They say history repeats itself. So if we study it we should have some understanding of how the future will play out. Take for example the Raptors head coaching position. Let’s quickly run through the list: Malone, Walker, Carter, Wilkens, O’Neill and Mitchell. Aside from maybe Malone, not a single coach has left on even remotely decent terms with the club so its hard for me to believe that Mitchell’s time in Toronto will result in a happy ending. We Raptor fans have never been satisfied with a coach – ever! Even when Butch Carter was running the show with Vince and T-Mac, we still found reason to complain. Simply put, nobody is good enough for us. Nobody.
Mitchell’s talents and skills are probably somewhere between Darrell Walker and Butch Carter’s. He’s definitely got more control of the team than what Walker had and he’s simply not as sharp a basketball mind that Carter was. (On a side note, how Butch Carter never got another league coaching gig is beyond me) So given what we’ve seen of Mitchell over the last four seasons, is he on the threshold of finally becoming a coach that can actually get the majority approval of fans? Remember, there has rarely been a time when this was actually true. My personal opinion is no, he won’t and I can point to his playbook, his arrogance, his refusal to admit that he’s wrong, his know-it-all attitude, his substitutions, his handing of rotations, allocating player time, resource utilization etc. As you can see the man has shown us a lot of his flaws over the last little while.
If you’re asked to look at his strengths the first thing you’ll come up with is that he’s a great motivator, a no-nonsense type of coach that doesn’t stand for drops in effort and brings the lunch-pail mentality to the club. In other words he does as a coach what he did as a player. Although hi positive traits don’t come close to making up for what he’s shown to lack, this observer thinks that if he was actually just able to instill this kind of attitude in this team I’d be satisfied! That’s it! The most disappointing thing about Mitchell isn’t that he started Andrea Bargnani at a position he’s never played before in Game 1 of the playoffs but the fact that he’s so far been unable to get this team to play the hard-nosed type of basketball that he himself played.
Let’s forget about the X’s and O’s and yanking of players for no reason, let’s just look at the attitude and on-court personality of the Raptors. Do they resemble Sam Mitchell the player at all? Who on the Raptors could be considered a “lunch pail” type of player? Humphries is about it and he’s the 7th guy in the rotation at best. I care about wins and losses as much as I do about the personality of this team, I enjoyed watching Sharone Wright and Reggie Slater work their asses of while the team went 16-66 but somehow I don’t get the same feeling here even though this team will probably make the playoffs for a third year in a row. How do you explain this? Why hasn’t Sam Mitchell been able to instill the toughness, character and grit in this team that comes so naturally to him? He was hired primarily because of that and yet four years later we’re basically the same lost souls that we were back then.
Now you might say that he’s been handed the wrong team. That Colangelo’s vision doesn’t jive with Mitchell’s ways and that you can’t teach pigs how to fly or in this case Colangelo picked players how to play the Mitchell way. It even might be a valid argument up until last year but coming into this season things have changed. Mitchell has been handed an All-Star and two potential All-Stars to get the job done. O’Neal’s a hard-working and tough low-post player that fits the Mitchell mold of player and we already know about Chris Bosh. There’s no doubt the bench is weak but you can’t ask for everything, at some point you’re going to have to earn your money and produce more with less, after all that’s what coaches get paid for. Mitchell’s been given enough ammunition to prove if he can actually take a team with both talent and flaws to the next level by hiding the latter and highlighting the former. If he can’t do it now, he won’t have any excuses.
As commenter Chutney pointed out yesterday Mitchell seems to be instilling a flippant attitude in the team where one doesn’t have to answer for one’s mistakes and can get away with playing poorly as long as they’re playing with the “fake hustle” Mark Jackson so eloquently referred to. The point of this semi-rant? If Mitchell’s not the right coach for us we’ll find out before December as I doubt Colangelo would tolerate any more slip-ups and excuses from his not-hand-picked head coach and will unceremoniously end yet another Raptor head coach’s reign.
Why am I a little angry at Mitchell this morning? It’s because preseason’s over and we haven’t looked progressively better at the end of it. We were getting our trap split at the top of the key against Cleveland and we’re getting our trap split against Denver. We hadn’t figured out who the backup PG was then and we haven’t done it now. Kapono was supposed to be tightly integrated into the offense and instead he looks worse than last year. Aside from Bargnani’s added bulk and desire to improve this preseason’s given us very little. We might not look like deer caught in headlights anymore but we’re far from a functioning unit, especially the bench which I am terribly scared of. We might need to give this thing the first 10 games of the regular season before we can truly comment on what this team might be able to do. So yeah, preseason hasn’t ended, it sort of just began.
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The Raptors waived Jamal Sampson yesterday and I feel we hardly ever got to know him. It’s not like he was ever going to see the light of day in our rotation, at best he would’ve been a practice player and hopefully when Jawai comes back he can fill that void.
The league announced that they’ll be using instant replay to figure out if a shot was a 2 or a 3, where a foul was committed and game-clock malfunctions. How one defines “game-clock malfunctions” can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. For example, would TJ Ford’s layup against Atlanta would’ve counted? It appeared that he’d got the shot off in time but would they have considered the fact that the game-clock started a thousandth of a second early? Three words: Can of worms.
Just a quick thought, Ruben Patterson who looked like Kobe Bryant against us got cut by the Nuggets. I wouldn’t mind picking him up and see what he’s got left. He can’t be worse than Jamario Moon and looked like he could still slash to the rim and play defense. It’s good to have at least one guy on the team who starts hyperventilating if he doesn’t drive to the rim on every other possession. It might even give Jamario Moon a kick in the arse and signal a wake-up call of sorts for him. The guy’s been going through preseason like he’s stoned and needs to be reminded that we do have somebody who can take his minutes. I doubt it’s going to happen, you know, because Colangelo only signs character guys….
David Stern’s saying that by 2012 we’ll be playing regular season games in Europe. Any idea who some of the ideal teams for this experiment might be…oh yes, yes, you do. Stern keeps getting asked if he’s concerned about to players leaving heading to Europe for higher salaries and he finally said what everybody’s thinking, the economic model for basketball in Europe wouldn’t support the types of contracts players are allegedly receiving. The average attendance in Europe is 6000 and that’s hardly enough to pay for the ball boys. Then again there are deep pockets in Europe who wouldn’t mind owning a team in the loss just for kicks.
That’s it for me this morning. Raps Fan will follow up with a post of some sort later and remember that you can check out the latest web articles from around the internets and outernets on the front page of this site. For example this SLAM article about Denver’s trip to Edmonton.
71 Raps
“O’Neal’s (a) hard-working and tough” That’s debatable depending on your definition of the terms and how you view his past performance history. It’s known fact dude shrinks when the competition at his spot is at par or better.
Regular season games overseas? Whatta… I’m sure the players are going to love those 10+h flights for one game.
Ruben “the sex offender”? and BC? Highly unlikely.. although that guy can D up any position. And how many teams has he been on? Geez!
Dang man! Mateen got waived too. *tear*
Colangelo’s plan was to let Mitchell walk after his first season, but the team did so well he couldn’t for PR reasons.
When Mitchell is eventually let go or canned, it will be for the same reasons. Colangelo seems more concerned with the image portrayed, and not the functioning of the team. Plus the players like Sam, and Colangelo wouldn’t want a rebellion on his hands.
But who can blame Colangelo? The average fan sees wins and losses and doesn’t say things like “Mitchell is piss-poor with his substitution patterns” and instead says “Look at Mitchell yelling like a lunatic on the sidelines.” When the fans become more concerned with X’s and O’s, Colangelo would be forced to bring in a coach like this. Until that time, he has no excuse… and just has to wait for Mitchell to make a mistake.
And to answer your aside, Butch Carter never got another coaching gig because he was too dramatic and couldn’t portray himself as sane. Suing one of your ’star’ players is like a criminal record.
Spudz
http://eclectic-indulgence.blogspot.com
Arsenalist,
re: Butch Carter
In general, GM’s in the NBA are best described as ‘conservative’.
Who gets a head coach job in the NBA has very little to do with ‘who the best coaches are’ … not that Butch necessarily fits into this latter category.
Butch is viewed as a loose cannon; given what he did and said at the end of his tenure with the Raptors.
It’s doubtful he is going to get a 2nd shot at coaching his own team in the NBA.
Butch has been and will probably continue to be over-looked [black-listed?] by the conservative people in the NBA who would rather keep re-cycling the same sort of coach, again and again, instead of hiring someone new, e.g Bill Laimbeer, Michael Cooper, Rick Mahorn, Mario Elie, Patrick Ewing, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, etc.
Kudos to Joe Dumars [Michael Curry, 1st gig], Steve Kerr [Terry Porter, 2nd gig] and John Paxson [Vinny Del Negro, 1st gig] for setting a new path for their respective teams with new or almost new voices.
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re: Sam Mitchell
It’s a fundamental mistake to view this Raptors team as an extension of who Sam Mitchell was as NBA player.
THIS team, in this city, under the ownership of MLSE, reflects the Leadership of its (i) Board of Directors, and the (ii) President/GM, not its head coach. PERIOD.
When you watch the RaptorsTV produced segment concerning the team’s ‘2008 Draft Night War Room’ a clear picture develops regarding the hierarchy of the organization, on the Basketball Operations side of things.
Bryan Colangelo is the person responsible for the M.O./culture/persona/identity, etc. of this team, not Sam Mitchell.
Under Bryan Colangelo, first comes Maurizio Gherardini, Masai Ujiri, Jim Kelly and Bob Zuffaletto … then comes Sam Mitchell and his assistant coaches.
The way that Bryan Colangelo works is to develop a concensus first and then He Makes The Final Call on how things will work [or not] with the Basketball Operations Department of MLSE.
The decision not to exceed the Luxury Tax Threshold this season is Bryan Colangelo’s to make, not Sam Mitchell’s, and NOT the Board of Directors.
The decision to go with 13 active players this season is Bryan Colangelo’s call, not Sam Mitchell’s, nor the Board’s.
The decision to not re-sign C-Delfino [because he was able to sign a huge contract somewhere else]; to not re-sign J-Garbajosa; to not re-sign P-Brezec; to trade TJ-Ford, R-Nesterovic, M-Baston and the 2008 No. 17 [overall] Draft Pick to the Pacers in exchange for Jermaine O’Neal and the 2008 No. 41 [overall] Draft Pick; to sign Hassan Adams, Will Solomon and Roko Ukic … were all made by Bryan Colangelo, after a concensus was developed by Gherardini, Ujiri, Thomas, Zuffaletto, and himself, with input from Sam Mitchell [and his assistant coaches].
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If there’s a disconnect here, with this team, this season, it is going to show itself in …
A. The way they have played thus far in the pre-season/training camp;
B. How they open the regular season [e.g. during their first 11 games, check the schedule for details];
C. How they play during the extended stretch of games prior to the middle of December;
D. Whether they qualify for the Playoffs; and,
E. Whether they win a 1st Round Series …
and, if/when they perform below expectations [e.g. less than a .500 W-L mark] for a team that acquired the services of a $21 million per year player this summer, intends to (I) supercede the Philadelphia 76ers, (II) challenge the Boston Celtics for the Atlantic Division title this year and (III) WIN a 1st Round Playoff Series this year.
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During his tenure as a GM, in the NBA, Bryan Colangelo has employed several different head coaches to run the team which He manages,
i.e. Paul Westphal, Cotton Fitzsimmons, Danny Ainge, Scott Skiles, Frank Johnson, Mike D’Antoni, and Sam Mitchell.
The constant with a Bryan Colangelo managed NBA team, thus far, is not its Head Coach.
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re: So given what we’ve seen of Mitchell over the last four seasons, is he on the threshold of finally becoming a coach that can actually get the majority approval of fans? Remember, there has rarely been a time when this was actually true. My personal opinion is no, he won’t and I can point to his playbook, his arrogance, his refusal to admit that he’s wrong, his know-it-all attitude, his substitutions, his handing of rotations, allocating player time, resource utilization etc. As you can see the man has shown us a lot of his flaws over the last little while.
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The items cited there as ‘flaws’ may be just that, in the general population, but they are from being ‘flaws’ for a NBA head coach.
Sam Mitchell [and each NBA head coach for that matter] knows exactly what he’s doing and the reason he is doing it in the first place.
NBA head coaches do not see the game, or manage it, like a NBA fan does/would or a NBA writer/reporter/journalist/blogger/etc.
Do not make the mistake of thinking otherwise.
Khandor, while I somewhat agree with the “new voices” stance, I still shudder to think the league will soon be filled with ex-player coaches in their late 30s/early 40s.
As much as the league is using the NBDL to farm talent on the player side, I think it should be used to nurture coaching talent as well. Throw Vinny down there for a few seasons and see how he handles a squad. How you handle a group of (hopefully) hungry men trying to out-do one another in a gruelling league that features horrible road trips in half filled arenas will speak volumes.
I still believe Sam has matured into a decent coach, but on-the-job training isn’t the way to go. Bring in an ex-player in his late 40s that has paid his dues and you get automatic respect from players and fans alike.
AltRaps, I still don’t get how Alex English hasn’t gotten a coaching gig after suffering through the NBDL so I’m not sure doing anything in the NBDL will come close to guaranteeing you an NBA job. How many NBDL champion coaches do you see in the L?
khandor, I know this team is not an extension of Mitchell but its the least they could be. I feel that the one great quality of Mitchell hasn’t seeped down to the Raptors which is unfortunately When he got hired I thought he was brought in here to fix Vince the pussy and get this franchise playing like the mid 90’s Knicks, not the complete opposite. I think BC hasn’t given him his “type” of players but isn’t that what a coach’s job is? Mold players into what he wants them to be.
Here’s hoping for a fan owner like Marc Cuban to take over the Raptors so that we get the priorities of this organization straightened up.
Ahem Khandor… If you are going to make that argument for Coach Mitchell, then any criticism of yours directed towards GM Colangelo will fall on deaf ears…
As, I would suggest, Brian Colangelo [and each NBA GM for that matter] knows exactly what he is doing and the reason he is doing it in the first place.
NBA GM’s do not see the game, or manage it, like a NBA fan does/would or a NBA writer/reporter/journalist/blogger/etc.
Do. Not. Make. The. Mistake. Of. Thinking. Otherwise.
Which begs the question: what IS Brian doing? Running a profitable cash cow for MLSE or trying to build a contender? Because from where I stand, it’s not the latter. And please don’t say both. Cuz you gotta spend money to make money.. ala Celtics, Lakers, Mavs, Kings (should have made the Finals). Not throw it out the window ala JO.
Well, if you have to spend money to make money, then the answer HAS to be both, or neither…
No cash cow without contender, is basically what ‘gotta spend to make’ means.
i have to agree with altraps, smitch was an assistant, for a season (i believe) and graduated to head coach with very little time spent behind the bench. although he has gotten better, you don’t had the coaching reigns to someone who’s learning on the spot. unlike curry in detroit who was on the sidelines and was groomed.
as far as butch, i heard that his rift with grunwald was so big, that grunwald told him he wont get another coaching job in the league, and followed through on it. again, take that the way you want, but GMs stick together (garbo not getting another contract when he can clearly contribute at this level).
Man, if Sam sneezes in a politically incorrect way he could be in big trouble. 33million+ people in Canada with 1 team. Problems can get quite amplified. 6 Million in Arizona to watch Phoenix. I think with 33Millioin people the Microscope watching Sam will be immense. I am not a huge Sam Mitchell fan. He has his strengths, but needs help with his weakness… ie. Crunch Time Play Calling!! Sam is still in Diapers when it comes to 4th Q Crunch Time.
When the leaders of the Raptors F*#kUp they need to turn somewhere for a vote of confidence. Bosh isn’t experienced enough to draw from his ‘Well of Confidence’ yet . When Bosh gets ruffled he panics & turns to his jump shot. You need confidence to knock down any shot! Guess what… if the Leader is Ruffled and the Coach is flaying his arms yelling, the team gets ruffled and we ‘Shit the Bed’! We don’t have a veteran player who will make the Team Believe they can win a close game when the team is acting like a bunch of little school girls.
I think Sam is a good coach, until crunch time. He has learning ahead of him…. But in the history of most Sports… when the team convectively plays bad the coach will get the Hook! But man… he’s the Best dressed Coach in the NBA!!! Quote From film Casablanca… ‘Play it again Sam!’ (or maybe a new play)
agreed papijulio. smitch should have done what rivers did and brought in guys to help him where he is lacking, and give them the control to do what they are there for. i doubt that changes.
Oh, I would say the Raps are a fat cash cow without being contenders. The fact “fans” perceive it to be a contender, is another story. But it’s what makes them a cash cow, IMO.. not to mention, like Julio said, when you are ticket in town..err..country, it makes it that much easier.
Bringing in a washed up former all star and cling all hopes of making the playoffs or making it past the 1st round, is not, IMO, what contenders do.
flux = preacher
khan – don’t you have your own blog?
maybe we’re confusing ‘contender’ with ‘competitive?’ i don’t expect them to contend for the title, not this year, and likely not next…but i do expect them to be competitive with the majority of teams in the league, and i do expect to see incremental improvements year-by-year. i don’t want them to go out & blow their wad on the remote chance they could land the requisite superstars that would put them over the top, if that means a 5-yr rebuilding takes place immediately after. maybe it’s a question of priorities – as a fan, would you be willing to go through significant rebuilding period (say, 3-5 years) for the chance at a title this year? some would, others wouldn’t. i like the idea that they on a long-term plan of building towards being a year-in, year-out legit contender, and generally speaking, unless teams get extremely lucky in the draft (spurs & duncan) or have GMs from other teams willing to give away HoFers for peanuts (mchale), building such a team takes time. maybe we need to just suppress our id a little, and realize that while they certainly aren’t championship calibre, at least it looks like they have a plan that will eventually get them there (and hopefully ‘eventually’ is within the next few years).
What do you mean, RapsFan? I’m not that bright.
Have you seen the poll on here? Methinks people are thinking JO is the last piece of the puzzle. You know.. 2nd in the east, NBA Finals, contenders.. all that jazz.
Arsenalist, funny how you should bring up Alex, as I was going to reference him in my comment but backed it off. I do know for a fact that he was knocking on doors 2 years ago in the offseason and my understanding is he made it on some shortlists. Personally, I don’t know if he tried this year but if he did and those others beat him out, I’m shocked. Alex is a loyal guy who signed a contract to work with this club, so I can see him not pushing the envelope just out of his nature. Plus, of course, we are speaking blindly in that he could have been offered something and turned it down.
Still, years ago college was considered the breeding ground for NBA coaches and I’d guess that it was split down the middle with respect to success and failure. Personally if I were in the market for a coach, I’d rather pluck someone with a proven track record of handling all aspects of the position not someone who is just going to reference what happened when he played.
Yertu…would love to hear how/why you think this team is on the road to building a truly competitive team, 1 through 12/15. We are renting an overpriced player for 2 years, have to then re-sign Bosh who, one would imagine, will be looking for what JO is getting, and then decide what to do with Andrea, assuming he has marginal improvement. 3 years from now our only staple will be Jose Calderon. Love the guy, but you can’t build a team around him.
You have to gamble that JO will take less (a LOT less) if he is to re-sign here, otherwise you parlay him into a few (lesser?) pieces. To me THAT is when the rebuilding starts. In 2-3 years you are potentially looking at 6-9 new guys.
Since Bryan took control we have had cap room, a number one pick, and a trade for an ex-allstar. Going into this season we are faced with possibly more uncertainty and trepidation than any previous season.
Y.D. – please tell me what we are competing for? What’s the difference between competitive and contender? Aren’t all the teams in the L competitive?
And I don’t want to repeat anything AltRaps said, but would like to know how we have taken steps forward as opposed to backwards over the past few seasons?
for the record, i wasn’t a big fan of the JO deal when it went down, for a few reasons (health, $, using all our assets to shore up one position when nothing’s been resolved w/ the wings, etc.). and for sure, his contract is prohibitive, but i’d be shocked if he was to re-sign w/ TO, and if he did, it would have to be for substantially less (i, like most, am anticipating modest numbers this year). but the deal is off the books when bosh is due to be re-signed, and he can either be moved at next year’s deadline for teams also looking to free up space, or simply left to walk, leaving some $$ for both bosh & perhaps a pick-up or two (& no, i’m under no delusions that they’ll be in the running for any of the front-line FAs – bosh excluded, though you never know).
so, why am i optimistic? i dunno, really, i just get a sense that the raps are more than a money-maker for MLSE, and that BC is in it to win it. maybe my faith is misguided, but after a while, doesn’t it get a little depressing continuously looking for reasons to feel negative? i’ll be the first in line to criticize, when i feel it’s warranted (& there’s often lots to choose from), but the season hasn’t started yet, and many of us seem ready to toss away the season, either because of the poor pre-season, or because they don’t have a legit shot to win it all. if fans only cheered for teams with such a legit shot, we’d all be cheering for 8 teams (if that).
holy fuck, maybe the blog should be renamed ‘anti-raptor republic.’ does it make it easier to always see the negative? i guess that way, when/if they struggle, you can always boast about how you (and you alone) saw it coming.
only in theory are ‘all’ teams competing for a title, and no, there are a significant number of teams that would not be described as ‘competetive.’
is your theory that right now, this year, all 30 teams have the same objective, and will settle for nothing less? what kind of fantasy is that?
‘Since Bryan took control we have had cap room, a number one pick, and a trade for an ex-allstar. Going into this season we are faced with possibly more uncertainty and trepidation than any previous season.’
just to play devil’s advocate – BC inherited a pretty shit team, with one bona fide potential star, and a whole lotta pieces that weren’t worth much. jose has developed into much more than (almost) anyone could have guessed (though i’m sure khandor will remind all that he predicted this success 8 years ago or something). yes, absolutely, he did have the #1 overall pick, in what many consider a draft that lacked a true #1 pick (in stark contrast to years prior & post). and many believe he made the wrong selection. perhaps he did – bargs certainly hasn’t done anything to make anyone think he’ll ever be more than a marginal contributor at this level. and yes, he traded for what may well be a washed-up, injury-prone, overpaid duplicate of bosh. my question is – what can be done about all that now? what exacly is the point of continually rehashing events that cannot be altered? is this blog just a place for like-minded pessimists to gather & congratulate each other on every new hole or flaw that surfaces with this team? wow, sounds like fun? i mean, actually discussing the team & the players/coaches & the games isn’t nearly as fun as second-guessing 3-yr old decisions. and nowhere near as fun as developing theories that will never have the chance to be tested (like khandor’s repeated contentions that hump, robojoe & moon are really, truly superstar-calibre players, but who are simply being ‘misused.’
I think people look at the Portland Trailblazers and see what they’ve been able to accomplish through clever drafting, good signings and a proactive GM and want to replicate the success. That team has done a complete 180 from the jailblazer days and we’re trying to do a 180 from VC’s last days. It took the blazers 3 years to completely revamp and I think we should give BC the same time.
I got no answer to AltRaps saying that we’re not building a truly competitive team because we’re not. Our bench is a joke and we have some very risky investments here and we’re hoping for things to work out and people to have career years. yertu should understand that perspective.
feb 09 will be 3 years riterite, what do you see happening from now till then? yes, they have improved from 3 years ago, but how much more progress will we be seeing?
flux, i didn’t finish that post, i meant flux = preacher, raps fan = choir, as in you’re preaching to the choir :)
Lately I’ve been wondering if Sam’s rough and sometimes bullying behavior (as seem in his public interaction with reporters) isn’t the cause of some of our players seemingly low self-esteem. His way seems abusive: get mad, scold, back off, praise, repeat.
It’s all about choice really. Not being negative.. being realistic. You want to call this team competitive, be my guest. You want to be optimistic and then (perhaps) frustrated when they don’t make the playoffs or get bounced out of the 1st round, be my guest.
It’s been 15 years this franchise has been around… we have been to the second round how many times? We are the Clippers/Wolves of the East. When do we get tired of being “competitive” and demand a contender? The “fans”/people make the franchise what it is. You keep going to games with a smile on your face while they are putting out a sub-par product and being profitable, guess what? They keep laughing all the way to the bank. You know what “fans” in other cities do? They stop going to games, they protest in the effing streets, they don’t renew their season tickets. But that will never happen here because optimism is running ridiculously high regardless of what’s on the floor.
Great points, Rite, except that he has had 3 years. We should be optimistic knowing we have potentially 3 AllStars on this team, but the trepidation for me comes with the dramatic drop off in talent and the lack of space to move financially.
Yertu, I reference the past only because it dictates our future. Every body has 20/20 hindsight and I’m not trying to drum up the past to stir the negativity pot. Even if I just look at this offseasons moves, I wonder if we really addressed our glaring weaknesses. Even if we didn’t and we had the ability to add something during the season to bolster, say, our perimeter defence, I’d be content. We don’t and looking at our tradeable assets, we don’t have much to move. In fact, if we were to move bodies to attract a solid piece, we would probably need to do a package deal, therefore lessening our depth even further, due to the NBAs trade rules.
In a for-the-future mindset, I have to wonder if for the pieces we moved in order to get JO and therefore his salary, if we couldn’t have brought in 2-3 players to spread the depth and possibly address more needs. While rebounding was a need last year, it was far from our only one and nor was it one that should have a $20mil price tag attached to it.
riterite – ‘Our bench is a joke and we have some very risky investments here and we’re hoping for things to work out and people to have career years.’ you just described the raps, & 75% of the league.
yeah, the bench is, uh, not so good. but of the 7 guys who costitute ‘the bench,’ isn’t the expectation that only 3-4 will see significant PT, and generally speaking that PT will be with 3-4 starters on the floor?
i understand others have a different perspective, and truly, i’m fine with it…just can’t understand the appeal of continually bemoaning the moves that have been made. BC’s defenders (which i don’t necessarily consider myself to be a part of) like to point out the turnaround in the team since he took over, and his detractors point to the fact that they haven’t really made any significant strides towards becoming a legit contender, and to them, don’t see that happening anytime soon. for me, i see something different…teams in general will always be in flux, and the raps are no different, so maybe i just assume that by the time the ony two truly integral pieces (bosh & jose) are in their prime & ready to lead a championship calibre team, the ‘right’ pieces will be around them. last i checked though, i can’t see into the future, and my time-machine is busted, so i can’t go back and change anything. the present is all we can really concern ourselves with.
RapsFan – i think there is a big division in the republic. See that poll? I think a very small minority sees what’s really going on.. others are buying beer and jerseys. I guess it’s all good, as long as, there is an NBA game in town. This team making the playoffs and all is good in RaptorLand. Is stop caring about making the playoffs… ooh I dunno…10 years ago.
Not necessarily the case here anymore Flux. I cancelled my season tickets after being a seatholder since day one and only missing one game in those years. I personally know 12 others that did the same, due to either the 17% increase in cost, the on-court performance, or both.
I’d also say we aren’t the Clippers of the East. Even in our recent non-playoff years we were just on the cusp..ish. Granted, given the talent in the east recently…..
alt – agree. like i said earlier, my biggest beef with the JO trade was that they had to give up so much to get 1 guy back, when they were equally (if not moreso) in need of shoring up the wing position. but let’s say they make a different deal, and maybe hold onto rasho, trading only ford, filler & the pick for a (hopefully) less-impactful wing. does rasho or bargs start at 5? does CD still leave, or do the raps have the $$ to re-sign him (assuming they wanted to all along)? there’s still the issue of a back-up PG – would there be $$ left for something better than they ended up with?
what surprised me when i watched the draft ‘08 thing on rapstv was how interested they were in jawai. i was hoping for CDR (but to be honest, whether he ever does anything is a crapshoot), not to fill the wing position right away, but maybe as a guy off the bench who can push moon. speaking of which…i wonder who much of our consternation with the bench is due to moon’s apparent lack of improvement (actually, he’s on his way to a bargnani-like sophomore regression)? i thought he was going to come to camp hungry, and give the starters that athleticism they need, but man, what a dissappointment. i know it’s not his fault, he’s just not being used at the right position (he’d be better at the 2, right?)…but still.
Dan H,
If you re-read carefully what I’ve written, and then re-read what you’ve written, you should be able to see that the only part of what you’ve witten here with which I would choose to find fault/adjust/remove is the specific line that says,
“Ahem Khandor… If you are going to make that argument for Coach Mitchell, then any criticism of yours directed towards GM Colangelo will fall on deaf ears…”
as anyone who thinks that I believe Bryan Colangelo could correctly be described as,
“an NBA GM who does NOT know EXACTLY what he’s doing, at ALL times”,
is completely missing the boat, in terms of understanding properly my position, concerning this specific topic, regarding the past, present and future situations with the Toronto Raptors.
The fact is, Sir … I agree 100% with the notion that Bryana Colangelo knows exactly what he’s doing, as the GM of the Raptors and that so does Sam Mitchell, as its Head Coach … in sharp contrast, perhaps, to many of the teams fans who are hyper-active within the on-line basketball community, as writers, reporters, journalists, bloggers, commentators, etc.
What’s in doubt, from MPOV, is whether [or not] ‘the WHAT’ & ‘the HOW’, currently at work with this franchise, is ever going to succeed in building a NBA Championship team for the Toronto Raptors.
This is a slightly different concern, if you don’t mind me saying so. :)
Competitive means the team has a chance of winning if it plays well in any given game and it makes a difference to people like me who pay to see games in person. If the Raptors were like the Sonics or Grizzlies I would not pay to see as many games as I’m paying for this season. I know from various posts, flameouts, etc. on Arsenalist that both Khandor and Fluxland think being satisfied with a competitive team is a cop-out. For them it’s championship or bust and that’s fair. But since basketball is entertainment for me, I’m prepared to be entertained even if the results of a given game or season don’t match my hopes. Winning matters enough to influence how I spend my money to see basketball but not so much that I get depressed every time a team underachieves. And not so much that everything the team does has to be cast negatively. Even if the Raptors suck this year, someone will be playing awesome ball and I’ve got a TV.
Now before someone tells me I’m just getting used by Colangelo and MLSE as they churn out a mediocre product, let me say this: another season like last year and I buy fewer tickets to games and start trying to interest my kid in soccer not basketball. What’s more, if this team actually becomes a contender, MLSE will see more of my money coming their way.
At the end of the day, I strongly suspect that Colangelo and MLSE realize the Raptors aren’t the Leafs. They’re more like the Jays. Sure there’s a fan base whatever the team’s record but they only make good money if the product is good. Right now, I’m not sure the product is that good but it could be. I’d agree to an extent with the posters who say management is profiting from a perception of the team that doesn’t match the reality. Of course, since we haven’t seen a meaningful game this year (let alone 82 of them) who knows what the reality is. But criticisms of management for not paying the tax, for instance, are misplaced. It would be stupid for BC to strong-arm MLSE into the tax right now. I bet even he doesn’t know how good (or bad) this team is. Why waste money. But if we’re hovering around the middle of the pack in December or January and an athletic wing becomes available because his team is dying, well BC might actually have a business case for going into tax territory – i.e. if the team goes deep into the playoffs, MLSE gets to reap financial rewards that outweigh the tax.
So I’m with Yertu, lay off a bit guys. The season’s young. There’s a fair amount of possibility in the air for this team and plenty of time in January to rip on management, Bargnani, they guy in section 310 who’s too enthusiastic, Bosh’s youtube offerings or whatever else is actually to blame for the tragedy of a .500 season. And flux, by then you can tell me “I told you so” while I hawk tickets on e-bay.
Yertu, I was so pumped that CDR was falling in the draft and when he fell to the second round I was praying that BC moves up in the draft and grabs him or even Bill Walker at that point. When he stayed idle and CDR kept dropping I was sure we were going to pick him but alas, the Nets got him one pick before us. And we took a guy who can’t make it past media day.
That did not make any sense: we needed an athletic defender/slasher and CDR with a second-round pick on a non-guaranteed contract would’ve been sweeeeet. Just an example of the passiveness that BC has shown at times. I for one think his refusal to make a trade at the deadline the last two years came back to bite us in the playoffs. He had a chance to strengthen the squad and picked up Brezec? C’mon. I’m not in the war-room but so I don’t now what was on the table but when you 100% know exactly what your team needs in the post-season, you have to make a move. Unless he had his eye on JO the entire time and didn’t want to take on salary at the trade deadline….so many thoughts.
AltRaps- now that’s a loyal fan. WOW! And kudos to you and the ones you mentioned for sending the message.
Yeah, talent in the East and some teams seriously under-performing helped the cause. Put our team in the West…well, you know.
Arsenalist, I hope to God you never see the 2008 Draft Special on RaptorsTV….you might be tempted to do harmful things.
Sam, I’m with you but sadly have to say I reached that very tipping point. Years ago I was never very critical of moves made by management because I was giving them some room to work. We rarely had cap room, our picks were mid-first and second rounders, etc. Lately we have seen our draft picks moved for questionable acquisitions and some cap space dwindled to just enough to buy a used Fiat. I do commend you in that you are taking the right steps: they want you back, then they should prove to you that they are worthy of your time and money. For me, I still want to see them strive for a championship, but the moves in the past 5 or so years don’t seem warranted for me paying the 4th highest price in the league for where I sat. I could see the Lakers and Spurs for less money, which is a sad statement.
I get very little satisfaction out of “I told you so”. None to be exact. And it’s not championship or bust..but I also get zero satisfaction out of knowing that this team scares no one. I get little satisfaction out of having to wonder are we going to be able to beat any team on any given night. I get little satisfaction out of crunching numbers with 2 weeks to go before the playoffs, wondering IF this team will even make the playoffs. To lose a round to a good team, while giving them all we got and fighting hard is one thing. But to hand over games and play like garbage is another. We should have beat NJ and we should have been approximately 10K times more competitive vs ORL.
Cast negatively? Dude, it is what it is. If you wanna colour everything pink and baby this team and said it’s ok, participation is what matters, go ahead. I gave that up a long time ago, it’s time to raise the bar and expect/demand more.
yertu,
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re: khan – don’t you have your own blog?
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Yes, I do … which is a frequent stop for some of the good folks who contribute here, on a regular basis, not that you would know very much about that, at this point.
Unlike certain other irresponsible bloggers/web site operators, who shall remain nameless …
none of Arsenalist, AltRaps, Raps Fan, and Dinosty or Michael Grange [etc.] engage in the throwing of venomous insults towards others who take the time to contribute ‘comments’ to their blogs; nor, as far as I know, have they made false statements about any of the individuals who post messages on their blogs.
In general, it’s a joy and a privilege to have the opportunity to work with fine bloggers like this, who do a terrific job of presenting their ideas/opinions about the Raptors while allowing others to do likewise, whether in agreement with those individuals or not.
IMO, certain others could learn a great deal from them.
I remember that spat over on… that blog (you didn’t name him, so I will respect that, in case privacy is preferred).
I think you may have caught him on a bad day or touched a sensitive subject, because in general I find him to be very conversational and generally accepting of others’ ideas in his blog.
Unless of course you were referring to something else, in which case, I withdraw my comment. :)
Re: “This is a slightly different concern, if you don’t mind me saying so.”
Not at all. I misunderstood some previous comments of yours. Apologies.
Flux/Alt Raps,
I’m definitely not saying that just showing up is what matters, just that something less than a championship is acceptable and persuades me to part with some of my hard-earned cash (and emotional balance). But I haven’t been shelling out for that long and unless we get Kobe, no one should be paying more for Raptors seats than Lakers’.
On the negativity point, THE SEASON HAS NOT STARTED. Barring significant injuries I believe the worst-case scenario still has the Raptors in the playoffs. Not sure they get a mini-pack out of me next year if that’s all that happens but anyway. The point is, specific criticism – things like our perimeter defence still sucks – are fine . That kind of thing is not negativity, that’s just reality and a good talking point on a blog like this. But sweeping statements need some games played behind them – things like we’ve taken steps backwards over the past few seasons. Frankly, if last year’s obviously-flawed team got to play in the Titanic for another year, it might have cracked 50 wins. We might take an actual step backwards this year, I can’t deny that, but surely we all need to see some games first. I’m actually a bit pessimistic about this year (or at least the first half of it) but I can see a way in which this team makes a leap forward. All of which may be meaningless given that Lebron James plays in the league. . .
Dan H,
No problem, from MPOV.
It’s my experience that those who cast ‘insults’ towards others present themselves in a poor light to begin with, and are the first to sever lines of communication when something does not go their own way.
I prefer to take a different approach.
Oday, people … now please explain to me in excruciating detail why did BC get $20+Mil JO for the next two years??
I gave my thoughts on why in the previous topic thread, now will anybody/everybody of greater bball intellect please establish once and for all … why JO??
Thanx …..
Sam, agreed…to an extent. I have seen enough preseason games to have concern. Not going to factor in the “it’s just preseason” stuff since we are all smart adults here. Beyond that, I do have concern in seeing some of the same detriments that plagued us last year. I’m not overly convinced in seeing JOs game that he will be able to give us a quality game night in, night out. If he is just “good” for 50% of our games, what does that mean to our win total? He had a great trip to LA, but other than that…
I am patient. I will give he and Bosh time to gel.
I agree that bemoaning a roster before any games are played is folly. That isn’t the case anymore. After watching them in preseason, how many on our roster would you deem ready to start the year on a good level? Bosh, Calderon, probably Bargs, Parker….anybody else? That in itself is somewhat disheartening.
I like this AltRaps guy. That is where I am at. That is what I am saying. I said the same thing on the Arsenalist. I think we have seen enough, thus far, to have very little confidence in how deep this team will go.
Prove me or my opinions wrong, Raptors. There will be no one happier then me that I was wrong.
FAQ, many of us have been wondering the same thing. Some will say cap space.. but if i remember correctly, we could have achieved the same goal without getting him. 45 M over 2 years we are spending on a guy that may not play 60 games. It’s funny how Bird and BC are looking at the same player and see completely different things. We’ll see who the fool is.
Alt Raps, it is concerning and that’s why I tend toward pessimism but, at the risk of revealing I’m not an adult, the fact it is just preseason does matter to a degree. I can see we have backup PG problems from preseason. I can see that Bargs will probably be better this year (don’t ask me how much better). I cannot see how monstrous Bosh will be this year but nothing in the preseason tells me he won’t make another leap. JO? I don’t think anyone can tell what he’ll be like logging starter’s minutes on a club with short rotation until he starts logging starter’s minutes on a club with a short rotation. So if we add JO to your list of Bosh, Jose, Parker and Bargs and then get a bit lucky with our platoon of SF’s and our bench . . . . damn, I’ve talked myself into it – Raptors go 20-0 out of the gate.
And Sam, you are right. It is conceivable that by the 2nd half of the season they may be gelling (”Are you gelling?”) better then now. But just like the worry with Jose burning out, playing 32plus a game, one has to wonder in what shape JO’s knees will be by then and, for that matter, by the playoffs. The NBA season is long and the travel taxing on the body. And this is barring injuries.. he’s already had a sore back/knee/hip/who the heck knows what. That has to be an alarm of some kind.
Again I may be negative/pessimistic, but believe you me… come 6:59 vs the Sixers (or whatever time actual tip-off is) I’ll be screaming LET”S GO RAPTORS *tunder stix* LET’S GO RAPTORS *thunder stix*. I am not kidding you, things get wild around here game nights. I can’t sit down for the 1st 5 minutes and may hands are sweating.
Two points.
1. A description which puts my thinking into the category of ‘Championship or Bust’ … does not represent my perspective with any degree of accuracy.
2. Just because it’s necessary for some/many/most/others to see a whole lot of something first [e.g. likes regular season] before they can make an accurate judgment about that thing’s actual quality, relative to the quality of other similar things …
does not make it incumbent on others/those few who may not necessarily need to see something for a number of times prior to forming an accurate assessment about that same thing’s quality, relative to the quality of other similar things.
Three examples …
i) Just because you might be someone who needs to date a lot of women before selecting the one you are [in fact] going to marry, then build a life with together, stay with for 50 years, and then come what may … does not mean that someone else cannot possibly accomplish these same things without first dating scores of women and upon only seeing/meeting their eventual mate for the very first time …
and it has nothing whatsoever to do with having a crystal ball or not.
ii) When you do an IQ Test, frequently there is a question which asks you to choose from pictures A, B, C, D, and E, “The two images which are exactly the same?”
While it may be necessary for some/many/most to review all five pictures, individually, several times each before making the correct selection, for others it is not this way at all … as they can, in fact, arrive at the correct answer by examining as few as only 2 (or 3 or 4) of the pictures one time only …
and it has nothing whatsoever to do with having a crystal ball or not.
iii) When asked to solve the riddle of a mixed-up rubic’s cube … while there are some who need to take repeated attempts to get it ‘Right’, or can never get it at all [like me for instance], regardless how many attempts are made … there are others who can, quite literally, solve the cube on their very 1st attempt …
and it has nothing whatsoever to do with having a crystal ball or not.
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Each of us is different from the other. :-)
The other thing that puzzles me is this quote I read at the doctors office today in an “old” issue of SI:
“I’m not brought in to be the new face of the team; I’m brought in to take the team to the next level,” says O’Neal. “It’s Chris’s team, and I’m not coming in to step on his feet or [coach] Sam Mitchell’s feet. But I’m not just trying to fit in, either. I’m trying to be dominant.”
I’m don’t care about that next level stuff. That I am placing on Jose. (got rid of TJ for him and paid him well). It’s those last two sentences I am having trouble with.
Also, it came with a large picture of him with a tat that read: The Year of the Resurrection. Does anyone know if he just got that of if it’s old?
I think Khandor just called me a dumb slut
And Flux I respected you until you started talking about thunder stix . . . that’s troubling, very troubling
*pulls out thunder stick and blasts Sam over head*
LOL.. I actually own zero Raptor paraphernalia. Never seen anything I liked or would considered owning. That was just for effect, I do actually shout and clap tho/yell at TV/pull my hair/turn it off when things are going wrong/turn it back on. OR do nothing at all but pump my fist or shake my head..just depends on the night I guess and how much energy I have.
Khandor, I am very disappointed in your inability to solve a Rubic’s cube. :P
re: why was JO brought to this team right now
Based on what I’ve heard thus far straight from the move of Bryan Colangelo … on RaptorsTV:
i) The Basketball Brain-trust identified the needs of the team, as follows:
* To win a 1st Round Playoff Series
* Improved Rebounding … to help Chris Bosh
* Improved Interior Defense … to help Chris Bosh
* Up-graded Low Post Presence … to help Chris Bosh
ii) The asset which this team decided to shop during the off-season was TJ Ford … on account of the Ford/Calderon mess last year;
iii) Of the deals they were offerred the one which satisfied those three (3) needs, simultaneously, from the Raptors’ perspective, was the one for Jermaine O’Neal;
iv) Nesterovic + Baston + flipping the No. 17 Pick for the No. 41 were included to make it happen;
v) At the time of the Draft they had already determined that Garbajosa, Delfino, and Brezec would not be returning this season and that adding Adams, Ukic and Solomon was a strong possibility …
* Which would bring the roster to 13 active players
* Take them over the Salary Cap, and
* Keep them under the Luxury Tax Threshold
That’s the Raptors’ take.
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Fundamentally, I disagree with the notion that:
i) The O’Neal/Ford trade effectively addresses those three (3) specific needs for this team, this year; and,
ii) That those three needs were, in fact, the ones which SHOULD have been addressed by this team during this off-season …
although, I can certainly appreciate what the Raptors were attempting to accomplish with this move, based on their self-assessment of their team.
What this deal signified to me was the lack of faith the team had in the ability of Chris Bosh, Rasho Nesterovic, Andrea Bargnani, Kris Humphries, Jorge Garbajosa, Maceo Baston and Primoz Brezec, as the front-court players needed to carry them further in the NBA Playoffs.
Sam,
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re: I think Khandor just called me a dumb slut
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Would never ever do that, my friend.
Afterall … I’m the one who hasn’t ever solved the cube [Example ii], not you, I’m sure.
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Flux,
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re: Khandor, I am very disappointed in your inability to solve a Rubic’s cube.
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Alas, none of us are ever gifted in each and every area of life. :-)
Agreed, Sam. I think, if I was pressured, that it will take 20-30 games for JO to get back to anywhere close to his normal self…and by then if we have won 15-20 games, we are in great shape, all things being equal.
My concern, as Khandor has pointed out elsewhere on the interwebs, is our schedule out of the gate. We can’t afford too many stumbles and I’m not entirely convinced that some of the stuff I saw in preseason (across the board) is fixable in 6 days of one a days.
My comment was supposed to have a :) after it, Kha.
;) Here I thought you had that thing solved at age 6 while sleeping. :P
* smiley face… they are not showing up I guess. : )
Thanx, khandor … Your thinking is somewhat in line with my speculations, but we can never be certain of BC’s thinking to bring in JO.
If JO was brought in to help Bosh from double teaming and work on the boards, but he fails, I wonder what happens next. JO’s and Bosh’s contracts are up in 2010, and I assume JO will take a pay cut while Bosh’s salary skyrockets into the $20+Mil region.
I can imagine Bosh abandoning the Raptors come 2010 because the team could be a shamble after this season. Raptors are still ‘under construction’ with it’s new roster, and could descend into ‘under destruction’ if a few adversities crop up.
This edition of the unproven Raptors looks like it’s on the cusp of chaos .. let’s pray for miracles ..!!!
I will go on record saying that Chris Bosh will not leave this organization in the next 5 years unless the team trades him.
Period.
Flux,
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re: My comment was supposed to have a after it, Kha.
Here I thought you had that thing solved at age 6 while sleeping.
* smiley face… they are not showing up I guess. : )
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Not to worry, at all.
Although I fail miserably with (ii), above, some would say that, thus far, I’ve had more than my fair share of success with both (i) & (iii). :)
Each and every one of us has specific strengths, as well as holes in our respective game’s.
AltRaps,
I share that exact same sentiment, re: Chris Bosh’s future with the Toronto Raptors.
tj the lil cunt is gone….REJOICE!
I think Pacers fans are rejoicing (and I would have kept Jose)
Its a thoroughly-neurotic thread all its own, but I don’t share AltRaps’ and Khandor’s optimism about Bosh staying. Simply put, I think Bosh will get comparable money offers from a number of teams in summer ‘10 and then it boils down to where he can play his best basketball. Right now, that location looks like a decaying rust belt city on Lake Erie. Seriously, Bosh + Lebron = awesome and I’m not sure anyone can compete with that.
Sam,
In order to win a championship with the Cavs … Lebron will need to have more than just CB4 at his side, given the overall strength of certain other teams in the NBA, now and at that point in time, should it ever come to pass.
History says that very few superstars in this League ever change teams of their own volition, during their year of UFA.
IMO, one of the oversights others make, quite frequently, when evaluating the ’strength’ of their own favourite team is to not compare it directly [and indirectly, as well] to each of the other top teams in the NBA at the same time.
It’s only when you do that … that you can truly evaluate where your team stands, at a given point in time, re: success & failure; and, the likelihood of ever winning the NBA Championship.
khan – you continue to impress with your breadth & depth of knowledge in all matters, raptors-related or not. and it’s not just that your level of expertise is so broad, but that you’ve never had a theory or opinion that isn’t spot-on. bravo, sir!
The idea isn’t to impress, Sir. In part, it’s to share, like we learned in kindergarten, and to Know THE Difference. Sentences #8 & #13 are amongst my all-time favourites.
Kahdor,
I’m sorta new to this site, (although read a few of the satellite sights). I gotta tell you it’s an impressive sight and will now become a regular site for me to read and share some thoughts. GREAT JOB TO ALL INVOLVED!
Except for the fact that you, Khandor, post way too much, and say way too much. You take the enjoyment away. Keep your posts crisp on on topic. You say you got you own blog- is it as long and boring as your comments here?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure you like the Raptors and consider yourself a fan. But you are quite the pessimist? The show hasn’t started and you are writing them off.
If you must respond, keep it brief, will ya.
Tinman,
A.O.K. :)
LOL
a little more quiet from you, and i’d have to think you were wise…
A little more noise from you, and …