that the big guy's back is completely shot and he is likely to be in a wheelchair within the next 6 months, or etc.]
If the Raptors would have called the 76ers last June and offerred Ford to them in return for RODNEY CARNEY … RODNEY CARNEY! … RODNEY CARNEY!! … RODNEY CARNEY!!!
there’s no way Ed Stefanski would have said, “No, thanks”, to that deal.
ROTFLOL : )
Dave,
IMO, in Minnesota right now, Carney’s in a tough spot, given who else is on their roster, at the position which he plays best, in the NBA , especially given how these other players have been acquired by the T-wolves.
This would not have been his situation in Toronto.
Neither Bowen nor Cooper could shoot straight when they first came into the League.
It’s not where you start that matters most in life, it’s where it is you eventually end up, through a combination of your gifts, hard work, and good fortune.
IMO … Carney has the type of athleticism, intelligence and personal fortitude it takes to succeed as a defensive stopper in the NBA, if ever afforded this opportunity by a coach who believes him.
Dave,
Sorry …
Didn’t play in Philly because they already have Iggy there.
Khandor,
I agree I’m focusing too much on the past and not the present, but that’s only because I feel it’s too early to judge the present.
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There’s some young teams (Portland), or players (JR Smith), where I’m very confident of their ability to develop and fulfill large chunks of their potential quickly.
Then there’s other teams and players where I am not. The Hawks are one of those teams where I recognize the potential is there, but do not feel certain enough of their ability to [partially] fulfill it right away.
I haven’t watched much of the Hawks games yet this season. I saw them in preseason (3-4 times) but hardly anything of their regular season games. I watched the second half of the Hornets game and the first quarter against Phily when they were getting blow out of the building – before making a huge comeback. That’s all. I might have seen a bit of the Magic game, or I may be confusing that with the preseason games they played. So I haven’t seen much of them yet.
So my reasons for concern, and what I’ve seen in the limited action so far:
- Horford has added a few wrinkles to his game (jumper is better), but I haven’t seen any major development. He’s not attacking offensively, not trying to create his own shot often enough, not playing in the post often enough.
- Marvin Williams had his training camp interrupted by injury so it’s hard to judge him. He’s likely still working his way back into game shape. There was a lot of noise about his great offseason work, but we’ve heard that before, and it hasn’t shown up in the games yet. His lack of contributions outside of scoring scare me, and his lack of versatility in how he scores scare me … scare me in terms of how much potential is really there and whether he can fulfill it.
- Josh Smith has exhibited the same mental problems for four seasons. That’s a long time … and a mountain that’s difficult to climb. He had a very poor preseason but I hear that he’s been great in the regular season. Smith also has a lot of skill flaws like one-on-one defense and his jumpshot, which again would take a huge amount of work to develop. The next steps he has to take as a player are very difficult and he’s struggled with them in the past.
It’s too early to say what progress these guys can make this season.
But I’m not confident enough in their ability to make that progress to give them credit before it happens – unlike a Portland and a JR Smith where I am willing to do so.
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Two other notes:
(1) I’m looking at these four wins and I notice Atlanta are third in defensive efficiency. They finished 18th last season and were much worse than that after Bibby came aboard (26th in the league). This is highly unlikely to continue.
(2) Young legs start quick. Every year there’s young teams who jump out to an impressive record, and then begin to fizzle as the opposing veteran teams begin to take shape. Atlanta were one of those teams last season.
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As a result I’m basing most of my evaluation on the past. When more games are played I’ll adjust that accordingly, but I need to see that development happen on the court first and be sustained for a period of time.
Just droppin’ a quick plug for tonight’s RAPTOR FAN FRIDAY party!!
I’m so HYPED!!!! (BOH!!)
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WHAT TIME IS IT?!!
(IT’S TIME TO GET BUSY IN THIS MOTHAFUCKA!!)
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LET ME CLEAR MY THROAT!!
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WHEN I SAY “UGH”!!! (YOU SAY “AHH”)
UGH!! (AHH!!)
WHEN I SAY “HEY”!!! (YOU SAY “HOE”)
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NOW, FREEZE!!!
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khan…i think we’re both making the same point. of course, if gallinari were offered for bonner, the SPURS would take it in a heartbeat. but why would you assume something like that would happen? it’s outside the realm of fathomability. i’m not sure why your ROTFLOL, when i think it’s you that’s missing the point. you’d have done the deal (ford for carney) if you’re looking at it from philly’s perspective (duh), but WHY DO YOU THINK BC WOULD CONSIDER MAKING THAT OFFER IN 1000 YEARS? it’s completely outside the realm of possibility. beam yourself back to this planet.
please, can you give me an example of deal in which a clearly superior player was traded for what can’t even be considered a decent prospect when a salary dump wasn’t involved? even the KG deal, though one-sided, actually netted minny AJ, a potential all-star.
dave – your patience astounds me. you know who you’re dealing with, right? you’re points are far too, what’s the word? oh yeah, coherent.
Yertu, re: 52 Gasol to Lakers? We need to get David Stern on our side too. Maybe he can force Portland to trade Roy for Bargs
here’s something I can guarantee: the Hawks will be better than the Raptors this year.
Toronto will have a tough time making it to the playoffs..they will lose in the first round if they do…this season (and next) are a fucking failure since the whole point of this stupid fucking O’Neal trade was supposedly to get past the first round….fill the roster with D League level shit and a has-been…and be arrogant enough to presume you get to the playoffs….great plan….
They only beat Golden State because Ellis was out….the were slaughtered by Atlanta even with Josh Smith out the second half, lost to Detroit without Billups and McDyess at home …they will have a tough time with Charlotte and they will be killed by Boston….
The only teams I would be comfortable with the Raptors playing are Sacramento and San Antonio..and only because Parker has sprained his ankle and Ginobili is out.
You think this is an over reaction?? Imagine this team when Bosh has his first injury (and it’s only a matter of time)…a fucking lottery team….
Watching Mitchell’s bench attitude … disappointed .. disaffected .. disgruntled .. disgusted .. discombobulated .. defeated ..???!!!!!
At the beginning of the season, Sam said the Raptors were not ‘athletic’ but were ‘basketball-wise’ .. which to me sounded like an admission of no confidence in the team that BC has provided Mitchell.
Surely there must be a limit to what a coach can do to improve a team on an overall basis. Surely Sam must be struggling in a job that he knows will end in failure, resulting in loss of motivation and little job satisfaction.
Look, the Atlantic division has improved as has the Eastern Conference … while the Raptors may now have fallen to a relatively lesser team. Now that the team weaknesses are emerging, it may be doubtful that the Raptors can even make the playoffs. This should not be surprising because of the inconsistency and even weakness in the 2 and 3 spots on the team. The Raptors are definitely not athletic at the 2 and 3 spots, and the bench is weakened by players who have no upside.
Attempting to resurrect the Raptors using statistics and fan faith may be futile. The only addition to the team was JO, which shored up the 5 spot .. but the team is still deficient at the 2 and 3 spots, with no hope on the horizon. Perhaps the MLSE strategy is to just keep the team together until 2010, and then blow it up.
Perhaps drastic action must be taken .. like trading Bosh for several young and promising players now. You can’t run your starting 3 for 40 minutes all season .. something has to give ..!!!
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re: I feel a lot more confident in a Raps win, with Khandor picking a loss.
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When my favourite NBA team loses a game … I take no comfort, whatsoever, in being ‘right’ about anything.
Nor do I believe in ‘piling on’ when someone else is already down on the ground.
In life … it’s important to at least try to be a better person than that.
Keep On Truck’n : )